Worst 5e spells?

[Yakk]

Cantrip True Strike
L1 Witch Bolt, Arms of Hadar, Illusory Script, Detect Poison and Disease, Purify Food and Drink
L2 Continual Flame, Barkskin, Find Traps
L3 Wall of Water, Flame Arrows, Wall of Sand, Hunger of Hadar
L4 Stone Skin, Grasping Vine, Elemental Bane, Phantasmal Killer
L5 Control Winds, Enervation, Immolation, Dispel Evil & Good, Danse Macabre
L6 Circle of Death, Drawmij's Instant Summons, Find the Path
L7 Mordenkainen's Sword
L8 Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting
L9 Weird

Any other competitors?

[stoutstien]

most of these are not bad spells just situational. look at hunger of hadar. it sucks it never scales but it does a lot of grunt work for stacking aoe effects and damage. its one of the few spells that can damage twice a turn and half of that doesn't even get a save. it blocks sight and blinds for good measure on top of causing DT. warlocks have very little as far as slots per rest so when you cast a spell its nice that it will do something even if it never quite does everything.

[ATHATH]

Don't forget Flame Blade.

[Naanomi]

I disagree with a few you list (utility magic that isn’t often useful but cannot easily be replicated in other ways has value) but... my own additions:

Infestation, Crown of Madness,

[MrStabby]

Dust devil.

Tiny area of effect. Tiny damage. Str saves are one of the ones a lot of monsters are good at at this level.

Worst thing is that the save is at the end of turn so an enemy can just move 5ft and avoid the spell.

Its a second level concentration spell


It could see use as mobile concielment occasionally... if you do a lot of adventuring in deserts or similar terrain. And enemies dont move much. And if it won't hurt your team more than the enemy. And if fog cloud didn't exist...

[kingcheesepants]

I've never thought of purify food and drink and detect poison/disease as being bad spells. Sure I wouldn't bother preparing them most days but they can be handy in certain situations such as dealing with mystery illness, assassins poisoning folks, monsters or environments that are causing food to go bad. Illusory script is another one that I would say is more niche than bad, it's a ritual so you don't have to prepare it or spend slots on it and it can be really handy when dealing with espionage and other more cerebral threats. Dispel good/evil is one that I actually do prepare and use fairly regularly. It depends a lot on the kinds of challenges you'll be facing but it's essential when dealing with for example fey and fiends that use mind controlled minions that you don't want to be fighting. In general I'd say that a spell is bad if there are other spells that do the same thing at an equal or better level while also having a smaller resource cost. Having an effect that's not generally useful but is not replicated by other spells would make it a niche rather than a bad spell.

[MrCharlie]

Cantrip True Strike
L1 Witch Bolt, Arms of Hadar, Illusory Script, Detect Poison and Disease, Purify Food and Drink
L2 Continual Flame, Barkskin, Find Traps
L3 Wall of Water, Flame Arrows, Wall of Sand, Hunger of Hadar
L4 Stone Skin, Grasping Vine, Elemental Bane, Phantasmal Killer
L5 Control Winds, Enervation, Immolation, Dispel Evil & Good, Danse Macabre
L6 Circle of Death, Drawmij's Instant Summons, Find the Path
L7 Mordenkainen's Sword
L8 Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting
L9 Weird

Any other competitors?
Detect poison and disease, purify food and drink, wall of sand, control winds, dispel evil and good, and most certainly Danse Macabre are not bad spells.

The first two are situational, but not bad. Wall of Sand blocks line of sight and is the earliest spell to do so-I reluctantly agree that wall of water is bad compared to wind wall, and thus not useful. Control winds is situational but not bad, and can help in its situation. Dispel evil and good is actually necessary in certain situations regarding extraplanar travel, if the party hopes to survive unchanged.

I don't even know why Danse Macabre is on this list. It's actually really strong.

[JackPhoenix]

Detect poison and disease, purify food and drink, wall of sand, control winds, dispel evil and good, and most certainly Danse Macabre are not bad spells.

The first two are situational, but not bad. Wall of Sand blocks line of sight and is the earliest spell to do so-I reluctantly agree that wall of water is bad compared to wind wall, and thus not useful. Control winds is situational but not bad, and can help in its situation. Dispel evil and good is actually necessary in certain situations regarding extraplanar travel, if the party hopes to survive unchanged.

I don't even know why Danse Macabre is on this list. It's actually really strong.

Don't forget Continual Flame, AKA "Darkness? What Darkness?"

[Yakk]

Don't forget Continual Flame, AKA "Darkness? What Darkness?"


If any of this spell's area overlaps with an area of light created by a spell of 2nd Level or lower, the spell that created the light is dispelled.
Continual Flame is a 2nd level spell. It is dispelled whenever its light overlaps the darkness spell.

I am completely open to removing stuff from the list. I took a few of other people's lists and did a quick sniff test if they where completely on crack or not.

...

I suspect Danse is on the list because Animate Dead generates 5 servants with a 24 hour duration with the same spell slot and no concentration, and can be maintained using even lower level slots day by day. Danse undead gain +5 to hit and damage, and are a few extra, but...

[JackPhoenix]

Continual Flame is a 2nd level spell. It is dispelled whenever its light overlaps the darkness spell.

So, obviously, you upcast it to level 3.

[MrCharlie]

Continual Flame is a 2nd level spell. It is dispelled whenever its light overlaps the darkness spell.

I am completely open to removing stuff from the list. I took a few of other people's lists and did a quick sniff test if they where completely on crack or not.

...

I suspect Danse is on the list because Animate Dead generates 5 servants with a 24 hour duration with the same spell slot and no concentration, and can be maintained using even lower level slots day by day. Danse undead gain +5 to hit and damage, and are a few extra, but...
'cept danse is an action, and +5 to hit and damage is doubled hit and damage.

Continual flame is one of those spells that looks better or worse depending on the class. The real problem is that it's situational-magical darkness is the kind of thing most adventurers might encounter once, and only a few will encounter it often enough for continual flame to be worth it when upcast. Given the opportunity cost to learning it as a wizard, and the cost of casting, and it's probably not worth it.

A cleric, on the other hand, just needs a slow day and 50 gold to get a darkness dispeller then can casually toss into the backpack and forget about, so it looks much better to them.

[Snails]

Protection from Energy (https://5thsrd.org/spellcasting/spells/protection_from_energy/).

Nobody would say it would be strong as a 2nd level spell, because Concentration is a significant limitation.

Only if I knew I was fighting a Red Dragon or similar in the next room would I consider casting this spell. And even in that sitation, I probably would not bother to spend a 2nd level slot for this, unless I was desperate to protect one particular PC, because there are many good choices for Concentration.

[stoutstien]

Protection from Energy (https://5thsrd.org/spellcasting/spells/protection_from_energy/).

Nobody would say it would be strong as a 2nd level spell, because Concentration is a significant limitation.

Only if I knew I was fighting a Red Dragon or similar in the next room would I consider casting this spell. And even in that sitation, I probably would not bother to spend a 2nd level slot for this, unless I was desperate to protect one particular PC, because there are many good choices for Concentration.

thunder and acid resistance are rare. it is a 3rd level spell though.

[stoutstien]

'cept danse is an action, and +5 to hit and damage is doubled hit and damage.

Continual flame is one of those spells that looks better or worse depending on the class. The real problem is that it's situational-magical darkness is the kind of thing most adventurers might encounter once, and only a few will encounter it often enough for continual flame to be worth it when upcast. Given the opportunity cost to learning it as a wizard, and the cost of casting, and it's probably not worth it.

