Pathfunder Curse of Crimson Throne Trip build pc too powerful?

[Fyxur]

So we're still early in the campaign pc's just defeated the king of spiders. One of our pc's has done a trip build and is shutting down every combat. Any combatant I throw at the party gets tripped or disarmed or both. Do combat maneuvers stay this powerful or do they drop off? How can I combat this CMB monster? He's a Lore Warden fighter with a whip, tripping my bbeg's from 15 feet away and just locking them down.



Any advice on how to provide a challenge to a 5th player party while this guy's doin his thing?

[Helluin]

I don’t know what he did to max out his CMB but I find that combat maneuver/trip build is not that viable in general. CMD scale very quickly, and Large+ creatures and creatures with multiple feet get a huge bonus in their CMD vs trip. Some creatures can never be tripped.

I’m not familiar with CotCT AP, does it involve a lot of non-humanoid creatures with high Str or Dex? If so, your player might find this tactic less and less useful.

[Xervous]

A tripper’s primary gaps in coverage are ranged attackers, swarms (both literal swarms as the subtype and lots of lesser combatants) and skirmishers that have ways to avoid provoking AoOs.

Things he can’t reach can’t be disabled, things too numerous can’t all be disabled, and things that ignore his off turn actions can still threaten the rest of the party.

Something as simple as filling a room with smoke that grants full concealment at any distance beyond 5ft will probably earn you the hatred of every rogue and ranged character but may***** be used as a one-of twist.

I may be misremembering but iirc creatures without legs like a giant snake or a gelatinous cube are functionality immune to prone. He can still damage them of course.

The purpose of frontline melee can just be to occupy the party’s frontline. If he is busy locking down a few pointy stick users that leaves the rest of the party either cowering in the protective zone of his reach or venturing out unprotected. Archers or casters can strike at the former while mobile combatants can also strike at the latter. You don’t have to threaten the tripper directly, enemies refusing to engage may very well tempt the tripper or others to overextend.

Don’t send singleton opponents at the party, they tend to get trivialized anyways even without a lockdown build.

[Fyxur]

Yep he's got a +14 at level 3 is this legit?

It started when I roll +2 to Combat Maneuvers on the Variant Tiefling Abilities table from that I work from there
first str bonus gives a + 3
tielfing, trait Chain master gives a +2 to CMB for Trip with whip or spiked chain,
took variant ability Bullying: +1 racial bonus on combat maneuver checks to disarm or steal checks, then I was a fighter so high attack bonces, that it for Level 1. Now the fighter type I took is Lore Warden (PFSFG) which gives me two things 1 I get Combat Expertise for free at level two, so I can get improve trip at level 3 (not this is only important since I use a whip if using a tripping polearm its not as important because you'll have more feats to work with) also Lore Warden (PFSFG) gets Maneuver Mastery (Ex) at level three which gives + 2 To CMB and CMD so then my trip CMB with a whip at level 3 looks like this: (Base attack 3) + (Str + 3) + (Combat Maneuvers + 2) + (Chain Master + 2) + (Improved Trip + 2) + (Maneuver Master + 2) = 14 trip note Im not even adding in my weapon focus bonus and Masterwork weapon bonus even if everyone says it counts (because CMB works off the attack bonus) because I'm not sure how you'll feel about it or that bonus would be a 16.


This is what I'm dealing with :D

[Xervous]

Yep he's got a +14 at level 3 is this legit?

It started when I roll +2 to Combat Maneuvers on the Variant Tiefling Abilities table from that I work from there
first str bonus gives a + 3
tielfing, trait Chain master gives a +2 to CMB for Trip with whip or spiked chain,
took variant ability Bullying: +1 racial bonus on combat maneuver checks to disarm or steal checks, then I was a fighter so high attack bonces, that it for Level 1. Now the fighter type I took is Lore Warden (PFSFG) which gives me two things 1 I get Combat Expertise for free at level two, so I can get improve trip at level 3 (not this is only important since I use a whip if using a tripping polearm its not as important because you'll have more feats to work with) also Lore Warden (PFSFG) gets Maneuver Mastery (Ex) at level three which gives + 2 To CMB and CMD so then my trip CMB with a whip at level 3 looks like this: (Base attack 3) + (Str + 3) + (Combat Maneuvers + 2) + (Chain Master + 2) + (Improved Trip + 2) + (Maneuver Master + 2) = 14 trip note Im not even adding in my weapon focus bonus and Masterwork weapon bonus even if everyone says it counts (because CMB works off the attack bonus) because I'm not sure how you'll feel about it or that bonus would be a 16.


