Building a fire mage (sorcerer) would like some help.

[shadowseve]

So, like the title says. I'm building a fire mage (rp reasons) and I need some help optimizing it. Not, too hard core as the dm is new, but I would like some good feats to use both early on. I'm level 3. We use pathfinder feat progression but everything else is 3.5. All books allowed. Here's what I have so far as feats and spells.

Feats-Improved Familiar (so I can have a psuedo dragon, dm approved for rp reasons even though it's way early), improved initiative, Draconic Heritage (taken for rp reasons. Her goal is to become a full fledged dragon.)

Spells
0 level- detect magic, message, light, mend, prestidigitation.

1st level- grease, mage armor, and burning hands.

would love some help with feats, thinking about taking incantrix. (would like a good school of magic to give up.)

Thanks in advance for any help.

[Doctor Despair]

Reserve Feat (Fiery Burst)

Arcane Thesis: Scorching Ray (or Orb of Fire)

Searing Spell

Add on any number of metamagic feats (empower, maximize, twin, etc) to your preference

Incantatrix is a great choice (as it gives you a ton of metamagic to use).

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Not, too hard core as the dm is new....
....thinking about taking incantrix.

These two statements do not agree with each other. Incantatrix is probably tied for the most powerful/hardcore prestige class in 3.5 edition.


For a fire mage that's already got Sorcerer levels, there's a few routes you can go. I'm a big fan of sneak attacking with Split Ray Scorching Ray, considering it's a full-round action to spontaneously cast it with metamagic. The Rules Compendium says that precision damage can only be applied to the first attack unless it takes a full-round action to use (p42, last bullet). Invisible Spell is a +0 metamagic that can also be used to make it a full-round action, and it also won't give away your position if you've got greater invisibility on.

There are plenty of routes to take to accomplish this. I'd recommend dipping one level of either Spellthief or Psychic Rogue (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) for sneak attack, then throw on Unseen Seer, Spellwarp Sniper, and/or Arcane Trickster as needed. Take Arcane Thesis: Scorching Ray, along with Invisible Spell, Split Ray, Twin Spell, Searing Spell, and probably Practical Metamagic at least once.

You don't necessarily need to pick a ton of fire spells, just have a signature attack and probably also Fireball or similar for specific situations. The Fiery Burst reserve feat is an obvious choice, but if going the sneak attack route I'd get Acidic Splatter since it can be used to make ranged sneak attacks. If you're picking up reserve feats, just having Heighten Spell allows you to always count your highest-level spell slot toward activating those feats.

[shadowseve]

I'll also say she is going to try to become dragon born and will take the breath weapon aspect, thus she'll be able to qualify for some meta breath feats. Her prime goal is becoming a dragon.

[Kurald Galain]

Since you mention Pathfinder and draconic heritage, ask your GM for the Spell Specialization feat, and the draconic bloodline for sorcerers (which adds +1 per die to all your fire spells).

[shadowseve]

Thanks for the tips. Would it be worth taking any meta breath feats since I'll be going dragon born? Or should I just stick to things buffing my sorc levels?

Edit: if I'm correct, draconic bloodline for sorcerers is a template similar to dragon born correct?

[Troacctid]

My go-to feat for fire builds (when it's allowed) is the regional feat Bloodline of Fire (Player's Guide to Faerun). It adds an extra +2 caster level for your fire spells. That's pretty kickass, especially at low levels, since it boosts damage quite a lot while also helping against spell resistance, and as an untyped bonus, it stacks with everything. Another good one is the Greyhawk feat Jinnbond (Dragon #319), which gives +2 to fire spell save DCs if you choose efreeti ancestry. Again, very efficient for the price.

For sorcerers in particular, I also really enjoy Spell Thematics. It's similar to some of the other "+1 caster level for fire" feats (Elemental Spellcasting, etc.), but it's more fun. If you're not sure what theme to pick, I have a random generator (https://chartopia.d12dev.com/chart/29203/) for it.


