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SangoProduction
2021-01-10, 05:44 AM
Know what? Let's look at Casting Traditions. It may be 2 am, but screw it! FREEDOM!


Ranking system:
(S) Superb: You always want this. It's awesome.
(G) Good: You would certainly not complain about having this, especially in the right builds / situations.
(B) Bad: While perhaps better than nothing, you are giving up something for it, so probably shouldn't without a good reason.
(N) No.
<Angle brackets> around a rating indicates situational usefulness, and how good it is in that favorable situation.

- Special Ratings:
(C) Cheese: A talent so broken that it will be instantly banned if you use it as you could.
(I) Impossible: Can't be rated because it is just not defined enough to give a meaningful rating - it depends too much on DM ruling, or personal use. I'll just place it where I guess the average result would put it.
(F) Flavor: This indicates that the main draw to the talent is going to be its inherent fluff or flavor, rather than raw power or utility.


Basics
General Drawbacks: These grant points to either have bonus spell points (roughly 1/5 per level per drawback), or boons, but have sweeping impacts on your casting. With few exceptions, these are chosen at the start of your character's casting career.

Sphere Specific Drawbacks: These grant bonus talents in the sphere, but restrict how you can use said sphere.

Boons: These are mystical bonuses that empower your character in some way.


Ratings: Based on how impactful they are vs their benefit. Unimpactful drawbacks rank highly. Very impactful ones rank low.

Madness Mantra (<S>): As written, this lasts for precisely until the beginning of your next turn...after failing the check at the end of your round. So you're antagonized while it's not your turn. Sure, you don't provide flanking, and might take AoOs, but that's about it. If a DM rules that, that simply doesn't make sense, and extends it by one round, then this is a rather substantial little deal. But probably still G as you can do non hostile actions with no impediment.
Consciousness Linked (<S>): If you focus on instantaneous effects, then this is literally not even a drawback. If you have sphere effects sustaining your life force, this will kill you. For most, it's pretty meh. It's incredibly low impact in low lethality games.
Narcoleptic Casting (<S>): If you have any bit of Con and/or a good fort save class, then...well, I've never had this actually come up as a result of my casting, despite my semi-prolific use of it. And it's worth 2 drawbacks.
Painful Magic (<S>): Just like Narcoleptic Casting.

Focus Casting (G-S): Just like divine foci, this really is not generally something to think about. If you want to be safe, make it something like a worthless family signet ring, which is simultaneously easy to hold onto, and not worth stealing.
Material Casting (G-S): The cost on this is pretty trivial. And if you go through fewer than 100 casts per game month, then the per cast option is superior. But if you just don't like to think about it, then the monthly option is mentally easing, and I love that.
-Think about it this way: If you could pay just 1 gold to let your level 1 wizard cast 10 times in a day, would you? Hell yeah!

Wild Magic / Variant Wild Magic (F): 10% chance of wild magic. Generally none too impactful, even when it goes off. But it's funny when it does.
Mental Focus (G): Generally doesn't come up, and even when it does, it only saps a full round action to restore.
Anemic (G): A very solid, not too punishing little drawback. Don't tell real hemophiliacs, but yeah. Very easily overcome with a single life sphere talent, and not always something you have to worry about.
Incompatible Energies (<G>): If you generally don't run into mages, this is generally not an issue. And most instances where you need MSD aren't all too significant, unless you like your buffs.
Magical Signs (G): This makes little functional difference to most. But it occasionally does come up when you want to be tactful with your casting. The smell of sulfur does tend to give away your stealth, just a little bit.
Innate Curse (I): Pick a good oracle curse, and you generally won't notice. Pick a bad one, and you're just being silly.

Somatic Casting (B-G): It does reduce the maximum possible armor you can wear, but most casters don't get proficiency in heavier than light anyway, so 1 drawback of this isn't really a drawback. 2 might be substantial.
Rigorous Concentration (B-G): Basically guarantees you fail your concentration checks. So don't get your checks forced, and this isn't even an issue. But that requires not getting hit while casting, which can't be guaranteed.
Galvanized (B-G): If you use weapons, this is pretty free. But putting a "I cannot cast" on a disarm check is pretty...ballzy?
Spell Stand-In (B-G): I don't think this is actually all that much of a downside. But when you've been caught out / had your familiars destroyed, then this can suck.
Verbal Casting (B-G): This also generally makes little functional difference, but it explicitly breaks stealth, and can be silenced, preventing you from casting.
Draining Casting (B-G): Realistically, you'll run out of spell points before hit points, but you can't meaningfully negate this, and it is basically just reducing your max HP for the day each time you cast. Even in low lethality games, a prolific caster without high con will get knocked out.
Coy Caster (F): Even sneaks have difficulty never being observed when casting. But you can make it work.
Prepared Caster (B-G): While generally not too much of an impediment. Especially with many spheres have cantrip effects baked in. But it can be inconvenient at times.

