sorcerer build help

[Thac0 Redeye]

I'm building a chara for our next game. I want to play a spontaneous casting blaster. I'm building a spontaneous cleric, battle sorcerer, (both from unearthed arcana) and Mystic Theurge. I want to know if anyone knows how to add spells per day and /or spells known. (besides adding to base stats. ie. CHA or WIS). any ACF, feat, item or ?? would be great.
please include source material.

**no psionics, ebberron, or TOB

p.s. please don't try to suggest wizard or the like.

Thanks

[Ghen]

I would suggest taking a level in wiza-


p.s. please don't try to suggest wizard or the like.

... Well dang. There goes that plan.

Off the top of my head, reserve feats from Complete Mage might help you. They don't really boost your spells per day in the strictest sense of the word, but they do let you spam some nifty supernatural abilities at will. People with acidic splatter all over their face rarely fret over the details of whether they were just hit with a spell per se or not.

EDIT: I also just found the "Extra Spell" feat in Compete Arcane. The name is pretty self-explanatory, though there is a limitation that you can't use it to learn a spell of the highest level you can cast. You can also take this feat as many times as you like.

[Anthrowhale]

Spells known is much easier than spells per day.

Mother Cyst (Libris Mortis) and Cerebrosis (Dragon #330) provide a number of extra spells known which you can presumably exchange to other things according to normal mechanics. Cerebrosis doesn't require a feat slot---you can lose wisdom instead. There is also a Runestaff (Magic Item Compendium).

[Troacctid]

You'll probably want to be an illumian with the krau sigil. It'll help make up for the spell power you're losing to mystic theurge by granting +2 CL to both classes. If you take Improved Sigil (krau) as a feat, it can also arguably let you jump into mystic theurge a full three levels earlier, which will VASTLY improve...well, basically everything about the character, really.

If you want extra known spells, one really easy way is to be a cloistered cleric. It'll give you a free extra domain, which means an extra known spell of every level, since you're the spontaneous variant.


Off the top of my head, reserve feats from Complete Mage might help you. They don't really boost your spells per day in the strictest sense of the word, but they do let you spam some nifty supernatural abilities at will. People with acidic splatter all over their face rarely fret over the details of whether they were just hit with a spell per se or not.

EDIT: I also just found the "Extra Spell" feat in Compete Arcane. The name is pretty self-explanatory, though there is a limitation that you can't use it to learn a spell of the highest level you can cast. You can also take this feat as many times as you like.
Reserve feats do poorly on mystic theurges because it keys off your highest available spell level. For a mystic theurge, especially a sorcerer-based one, that's just not going to be competitive.

Extra Spell is a little underpowered. You can probably do better.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you're good aligned, take Ancestral Relic and make it a custom Runestaff (MIC p224). This should get you all the spells known you could ever want, at least for Sorcerer. If your party would sell junk loot for half price, buy it from the party for that same price, get a portion of that back when cash is split, and sacrifice the full value of the loot into the ancestral relic to effectively upgrade it for less than half price. Ancestral Relic allows you to freely determine what spells it contains and even swap out spells each time you modify it. You may want to be careful with this as it's generally considered too powerful for actual play.

The Raiment of the Four set in MIC allows you to cast specific spells, which you could even use your Cleric slots with.

Eternal Wands in MIC can be used by anyone capable of casting arcane spells, even if the spell isn't on your class list. Decent for gaining uses of exclusive spells like Glibness and Hound of Doom.

If you can gain more domains such as by dipping Seeker of the Misty Isle or Contemplative you can expand your Cleric spell list.


As for the build itself, I'll strongly agree that Illumian in Races of Destiny with the feat Improved Sigil: Krau in that same book is the way to go. With that you can go Cleric 1/ Sorcerer 2/ Mystic Theurge, or Cleric 2/ Sorcerer 1/ MT.

