Allowing paladins to smite with ranged weapons. What is the worst case scenario?

[Witty Username]

So, I recognize that this houserule could be playing with fire. However, the only arguments I can think of are balance and enforcing the aesthetic of the paladin for them to smite with only melee weapons (no ranged attacks, no unarmed strikes).
I have made my views on enforcing image on classes before, including that rogues should be able to sneak attack with longswords at least.
Balance is more important, however, it can allways be investigated and challenged.
So I ask, Is this broken? What is the scariest thing players can do with this?

[OldTrees1]

Well there are bad scenarios, like the party becoming horse archer snipers with rocket launchers, but most of the extreme cases you are unlikely to see.

Cases I expect a normal group to possible encounter:

Paladins are great as 2nd row martial characters. Ranged or Reach lets them stay closer to the center of mass of the party. That helps their auras. Under the normal ruling Paladin / Warlocks might switch to using Eldritch Blast rather than melee with Extra Attack. You might see a similar switch.

When a combat starts, sometimes the Paladin can't get to melee range and attack on the first turn. So they forgo the chance of a smite crit that turn. Allowing ranged weapons gives the Paladin that extra chance for a smite crit. This is even more pronounced against BBEGs because the group might concentrate fire on the BBEG even if it means ignoring the minion in melee.


So unless the players do a massive paradigm shift (see RPG snipers above) then it is likely to be a buff, but not overpowered or game breaking.

[Ir0ns0ul]

My DM allowed with thrown weapons only, but no bows. It was super fine and didn’t break anything at all.

Edit: Plus the aesthetics were great. My Dwarf Paladin energizing his handaxes and throwing it at the enemies was a great image.

[Arkhios]

There's really not much else than caressing a sacred cow. Paladins have ALWAYS been melee characters, ever since their literary origins (Twelve Peers of Charlemagne, Song of Roland, King Arthur, and Three Hearts and Three Lions)

Knights and Warriors of good and holy, with healing powers and the STRENGTH of a fighter. If for nothing else, Strength is the key here. In D&D terms, you don't use Strength to attack from range.

That aside, there's really no reason why Paladins couldn't smite with ranged attacks. You may hear arguments for the greater advantage in mobility, but in combat it doesn't make that much difference. Not really.

[Gignere]

The worst thing is that you make Paladins an extremely good switch hitter without any investment. Not even a feat is required. You don’t even have to invest in dex if you just use thrown weapons.

The only class currently that can do comparable DPR in melee and range is a rogue without investment.

Most people already think Paladin as one of the best melee class. Now you are making them just as good at range and at melee.

Maybe as a subclass it can be balanced but as a default ability, just thinking about a vengeance Paladin with VoE and hunter’s Mark plus range smite and you can just delete the ranger as a class. Lmao.

[Lunali]

If I were going to allow it, I would probably require them to declare the smite before the attack roll since that's the last time they can directly contact the weapon/projectile.

[Droppeddead]

So, I recognize that this houserule could be playing with fire. However, the only arguments I can think of are balance and enforcing the aesthetic of the paladin for them to smite with only melee weapons (no ranged attacks, no unarmed strikes).
I have made my views on enforcing image on classes before, including that rogues should be able to sneak attack with longswords at least.
Balance is more important, however, it can allways be investigated and challenged.
So I ask, Is this broken? What is the scariest thing players can do with this?

On lower levels, variant humans with sharpshooter and a longbow. On mid-game levels, paladins with extra attack, sharpshooter and crossbow expert on their steeds with haste. From level 13 and onwards, the same but with a flying steed due to find greater steed.

All in all, ranged weapons and paladins is a really weird image. Unless you're playing a female aasimar vengeance paladin/moon druid multiclass armed with a bow who likes to wildshape into a hind in a Theros game...

[LudicSavant]

What is the scariest thing players can do with this?

Rocket launcher pegasus archers that have more optimal positioning for auras, and are still tough as nails tanks when you actually manage to chase down their high-speed kiting. Cheesier things have happened, to be sure, but I would personally recommend having some sort of additional downside or investment for the ranged smite option relative to the melee smite one.


All in all, ranged weapons and paladins is a really weird image. Unless you're playing a female aasimar vengeance paladin/moon druid multiclass armed with a bow who likes to wildshape into a hind in a Theros game...

Archer Paladins of the Silver Flame are a big thing in Eberron lore.

I was considering designing a homebrew subclass around that theme, with a dose of 'kyudo priest archer' ideas.

One mechanic idea I was fond of was that you could fire a warding arrow that your aura would emanate from.

[heavyfuel]

If I were to allow it (and I don't think it's the end of the world to do so), I'd make the player have to choose which version they want at level 2. They can't smite in melee and at range with the same character.

Plus, I'd make the damage very slightly lower. Instead of d8s, you get d6s. It's not a huge difference, and I still think the trade is worth it.

Paladins do not normally get Archery fighting style, so I'd also allow it.

Something to keep in mind is that a big part of the paladin are the auras, which require good positioning on the part of the Paladin, which is much easier for a ranged character. As such, I'd give them another I'd also shorten the Auras' range from 10ft to 5ft, this way they can't super easily.

[Gignere]

If I were to allow it (and I don't think it's the end of the world to do so), I'd make the player have to choose which version they want at level 2. They can't smite in melee and at range with the same character.

Plus, I'd make the damage very slightly lower. Instead of d8s, you get d6s. It's not a huge difference, and I still think the trade is worth it.

Paladins do not normally get Archery fighting style, so I'd also allow it.

Something to keep in mind is that a big part of the paladin are the auras, which require good positioning on the part of the Paladin, which is much easier for a ranged character. As such, I'd give them another I'd also shorten the Auras' range from 10ft to 5ft, this way they can't super easily.

At this point you’re making a new subclass which I think is a fine way to implement range smite. Problem is the OP is bolting on range smite on the existing subclasses. Besides a vengeance Paladin totally outclassing rangers as a class, you also can have Conquest Paladins applying fear and the enemy now can’t even close with the Paladin and the Paladin can just sit there and shoot away all day long without even getting into melee and smiting away in perfect safety.

[da newt]

I'd think balance and how a ranged smiting Pali would compare to a Ranger (or Fighter or Rogue or Monk) archer would be your only real downsides.

Personally if this was an option/rule I'd think playing a Dex focuses Pali would be one of the strongest builds in the game (especially when combined with find steed or flight).

[Bobthewizard]

I think it is a bit of a balance issue. Most people consider paladins to be a stronger class than fighters or rangers. The only real downside to paladins is their decreased efficacy at range. If you let them smite at range, then they might be better than fighters or rangers at that too.

Now if you had a small party with no fighter, ranger, rogue, or warlock, then I might allow it for that campaign. Otherwise they might be stepping on the toes of the other classes. If I had a party with another character that focused on ranged attacks, I wouldn't buff the paladin to be better potentially than that character.

A vengeance paladin with elven accuracy, sharpshooter and longbow would be deadly with ranged smites.