A cleric, on the other hand, just needs a slow day and 50 gold to get a darkness dispeller then can casually toss into the backpack and forget about, so it looks much better to them.

for artificers with SSI you can light up the world with enough down time.

[Kvess]

The worst spells in 5e are the ones that should be class features. Eldritch Blast, Hex and Hunter's Mark are near-mandatory, which means they crowd out other options on a limited list of cantrip and spell selections.

Also annoying are Contagion and Flesh to Stone which, as written, require three failed saves and up to five rounds of combat to take full effect.

[JoeJ]

Also annoying are Contagion and Flesh to Stone which, as written, require three failed saves and up to five rounds of combat to take full effect.

That's only annoying when you're the caster. When you're the target, it's a pretty good feature.

[Kvess]

I feel like Contagion and Flesh to Stone would be better spells if they worked more like Banishment: Takes effect immediately on a fail and becomes permanent if the caster concentrates for a full minute.

[kazaryu]

The worst spells in 5e are the ones that should be class features. Eldritch Blast, Hex and Hunter's Mark are near-mandatory, which means they crowd out other options on a limited list of cantrip and spell selections.

Also annoying are Contagion and Flesh to Stone which, as written, require three failed saves and up to five rounds of combat to take full effect.

I feel like Contagion and Flesh to Stone would be better spells if they worked more like Banishment: Takes effect immediately on a fail and becomes permanent if the caster concentrates for a full minute.

that is how it works. the saves only determine duration. otherwise its a spell attack roll and boom, they're afflicted.


Your touch inflicts disease. Make a melee spell attack against a creature within your reach. On a hit, you afflict the creature with a disease of your choice from any of the ones described below.
At the end of each of the target’s turns, it must make a Constitution saving throw. After failing three of these saving throws, the disease’s effects last for the duration, and the creature stops making these saves. After succeeding on three of these saving throws, the creature recovers from the disease, and the spell ends

bolding mine. the first clearly states they're immediately afflicted. the second states that they recover, thus implying that there's something to recover from. the confusion i think comes from the fact that this spell is fairly unique in its mechanics. we don't really have any other examples like it so its easy to misread due to the way other saving throws tend to work.


Cantrip True Strike
L1 Witch Bolt, Arms of Hadar, Illusory Script, Detect Poison and Disease, Purify Food and Drink
L2 Continual Flame, Barkskin, Find Traps
L3 Wall of Water, Flame Arrows, Wall of Sand, Hunger of Hadar
L4 Stone Skin, Grasping Vine, Elemental Bane, Phantasmal Killer
L5 Control Winds, Enervation, Immolation, Dispel Evil & Good, Danse Macabre
L6 Circle of Death, Drawmij's Instant Summons, Find the Path
L7 Mordenkainen's Sword
L8 Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting
L9 Weird

Any other competitors?
before i get started i wanna define how im evaluating things, because its not exactly clear. i think you're talking about worst in terms of combat benefit? or rather, thats how some of the people that you've borrowed from defined it. Rather: i prefer to look at spells in the contexts they can be used. obviously a disproportionate part of DnD is combat, and such things that don't directly impact combat are going to be somewhat niche. Im choosing to not count that against spells because its not really the spells fault the rest of the rules don't support non-combat.

plz note: if its not a spell i specifically talk about, then its one that i agree with on your list.
cantrip: truestrike, resistance.

resistance has some very niche uses. but odds are, if you know you're going to make a saving throw there are better things you can do to improve your odds.

1st:
-arms of hadar: AoE reaction removal? sucks thats its a strength save but its still going to reduce opportunity attacks you take. also useful if your DM is using reaction heavy templates. for example a battlemaster-esque monster. i agree its probably below average. but its definitely not among the 'worst' imo.

illusory script: straight up broken for an espionage style character/campaign. particularly if coupled with magic aura. the ability to pass a message with basically no chance of it being deciphered (because you didn't use a cipher) is very potent in the situation this spell was designed to address. and its a ritual so it doesn't even have to cost a spell slot. (or a prepared spell for wizards)

detect poison and disease: not only is it great in a plague like scenario (super niche, i know) but it also detects poisonous creatures. Keep in mind, its obviously open to interpretation by the DM what a 'poisonous' creature is. i mean, i get that irl there's an objective definition, but personally i doubt that WoTB really thought about the difference between 'poisounous' and 'venomous' when they wrote the spell. regardless, with poison being one of the most common damage types in the game, its fair to say that this spell can be used pretty well against a lot of different creatures.

2nd:
continual flame: obviously theres the niche use of being anti-darkness. However, think of the economical benefits. you can easily create everburning torches. obviously somewhat DM permissive, but pair this with some form of artisan skill and you should be able to make a pretty penny off of it.

3rd:
flame arrows: a 3rd level spell slot for 12d6 fire damage? albeit over multiple rounds, but a pair of archers can burn through the 12 ammo pretty quickly. it also doesn't have the limitation that, for example elemental weapon, does where it needs to be used on a mundane weapon so it can be used even if the party is looted. now, to be clear: there are some pretty busted 3rd level spells out there. This is not one of them. However its far from the worst.

hunger of Hadar: has already been defended quite a bit in this thread so i won't belabor the point too much. but its an area denial spell...a big one. at 3rd level. definitely not one of the worst things out there. However, like all area denial spells, its easy to misuse.

Wall of sand: see above.

4th.

stoneskin: I get it, its concentration, and by level 9 a lot of the monsters you fight are going to be dealing magical damage. But most of their minions aren't. Even still: dragons (easily one of the most iconic bad guys in DnD) don't deal magical damage. There are probably other high tier monsters that don't, i haven't looked through everything. The point is it just gets more niche, never useless. It probably doesn't scale too well into higher tiers though.

grasping vine: im going to defend grasping vine not because its think its *good* but i think that it does something rare, and any time you have a spell thats unique in its effect, you gotta be careful about dismissing it. in this case forces movement. and 20 feet of it. thats alot of movement. there are problems with it, sure. But its also one of the few spells that allows for forced movement.

elemental bane: biggest problem with this is that its not a sorcerer spell. But even without that, its still a solid spell for a blaster type character. particularly a thematic blaster like a 'pyromancer'. the bonus damage can be procc'd multiple times a round if you set up recurring damage. obviously an optimizer is just gonna prepare multiple damage types. but similar to grasping vine this spell does something unique.

aaaand...at this point i got bored doing this lol. hopefully my perspective helps!

[JackPhoenix]

that is how it works. the saves only determine duration. otherwise its a spell attack roll and boom, they're afflicted.

That's not how it works anymore. It was errata'd because the original wording was unclear and against the RAI, and they've added poisoned condition before the disease takes hold..

"Your touch inflicts disease. Make a melee spell attack against a creature within your reach. On a hit, the target is poisoned.

At the end of each of the poisoned target's turns, the target must make a Constitution saving throw. If the target succeeds on three of these saves, it is no longer poisoned, and the spell ends. If the target fails three of these saves, the target is no longer poisoned, but choose one of the diseases below. The target is subjected to the chosen disease for the spell's duration."

[kazaryu]

That's not how it works anymore. It was errata'd because the original wording was unclear and against the RAI, and they've added poisoned condition before the disease takes hold..

"Your touch inflicts disease. Make a melee spell attack against a creature within your reach. On a hit, the target is poisoned.

