Level adjustment for stupid high hardness

[Raishoiken]

So someone i know is building a creature that is essentially an animated object with 2hd made out of a heavily augmented obdurium, the hardness of which landed around 120. If there would be a level adjustment for that much hardness, what abouts would that be?

[JNAProductions]

So someone i know is building a creature that is essentially an animated object with 2hd made out of a heavily augmented obdurium, the hardness of which landed around 120. If there would be a level adjustment for that much hardness, what abouts would that be?

What's the LA on a Troll-Blooded Gheden with Acid and Fire Immunity?

Hardness 120 is basically immunity to death by HP damage. If you know how to handle that, then assign what you think is an appropriate LA. If you do not, tell your player something along the lines of "Cool idea-please don't actually use it."

[Melcar]

So someone i know is building a creature that is essentially an animated object with 2hd made out of a heavily augmented obdurium, the hardness of which landed around 120. If there would be a level adjustment for that much hardness, what abouts would that be?

Oerthblooded, Pure Ore Obdurium is the hardes material in the game - and this is before enchantments! Case in point has hardness 120... create an dwarvencraft item out of this, it increases even more... so too does it if you add enchantment bonuses or spells like augment object og hardness... Since there is no limit to how hard an object can be because of spells... the answer to your question is LA 0!

[Kayblis]

Don't give it LA. It's not a character, and it shouldn't be a cohort. It can be a minion, like any other animated object or summon or undead, and it doesn't need a LA rating. LA is something made to allow players to play a nonstandard race. It's not supposed to adjust on the fly for all creatures, or even exist for all creatures. This animated object is a creature created by someone, not a race to be played.

[Demidos]

I'd say there's no good Level Adjustment for that. Level adjustments, CR, and ECL are generally designed as a rough rule of thumb for the DM, and often find it hard to calculate fringe cases. A CR 3 shadow can slaughter a 20th level fighter without magic gear. Outright immunities to such wide categories as magic or physical damage require an encounter to be built around it. I would suggest to your friend to give the object to your DM to run it as an encounter rather than as a PC. Then they get to enjoy watching their build but also not unbalance the game. If you meant as a DM encounter, i'd peg it around level 5 -- it is pretty indestructible, but given its 2 HD and animated object status it's probably slower than the party (they can run away) and not a life threatening encounter (it can't kill them before they can flee).

[FauxKnee]

If you meant as a DM encounter, i'd peg it around level 5 -- it is pretty indestructible, but given its 2 HD and animated object status it's probably slower than the party (they can run away) and not a life threatening encounter (it can't kill them before they can flee).

Adding on to Demidos' remark, this would make for a great "puzzle combat." The PCs would have to avoid the monster while accomplishing their goal, trap it in a room, lure it into an environmental feature, or similar to "win" in the intended way. If they happen to have one of the hard counters (like the Crusader or Warblade attack maneuvers that ignore hardness, various forms of sonic damage, etc.) they get rewarded for their preparation with an easy win.

[noob]

It can be killed with hp damage just not with damage inferior to 120 that gets reduced by hardness.
The really dangerous things tends to deal stuff that is not regular damage(mind control, poisoning, sol spells, ability damage,), to exceed significantly 120 damage per hit or deal stuff to which hardness does not apply(like disintegrating or imploding) what you counter is dangerous things with loads of low damage attacks.
It is good however if you have a quite complete panel of immunities.

[unseenmage]

Consider what CR opponents who will routinely bypass that hardness are and set the LA so that those are appropriate encounters.

Alternatively, apply an appropriate CR to the creature the character is playing as accounting for such high hardness and use the PF method where CR = starting ECL.

After hardness gets high enough the creature might as well be made of a force effect. In fact a force effect would be easier to bypass in several ways.

Keep the above in mind while assigning the ECL.

[Bronk]

So someone i know is building a creature that is essentially an animated object with 2hd made out of a heavily augmented obdurium, the hardness of which landed around 120. If there would be a level adjustment for that much hardness, what abouts would that be?