[WaroftheCrans]

Dexadins are already viable, and with this it seems like they would be better than strength based paladins at everything but frontlining. They have better mobility, better range, better stat allocation, equivalent a.c., better damage, and can utilize their casting better.

XBE and SS might actually be best on paladins as compared to other classes until t4 with this buff.

[Benny89]

I think it should be fine. A longbow wielding Paladin smiting with arrows is really cool idea and I think cool > balance in RPGs. We play to have fun after all. A Holy Archer build would be really fun.

If everybody at the table are fine with it - I don't see an issue. If players have doubts, maybe restrict it to only thrown weapons, like javelins? IDS works with Javelins already, so being able to smite with them would also be cool! Add PAM to it and you have Holy Amazonian :)

[Sigreid]

Another nail in the coffin of the idea that anyone would play an arcane archer?

[heavyfuel]

At this point you’re making a new subclass which I think is a fine way to implement range smite. Problem is the OP is bolting on range smite on the existing subclasses. Besides a vengeance Paladin totally outclassing rangers as a class, you also can have Conquest Paladins applying fear and the enemy now can’t even close with the Paladin and the Paladin can just sit there and shoot away all day long without even getting into melee and smiting away in perfect safety.

Not really a new subclass. I think somethings should be modified in order for it to function, something a sublcass doesn't do. It's more similar to Pathfinder's Archetypes, where you trade one thing for another and you're not always getting an equivalent thing in return (like the Auras being straight up nerfed)

You're right about Conquest Paladins and other similar abilities, which is why the DM will have to be very present to make sure shenenigans don't happen. The DM can easily say "no Conquest Paladin with ranged smites" for instance.

As for Ranged Pally vs Ranger, I think this is comparing apples to oranges. If we're talking PHB Ranger, then yes, completely outclassed. If we're talking Revised Ranger with XGE/TCE subclasses (and extra attack at lv 5), then things aren't so clear cut. Paladin does more damage, but Ranger has far more utility out of combat.

So yeah, apples to oranges.


Another nail in the coffin of the idea that anyone would play an arcane archer?

To be fair, there are already about 100 nails there. One more won't make that much of a difference.

[CheddarChampion]

The ability to smite the evil wizard without having to get past their army of demons/undead/mind-controlled people is probably a plus.

I think an Assassin 3/Devotion Paladin X Variant Human with Sharpshooter would be almost too strong.
At level 5 we're talking: sneak up to 600 feet away from an enemy, attack with advantage and +6 to hit, automatically crit if you hit, with a smite deal 6d8+4d6+3 (~44) damage. Then move to cover and Cunning Action: Hide as a bonus action.

By level 8 they can pick up Archery Style via a feat and use their CD to get +3 more to hit. +11 to hit & advantage, first hit deals 8d8+4d6+3 (~53) damage, second hit deals 8d8+3 (~39) damage.

A target probably won't survive unless it is far above an appropriate CR. That's not even using the -5/+10.

Champion 3/Devotion X for Archery Style, Action Surge, and Improved Critical. An elf or a half-elf could get Sharpshooter, Elven Accuracy, and 18 Dex at level 11. With the CD and -5/+10 going, if they have advantage that's +8 to hit, extra advantage, ~27% chance of a crit on each attack, 4 attacks dealing 1d8+14 (~18.5) damage on a normal hit or 8d8+14 (~50) damage on a crit.

An average round like this, assuming all hit because of the stacked accuracy, would deal about 105.5 damage and would use up Action Surge, CD, and one 2nd level smite. Most of that comes back on a short rest.

[heavyfuel]

At level 5 we're talking: sneak up to 600 feet away from an enemy, attack with advantage and +6 to hit, automatically crit if you hit, with a smite deal 6d8+4d6+3 (~44) damage.

44 damage IF you beat the target's (Passive) Perception, AND win the Initiative, AND beat their AC.

That's maybe once per encounter, and definitely limited to 3 times per day (number of smites)

Hardly gamebreaking, when you consider the HP of CR 4+ creatures

[MoiMagnus]

It opens up the possibility for a very effective Dex paladin. Dex is generally better than Str.
Dex paladin has better initiative, and suddenly becomes able to do stealth.

If paladin wasn't already one of the best classes, I would not consider this a bad houserule.
Multiclassed paladin are probably the winner here, as one of the frequent problems when multiclassing out of paladin is that you are probably choosing Warlock/Bard/Sorcerer so being more squishy than a single-class paladin. Being a ranged character instead of a melee character is a great gift.

As other said, allowing thrown weapons is not really a problem. If there is any problem, it's only because Dex builds are usually better than Str builds, and paladin are already better than other weapon users. But even if there is a problem, you won't "break" anything, just don't put it in the hand of a player which is already better at optimising than the other players around the table.

[DrFunkenstein]

I would probably not do this, and I speak from experience.

Years ago, I didn't notice the melee-only stipulation on Smite. There was a STR-based sword-and-board Paladin in the group, though every now and then circumstances would necessitate long-ranged attacks. She'd pull out her longbow and Smite with it on the off chance they hit something; as she wasn't built for range, it wasn't a huge deal.

Later, a player made a guest appearance as a villainous Paladin/Assassin focused on ranged attacks (it wasn't intended to be optimal). When they found out they could Smite ranged, their eyes went wide and they said, "REALLY???" They proceeded to f*** s*** up.

If you are just trying to let your STR-based melee paladin be somewhat useful when forced to fight at long range, you might get away with it. However, the worst case scenario is, someone builds based on this concept and becomes an OP archer. Being able to attack at range is a major advantage over having to close and take hits. Combining the Archery fighting style with Smite, you now have someone who is highly accurate and does lots of damage from a distance.

If you care about inter-class balance, you're basically telling archery Rangers to get bent.

[Thunderous Mojo]

The "worst" case is a Paladin/Hexblade, (devoted to Apollo's aspect of the Hunter), using their Oathbow through Improved Pact Weapon, in conjunction with Hexblade's Curse, and a Divine and Eldritch Smite and the Sharpshooter Feat.

If you deem that the Ranged Attack requirement of an Oathbow is fulfilled by using the Oathbow/Pact Weapon to be a Spellcasting Focus for Eldritch Blast...then the character can on alternating turns mix it up between Arrows and EBs.

Of course, if you enable all of this, you will be aware that this character can deal substantial single target damage, from range..and plan accordingly.

Singleton and "Boss" monsters will die fast...but then that is true, even if you didn't allow this build. Now, the creatures will just die at a quicker pace.

[Gignere]

If you care about inter-class balance, you're basically telling archery Rangers to get bent.

I would say it’s not just Rangers but essentially every other classes’ archery to get bent. Even an optimized fighter archer won’t catch up until tier 3.

[Frogreaver]

So, I recognize that this houserule could be playing with fire. However, the only arguments I can think of are balance and enforcing the aesthetic of the paladin for them to smite with only melee weapons (no ranged attacks, no unarmed strikes).
I have made my views on enforcing image on classes before, including that rogues should be able to sneak attack with longswords at least.
Balance is more important, however, it can allways be investigated and challenged.
So I ask, Is this broken? What is the scariest thing players can do with this?