At the end of each of the poisoned target's turns, the target must make a Constitution saving throw. If the target succeeds on three of these saves, it is no longer poisoned, and the spell ends. If the target fails three of these saves, the target is no longer poisoned, but choose one of the diseases below. The target is subjected to the chosen disease for the spell's duration."

Oh....i was not aware of that. That is dumb and from this moment forth i choose to ignore it.

But yes, in that case from the perspective of raw its a really weak spell...guaranteed 3 rounds of poisoned on a if you land a spell attack? Awesome use of a 5th level spell slot. Good grief wotc.

Edit: tbh, id be willing to bet that they heard there was some confusion, and when they went back to reread it they fell into the same trap most people do (including me for a while) when reading the original wording and just went 'oh yeah, that must be what it meant'. But thats just the opinion if some ******* on the internet so..

[JNAProductions]

Oh....i was not aware of that. That is dumb and from this moment forth i choose to ignore it.

But yes, in that case from the perspective of raw its a really weak spell...guaranteed 3 rounds of poisoned on a if you land a spell attack? Awesome use of a 5th level spell slot. Good grief wotc.

Poisoned is a potent condition. The main issue is how many creatures are immune to it.

But taken as "The disease works immediately," it's basically a death sentence in a 5th level slot.


The creature begins to bleed uncontrollably. The creature has disadvantage on Constitution Checks and Constitution Saving Throws. In addition, whenever the creature takes damage, it is Stunned until the end of its next turn.

So not only do they have disadvantage on the saves to get rid of it, meaning it'll likely take more than three turns to get rid of it, any time they take damage they get stunned. That's a death sentence if the fight isn't OVERWHELMINGLY hard for the PCs.

[kazaryu]

Poisoned is a potent condition. The main issue is how many creatures are immune to it.

But taken as "The disease works immediately," it's basically a death sentence in a 5th level slot.



So not only do they have disadvantage on the saves to get rid of it, meaning it'll likely take more than three turns to get rid of it, any time they take damage they get stunned. That's a death sentence if the fight isn't OVERWHELMINGLY hard for the PCs.

oh, im aware. both that one and the vulnerability one are incredibly potent, but its also a 5th level spell. and while poisoned is a decent condition, but at lvl 9? and its cleaned by a second level spell? naahh. I'd rather fix the actual diseases so they're not broken then adjust the actual casting mechanic so that the spell is trash. maybe....maaaybe have it be progressive. the initial spell poisons the target. then one failure makes the disease take effect. or a weakened for of the disease. the second failure is the full disease. 3rd failure is then duration. so there's a chance you only get 1 round with the disease, but you're also highly likely to get that round (especially if the disease takes full effect on only 1 failure).

[Contrast]

oh, im aware. both that one and the vulnerability one are incredibly potent, but its also a 5th level spell. and while poisoned is a decent condition, but at lvl 9? and its cleaned by a second level spell? naahh. I'd rather fix the actual diseases so they're not broken then adjust the actual casting mechanic so that the spell is trash. maybe....maaaybe have it be progressive. the initial spell poisons the target. then one failure makes the disease take effect. or a weakened for of the disease. the second failure is the full disease. 3rd failure is then duration. so there's a chance you only get 1 round with the disease, but you're also highly likely to get that round (especially if the disease takes full effect on only 1 failure).

Its also not concentration and the enemy can't just use a single legendary save to ignore the effect - they're guaranteed poisoned for 3 turns if it lands. My main gripe about the spell is honestly the touch attack. Poisoned is mostly good against melee combatants and running into combat with them isn't always a great idea.

[kingcheesepants]

Nobody has defended Drawmij's Instant Summons yet, but I would like to say that it's so close to being a spell I would actually want to have. You can cast it on your stuff and then have that stuff immediately appear in your hand. Cast it on your spellbook, your staff, any other important gear you own. If for whatever reason you don't have your stuff with you but need it, then bam you just summon it straight to your hand. The main problem with the spell is that it has a material component, is a one time use and requires 1000GP. Sharply limiting the actual uses for the thing.

If you didn't need the material component then you'd be able to use it if for example when you were captured, but since you need those sapphires in hand, well good luck getting the guards to let you keep them. Bringing your gear back to you if you're somewhere where you weren't allowed to carry your equipment in (for example a party) but find yourself needing it suddenly, is a good use of the spell but 1000GP per item is a pretty steep cost and for a one time use is it really worth it? Maybe if you're super rich but otherwise probably not. You can't even cast it on a bag of holding or a handy haversack since those both weigh too much. You can cast it on a portable hole, but you can take a portable hole with you into any place that you can bring the sapphire so that doesn't really help a lot. I guess you can cast it on your important stuff and then keep the sapphires in your base or demiplane along with your clone jar. Then if and when you die you'll be able to retrieve your gear right away.

Anyways if it was for example a reusable command word instead of a 1 time use sapphire I'd be all over that spell. But as it stands it is so niche as to be bad since the only half decent use I can think of requires you to be literally dead first.

[Mork]

So, obviously, you upcast it to level 3.

At high level I got it even better. Have the cleric cast it at level 7 (higher than most darkness effects). On a glove. Turn inside out if you don't want light, otherwise have a portable light that doesn't require hands and overcomes all magical darkness tricks.
On a wizard? not so good, but a cleric can just prepare a single time during some downtime :P

[Democratus]

So, obviously, you upcast it to level 3.

Isn't is still a 2nd level spell, no matter what slot you use to cast it?

[LudicSavant]

Continual Flame is actually used fairly commonly by optimizers.

For a prepared caster, knowing and casting a spell on a downtime day for 50gp, just once, is often a far smaller opportunity cost than using up a cantrip known slot on Light. Moreover, you can arm the entire party with Continual Flames upcast to 3rd level or more... in which case anyone in the party can illuminate magical Darkness indefinitely.


Isn't is still a 2nd level spell, no matter what slot you use to cast it?

Nope.



When a spellcaster casts a spell using a slot that is of a higher level than the spell, the spell assumes the higher level for that casting. For instance, if Umara casts magic missile using one of her 2nd-level slots, that magic missile is 2nd level.

Effectively, the spell expands to fill the slot it is put into.

[heavyfuel]

Protection from Energy (https://5thsrd.org/spellcasting/spells/protection_from_energy/).

Nobody would say it would be strong as a 2nd level spell, because Concentration is a significant limitation.

Only if I knew I was fighting a Red Dragon or similar in the next room would I consider casting this spell. And even in that sitation, I probably would not bother to spend a 2nd level slot for this, unless I was desperate to protect one particular PC, because there are many good choices for Concentration.

Protection from Energy is one of those spells that is just bad every way you look at it. It's 3rd level, it only grants Resisstance, to only one character, which you must touch, with your action, and you have to maintain Concentration, and there's no upcasting.

It really needs to be buffed in order to be worth it over Absorb Elements.

I'd either make it a Bonus Action, at a range, upcastable to affect one additional character per level, or I'd remove Concentration.

Cue someone coming up with a convoluted situation where PfE is absolutely amazing and it's definitely worth preparing, only to realize you can come up with a convoluted situation where Which Bolt is the best thing ever.


That's only annoying when you're the caster. When you're the target, it's a pretty good feature.

Actually, it's not annoying if you're the caster. I say that because if you're the caster then you're never going to cast Flesh to Stone because it's a completely useless spell, and if you don't cast it, then you don't get annoyed by how utterly irrelevant your choices have made you.