Is it actually an animated object under a permanancy effect? If so, and they're using Melcar's Oerthblooded Pure Ore Obdurium trick, they should be aware that Oerthblood is "a highly magical metal", and the spell doesn't allow magical materials to be animated.

Otherwise... maybe check what level a wizard could give himself the same protections and use that as a benchmark?

[noob]

I also think you should make the level adjustment lower once the creature gets abilities that would allow to replicate the hardness.

[Maat Mons]

If you're going to True Mindswitch (or whatever) into a permanently-animated object, make sure that both the Permanency and the Animate Objects spells were cast by a Dweomerkeeper with the Initiate of Mystra feat.

But being a Haunt-Shifted Necropolitan is achievable without such specialized and high-level NPCs to help.

[Raishoiken]

Is it actually an animated object under a permanancy effect? If so, and they're using Melcar's Oerthblooded Pure Ore Obdurium trick, they should be aware that Oerthblood is "a highly magical metal", and the spell doesn't allow magical materials to be animated.

Otherwise... maybe check what level a wizard could give himself the same protections and use that as a benchmark?


idk what melcar's trick is specifically, but they are indeed using oerthblood pure obdurium. Speaking of which:

since oerthblooded metal is i fact highly magical, shouldn't it lose it's properties in anti-magic technically?


Oerthblooded, Pure Ore Obdurium is the hardes material in the game - and this is before enchantments! Case in point has hardness 120... create an dwarvencraft item out of this, it increases even more... so too does it if you add enchantment bonuses or spells like augment object og hardness... Since there is no limit to how hard an object can be because of spells... the answer to your question is LA 0!


should the hardness for that be 120 following "real world" multiplying or does hardness follow the same rules for damage, making it instead 90?

[Melcar]

idk what melcar's trick is specifically, but they are indeed using oerthblood pure obdurium. Speaking of which:

since oerthblooded metal is i fact highly magical, shouldn't it lose it's properties in anti-magic technically?




should the hardness for that be 120 following "real world" multiplying or does hardness follow the same rules for damage, making it instead 90?

There is no “trick” its a simple matter of calculating the effect of having pure ore obdurium in a oerthblooded version...

Ergo, obdurium in its purest form has twice the hardness and hit points of normal obdurium... have that be oerthblooded, it’s further becomes stronger. So in reality it’s actually one time things are multiplied...

And therefore it follows the rules for real world math... also hardness is a real thing!

[Raishoiken]

There is no “trick” its a simple matter of calculating the effect of having pure ore obdurium in a oerthblooded version...

Ergo, obdurium in its purest form has twice the hardness and hit points of normal obdurium... have that be oerthblooded, it’s further becomes stronger. So in reality it’s actually one time things are multiplied...

And therefore it follows the rules for real world math... also hardness is a real thing!

So looking at it that way it would make a lot of sense, there were only two hang ups i had i think when i was checking the materials earlier

1: since hardness is essentially just the abstract value of hitpoint damage you need to dish out in order to start actually dealing real damage, i figured it'd be treated as the same sort of abstract multiplier that critical hits use as well

2: if 1 was true, i would still agree 100% rather than just mostly if pure ore didn't say that items made with at least x amount of it rather than just made from it entirely, making me think it's also an additive substance similar to oerthblood

point 2 actually seems mostly irrelevant, seeing as how all of the metals involved in the weapon could be alchemically oerthblooded, even if the "pure" portion of it had to be blooded seperately

[Fouredged Sword]

Oerthblooded, Pure Ore Obdurium is the hardes material in the game - and this is before enchantments! Case in point has hardness 120... create an dwarvencraft item out of this, it increases even more... so too does it if you add enchantment bonuses or spells like augment object og hardness... Since there is no limit to how hard an object can be because of spells... the answer to your question is LA 0!

Technically there is Riverine that is just flat our immune to HP damage entirely. It doesn't have a higher hardness on account of it not having a hardness at all, just straight up immunity to "HP damage and most spells"

[noob]

Technically there is Riverine that is just flat our immune to HP damage entirely. It doesn't have a higher hardness on account of it not having a hardness at all, just straight up immunity to "HP damage and most spells"

But then disintegrate just makes it vanish so you have to carry a ring of counterspelling or something.