This is what I'm dealing with :D

I’m used to dealing with tripping in 3.5e where similar numbers are possible but it is overall far stronger. In PF he has a lot less damage because when you get “trips generate an attack” it costs an AoO, while 3.5 gets it right off improved trip.

Put him in situations where damage is more valuable/impactful than tripping. I’ve detailed that above. Let him trip two or three goblins among ten. Let him trip the phalanx while archers focus the party wizard. Let him run after mounted warriors who are dancing between objectives.

[Eldonauran]

Potions of Fly are relatively cheap. If the character uses this tactic a lot, word gets around especially if the BBEG (or his group) tend to scry or spy on the players.

[Helluin]

Yep he's got a +14 at level 3 is this legit?

It started when I roll +2 to Combat Maneuvers on the Variant Tiefling Abilities table from that I work from there
first str bonus gives a + 3
tielfing, trait Chain master gives a +2 to CMB for Trip with whip or spiked chain,
took variant ability Bullying: +1 racial bonus on combat maneuver checks to disarm or steal checks, then I was a fighter so high attack bonces, that it for Level 1. Now the fighter type I took is Lore Warden (PFSFG) which gives me two things 1 I get Combat Expertise for free at level two, so I can get improve trip at level 3 (not this is only important since I use a whip if using a tripping polearm its not as important because you'll have more feats to work with) also Lore Warden (PFSFG) gets Maneuver Mastery (Ex) at level three which gives + 2 To CMB and CMD so then my trip CMB with a whip at level 3 looks like this: (Base attack 3) + (Str + 3) + (Combat Maneuvers + 2) + (Chain Master + 2) + (Improved Trip + 2) + (Maneuver Master + 2) = 14 trip note Im not even adding in my weapon focus bonus and Masterwork weapon bonus even if everyone says it counts (because CMB works off the attack bonus) because I'm not sure how you'll feel about it or that bonus would be a 16.


This is what I'm dealing with :D

Bullying doesnÂ’t stack with the Tiefling variant trait +2: they are both racial bonus. This doesnÂ’t affect his trip bonus though, just disarm. Otherwise this looks good.

Sounds like he dedicated the a lot of build resources to trip based attacks. Might as well let him have some fun while he could? Flying enemies, spellcasting foes with miss chance, untrippable creatures, and possibly more things that donÂ’t care about trip will start popping up soon anyway. Besides, there are enemies with CR 6-8 and CMD into the mid 30s or 40s vs trip. DonÂ’t think itÂ’s that big of a deal unless this AP features mostly humanoid melee enemies, which wouldÂ’ve gotten screwed over by a web/stinking clots from the wizard anyway.

[Gnaeus]

Also bear in mind that if he had skipped the trip stuff and just gotten a pole arm and maybe a source of enlarge he could just be murdering all his targets instead. As has been pointed out in recent threads, he could have 6 unarmed attacks/round at that level. He could be a wizard casting battlefield control. Heck my verdant bloodline sorcerer had trip numbers only slightly worse than that at 3 on top of full casting.

Now, APs tend to be written for very low op groups. And we can’t determine if he is OP in your group without knowing what the other PCs are doing. But as PF level 3 PCs go it isn’t too broken. He’s playing a fighter, if he’s your optimizer he’s being kind. If you make his build worthless and he rerolls any caster you will regret it.

[Xervous]

Small numbers of humanoids are the ideal encounter for a trip fighter to stomp.

They aren’t generally faster than him.
They won’t have high CMDs.
For this case they’re almost universally vulnerable to disarm.
Due to their low quantity he can get high % coverage on the entire encounter.
Most modules throw melee humanoids at the PCs.

Deviate on any of these to reduce his impact. But don’t invalidate him.

[gijoemike]

I remember that AP. It was quite fun. The king of spiders was at the hunting lodge right?


I suspect this character is about to stop having any fun. Trip is amazing early on as they are an effective TANK. But throw archers, casters, invisible rogues, flying anything against them and suddenly 80% of their build is WORTHLESS. Also, whip doesn't give you AoO at the full range. Where is that coming from? He NEEDS that ability.

