Samurai using Variant Multiclassing

[Gruzzle]

One of my players is a Samurai who is using Varaiant Multiclassing (Fighter) in my campaign. I ok'd this but have no previous experience with VMC. He just hit level 7 and has gained, according to the VMC chart, "armor training 1." Now the fighter advancement page does not actually rank armor training in this way, but we can make presumptions. Under the entry describing this, it clearly has a paragraph that addresses "Advanced armor training" that talks about what happens at fighter level 7, which I interpret to be the notional armor training 2 breakpoint. However, BEFORE that paragraph, when describing what might be considered armor training 1, it says that at level 7 a fighter can move at normal speed in heavy armor.

So that's the question for y'all. Since he's level 7 (and in Samurai, it says his levels count as fighter levels for feat qualifications and such) does he get to remove movement penalties on gaining armor training 1, even though he doesn't yet have armor training 2 (which he'd get later and that would provide the increased max dex and decreased armor check penalties), since he's character level 7? I'm hoping there's been some kind of FAQ, but barring that I'd appreciate a community consensus. Thanks in advance!!

[Gruzzle]

>.> Am I being vague or is this just a real stumper?

[Dusk Raven]

Since the movement-based part of Armor Training is listed independently of the numerical bonuses, it can be assumed that the Samurai in question would get that ability at level 7, just as a Fighter would, even though unlike the Fighter, he only just got that ability.

[Rynjin]

Perhaps not the best answer to your question, but rather than VMCing Fighter...has your player simply considered playing an Ironbound Sword (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/samurai/archetypes/paizo-samurai-archetypes/ironbound-sword-samurai-archetype/). It would get him everything a VMC does, and more, and without any weird unclear bits.

[Firest Kathon]

My understanding of this class feature is that there is a single feature called "Armor Training". This consists of two components:

Reduce the ACP and increase the max dex bonus of armor
Move with full speed in armor

Both of these are level-dependent. In the VMC, I would read "Armor Training 1" as "Armor Training like a 3rd-level Fighter". Therefor they would get the movement in medium armor, but not in full armor.

[Gruzzle]

Perhaps not the best answer to your question, but rather than VMCing Fighter...has your player simply considered playing an Ironbound Sword (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/alternate-classes/samurai/archetypes/paizo-samurai-archetypes/ironbound-sword-samurai-archetype/). It would get him everything a VMC does, and more, and without any weird unclear bits.

How does this get him everything VMC does? It takes away his banner, which he loves both in flavor and usefulness, and weapon expertise which is a great Samurai ability imo.

[Gruzzle]

Since the movement-based part of Armor Training is listed independently of the numerical bonuses, it can be assumed that the Samurai in question would get that ability at level 7, just as a Fighter would, even though unlike the Fighter, he only just got that ability.

That's his interpretation and I'm inclined to go this route as he's giving up a feat to gain access to it.

[Gruzzle]

My understanding of this class feature is that there is a single feature called "Armor Training". This consists of two components:

Reduce the ACP and increase the max dex bonus of armor
Move with full speed in armor

Both of these are level-dependent. In the VMC, I would read "Armor Training 1" as "Armor Training like a 3rd-level Fighter". Therefor they would get the movement in medium armor, but not in full armor.

This was my initial evaluation. He pointed out, rightfully, that he's sacrificing feats to use VMC and that his class is treated as a fighter in levels and ability qualifications. Do you feel like that should make a difference?

[Rynjin]

How does this get him everything VMC does? It takes away his banner, which he loves both in flavor and usefulness, and weapon expertise which is a great Samurai ability imo.

If he wants Banner so badly for...some reason he can get a better version for a single Feat (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/flagbearer-local/) of the 5 he'd be losing from VMCing.

Similarly if he's really attached to Weapon Expertise for...some reason, remember that REAL Quick Draw (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/quick-draw-combat/) and Critical Focus (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/critical-focus-combat/) work with EVERY weapon. Weapon Expertise is just a ludicrously limited (and lowered in value; Crit Focus is a +4 instead of a +2) version of both of those Feats. You can grab all three and still be up two Feats from a VMC. More, because you'll be getting Fighter Bonus Feats once you multiclass Fighter as an Ironbound Sword.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

How does this get him everything VMC does? It takes away his banner, which he loves both in flavor and usefulness, and weapon expertise which is a great Samurai ability imo.

Check the wording of Merciful Combatant. Ironbound Sword Samurai and Fighter levels stack with each other for progressing their class features, so Fighter 5/Samurai 15 is getting full Weapon/Armor Training, Bravery, and (arguably) Bonus Feats on top of all their Ironbound Samurai stuff. Weapon Training is better than Weapon Expertise, and you can get Banner back with a feat as noted.

[Rynjin]

I think (as I told my player who took Ironbound Sword) you need to do it the other way (Samurai 5/Fighter 15) if you want the Bonus Feats.

[Firest Kathon]

My understanding of this class feature is that there is a single feature called "Armor Training". This consists of two components:

Reduce the ACP and increase the max dex bonus of armor
Move with full speed in armor

Both of these are level-dependent. In the VMC, I would read "Armor Training 1" as "Armor Training like a 3rd-level Fighter". Therefor they would get the movement in medium armor, but not in full armor.


This was my initial evaluation. He pointed out, rightfully, that he's sacrificing feats to use VMC and that his class is treated as a fighter in levels and ability qualifications. Do you feel like that should make a difference?

VMCs are, in my opinion, really bad when it comes to level based stuff - it will come online much later and with less power than in the base class, in many cases to the point of uselessness. I'm completely on board with getting the full movement in heavy armor, even if in my opinion it's not RAW. It's not exactly a game-breaking ability, so you as a GM can allow it anyways.

[Gruzzle]

Thanks for the input y'all. I'm gonna allow the heavy armor movement restriction lifting at character level 7. I appreciate hearing from everyone!