Center Of Power (B): This is really not a terrible, or even particularly impactful drawback, but it's exclusive against Focus Casting and Galvanized which are even more trivial, and requires less conscious remembering of the fact that you have this drawback in the 1/20 sessions that you get crit.
Unstable Storage (F): This is actually incredibly impactful, in that it effectively reserves half of your spell point pool, unless you want to start taking penalties. Even if this gave 5 drawbacks, this wouldn't give you half your spell point pool. But the penalties are rather mild, and it's flavorful
Emotional Casting (B): It takes active effort to remember you have this. And then you can't do anything if you are afflicted with a non-harmless emotion effect...which are not uncommon.
Diagram Magic (B): You can't cast without first creating a casting diagram on the ground. This is actually remarkably easy if your caster ability is intelligence, but does soak your first turn, if you don't have any prep. Two drawbacks for this is nice, while granting flavor. The drawback for failure is lower CL, but there are several spheres and talents that mostly don't care about CL.
Skilled Casting (B): Unlike Diagram Magic, you aren't associating with a generally useful skill, and you don't get to take 10, and you must do it for all your spell casts, not simply one single rune, and this doesn't count as 2 drawbacks, without DM discretion. But you don't spend a round on it.
Extended Casting (B): Forcing most spells to be full-round, and having no immediate action spells is rather substantial. But I think the double drawback points is worth it. Taken twice is never worth it unless you cast day-long buffs, and are otherwise just a martial character. But in that case, it's very profitable at 4 drawbacks.
Terrain Casting (B): Basically extended casting, but you have the option either using a spell point or passing off the move action requirement to next round (if you want to cast next round)...if you care nothing for the RP implications...and it grants 1 fewer drawback.
Witchmarked (<B>): Not a horrific drawback. Just exclusive with Magical Signs which actually has almost none of these drawbacks. A particularly Stealth skill-reliant character might want all these penalties over Magical signs telling people you're there.

Charged Spells (N-B):I really don't like this. But I've never been partial to prepared casters, period. Even for 2 drawback points.
Addictive Casting (N-B): The penalty is just far too great for just 2 drawbacks worth. With possible exception for if you have a lot of narrative downtime to burn off the addiction. There is an Enhancement feat which can essentially negate this as a drawback, making it 2 drawbacks for a feat, which is worthwhile at high levels.

Fey-Infused Magic (N): Most armor grants saving throw bonuses, which is horrible for offense. And almost all weapons dispel your effects, which is terrible for defense / buff. My god.
Vulnerable Spellcaster (N-): Dude. The number of attack penalty-granting debuffs out there are immense. Among them are sickened and shaken. And you get a flat out "cannot cast" under certain conditions. For just 1 drawback. Just...don't.
Expensive Locus (N-): While semi-substantial, it won't really break the bank. The problem is just that it's like Focus Casting, but expensive with no additional upside, and Material Casting would take 2000 casts at level 2 in order to equal this cost. Or 20 months using the monthly cost. This drawback is strictly worse.
Area Bound (I): Either you are in a very sedentary campaign, in which case this isn't even a drawback (and will probably not be allowed), or this is literally the worst restriction.
Unsettling Casting (I): Never used sanity rules. Never intend to. I can't imagine it's a good idea to give yourself sanity damage.


Spell Points {1-5} (S+): Spell points are awesome. Doubling your natural spell points per level with 5 drawbacks is well worth it, and ought to be a goal in your drawback plans. But even just 1 drawback does get you an extra spell point, which is half a feat.
Wild Surge (S+): Hell yeah! +2 to CL just for invoking a small bit of chaos? Any day of the week, man. Not for the weak mean, though.
Fortified Casting (C): Con for casting is absurdly good. Even if you were silly and didn't pick up the free drawbacks that use fort saves.
Easy Focus (<S>): If you want to focus on concentrating on spells, then here's something to make your life easier. Especially if you have a mount.
Overwhelming Power (<S>): If you like to debuff folks, this helps, and even the -1 penalty to saves is equivalent to +2 Caster level (for DCs), and it stacks.

Draw Magic (<G-S>): If you have long-duration buffs, or are able to very quickly proliferate debuffs, then this is really cool, and relatively easy to maintain (though you may need to target familiars / companions to gain full bonus).
Overcharge (G-S): Very reliable use of the +2 competence bonus. Only penalty is levels of fatigue. Unclear if collapsing to the ground rids the fatigue. Probably not. But you can cure it magically with Life sphere.
Alien Source (<G-S>): If you know you will need to penetrate spell resistance by the time you pick up a casting tradition, then congratulations, this is equivalent of 2 feats, which is pretty rocking.

Virtuoso (F): Trick people into thinking you aren't even casting. Impressive. Very unique. I love it. Even played with it a couple times.
Sanguine Empowerment (G): Very easy to accomplish with Anemic, and very easy to overcome the drawback with Life sphere. Little pay off though.

