PDA

View Full Version : Lord of All Creation (Spheres in Review)



SangoProduction
2021-01-13, 04:01 AM
I feel like procrastinating. I still have 2 weeks for my homework. Let's instead spend several hours doing this instead so I can ignore my slow descent into madness.
Note: I am...not entirely sure the best uses of this sphere, and though I've had a couple of character ideas which used it, none of them got to see play. So, I 100% will be missing the infinite flexibility of just summoning ****. And other matter.

Post-Review Analysis: Wow. I hate that I haven't ever gotten to play this before. God damn.
Full or Partial Caster: Full Caster. There is very little effect placed "up front," and with very smooth, very useful scaling with CL, the full caster will get the most out of the sphere.

Flex Talents: The base sphere is what gets the the ability to just create items (out of vegetable matter). The Material talents all can provide different materials, if so needed. Potent Alteration enables the repair of magical items. The Alter talents, just in general, are pretty good to just pick up whenever you need them.


Ranking system:
(S) Superb: You always want this. It's awesome.
(G) Good: You would certainly not complain about having this, especially in the right builds / situations.
(B) Bad: While perhaps better than nothing, you are giving up something for it, so probably shouldn't without a good reason.
(N) No.
<Angle brackets> around a rating indicates situational usefulness, and how good it is in that favorable situation.

- Special Ratings:
(C) Cheese: A talent so broken that it will be instantly banned if you use it as you could.
(I) Impossible: Can't be rated because it is just not defined enough to give a meaningful rating - it depends too much on DM ruling, or personal use. I'll just place it where I guess the average result would put it.
(F) Flavor: This indicates that the main draw to the talent is going to be its inherent fluff or flavor, rather than raw power or utility.


Base Sphere
Alter As a standard action, you can touch an inanimate, non-magical, unattended object to Alter it. Base sphere Alter choices include Destroy and Repair. (These are just little tacked on bonus cantrips, rather than anything that's supposed to be impactful. So I give them lee way.)
Destroy (B): If you are CL 1, then this is technically superior to most blast types when it comes to exclusively hurting inanimate, non-magic, unattended objects. CL 3? Yeah, arguable. CL 5 is...maybe if you're trying to break adamantine.
Repair (G): You know? Next to nothing in spheres actually repairs objects. Sure, it doesn't work with animate objects, but still. Not even Alchemy sphere's Salve does this. And this can repair the broken condition. Gun Slingers anyone? Probably not... but still! It is a unique (if incredibly weak) effect! As a cantrip!
Alter Talents: Gain new cantrips. Yay.

Create (I): The real base sphere ability. It's incredibly versatile, and I've got a (pre-USOP) Encase build, (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?556685-(SoP)-Stay-a-While-and-Listen-build&p=23006590#post23006590) which shows that even the printed uses are really bloody good, if built around. So it's probably anywhere from G to C+ tier. But I never got to actually try it out.

Items Created: No item may be created with a higher Craft (or knowledge nature) DC than 15. 1 small-item-equivalent per level. So in raw size category, by chart, this scales logarithmically. But it's actually linear, because it can be broken down. And text > table, so you're not restricted to strict size categories. Plus how they categorize the size of items is inconsistent between different uses. (Almost as though the base Pathfinder rules for the size of items is inconsistent in and of themselves as well. Imagine my shock.) This leads to plenty of ambiguity you can use. Also, it at least starts at small without a talent, at level 1, where as telekinesis starts at diminutive.

Actions: Standard action to create an object, and a standard action to dismiss. That might mean that if you summon multiple things with 1 cast, it can take a while to dismiss them all.
Duration: Concentration, for up to 1 min / lvl. Or, on creation, spend a spell point to have it last 1 min / lvl. Better than base illusion... Probably serves just fine in combat. Has some problems for world interaction.

Range: Appears in your hand / adjacent to you, and may extend no further than close range. This would be pointless to mention, if you were restricted to the cubes that the size categories you can summon generally entail.

Dropping objects: If you get extra range on your summons, you have access to a relatively poor source of damage. But it is at least effectively a cantrip. It is also potentially AoE and touch attack. So it's cool, and very rare utility from a class of spell effect that generally doesn't allow that. It does require rather substantial height to do any real damage though. Uses Intelligence to hit, rather than Casting Ability Modifier or Dex, which is definitely...unique. Dropping multiple objects on a target is limited to no more than 4 per target.

Dropping Weapons: Just objects that target AC rather than touch, but do damage as per a weapon of the summoned size. Generally not worth it unless you're targeting a mage. But you can do the math on your own. Just have an excel sheet open, and find the expected AC break point where dropping a weapon is superior to dropping stuff.
Question for the DM: Does Impale sphere still get to apply? What if the weapon is 3x the size of the target? Or is a wall? Do they take encumbrance penalties?

