Can one Miracle derail a campaign?

[ChudoJogurt]

I am considering giving the ECL 6 party a one-use lvl 20 Miracle artifact in one of the next loots.

They are currently traveling through not!Moria with ~300 strong tribe of mostly civilians and lower-level NPCs. The idea is for them to travel through the curse/undead/trap infested dungeon for a whole, until they find a pass through, while managing said tribe with the threat of hunger, lack of medicine for the wounded and internal strife due to stress.

And Im both afraid that even with a stricter reading of the Miracle they might manage to bypass the entire arc, or that if they are unable to do so, they will be sorely disappointed because you kinda expect 9th level spell to be, well, miraculous in power.

Anyone had experiences with similar scenarios? Any good advice?

[Rynjin]

Depends on the god, but typically yes. Miracle is Wish with zero of the limitations or drawbacks. When you give one out, be prepared to deal with the consequences.

Sometime things turn out well. In my recently completed Carrion Crown campaign, the party accepted a Wish from a Glabrezu (for various reasons it was a good deal; not screwing them over screwed over his erstwhile master even more) and they used it to bring the party's long dead mentor, Lorrimor, back to life.

This was unexpected, and interesting. It could have been less of both if thought processes had gone differently.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by ChudoJogurt
I am considering giving the ECL 6 party a one-use lvl 20 Miracle artifact in one of the next loots.

What would be the purpose for doing this? As already noted, at best this could bypass much of what you've been planning, if not send the campaign in a totally different direction.

Without a really compelling reason to give the PCs this artifact, I would skip it altogether.

[Zanos]

While Miracle is theoretically more powerful than Wish, keep in mind that you request a Miracle. You have some pretty extensive leeway to fulfill a miracle, especially a very powerful one, in accordance with the deities needs.

[ChudoJogurt]

What would be the purpose for doing this? As already noted, at best this could bypass much of what you've been planning, if not send the campaign in a totally different direction.

Without a really compelling reason to give the PCs this artifact, I would skip it altogether.

Well, my idea would be to use it to get out of one encounter or fix one problem. Ressurrecting a dead partymember/key NPC, killing a hard monster, moving through some problem which gets them stuck, etc.
I'm just not sure if Im gauging the power of a Miracle right.

A sort of reassurance that if things go really south, they have an ace in the hole, or have some really nice bonus if they choose so.
But I dont want it to resolve the whole arc or change things, like, strategically if you know what I mean.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by ChudoJogurt
Well, my idea would be to use it to get out of one encounter or fix one problem. Ressurrecting a dead partymember/key NPC, killing a hard monster, moving through some problem which gets them stuck, etc.

If they need help getting through encounters, there are easier ways to nudge them along. Using a Miracle is probably overkill for that sort of thing.

[ChudoJogurt]

Well, it has a bonus of being very versatile and fits with the lore.
Maybe a Limited Miracle (equivalent to a Limited Wish)?

[Xervous]

Well, my idea would be to use it to get out of one encounter or fix one problem. Ressurrecting a dead partymember/key NPC, killing a hard monster, moving through some problem which gets them stuck, etc.
I'm just not sure if Im gauging the power of a Miracle right.

A sort of reassurance that if things go really south, they have an ace in the hole, or have some really nice bonus if they choose so.
But I dont want it to resolve the whole arc or change things, like, strategically if you know what I mean.

Ban its use for longer term summoning then. Greater Planar Ally can pull a Planetar which just so happens to cast as a 17th level cleric. At 1k per HD for a days work I think 14k payment is a joke for the plot arcs it could singlehandedly resolve. Undead creation may be another hazard, though they’ll think twice on not being able to control it.

[Bronk]

You could instead use a Wand of Wonder (or maybe one of the better variants), or perhaps the artifact could grant a few Limited Wishes instead of one Miracle?

Or, you could turn the Miracle into being more like a Wish by specifying that it's an artifact dedicated to a trickster god and no one ever knows how things will turn out.