Magic/masterwork weapons do add into the CM check as it is an attack.

oozes cannot be tripped
Flying creatures cannot be tripped
anything that prevents the AOO cannot be tripped
Someone who is already prone cannot be tripped. Drunken master anyone?
Falling prone is a free action, there are items and abilities that let one stand up without an AoO
There is a fighting style that reduces the penalties of being prone. (Is it Monkey?)


Imagine for a moment a swashbuckler/rogue type spring attacks forward/tumbles preventing the AoO. Stabs the character. Then suddenly clutches his left breast. And falls to the ground, dead. He appears to have had a heart attack. This is a free action feint followed by falling prone as a free action. Next round he rises from the dead as a free action preventing the AoO and stabs somebody hopefully someone flatfooted.

Now imagine a ranger at 120" out with a longbow and far shot. He moves back with shot on the run luring them closer to the real ambush.

Now imagine 3 rogues and a bard, hovering in the air silently swooping down from the ceiling stabbing you with boot daggers. It is a magical ballet of blood and death. The bard is of course inspiring courage for more damage with his ballet and cast fly/used pots on the ambush party. The rogues are just backup dancers. They all fly off after 1 or 2 rounds.

[AnimeTheCat]

Flying creatures cannot be tripped

Just so I can clarify for myself, are you sure that flying creatures can't be tripped? I was under the impression that specifically magically flying creatures can't, but winged creatures can be tripped as you basically stall them out and cause them to fall for a round (which may cause fall damage and may end up making them prone). This could just be a houserule that I operate under though (I think it's a pretty good one if it is).


Imagine for a moment a swashbuckler/rogue type spring attacks forward/tumbles preventing the AoO. Stabs the character. Then suddenly clutches his left breast. And falls to the ground, dead. He appears to have had a heart attack. This is a free action feint followed by falling prone as a free action. Next round he rises from the dead as a free action preventing the AoO and stabs somebody hopefully someone flatfooted.
I feel like there would also need to be a perform check vs sense motive or perception as feinting in combat is not like faking a faint. Also, the feint would still need to be rolled and may not itself succeed, so that's hardly a guaranteed action which would leave them prone for an attack by the tripper. Good plan, in some aspects, but far from foolproof.


Now imagine 3 rogues and a bard, hovering in the air silently swooping down from the ceiling stabbing you with boot daggers. It is a magical ballet of blood and death. The bard is of course inspiring courage for more damage with his ballet and cast fly/used pots on the ambush party. The rogues are just backup dancers. They all fly off after 1 or 2 rounds.
hit and run or ambush tactics will certainly work though, and are my preferred way to challenge stationary trip builds. That and open areas with no choke points, but plenty of cover (field with tall grass/shrubbery, Forest, large temple hall, throne room, just off the top of my head). Those are my preferred ways to challenge a tripper, open areas with cover and many combatants with a combination or ranged and melee targets who actively avoid direct combat, and hit and run tactics where the attackers fire off a few volleys to chip away at resources and then hightail it out of there.

[Gnaeus]

This seems really cruel to a fighter who probably has no other contribution to his party.

Just so I can clarify for myself, are you sure that flying creatures can't be tripped? I was under the impression that specifically magically flying creatures can't, but winged creatures can be tripped as you basically stall them out and cause them to fall for a round (which may cause fall damage and may end up making them prone). This could just be a houserule that I operate under though (I think it's a pretty good one if it is)..

IIRC that’s the 3.5 rule.

[AnimeTheCat]

This seems really cruel to a fighter who probably has no other contribution to his party.
IIRC that’s the 3.5 rule.

probably... I've played far more 3.5 than I have pathfinder.

As for being cruel to the fighter, I didn't mean to insinuate that I do that for every encounter, but I do it enough as is necessary to ensure that the rest of my players feel meaningfully engaged. If the fighter isn't trivializing the game for the rest of the group, I'll only throw this is occasionally to keep the fighter on their toes and give them the occasional difficult decision so that they don't fall in to MMO action cycles.

[gijoemike]

Just so I can clarify for myself, are you sure that flying creatures can't be tripped? I was under the impression that specifically magically flying creatures can't, but winged creatures can be tripped as you basically stall them out and cause them to fall for a round (which may cause fall damage and may end up making them prone). This could just be a houserule that I operate under though (I think it's a pretty good one if it is).