[unseenmage]

But then disintegrate just makes it vanish so you have to carry a ring of counterspelling or something.

Yes. Disintegrate would.make an object with stupid high hardness just vanish.

[noob]

Yes. Disintegrate would.make an object with stupid high hardness just vanish.

No because you are a creature and there is no clause saying disintegrate makes creature vanish without calculating damage.
While riverine have an explicit clause saying it is destroyed by disintegrate and it does not specifies it stops being the case if it is a creature made out of riverine.

[Doctor Despair]

On the subject of Riverine, a Fiend of Possession carrying a weapon with Spellblade (Disintegrate) can possess a riverine object. The riverine object is now part of its body, but is still explicitly an object. Anyone targeting the object with Disintegrate will trigger Spellblade and get it hurled right back at them.

[noob]

On the subject of Riverine, a Fiend of Possession carrying a weapon with Spellblade (Disintegrate) can possess a riverine object. The riverine object is now part of its body, but is still explicitly an object. Anyone targeting the object with Disintegrate will trigger Spellblade and get it hurled right back at them.

Spell blades are single use however so while it is an awesome trick it will need 9000 gp per use(you will need at most like 3 uses per fight to basically make the opponent give up because who tries to disintegrate more than 3 times when it gets bounced at them each time?).

[Doctor Despair]

Spell blades are single use however so while it is an awesome trick it will need 9000 gp per use(you will need at most like 3 uses per fight to basically make the opponent give up because who tries to disintegrate more than 3 times when it gets bounced at them each time?).

Fortunately, spellblades are not single-use. (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?507075-Spellblade-Enchantment) There's a lot of useful discussion on it there.

Edit: Basically, there's no dispute over whether or not you are permanently immune to the spell. A stringent DM might rule that, as you said, the redirect is a one-time use effect, but it is just as reasonable to say that it is always on.

[Quertus]

Really not sure what the question is here. An animated object isn't normally sentient, and thus is not viable as a PC, and thus there is no need for a LA.

If the PC is creating and somehow inhabiting this body? Their LA remains whatever it was in their original body.

If they are animating it, and bringing it with them? Why would it "level up" under that scenario?

Unless the player is saying "I'd like to make a sentient one of these for my *next* character", I'm just not seeing any way where the question is valid.

(Also, curious how spell blade could be worded that it grants immunity, and bounces a spell, maybe once, maybe every time.)

[Doctor Despair]

(Also, curious how spell blade could be worded that it grants immunity, and bounces a spell, maybe once, maybe every time.)


The wielder of a spellblade weapon is immune to a single spell chosen at the time the weapon is created. The selected spell must be one that is targeted against the wielder, not one that affects an area or creates an effect. When the wielder is next subjected to the chosen spell, the weapon absorbs it. On his next turn, he can opt to either let the spell drain harmlessly away or direct it at a new target as a free action.

Two clauses:

* The wielder of a spellblade is immune to a spell

* When the wielder is next subjected to the chosen spell, he can direct it at a new target on his next turn

The argument over whether it bounces once or every time is with regard to "next." The thread I quoted above encapsulates it better than I can from mobile, but it boils down to: does next mean the next after creation, or the next after the round you last used it? It isn't worded conclusively either way, so that part is DM fiat, but you are, at least, immune to the spell regardless.

[Darg]

Two clauses:

* The wielder of a spellblade is immune to a spell

* When the wielder is next subjected to the chosen spell, he can direct it at a new target on his next turn

The argument over whether it bounces once or every time is with regard to "next." The thread I quoted above encapsulates it better than I can from mobile, but it boils down to: does next mean the next after creation, or the next after the round you last used it? It isn't worded conclusively either way, so that part is DM fiat, but you are, at least, immune to the spell regardless.

Abilities with charges declare how many charges they possess. The ability never declares the number of charges. Ergo, infinite use. The only thing debatable is the RAI of infinite redirections per round or 1 redirect per round.