Or or... you could go all in and replace it with a Deck of Many Things.

[ChudoJogurt]

I always assumed that Wish and Miracle are roughly equivalent. Both are 9th level spells of prary spellcasters, and have most of their wording almost exactly the same. Is that not the case?

And Xervous, thanks for mentioning long term summoning. I have not thought of that and thats exactly the sort of thibg I would want to avoud.

[Rynjin]

I always assumed that Wish and Miracle are roughly equivalent. Both are 9th level spells of prary spellcasters, and have most of their wording almost exactly the same. Is that not the case?

Here's the difference. Wish has this clause:


You may try to use a wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so is dangerous. (The wish may pervert your intent into a literal but undesirable fulfillment or only a partial fulfillment.)

Miracle does not. In fact, the only explicit limitation Miracle has is this:


In any event, a request that is out of line with the deity’s (or alignment’s) nature is refused.

That is a much, much more predictable set of restrictions to work around. A god will never **** you over on a Miracle: the worst they can ever do is say "No".

[tyckspoon]

I always assumed that Wish and Miracle are roughly equivalent. Both are 9th level spells of prary spellcasters, and have most of their wording almost exactly the same. Is that not the case?

And Xervous, thanks for mentioning long term summoning. I have not thought of that and thats exactly the sort of thibg I would want to avoud.

The biggest difference between the two (strictly speaking about the mechanical text) is that Miracle doesn't cost XP when you use its normal functions, only for the more freeform 'greater requests.' Wish has a more extensive lists of things it can reliably/safely do, but it always costs XP to cast. When you're casting them from an item and so aren't paying your own XP cost anyway they're pretty similar, although if your DM likes to play Monkey Paw Genie Wish has more things it is explicitly capable of achieving without being screwed with/having your God decide they don't want to grant that Miracle in that way.

The differences in actual gameplay tend to come from the different sources of each spell - Miracle is asking a god to intercede directly on your behalf, while Wish is either using your own energy or that of another being to perform changes directly on the world. Traditionally, this is usually taken to mean that a Miracle for a 'greater effect' is more likely to be granted or at least turn out with something close to what you wanted, because the being you're asking for it is presumed to be positively inclined to you (it's your god, after all) while Wishes are more dangerous because you're usually getting them from beings that have.. personality quirks, at best, and even if you're just casting it yourself you are staring down the barrel of a lot of tropes about hubris and magically over-reaching for things you would have been better off to leave alone. (Personally, my practice is that if the Wish caster is spending their own XP/casting from an item then the worst you will get is a lesser effect than you asked for - you won't be actively screwed over by a Wish unless it's being granted by another being that wants to do so. Hard-casting your own Wishes is fine, be careful what you ask for from Efrits and demons.)

..either way when you're having an item cast the spell for you, the easiest way to handle it is probably to just rule that you are restricted to the safe Wish list/non-XP using Miracles. This will still allow your party to apply a 9th-level spell solution to a 6th-level party problem, but will cut out something like "Wait, why don't we just Wish/Miracle us all past the dungon?"

[El Dorado]

Maybe using the miracle draws the attention of something that would have otherwise not noticed the caravan, so while it gets them out of this situation, it is potentially raising the stakes farther down the line.

[Ghen]

Perhaps you might grant them a miracle-like effect with the wording pre-determined by something else. This takes control of the request out of the PC's hands and basically lets you grant only what you want them to have, but no more.

[AvatarVecna]

A wish-granting item breaks plots. A miracle-granting item is just a plot device. It doesn't have the limitations of wish, but it also doesn't have the control - this is a god acting directly on your behalf, and that means that maybe it's not gonna go at all the way you want it to for reasons of divine politics or the personal beliefs of the deity in question.

[Psyren]

Depends on the god, but typically yes. Miracle is Wish with zero of the limitations or drawbacks.