Empowered Abilities (B-G): This should only be taken if you're running a high cost casting style, but if you do, then you're likely to get some use out of the +1 CL. And your cantrips get stronger once you run out. I guess.

Deathful Magic (B): It's going to be hard to maintain this in anything but the least lethal of campaigns. So the CL bump is very situational.
Metamagic Expert (I): I've not seen any particularly noteworthy, non-blasting metamagic feats. But maybe they're out there.

Bound Creature (F): You get a neat little pet to follow you around without investing 2 talents into the companion duration thing. And your focus no longer takes an item slot. But it can be killed for a full 30 days, inflicting you with those penalties. Not worth.
Atmoturgy (N-B): Nah. Such extreme weather generally doesn't exist outside of specific campaigns. And the +2 bonus basically requires weather magic in order to come into effect.

Wild Will (N): The one source of stacking caster level, and I can not in good conscience recommend it to anyone.
Embodiment (N): ... No comment.
Drawback Feat (N): God no. Spend 2 drawbacks in order to lessen 1 drawback. Why in the freaking world would you ever...please don't tell me you've thought about the terrain casting feats. Please.


Never Gonna Give You Up.

Never Gonna Let You Down.

Backdoor Arcana (<S>): I've seen a situation where this is useful precisely once in my decades of playing. But casting in a dead magic zone when no one else can is god tier...if you are in a campaign where it's useful.
Witchwarped (<S>): At first, I thought they had to be traits from non-transformation talents, or other some restriction. But no. There is actually no restriction, other than GM sign off. That means you've got a permanent, free, trait (given GM sign off). Sure it reduces versatility in trait choices...but only while applying blank form. Here. Take permanent spell resistance or 100 ft fly speed, or earth glide...or improved initiative if you are feeling particularly boring / have a more limited GM sign off...which is still considered pretty good.
Corrupted Form (<S>): If you've had good GM sign off before, then you can double down on it. If your DM restricted it before, you probably don't have a bunch of really great traits that you'd love to have permanently.

Magic Runes (G-S): A smarter, more flexible Explosive Runes. So it's got all the abuse potential it does, but even more so, as you can have it trigger from anything your character has the intellect of understanding (except for the alpha strike). But it's still got its non-abusive uses, and basically replaces any and all trap-style talents, while having no limit on number prepared at a time.
Magical Focus (G-S): This actually a rather substantial savings on your spell points, if you are a low caster using things like Enhancement sphere to absolutely stack your weapon. It's...not a necessary move, up until you get several levels under your belt, but once you do start doing that, this will save you points.
Terrain Defiler (<G-S>): If you didn't care about the RP implications, then everything here is flavor text except the metamagic cost reduction. Suddenly, with no spell point cost, a lot of metamagic feats become very useful. Extend Spell in particular is great for your buffs. Unfortunately, the flavor text does make it quite exclusive.

Addictive Power (G): By level 4, you gain 2 spell points from 2 drawbacks (Addictive Casting), the equivalent of having spent the feat on Extra Spell Points. That's not a particularly high level. And this feat can effectively negate the penalty, so long as you don't run into anti-magic fields.
Bottled Spells (G): Very neat. Effectively all the benefits of the similar talents in a single feat. I still don't see much point in those talents, but this is fantastic value, comparatively, so long as you use multiple spheres. (Notable uses: Minion actions to use your spells. Party actions to use your spells [not so great, but has niche usage].)
Mystic Choreography (I): Basically using a feat to counteract some drawbacks which you never needed to take. But I guess if you already have the prereqs for some other reason, this can be effectively negating 3-4 drawbacks for 1 feat, which is pretty good. Those prereqs though...I don't have experience with them.
Power of Friendship (G): Strictly speaking, this is a better Combat Casting, so long as you can keep up the feel good vibes. +5 (average) on all concentration checks is better than +4 to most (non-drawback) concentration checks. But like...don't force the use of concentration checks, 4head.

Terrain Focus (<B-G>): One of the few stacking caster level feats. If you are bound to very particular terrain, and so this can be reliable, and are heavily invested in Nature sphere, this is nice. Nature sphere does care relatively little about caster level though, unfortunately.
Power Of Fear (I): I'm not sure why this is a drawback feat and not a boon. But it's basically an intimidate / fear build boon, which is somewhat... eh. You're generally not wanting to fear your friends, so maintaining the +2 isn't really viable. And it doesn't stack with boons. I would probably choose a different, more universal CL boosting boon than this.
Curse Mastery (I): Curses tend to have relatively minor benefits. But it's certainly a thing.
Resistant Veins (B-G): A reflavored Dodge. Neat.
Battlecry (B-G): Intimidate build? Well, this is a neat add on to your casting. Not a large bonus. Not a flexible bonus. And intimidate builds probably have more than enough from more efficient sources, up until high levels, which are more reliable. But it's a bonus.

Careful Magic (B): Getting an effect dispelled isn't all that bad, generally. Even when you do come up against mages. Better they do that than blast you in the face with acid. But this offers rather good protection from that if you're finding it particularly annoying.