[AnimeTheCat]

Ok, this doesn't increase your spells known in the conventional sense, but it will over the course of your character's lifecycle by virtue of having fewer levels of non-growth for your divine side. Complete Arcane pg 181 has both the Collegiate Wizard feat and the Precocious Apprentice feat. Collegiate wizard is dead to you, but Precocious Apprentice is a dead ringer for you in terms of entering Mystic Theurge early, meaning you'll have Sorcerer 1/Cleric 3/Mystic Theurge X as opposed to Sorcerer 4/Cleric 3/MT X. That difference of 3 levels is 3 levels of spells known for your cleric. If you play a human, you could pick up Mother Cyst (Libris Mortis the book of Undead, pg 28) for the cyst spells added via the feat while also picking up precocious apprentice.

Theoretically, I suppose you could enter Mystic Theurge at Sorcerer 1/Cleric 2 by taking Precocious Apprentice at level 1 and Improved Sigil (Krau) at level 3 and selecting one of your Cleric spells to cast at level 2. I don't personally think that would work due to the specific wording of the Improved Sigil (Krau) feat, but that's up to your DM. Ultimately, doing so would grant you 4 additional levels worth of spells over the life of your character, which is really good in terms of bang for buck in my opinion.

Edit: I'm dumb. Ignore me. I lack reading comprehension today lol.

[Getsugaru]

If you desire to increase your spells known as a spontaneous caster, one of the most powerful options available is to take the first level of Sand Shaper1. Just taking that one level gives you a whopping 43 spells known, albeit you don't get to choose which ones. That being said, if you are taking a Divine Spontaneous caster class as well as an Arcane Spontaneous caster class, do note that the spells are added only to the Arcane caster class under most interpretations of Dust Magic, so talk to your DM about how it would apply in your case if you go for this. Also note that the dip will cost you a caster level since Sand Shaper doesn't advance casting at first level (and ninth level as well, but as a theurge you wouldn't be going that far anyway). Finally, whether you can use the Spell Substitution effect from leveling up as a Sorcerer on the spells gained by this dip or not is usually up to DM interpretation; I have seen it judged both ways, so be sure to ask in advance if you want to replace any of them.

Likewise, I would advise taking Arcane Hierophant2 instead of Mystic Theurge if you are able to meet the prerequisites, as unlike Mystic Theurge, Arcane Hierophant has additional class features besides advancing the casting of both Arcane and Divine. You could technically stack the two if you need to fill a level slot or two, but if you can qualify, Arcane Hierophant is always the better choice of the two.

If you are willing to shift your base classes at all, I would advise substituting Spontaneous cleric for Favored Soul3, as it is CHA based and therefore synergizes more easily with Sorcerer.

I take it you wanted to go Battle Sorcerer for the increased HP and BAB, correct? If so, I feel the need to point out that access to the cleric spell list negates the need for such things so long as you can keep up the effects of the divine spell Divine Power (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/divinePower.htm), which can and should be extended and/or persisted at later stages to last longer. Divine Metamagic4 is your friend in this case, though Favored Soul does not gain Turn/Rebuke Undead natively, in which case I'd advise Spontaneous and Cloistered Cleric5 instead (keep in mind that Spontaneous Clerics get to add their Domain Spells as spells known for free; Extra Domains from various sources are also your friends in this case since they're like Extra Spell times 9 and with an added power riding along too!).

But back to Battle Sorcerer. There is no sugar-coating it: Battle Sorcerer is bad. It costs you both spell slots and spells known, which is not a fair tradeoff for a higher HD, BAB, and and Armor Proficiency you will get anyway by multiclassing as you intend. While the ability to cast in light armor looks handy, if you go Arcane Hierophant you will be able to cast and wear armor as though you were a druid (no metal, but there are workarounds), so it won't be a concern later on. In the end, Battle Sorcerer is just not worth it.

I hope these tidbits are of use to you. The road you're choosing is a MAD one, but it can be done and can be fun too. If I think of anything else, I'll post again.


1: Sandstorm, pg. 76-82
2: Races of the Wild, pg. 108-113
3: Complete Divine, pg. 6-10
4: "", pg. 80
5: Unearthed Arcana, pg. 50-51

[Biggus]

For spells per day there's the Spellcasting Prodigy feat (PGtF p.44). It can only be taken at level 1, but you can take it for both Wis and Cha if you can get two feats at level 1 (by taking flaws for example).