Walls: Yeah. These are pretty incredible, for all the reasons you already know walls are incredible. But can also be placed horizontally as a covering and drop them for AoE damage. 1 small object summons a 10ft-10ft wall that's 1 inch thick. And you can add...spikes for a caltrop effect with a reflex save. I guess. Why it costs double thickness rather than just 1 inch of thickness is beyond me. DM-willing, the walls are much more flexible than first given, allowing for 20-5 walls, or 5-5 walls that are 4 inches thick, as they are equivalent volume.

Cages / Nets / Catches: Catch = wall / covering larger than target. Those under the wall are entangled, but can simply move out from under it.
Nets function as the exotic weapon. Does that include non-proficiency? Or is it just that it functions like the weapon, but without being a weapon, as it's under this section rather than dropping weapons? Who knows.
Cages: a 1-inch thick cage occupies the same space as the creature, while being treated as 1 size larger. They may always attempt attacks and strength checks against the cage, unimpeded. And by the fact that they aren't affected by spikes / acid unless they make such checks, it's quite well implied that their movement within the square is not being infringed, basically at all, even for the purposes of somatic components.

Material Talents: Grant new materials that can be altered or created... I'll assume this is not trying to retroactively say that Alter only affects materials you can create.

Well. That was an hour just on the base sphere alone. This might have been a mistake.

Divided Creation (S): So long as your DM isn't allowing you to simply connect up smaller items with breakable connectors as a single item, then this aids in flexibility tremendously, and even allows for many, many, many very small objects. And even for damage, this is a substantial increase, if you're disregarding touch AC vs normal AC.

Lengthened Creation (S): Strange wording indicates that it adds a new duration option rather than replaces the old duration option. But who cares. You get hour / level creation duration. And you even get the side effect of the wording enabling hour/lvl duration on alter talents.
Restrictive Casing (S): Spell point to Save or Lose, basically. The Strength check will be next to impossible. Removes the added size for a cage, removes their ability to attack the cage, and forces them to take the Iron Maiden damage. (No, Iron Maidens would be hypothetically more deadly. But still. Evokes the same imagery.) No word on it restricting somatic components or eventually suffocating them. Also becomes subject to spell resistance.

Distant Creation (<G-S>): Best use case is when you want to drop stuff. In which case you want no less than 2 of these. Although by that point you could have taken Destruction sphere. But still, even 1 talent at least lets you summon in a close range from you, which is just generally good.
Larger Creation (G-S): Yeah. It may cost an extra spell point, but you get twice as much "stuff" from your casts. Which would be the equivalent of 2 rounds of casting, except that you only...OK, sum it up! It's a good deal, if you need it, and using a talent on it is a good trade.
Mass Liquid Generation (<I>): This is a metric butt ton of water (actually it's almost 8,000 lbs per small item). I have no idea what you would do with that water. But I am assuming that if you have a use for it, then this is bloody incredible. Dunno why this isn't a material talent.

Practiced Creation (G): Increase casting time by 1 step. Reduce cost by 1. That's pretty great. Must be concentrated on, which is not great.

Potent Alteration (<B-G>) Although it says Potent, it doesn't mean potent, and I'd generally avoid it. If you've got magic items that are consistently being sundered though, then this is kinda neat (but your DM's kind of a ****). If your warforged player is demanding you be a healer with this, wring him out for all he's worth. This is so inefficient.
Created Momentum (B-G): You are investing a talent into a very moderate amount of damage. But you also get the additional 200 ft range by flinging it away with range increments....though you could have just taken Distant Creation. Unless you're really talent-budgeted and still want to use it for damage, for some reason. In which case, this can be a stop-gap before you have 2 talents in Distant Creation.
Exquisite Detail (I): For most uses, the craft DC stuff doesn't make much of any difference. If you have a very particular set of insanity, then like maybe a gun, or a functional aircraft, or what have you, then this suddenly has a bunch more use.

Replication (B): OK, I need something in the B category. But there are some edge cases where this is substantially better, like when you can craft ammo, so you summon repeating magazines already loaded into your gun. One free reload each turn (by a generous reading). A good gun build would have already solved the reload problem, making this rather pointless compared to Divided Creation + Larger Creation, which are both already very desirable for more reasons than just this. But it is an edge case, and there are probably a few more like it.

Altering Burst (N-B): Not entirely useless. Has some edge cases. But generally useless.

Precise Destruction (N): Eh? I mean...I guess you save on skill points, and use a more preferable casting modifier. But... you could have just... destroyed the lock? ... And have repaired it when you were done? This doesn't allow the same effect for traps. But...roll a bolder down the hall way. There's no support in the class for classic trap finding, so you're not even fully taking over the role of a rogue. I DON'T SEE THE POINT! HELP ME!I think most of those talents are just riding on the base versatility of the sphere, but good for them.