This is the rule for tripping from d20pfsrd, so I can copy and paste

You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Trip feat, or a similar ability, initiating a trip provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.

If your attack exceeds the target’s CMD, the target is knocked prone. If your attack fails by 10 or more, you are knocked prone instead. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has. Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.

I added the bold part. I had to go check the rules because that was the rule in 3.5. Was this something that pathfinder changed? No, it is not. If they are flying in any way, no trip, period, the end. The stalling of a natural flying creature I think was made part of the stand still feat. I suspect the PC will want to retrain a few feats and instead go for stand still later on. Especially if that is the case.



I feel like there would also need to be a perform check vs sense motive or perception as feinting in combat is not like faking a faint. Also, the feint would still need to be rolled and may not itself succeed, so that's hardly a guaranteed action which would leave them prone for an attack by the tripper. Good plan, in some aspects, but far from foolproof.

Oh, this is all skill check based. That is 1/2 of the fun. If every action/check was a guarantee that would be boring as heck. There are several ways to get move action/free feint checks/ bluff checks in combat. Usually they only work one time. Which is exactly what would happen in this case. Also I totally expect that guy to get stabbed on the ground. But for that round he cannot be tripped and AoO to death.



hit and run or ambush tactics will certainly work though, and are my preferred way to challenge stationary trip builds. That and open areas with no choke points, but plenty of cover (field with tall grass/shrubbery, Forest, large temple hall, throne room, just off the top of my head). Those are my preferred ways to challenge a tripper, open areas with cover and many combatants with a combination or ranged and melee targets who actively avoid direct combat, and hit and run tactics where the attackers fire off a few volleys to chip away at resources and then hightail it out of there.



This seems really cruel to a fighter who probably has no other contribution to his party.


Is it cruel, maybe. It is possibly metagamey. How does the npc's know that a super tripper is coming? Also, encounters like these will be 0 fun for said fighter. As a player I would hate it if this happened more than 1 or 2 times in the entire campaign. Heck, I would hate it if I was a different PC in the same party. I would feel bad for the person playing the tripper.

BUT, there is an important lesson that the PC of the fighter must learn. DO NOT BE A ONE TRICK PONY. In this case a hyper specialized, at the expense of other things one trick pony. Tripping is too easily shutdown (incorporeal, flying). Spending feats, skills, magic items, targeted class abilities, mundane items just to do a very specific limited trick and only that one trick is a terrible idea. Now if the PC has backup plans, more power to him/her.

[AnimeTheCat]

This is the rule for tripping from d20pfsrd, so I can copy and paste

You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Trip feat, or a similar ability, initiating a trip provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.

If your attack exceeds the target’s CMD, the target is knocked prone. If your attack fails by 10 or more, you are knocked prone instead. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has. Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.

I added the bold part. I had to go check the rules because that was the rule in 3.5. Was this something that pathfinder changed? No, it is not. If they are flying in any way, no trip, period, the end. The stalling of a natural flying creature I think was made part of the stand still feat. I suspect the PC will want to retrain a few feats and instead go for stand still later on. Especially if that is the case.
Thanks for going and grabbing that, however you are partially incorrect about 3.5's rules. Rules Compendium (pg 145) specifically states that "A winged creature can be tripped, and if it is, it falls as if it didn't maintain its minimum forward fly speed." I was partially incorrect that they just fall, it has specific rules for how they fall, but you definitely can 100% trip winged creatures.


Is it cruel, maybe. It is possibly metagamey. How does the npc's know that a super tripper is coming? Also, encounters like these will be 0 fun for said fighter. As a player I would hate it if this happened more than 1 or 2 times in the entire campaign. Heck, I would hate it if I was a different PC in the same party. I would feel bad for the person playing the tripper.

BUT, there is an important lesson that the PC of the fighter must learn. DO NOT BE A ONE TRICK PONY. In this case a hyper specialized, at the expense of other things one trick pony. Tripping is too easily shutdown (incorporeal, flying). Spending feats, skills, magic items, targeted class abilities, mundane items just to do a very specific limited trick and only that one trick is a terrible idea. Now if the PC has backup plans, more power to him/her.

I mean, that's more or less how I feel about it too. It's only really problematic if the encounters never let the party use their cool abilities, but if only some encounters do it, then it's just a challenge to be overcome.