[J-H]

Circle of Death looks like a mediocre fireball at first glance, except it's not. It's necrotic, requires a CON save instead of DEX, and covers a 60' radius/120' diameter circle. That's triple the radius of fireball, ~11304 sqft vs 1256 sqft of coverage. You can hit most of a typical battlemat on a single casting, making it uniquely useful as a spell for wiping out small to mid sized armies of low-level enemies.

Of course, you do have to find that 500gp material component, but at least (I think) it's a focus and not consumed.

[LudicSavant]

Continual Flame is a 2nd level spell. It is dispelled whenever its light overlaps the darkness spell.

I am completely open to removing stuff from the list. I took a few of other people's lists and did a quick sniff test if they where completely on crack or not.

Some things that need a second sniff:

Continual Flame: For aforementioned reasons (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24884340&postcount=27).

Detect Poison and Disease and Purify Food and Drink: It is no exaggeration to say that these rituals would be complete game changers for humanity.

Dispel Evil and Good: This is one of the very few ways to end possession.


Circle of Death looks like a mediocre fireball at first glance, except it's not. It's necrotic, requires a CON save instead of DEX, and covers a 60' radius/120' diameter circle. That's triple the radius of fireball, ~11304 sqft vs 1256 sqft of coverage. You can hit most of a typical battlemat on a single casting, making it uniquely useful as a spell for wiping out small to mid sized armies of low-level enemies.

Of course, you do have to find that 500gp material component, but at least (I think) it's a focus and not consumed.

I'd say that the trouble for Circle of Death is that Otiluke's Freezing Sphere is superior (it hits that same 60' diameter AoE for 10d6 damage, too, but lacks the material component, has a longer range, and perhaps most importantly allows for action economy shenanigans).

However, not everyone who has Circle of Death on their list has Freezing Sphere on their list. Someone like a Warlock might actually consider it as a Mystic Arcanum if they just want to hit a huge area.

[Darzil]

Detect Poison and Disease and Purify Food and Drink: It is no exaggeration to say that these rituals would be complete game changers for humanity.
And they are on Clerics, who can just change their spell list for the following day if they are needed (unless the targets will die today for the lack, of course).

[Amnestic]

Nope.

There is apparently some weirdness to do with upcast spells not counting as higher spell levels re: Globe of Invulnerability, which might be where the trip up has come from.

[LudicSavant]

There is apparently some weirdness to do with upcast spells not counting as higher spell levels re: Globe of Invulnerability, which might be where the trip up has come from.

Globe of Invulnerability is very specifically an exception to the general rule.

[Darzil]

There is apparently some weirdness to do with upcast spells not counting as higher spell levels re: Globe of Invulnerability, which might be where the trip up has come from.
Ignore me I'm wrong

[Democratus]

Globe of Invulnerability is very specifically an exception to the general rule.

Thanks! I found the general rule on p.201: "Casting a spell at a higher level".

[Yakk]

Arms of Hadar is a point blank AOE that isn't ally friendly. So you have to get up close and personal, and be isolated from your allies, to deal meh damage on a strength save. And the rider ... well, is mostly useful for walking out of melee.

I haven't seen Hunger of Hadar working well. It doesn't scale; it caps out at 4d6 damage/round. And you have to pin them or they only take 2d6 damage. I guess they are 40' of movement from the edge and they are blinded, so it is a form of action denial.

Stone skin remains with the concentration issue.

Elemental bane has the problem that it is a saving throw, and even if it works you then have to work really hard to get decent damage out of it. If you are addicted to one damage type, you probably want a more reliable way to penetrate resistance; and 2d6 per turn isn't that much additional damage, unless you go "radiant mafia" style stacking. I get their fear of this spell, I just think it is nerfed enough that without someone doing full party charop it sort of sucks, and with full party charop ... it is mediocre.

Grasping vine I can see being strong in a few narrow situations. Like, there is a 10' wide huge canyon and a 10' wide walkway beside it, and you use it to do save-or-die attacks on creatures. Or, you mix it with hunger of hadar and some other movement reduction abilities.

But a 4th level spell known and slot and a concentration slot when cast make it only really useful when it is really strong, and it isn't easy to know when that happens. I can see it sitting as a know spell for 3 levels, tried to use it twice to little effect, before the PC gives up and retrains it.

Revisions as yet:

Cantrip True Strike, Infestation
L1 Witch Bolt, Arms of Hadar, Illusory Script
L2 Flame Blade, Barkskin, Find Traps, Dust Devil
L3 Wall of Water, Flame Arrows, Hunger of Hadar, Protection from Energy
L4 Stone Skin, Grasping Vine, Elemental Bane, Phantasmal Killer
L5 Enervation, Immolation
L6 Circle of Death, Drawmij's Instant Summons, Find the Path
L7 Mordenkainen's Sword
L8 Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting
L9 Weird

[Naanomi]

Revisions as yet:

Cantrip True Strike, Infestation
L1 Witch Bolt, Arms of Hadar, Illusory Script
L2 Flame Blade, Barkskin, Find Traps, Dust Devil
L3 Wall of Water, Flame Arrows, Hunger of Hadar, Protection from Energy
L4 Stone Skin, Grasping Vine, Elemental Bane, Phantasmal Killer
L5 Enervation, Immolation
L6 Circle of Death, Drawmij's Instant Summons, Find the Path
L7 Mordenkainen's Sword
L8 Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting
L9 Weird

Illusory Script is a ritual, which makes it basically free marginal utility for wizards/tomelocks

Barkskin and Stoneskin have fringe use to support Beastmaster Pets

Immolation is the only fire spell of its level, for anyone interested in a full pyromancer (very fringe use, I know... probably does still belong on a list like this)

Drawmij's Instant Summons is a utility spell that you only need every so often, but can be prepped so early (and ritual cast) that it is a nice trick to have to reclaim a spellbook or to be tricksy in various ways

Find the Path is *VERY* niche, but nothing else really replicates it better

[Kemev]

look at hunger of hadar

Yeah, I actually really like the spell. Besides the points already mentioned, being a battlefield control Warlock is really fun, and hunger is a great spell for it. Depending on what feats and invocations you want to stack, varying combos of Lance of Lethargy / Grasp of Hadar / Repelling Blast / Telekinetic give you the potential to stick multiple targets in an near-inescapable tar pit.

As far as spells that should be on the list, most of the Paladin smite spells are pretty bad. Besides generally being worse than using the smite class feature, they also need concentration and most have minimal secondary effects. There's a couple that have worthwhile riders or fit certain class combos (Banishing Smite, Wrathful Smite), but Searing Smite and friends are garbage.

[kingcheesepants]

Illusory Script is a ritual, which makes it basically free marginal utility for wizards/tomelocks

Barkskin and Stoneskin have fringe use to support Beastmaster Pets

Immolation is the only fire spell of its level, for anyone interested in a full pyromancer (very fringe use, I know... probably does still belong on a list like this)

Drawmij's Instant Summons is a utility spell that you only need every so often, but can be prepped so early (and ritual cast) that it is a nice trick to have to reclaim a spellbook or to be tricksy in various ways

Find the Path is *VERY* niche, but nothing else really replicates it better

100% agree with you on Illusory script, it's (nearly) free utility and furthermore if you're worried about people spying on you or in a campaign setting with intrigue it's basically a must have.

I'm curious if you've ever actually seen Instant Summons used effectively in a real game. If I ran across the spell in my campaign I'd copy into my spellbook (though I'm the type to copy literally every spell I encounter that I don't already have) and I'd probably cast it on my most important stuff. But it's hard to imagine situations in which I'd actually need my staff or spellbook or whatever badly enough to spend 1000GP on it but I don't already have it with me (or in my portable hole) and I do have the sapphire.