Push/Pull Mastery (N-B): Definitely one of the more flavorful of the drawback feats. And definitely quite neat in its effect. But 1 talent in Alteration sphere grants 100 fly speed, and doesn't require associating, at all, with the telekinesis sphere..
Instinctual Skittishness (N-B): Basically, just trying to lessen the penalty for your tradition. But also gains a lesser Skill Focus for the skill most with this tradition would have.
Addictive Power (N-B): This feat really could use some love to make it clearer what the heck it means to do. But: -2 penalty to con isn't worth using on its own. Is it worth it as a rider effect? Definitely. As a rider effect with +1 spell point cost? Probably not. At least not until you're swimming in so many spell points that they mean nothing to you. Unfortunately, past that point is rather pointless with DC going to 10.
Thematic Augmentation (N-B): The one effect that really affects anything is the +1 competence bonus to illusion effects, so long as it's within your theme. So it doesn't stack with boons. You could already reflavor your magic as you pleased.
Poisoned Apple (N-B): What purpose does this serve exactly? I mean... I guess if your party is consistently getting your spells stolen... But I'm not reading that you can simply decide "whenever" for it to switch. You've got to prepare it like this. This is so incredibly minor and costly that this should have been a part of the original feat, if at all.
Insidious Magic (N-B): This...is perhaps one of the most narrow and niche effects I- Oh, not divine casters, Divine sphere. Still, who really cares if they have a 50% chance of not detecting your magic? It's not even a particularly effective defense against Detect Magic. Illusion sphere's aura manipulation can negate it entirely.

Burst of Concentration (N): You force yourself to take near impossible concentration checks, in exchange for 1 successful check. Not a good trade. Even without using a feat.
Powerful Focus (N): Just...take sphere focus instead.
Sanctum Magic (N): This drawback would never be allowed / useful anyway, so...
Unified Focus (N): Spending a standard action on martial focus sucks. Incidentally having both foci down ... probably means you have martial talents and don't really require casting. So you could have just kept doing your thing. But it's interesting... for yet another drawback lessening talent.
Environment Charge / Soul Harvester (N): Interesting, conceptually. But this is ultimately just trying to to negate penalties from something you chose to take, and using a feat to do so.
Fast Focus / Hidden Heretic / Suffer By Proxy / Wild Casting (N-): Not even interesting. Just trying to lessen the penalty with a feat. Just take Extra Spell Points and avoid the drawback instead.


Note: I am ignoring RP implications, as you would be doing so if you chose these feats in the first place.
Agonizing Defiling (S): If you're consistently in excessively close range to your foes, but simultaneously not your allies, then this is quite exceptional as a free rider effect. Upgrading to nauseated for a round at 4 defiler feats is just a plus. They may be immune if they walk onto your already defiled land, since you can't do it again on the same place, but the duration is good enough to nab whomever you wanted.

Defiler’s Channel (G-S): This is...actually incredibly impactful, if you like to use channel energy.
Terrain Defiler (G-S): See Terrain Defiler drawback feat. But gaining even more metamagic cost reduction at 4 feats. That's interesting.
Purging Despoilation (<G-S>): If your enemies consistently apply magical buffs, then cool. Here you go. That's incredibly rare in my experience, but if it is for you, just don't take this.

Distant Defiling (G): If you've got a Defiler feat you'd want to inflict on an enemy, here you go. And on top of that, it basically negates any penalty the drawback provides. (Which is pointless on its own, but when you want to have rider effects, and metamagic cost reduction, then doing so is cool.)
Inhuman Defiler (I): I'm pretty sure this is a good feat, if you want to spend all your feats on this stuff and Necrosis. Especially if you advance it to being Extra Spell Points.
Specialist Defiler (<G>): Stacking caster level, unlike Terrain Defiler. So if you can consistently be within a certain terrain, then have fun.

Intense Defiling (B): The...DC of the blighting effect? Regardless, the effect is really tame, and only really affects your sickened. I would prefer to do something like Sphere Focus (Death) or (Destruction) if that was my aim.

Ruinous Defiling (N-B): Even as a rider effect, the base benefit is really pointless. I would never spend a feat to deal 1 damage / level. At 2 damage / level, you could at least see the appeal of having it as a rider effect. Will negates though.
Broken Earth (N-B): Literally could not care.

Charged Despoilation (N): I mean, considering that you are investing in Defiler feats, why would you spend a feat to try and not defile? Even disregarding that this is just an attempt to lessen a drawback you never needed to take with a feat. Especially when you've got complete negation with Distant Defiling.

Thealtruistorc
2021-01-10, 07:16 PM
Something I think you're overlooking are Drawback feats. For example, Witchmarked opens up the Witchwarped feat, which is reason enough to take it.

As the person who wrote the terrain casting feats, I'm wondering what your ominous remark about them was. Are they considered too strong? Too dangerous? Too weak?

