Optimization How to optimize Evokers [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

View Full Version : Optimization How to optimize Evokers

Ir0ns0ul

2021-01-11, 01:19 PM

Hey folks,

Inspired by the discussion promoted by this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?625211-Guide-The-Best-Subclasses-For-Party-Roles-After-Tasha%92s-Cauldron-of-Everything) about which subclass is the most effective blaster, I come to the community asking for guidance, tips and orientation on how to optimize Evokers.

What spells, feats, combos, playstyle, multiclass, magic items and overall tactics can really increase Evokers effectiveness?

Please, I just ask to not overdiscuss about Hexvokers -- master Ludic pretty much hit the nail for this specific build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23998967&postcount=170). What I'm actually looking for is specific Evoker optimization knowledge that don't resort into the Hexblade broken raw power.

arnin77

2021-01-11, 02:52 PM

XmonkTad

2021-01-11, 03:22 PM

One thing I’ve seen is getting the elemental adept feat: fire to reduce resistance and immuntinity to Fireball etc

How does elemental adept help with immunity?

Master O'Laughs

2021-01-11, 03:29 PM

How does elemental adept help with immunity?

No it doesn't just resistance.

LudicSavant

2021-01-11, 03:53 PM

First thing I usually point out to people is that the Evocation school is not just about damage, but control.

Sculpt Spells, for example, can do all of the following and more:

- Create an area of Sickening Radiance that your allies can stand in. Not only does this mean that short range foes who want to engage basically have to eat ongoing damage and Exhaustion to do it, it also makes it a lot harder for anyone to escape the area of effect since allies can surround them in the area and threaten OAs and such.

Sickening Radiance isn't the only spell this works for. Storm Sphere, Dawn, Maddening Darkness, etc have their own advantages.

- Wall of Stone grants those who would be fully enclosed by the area a saving throw. Those who succeed on the saving throw get off-turn movement. Sculpt Spells lets people you like automatically succeed on the saving throw... so you get to simultaneously cast a powerful wall spell and give your allies an off-turn move at the same time.

- Wall of Ice is a multi-purpose hybrid spell. First it does damage comparable to a 5th level Fireball, then it creates an opaque wall, then if the wall's broken it creates a hazard (which is exploitable in all the usual ways that hazards are). Which, of course, your allies can walk through unharmed thanks to Sculpt Spells. So if the enemy walks through to get to the other side, you can just swap sides.

- And then of course there's the obvious one: You can adopt much more aggressive and controlling formations for your party without fear of friendly fire when you drop the Fireballs.

_____

As for the Elemental Adept conversation, my first piece of advice regarding Elemental Adept would be "don't take Elemental Adept."

ASIs are precious and scarce. Your non-Fire-based spell options are not.

This advice extends to other things as well. Magic Resistance, Legendary Resistance, elemental resistances, whatever, just choose a spell that ignores those things. Diversify your portfolio so that you have something prepared for a wide variety of defensive strengths and weaknesses.

Thunderous Mojo

2021-01-11, 05:07 PM

Ir0ns0ul

2021-01-11, 07:06 PM

Greater Potion of Knowledge

Hey Ludic, thanks very much for the info. It was exactly what I was trying to learn. Couple questions:

- All the amazing spells you suggested are a little bit high-level; do you think the same principle could be applied with similar low/mid-tier spells? Earth Tremor? (I realized right now that both Erupting Earth and Tidal Wave are not Evocation spells).

- What about combining Web with blasting spells? At some point trying to leverage the fire damage bonus from the Web + restraining, but maybe with something Snilloc’s Snowball Swarm to keep the Web up?

Fashionisdanger

2021-01-11, 07:27 PM

Evokers are damn fine controllers, because they have all the spells they need to be controllers AND sometimes a fireball is the best form of control.

Frogreaver

2021-01-12, 01:39 AM

If you want to play a blaster then you need to know when itÂ’s okay to blast and when itÂ’s not very effective to.