[traskomancer]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Resistance. Under what situations is this cantrip actually worth taking?

[DwarfFighter]

Only good spell is Magic Missile - no roll to hit, no save, rarely resisted.

Unless you take circumstance into account and put some work into pick the right spell for the job.

[MaxWilson]

I haven't seen Hunger of Hadar working well. It doesn't scale; it caps out at 4d6 damage/round. And you have to pin them or they only take 2d6 damage. I guess they are 40' of movement from the edge and they are blinded, so it is a form of action denial.

One curious aspect of Hunger of Hadar is that unlike Darkness, it doesn't interact with darkvision, but it does blind creatures within its area (as well as creating difficult terrain and inflicting damage). If your whole party has darkvision (either naturally or via magic items or the Darkvision spell), you could use Hunger of Hadar to blind enemies and gain advantage against them with no save.

That is, think of Hunger of Hadar as Mass Blindness (no save) with an additional racial/spell prereq: all PCs must all have darkvision before you cast it.

[LudicSavant]

Melf's Acid Arrow is pretty poor, at least for Wizards (the only class that gets it outside of a subclass list).

To put into perspective how MAA fares, imagine we significantly buffed it so that it never missed, and did all its damage in one turn. Huge, giant buffs.

And yet, compared to a 2nd level magic missile, this super-buffed version of MAA only does 1 extra damage (15 vs 14), has a shorter range, can't be split, has a worse damage type, and doesn't have the slot versatility of being usable with an L1 slot. Doesn't have as good class-specific synergies, either.

[Ashrym]

I disagree with a few you list (utility magic that isn’t often useful but cannot easily be replicated in other ways has value) but... my own additions:

Infestation, Crown of Madness,

I would take crown of madness in a heartbeat over spells like knock or charm person.

Crown of madness applies the charmed condition, has good range for the spell level, requires no material components, denies an action, and then can deny additional actions or trigger opportunity attacks depending on whether the target chooses to move or not.

The upkeep is brutal but it's worthwhile enough to cast and then not maintain on subsequent turns unless it makes sense to maintain it, especially on a bard with poor damage options for the same action cost. It's not the best spell, but it's got it's uses.

Knock loudly opening a lock can be replicated by many characters with a hammer or accomplished better by using tools. It's niche in 5e.

Charm person is better for the duration, lack of upkeep cost, and targets in a higher level slot; but if I am damaging long-term relationships via spellcasting I may as well use friends at will or crown at range with a wider variety of targets. Speaking doesn't take actions.

I can befriend NPC's over time and request favors using skills and ability checks without long-term negative impacts caused by those spells. I find charm person more useful than knock, but still not that useful.

Crown of madness is a spell I can use. It plays better than it looks.

I agree on the utility spells having value. Spell preparation and ritual casting give them low opportunity cost for situational or niche abilities.

[lordshadowisle]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Resistance. Under what situations is this cantrip actually worth taking?

Resistance has its uses. You use it whenever you think there is a non-zero chance of needing to make a save and can afford the action. Rogue is disarming traps? Apply resistance. Walking through a magical forest? Apply resistance. Opening a suspicious door? Resistance. Opening an innocent-looking door? Resistance anyway.

Because it's a cantrip, you can apply it liberally. Of course, it tends to compete with Guidance, but larger parties can usually spare the cantrip slot.

[Snails]

Resistance has its uses. You use it whenever you think there is a non-zero chance of needing to make a save and can afford the action. Rogue is disarming traps? Apply resistance. Walking through a magical forest? Apply resistance. Opening a suspicious door? Resistance. Opening an innocent-looking door? Resistance anyway.

Because it's a cantrip, you can apply it liberally. Of course, it tends to compete with Guidance, but larger parties can usually spare the cantrip slot.

Agreed. If you are going with an old school Dungeon Crawl or similar, use Guidance to help the person kicking in the door for the Str check and toss Resistance on someone who is up front. Since most parties have at least two casters, it is not a burden to have both available.

Since it is employing these spells for a clear purpose that probably happens no more than a few dozen times per day, it will likely not run afoul of DMs who dislike spamming (e.g. "I cast Resistance/Guidance on someone every single minute I am awake")

[LudicSavant]

Snilloc's Snowball Swarm is pretty bad, too. Does damage like 1st level spell, in a smaller AoE.

[MaxWilson]

Agreed. If you are going with an old school Dungeon Crawl or similar, use Guidance to help the person kicking in the door for the Str check and toss Resistance on someone who is up front. Since most parties have at least two casters, it is not a burden to have both available.

It may be a burden to have both up and running though, since the opportunity cost is other long-duration concentration spells like Conjure Animals, Haste, Pass Without Trace, Conjure Celestial, Spirit Guardians, etc.

[heavyfuel]

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Resistance. Under what situations is this cantrip actually worth taking?

The biggest problem with Resistance is that it competes directly with Guidance.

Now, I do think Guidance is completely broken for a Cantrip.

Most situations you'd want to use Resistance are circumstances related to traps, as lordshadowisle said. But why give the Rogue an extra d4 on their save, when you can give them an extra d4 on their check so that they might not even to roll a save?

Plus, Guidance can be used in many many other situations, whereas Resistance cannot.

So yeah, Resistance is only weak when compared to the obnoxious brokeness that is Guidance.

[JNAProductions]

The biggest problem with Resistance is that it competes directly with Guidance.

Now, I do think Guidance is completely broken for a Cantrip.

Most situations you'd want to use Resistance are circumstances related to traps, as lordshadowisle said. But why give the Rogue an extra d4 on their save, when you can give them an extra d4 on their check so that they might not even to roll a save?

Plus, Guidance can be used in many many other situations, whereas Resistance cannot.

So yeah, Resistance is only weak when compared to the obnoxious brokeness that is Guidance.

You make the case that Resistance is a lot worse than Guidance.

That doesn't mean that Guidance is broken. It just means that at least one is unbalanced-and in my opinion, that one is Resistance.

[Witty Username]

I would take crown of madness in a heartbeat over spells like knock or charm person.

Crown of madness applies the charmed condition, has good range for the spell level, requires no material components, denies an action, and then can deny additional actions or trigger opportunity attacks depending on whether the target chooses to move or not.

The upkeep is brutal but it's worthwhile enough to cast and then not maintain on subsequent turns unless it makes sense to maintain it, especially on a bard with poor damage options for the same action cost. It's not the best spell, but it's got it's uses.

Knock loudly opening a lock can be replicated by many characters with a hammer or accomplished better by using tools. It's niche in 5e.

Charm person is better for the duration, lack of upkeep cost, and targets in a higher level slot; but if I am damaging long-term relationships via spellcasting I may as well use friends at will or crown at range with a wider variety of targets. Speaking doesn't take actions.

I can befriend NPC's over time and request favors using skills and ability checks without long-term negative impacts caused by those spells. I find charm person more useful than knock, but still not that useful.

Crown of madness is a spell I can use. It plays better than it looks.

I agree on the utility spells having value. Spell preparation and ritual casting give them low opportunity cost for situational or niche abilities.