There are also Pearls of Power for the Cleric side and their Sorcerer equivalent, Memento Majica (MIC p.164).

Apart from what's already been mentioned, Sorcerers can use Knowstones (Dragon #333, p.93) to gain more spells known.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Have you or a loved one tried building a spontaneous blaster with Battle Sorcerer and Spontaneous Cleric? Did you find that your spells known were insufficient, or that your casting advancement lagged behind your desired advancement rate? Introducing Rainbow (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=2660.0) Warsnake (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=8709.msg138994#msg138994)! Cast any spell on the Cleric list, fully spontaneously! Take advantage of the fact that "Text Trumps Table" to avoid Caster Level loss! Add other PRCs to improve your metamagic - and yes, if you think I'm referring to DMM: Persist, you're absolutely right! Enjoy that delicious Charisma synergy! And, again, cast A N Y spell off the Cleric list spontaneously! Try Rainbow Warsnake today!

Warning, side effects of Rainbow Warsnake include: books to the Head, headaches, feelings of unbridled power, megalomaniacal laughter, smelling like various stinky cheeses, random encounters with French Cheese enthusiasts attracted by your personal stinky cheese scent, inter-party power-differential fractures, dry mouth, and ennui from becoming a being of significant magical power. Consider rolling a different character if you begin to experience any of the above symptoms. Talk to your Cleric or Druid (and DM) before rolling a Rainbow Warsnake.

Rainbow Warsnakes don't have quite the level of sheer blasting power (or even the flexibility with Arcane spell selection) that a Mailman (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?447435-quot-The-Mailman-A-Direct-Damage-Sorcerer-quot-(from-Wizards-forums)) build brings to the table, but they do make up for it with the aforementioned ability to cast any spell off the Cleric list spontaneously. They become especially potent once you start adding in things like Incantatrix or DMM: Persist, but frankly, even just having the entire Cleric spell list at their constant disposal makes them remarkably potent. Keep in mind that the text (in all printings of Complete Divine of which I'm aware, including the German, Italian, Spanish, and Portuguese editions) supports the reading that Rainbow Servant is a full casting PrC, though your DM may choose to enforce the Table's casting progression, in which case the build kinda falls apart. And this is definitely not a build that is appropriate for all tables. But it should be substantially better than a Battle Sorc/Spontaneous Cleric/Mystic Theurge build at all the things that you're trying to get out of said build. I don't know if Warmages can use Knowstones, but if they can that would allow you to increase your spells known. A Ring of Wizardry would help to increase spell slots (up to 4th level), though I seem to recall that a Rainbow Servant casts at least some of their Cleric spells as divine spells, which might not be compatible with Rings of Wizardry. Other than that, being CHA SAD means that it's easier to boost your spells per day by boosting CHA, rather than having to boost both CHA and WIS. And again, while a Rainbow Warsnake isn't a blaster on the level of the Mailman (let alone a blasting focused Psionic character, not that they'd be applicable here) they should be able to play that role at a level where the difference is largely negligible, unless this is a super high-optimization game. It also bears mentioning that many of the tricks the Mailman employs could be used on a Rainbow Warsnake.

[Thac0 Redeye]

OK here's some things I left out of my original post that I probably should've added.
Our game does use XP multiclass penalties. The skill ranks and/or feats being gained by the new level count if needed for prq to get PrC's

I have already looked at and determined what i want to use:
Illumian - yes, hoonkrau - yes, improved krau - yes, favored soul - no (want the domains and rebuking) cloistered cleric - yes (extra domain, woot!), DMM especially Persist - no (DM prohibit, I had a cleric a few years ago who had multiple nightsticks, DM hated it.), CN alignment leaning to evil - yes (a bunch of sorc spells with evil descriptor i want), extra spell feat - no (one spell for a feat? costs too much).