Are you including improved divine smite in this change? What about the smite spells themselves? Or is this just for the divine smite class feature?

If we are just talking divine smite I don't forsee major issues. I might make the ruling that you can only divine smite once per turn with ranged weapons to still give melee paladins some kind of advantage.

I think the bigger issues will arise with the smite spells.

Then there's the issue that improved divine smite causes the paladin to outclass the ranger in bow damage if it applies.

[Witty Username]

The ability to smite the evil wizard without having to get past their army of demons/undead/mind-controlled people is probably a plus.

I think an Assassin 3/Devotion Paladin X Variant Human with Sharpshooter would be almost too strong.
At level 5 we're talking: sneak up to 600 feet away from an enemy, attack with advantage and +6 to hit, automatically crit if you hit, with a smite deal 6d8+4d6+3 (~44) damage. Then move to cover and Cunning Action: Hide as a bonus action.

By level 8 they can pick up Archery Style via a feat and use their CD to get +3 more to hit. +11 to hit & advantage, first hit deals 8d8+4d6+3 (~53) damage, second hit deals 8d8+3 (~39) damage.

A target probably won't survive unless it is far above an appropriate CR. That's not even using the -5/+10.

Champion 3/Devotion X for Archery Style, Action Surge, and Improved Critical. An elf or a half-elf could get Sharpshooter, Elven Accuracy, and 18 Dex at level 11. With the CD and -5/+10 going, if they have advantage that's +8 to hit, extra advantage, ~27% chance of a crit on each attack, 4 attacks dealing 1d8+14 (~18.5) damage on a normal hit or 8d8+14 (~50) damage on a crit.

An average round like this, assuming all hit because of the stacked accuracy, would deal about 105.5 damage and would use up Action Surge, CD, and one 2nd level smite. Most of that comes back on a short rest.

At level 5 the difference, between single class assassin(they need to be an elf to get longbow and take sharpshooter at 4th level) looks like 4d8 vs. 2d6 and no resource expenditure. Not to mention an extra 1d6 essentially every round of combat. The paladin can get 3 shots like that in an adventuring day, and need to win initiative to make use of them.
At 8th level the assassin does start to fall behind because of that lack of extra attack, but you are using both 2nd level smites to reach those numbers, so you can only do that once per adventuring day. On the other hand assassin/hex blade can reach a similar point with eldritch smite and improved pact weapon, only one attack but 8d8 on the smite damage for a total of 10d8+4d6+3. And can do that every combat in a 6 combat, 2 short rest adventuring day.
That being said, assassin 3/paladin 2/ hex blade 5 gets you one attack double smite 18d8+4d6+3. If you really need a thing dead in the first round.

I feel like tier 2 on is where the most concern in this change is, or at least after paladin level 5.

[MrCharlie]

More accurate snipes due to archery fighting style. If every source is allowed you can very, very easily end up with a crit fishing paladin from elven accuracy and source of expanded crit range. That feat alone gives you nearly 15% crit odds, add in expanded range (crit on 19) and it's pushing 27, 28%. Of course actually getting advantage is the key there.

(Of course, hexblade does this base, as does dexadin in general, just not at range).

To respond to a few other posts:Kiting paladins-Dexadins already do it, just slowly because they can't smite. Other archer irrelevant-fighters are still relevant, as are rogues, rangers have always been irrelevant from optimization perspectives, so nothing has really changed.

The degree of disruption really depends on if an easier crit fish build with elven accuracy is problematic, and if an faster kiting is disruptive. Like always, your paladin balance is centered on giving them just enough to do that they have just too few spell slots to do it all, and this does not really change that equation. Personally, I don't think crit fishing is a problem (unless it's super optimal) and don't think kiting is a problem (because it's usually impractical).

[MrStabby]

I agree with everyone who points out you are making one of the strongest classes stronger - rarely good for balance.

You have a class that has very few weaknesses - basically just spells that.dont need a save that keep them out of combat. Plant growth, force cage etc.. if we negate most of their weaknesses then it's actually a pretty big deal.

I think the biggest thing is target selection though. Being able to chose from targets next to you is part of the cost of being in melee. When you can reach out and select weak points in the enemy line up or target magic users concentrating on critical spells (and using smites you have a pretty good chance of a hit breaking concentration from the mid game) or even just pick off a threat to a low health team mate the extra versatility is massive.

It isnt just a change in the wrong direction, it's also a pretty huge change.

[Witty Username]

Another nail in the coffin of the idea that anyone would play an arcane archer?
I am not too worried about overshadowing the arcane archer. I feel like the class has some archery problems and arcane problems.


More accurate snipes due to archery fighting style. If every source is allowed you can very, very easily end up with a crit fishing paladin from elven accuracy and source of expanded crit range. That feat alone gives you nearly 15% crit odds, add in expanded range (crit on 19) and it's pushing 27, 28%. Of course actually getting advantage is the key there.

(Of course, hexblade does this base, as does dexadin in general, just not at range).

To respond to a few other posts:Kiting paladins-Dexadins already do it, just slowly because they can't smite. Other archer irrelevant-fighters are still relevant, as are rogues, rangers have always been irrelevant from optimization perspectives, so nothing has really changed.

The degree of disruption really depends on if an easier crit fish build with elven accuracy is problematic, and if an faster kiting is disruptive. Like always, your paladin balance is centered on giving them just enough to do that they have just too few spell slots to do it all, and this does not really change that equation. Personally, I don't think crit fishing is a problem (unless it's super optimal) and don't think kiting is a problem (because it's usually impractical).
I am not convinced elven accuracy is that powerful, at least on paladin. I have seen hexblade builds make use of it but they tend to have easy access to obscurement and advantage. I feel like paladin doesn't benefit as much or at least single class paladin.
I may do a side by side comparison with champion/hexblade and champion/paladin. I will need to go over hexpaladin but my intuition is them double smiting is burning enough resources that it at least includes trade offs.


I would say it’s not just Rangers but essentially every other classes’ archery to get bent. Even an optimized fighter archer won’t catch up until tier 3.

I am not sure that this is true. At least from what I can tell, rangers and fighters benefit from additional damage options that paladin doesn't have (Favored Foe, Hunter's mark, Dread ambusher or Action surge, maneuvers, Extra attack(2)). I mean people play melee fighters and don't seem to complain about paladins being more powerful then them so much as having big burst damage because of smite.
I suppose that is the crux of it for me, paladins are melee as built and they don't seem broken in comparison to other melee characters, and they don't seem to have access to tools that other ranged characters don't have access to. So paladins would have the same balance point at ranged as they would in melee. Burst damage but heavy managing of resources.

[MrCharlie]

I am not convinced elven accuracy is that powerful, at least on paladin. I have seen hexblade builds make use of it but they tend to have easy access to obscurement and advantage. I feel like paladin doesn't benefit as much or at least single class paladin.
I may do a side by side comparison with champion/hexblade and champion/paladin. I will need to go over hexpaladin but my intuition is them double smiting is burning enough resources that it at least includes trade offs.

