What is the most powerful level 1 spy build?

[Melcar]

As a continuation or evolution of this (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?625055-What-is-the-most-powerful-level-1-fighting-build) thread, I have need for the hive mind collective yet again. This time its to build some level 1 information gatherers.


Ok, so I'm again looking for help creating some level 1 minions:

These are the information gatherers of the spy corps. As quintessential spies, they are tasked with gathering, processing, and analyzing security information from around Faerûn, primarily using human intelligence (HUMINT). By means of interpersonal contact they apply clandestine espionage methods, to obtain information which an adversary would not want the entity conducting the espionage to have. This usually involves accessing the place where the desired information is stored or accessing the people who know the information and having them divulge it through subterfuge.

The rules are:
1) Race must be from PHB (or LA 0 from FR)
2) Alignment must be LE
3) Can use content from all official publications, including Dragon and Dungeon Magazines
4) Normal NPC WBL
5) Uses Standard Array for stats.

I'm aiming at maxing out Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information and Sense Motive, but any suggestions for alternative or better skills for an information gatherer are highly appreciated.

So far I am looking into the variant expert class from UA... I can choose all the relevant skills yet gain a feat for stuff like Skill focus or what not. But just like last time, this seems almost too straight forward. So, hive mind, what would be some great builds for a level 1 spy/agent?


Thanks!

[Doctor Despair]

It's a shame you're banning Changelings from consideration; they are pretty ideal for this.

[Maat Mons]

Even without Changelings, there's still the Change Shape (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070314a) ACF for Egoist. Doesn't put you in a very good spot skills-wise though.

[Melcar]

It's a shame you're banning Changelings from consideration; they are pretty ideal for this.

DM's banned setting specific things from Eberron... I can ask, but will probably get a no. Furthermore, setting specific LA 0 race from Faerun might be cool though...

[Doctor Despair]

DM's banned setting specific things from Eberron... I can ask, but will probably get a no. Furthermore, setting specific LA 0 race from Faerun might be cool though...

They're also in Races of Destiny

[liquidformat]

So a few ideas:

Star Elf Bard 8 Str 10 Dex 12 (10) Con 12 Int 9 Wis 13 (15) Cha Precocious Apprentice (Alter Self) Spells: Detect Magic, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic; add disguise and perform into the group of skills. Will have to think about equipment but bards make pretty good spies plus being a musician can help get them in places through the front door they might not be able to sneak into.

Gray Elf Beguiler 8 (6) Str 10 (12) Dex 12 (10) Con 12(14) Int 9 Wis 13 Cha Master Manipulator (should be helpful for a spy) will have to think more about this one too.

[Melcar]

So a few ideas:

Star Elf Bard 8 Str 10 Dex 12 (10) Con 12 Int 9 Wis 13 (15) Cha Precocious Apprentice (Alter Self) Spells: Detect Magic, Message, Prestidigitation, Read Magic; add disguise and perform into the group of skills. Will have to think about equipment but bards make pretty good spies plus being a musician can help get them in places through the front door they might not be able to sneak into.

Gray Elf Beguiler 8 (6) Str 10 (12) Dex 12 (10) Con 12(14) Int 9 Wis 13 Cha Master Manipulator (should be helpful for a spy) will have to think more about this one too.

Interesting ideas... as far as sneaking goes, there will be dedicated scouts also (ill be making a post about that), so this is the person who wont be hinding, but using face to face diplomacy, bluff, and gather information...

[Gorthawar]

Interesting ideas... as far as sneaking goes, there will be dedicated scouts also (ill be making a post about that), so this is the person who wont be hinding, but using face to face diplomacy, bluff, and gather information...
A Dragonfire Adept has Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate and Sense Motive as class skills and with the beguiling influence invocation gets an extra +6 all day on the first three. Should be able to get around +20 on Diplomacy at level 1.

[Vizzerdrix]

Some combination of effigy creature, incarnate construct, Dark, gnome, and rogue I would assume.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It's a shame you're banning Changelings from consideration; they are pretty ideal for this.Yeah, a changeling rogue with the racial substitution for 10 skill points per level and skill mastery for all the social skills is pretty fantastic for convincing people that you're supposed to be right where you are.