comments on other suggestions so far: Arcane Hierophant; looks good at the surface but id have to wait two more levels to qualify due to skill ranks prq. Also stacking AH and MT won't work due to the XP penalty. I can get into MT at level 3, AH at 5. - Kalaska'Agathas, I cant tell if you are just being sarcastic or not, so I'm going to ignore your post for now. - Totally forgot about Pearls of Power and Memento Majica, thanks for reminding me. - The Raiment of the Four, excellent. Ill have to add that to my shop list. - Mother Cyst, hmmm, I'll have to think about that one - As for the battle sorcerer, it's more for the ability to use armor without a arcane spell fail chance. The hp's and bab are also a plus but starting at 1st or 2nd level my AC is going to be crap. mage armor only will last 1-2 hours, and I dont want to spend the entire first few rounds casting defensive magic. Hence the ACF.
So with that in mind if I dump Battle Sorc, how do i get around the spell fail chance?

thanks everyone

[Troacctid]

As for the battle sorcerer, it's more for the ability to use armor without a arcane spell fail chance. The hp's and bab are also a plus but starting at 1st or 2nd level my AC is going to be crap. mage armor only will last 1-2 hours, and I dont want to spend the entire first few rounds casting defensive magic. Hence the ACF.
So with that in mind if I dump Battle Sorc, how do i get around the spell fail chance?
Take cleric first. It has better level 1 skill points and HD anyway, so it's really a no-brainer. Wear armor at level 1, and then once you actually become a sorcerer, then you can switch to mage armor, and it'll have a higher caster level ready to go.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Kalaska'Agathas, I cant tell if you are just being sarcastic or not, so I'm going to ignore your post for now.

Nope, not sarcastic at all. If it's appropriate for your table, Rainbow Warsnake does what it seems you want to do (arcane blasting + cleric spell access), but better than Battle Sorc/Spontaneous Cleric. The Mailman is a pre-eminent arcane blaster. Either build should be worth your time to look into.

I guess it might be useful to ask more specifically what it is you are looking to do, however. Unfortunately, taking "a bunch of sorc spells with evil descriptor I want" is going to be a challenge for a Sorcerer, given their paltry spells known. Multiclassing will only magnify this. You can get around it, to an extent, with Knowstones and Runestaves, but either of those is going to be an expensive route to take. So what are your build priorities, as such? You want to deal direct damage via spellcasting, you don't want to prepare spells, you want to wear armor without suffering ASF, and you want to have both arcane and divine spells (and domains), yes? Is there anything else? If the Battle Sorcerer ACF was chosen to give you better AC at low levels, why not start as a Cleric and build in the arcane casting once you can afford a Twilight Mithril Feycraft [whatever armor]? Are their any particular restrictions beyond those you've listed, either house rules or thematics wise?

Oh, and one more thing:


Also stacking AH and MT won't work due to the XP penalty.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, as PrCs don't count towards multiclass XP penalties, by RAW.

Edit:

I'd also like to point out that Troacctid has her impressively thorough Warmage handbook linked in her signature just above this post, so you might give that a look as well.

[Anthrowhale]

The notion of a theurgic blaster is a little bit contradictory. Theurge requires significant build resources, as does blasting, with little synergy between the two. Why try to do both?

[Biggus]

I'm not sure what you mean by this, as PrCs don't count towards multiclass XP penalties, by RAW.


Well...sort of, it's complicated.

The 3.0 DMG stated that PrCs don't incur XP penalties, but it was missed out of the 3.5 DMG. The FAQ (p.30) stated that this was an error, it's in the 3.5 SRD and apparently the 2012 reprint of the DMG had the line put back in. So the intent is very clearly that they don't, but it's not actually stated in the original printing of the 3.5 DMG, and for some reason they didn't put it in the errata either.

[Getsugaru]

OK here's some things I left out of my original post that I probably should've added.
Our game does use XP multiclass penalties. The skill ranks and/or feats being gained by the new level count if needed for prq to get PrC's...
...comments on other suggestions so far: Arcane Hierophant; looks good at the surface but id have to wait two more levels to qualify due to skill ranks prq. Also stacking AH and MT won't work due to the XP penalty. I can get into MT at level 3, AH at 5.
As pointed out by Kalaska'Agathas, multiclass penalties do not apply to prestige classes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/prestigeClasses.htm):

...Taking a prestige class does not incur the experience point penalties normally associated with multiclassing.
As such, you could take MT for levels 3 and 4 before then taking levels in AH at no penalty so long as you can meet the prerequisites and if you so desired.