It has one major drawback (which may not be one from the DM's chair), which is basically that the god can simply say "no." No legalese, no perversion, the DM only has to let a request through that they agree with. The PCs may even then want (or need) to seek out a way to contact that deity to find out more about the refusal.


@OP: A potentially interesting way of pulling this off in my opinion would be to have the artifact attuned to a specific deity, who is different than the one(s) the characters worship. Not necessarily one that is evil or outright antagonistic to them, but one whose goals/motivations don't necessarily perfectly align with the PCs. Say, a chaotic god of revelry, or an isolationist nature deity that disdains civilization, or a lawful and didactic deity that wants to teach the PCs responsibility, or a deity of a specific race. Any deity capable of granting cleric spells can also answer a Miracle so you have a lot to choose from.

[AnimeTheCat]

It has one major drawback (which may not be one from the DM's chair), which is basically that the god can simply say "no." No legalese, no perversion, the DM only has to let a request through that they agree with. The PCs may even then want to seek out a way to contact that deity to find out more.


@OP: A potentially interesting way of pulling this off in my opinion would be to have the artifact attuned to a specific deity, who is different than the one(s) the characters worship. Not necessarily one that is evil or outright antagonistic to them, but one whose goals/motivations don't necessarily perfectly align with the PCs. Say, a chaotic god of revelry, or an isolationist nature deity that disdains civilization, or a lawful and didactic deity that wants to teach the PCs responsibility, or a deity of a specific race. Any deity capable of granting cleric spells can also answer a Miracle so you have a lot to choose from.

I'm going to piggyback off of Psyren, because I largely agree with that assertation, and also say this. You know your party better than any of us internet people. You know what they would or would not do, or at least can reasonably intuit what they may or may not do in any given situation. There is nothing preventing you from simply having whatever deity is granting the miracle say "no", and there's also nothing preventing you from creating some kind of Monkey's Claw situation from the Edgar Allen Poe poem. Basically, the Miracle gets granted, but it causes a problem elsewhere. For example, if the party uses it to kill a particularly powerful entity that they oppose, a similarly powerful entity from the opposing force also perishes. This would tie in well with the item being attuned to a lawful neutral deity that demands an equivalent exchange on the cosmic level. In this way, even if the party does bypass a story arc, one door closes but another opens.

[Silly Name]

I am considering giving the ECL 6 party a one-use lvl 20 Miracle artifact in one of the next loots.

They are currently traveling through not!Moria with ~300 strong tribe of mostly civilians and lower-level NPCs. The idea is for them to travel through the curse/undead/trap infested dungeon for a whole, until they find a pass through, while managing said tribe with the threat of hunger, lack of medicine for the wounded and internal strife due to stress.

And Im both afraid that even with a stricter reading of the Miracle they might manage to bypass the entire arc, or that if they are unable to do so, they will be sorely disappointed because you kinda expect 9th level spell to be, well, miraculous in power.

Anyone had experiences with similar scenarios? Any good advice?

I mean, if I were your players and after finding myself in such a dire situation I were to find a powerful artifact that grants me the opportunity to immediately solve the issue at hand... Why wouldn't I? It seems the most obvious application of Miracle in this situation, to me.

A sorta-similar situation came up in my own game last week: long story short, the PCs needed a quick and safe way to transport 200 men from the Feywild back to the Prime Material, so they contacted a powerful wizard ally of theirs who used Wish to teleport everyone to safety after the PCs had brought everyone together in a safe spot.

The narrative power of spells like Miracle and Wish is immense. There are some differences as explained upthread, but basically if they're given to the players it means that they absolutely can derail a campaign or even wreck the world with a select few words. A possible balance to this power is not making the PCs its true wielders - as happened with my Wish-casting wizard, and which is sorta already baked in the rules for miracle.

If you want to keep it "safe", you could make it so the artifact only provides a "Lesser Miracle": some options stripped out, other brought down in power, and implied limitations on the scope of requests that can be fulfilled.