I think Tasha's hideous laughter does most of the effects of crown of madness while being a level lower.
Charm person does not turn people hostile as a matter of course like friends does, putting it in DM territory and makes it more useful to use on a confused/charmed ally to prevent them from attacking you or something. assuming you don't have access to an effect like calm emotions or dispel magic.
That being said Crown of madness is probably not in worst spells territory, especially if it is on a weird list, like how confusion is so-so but knowledge cleric can make good use of it.

You make the case that Resistance is a lot worse than Guidance.

That doesn't mean that Guidance is broken. It just means that at least one is unbalanced-and in my opinion, that one is Resistance.
I mostly agree with this, I think Resistance has the problem that you need to predict when you are going to make saving throws, making it problematic to use. Also thinks like bless can target more people which can be better for combat and aoe hazards even if it requires a spell slot. Guidance existing isn't really the issue. Resisting needing predictive power is.

[heavyfuel]

You make the case that Resistance is a lot worse than Guidance.

That doesn't mean that Guidance is broken. It just means that at least one is unbalanced-and in my opinion, that one is Resistance.

Maybe Guidance isn't broken and I just hate what it does to the game.

My beef with Guidance (and Bardic Inspiration for that matter) is that it's a huge middle finger to Bounded Accuracy and the whole "no bonuses" and "streamlined gameplay" thing it has going on.

For one, during the first 4 levels Guidance is better than Proficiency, and for the next 4 it's about as good. So a Cleric can make anyone as good as a trained person. The fact that they can do this at will really rubs me the wrong way.

Additionally, I hate that this means that the Cleric player won't ever shut up about Guidance. Lots of memes about players not shutting up about having Darkvision, but too few about them not shutting up about Guidance. This constant interruption of other players actions so that you can cast Guidance is really annoying because it interrupting people are annoying, and I don't think I have to expand on this further.

Similarly, if you ever played Pathfinder, then 5e's Guidance is how I feel about PF's Detect Magic cantrip. The fact that it's at will means it can slow down gameplay to a halt unless the players actively shoot themselves in the foot for not using it every time all the time. Casting it every 6 seconds is absolutey the best thing you can do, but it also means I'm going to nerf it to 1st level spell so that you have to think really carefully about when you want to announce to the whole table that you have a spell.

I could also criticize Resistance for all the same reasons, but Resistance isn't something you want to be constantly using.

[Valmark]

Additionally, I hate that this means that the Cleric player won't ever shut up about Guidance. Lots of memes about players not shutting up about having Darkvision, but too few about them not shutting up about Guidance. This constant interruption of other players actions so that you can cast Guidance is really annoying because it interrupting people are annoying, and I don't think I have to expand on this further.

Similarly, if you ever played Pathfinder, then 5e's Guidance is how I feel about PF's Detect Magic cantrip. The fact that it's at will means it can slow down gameplay to a halt unless the players actively shoot themselves in the foot for not using it every time all the time. Casting it every 6 seconds is absolutey the best thing you can do, but it also means I'm going to nerf it to 1st level spell so that you have to think really carefully about when you want to announce to the whole table that you have a spell.

I could also criticize Resistance for all the same reasons, but Resistance isn't something you want to be constantly using.

Tbh if the player isn't shutting up about the spell the fault is either on the player or the DM that requires them to say it every time, not the spell. If you have an at will power that you are costantly using then of course it's casted unless noted otherwise.

If I spam False Life with the relevant Warlock Invocation I'm not going to roll 1d4+4 thp every minute (maybe even repeatedly to make sure I have 8 at the ready) but that doesn't mean they aren't there. It's just not relevant all the time.

The only time you'd need to announce you're casting Guidance is either if for some reason you weren't doing it already or if there are multiple relevant targets (i.e. if the rogue is scouting ahead and we are all safely in the back of course they got Guidance on, but if we are all stealthing only one will get the bonus and the caster will need to choose).

Same thing for your case about Pathfinder's Detect Magic- if it's at will one should just assume it's casted until it becomes relevant, especially since it looks like it only takes an action. Dragging out the game because you are repeating it aloud all the time is the player's fault (or the DM's, depending on the exact reason for repeating it).

[Naanomi]

Guidance has a lot of uses, but less when DMs make verbal spellcasting noticeable outside of whisper ranger and socially awkward... still gets a ton of use, but not so much in social scenarios, or even moderate attempts at sneaky dungeon crawling... and probably less than the ‘help’ action

[heavyfuel]

Tbh if the player isn't shutting up about the spell the fault is either on the player or the DM that requires them to say it every time, not the spell. If you have an at will power that you are costantly using then of course it's casted unless noted otherwise.

If I spam False Life with the relevant Warlock Invocation I'm not going to roll 1d4+4 thp every minute (maybe even repeatedly to make sure I have 8 at the ready) but that doesn't mean they aren't there. It's just not relevant all the time.

The only time you'd need to announce you're casting Guidance is either if for some reason you weren't doing it already or if there are multiple relevant targets (i.e. if the rogue is scouting ahead and we are all safely in the back of course they got Guidance on, but if we are all stealthing only one will get the bonus and the caster will need to choose).

Same thing for your case about Pathfinder's Detect Magic- if it's at will one should just assume it's casted until it becomes relevant, especially since it looks like it only takes an action. Dragging out the game because you are repeating it aloud all the time is the player's fault (or the DM's, depending on the exact reason for repeating it).

I'm okay with False Life being "always on" because it lasts the whole hour. I'm not okay with Guidance being always on because it lasts only a minute. The idea that during the average day you stop roughly 960 times to mumble some words for six whole seconds and then touch your closest friend is completely ludricous.

Plus, there are definitely times when you don't want to cast Guidance. These might be rare, but they certainly exist. If Eric says "I'm always casting Guidance" and then a month later Josh rolls Persuasion with the extra d4, and I then proceed to tell everyone to roll Initiative because Eric decided to cast a spell during negotiations, Eric might interject with a "Well, I'm obviously not going to cast it in a situation where it might harm my team!".

Well, Eric, I'm not a mind reader, and I don't get to decide for you which situations might or might not harm your team. And the fact that I don't want to have this discussion is exactly why Guidance is now a 1st level spell (with some buffs)

[Amnestic]

As a V/S spell, a 1 minute duration if you're casting it constantly means you're constantly talking and constantly gesturing. This may pose problems in urban settings (why are they casting a spell repeatedly? That's concerning, the guards might stop you) or wilderness/dungeons (who can overhear the spellcast and likely ruin any attempt to be stealthy).

The forced march for exhaustion rules also assume you're just marching, not also spellcasting. A DM could quite reasonably start imposing exhaustion-granting con saves if they're doing it *constantly*.

[Valmark]

I'm okay with False Life being "always on" because it lasts the whole hour. I'm not okay with Guidance being always on because it lasts only a minute. The idea that during the average day you stop roughly 960 times to mumble some words for six whole seconds and then touch your closest friend is completely ludricous.

Plus, there are definitely times when you don't want to cast Guidance. These might be rare, but they certainly exist. If Eric says "I'm always casting Guidance" and then a month later Josh rolls Persuasion with the extra d4, and I then proceed to tell everyone to roll Initiative because Eric decided to cast a spell during negotiations, Eric might interject with a "Well, I'm obviously not going to cast it in a situation where it might harm my team!".

Well, Eric, I'm not a mind reader, and I don't get to decide for you which situations might or might not harm your team. And the fact that I don't want to have this discussion is exactly why Guidance is now a 1st level spell (with some buffs)

It's ludicrous to empower your allies with magic if you think they might need it?