Minimize / Maximize (S) As written, it's neat. It's a cantrip that adds/subtracts 1 size category from items. But requires Potent Alteration to be used in combat. And in that case, is it worth while to grant someone heavy encumbrance for a spell point vs a will save? I...am not sure. Never came up for me. Is it treated as non-proficient check penalty? If so, a -6 to attack and initiative is bloody insanely debilitating. Outright removing full plate armor for 2 spell points instantly turns a tank into a monk without AC bonus. And you could definitely make the argument for the sickened condition if you shrink some guy's pants. But that's not part of the rules as written. This does require Potent Alteration to have such usefulness. Is that requirement enough to make it bad? Perhaps not.
I mean. I guess even baseline, shrinking a door is effectively a cantrip Knock spell. Shrinking a tent can be argued to be a reflex vs entangle. Enlarging a door effectively makes it stuck. And it all has duration without a spell point. Know what? I've talked myself into it, it's... a ****ing paragraph. Holy cow. How...I love this sphere. My god.

Forge (<G>): What great use does this have? Creating doors in walls. Sealing hallways in a way that can't be dispelled (niche, but potent). Perhaps also in building castles. So...not very generalized uses. But I think it's relatively uniquely useful when it's useful.
Transparency (G): This is unambiguously good, even if you're not using it to prank the paladin / barmaids. Peeking through a door has never been easier. Preventing cards/daggers from being held in sleeves, without banning them. This is the one alter talent that actually gives a maximum size of object, and you can still alter a part of it!

Change Material (C): Spell Point. Round / level. (Unless you have Lengthened Creation +1 more spell point.) Changes the composition of an object made of material you can create. Pretty meh, right? Well...
You can think of this as "Spell Point: Destroy a building." Even if it's just made of wood, and not holding much up, if you turn that wood into hemp or barley, it's not holding anything up. How useful is that, in reality though? Is a building 1 object? Is a castle wall 1 object? Is the bloody planet an object? Oh my god.

Rigidity (B): Finally. A talent I can safely say is not very good. Since this costs a spell point, even if you wanted to make it even harder to break out of a Cage, you could have simply cast another Cage around them, and sustained it.

Crack (N-): Tiny area of difficult terrain. For a spell point. Who cares. You can literally create a wall, and deny much, much more area without spending this extra talent.Well. That took way too bloody long. I was getting far too giddy imagining the use cases of these talents. But that's a really good sign.

Expanded Materials (G-S):Immediately gain access to any non-harmful material with hardness 5 or less. Which also allows for doubled falling damage. But that's a side benefit, really. Then you get access to Steel at level 5, which is really where things get spicy. Level 10 is a bit late for some fluff piece creations. Gold and silver are rarely incredibly useful materials. But fighter planes... Good luck with that.

Object Of Force (<G>): Pre-USOP, this was freaking unbreakable. Post-USOP, this is worthless for stopping physical force, compared to stone or steal. Now it's only good for its unique properties of blocking incorporeal travel, anchoring anywhere, even in the air, and being totally invisible for free if you have Transparency. All incredibly niche. But they are there if you want it.

Alchemical Creation (<I>): Meh? Sure, you improve the DC of some mundane alchemical items. Who really cares? The most notable possible use is for summoning poisons. I'm not going through that list in hopes of finding a cool one that's simply hindered by its DC. You could though And beside, poison immunity exists.

Plasma Production (N-B): Has slightly more utility (especially if you have a battery) than Acidic Creation. If your DM allows you to create something like a cattle prod, which deals your direct damage, but by poking them and expending a charge of the battery instead...then...cool. It is comparable to Destruction sphere in damage for a spell point. But you can get some lightly decreasing damage each round / attack (depending on how you work it out with your DM). And thus, you technically achieve more damage per spell point than destruction sphere, without any of the disabling effects destruction sphere has.
Gaseous Generation (N-B): Very little real effect until really high level. Gets better if you're regularly running into suffocation dangers.

Acidic Creation (N): Just take a talent in Destruction sphere. Unless you really, desperately, want to turn a save or lose Cage into a save or die. And even then, you can just apply spikes. 1 damage / 6 seconds for 1 hour / CL is more than enough for basically anything. Maybe if they can break it on a roll of 20, then it wouldn't be enough. But still. Not needed.

Rynjin
2021-01-13, 05:11 AM
I know a guy who's made 3 separate characters with Creation as their primary focus. It always seemed real good. It helps that Creation "comes online" as early as level 1. Some Spheres feel incomplete until later (like Telekinesis, which is weaker in lifting power than Mage Hand early on), but Creation lets you live the fantasy immediately.