Similarly, I find it funny that Alien Source is considered so weak when there was so much controversy about it within the development circles.

SangoProduction
2021-01-10, 08:19 PM
Something I think you're overlooking are Drawback feats. For example, Witchmarked opens up the Witchwarped feat, which is reason enough to take it.

As the person who wrote the terrain casting feats, I'm wondering what your ominous remark about them was. Are they considered too strong? Too dangerous? Too weak?

Similarly, I find it funny that Alien Source is considered so weak when there was so much controversy about it within the development circles.

The majority of Drawback feats are basically just trading a feat purely to lessen the drawback. For that, you really ought to just not take the drawback, and instead take Extra Magical Talents. Either suck it up, or don't take it. EDIT: OK, maybe (a lot) fewer than I remember, as I look more closely at it...
There are a couple of said feats which actually do add onto them in some meaningful way. Either fluff wise or mechanically. And...maybe I'll actually add a section for those. Seems like an appropriate place.

Oh, I was largely just joking about the new feats I found while updating my necrosis feats review. But on the whole, they are relatively weak/situational. I'll make sure to include specific reviews in the upcoming section. Mostly because you only naturally get like 4-6 feats by level 10. Classes may grant some more, in which case they are more appealing. But those feats directly compete with Extra Magical Talent, even disregarding all other choices.

I'd be interested in the arguments of Alien Source being strong. I don't see any mechanical benefit to it, let alone one that'd be worth bumping up your cast time by 1 step.

Rynjin
2021-01-10, 10:06 PM
Skilled Casting (N-B): Unlike Diagram Magic, you aren't associating with a generally useful skill, and you don't get to take 10, and you must do it for all your spell casts, not simply one single rune, and this doesn't count as 2 drawbacks, without DM discretion.


It doesn't count as 2 drawbacks because it's fairly trivial to push the skill DC to "pass on a 1" levels. It also opens up Virtuoso as a boon option, and Virtuoso is really solid.


Expensive Locus (N-): While semi-substantial, it won't really break the bank. The problem is just that it's like Focus Casting, but expensive with no additional upside, and Material Casting would take 2000 casts at level 2 in order to equal this cost. Or 20 months using the monthly cost. This drawback is strictly worse.

It is worse, but the neat thing is it's not MUCH worse...and you can take both, for a "casts from bank account" character, essentially getting two Drawbacks for the price of one.



I'd be interested in the arguments of Alien Source being strong. I don't see any mechanical benefit to it, let alone one that'd be worth bumping up your cast time by 1 step.

At an absolute minimum, it's a free extra Spell Penetration that stacks with Spell Pen/Greater Spell Pen and the Elf bonus. Spell Pen being one of the MUST HAVE Feats for any major caster...yeah, it's solid just for that. I'm also not seeing where it bumps your cast time up.

SangoProduction
2021-01-11, 11:21 AM
It doesn't count as 2 drawbacks because it's fairly trivial to push the skill DC to "pass on a 1" levels. It also opens up Virtuoso as a boon option, and Virtuoso is really solid.
It is trivial to push the skill check.
Less so if you're considering that you need to do so on resources that amount to 1/10 of an Extra Spell Points feat (per level, granted). (1 drawback is worth roughly 1/5 of a spell point / level. Extra Spell Points is 2 spell points, and only 1 feat.)
So, if you can get to level 10, and only used a Skill Focus feat to trivialize this, then...cool, I don't believe you. But you came out even. And if you get to level 15, you came out ahead on the trade.

Virtuoso is most definitely the most pertinent reason to consider the drawback. Mostly because it's the most interesting of the boons. Not a particularly powerful one, but you pick it for the flavor.


It is worse, but the neat thing is it's not MUCH worse...and you can take both, for a "casts from bank account" character, essentially getting two Drawbacks for the price of one.
Actually, it's exponentially worse, considering that Expensive Locus scales exponentially while Material casting scales linearly. At level 10, you're spending 10,000 gold, which is still 1/6 of your character's wealth. But by comparison, that is the equivalent 10,000 spells with Material Casting.


At an absolute minimum, it's a free extra Spell Penetration that stacks with Spell Pen/Greater Spell Pen and the Elf bonus. Spell Pen being one of the MUST HAVE Feats for any major caster...yeah, it's solid just for that. I'm also not seeing where it bumps your cast time up.
Ah. Missed the Spell Pen part. Thanks. I'll adjust the rating.
Although spell pen is only a must have if you don't have spell resistance ignoring spells. They are less common in Spheres, but it's not as though they don't exist, even disregarding buffs. And it's only useful if you come across spell resistance, and are otherwise just a dead weight feat, much like Favored Enemy, but with even fewer enemies. So, no it's not a MUST HAVE.

And I say "one that'd be worth bumping up your cast time by 1 step," because every boon comes with an explicit cost of 2 drawbacks. The Extended Casting is 2 drawbacks, while being visceral. So it makes for a good anchor point for judging the cost of boons.


