Turtling up - Team-based defensive tactics

[Greywander]

All too often, we tend to think about optimization only in terms of a single character acting alone (or rather, as part of a nebulous and vague party of indeterminate numbers and builds). Team-based tactics are often just so much more effective than each person doing their own thing. The way 5e is set up, a good offense is often the best strategy, but sometimes a solid defense can give you the longevity you need to shift the odds in your favor. So I just wanted to explore some build combos that complement each other nicely and allow the party to optimize their survival.

Ancients, Devotion, or Redemption Paladin
The paladin is of course the cornerstone of a good defense strategy. The Aura of Protection allows you to boost the saving throws of the entire party. The paladin can also cast Bless to further bolster saving throws. If possible, the paladin should try to obtain a Holy Avenger, as this grants them another aura that gives the party advantage on saving throws against spells and magical effects (sadly, dragon breath doesn't count), for maximum saving throw benefits.

You have a couple of choices for subclass, depending on what benefits you want. Ancients gives the party resistance to spell damage. Sadly, this doesn't include magical effects, nor does it include mundane damage, e.g. non-magical fire. So it's really only useful when facing enemy spellcasters, so YMMV. Devotion gives immunity to charm. Hopefully, with all of your bonuses to saving throws, no one would get charmed anyway, but it's sometimes good just to make sure. The benefit of Redemption is the combination of being able to take damage in the place of one of your party members while also regenerating HP. It's sort of a reactive at-will healing, in a way, and can greatly extend how long you can survive as a party.

Artillerist Artificer or Twilight Cleric
Both of these give similar benefits, but with some of the numbers changed around. The artificer will use their Protector cannon to grant the entire party some temp HP, between 6 and 13. This isn't a lot, but they can do it every round, and it will add up over a long battle. The cannon lasts for 1 hour, and you can resummon it with just a 1st level spell slot. If you burn every spell slot you have, you can keep the cannon up for a total of 16 hours (at 20th level). Once you reach 15th level, your cannon now gives everyone half-cover, or, in other words, a +2 to their AC and DEX saves. Pretty nice.

Where the artificer wins in endurance, the cleric wins in raw power. You only have a limited number of channel divinities (up to 3), and Twilight Shroud only lasts for 1 minute, but it grants a whopping 1d6 + cleric level temp HP (or allows you to remove a charm or fear effect). Once you reach 17th level, it also gives half-cover.

Because we're bunched up around our paladin, enemies are encouraged to use AoE attacks against us, making this distributed temp HP that much more effective. Since both cleric and artificer can give the temp HP every round, it would actually be more effective for the enemy to focus fire one PC, so that the least amount of damage is getting negated by temp HP. Either way, we win.

Peace Cleric 1/Abjuration Wizard X
The Abjurer brings the obvious benefit of their ward that they can extend to a party member. Because the ward takes damage before you (or your temp HP) do, you should always extend your ward to a party member any time you get the chance, especially if that party member has already exhausted their temp HP. Abjurers are also the best Counterspellers in the game, except maybe sorcerers with the Distant Spell or Subtle Spell metamagic.

Cleric dips are very common on wizards as they stand to gain a lot and lose little. The addition of medium armor and a shield will greatly boost their AC. The Peace domain, in particular, allows us to give our party a pseudo-Bless effect with Emboldening Bond that will stack with Bless for even more benefit to our saving throws. It lasts for 10 whole minutes (which is hopefully the entire combat), and we can use it a number of times equal to our proficiency bonus.

Cavalier Fighter
Polearm Master and Sentinel are obvious picks here. The key is to have a frontliner that can stop the enemy in their tracks before they reach the party. Sadly, this doesn't truly shine until 18th level, but then it really shines.

Life Cleric
The most efficient healer. When the enemy finally eats through all of your wards and temp HP, you need someone to patch you back up and keep you on your feet. Healing isn't actually very efficient for anyone that isn't a Life cleric. That said, our team already has a number of healers on it; they all have better uses for those spell slots, but they're nice to have as a backup. The Life Cleric is also an excellent tank; not only does the Shoot the Medic First trope draw enemies' attack toward our healer, but our Life cleric will also heal themselves any time they heal a party member.