Oath of vengeance can just straight up give you advantage against a single target to nuke it into oblivion. It's target limited, but generally you're only crit fishing something you might want to use vow on anyway.

Otherwise, the easiest ways for a Paladin to get advantage are the prone condition, so this is absolutely a concern for this build-and is why I don't think it's a huge issue, personally. Easier crit fishing because DEX works directly with EA, harder crit fishing because you can't do stuff like have your Mount shove people prone or thunderous smite someone prone for advantage.

(Melee Dexadins can still do the above anyway, OFC., as well)

[ATHATH]

Multiclassed Paladin 2/Martial Bard Subclass X characters can nab Swift Quiver using Magical Secrets, then smite 4 times per turn (or 6 times in one turn if they bother to dip Fighter 2 for Action Surge).

[Droppeddead]

Another nail in the coffin of the idea that anyone would play an arcane archer?

Arcane Archer is more dead than pre-Tasha's beastmaster rangers. ;)

Anyways, I stand by what I said the first time and what other people has said. Half-Elf Vengeance Paladins can get advantage at will so combined with Elven Accuracy this is devestating. If you combine this with a few levels of Warlock (for short rest recharge) or a bunch of Bard levels you will also eliminate the Paladin's weakness of not having to many spell slots to use. Heck, Vengeance Paladin 7, Lore bard 10 is pretty much a better Paladin already. Sure, you won't have improved divine smite but you'll have enough spell slots to smite for days and you can get Holy Weapon and Find Greater Steed for Magical Secrets. But that's a bit besides the point, I admit, since we aren't really talking about multiclasses. Even so, this would outclass most other PCs at pretty much every tier of play.

[Sception]

Just allowing this flat out pretty quickly makes ranged paladin better than melee paladin, by bypassing the usual tensions and challenges of playing the melee paladin. For instance, normal melee paladins have amazing party buff auras and fantastic single target melee damage, but it's hard to optimally place the party buff aura on as many vulnerable allies as possible while wading into the front lines, and their amazing single target damage is most effective on boss/leader enemies which are often behind a crowd of lesser goons that the paladin has to get past before they can bring their big guns to bare on the main target. They also have difficulties with flying enemies for similar reasons. And yet even with all these challenges, paladin is already one of the best classes in the game, arguably THE best class outside of full spellcasters.

With ranges smite, a paladin can optimally place their auras while at the same time focusing their high end single target damage on the big bad without having to worry about flight or minions in the way.

It's a power up that paladins don't need, and that shifts the optimal way to play a paladin away from the intended aesthetic trope. So it's probably not a good idea, at least not as a free option available to all paladins without cost.

[KorvinStarmast]

My DM allowed with thrown weapons only, but no bows. It was super fine and didn’t break anything at all.

Edit: Plus the aesthetics were great. My Dwarf Paladin energizing his handaxes and throwing it at the enemies was a great image. Yep. I allow the same. Nothing untoward.

If I were going to allow it, I would probably require them to declare the smite before the attack roll since that's the last time they can directly contact the weapon/projectile. I had not thought that through, but I like that as a balancing idea.

Another nail in the coffin of the idea that anyone would play an arcane archer? You'd need to dig the coffin out of the ground to add the extra nail. :smallbiggrin:

Better to just smoke it. (Does anyone else remember that people used to call cigarettes "coffin nails" as an allusion to how they are bad for your health?)

[BoutsofInsanity]

So you wanted the Worst Case Scenario.

I caveat this with if your group is small, and you don't already have someone in the archer role than it might be fine. But the worst possible scenario is the following.

Before being able to smite from range, paladins traded the ability to nova targets and tank (By being scary must drop targets) for safety for damage at range. Frankly at range Paladins, even specked for it aren't as dangerous as the melee paladin in your face smiting you down. Just in terms of enemy target acquisition. They only have two attacks and don't typically have archery fighting style so their damage isn't nearly as deadly as the rogue, or archer fighter specialist.

But with smites at range?

Now the Paladin can nova, at range, safely, while supporting allies, with aura's. Safely. There are no downsides to ranged combat for Paladins at that point. They becoming monsters of Ranged nuking. Then even in melee they can drop the bow, grab a little dagger and still drop smites with a 1d4 weapon. Essentially they lose all weaknesses and become the optimal class for combat.

Healing
High AC
D10 HP
Good Saves (Now with more Dex)
Spells
Ranged Damage
Melee Damage
Support Aura's
Lay on Hands
Mount Summons
Can now stealth due to Dexterity Based


I LOVE ARCHER PALADINS. I want them to be able to smite at range. But I have to concede it's too good. Way too good. The only caveat I might say, would be to allow the smite spells to smite at range. That's the only thing I would allow, because it becomes lost even if you miss.

[Frogreaver]

So you wanted the Worst Case Scenario.

I caveat this with if your group is small, and you don't already have someone in the archer role than it might be fine. But the worst possible scenario is the following.

Before being able to smite from range, paladins traded the ability to nova targets and tank (By being scary must drop targets) for safety for damage at range. Frankly at range Paladins, even specked for it aren't as dangerous as the melee paladin in your face smiting you down. Just in terms of enemy target acquisition. They only have two attacks and don't typically have archery fighting style so their damage isn't nearly as deadly as the rogue, or archer fighter specialist.

But with smites at range?

Now the Paladin can nova, at range, safely, while supporting allies, with aura's. Safely. There are no downsides to ranged combat for Paladins at that point. They becoming monsters of Ranged nuking. Then even in melee they can drop the bow, grab a little dagger and still drop smites with a 1d4 weapon. Essentially they lose all weaknesses and become the optimal class for combat.

Healing
High AC
D10 HP
Good Saves (Now with more Dex)
Spells
Ranged Damage
Melee Damage
Support Aura's
Lay on Hands
Mount Summons
Can now stealth due to Dexterity Based


I LOVE ARCHER PALADINS. I want them to be able to smite at range. But I have to concede it's too good. Way too good. The only caveat I might say, would be to allow the smite spells to smite at range. That's the only thing I would allow, because it becomes lost even if you miss.

I think the argument that they won’t have a weakness is flimsy.

1. Fighters and rangers both can go archery or melee. No one complains that fighters or rangers lose important weaknesses by going ranged.

2. Fighters with SS and CE and archery style and precision attack are still going to be stronger than a Paladin with a bow.

Which really comes down to the question - is there a larger gap between a Paladin with a bow and one with a sword/spear than there is between a fighter with a bow compared to one with a sword/spear/greatsword?

I don’t think so as the melee Paladin can at least supplement his movement with magic.

[Droppeddead]

I think the argument that they won’t have a weakness is flimsy.

What weakness is that?


1. Fighters and rangers both can go archery or melee. No one complains that fighters or rangers lose important weaknesses by going ranged.

Fighters and Rangers can't use divine smite and improved divine smite and smite spells and (in the case of vengeance paladins) Hunter's Mark.


2. Fighters with SS and CE and archery style and precision attack are still going to be stronger than a Paladin with a bow.

