View Full Version : The Daemon - A New TWF Base Class (PEACH)

2007-11-06, 09:19 PM
The Daemon

”Long purported to be the red-headed stepchild of combat, two-weapon fighting is a sub-par method of carrying out the primary function of an adventurer—that is, dispatching your opposition.”

The paths of the warrior are many. While each warrior extols his own practices as the best, they are in reality all different means to the same end. Though the different bodies of thought lay out different rules for combat, different ways of fighting, and though each warrior fights for different causes, in the end, each warrior wants the same, simple thing - to beat their opponent. Though many people treat all warriors the same, here are many different kinds, with unique ways of dispatching their opposition. The gish, who blend magic with personal combat, the martial adepts, who practice blade magic, the psionicists who enhance their bodies for combat, the holy warriors who fight for the glory of their faiths. Different warriors use different tactics - some favoring the grace of unarmed attacks, others preferring to attack precisely from the shadows, some with finesse, others with raw power. Some wear shields, some give their all to their weapons... and then there are the Daemons. Daemons wear little or no armor, the better to stay loose and keep the world's threats at bay with their blades. They lose themselves in combat and study how best to attack their opponents with two weapons, learning how to move around the battlefield swiftly and still execute dangerous combinations of two-weapon attacks.

Adventures: Daemons adventure to better their combat abilities. For a Daemon, battle is the most important part of life. Friends, happiness, wealth - a Daemon treasures all these things, but feels the need to constantly improve its battle prowess while enjoying these less important pursuits.

Alignment: Daemons tend to be somewhat single-minded, and generally have very simple worldviews. Daemons exist in all varieties; lawful daemons often serve as guards and enforcers of cities and kingdoms, while chaotic daemons seek release and challenges in the untamed wilderness. Good daemons impassively right wrongs in their journeys of self-improvement, while evil daemons seek to destroy all others to grant themselves greater advantage.

Religion: Daemons sometimes worship Fharlanghn as the embodiment of freedom or Lyris for her love of war and balance. Daemons more often tend to believe in beings or philosophies more primitive than those generally accepted, and will often worship spirits, animistic figures, or domains.

Background: Daemons tend to be raised in isolation, whether as orphans or as expatriate students. They are raised in sparse conditions to find the ultimate joy in battle, and while they may be parts of family or tribe units, they ultimately find their place in a chain of command or fit in best amongst philosophers or military groups.

Races: Elves, with their historic relationship with swordplay, make excellent daemons, while orcs, dwarves, and the more hefty races are less well-suited to the fluid grace that being a daemon calls for. The smaller races tend more towards dervishes than daemons, but humans certainly account for a great many of the daemons out there. Planetouched too, for some reason, also gravitate to the class, as their unique abilities are often enhanced by the adaptive, complicated combat styles.

Other Classes: Rogues best appreciate the beauty and precision of the Daemon fighting style. Likewise, barbarians and scouts can understand the fluid manner that daemons have, and work well with the lighter Daemon. Heavy fighters and clerics are generally stymied by daemons, especially if the Daemons tend towards animistic worship, but usually grant daemons a measure of wary respect. To spellcasters, daemons are just another class that fights ineffectively, and isn't even any good at protecting those who meld the will of the world.

Role: The Daemon works well as a scout, as it is usually able to move effectively and stealthily if the situation calls for it. Daemons, with their odd ways, generally make pretty poor speakers for the party but can in some occasions relate to other kinds of people or creatures on a deeper level. In combat, they generally try to move around as much and set up devastating charge combos. It also helps to stay moving when the counterattacks come, as they aren't very hardy.

Game Rule Information

Abilities: Dexterity is clearly the most important ability for a daemon. It drives the attacks and helps the daemon avoid attacks. Constitution or Intelligence can also be helpful, in for extra hit points to soak up damage or extra skill points for reconaissance, respectively.

Alignment: Neutral good, lawful neutral, chaotic neutral, or neutral evil.

Hit Die: d6

Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Int modifier

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

+0|Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Finesse, Style Choice

+0|Two-Weapon Rend +1d6

+1|Two-Weapon Defense

+1|Novice Style

+1|Fast Movement +10ft.

+2|Supernatural Enhancement +1

+2|Two-Weapon Rend +2d6

+2|Two Weapon Excellence

+3| Fast Movement +20 ft.

+3|Initiate Style


+4|Two-Weapon Rend +3d6

+4|Supernatural Enahncement +2

+4|Fast Movement +30 ft.

+5|Adept Style

+5|Two-Weapon Triumph

+5|Two-Weapon Rend +4d6

+6|Fast Movement +40 ft.

+6|Supernatural Enhancement +3

+6|Master Style


Class Skills:
The daemon's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are: Bluff (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Ride (Str), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Tumble (Dex)

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Daemon is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and any one exotic weapon, as well as light armor and shields (except tower shields).

Two-Weapon Fighting: A Daemon gains Two-Weapon Fighting (GiantITP fix, see below) as a bonus Feat.