And yes, there are times when you don't want to cast it. One would expect the party to take that into account and say something. If they don't... There will be obvious consequences (assuming the reason one wouldn't want to cast it it's not just because it's useless).

[heavyfuel]

It's ludicrous to empower your allies with magic if you think they might need it?

Uh, no. And that's not what I said, so I don't know why you're making that argument :smallconfused:

[Valmark]

I'm okay with False Life being "always on" because it lasts the whole hour. I'm not okay with Guidance being always on because it lasts only a minute. The idea that during the average day you stop roughly 960 times to mumble some words for six whole seconds and then touch your closest friend is completely ludricous.



Uh, no. And that's not what I said, so I don't know why you're making that argument :smallconfused:

I think I misunderstood something then, because that's what it looks like.

[heavyfuel]

I think I misunderstood something then, because that's what it looks like.

My point is the the frequency and the length of each casting. Casting a spell every now and then to help your allies is fine. Of course it is. Casting a spell every waking minute of every day is not.

Try doing literally anything other than vital functions for six seconds every minute and you'll see what I mean.

Every minute, stop whatever it is you're doing, then wave your arms around while counting 6 seconds out loud while you walk over to an object you're pretending to be your friend and then touch this object before going back to the activity you were doing.

How many times can you do it before you either forget it or say "screw this"?

[Magicspook]

Don't forget about jump. Jump does literally nothing.

[Valmark]

My point is the the frequency and the length of each casting. Casting a spell every now and then to help your allies is fine. Of course it is. Casting a spell every waking minute of every day is not.

Try doing literally anything other than vital functions for six seconds every minute and you'll see what I mean.

Every minute, stop whatever it is you're doing, then wave your arms around while mumbling pretend magical words for 6 seconds while you walk over to an object you're pretending to be your friend and then touch this object before going back to the activity you were doing.

How many times can you do it before you either forget it or say "screw this"?

Alright, I understand your point although I still disagree. There is a lot of difference between doing that every minute because it makes you or an ally smarter, more charismatic, more agile etc. and doing that because yes. If I had Guidance IRL you'd bet it would be up all the time even if it makes me look like a madman.

Note: by "All the time" I mean all the time that it's reasonable to do so/I need it. I'm not going to wake up and cast Guidance before I even stretched, for example- if that's up to debate in a group then it should be cleared up ahead of time to avoid any discussion (which leads me back to what I was saying- up to the player and/or the DM to determine when Guidance is up without having to say it repeatedly).

I'm the one that Ritual Casts Detect Magic every ten minutes while in dungeons without a time-sensitive mission, mind you (and I don't interrupt anything, I say it ahead of time once and only speak up if I want to stop doing it). That might also be why I see zero issue with Guidance on this specific matter.

[Naanomi]

Don't forget about jump. Jump does literally nothing.
Jump lets you cross short chasms and pits with less resources/before you learn Fly. Not the most stellar spell, but occasionally handy at low-level play (especially if you get it for 'free' by being Gith or something)

[Snails]

It may be a burden to have both up and running though, since the opportunity cost is other long-duration concentration spells like Conjure Animals, Haste, Pass Without Trace, Conjure Celestial, Spirit Guardians, etc.

Good point. Yes, using Concentration has an opportunity cost, so using Guidance/Resistance becomes less than obvious once you have a broad array of choices at your disposal. That is the fate of most cantrips -- they become only situationally useful, unless the cantrip is boosted by a class feature or similar. Guidance/Resistance is not worst than most cantrips, in that regard.

[heavyfuel]

Note: by "All the time" I mean all the time that it's reasonable to do so/I need it.

Which is part of the problem. You and your DM are bound to have different ideas of what "reasonable" and "when you need it" to mean. So either you enforce your DM to play your character for you, or you have to keep interrupting to say "I cast guidance!" every time

[Valmark]

Which is part of the problem. You and your DM are bound to have different ideas of what "reasonable" and "when you need it" to mean. So either you enforce your DM to play your character for you, or you have to keep interrupting to say "I cast guidance!" every time

Or I can just say when I'm keeping it up and when I stop. At least for my groups it works (well, those where it's relevant).

[mistajames]

Some of those are debatable. Arms of Hadar is actually quite good at level 1, when AoE damage spells are hard to come by. it just scales terribly after that. I've actually taken Illusory Script before on my illusionist. Very useful when the spell lasts for days and you can change the script at-will. Same with Continual Flame - I would never choose it on level up, but I did buy a scroll of it when I saw it up for sale, so that I could cast it to light my wizard's Demiplane. Drawmij's Instant Summons is similar - by the time you get to these levels, 1,000 gp isn't prohibitive to protect an important item like your spellbook or your Staff of the Magi. It has its uses. It's just not an "every day" thing.

Stone Skin is actually better than it looks on a gish. Most monsters, even high-level monsters, don't have magical attacks, and it isn't easy to break concentration if a PC can manage a +9 Con save and/or have War Caster to back it up.

Wall of Sand would be OK if not for 5e's terrible rules around firing blindly at a target that can't see you. It blocks line of sight and is tough to penetrate (takes 30ft of movement to walk through it). As-is, yeah, it's pretty bad.

Danse Macabre is actually extremely good for PC and NPC necromancers, because it gives a damage and attack boost equal to your SpellMod, and also adds your L6 bonuses. Likely, a +9 to damage and a +5 to-hit with bows at level 9, over-and-above what they usually get. 5 skeleton bow attacks would be +9 to-hit, 5*(1d6+11) damage per shot, averaging 72.5 damage/round, before misses.

Dispel Evil and Good is very strong when you consider how common celestials/elementals/fey/fiends/undead are at these levels. Seriously, these creatures types are often the bulk of what you're fighting in late T2-T4, and this spell is basically a save-or-die. And many of these creatures don't have a great Cha save. Look at, say, a CR12 Boneclaw vs a typical L9 Cleric sporting a +9 to-hit (17DC). Without advantage or magic items, that's a 70% chance to-hit, and a 85% chance to banish (about a 60% total chance to succeed). And at these levels, there are lots of ways to debuff saves. Not bad for a re-usable ability that also gives disadvantage to attacks against you.

Immolation/Circle of Death are NPC spells. Immolation has a dramatic "must-do-something-or-PC-dies-forever" clock. If your squishy wizard gets hit with this and they drop, the party had better move quickly. Circle of Death has a huge AoE for dramatic effect. This is similar to spells like PW: Kill, which are lackluster when used by PCs, but very scary when used against them.

[ATHATH]

Don't forget about jump. Jump does literally nothing.
Jump is great for (non-flying) grapplers that choose to rely on fall damage as their main source of DPS.

[Bardon]

It's great to see the robust debate and discussion on the varied merits (or lack thereof) of these spells.

However I think we are all agreed that Weird just plain sucks. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

[KorvinStarmast]

Cantrip True Strike
L1 Witch Bolt, Arms of Hadar, Illusory Script, Detect Poison and Disease, Purify Food and Drink
L2 Continual Flame, Barkskin, Find Traps
L3 Wall of Water, Flame Arrows, Wall of Sand, Hunger of Hadar
L4 Stone Skin, Grasping Vine, Elemental Bane, Phantasmal Killer
L5 Control Winds, Enervation, Immolation, Dispel Evil & Good, Danse Macabre
L6 Circle of Death, Drawmij's Instant Summons, Find the Path
L7 Mordenkainen's Sword
L8 Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting
L9 Weird As I was working up a hag coven and noticed grasping vine as a choice for a 4th level spell, I was massively underwhelmed. It's a spell that I will/would never pick. (So I subbed in a different one). Barkskin being concentration is a deal breaker. In a very small party Find Traps is useful, but why is it a second level spell? Won't comment otherwise as others have done a nice job of responding.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Resistance. Under what situations is this cantrip actually worth taking?
I used it a lot in our first campaign as a life cleric. Our rogue would be tackling a door or a trap or a chest: I'd cast resistance on him before he started. It cut down on some of the poison damage. I also would cast it on our dwarf paladin before we went through a door since he liked to go first. Various things he ran into were reduced ... cheaper than warding bond, spell slot wise. But once I bought those two rings, I used warding bond on him quite a bit.