Note that Control is nearly always going to be better than blasting (thereÂ’s a few notable exceptions, but even in those exceptions control is usually a strong alternative even if not Â“the bestÂ”)

One thing you can do is play like a controller unless the enemies mix up in melee with your allies. At that point evocation ability to exclude allies from evocation spells is fantastic.

Of course if you want to be more blastery than that then forgo aoe control and just fireball/cone of cold/whatever to them regardless. It wonÂ’t be quite as effective as the control, but you get to ignore concentration for the most part.

I would max int. YouÂ’ll need the variety of prepped spells and higher spell dc means more failed saves which is a good way to boost damage.

You should have a single target buff/control spell you go to as blasting single enemies is very ineffective. I like polymorph here, but haste/hold monster/many other spells can serve this purpose.

IÂ’m a big fan of having a spell I can prebuff before an encounter. I find bless to be a great candidate if you can find a way to acquire it.

Alert can be a nice feat. Not essential though. Resilient con is a typical staple at some point.

On non-hex blade multiclassing. Most common is a 1-2 level dip into cleric or fighter. Neither is necessarily stronger, but depending on the campaign can be, and are mostly equally strong.

LudicSavant

2021-01-12, 11:22 AM

👍👍LudicSavant!!!!
That is an excellent post. I don't typically read "build threads", but I'm going have to check yours out, because your post is a great example of creative and informed play. As a DM, I love it when players "bring it", like this!

As a fellow Los Angelino, Stay Safe! 🖖

Hey Ludic, thanks very much for the info. It was exactly what I was trying to learn. Couple questions:

- All the amazing spells you suggested are a little bit high-level; do you think the same principle could be applied with similar low/mid-tier spells? Earth Tremor? (I realized right now that both Erupting Earth and Tidal Wave are not Evocation spells).

- What about combining Web with blasting spells? At some point trying to leverage the fire damage bonus from the Web + restraining, but maybe with something Snilloc’s Snowball Swarm to keep the Web up?

https://forums.giantitp.com/images/sand/icons/icon_thumbsup.png

- The 'camping inside of a hazard like Sickening Radiance' thing comes online at level 7 (or 8 if dipping).

- Snilloc's Snowball Swarm is pretty lame. Does damage like a 1st level spell with a smaller AoE.

- Earth Tremor is indeed better in an Evoker's hands because it loses its usual friendly fire disadvantage. It still has the "you have to get close" disadvantage but that's not a big deal if you're choosing an armored evoker anyways (like Cleric 1 / Evoker X or the old Hexvoker). And it has a big fat area of effect for a level 1 spell (25 feet across). The spell does low damage though, so you'll only want to use it if you have a strategy where your team is really benefitting from prone and difficult terrain.

- Tidal Wave has anti-air uses, since it has a 150 foot effective range, doesn't need to be anchored to the ground, and knocks prone (which, against many fliers, means falling).

- Web is a good spell. Combos with ongoing hazards (especially from teammates or -- later -- your own simulacrum using Concentration hazards). Also combos with Thunderwave, which is one of my favorite versatile combo spells in both a 1st and 2nd level slot. ("Oh, you used up all your movement to get just out of the difficult terrain? Get back in there.") Also you can take advantage of the 'burning away' bit because it's so gradual. For example if you burn away one square while a Large+ creature is caught, it's still going to stay caught for a few rounds. Also combos with Ray of Frost, in that you'll have Advantage to hit with it, and it'll deny them the movement to get far enough out of the difficult terrain that you can't just push them back in. Oh, and you can cast Web as an anti-air in a pinch, albeit a fairly short range one (the web will collapse in one round, sure, but it'll take the flier with it).

For low level evocations...

Some level 1 attack spells are competitive with level 2 (non-Concentration) attack spells when upcast, which basically means you have more 'slot versatility' and more room to prepare things.

For example...

- A level 2 Thunderwave does the same damage as Shatter when upcast, and the area isn't much smaller (remember, unlike spheres, cubes affect a square if any part of it covers the square -- which is why they give the example of a 5' cube Cloud of Daggers being able to hit multiple squares), and it comes with a useful rider that you can combo into other things.