Two-Weapon Finesse (Ex): A Daemon may apply its Dexterity modifier, in place of its strength modifier, on attack rolls, as the feat Weapon Finesse, but only for the signature weapons it chooses for its school. A Daemon may also take the Weapon Finesse feat to gain that benefit with other weapons, but the two feats do not stack (you do not add your dexterity bonus twice).

Style Choice: A Daemon must choose a specific direction to focus its studies of fighting with two weapons. It can choose any one of the styles in the table below. Once made, the focus cannot be changed, except under special circumstances (see the Trials below). The Daemon receives special benefits appropriate to each style as time goes on. A Daemon wearing medium or heavy armor or carrying a medium or heavy load is too encumbered to execute styles

b]Two-Weapon Defense[/b]: At third level, a Daemon gains Two-Weapon Defense (GiantITP fix, see below) as a bonus Feat.

Fast Movement (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a Daemon gains a +10 foot enhancement bonus to its base land speed. This bonus increases to +20 feet at 9th level, to +30 feet at 14th level, and to +40 feet at 18th level. A Daemon loses this bonus when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.

Supernatural Enhancement (Su): In time, a Daemon acquires an otherworldly ability to wield their weapon to great effect. At 7th level, any style weapons that a Daemon wields are treated as having a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls, of a type based on alignment, and are treated as aligned weapons. For instance, upon reaching 7th level a good Daemon wielding its style weapons treats those weapons as having a +1 sacred bonus to attacks and damage, which overcome damage reduction good, whereas an evil Daemon would wield weapons with a +1 profane bonus to attacks and damage, which overcome damage reduction evil. A chaotic Daemon's weapons have an anarchic bonus and count as such, and lawful Daemon's wield supernaturally axiomatic weapons.
Two-Weapon Rend (Ex): Any time a Daemon hits with two attacks at the same attack bonus, it deals precision damage according to the table listed. For instance, upon reaching 12th level, a Daemon that hits with both primary attacks would deal an additional 3d6 damage. After that, however, if it hit with its first iterative mainhand attack at a +7 BAB but only hit with its off-hand attack on the second iterative attack would not deal the bonus dice of damage.
A Daemon wearing medium or heavy armor or carrying a medium or heavy load cannot execute a Two-Weapon Rend.

Pounce (Ex): If a Daemon charges, it can make a full attack. A Daemon wearing medium or heavy armor or carrying a medium or heavy load cannot pounce.

Two-Weapon Excellence (Ex): At 8th level, the penalty for fighting with two weapons decreases by 1 for each weapon. A Daemon loses this bonus when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.

Two-Weapon Triumph (Ex): At 18th level, the penalty for fighting with two weapons decreases by another 1 for each weapon. A Daemon loses this bonus when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.


Two-Weapon Fighting
Prerequisites: Base Attack Bonus +1, Dexterity 13+
Benefits: You are able to attack with two weapons with relative ease. Your penalties on attack rolls for fighting with two weapons are reduced. The penalty for your primary hand lessens by 2 and the one for your off hand lessens by 6. See the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack.

When your Base Attack Bonus is +6 or greater, you may make an additional off-hand attack . In addition to the standard single extra attack you get with an off-hand weapon, you get a second attack with it, albeit at a -5 penalty.

When your Base Attack Bonus is +11 or greater, you may make an additional off-hand attack. You get a third attack with your off-hand weapon, albeit at a -10 penalty.

When your Base Attack Bonus is +16 or greater, you may make an additional off-hand attack.. You get a fourth attack with your off-hand weapon, albeit at a -15 penalty.

Normal: If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. See the Two-Weapon Fighting special attack.

Special: A fighter may select Two-Weapon Fighting as a bonus feat.

Feats that have Improved Two-Weapon Fighting or Greater Two-Weapon Fighting as their prerequisites should instead use Two-Weapon Fighting as a prerequisite, as well as the Base Attack Bonus needed for the replaced feat.

(TWD and others forthcoming)

This class is based off of these two (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57293) discussions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57228) on fixing Two-Weapon Fighting. I also got a lot of inspiration from the seemingly abandoned (and seemingly overpowered) unfinished character class idea the Dragon Fang (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60304), but this class is different a) because I had my own ideas for how a TWF class should work b) I wanted to utilize our feat fix and c) I had an idea for a whole expanded TWF system of styles and schools.
All critiques and suggestions are welcome. More material forthcoming.

2007-11-06, 10:08 PM
*Reserved for Daemon Styles and schools*
Daemons study the art of two weapon fighting within a number of different schools, as determined by the weapons they fight with. The schools are organized into three style groups, as shown below.
Crab|One-handed and Light
Mantis|Two of the Same
Piranha|Two light

Novice Style: At fourth level, the Daemon gains novice mastery of its chosen style. It gains a benefit based on the style chosen at first level.

2007-11-06, 10:09 PM
*Reserved for Archer Variant and ToB Variant*

2007-11-06, 10:28 PM
Very interesting. I'm curious to see where it's going with styles and variants, but it looks cool for now.