As for the battle sorcerer, it's more for the ability to use armor without a arcane spell fail chance. The hp's and bab are also a plus but starting at 1st or 2nd level my AC is going to be crap. mage armor only will last 1-2 hours, and I dont want to spend the entire first few rounds casting defensive magic. Hence the ACF.
So with that in mind if I dump Battle Sorc, how do i get around the spell fail chance?
I still believe it not worth it. Gaining the ability to cast spells without ACF for (what I presume to be) the first four levels at the cost of spells per day and spells known for the course of your entire adventure is not an even trade under any circumstance. Note that Arcane Spell Failure only applies to Arcane spells with somatic components; check the low-level spells you intend to use during those early levels for whether or not they have somatic components. If a large percent of them do, it may be beneficial to just start without armor and keep your distance from fights as best you can. In early levels the mundane solution can sometimes be the better choice; sorcerers have proficiency with light crossbows, after all. :elan:

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Well...sort of, it's complicated.

The 3.0 DMG stated that PrCs don't incur XP penalties, but it was missed out of the 3.5 DMG. The FAQ (p.30) stated that this was an error, it's in the 3.5 SRD and apparently the 2012 reprint of the DMG had the line put back in. So the intent is very clearly that they don't, but it's not actually stated in the original printing of the 3.5 DMG, and for some reason they didn't put it in the errata either.

I could have sworn that I saw the line in the DMG pre-2012...I must be thinking of the SRD, which to be fair is supposed to be just as valid as the printed books (if I remember correctly, that is) so I can't see a reasonable DM applying XP penalties to PrCs.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Also stacking AH and MT won't work due to the XP penalty.

How do you figure? Prestige classes don't count for multiclass xp penalty, only base classes. You can go Druid 2/ Sorcerer 1/ MT 4/ AH 10/ MT 3 and get 9ths in both.

[Ghen]

Reserve feats do poorly on mystic theurges because it keys off your highest available spell level. For a mystic theurge, especially a sorcerer-based one, that's just not going to be competitive.

Having never used reserve feats on a caster myself, and having never played a mystic theurge, I bow to your superior knowledge on this. However...


So with that in mind if I dump Battle Sorc, how do i get around the spell fail chance?

I would just like to note that, as supernatural abilities, reserve feats are not hampered by ACF. It should also be noted that these abilities don't use components (great for when some bad guy inevitably steals your holy symbol and spell component pouch, binds your wrists and gags you. "SURPRISE! I can still cast this reserve feat!"). Finally, enemies can't counter or dispel these abilities, nor does SR apply against them. Reserve feats have some drawbacks to be sure, but in the right situations they can be a very handy last resort.

On a separate note, I like the idea of going for spells that simply don't have somatic components. You might look at Deflect and Lesser Deflect from PHB II. They provide a quick defensive boost via a deflection bonus which stacks with your mundane armor, don't care about ACF due to having no somatic components, and cast as an immediate action so as not to eat up your first rounds of combat. Since deflect is a 2nd level spell with no cap on scaling, I could see continuing to use this spell for your full adventuring career.

[Calthropstu]

Sorcerer player here.I have played MANY sorcerers and have come up with a good set of spells and feats that ACTUALLY work. So here goes.

Ignore the metamagic feats. Tank dex and str. Pump con and cha to the max. Get decent int and wis.

Reasons:
Sorcs get the shaft on metamagic. Taking an entire round to cast say maximized fireballl means the enemy will be engaged with your party before you cast it.
Dex is good for going first, but unless you build specifically to go first, you won't. Let your allies go before you, identify the threats and target them.
For each level of spell take 1 direct attack spell, 1 indirect attack spell (ie summons or battle control such as web) and the rest utility. You will actually cast those utility spells far more than attack (such as charm person, expiditious retreat, invisibility, teleport etc). Concentrate on spells that will get you and your allies out of the line of fire on a moments notice.