Thunderwave combos can come up a fair bit as long as you have good tactical habits. For example, let's say you cast Create Bonfire on some enemies in melee with your frontliner. If they don't want to provoke an OA they might circle around your frontliner but still stay within 10 feet of the bonfire... then you can Sculpted Thunderwave to hit everyone around the frontliner, and push one or more of them through the fire for extra damage. For another example, you can have your Unseen Servant or Familiar drop burning oil squares, and push people into those. For yet another, someone who just spent their movement fighting their way out of a Web might get punted right back into it and have to make a new saving throw.

Don't work too hard to 'force' these things to happen, just take advantage of 'em when they do. The ideal Wizard is an opportunist; a character with a wide toolkit of individually situational effects that, taken as a whole, amount to "I have just the thing for this" coming up with great frequency.

- With 16 Int, a level 2 Magic Missile outdamages Scorching Ray against foes of AC 14 or more, unless you have Advantage. It's also a much better damage type, and has a sheer reliability to its outcome that little else does. Note that this is without Hexblade's Curse or anything like that. If you have Hexblade's Curse, it's even better (much better), but we're not talking about the Hexvoker right now.

- Level 2 Burning Hands outdamages most 2nd level AoE spells (with 4d6 fire/save for half). However it has some disadvantages; Dex-based means it's subject to cover, fire isn't a great damage type, smaller AoE than Thunderwave and less useful rider.

Some other random low level stuff...

- Dragon's Breath is good to put on a minion and is one of the good ways to fill out your bonus action economy. It's not Evocation so you can't Sculpt it, but that's okay since it's usually easy for a familiar to aim it around people anyways.

- Speaking of your familiar, they should be helping out your DPR by giving Advantage to someone. Note that the Help action doesn't require you to stay in range of them; an Owl can use Flyby to swoop in, apply Advantage, and then swoop out to a safer position -- out of reach, in cover, or the like. Somewhere where choosing to hit your familiar is at least enough of an opportunity cost for an enemy that you're getting your 10gp worth (if they can even reach them at all).

Familiars can also do tons of other things, like using caltrops or administering healing potions or the like. They're extra action economy and should be utilized as such.

- You know how Treantmonk had that whole video about how to use Dancing Lights to keep your enemy illuminated while the party remains cloaked in darkness? Well you can do something arguably better without Concentration using Control Flames and handing off superbright Bullseye Lanterns to familiars or unseen servants or the like.

- Unseen Servant is a ritual that lasts an hour without Concentration, and gives you an early use for your bonus action. You can use it to use items; think dropping ball bearings or pouring out a flask of oil or feeding someone a healing potion in an emergency. Remember that you can cast rituals while moving/exploring; you don't need to stand still for 10 minutes, just use your Action every round for 10 minutes.

- Melf's Minute Meteors is another good use of a bonus action. 12d6/save for half is good value for a third level slot even if it's spread out over multiple shots. It's a fairly decent Overchannel in some situations, too (though that's definitely not low level stuff).

- Toll the Dead and Create Bonfire are good cantrips for an Evoker even though they're not Evocation. Potent Cantrip is a bigger bonus to their average output than one might intuitively expect, and they can easily compete with things like Empowered Fire Bolt.

What spells, feats, combos, playstyle, multiclass, magic items and overall tactics can really increase Evokers effectiveness?

magic items

Wand of Magic Missile is pretty nutty: Only Uncommon, can produce up to 7th level slot Magic Missile, doesn't take attunement. So you could hypothetically just wear a whole bandoleer of the things and spam it with Empowered Evocation. There's a reason I nerf that item, if it's available at all.

multiclass
Besides the Hexblade, Cleric 1's a lovely dip. Of the various domains, I recommend...

Death: Always-Twinned Potent Toll the Dead is a very efficient cantrip.
Order: You can give Reactions to people you Sculpt a spell around.
Peace: Really strong for the same reason it's really strong for everyone.
Twilight: Sharable 300 foot Darkvision and Advantage on Initiative. Nice for 'alpha strike' parties.
Life: If and only if you're a Mark of Healing Halfling.
Forge: Less useful if you're in a game where players can be expected to get +1 (or better) gear.
Knowledge: If you just want to crush all of the knowledge checks with Expertise + max Int + Guidance.

For your 3 Cleric cantrips, you should choose Guidance +2 choices that don't really care what your Wisdom is, like Light, Thaumaturgy, or Mending.

feats
+2 Int: You want this.
Alert: Not only is it great to go first as a burst offense / control character, but the "enemies don't get Advantage for being unseen" bit ups your synergy with spells like Fog Cloud, Darkness, and Pyrotechnics (which is notable for being a non-Concentration vision blocker).
Res(Con): Improves your concentration, your hit points (by evening out your Con score), and your Con saves (which are quite common even outside of Concentration). The fact that it scales with proficiency means it only gets more attractive the later the ASI.
Telekinetic: An Int-boosting half-feat that grants a buffed version of an already-useful cantrip, and a very handy bonus action (can be used to auto-break grapples, nudge allies around the map, push people into the hazards you keep leaving around the map, improve kiting, etc).
Fey-Touched: An Int-boosting half-feat that gives you an extra first and second level cast from a good list. For example, picking Gift of Alacrity with this provides a roughly Alert-sized initiative bonus per L1 slot on it (side note: Gift of Alacrity is extra spicy if you went the Hexblade dip route, because you can recharge those slots in an hour, while the spell lasts 8 hours).
Inspiring Leader: Great if you happen to meet the Cha requirement (usually only if you're going for Hexblade). In addition to giving you and your other PCs a good-sized chunk of temp HP every short rest it'll also help the minions (like your familiar, simulacrum, summons, etc).
Warcaster: If you're playing an armored/retributive Evoker who likes to play forward, Warcaster can make your OAs very deadly indeed. Combine with wearing Armor of Agathys / Fire Shield / Contingency / etc. If you don't ever expect to OA, I'd generally go for Res(Con) instead. Or take both, since they synergize.

playstyle
The Goblin race can allow a 'cast then hide as a bonus action' playstyle, and even helps your damage while they're at it.

If you get some armor and retributive spells you can switch in on the front lines when you feel like it, and keep allies safe inside your hazards or the like. And Warcaster can potentially let you do things like a magic missile combo as an opportunity attack. Oh sure, you won't have the most hit points, but you have enough mitigation and retribution abilities that it still works. I've played a game where I replaced both a Fighter and Paladin using something like this and it worked like a charm.

Hazard combos are good on their own, but they're extra strong if you have a team that can exploit them (grapplers, Repelling Blasters, etc etc).

Lots more to talk about here... maybe will say more later...

Merudo

2021-03-07, 01:16 AM

- You know how Treantmonk had that whole video about how to use Dancing Lights to keep your enemy illuminated while the party remains cloaked in darkness? Well you can do something arguably better without Concentration using Control Flames and handing off superbright Bullseye Lanterns to familiars or unseen servants or the like.

Do you even need the familiars and unseen servants to hold the Bullseye Lanterns for you? My understanding is that pointing the Bullseye Lantern away from you, keeps you in darkness - you are not included in the cone of light, so you are not illuminated in any way.

Handling lanterns to familiars and servants carries the additional risk that the minions end up dead, with the lanterns potentially getting destroyed. So your strategy works best at higher level than the early game Dancing Lights.

LudicSavant

2021-03-07, 05:14 AM

Do you even need the familiars and unseen servants to hold the Bullseye Lanterns for you?

The benefit is to have multiple sources of remote lighting that do not reveal your position, or take up one of your hands.

Handling lanterns to familiars and servants carries the additional risk that the minions end up dead, with the lanterns potentially getting destroyed. So your strategy works best at higher level than the early game Dancing Lights.

The remote lighting strategy works from level 1 and can use any kind of carried light, not just bullseye lanterns. You can use torches or even candles. Both cost a paltry 1 copper piece. And lanterns aren't all that pricey either -- Hooded is 5gp, Bullseye is 10gp.

You can also fine-tune the area of any light with Control Flames (making it bigger or smaller), as well as by choosing from a variety of lighting objects as needed. This is one of the cantrip's strengths.