The only things I notice:

- You should actually post what the changes are to the Two-Weapon Fighting feat and Two-Weapon Defence feats for anybody that hasn't read them.
- Weapon and Armor Proficiencies quote the barbarian, not the daemon.
- Two-Weapon Finesse doesn't have an ability type, and doesn't really make sense as written. It's more you get Finesse if you have Weapon Focus. Where does the two-weapon fighting come into play? Do they only get the benefit if they are fighting two-handed?
- Fast movement doesn't seem like it should be an enhancement bonus if it's extraordinary in nature, but that's just me. Perhaps a competence bonus?
- Supernatural Enhancement (no type) bonus only applies to the Good/Evil axis, then? Or can it bypass anarchic or axiomatic damage reduction as well? Also, 'alignment' isn't a type of bonus. As in, an alignment bonus to attack and damage. Again, do these bonuses only apply when fighting two-handed?
- Any particular reason why Two-Weapon Rend (no type) only works for primary iterative attacks?
- Pounce (no type) seems a little late at level 11. The main point of the class is to be charging in and dealing full attacks with two weapons. I know you don't want it to be a dip for Pounce, but a barbarian can get it at 1st level. You won't get much more of a dip than that.
- Two-Weapon Excellence (and Triumph) (no types) need to be reworded. Two-Weapon penalties are very strange and situational. Saying that they're arbitrarily reduced to -1/-1 makes no sense, since you never say that the daemon has to use two light weapons (-2/-2). They could just as easily be using two one-handed weapons at higher penalties, especially since you gave them proficiencies with them. I'd suggest saying instead that the penalties drop by 1 each time you get the ability. That way, it rewards all styles of play equally, and adds to the versatility of the class, in that it can be played in different ways.
- Two-Weapon Excellence quotes 'whatever' level. Presumably 8th.
- Actually write out the alignment restrictions instead of quoting a different source.

Still, very neat! I'll take a closer look when the styles are up. :smallsmile:

2007-11-07, 03:20 AM
Thanks, Kellus. I appreciate the advice, and will incorporate it immediately. More material coming up soon. There's a school surprise in there for you.

asphen fox
2008-04-06, 08:17 AM
Sorry to be the thread necro here. I'm really interested in this class since I love playing TWF characters. You guys haven't updated the specifics that they get from the schools they choose. :smallfrown: I'm thinking if playing this on the next campaign I'm gonna be joining.

Comment and Suggestion: Make TWF and TWD progress up to GTWD and GTWF. It doesn't make sense if they don't progress at all if you don't get the feats.

P.S. I seriously can't wait for the ToB variant :smallbiggrin:

2008-04-06, 10:02 AM
I would suggest adding in some feats from dandwiki.com. They ahve some really nice TWF feats over there that, if used correctly, can eliminate the TWF pentalty or can do some extra damage depending on the weapon being wielded.

OK i found an excerpt of some of the feats that I had found

Weapon Grace
You get to use your dex modifier instead of strength for regional weapons.

Twin Weapon Fighting
You suffer only a -2 attack pentaly to both weapons when wielding two of the same weapon. (dual wield picks with only a -2)

Two-Weapon Focus
When wielding a weapon that you have weapon focus in each hand with you can reduce the fighting penalty by 1, or 2 if the weapon is light.

Two-Weapon Power
You can double the power attack bonus damage when TWF.

So dual wield a scimitar with weapon grace, high dex, power attack, twin weapon fighting, two-weapon focus, and two-weapon power. Double your power attack bonus and suffer only a -1 to each attack.

PM me if you would like me to help you go through the feats to develop the schools, I've always loved the idea of TWF.

asphen fox
2008-04-06, 04:19 PM
I actually have a maneuver-stance table already made now. 15 maneuvers known, 8 readied, 8 stances known... Recover all maneuvers by total defense for one round... That sounds fine right? It's balance and everything, right?

Additional Comment: There should be something for shield and sword fighting for this class... It's proficient with shields and it can do better with Two weapons? I'd rather stick to weapons then.

2008-04-07, 11:18 AM
I would almost have to say that the class should mix a little bit of the Thornwalker and Masayaf Assassin homebrews. Each (and the Thornwalker abilitie was stolen from another homebrew, credit is given in its thread) has the ability to gain feats for the weapons of choice based on level, and with training for X amount of time all of the feats can change to affect te new item.
Example: I like to TWF with two hammers. Well I will train for 2 days with picks and all of my class granted weapon feats will shift to picks.

I have always TWFers as being the dex based fighters, and also I have always house-ruled that very light weapons that are technically one-handers (rapiers for example) can count as light weapons for purposes of off-hand penalties.

2008-04-09, 11:16 AM
MY DM would hate this. WHat, 10 d20 rolls at epic levels?

asphen fox
2008-04-11, 03:29 AM
:)) Yeah. But it IS epic, right?