So, the tactic is to cluster around the paladin. Everyone is within range for the auras, as well as the artificer's/Twilight cleric's temp HP spam. Any saves we make have to make it through Aura of Protection, Bless, and Emboldening Bond (plus half-cover for DEX saves), making failed saves rare. Everyone is wearing medium or heavy armor and using a shield (except the cavalier, who is probably using a two-handed polearm), and within the half-cover. You can further improve defenses by using the Darkness/Devil's Sight combo (it's still unclear if Darkness is opaque, but if it isn't then you don't don't even need Devil's Sight if your enemies are outside the darkness), or Blind Fighting/Fog Cloud (Eversmoking Bottle works, too). Both of these make it impossible for enemies without specific senses to see you, thus making you untargetable by most spells and imposing disadvantage on attack rolls against you.

The ideal formation is probably a triangle, with the Cavalier at the front tip, and the paladin and Life cleric at the back tips. Wizard goes in the middle, and artificer is between the cleric and paladin. The Cavalier will prevent anyone from getting around them to attack the wizard, and the cleric and paladin will limit how many enemies can get to the artificer. Alternatively, a plus sign formation might also work, again with the wizard in the middle. If the paladin is a Redemption paladin, you might consider putting them in the middle, as they only regen HP while below half HP, making them more vulnerable to getting focus fired.

Offensively, both artificer and wizard can blast, and the paladin and cavalier can use a longbow if there's no melee combat. At 15th level, the artificer can also summon a second cannon, allowing you to use one of your offensive cannons with your Protector cannon. Bless + Emboldening Bond allows our martial types to use the -5/+10 feats in order to further boost damage, making up for some of what we've lost. Your damage output will probably be slightly hindered by adopting this defensive formation, but the defensive benefits will probably outweigh the drop in damage.

What are some ways we could improve on this tactic? Is there another class/subclass I overlooked that would fit better than the ones listed here? Or that could be added to this party to even further maximize defense? Have you ever used a tactic like this in play, and if so, how did it work?

[Ir0ns0ul]

I really like Ancestral Guardian, although compete with Cavalier.

My Ancient Paladin with Sentinel did a killer duo with our Ancestral Guardian.

[MrCharlie]

One tactic I like to use is to cast globe of invulnerability as an abjurer. It stops hostile counterspells in unless the target is willing to walk into the globe, which is generally a terminal decision if they are the kind of enemy whom can counterspell. Even against beefy counterspellers they have to live in a defined area. While it's certainly situational, it's a way of winning the counterspell wars which high level wizard duels devolve into.

Class addition wise, you want a clockwork sorcerer, or better yet a divine soul. They can double as counterspell patrol. But they cast extended Aid and death ward the night before the party enters danger, and the party gets 8 hours of extra HP and one get-out-of-death free card, at limited cost to the caster (Whom recharges in the meantime). Clockwork sorcerer can't extend death ward, but the fact that they have a full suite of spells otherwise probably offsets that. Aid alone it something like a 10-15% HP boost when cast at the highest possible level the night before, depending on the exact level of the party.

[Sigreid]

It's good to have solid defenses, but it really is true that the best defense, crowd control and healing is killing your opponent before they can do harm.

[JonBeowulf]

All too often, we tend to think about optimization only in terms of a single character acting alone (or rather, as part of a nebulous and vague party of indeterminate numbers and builds). Team-based tactics are often just so much more effective than each person doing their own thing. The way 5e is set up, a good offense is often the best strategy, but sometimes a solid defense can give you the longevity you need to shift the odds in your favor. So I just wanted to explore some build combos that complement each other nicely and allow the party to optimize their survival.
<snip>...


Preach it! I realized early on that my group was uninterested in tactical teamwork so I brought a Vengeance Paladin to the next campaign and led by example. Teamwork improved fairly rapidly after that.

Offense is king because dead things don't take actions. Defense is still important, though, because rolling death saves does not help your party at all.

[Greywander]

Preach it! I realized early on that my group was uninterested in tactical teamwork so I brought a Vengeance Paladin to the next campaign and led by example. Teamwork improved fairly rapidly after that.

Offense is king because dead things don't take actions. Defense is still important, though, because rolling death saves does not help your party at all.
Interesting, what did you do with your vengeance pally that helped build teamwork? I think if I wanted to be an example of a team player, I'd bring something like a grappler and hold enemies to the ground while the rest of the party rapidly stabs them to death.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Interesting, what did you do with your vengeance pally that helped build teamwork? I think if I wanted to be an example of a team player, I'd bring something like a grappler and hold enemies to the ground while the rest of the party rapidly stabs them to death.

I'll second this, not because I doubt that you improved teamwork but because I want to know specifically why a Vengeance Paladin was the difference.

When I think of teamwork oriented subclasses, Vengeance is pretty close to the bottom of the list. Was it simply that your party members needed to be more aggressive in combat?

[MaxWilson]

It's good to have solid defenses, but it really is true that the best defense, crowd control and healing is killing your opponent before they can do harm.

Well, it depends. In some cases there are enemies whom you can't defeat through overwhelming offense (because 5E offense doesn't scale that far) but whom you can defeat through good defense. Classic example: the 5E Tarrasque. A 7th level PC cannot possibly one-round the Tarrasque through overwhelming offense (I doubt even a whole party of PCs could), so if you're going to kill it, it has to be through leveraging defense, so that you get enough attacks to add up to something that can kill it.

In 5E, doubling your defense is generally "cheaper" and easier to achieve than doubling your offense, so defensive strategies have a lot to recommend them, but they also generally require more intra-party cooperation and teamwork. Even then, there's a time and a place to nova on offense, e.g. when facing a half-dozen glass cannons like Flameskulls or Mind Flayers, but having a solid defensive base IME means you're more likely to have resources to do those novas and you'll get better results overall.

[J.C.]

So, the tactic is to cluster around the paladin. Everyone is within range for the auras, as well as the artificer's/Twilight cleric's temp HP spam. Any saves we make have to make it through Aura of Protection, Bless, and Emboldening Bond (plus half-cover for DEX saves), making failed saves rare. Everyone is wearing medium or heavy armor and using a shield (except the cavalier, who is probably using a two-handed polearm), and within the half-cover. You can further improve defenses by using the Darkness/Devil's Sight combo (it's still unclear if Darkness is opaque, but if it isn't then you don't don't even need Devil's Sight if your enemies are outside the darkness), or Blind Fighting/Fog Cloud (Eversmoking Bottle works, too). Both of these make it impossible for enemies without specific senses to see you, thus making you untargetable by most spells and imposing disadvantage on attack rolls against you.


Cube of Force (on the paladin) synergizes with this tactic. Combine with Heavy Obscurement and Cube of Force set to 4 and your turtle tactic can shut off spells altogether. Your team just steps out of the spell barrier to cast a spell then steps back in to benefit from the barrier.

[Sigreid]

Well, it depends. In some cases there are enemies whom you can't defeat through overwhelming offense (because 5E offense doesn't scale that far) but whom you can defeat through good defense. Classic example: the 5E Tarrasque. A 7th level PC cannot possibly one-round the Tarrasque through overwhelming offense (I doubt even a whole party of PCs could), so if you're going to kill it, it has to be through leveraging defense, so that you get enough attacks to add up to something that can kill it.

In 5E, doubling your defense is generally "cheaper" and easier to achieve than doubling your offense, so defensive strategies have a lot to recommend them, but they also generally require more intra-party cooperation and teamwork. Even then, there's a time and a place to nova on offense, e.g. when facing a half-dozen glass cannons like Flameskulls or Mind Flayers, but having a solid defensive base IME means you're more likely to have resources to do those novas and you'll get better results overall.

Yeah, my comment was partially about not ignoring the offensive part. You can have nearly perfect defenses and you won't win if you can't dish it out well enough.

[JonBeowulf]

I'll second this, not because I doubt that you improved teamwork but because I want to know specifically why a Vengeance Paladin was the difference.

When I think of teamwork oriented subclasses, Vengeance is pretty close to the bottom of the list. Was it simply that your party members needed to be more aggressive in combat?

I went Vengeance 'cause that fits my style. I showed them how to control the battlefield by being in the right place at the right time firing off the right abilities to win the fight and not just doing damage to whichever enemy I wanted to hit. It let me tank my way and be more vocal about tactics. I RP in combat, too, so my previous char didn't say much when he saw others being foolish (for reasons that will distract from the thread).

The group was fairly aggressive but completely disorganized. Two of them would focus on an enemy but then switch to another one without finishing it off. Low AC would wander too close to the "front". Rogue would ignore opportunities to get adv. Just really frustrating stuff.

Anyway, pure DPS offense will get you through a majority of encounters but you'll eventually fall to a better organized enemy... especially if that enemy knows you rush headlong into battle.