The other option is making it an object of Wish/Limited Wish. That spell has an explicit clause that means freeform wishes may (and are likely to) be twisted, so players approach wishes with more caution.

[ChudoJogurt]

Hrm. See, I wasnt sure that Miracle was supoosed to do that. I kinda ssumed that the effects should be roughly in line with any other 8th-9th level spell.

I suppose I can just hold them to the "free" version of the spell (which is imitationg up to 8th level spell, or an effect similar in powrer and scope), and not the "ask any masive favor" part.
And also exclude the Greater Planar Ally, I guess.

[rel]

If I was a player in the described scenario, I would assume that I was being given miracle to trivially resolve the entire travel storyline so we could move on to doing something else. And I'm pretty sure I could manage that too.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by rel
If I was a player in the described scenario, I would assume that I was being given miracle to trivially resolve the entire travel storyline so we could move on to doing something else. And I'm pretty sure I could manage that too.

This highlights an underlying problem with giving players access to Miracle--they'll expect it to behave like a full Miracle, not a stripped-down, leaned-out version.

So there may be some sharp disappointment if the players expect to use their Miracle to what they believe is its full potential--and then are blocked or stymied by what is essentially GM fiat. OP knows his table better than we do, but in some groups this could lead to frustration if expectations around Miracle aren't met.

I really think Miracle is overkill for this scenario, and there are probably easier ways to resolve the situations the OP is concerned about. If the GM is already willing to help the party through rough patches with an appeal to a deity, then that can be done through narrative on the GM's part, without handing players an in-game mechanism to create unexpected complications.

[aglondier]

Miracle is granted by the diety...or handled by a sufficiently powerful agent of said diety. If you don't want to handwave the journey, either don't give them the miracle, or have a lesser agent of the diety do his utmost "best" to fulfil it with more limited resources.
Anachronistic hiking boots for everyone, a horn 'o plenty, decanter of endless water, a lantern archon guide through rough areas, all enemies have 10% less hitpoints, a hero feast every few days, a dozen random villagers receive divine inspiration and spontaneously become level 1 clerics...

[Fouredged Sword]

Teleport can derail a campaign if the campaign isn't set up to deal with the fact that the players can simply bypass many encounters.

Miracle can also derail a campaign.

But it doesn't have to.

And you know what the single best way to ensure it doesn't?

Talk to your players. Let them know your concerns. Ask them nicely not to derail your campaign with the big shinny thing you are going to give them.

Communication of expectations is key at resolving these kinds of table issues. Trust between players and DM is paramount to ensure that you can DM without worry about hours of work being wasted and they can play without worry that their DM will quit in frustration.

[Vaern]

There's countless ways to derail a campaign, but using a few miracle to do so can make it much easier and have a much more immediate effect than, say, jacking your charisma through the roof and using social skills to reshape a kingdom's government and society in a way that results in major issues in the world becoming nonexistent. If you're giving your players a miracle mid-campaign you're basically giving them permission to derail it, unless you've somehow hinted at instructions for the intended use of this miracle.
If you don't want to limit your players but you also don't want them to derail the story, give them the miracle as a reward at the end of a major story arc. You're then free to use the time before the next session to plan a new story arc around the fallout of their miracle, if they use it in a way that has a significant impact on your setting. It may result in a scenario where they need to search for a new source of miracles to un-miracle their original miracle.

[rel]

Talk to your players. Let them know your concerns. Ask them nicely not to derail your campaign with the big shinny thing you are going to give them.

Communication of expectations is key at resolving these kinds of table issues. Trust between players and DM is paramount to ensure that you can DM without worry about hours of work being wasted and they can play without worry that their DM will quit in frustration.

This is a good enough point that it bears repeating. If you want to give the players something cool but you don't want them to use it to fundamentally change the status quo then talk to them about it.

When in doubt, talk to your players.