They might be slightly better at hitting the target but npothing stops Paladins to take those same feats. Add on Elven Accuracy on a half-elf vengeance paladin with at will advantage and they have a really good chance to crit.


Which really comes down to the question - is there a larger gap between a Paladin with a bow and one with a sword/spear than there is between a fighter with a bow compared to one with a sword/spear/greatsword?

I don’t think so as the melee Paladin can at least supplement his movement with magic.

Not sure what this has to do with anything? Being able to supplement movement with magic just makes you even better, right?

[Kane0]

I allow it with a lower damage die.

So far nobody has made a build around it and only ranged smite when they cant get into melee range. If they were to build around it i would imagine making top use of auras and something like ancestral barbarian to maximise non-melee stickiness would be quite a thorn to unprepared enemies.

[Arkhios]

I allow it with a lower damage die.

On hindsight, I was thinking about doing the same, and letting ranged smites use d4s instead of d8s.

[BoutsofInsanity]

I think the argument that they won’t have a weakness is flimsy.

1. Fighters and rangers both can go archery or melee. No one complains that fighters or rangers lose important weaknesses by going ranged.

2. Fighters with SS and CE and archery style and precision attack are still going to be stronger than a Paladin with a bow.

Which really comes down to the question - is there a larger gap between a Paladin with a bow and one with a sword/spear than there is between a fighter with a bow compared to one with a sword/spear/greatsword?

I don’t think so as the melee Paladin can at least supplement his movement with magic.

1. Because Fighter's and Ranger's don't have their key damage ability locked behind the "melee" paywall. Fighters and Rangers are designed around being able to both attack and defend at range. Paladins are not. Their smite abilities are specifically designed for melee combat. Unlocking them to work from range becomes very strong. So where as before their best damaging ability was locked at melee they can now do at range.

2a. Paladins can take all of those feats if they so choose. They just won't have the extra attacks.

2b. It's not about whether the Paladin with a bow is still not as good at ranged combat as a fighter specialized with fighting at range. It's about the Paladin being almost as good as the fighter at range. And having magic, aura's, Lay on Hands, Smites, and so forth. The ability to smite with no risk is the inherent problem. It also finally buffs a key save and improves initiative.

There are literally no downsides to playing a ranged dexterity based smiting paladin.

[Kane0]

On hindsight, I was thinking about doing the same, and letting ranged smites use d4s instead of d8s.

In fact, why not base it on the distance?
Melee reach: d8s
Up to 20 feet: d6s
Up to 60 feet: d4s
Beyond that nothing

[PhantomSoul]

In fact, why not base it on the distance?
Melee reach: d8s
Up to 20 feet: d6s
Up to 60 feet: d4s
Beyond that nothing

Cool gradual idea!

Alternatively, if one of the concerns is SADness / being able to use Dex (but not wanting to hide it behind a STR-based attacks requirement), maybe a change to the general ability would be an option, plausibly more worth a subclass at that point. Forcing a saving throw with the same die (I'd do save-for-half if so, and maybe boost the die instead of lower it) fixes possible ranged crit-fishing concerns, gives some reason to have CHA (assuming the saving throw is vs. the paladin's DC, though hexblade), and makes it feel like it's a distinct effect (to contrast more clearly with sneak attack -- and make it spell-ier).


EDIT: As a side note, I already have "declare beforehand, but use no resource if you miss" for melee smites in my games, and it works great. You can target times when you maximise the chance of a crit, but suddenly paladin spells get used a little instead of never. In that system, you could just say you use the resource if you miss when it's a ranged attack -- if wanting to allow ranged smites, obviously. I've found paladins need no help in my groups, and the melee restriction encourages some considerations that I appreciate (especially for the aura) plus the melee-heavy class being in melee isn't usually a big issue.

[1Pirate]

Surprised no one’s mentioned Branding Smite. It pretty much does some of the proposed nerfs already. They can smite at range at the cost of a lower damage die and concentration and upcast if they really need it.

[Hael]

Hexblade monoclass with SS/CBE/fighting initiate already out dprs samurai or BM archers, and they can smite as well (which prones, which is slightly ackward for a ranged class). Paladins will generally hit less hard than that.

The real balance issue is that the Paladins can provide aura to the ranged classes, which makes it difficult for many DMs to reliably threaten the backlines without getting into archery wars. So eg an oath of the ancient paladin protecting the rogue xbowman, bard and sorcerer is very strong.

Of course, from a class balance point of view range > melee by a large amount in 5e, and so I’d be a little hesitant opening that up to the best overall martial chassis in the game. One that also has find greater steed and who is capable of kiting most enemies.

[Kane0]

Surprised no one’s mentioned Branding Smite. It pretty much does some of the proposed nerfs already. They can smite at range at the cost of a lower damage die and concentration and upcast if they really need it.

And a spell prepared and a bonus action.

[Witty Username]

What weakness is that?



Fighters and Rangers can't use divine smite and improved divine smite and smite spells and (in the case of vengeance paladins) Hunter's Mark.



They might be slightly better at hitting the target but nothing stops Paladins to take those same feats. Add on Elven Accuracy on a half-elf vengeance paladin with at will advantage and they have a really good chance to crit.



Not sure what this has to do with anything? Being able to supplement movement with magic just makes you even better, right?

1/2 caster spell slots for one, most paladins cant smite very much without running dry. Even the 15th level paladin a friend of mine played had consistent problems running out of spell slots. Rangers have it better because they tend to get more damage or rounds per spell slot than paladins.

Fighters and Rangers both get more attacks per turn, and have their own abilities for boosting damage and such. Now, one could argue that divine smite is still better than those abilities but that would apply to melee as well. There is also that a paladin is required to take feats or multiclass for the archery combat style which will give those classes the edge.

Gloomstalkers arguably benefit more from elven accuracy because they have practical invisibility in darkness because of how dark vision works and the multiple attacks they can make in the first round of combat. 2 levels in fighter and you can make 6 attacks (7 if you are using crossbow expert, 8 once you get swift quiver). And they can benefit at melee or ranged already.

The last point I am not sure either. Mobility doesn't effect melee vs ranged much, that being said melee paladin doesn't appear broken (at least not broken enough to remove smite over) and martial classes other that paladin use melee see play and seem to do well enough that they are not considered underpowered. We could make an argument that ranged is better than melee by enough that it needs to have specific weaknesses but hinging that on the paladin and only the paladin seems like weird design.

[Droppeddead]

1/2 caster spell slots for one, most paladins cant smite very much without running dry. Even the 15th level paladin a friend of mine played had consistent problems running out of spell slots. Rangers have it better because they tend to get more damage or rounds per spell slot than paladins.

A 15th level paladin can smite (not counting the free improved divine smite) 12 times. That should be enough too last them at least two rather long combats if they smite each and every turn (which they probably shouldn't). 15 times if you use Tasha's. Limited spell slots is not a weakness it's a limitation.


Fighters and Rangers both get more attacks per turn, and have their own abilities for boosting damage and such. Now, one could argue that divine smite is still better than those abilities but that would apply to melee as well. There is also that a paladin is required to take feats or multiclass for the archery combat style which will give those classes the edge.