Side note: Finished with the drawback feats.

Lirya
2021-01-11, 05:07 PM
For the skilled casting drawback, the penalty for failing the skill check is casting at reduced caster level. While this might be bad for a full caster who depends on cl scaling or DCs, there are plenty of talents a low/mid caster might want where cl doesn't matter at all.

As for diagram casting, unless you can rely on the monsters/bad guys coming to you it will waste your first turn in combat (drawing the diagram is normally a full round action). Alternatively the DC is increased and you lose the ability to take 10. You also can't really move during combat, unless you pumped Spellcraft enough to make the DC 35+CL check to draw a diagram as a free action.

icefractal
2021-01-11, 05:47 PM
Interesting - I agree with most of these, but there's a few I've had a very different experience with:

Diagram Magic - Yeah, it's two drawbacks instead of 1, but it's a lot harsher than Skilled Casting: +20 DC to not spend extra actions, and you need to be on the ground (problematic at higher levels). For exclusively non-combat casting it's great though, agreed.

Material Casting - A big thing that Spheres has over standard casting is that your "at will" abilities are actually good. Most Spherecasters I've made potentially cast a lot of 0 SP spells per day, so the material cost would add up quickly. That said, I didn't notice the per-month version before - in a game with a relatively fast clock (which most AP's are, for example) then it is a pretty minor cost.

Witchmarked - Unlike Magical Signs, it doesn't break stealth, and the Disguise check to hide it will auto-succeed for many characters (still shows when casting, I know, but if you cast mainly from steath ...) Maybe a little worse across all characters, but for some it's better.

Narcoleptic - The DC isn't hard, but saves still auto-fail on a '1', and this sets you up to be CdG'd if you fail one in combat. Although for non-combat casting it is mostly free.

Drawback Feat - I've taken this one several times (for things like Witchwarped/Curse Mastery), because for some characters there are a lot of drawbacks that fit. Once you've taken Easy Focus and your CL-boosting Boon of choice, and put five into SP, what else are you going to spend the rest on?


Also - they made Wild Surge a competence bonus?!
Now it has the same problem as the the other CL boosting traits - all of them except the best are useless, and all of them are useless if you have a Mana-using ally. For flavor, I might still take Wild Surge, but outside of combat several others are better, and in combat it's still questionable.

For the same reason, I can't really see taking the boons that max-out at +1 CL, unless I just had more drawback points than I knew what to do with.

SangoProduction
2021-01-11, 08:13 PM
oo. I like this bit of disagreement going on. It really helps. Thanks for the input you guys


For the skilled casting drawback, the penalty for failing the skill check is casting at reduced caster level. While this might be bad for a full caster who depends on cl scaling or DCs, there are plenty of talents a low/mid caster might want where cl doesn't matter at all.

As for diagram casting, unless you can rely on the monsters/bad guys coming to you it will waste your first turn in combat (drawing the diagram is normally a full round action). Alternatively the DC is increased and you lose the ability to take 10. You also can't really move during combat, unless you pumped Spellcraft enough to make the DC 35+CL check to draw a diagram as a free action.

I do agree that I rated diagram casting a bit too highly (due to misreading, thinking I dismissed it too easy originally ... it was like midnight or something), and pretty much ignored low CL casters. As such I've adjusted the rankings to be closer together and more moderate.


Interesting - I agree with most of these, but there's a few I've had a very different experience with:

Diagram Magic - Yeah, it's two drawbacks instead of 1, but it's a lot harsher than Skilled Casting: +20 DC to not spend extra actions, and you need to be on the ground (problematic at higher levels). For exclusively non-combat casting it's great though, agreed.

Material Casting - A big thing that Spheres has over standard casting is that your "at will" abilities are actually good. Most Spherecasters I've made potentially cast a lot of 0 SP spells per day, so the material cost would add up quickly. That said, I didn't notice the per-month version before - in a game with a relatively fast clock (which most AP's are, for example) then it is a pretty minor cost.

Witchmarked - Unlike Magical Signs, it doesn't break stealth, and the Disguise check to hide it will auto-succeed for many characters (still shows when casting, I know, but if you cast mainly from steath ...) Maybe a little worse across all characters, but for some it's better.

Narcoleptic - The DC isn't hard, but saves still auto-fail on a '1', and this sets you up to be CdG'd if you fail one in combat. Although for non-combat casting it is mostly free.

Drawback Feat - I've taken this one several times (for things like Witchwarped/Curse Mastery), because for some characters there are a lot of drawbacks that fit. Once you've taken Easy Focus and your CL-boosting Boon of choice, and put five into SP, what else are you going to spend the rest on?


Also - they made Wild Surge a competence bonus?!
Now it has the same problem as the the other CL boosting traits - all of them except the best are useless, and all of them are useless if you have a Mana-using ally. For flavor, I might still take Wild Surge, but outside of combat several others are better, and in combat it's still questionable.