For a fire mage that's already got Sorcerer levels, there's a few routes you can go. I'm a big fan of sneak attacking with Split Ray Scorching Ray, considering it's a full-round action to spontaneously cast it with metamagic. The Rules Compendium says that precision damage can only be applied to the first attack unless it takes a full-round action to use (p42, last bullet). Invisible Spell is a +0 metamagic that can also be used to make it a full-round action, and it also won't give away your position if you've got greater invisibility on.
I think you'll want to reread those rules again. You'll find that they only allow sneak attack (or other bonus damage) on the first attack you make for a weaponlike spell each round, regardless of casting time.

[Khatoblepas]

Something i like to do for fire mages is to do the old "make sure you're on the plane of fire" trick. Buy an empty lot in the City of Brass, a Quaal's Feather Token (Tree), and an eternal wand of Acorn of Far Travel. Travel to the City of Brass, throw down your quaal's feather token in your lot, and boom, you have a 60ft oak tree on the Elemental Plane of Fire. And while you're on the Elemental Plane of Fire:


Spells and spell-like abilities with the fire descriptor are both maximized and enlarged (as if the Maximize Spell and Enlarge Spell had been used on them, but the spells don’t require higher-level slots). Spells and spell-like abilities that are already maximized or enlarged are unaffected by this benefit.

Also, I believe Snowcasting + Energy Substitution [Fire] will allow you to take any energy spell and make it a fire spell. Even Creaking Cacophony could be changed to give people fire vulnerability. It'd be called something like Wildfire since it will still be more effective in forested areas, AND it will affect your breath weapon once you're a dragon.

[aglondier]

Being a halforc draconic (red) sorceror helps stack the fire damage.

Half-orc: Add +½ point of fire damage to spells that deal fire damage cast by the sorcerer.
Bloodline Arcana: Whenever you cast a spell with an energy descriptor that matches your draconic bloodline’s energy type, that spell deals +1 point of damage per die rolled.

[Anthrowhale]

Energy Substitution[Fire] seems like a great feat, particularly when combined with Dragonblood spell-pact.

In addition to Creaking Cacaphony, you can benefit from Waves of ColdFire, AcidFire Sheath, Anticoldfire sphere, ColdFire Snap, Algid Enhancement, Mantle of the Icy ColdFire, Lightning Leap, Lightning Fog, Lightning Ring, etc...

Basically, this allows a fire sorcerer to have much more versatility than just dealing damage while staying on topic.

[shadowseve]

I really like the idea of the snow casting and the energy substitute. I love the elemental plane trick!!! It's a home brew world but I'm def sure I can persuade a dragon friend that I'm with to help me out with something similar. So far I'm def getting searing spell, snow casting and energy substitute along with a few others that have been mentioned.

I haven't browsed through the magic item compendium yet, but I was wondering on some good gear to get for her.

[Anthrowhale]

A Ring of Mystic Fire is one obvious choice for an item.

[shadowseve]

A Ring of Mystic Fire is one obvious choice for an item.

Yeah, that is nice. Now the conversation will start on how it works with scorching ray. LOL. Any other items would be welcome.

[Troacctid]

Yeah, that is nice. Now the conversation will start on how it works with scorching ray. LOL. Any other items would be welcome.
The weaponlike spell rules answer this question: the damage bonus applies only to the first ray, regardless of whether it hits or misses.

I have an itemization guide for warmages. It should be relevant here as well. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GgINDD7nEVLs6B_ygsj4SLJza_YrZLGU89KdjIumP7M/edit

[Vaern]

Elemental savant makes all of your energy spells fire spells. It's not a terribly optimized choice since it effectively shuts you out from casting other types of spells to get around energy resistance and immunity, but I tend to favor it as a thematic choice for casters focused on a single element.
Fire in particular is a common resistance/immunity, but there is a metamagic feat whose name escapes me at the moment (scorching spell, maybe?) that'll let you deal half damage through immunity and straight up ignore resistance at +1 spell level if the need arises. There's a similar feat option for cold damage, though cold mages also have the lord of the uttercold option which deals half a cold spell's damage as negative energy at +0 spell level.