[borg286]

How on earth has nobody mentioned Skywrite
http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/spell:skywrite
Concentration for 1 day. I think Trump would like it however.

[Democratus]

How on earth has nobody mentioned Skywrite
http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/spell:skywrite
Concentration for 1 day. I think Trump would like it however.

SURRENDER DOROTHY :smallcool:

[KorvinStarmast]

How on earth has nobody mentioned Skywrite
http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/spell:skywrite
Concentration for 1 day. I cast it as a ritual a number of times; a few of those time were to advertise for our bard, so that he'd make us some money.
Worked.
Another time I used it to write a false rumor about a local corrupt castellan, in the sky above the town square during market day, and it of got the ball rolling for our getting him removed. (Granted, an assassin came after me first, but we knew there'd be push back ...)

[Luccan]

I cast it as a ritual a number of times; a few of those time were to advertise for our bard, so that he'd make us some money.
Worked.
Another time I used it to write a false rumor about a local corrupt castellan, in the sky above the town square during market day, and it of got the ball rolling for our getting him removed. (Granted, an assassin came after me first, but we knew there'd be push back ...)

I think the real problem with something like Skywrite is that it's on a Spells Known caster. Sure, Bards get ritual casting (making them further ridiculously diverse), but it's one of those things where you're left wondering why anyone who has to watch their spells known would pick it up. It's also questionable as a level-up spell for Wizard.

[meandean]

I think the real problem with something like Skywrite is that it's on a Spells Known caster.Druids do get it.

[Luccan]

Druids do get it.

Sure, so do Artificers. And a Wizard that picks it up outside level-up is more likely to scribe it into their book than not. But in all three of those cases, you're looking at PCs that can afford to have one less general use spell, because they can trade it out tomorrow. Bard doesn't really have that, which makes it seem like Skywrite wasn't really written for them. Giving niche spells to Spell Known casters just creates trap options.

[Yakk]

Spells Known casters can buy/find scrolls.

But yes.

[KorvinStarmast]

I think the real problem with something like Skywrite is that it's on a Spells Known caster. Sure, Bards get ritual casting (making them further ridiculously diverse), but it's one of those things where you're left wondering why anyone who has to watch their spells known would pick it up. It's also questionable as a level-up spell for Wizard. Heh, we found a scroll of it and I copied into my Book of Magic Secrets. I joined Alarm and TFD as the first 'found' ritual spell.
(Tome Pact Celestial Warlock. :smallwink: )

[Naanomi]

Skywrite is great for advertisement, and insulting people

[MaxWilson]

It's great to see the robust debate and discussion on the varied merits (or lack thereof) of these spells.

However I think we are all agreed that Weird just plain sucks. :smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

Imprisonment is worse, and Astral Projection and Time Stop are situationally worse.


How on earth has nobody mentioned Skywrite
http://dnd5e.wikidot.com/spell:skywrite
Concentration for 1 day.

That link is wrong. It's 1 hour (concentration), not one day. See Xanathar's or https://www.dndbeyond.com/spells/skywrite

[MrCharlie]

Imprisonment is worse, and Astral Projection and Time Stop are situationally worse.

Imprisonment is miles better. It's at the least a save or lose, and gets around any number of fantasy situations where killing someone is bad but you need them effectively dead. It's reasonably robust to ending too.

Time step is very useful in certain situations, never completely useless, and fits the general definition of a situational spell.

Astral Projection is a DM fiat or plot spell, and isn't really comparable-I suppose it's useful if the DM is making you use it or if you get it through another source, but I also view it in a similar way to weird-the writers didn't know what to do with it and made it to make it. That said, I can at least create situations where it's unique way of working is useful. I just don't imagine those arising as anything except fiat.

In contrast Weird is worse than a 3rd level spell more than half of the time, and the same as it the rest of the time. It's awful even in situations where you want to use it. You're better served with other options.

[MaxWilson]

Imprisonment is miles better. It's at the least a save or lose, and gets around any number of fantasy situations where killing someone is bad but you need them effectively dead. It's reasonably robust to ending too.

It's got a 1 minute casting time and requires a "a vellum depiction or a carved statuette in the likeness of the target, and a special component that varies according to the version of the spell you choose, worth at least 500 gp per Hit Die of the target" as a material component. You can only attempt it once: "The target must succeed on a Wisdom saving throw or be bound by the spell; if it succeeds, it is immune to this spell if you cast it again." The target isn't even incapacitated unless you pick the Slumber option (some monsters can't be put to sleep, and big bad evil guys worth banishing are probably more likely than most to be sleepless), which means the target can potentially just Dispel their own Imprisonment.

In short, it's basically impossible to use in combat, it's expensive both in material components and in spell slots, it targets a save which tends to be very strong, and it's just generally not worth the bother.

It's a bad spell. If you want to make someone effectively dead you're better off just Flesh to Stoning them, which does incapacitate them. Then True Polymorph that statue into a pebble, Sequester that pebble, chuck that invisible, undetectable pebble in a Demiplane, and forget about it.


In contrast Weird is worse than a 3rd level spell more than half of the time, and the same as it the rest of the time. It's awful even in situations where you want to use it. You're better served with other options.

Weird is relatively bad, but if you just want to kill to disable and kill a bunch of mid-CR monsters (e.g. two Abominable Yetis and half a dozen Yeti minions) it isn't horrible, if you have a good DC. Think of it as sort of a slow-motion Fireball with an improved AoE and damage type. It's bad, but it's not worse than Imprisonment.

[Ashrym]

Skywrite is niche mass communication.


I think Tasha's hideous laughter does most of the effects of crown of madness while being a level lower.
Charm person does not turn people hostile as a matter of course like friends does, putting it in DM territory and makes it more useful to use on a confused/charmed ally to prevent them from attacking you or something. assuming you don't have access to an effect like calm emotions or dispel magic.
That being said Crown of madness is probably not in worst spells territory, especially if it is on a weird list, like how confusion is so-so but knowledge cleric can make good use of it.

Charm person leaves the target aware the caster charmed him/her/they. It leads towards negative reactions when an NPC is targeted by spells. I can successfullymake friends and ask favors without magical coercion so it's too situational for me on a PC. Not bad enough to be on the worst spell list either.

Crown of madness's biggest issue isn't that it's that bad a spell, but Tasha's hideous laughter (as you pointed out) or hold person are usually better choices outside of some situational benefits.

[JoeJ]

Sure, so do Artificers. And a Wizard that picks it up outside level-up is more likely to scribe it into their book than not. But in all three of those cases, you're looking at PCs that can afford to have one less general use spell, because they can trade it out tomorrow. Bard doesn't really have that, which makes it seem like Skywrite wasn't really written for them. Giving niche spells to Spell Known casters just creates trap options.

For bards, I see it more of a thematic spell that a non-adventuring NPC might have than a choice for a PC.