There's no arguing about it, smiting *is* better than what fighters and rangers bring (rangers don't get more attacks, btw). Especially if you allow it at range, which is supposed to be the drawback of Paladins. The +2 from Archery is hardly the decisive factor for this, especially not with all of the buffs and debuff sthat the pladin brings.


Gloomstalkers arguably benefit more from elven accuracy because they have practical invisibility in darkness because of how dark vision works and the multiple attacks they can make in the first round of combat. 2 levels in fighter and you can make 6 attacks (7 if you are using crossbow expert, 8 once you get swift quiver). And they can benefit at melee or ranged already.

Gloomstalker can't smite, though.


The last point I am not sure either. Mobility doesn't effect melee vs ranged much, that being said melee paladin doesn't appear broken (at least not broken enough to remove smite over) and martial classes other that paladin use melee see play and seem to do well enough that they are not considered underpowered. We could make an argument that ranged is better than melee by enough that it needs to have specific weaknesses but hinging that on the paladin and only the paladin seems like weird design.

Ranged is better than melee (generally). That's why most armies tend to fight with guns instead of spears. being able to kill an opponent at range so that your opponent can't kill you up close is very, VERY good. And as already mentioned, all classes have their limitations. The Paladin's limitation is that it is not as good at ranged combat, since that would make it incredibly strong and thus unbalance the game. And like also mentioned, it gets even worse with multiclassing. Just imagine a Paladin witha bunch of levels in Whisper bard. Ouch...

[Witty Username]

So, are you are arguing that paladins not being able to do ranged makes up for them being overpowered in comparison to everyone in melee?
Or that ranged is powerful enough in a general sense that abilities need to apply to only melee combat or be weaker when used at range?
Or are you arguing that abilities that interact with ranged combat are overpowered when combined with smites?

[Frogreaver]

Hexblade monoclass with SS/CBE/fighting initiate already out dprs samurai or BM archers, and they can smite as well (which prones, which is slightly ackward for a ranged class). Paladins will generally hit less hard than that.

But Hexblade's don't outdamage BM archers with SS...


The real balance issue is that the Paladins can provide aura to the ranged classes, which makes it difficult for many DMs to reliably threaten the backlines without getting into archery wars. So eg an oath of the ancient paladin protecting the rogue xbowman, bard and sorcerer is very strong.

They can get EB, hex and agonizing with a 2 level warlock dip and accomplish the same thing and probably more effectively - especially in higher tiers.


Of course, from a class balance point of view range > melee by a large amount in 5e, and so I’d be a little hesitant opening that up to the best overall martial chassis in the game. One that also has find greater steed and who is capable of kiting most enemies.

Bringing up kiting is at least a decent argument. Kiting just means they won't die. Their allies though don't have that luxury. Essentially self kiting just tends to make your allies weaker. That and ranged attacks and magic may can still target them.

I actually don't believe the range>melee divide is nearly as pronounced as many believe. I realize that's a controversial viewpoint but I'm sure it factors into my belief that it's not a big deal.

[Hael]

But Hexblade's don't outdamage BM archers with SS...


Yes they do... I seem to recall that I demonstrated the math to you already at some point on this board. Off the top of my head, the only situations a fighter outshines the Hexblade involves maximum resource fights of very short duration (like 2-3 round fights). Particularly around lvl 6-8. The new Tasha variant race likely makes the calculus worse for the fighter, not better. Lategame, the fighter basically needs magic weapons to stay competitive (they use magic weapons much better than the Hexblade).



They can get EB, hex and agonizing with a 2 level warlock dip and accomplish the same thing and probably more effectively - especially in higher tiers.


Well, I mean we're entering into multiclass land, which is a different bag of potatoes. But I disagree. A SS/CBE build will do a good bit more damage than EB spam. A Hexadin (say a pal 17, hex3) can get the same sort of damage with the same sort of ranged build, but won't have access to either shadow of moil, summons, many impactful aoe blasting spells and will have one less feat, so unless the DM grants paladins archery style their damage willl fall off pretty hard relatively speaking, especially in higher tiers.



I actually don't believe the range>melee divide is nearly as pronounced as many believe. I realize that's a controversial viewpoint but I'm sure it factors into my belief that it's not a big deal.

I consider it one of the primary ways 5e feels different than 2e. Combat in this edition feels incredibly slippery, as if everyone in 2e had cloaks of invisibility, b/c there is very little punishment or methods to prevent movement in melee by actual melee combatants. Said another way, its hard to tank effectively, and its relatively easy for enemies or ranged players to disengage and stay a tile or two out of reach, leading to many lost round for the tanks. Meanwhile that SS BM is plinking away, round after round, with a superior fighting style and a d6 instead of a d10 against the most vulnerable enemies....

[Droppeddead]

So, are you are arguing that paladins not being able to do ranged makes up for them being overpowered in comparison to everyone in melee?
Or that ranged is powerful enough in a general sense that abilities need to apply to only melee combat or be weaker when used at range?
Or are you arguing that abilities that interact with ranged combat are overpowered when combined with smites?

I am pointing out the fact that paladins who can smite at range are so powerful that it will most likely unbalance the game.

[Frogreaver]

Yes they do... I seem to recall that I demonstrated the math to you already at some point on this board. Off the top of my head, the only situations a fighter outshines the Hexblade involves maximum resource fights of very short duration (like 2-3 round fights). Particularly around lvl 6-8. The new Tasha variant race likely makes the calculus worse for the fighter, not better. Lategame, the fighter basically needs magic weapons to stay competitive (they use magic weapons much better than the Hexblade).

No you didn't.

The stars have to align for the hexblade to even get close to the BM's damage and even then he doesn't surpass it.
1. Can always prebuff
2. No magic weapons
3. Must be high enough level to have SS, CE and EA feats
4. No Action Surge (about a 15% daily damage increase)


Well, I mean we're entering into multiclass land, which is a different bag of potatoes. But I disagree. A SS/CBE build will do a good bit more damage than EB spam. A Hexadin (say a pal 17, hex3) can get the same sort of damage with the same sort of ranged build, but won't have access to either shadow of moil, summons, many impactful aoe blasting spells and will have one less feat, so unless the DM grants paladins archery style their damage willl fall off pretty hard relatively speaking, especially in higher tiers.

Archery style wasn't mentioned here as an additional benefit for the Paladin Archer.
SS without accuracy buffs isn't a worthwhile damage upgrade
CBE might be, but at that point you are 30ft from combat. You might as well be melee at that point.
Taking both CBE and SS eats up alot of feats on a ASI intensive character (especially since you'll want to max both dex and cha.


I consider it one of the primary ways 5e feels different than 2e. Combat in this edition feels incredibly slippery, as if everyone in 2e had cloaks of invisibility, b/c there is very little punishment or methods to prevent movement in melee by actual melee combatants. Said another way, its hard to tank effectively, and its relatively easy for enemies or ranged players to disengage and stay a tile or two out of reach, leading to many lost round for the tanks. Meanwhile that SS BM is plinking away, round after round, with a superior fighting style and a d6 instead of a d10 against the most vulnerable enemies....