[Gavinfoxx]

Remember you can't set a Grease spell on fire. That's Incendiary Slime, from Complete Mage.

[shadowseve]

The weaponlike spell rules answer this question: the damage bonus applies only to the first ray, regardless of whether it hits or misses.

I have an itemization guide for warmages. It should be relevant here as well. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1GgINDD7nEVLs6B_ygsj4SLJza_YrZLGU89KdjIumP7M/edit

thank you. Just out of curiosity where is the rule for the weapon-like spells. I'd like to read it. :smallsmile: I'll def be looking over the list.


Remember you can't set a Grease spell on fire. That's Incendiary Slime, from Complete Mage. I didn't know you couldn't set it on fire. How come? I don't see anything in the spell that says it can't be ignited.

So far, here is a list, without looking at yours that I'm interested in. Would like opinions on what is good and what can be omitted. I've not added wands or scrolls.

Quaal's Feather Token (Tree), eternal wand of Acorn of Far Travel. Mithral Buckler of Heavy Fortification, Ring of Mystic Fire, Bracers of Armor, Glove of Storing, Cloak of Charisma, Amulet of Health, Ioun Stones, Robe of the Archmagi, Hewards's Fortifying Bedroll, Anklets of Translocation, Circlet of Rapid Casting, Ring of Theurgy.


Elemental savant makes all of your energy spells fire spells. It's not a terribly optimized choice since it effectively shuts you out from casting other types of spells to get around energy resistance and immunity, but I tend to favor it as a thematic choice for casters focused on a single element.
Fire in particular is a common resistance/immunity, but there is a metamagic feat whose name escapes me at the moment (scorching spell, maybe?) that'll let you deal half damage through immunity and straight up ignore resistance at +1 spell level if the need arises. There's a similar feat option for cold damage, though cold mages also have the lord of the uttercold option which deals half a cold spell's damage as negative energy at +0 spell level.
Oh I plan on taking searing spell and a few other tidbits.

[Gavinfoxx]

I didn't know you couldn't set it on fire. How come? I don't see anything in the spell that says it can't be ignited.


Because:

1.) It doesn't say it can. Spells do what they say, and nothing more. This is a major change from 3e, which is designed to be simulationist/gamist, compared to earlier editions which were more freeform/narrativist in focus
2.) It's not actually summoning 'grease' as in the mundane substance that's common in medieval towns that have access to animals to make it from. It's creating/conjuring a slippery grease, but there's nothing to indicate it's animal fat or anything, it's probably more similar to a synthetic, non-flammable, high-temperature lubricant.
3.) There's a version that actually IS flammable, and it specifically is a level TWO spell, not a level ONE spell, AND it references that the main difference between it and the original Grease is that the higher level one is also highly flammable, thereby letting us know that the original one, the level 1 Grease is NOT flammable.

"This spell functions like grease (PHB 237), but the liquid is also highly flammable. If any fire damage is dealt within the area of the spell (or to the subject of the spell), the spell's area (or subject) bursts into flame. This effect deals 4d6 points of damage to anyone in the area (or holding the subject), but also ends the spell's duration. A successful Reflex save halves this damage."

[Kurald Galain]

1.) It doesn't say it can. Spells do what they say, and nothing more. This is a major change from 3e, which is designed to be simulationist
Simulationist means the opposite of that, i.e. that spells do whatever is reasonable in the simulation. Spells doing exactly what they say (even in situations where that makes zero sense) is gamist, not simulationist.

It's quite reasonable for a GM to decide that Grease is flammable (because, you know, lots of things are flammable). Note that regular fire deals 1d6/round, whereas that 2nd level spell deals a lot more.