Precise Destruction (N): Eh? I mean...I guess you save on skill points, and use a more preferable casting modifier. But... you could have just... destroyed the lock? ... And have repaired it when you were done? This doesn't allow the same effect for traps. But...roll a bolder down the hall way. There's no support in the class for classic trap finding, so you're not even fully taking over the role of a rogue. I DON'T SEE THE POINT! HELP ME!

I think it's for when you want to disable devices without breaking them so you can reuse them? Seems niche. The disarming magical traps bit is okay though; remember Trapfinding is NOT necessary to FIND magical traps, despite the name, only disable them. Overall grabbing Divination (See Hazard, Trapfinding) to get Trapfinding for 1 hour/level seems way better though. Maybe a pick for a Sphere purist of some sort? Some full casters get very few talents (like the Thaumaturge) so dropping 3 full talents on it when one would do it (though less good) may be worthwhile.

I'd rate it as "Bad", but not a "Never" pick.


Object Of Force (<G>): Pre-USOP, this was freaking unbreakable. Post-USOP, this is worthless for stopping physical force, compared to stone or steal. Now it's only good for its unique properties of blocking incorporeal travel, anchoring anywhere, even in the air, and being totally invisible for free if you have Transparency. All incredibly niche. But they are there if you want it.

It's especially odd when Hard Light exists, which should have most of the properties of Force.


Alchemical Creation (N-B): Meh? Sure, you improve the DC of some mundane alchemical items. Who really cares? The most notable possible use is for summoning poisons. I'm not going through that list in hopes of finding a cool one that's simply hindered by its DC. And beside, poison immunity exists.

Immunity exists, but it's not all THAT common (about as much so as Fire resistance/immunity and that's often considered a solid option if you have ways to work around the times it's not); there are a few poisons with immediate detrimental effects that could possibly be worthwhile. The normally "level locked" options like Drow Sleep Poison and Spider Vine Poison (causes paralysis) turn into solid save or dies, and the poisons that nauseate are good too. Those are the ones available in the rough sub-10 range, so not too bad. If you could convince your GM that "Green Prismatic Poison (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/afflictions/poison/green-prismatic-poison)" is craftable, you have a true save or die available form level 1, though that's more for a laugh than any serious recommendation.

SangoProduction
2021-01-13, 04:40 PM
Fair point on the alchemical stuff.
As for the precise destruction, you could break the lock, tear it off the door handle, and then repair it in your hand. Now you've got the lock you wanted, without taking the feat. For traps, in most cases you already have the tools in the base sphere to deal with them. Either a bolder, to harmlessly trigger them, or a wall to block the effects. Both as cantrips with concentration.

Rynjin
2021-01-13, 05:57 PM
"Harmlessly triggering" magical traps is kind of a crapshoot. Many are traps that summon powerful creatures.

SangoProduction
2021-01-13, 06:50 PM
"Harmlessly triggering" magical traps is kind of a crapshoot. Many are traps that summon powerful creatures.

I've never seen one that does. But I imagine you can hook up summon monster to a magic trap. Admittedly, I don't often play dungeon crawls. So your mileage may vary.

I wonder why so many people use summoned monkeys and what not to trigger traps if it's not incredibly likely to be harmless when you're not going in from.

Rynjin
2021-01-13, 07:16 PM
I've never seen one that does. But I imagine you can hook up summon monster to a magic trap. Admittedly, I don't often play dungeon crawls. So your mileage may vary.

I wonder why so many people use summoned monkeys and what not to trigger traps if it's not incredibly likely to be harmless when you're not going in from.

Because it's great for mechanical traps. Mechanical traps typically aren't going to be summons or AoEs, so at low levels especially you can get away with just using a wand of Mount for everything.

Here's a quick example of summoned monster traps, from published material I've run. In Carrion Crown, there's a dungeon with two of these; a high level Alchemist's mansion. The player characters are roughly level 5 when they enter.

The front door summons a Huge Air Elemental (CR 7) whose listed tactics are to grab people in its tornado and then drop them 200 feet to the ghoul infested swamp waters below.

Not long after, a narrow rope bridge has been rigged (by the bad guys this time) to summon an Erinyes Devil (CR 8) once someone reaches the halfway point. The drop is only 100 feet this time, but the whole party is invited to the fun.

Tyrant's Grasp has a trap in book 1 which summons a Yeth Hound (CR 3, the party is level 2).

I believe there are a few examples in Skull and Shackles as well but it's been longer since I've run that.

Notably, trap DCs also scale ludicrously fast; the Summon Monster VI (Air Elemental) trap is a DC 31 to both notice AND disable. So half the time you're going to have to deal with it anyway.