Alternatively, a binder with Improved Binding for Malphas's birds would be a great scout where birds can go, such as pretty much anywhere outdoors. Works as a great counterpoint to the changeling rogues above.

A changeling rogue 1/binder 1 with Able Learner and Improved Binding would actually make for a fantastic all-purpose, all-terrain scout.

[Particle_Man]

And isn’t human rogue pretty good for this right out of the box? Lots of skill points (and good spy class skills including disguise, hide, move silently, open locks, search, etc.), trapfinding to help get access to places that are protected, and an extra feat go a long way. Make int the high stay for more skill points.

Heck take the open minded feat twice for even more skill points. For a versatile spy there are never enough of those!

[Melcar]

A Dragonfire Adept has Diplomacy, Bluff, Intimidate and Sense Motive as class skills and with the beguiling influence invocation gets an extra +6 all day on the first three. Should be able to get around +20 on Diplomacy at level 1.

Unfortunatly I would like to have Gather Information too, since it is a spy corps... Besides that... I really like it!!!



Some combination of effigy creature, incarnate construct, Dark, gnome, and rogue I would assume.

Doesn't an effigy creature have 1 charisma? Seems not good at all for someone doing HUMINT...?



And isn’t human rogue pretty good for this right out of the box? Lots of skill points (and good spy class skills including disguise, hide, move silently, open locks, search, etc.), trapfinding to help get access to places that are protected, and an extra feat go a long way. Make int the high stay for more skill points.

Heck take the open minded feat twice for even more skill points. For a versatile spy there are never enough of those!

Sure, that was also my thought, but I assume something more potent is out there... A bit of quick math has me maxing out at around +14 to any skill with a human or half-elf rogue with skill focus and masterwork tools... I was hoping to get it a bit closer to +20... I might be totally wrong but +20 in the aforementioned skills is what I'm aiming at...

Also, know that there will be a scout build too, which will focus on infiltration and exfiltration... this particular thread is about the ones who talk their way in, not break in...

[Gorthawar]

Unfortunatly I would like to have Gather Information too, since it is a spy corps... Besides that... I really like it!!!


You can get gather information and some other class skills with the city slicker of apprentice: criminal feats. The latter one might translate well into the organization you have in mind.

Another option is a level of marshal with motivate charisma aura for some good boost. It also starts game automatically with skill focus diplomacy.

[liquidformat]

You can get gather information and some other class skills with the city slicker of apprentice: criminal feats. The latter one might translate well into the organization you have in mind.

Another option is a level of marshal with motivate charisma aura for some good boost. It also starts game automatically with skill focus diplomacy.

Dragonfire Adept doesn't have handle animal so Skilled City-Dweller is out, but Apprentice: Criminal is a pretty fun idea that seems to fit the build pretty thematically

[Gorthawar]

Dragonfire Adept doesn't have handle animal so Skilled City-Dweller is out, but Apprentice: Criminal is a pretty fun idea that seems to fit the build pretty thematically
You're right about Skilled City-Dweller which would be the ideal solution but City Slicker is a feat from Races of Destiny that gives disguise, forgery, gather info and knowledge (local) as class skills and should work.

[liquidformat]

You're right about Skilled City-Dweller which would be the ideal solution but City Slicker is a feat from Races of Destiny that gives disguise, forgery, gather info and knowledge (local) as class skills and should work.

Oh nice, I don't think I have ever noticed that Feat, that could actually be a fun little feat to be used with a flaw in some builds I have looked at.

[Melcar]

So... im nearing a conclusion here.

One the one hand I can take a human dragonfire adept take Apprentice: Criminal and Hidden Talent (Conceal Thoughts), which would give some some nice bluff and diplomacy checks... but the build severely lacks in the Gather Information department...

On the other, I can make a human expert, have three feats an put them all into Gather Information reaching +14. Not as high as the other have in bluff and diplomacy respectfully, but enough that they fairly often will be able to retrieve relevant information...