No doubt the SS BM does better damage. But combat is not just about damage. It's about spreading out the damage your party receives as well. While its hard to force an enemy to stay engaged with you it's not uncommon for them to. And as long as they are beating on 2-3 melee PC's instead of beating on the single least mobile ranged PC then that's a win in my book.

[Hael]

No you didn't.

The stars have to align for the hexblade to even get close to the BM's damage and even then he doesn't surpass it.
1. Can always prebuff
2. No magic weapons
3. Must be high enough level to have SS, CE and EA feats
4. No Action Surge (about a 15% daily damage increase)



Nope! Lets do lvl 5, to get an idea of what happens. At lvl 5 a Hexblade has 2 lvl 3 slots and curse on a short rest. A fighter BM has action surge and 4 superiority die that allows him 4 precision attacks. The build will be the same (Tashas variant + CBE/EA) which is close to optimal and we will assume works for simplicity. Both will do 1d6 + 4 for 3 attacks. The fighter will have archery style so a +9 to hit, the Hexblade will have a +7.
The Hexblade will use one of his slots on Hex (1d6 with a ba for 8 hrs) and the other on Eldritch Smite with a crit (so 8d8 ~ 36 avg). The fighter will turn misses into hits 4 times, so ~ 4*{1d6 + 4} ~31

Therefore we will dispense with the automatic one time damage. Smite > precision attack in pure damage added (36 > 31)

Against AC15 (a Salamander).. The fighter without using resources does 17.4 dpr and the Hexblade does 15.15 dpr. In a round after he's used Hex, the Hexblade does 22.5 dpr. So it looks like this. In round one the Hexblade does 15 dpr, in round 2 he does 22.5. After the 2nd round, the Hexblade is now permanently ahead unless he drops concentration (it becomes unlikely b/c he has advantage on con saves from an invocation).

Now lets get to Action surge vs Hexblade curse. Action surge yields a first round dpr of 29. So round by round for the fighter its 29, 17.4, 17.4 .... THe hexblade using curse on round 2, will have a round breakdown like this. 15, 19.6, 29.4, 29.4 ... So we see that the fighter/hexblade breakeven point is exactly at the end of the third round. Every subsequent round tilts in the Hexblades favor.

Ok it's a close battle so far, but its clear that Hexblade is slightly superior unless you have 2 round combat durations ( I know at my table at least we're frequently looking at very long drawn out battles of attrition of many rounds).

What about different levels?? What will happen is that at lvl 6, the fighter will get SS and will pull ahead (assuming we don't include the spectre which is situational and doesn't always appear). At level 7, the Hexblade will turn it back around b/c he gets access to an abberant spirit (2 * (1d8 + 7)) +2d6 aura for an hour per short rest. From this point on, it's no longer that close.. Details will change a bit per lvl (like the precision strike vs smite calculus), and the Hexblade will start needing to use SoM for long fights instead of hex or the summon, but it really never gets much better for the fighter unless we start accounting for party buffs, magic items and other classes giving advantage to the fighter.

[Hael]

Archery style wasn't mentioned here as an additional benefit for the Paladin Archer.
SS without accuracy buffs isn't a worthwhile damage upgrade
CBE might be, but at that point you are 30ft from combat. You might as well be melee at that point.
Taking both CBE and SS eats up alot of feats on a ASI intensive character (especially since you'll want to max both dex and cha.


Couple points.. SS is almost always a damage upgrade for classes with easy self advantage like the Hexblade or Vengeance Paladins, and is a good damage upgrade for the fighter as well (for instance the lvl 6 version of that aforementioned fighter gets a 10 dpr upgrade from -5/+10 against AC15). CBE and SS allows 120 feet range.

Anway, long digression about Hexblades aside.. A paladin using the same sorts of tricks (b/c of the smite vs smite similarity) is a little more MAD (and would probably dump str and be a dexadin), but, crucially has more smite slots and hence has a little more nova potential. In so far as balance is concerned, a DM might be a little apprehensive of that sort of ranged burst as well as the aura benefits for the backline (and the great mobility once find steed comes into play).

[Frogreaver]

Nope! Lets do lvl 5, to get an idea of what happens. At lvl 5 a Hexblade has 2 lvl 3 slots and curse on a short rest. A fighter BM has action surge and 4 superiority die that allows him 4 precision attacks. The build will be the same (Tashas variant + CBE/EA) which is close to optimal and we will assume works for simplicity. Both will do 1d6 + 4 for 3 attacks. The fighter will have archery style so a +9 to hit, the Hexblade will have a +7.
The Hexblade will use one of his slots on Hex (1d6 with a ba for 8 hrs) and the other on Eldritch Smite with a crit (so 8d8 ~ 36 avg). The fighter will turn misses into hits 4 times, so ~ 4*{1d6 + 4} ~31

Therefore we will dispense with the automatic one time damage. Smite > precision attack in pure damage added (36 > 31)

Against AC15 (a Salamander).. The fighter without using resources does 17.4 dpr and the Hexblade does 15.15 dpr. In a round after he's used Hex, the Hexblade does 22.5 dpr. So it looks like this. In round one the Hexblade does 15 dpr, in round 2 he does 22.5. After the 2nd round, the Hexblade is now permanently ahead unless he drops concentration (it becomes unlikely b/c he has advantage on con saves from an invocation).

Now lets get to Action surge vs Hexblade curse. Action surge yields a first round dpr of 29. So round by round for the fighter its 29, 17.4, 17.4 .... THe hexblade using curse on round 2, will have a round breakdown like this. 15, 19.6, 29.4, 29.4 ... So we see that the fighter/hexblade breakeven point is exactly at the end of the third round. Every subsequent round tilts in the Hexblades favor.

Ok it's a close battle so far, but its clear that Hexblade is slightly superior unless you have 2 round combat durations ( I know at my table at least we're frequently looking at very long drawn out battles of attrition of many rounds).

What about different levels?? What will happen is that at lvl 6, the fighter will get SS and will pull ahead (assuming we don't include the spectre which is situational and doesn't always appear). At level 7, the Hexblade will turn it back around b/c he gets access to an abberant spirit (2 * (1d8 + 7)) +2d6 aura for an hour per short rest. From this point on, it's no longer that close.. Details will change a bit per lvl (like the precision strike vs smite calculus), and the Hexblade will start needing to use SoM for long fights instead of hex or the summon, but it really never gets much better for the fighter unless we start accounting for party buffs, magic items and other classes giving advantage to the fighter.

The Battlemaster will be a variant human with SS and CE. All your math above is pointless if you are leaving out the damage enhancing feats the fighter is going to use.


Couple points.. SS is almost always a damage upgrade for classes with easy self advantage like the Hexblade or Vengeance Paladins, and is a good damage upgrade for the fighter as well (for instance the lvl 6 version of that aforementioned fighter gets a 10 dpr upgrade from -5/+10 against AC15). CBE and SS allows 120 feet range.