For the same reason, I can't really see taking the boons that max-out at +1 CL, unless I just had more drawback points than I knew what to do with.

Yeah. I agree. Diagram Magic was rated too highly.

A silver per caster level per cast is really not much. If we consider 10 encounters per level, using 4 spells each (maybe you sit some out, or absolutely blast others, but let's average), and you used 4 gold at level 1. 8 gold at level 2. 12 gold at level 3.
That's less than 1% of your wealth by level. Is it notable that you might lose an extra crowbar in a level? Not really.
But it does create a negative incentive against simply "playing around" with magic, unless you go with the monthly fee (which is generally going to cost more, but there's no impediment to playing around, and I will praise that change to the ends of the earth).

Duly noted on the Witchmarked.

Meh. Nacro's mostly about very occasionally losing a turn. I rather doubt anyone even remembers CdG is a thing, let alone it being an option that many GMs would use. (But high lethality games be high lethality.) But you can just play backline, and force enemies to run through your allies to capitalize on the chance.

And yeah. The point of the change was that you weren't stacking drawbacks for infinite caster level, and playing wack-a-mole with your CL buffs. Now you just pick whichever one is best for you, and roll with it. And I agree with the...dislike of the +1 CL boons. (Making Mana's bonus CL a competence bonus does indeed seem a bit strange.)
Wild Surge is reliable, simple and universal, with the max boon bonus, and simply has a bit of chaos going off, which isn't even all too reliably negative for you to any notable degree. So I stand by my decision to rate it S tier.

Rynjin
2021-01-11, 08:14 PM
It is trivial to push the skill check.
Less so if you're considering that you need to do so on resources that amount to 1/10 of an Extra Spell Points feat (per level, granted). (1 drawback is worth roughly 1/5 of a spell point / level. Extra Spell Points is 2 spell points, and only 1 feat.)
So, if you can get to level 10, and only used a Skill Focus feat to trivialize this, then...cool, I don't believe you. But you came out even. And if you get to level 15, you came out ahead on the trade.

I mean, I managed it at level 7 with minimal investment on my most recent Spheres caster. A single Trait (to get +2 and perform as a class skill for an Incanter) and Skill Focus gives me a +21 at level 7. I can pass the DC 22 on a 1, and will never fall behind.


Virtuoso is most definitely the most pertinent reason to consider the drawback. Mostly because it's the most interesting of the boons. Not a particularly powerful one, but you pick it for the flavor.

It is admittedly better than average in the campaign I made Fantasmo for; he's a stage magician with real magic in a setting with a Masquerade that is strictly enforced.



Actually, it's exponentially worse, considering that Expensive Locus scales exponentially while Material casting scales linearly. At level 10, you're spending 10,000 gold, which is still 1/6 of your character's wealth. But by comparison, that is the equivalent 10,000 spells with Material Casting.

Sure, but it's still not a majorly huge drawback. I look at it this way: would a normal Pathfinder caster choose to spend 1/6 of their total wealth on extra spell slots if they could?

The answer is "yes, absolutely". It's part of the reason Scribe Scroll is valued so highly, and that Druidic Herbalism is so ridiculously overpowered.




Although spell pen is only a must have if you don't have spell resistance ignoring spells. They are less common in Spheres, but it's not as though they don't exist, even disregarding buffs. And it's only useful if you come across spell resistance, and are otherwise just a dead weight feat, much like Favored Enemy, but with even fewer enemies. So, no it's not a MUST HAVE.

Saying "Spell Penetration is a bad Feat because you might never face enemies with spell resistance" is like saying Haste is a bad spell because every other enemy in your campaign has some kind of Slow aura that cancels it out. It's such a huge departure from the normal assumptions that it's not worth discussing.


And I say "one that'd be worth bumping up your cast time by 1 step," because every boon comes with an explicit cost of 2 drawbacks. The Extended Casting is 2 drawbacks, while being visceral. So it makes for a good anchor point for judging the cost of boons.

This is silly. Most drawbacks combined don't add up to the punishing nature of some of the 2 point drawbacks like Extended Casting. Are you really going to say that, say, Somatic Casting 1 and Witchmarked, or Galvanized and Magical Signs, etc. add up to a single Extended Casting?

They're costed very conservatively at 2 drawbacks for the most part; many would be worth 3 or 4 normal drawbacks. Narcoleptic has a 5% chance of your character dying every time they cast a spell in combat; it's certainly more punishing than any two normal drawbacks as well.

icefractal
2021-01-11, 08:33 PM
Incidentally, some of these are really handy when it's a cohort / companion / whatever casting it instead of you. Charged Spells + Bottled Spells means your fragile minion with a combat-unsuited tradition can package that power up for you to use in convenient form.

Likewise, being at 0 SP for Empowered Abilities isn't much of a downside when you're someone who took Advanced Magical Training instead of a casting class and only has a handful of SP anyway.