Now the issue I have is that these dudes will be used mainly off screen, so I wonder how much their bluff and diplomacy will even be used... as I expect my DM to simply roll a gather information and be done with it... I'm considering using one of my higher level followers as a spymaster later on, and that person could then be the undercover/diplomacer guy...

As might be apparent I'm unsure of what is the best course of action here... I like the simplistic expert... and that it has a high gather information, however, the dragonfire adept is more interesting...

In any further considerations come up, please do not hesitate to comment!


Thanks!

[Prime32]

Does Vecna-Blooded count as LA +0?

Also: speak with dead is so good at forcing spies to turn over information that it's worth making them Necropolitans or Warforged (they're in MM3 too) or something just so they can't leave behind a targetable corpse.

[Doctor Despair]

Does Vecna-Blooded count as LA +0?

Also: speak with dead is so good at forcing spies to turn over information that it's worth making them Necropolitans or Warforged (they're in MM3 too) or something just so they can't leave behind a targetable corpse.

It's an LA +1 template, so no.

An ECL1 character can't be Necropolitan. You can't take it until level 3, and it sets you to the start of level 2. Once Necropolitan, you're undead, so you can't hit yourself with negative levels anymore, iirc. Either way -- needing to be ECL 3 to take it in the first place is probably enough to preclude it.

[liquidformat]

So... im nearing a conclusion here.

One the one hand I can take a human dragonfire adept take Apprentice: Criminal and Hidden Talent (Conceal Thoughts), which would give some some nice bluff and diplomacy checks... but the build severely lacks in the Gather Information department...

On the other, I can make a human expert, have three feats an put them all into Gather Information reaching +14. Not as high as the other have in bluff and diplomacy respectfully, but enough that they fairly often will be able to retrieve relevant information...

Now the issue I have is that these dudes will be used mainly off screen, so I wonder how much their bluff and diplomacy will even be used... as I expect my DM to simply roll a gather information and be done with it... I'm considering using one of my higher level followers as a spymaster later on, and that person could then be the undercover/diplomacer guy...

As might be apparent I'm unsure of what is the best course of action here... I like the simplistic expert... and that it has a high gather information, however, the dragonfire adept is more interesting...

In any further considerations come up, please do not hesitate to comment!


Thanks!

You are strictly better off being a human rogue with open minded feat twice (assuming 13 int for both 9x4+10=46 skill points) than human generalist expert with 3x open minded (7x4+15=43)

With that said I still think you are better off going Bard, Beguiler, or Dragonfire Adept because of added utility of their other powers. Like you said gather information is your main focus here since most of the stuff is happening behind the scenes with these mooks so having the extras brought in by spells is probably better than a few extra skill points.

[Doctor Despair]

So... im nearing a conclusion here.

One the one hand I can take a human dragonfire adept take Apprentice: Criminal and Hidden Talent (Conceal Thoughts), which would give some some nice bluff and diplomacy checks... but the build severely lacks in the Gather Information department...

On the other, I can make a human expert, have three feats an put them all into Gather Information reaching +14. Not as high as the other have in bluff and diplomacy respectfully, but enough that they fairly often will be able to retrieve relevant information...

Now the issue I have is that these dudes will be used mainly off screen, so I wonder how much their bluff and diplomacy will even be used... as I expect my DM to simply roll a gather information and be done with it... I'm considering using one of my higher level followers as a spymaster later on, and that person could then be the undercover/diplomacer guy...

As might be apparent I'm unsure of what is the best course of action here... I like the simplistic expert... and that it has a high gather information, however, the dragonfire adept is more interesting...

In any further considerations come up, please do not hesitate to comment!


Thanks!

If you're mainly concerned with just RAW bonuses off screen...

Let's take a level 1 marshal with the Skilled City Dweller ACF to get Gather Information as a class skill. You can take 10 on Gather Information, have 4 ranks, a +4 from attribute, +4 from motivate charisma, and a +2 circumstancial bonus from a masterwork tool. That's an automatic 24, which is pretty good for ECL 1, right?

For feats, take Bind Vestige and Practiced Binder. These respectively give you these abilities:

Naberius’s Skills: At the time you make your pact, you can choose a number of skills equal to your Constitution bonus (if any). Your choices must be skills that can’t be used untrained and in which you have no ranks. For the duration of the binding, you can make skill checks with your chosen skills even though you are untrained. If your Constitution modifier decreases after you make the pact, you lose the ability to make untrained checks with an equal number of the chosen skills. Lost skills are chosen randomly, and they remain inaccessible to you until you make another pact with Naberius.

Silver Tongue: You can take 10 on Diplomacy and Bluff checks even if distracted or threatened. In addition, you can make a rushed Diplomacy check as a standard action and take no penalty. (Normally, a rushed Diplomacy check requires a full-round action and imposes a –10 penalty on the check.)

For Bluff and Diplomacy, as you can take 10, you can also have an automatic 24 -- and make a Diplomacy check rushed with no penalty. That should do what you want, right?

[Melcar]

If you're mainly concerned with just RAW bonuses off screen...

Let's take a level 1 marshal with the Skilled City Dweller ACF to get Gather Information as a class skill. You can take 10 on Gather Information, have 4 ranks, a +4 from attribute, +4 from motivate charisma, and a +2 circumstancial bonus from a masterwork tool. That's an automatic 24, which is pretty good for ECL 1, right?

For feats, take Bind Vestige and Practiced Binder. These respectively give you these abilities:

Naberius’s Skills: At the time you make your pact, you can choose a number of skills equal to your Constitution bonus (if any). Your choices must be skills that can’t be used untrained and in which you have no ranks. For the duration of the binding, you can make skill checks with your chosen skills even though you are untrained. If your Constitution modifier decreases after you make the pact, you lose the ability to make untrained checks with an equal number of the chosen skills. Lost skills are chosen randomly, and they remain inaccessible to you until you make another pact with Naberius.

Silver Tongue: You can take 10 on Diplomacy and Bluff checks even if distracted or threatened. In addition, you can make a rushed Diplomacy check as a standard action and take no penalty. (Normally, a rushed Diplomacy check requires a full-round action and imposes a –10 penalty on the check.)

For Bluff and Diplomacy, as you can take 10, you can also have an automatic 24 -- and make a Diplomacy check rushed with no penalty. That should do what you want, right?

Im running non-elite array, so I only have +1 charisma... so with taking 10, your example would be +18 as far as I can tell!

[Doctor Despair]

Im running non-elite array, so I only have +1 charisma... so with taking 10, your example would be +18 as far as I can tell!

OK... So take Binder as your level 1 class, Street Smart and Cosmopolitan as your feats?

10 + ranks (4) + attribute (1) + 2 (tool) + 2 (cosmopolitan) + 2 (street smart)

Bluff: 21
Diplomacy: 17
Gather Information: 21

No chance for bad rolls, as you're always taking 10. I feel like the Naberius bind is important to work in there for consistency, personally.

As a binder, you also get access to the rest of Naberius' abilities, too:

Disguise Self: You can alter the appearance of your form as a standard action. This effect works like the disguise self spell.

Faster Ability Healing: You heal 1 point in each damaged ability score every round, and 1 point in all drained ability scores every hour.

Naberius’s Skills: At the time you make your pact, you can choose a number of skills equal to your Constitution bonus (if any). Your choices must be skills that can’t be used untrained and in which you have no ranks. For the duration of the binding, you can make skill checks with your chosen skills even though you are untrained. If your Constitution modifier decreases after you make the pact, you lose the ability to make untrained checks with an equal number of the chosen skills. Lost skills are chosen randomly, and they remain inaccessible to you until you make another pact with Naberius.

Persuasive Words: You can direct a verbal command at a single living target within 30 feet as if using the command spell. A successful Will save negates the effect. When your effective binder level reaches 14th, your words become even more persuasive and this ability functions like the suggestion spell. Once you have used this ability, you cannot do so again for 5 rounds.

Silver Tongue: You can take 10 on Diplomacy and Bluff checks even if distracted or threatened. In addition, you can make a rushed Diplomacy check as a standard action and take no penalty. (Normally, a rushed Diplomacy check requires a full-round action and imposes a –10 penalty on the check.)

Disguise Self at will seems pretty notable.