[Gavinfoxx]

Sorry, I misspoke, edited; 3.5e D&D is, specifically, a gamist-simulationist hybrid, and specifically discourages, in the way the system was written, narrativism in character's abilities. Chances are, if you want to do a specific mechanical thing that involves the combat system, there is a feat/spell/class/alternative class feature/etc. that gives you access to do that, and you can't do that thing without access to that. In this case, if you want to do 'I want to cast a grease spell that I set on fire', there's a specific way to do that, that the game gives you access to, that you do not have access to otherwise. Essentially, being able to do that, to what is already in the running for the absolute best 1st level spell ever ANYWAY, would buff said spell far too much, and as such this requires a 2nd level spell.

[Kurald Galain]

if you want to do a specific mechanical thing that involves the combat system, there is a feat/spell/class/alternative class feature/etc. that gives you access to do that, and you can't do that thing without access to that.
I don't think that's true; usually, that's what (some) people who dislike 3E say. I've met quite a lot of 3E GMs who are reasonable about having spells or abilities have reasonable effects within the narrative.

[Troacctid]

thank you. Just out of curiosity where is the rule for the weapon-like spells. I'd like to read it. :smallsmile: I'll def be looking over the list.
It was originally printed in Complete Arcane and later reprinted in Rules Compendium.


I didn't know you couldn't set it on fire. How come? I don't see anything in the spell that says it can't be ignited.
If it could burn up and end its duration early, it would say so in the spell. Compare it with web, which is very specific about how it interacts with fire. Grease doesn't say anything about how much damage it would deal, whether it would still be slippery, how long it lasts afterward, or what difference it makes whether it's in the area mode or the object mode. At the very best, even if you were to rule that it is flammable, you'd be looking at burning up the slippery effect in exchange for the standard DC 15 Reflex to avoid having your clothes or hair catch fire for 1d6 damage. Hardly a wombo combo. I don't think it's even better than keeping the slipperiness!


So far, here is a list, without looking at yours that I'm interested in. Would like opinions on what is good and what can be omitted. I've not added wands or scrolls.

Quaal's Feather Token (Tree), eternal wand of Acorn of Far Travel. Mithral Buckler of Heavy Fortification, Ring of Mystic Fire, Bracers of Armor, Glove of Storing, Cloak of Charisma, Amulet of Health, Ioun Stones, Robe of the Archmagi, Hewards's Fortifying Bedroll, Anklets of Translocation, Circlet of Rapid Casting, Ring of Theurgy.
You can't have an eternal wand of a divine spell. Glove of storing is overpriced. Ioun stones are overpriced. Ring of theurgy is not very efficient.

[Gavinfoxx]

I don't think that's true; usually, that's what (some) people who dislike 3E say. I've met quite a lot of 3E GMs who are reasonable about having spells or abilities have reasonable effects within the narrative.

Sure, an individual DM can do whatever. But the system, by it's nature and the fact that there ARE a ton of rules covering everything and niche ways to do basically everything, actively discourages that.

[Gruftzwerg]

I'll also say she is going to try to become dragon born and will take the breath weapon aspect, thus she'll be able to qualify for some meta breath feats. Her prime goal is becoming a dragon.

If you want to be a dragon and want (fire) breath weapons, would a Dragonwrought (feat) Kobold, Dragonfire Adept (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2)not be a better solution?
The Dragonwrought feat turns the Kobolds type into "dragon" and lets him ignore aging penalties (start at higher age to get +3 to all mental stats).
Dragonfire Adept is an easy class to build for having fun with breath weapons and can make great use of meta breath feats.

Imho that is all the fluff that you are asking for. Or are there specific reasons why you want to pick sorcerer for this build theme?

[shadowseve]

If you want to be a dragon and want (fire) breath weapons, would a Dragonwrought (feat) Kobold, Dragonfire Adept (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2)not be a better solution?
The Dragonwrought feat turns the Kobolds type into "dragon" and lets him ignore aging penalties (start at higher age to get +3 to all mental stats).
Dragonfire Adept is an easy class to build for having fun with breath weapons and can make great use of meta breath feats.