SangoProduction
2021-01-12, 12:13 AM
I mean, I managed it at level 7 with minimal investment on my most recent Spheres caster. A single Trait (to get +2 and perform as a class skill for an Incanter) and Skill Focus gives me a +21 at level 7. I can pass the DC 22 on a 1, and will never fall behind.

Nice. In 3 more levels, you'll come out even on the investment. And in 5 levels there after, you've come out ahead. (Well, not really, as traits are valued at half a feat. But sometimes you just can't find a good trait to use.)


Sure, but it's still not a majorly huge drawback. I look at it this way: would a normal Pathfinder caster choose to spend 1/6 of their total wealth on extra spell slots if they could?

The answer is "yes, absolutely". It's part of the reason Scribe Scroll is valued so highly, and that Druidic Herbalism is so ridiculously overpowered.

Perhaps. But there's no reason to take it. It's not asking "Would I give up 1/6 total wealth on extra spell slots, it's asking "Would I like to give up 1/6 total wealth, potentially have it stolen, and be inconvenienced by holding a focus, when I could have instead done something better?"


Saying "Spell Penetration is a bad Feat because you might never face enemies with spell resistance" is like saying Haste is a bad spell because every other enemy in your campaign has some kind of Slow aura that cancels it out. It's such a huge departure from the normal assumptions that it's not worth discussing.
You... I hope you do realize that that has no relation to what you're comparing it to?


This is silly. Most drawbacks combined don't add up to the punishing nature of some of the 2 point drawbacks like Extended Casting. Are you really going to say that, say, Somatic Casting 1 and Witchmarked, or Galvanized and Magical Signs, etc. add up to a single Extended Casting?

They're costed very conservatively at 2 drawbacks for the most part; many would be worth 3 or 4 normal drawbacks. Narcoleptic has a 5% chance of your character dying every time they cast a spell in combat; it's certainly more punishing than any two normal drawbacks as well.

I gave my reasoning quite clearly: It was because it was visceral, and effects clear, regardless of build and agnostic towards other drawbacks already taken.
Trivial drawbacks would have already been taken for the spell points, and ... anyway, my point has been made.




Incidentally, some of these are really handy when it's a cohort / companion / whatever casting it instead of you. Charged Spells + Bottled Spells means your fragile minion with a combat-unsuited tradition can package that power up for you to use in convenient form.

Likewise, being at 0 SP for Empowered Abilities isn't much of a downside when you're someone who took Advanced Magical Training instead of a casting class and only has a handful of SP anyway.

Yeah. Minionmancy lets you more effectively alpha strike. I don't like the strategy, and have only seen such strategies quickly get banned or "counteracted" by the GM's arms race to continue providing a challenge. But I can be more explicit, since it's not as though everyone's a hive mind and knows something just because it's a semi-popular idea.

Rynjin
2021-01-12, 06:02 AM
Nice. In 3 more levels, you'll come out even on the investment. And in 5 levels there after, you've come out ahead. (Well, not really, as traits are valued at half a feat. But sometimes you just can't find a good trait to use.)

+2 skill + class skill is pretty much the standard trait, so it's fine. Taking Focused Study means I come out ahead by level 8, as well.





You... I hope you do realize that that has no relation to what you're comparing it to?

It really does. The idea of a game where Spell Resistance isn't a consistent problem by level 8 or so is as farfetched to me as the made up scenario I mentioned. There would need to be something really weird going on with the encounter design for that to be the case. Just going by Outsiders alone (one of the most, if not THE most prolific monster types) you'll be running into enemies with SR frequently, and they aren't the only monsters out there with it.



I gave my reasoning quite clearly: It was because it was visceral, and effects clear, regardless of build and agnostic towards other drawbacks already taken.
Trivial drawbacks would have already been taken for the spell points, and ... anyway, my point has been made.

There are enough trivial drawbacks that you could always just...take more of them. Again, it's just a very weird comparison.

Kitsuneymg
2021-01-25, 11:01 PM
Fortified casting is even better than C. It lets you use a champion class to get it as a practitioner mod too. And with a one level dip into faithful shepherd for CAM to hit and damage, your gish goes a bit SAD. Or you can veer off into strike for con to ac and just use a few momentum talents to get con as not-dr or half con to combat maneuvers.

SangoProduction
2021-01-26, 02:05 AM
Definitely not wrong. lol.

ezekielraiden
2021-01-28, 07:15 AM
Fortified casting is even better than C. It lets you use a champion class to get it as a practitioner mod too. And with a one level dip into faithful shepherd for CAM to hit and damage, your gish goes a bit SAD. Or you can veer off into strike for con to ac and just use a few momentum talents to get con as not-dr or half con to combat maneuvers.

Does it apply to both attack and damage? It looks like it's only attack rolls. You can, separately, also get damage (if only 1-level dipping, this takes a feat), but the target must be inside a ward that you cast.

Still, even without the feat, being able to approach Con SADness is impressive.