Vengeance Paladins can get advantage on 1 enemy per short rest. It's good "solo" damage, but the value of that really depends on how many solo's you face per short rest. Of course the adventuring day isn't confined to 1 enemy per short rest. In which case the more enemies the paladin needs to attack without the channel divinity up, the less useful that is.



Anway, long digression about Hexblades aside.. A paladin using the same sorts of tricks (b/c of the smite vs smite similarity) is a little more MAD (and would probably dump str and be a dexadin), but, crucially has more smite slots and hence has a little more nova potential. In so far as balance is concerned, a DM might be a little apprehensive of that sort of ranged burst as well as the aura benefits for the backline (and the great mobility once find steed comes into play).

That's at least an understandable concern, except:
1. A fighter with CE and SS and precision will likely out Nova or come close to out Nova damaging a Paladin using smites.
2. To benefit from the aura, the ranged PC's have to gather in a 10ft radius around the Paladin. I would much prefer that as a DM in most circumstances, as more targets will generate more failed saves than having them spread out and only being able to target 1 of them with aoe effects.

[Hael]

The Battlemaster will be a variant human with SS and CE. All your math above is pointless if you are leaving out the damage enhancing feats the fighter is going to use.


I believe it is optimal to use Tasha's lineage (so CBE + EA) for both. You could give both builds CBE/SS with this variant at lvl 5 but then the primary stat is 17 under pointbuy and no EA. LIkely SS is better than EA against low AC and worse against the BBEG. Regardless, the calculus remains the same as they both benefit equally under these assumptions.

[Frogreaver]

I believe it is optimal to use Tasha's variant (so CBE + EA) for both. You could give both builds CBE/SS with this variant at lvl 5 but then the primary stat is 17 under pointbuy and no EA. LIkely SS is better than EA against low AC and worse against the BBEG. Regardless, the calculus remains the same as they both benefit equally under these assumptions.

I just calculated some numbers. I'll post later. Battlemasters will be shown to be significantly ahead. I find most people don't understand how to calculate precision attacks effect on DPR. Do you?

I also find they never rule out the cost of having competing bonus actions competing for DPR.

Level 5 Battlemaster DPR

https://i.postimg.cc/8k7VYV4T/Level-5-SS-CE-Battlemaster.png

Level 5 Warlock DPR

https://i.postimg.cc/3RbnGV0B/Level-5-CE-EA-Warlock.png


Assumptions:
1. 7 combat rounds pre short rest
2. 2 combats per short rest
3. Precision Attack was used any time you missed by 1-5.
4. Never lost concentration on hex (no particularly good way to acquire values for factoring this in, but it will not be an insignificant factor)
5. Warlock used 1 Smite - smite critical was not factored in as the best tactics to maximum DPR are not known to me. I can easily add that in if someone wants to describe their strategy.
6. Advantage was never assumed as no way to gain self advantage using the abilities and strategies mentioned.

*Ask about other assumptions
**Also of particular note is that the SS+CE Fighter can go from +3 dex mod to +4 at level 6 which is also a huge upgrade all the way up to level 11.

[OldTrees1]

Level 5 Battlemaster DPR
Level 5 Warlock DPR


I am a bit confused. I thought this thread was about Paladin? Is this argument about Fighter vs Warlock relevant to the main topic? I must be missing something important, so I thought it best to ask before going back to reading.

[Hael]

I just calculated some numbers. I'll post later. Battlemasters will be shown to be significantly ahead. I find most people don't understand how to calculate precision attacks effect on DPR. Do you?

I also find they never rule out the cost of having competing bonus actions competing for DPR.


What build are you using here? Are you using SS/CBE with 1d6 +3 or the one I posted above with EA/CBE at 1d6 + 4? I separated Smite and precision attack as extra one time damage on top of the average so as to not muddy the dpr calculations, and that's perfectly consistent b/c they are independant assuming enough rounds in a fight (so we don't hit the problem where eg you don't have enough rounds to use all precision attacks or the very small chance that we don't have a single crit and can't eldritch smite crit).

I also separated bonus actions correctly (which is why a resource using Hexblade round 1 is BA hex, 2 attacks. round 2 ba curse, 2 attacks. round 3, 3 attacks)

I used ludicsavants damage calculator and the assumption was 2 fights per short rest of indeterminate duration (I demonstrated the break even points for damage).

[Hael]

I am a bit confused. I thought this thread was about Paladin? Is this argument about Fighter vs Warlock relevant to the main topic? I must be missing something important, so I thought it best to ask before going back to reading.

No unfortunately, its an aside and can be brought outside. My point was that Paladins with ranged already have an upper damage bound with Hexblades (who can be built quite similar and will have high damage and have smites). The hypothetical argument being that if you are ok with the former existing, then you should be ok with the latter. The place that argument fails is the existence of auras in the backline, the potential greater movement of paladins and the potentially larger and more frequent nova (if at the cost of some sustained damage).

[Frogreaver]

I am a bit confused. I thought this thread was about Paladin? Is this argument about Fighter vs Warlock relevant to the main topic? I must be missing something important, so I thought it best to ask before going back to reading.

This thread is about the paladin.

I believe Fighter and Warlock comparisons bring important texture to the discussion as both serve as a counterpoint toward a Paladins ranged damage and ranged nova damage being too high.

[OldTrees1]

Thank you Hael and Frogreaver for explaining the meaning. That makes more sense.


Personally I see this as a strong but not broken buff to Paladin. I also find it an unusual buff, which suggests it would come from a GM that is likely to also be flexible with other classes. So I suspect it to be a rising tide rather than a breaking buff.

[Witty Username]

I am a bit confused. I thought this thread was about Paladin? Is this argument about Fighter vs Warlock relevant to the main topic? I must be missing something important, so I thought it best to ask before going back to reading.

It is a tangent, somewhat related to the main topic. This is about paladin divine smite, and the warlock eldritch smite is similar so it got used as a talking point especially because this is about the balance of allowing ranged divine smite and eldritch smite can already be used at range.

Edit: this is what I get for not reading the whole page.


Thank you Hael and Frogreaver for explaining the meaning. That makes more sense.


Personally I see this as a strong but not broken buff to Paladin. I also find it an unusual buff, which suggests it would come from a GM that is likely to also be flexible with other classes. So I suspect it to be a rising tide rather than a breaking buff.
At least in my case, you are probably correct. I get frustrated by theme being enforced by hard rules, especially in cases that break immersion or readability. For example, I dislike the rogue's sneak attack feature limiting to finesse and ranged weapons, since I feel it is less about the style of weapon an more a commitment to the tactics, with the greatest frustration being the long sword which rogues are proficient with despite not being proficient with most martial weapons. This is where readability comes in, the rogue is both encouraged to use a longsword and actively punished for it.
The paladin round is ranged smites, since unless the gods hate bows I don't see why they couldn't smite with them, especially when clerics with divine strike can use ranged weapons and warlocks can smite with bows. Clearly the goal of this limitation is to enforce theme or balance. If it is balance we can "prove" it right or wrong. Or at least discuss it.