Imho that is all the fluff that you are asking for. Or are there specific reasons why you want to pick sorcerer for this build theme?

Dragonfire adepts are easy, but doesn’t fit this character. When I create a character I’m never creating it specifically just to look the most effective on a sheet of paper. This is a character that it is in my own personal created world that I decided to roll into a character for dnd. Outside of dnd she is a dragon and the archmage of her respective continent. I’m usually not the type to take odd prestige classes just to add power to a character unless it makes sense from an rp standpoint.

[Ramza00]

It is 3rd Party Pathfinder [dreamscarred press]...but I like the Ancestor’s breath feat for thematic reasons. Gain a breath weapon that does HD*d6 Fire Damage (or other choices) in a 30-ft. cone or 60-ft. line (you choose when you take said feat.)

Can not take this feat without one of the half a dozen heritages, so no baseline human, but 1 trait, or half a feat gets you said heritage under pathfinder.

[shadowseve]

It is 3rd Party Pathfinder [dreamscarred press]...but I like the Ancestor’s breath feat for thematic reasons. Gain a breath weapon that does HD*d6 Fire Damage (or other choices) in a 30-ft. cone or 60-ft. line (you choose when you take said feat.)

Can not take this feat without one of the half a dozen heritages, so no baseline human, but 1 trait, or half a feat gets you said heritage under pathfinder.

She’ll eventually become a full dragon at some point. But that’ll be way far down.

[Gruftzwerg]

Dragonfire adepts are easy, but doesn’t fit this character. When I create a character I’m never creating it specifically just to look the most effective on a sheet of paper. This is a character that it is in my own personal created world that I decided to roll into a character for dnd. Outside of dnd she is a dragon and the archmage of her respective continent. I’m usually not the type to take odd prestige classes just to add power to a character unless it makes sense from an rp standpoint.

?
Sorcerer is considered stronger than Dragonfire Adept. In fact DFA is one of the weaker classes in the tier list. The sorcerer hits T2 while the DFA can be happy if he can reach T3-4.

Further DFA is not a prc, it is another base class added by spattbooks. I suggested the DFA Kobold because I thought it would fit your desire (I may be wrong here^^) and it is a more simple solution.

If you are concerned about power lvl, imho you should start by ignoring T1-2 classes and stop assuming that the things you don't know have to be stronger. ;)

[shadowseve]

?
Sorcerer is considered stronger than Dragonfire Adept. In fact DFA is one of the weaker classes in the tier list. The sorcerer hits T2 while the DFA can be happy if he can reach T3-4.

Further DFA is not a prc, it is another base class added by spattbooks. I suggested the DFA Kobold because I thought it would fit your desire (I may be wrong here^^) and it is a more simple solution.

If you are concerned about power lvl, imho you should start by ignoring T1-2 classes and stop assuming that the things you don't know have to be stronger. ;)

I think you're misunderstanding what I was talking about. I was not saying the dragonfire adept was a strong class. I'm well aware of the tier system and that a sorcerer is a t2 and the dragonfire adept is down. What I was saying is that I build characters by what it would be rp wise, not necessarily what makes it easier or more powerful (again not saying the dragonfire adept is powerful as I have played one. She was a Raptoran named Sapphire. Was a fun game.), but how I envision the character to be. I don't mind digging into complicated things as long as it fits the character, I've played plenty of gestalt characters and weird combinations, but it fit the character. I can see how the post I made was confusing and I apologies for that. What I was saying is I build a character for storyline and rp first in general, the bit about odd prestige classes being added was not meant to be tied to the character I'm building but in general. Make better sense? But I appreciate the suggestion

[Troacctid]

I'm guessing it's not a fit but I've always been interested in the silver pyromancer from Everton. You can convert some fire damage to sacred, and get access to paladin spells.

You have to be lawful good, and turn undead (one level of sacred exorcist) ...
If you're just looking to untypify your fire spells, Sanctified One of Kord is a little easier to get into.