Thsre are a few ways to go with this. Illusion spells can block line of sight allowing you to retreat. Teleportation spells can remove you from the area completely. flight spells can get you away from ground opponents. Wall spells can block your opponents path. Try to have a good mix of such spells.

For damage, since you specifically stated you want to be a blaster, there is a specific choice of spells. I suggest picking an element and beefing your dcs and damage for that element. Then taking a couple spells outside that element for when you run against immunity. Try to take spells that also inflict status conditions as well as damage.
For feats and race, take feats and racial abilities that specifically help your element.

For items, take several pages of spell knowledge of low level spells. Take expanded knowledge, elemental focus and other elementally focused feats. Retrain expanded knowledge as you level to keep it relevant.

Pick up a prestige class early on that doesn't sacrife casting. Sorcerer has mostly dead levels, adding abilities to your casting is a good idea.

[Getsugaru]

Sorcerer player here.I have played MANY sorcerers and have come up with a good set of spells and feats that ACTUALLY work. So here goes...
...Pick up a prestige class early on that doesn't sacrife casting. Sorcerer has mostly dead levels, adding abilities to your casting is a good idea.

What are your thoughts on my suggestion to sacrifice one caster level to take Sand Shaper 1 and gain Dust Magic's increased spells known?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Sorcs get the shaft on metamagic. Taking an entire round to cast say maximized fireballl means the enemy will be engaged with your party before you cast it.

Not exactly - Summoning spells, Sleep, etc. have a 1 round casting time, the spell doesn't go off until the start of your next turn. A standard action spell with metamagic takes a full round action, i.e. you use up your standard action and move action that turn but it still goes off on the same turn that you cast it.

Plus there's the Metamagic Specialist ACF in PH2, Rapid Metamagic feat in CM, etc. to get around the increased cast time.

Also, spells that naturally have a swift action casting time don't get that increased for metamagic since the rule only applies to spells with a standard action or longer casting time.

[Vizzerdrix]

So with that in mind if I dump Battle Sorc, how do i get around the spell fail chance?
thanks everyone

With a mix of fey (or was it gith?) crafted, mithril, twilight armor. Either a chain shirt or brestplate. You can also use bracers of armor as well.

Now, I know you said no Eberron, but for anyone who finds this topic later on and is researching sorc builds, I would like to mention the Drake Helm. It allows you to hot swap up to 4 kyber crystals that can hold any spell and allow you to cast them as spells known.

[Kalaska'Agathas]

Another way for a blasting focused Sorcerer to increase their effective spells known would be to go Shadowcraft Mage (http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=16433.0) (Races of Stone, pg. 120) - they're able to substitute certain Illusion spells (like, say, Silent Image) for any Evocation spell and many Conjuration spells (i.e. the two spell schools containing most of the desirable blasting spells). With the proper application of Metamagic (and getting Luck Domain out of the Arcane Disciple feat) one can even cast Miracle out of Silent Image, except with the latter's XP and Material components (i.e. a bit of fleece (which, as a focus, is not consumed in the casting), and none, respectively). Combined with shenanigans to cast Illusions that are as or even more real than the real spells they duplicate, pumping your Save DCs, or a combination thereof, one essentially obviates the need to take any Evocations or Conjuration (Creation) or (Summoning) spells at all (barring PrC prereqs and the like). That frees up your precious Spells Known to focus on other areas. It is a Metamagic heavy route to take, but while it's true that spontaneous casters normally get screwed by the Metamagic rules, if they're going full send on Metamagic then spending the resources to get around the casting time increase becomes viable.

[Biggus]

I could have sworn that I saw the line in the DMG pre-2012...I must be thinking of the SRD, which to be fair is supposed to be just as valid as the printed books (if I remember correctly, that is) so I can't see a reasonable DM applying XP penalties to PrCs.

Yeah, me too, I only discovered it was missing when I went looking for the quote and couldn't find it. I very much agree a reasonable DM wouldn't apply the penalty, but the problem of course is finding one :smallwink: