PDA

View Full Version : Polymorph line, Broken, or not(totally)?



MeklorIlavator
2007-11-06, 09:34 PM
I know that the polymorph line of spells is generally considered the most broken line of spells out there(heck, my Pc's used it on me this weekend, so I'm a convert), but is the entire chain broken? Baleful Polymorph isn't usually considered that powerful, but what about the more recent editions, where you can only turn into one creature(the two I remember are Troll and Unicorn), but get more of the creature's special abilities instead? Are they Broken, powerful, or not worth it(excluding the rest of the line, of course).

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-06, 09:41 PM
Generally, the SHAPES line (let's differentiate them. Pollymorph is simply another thing altogether. Let's call it "The Munchkins' Cheap Whore", or TMCW for short) is pretty balanced, since by the level you get it, the bonuses are nice but not TOO broken. Now, Poly....baleful let's you turn a red dragon to pseudodragon, permanently. 'Nuff said.

martyboy74
2007-11-06, 09:51 PM
The new line of polymorph spells that limit you to one form are a lot less broken. Because they require you to spend one spell you know per form, and allow WotC to limit the forms available (read: no Gold Dragons for you!).

Baleful Polymorph is not more broken than any other save or die, because it can't be used as a buff spell, which is what breaks the rest of the line of spells. Baleful Polymorph is only really in the polymorph chain by fluff; crunchwise it has nothing to do with the rest of the chain.

OneWinged4ngel
2007-11-06, 10:03 PM
Yes. The Polymorph line is broken.


The new line of polymorph spells that limit you to one form are a lot less broken. Because they require you to spend one spell you know per form, and allow WotC to limit the forms available (read: no Gold Dragons for you!). That's what we call a fix, Joe.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-06, 10:03 PM
Generally, the SHAPES line (let's differentiate them. Pollymorph is simply another thing altogether. Let's call it "The Munchkins' Cheap Whore", or TMCW for short) is pretty balanced, since by the level you get it, the bonuses are nice but not TOO broken. Now, Poly....baleful let's you turn a red dragon to pseudodragon, permanently. 'Nuff said.
If the Dragon fails it's save... and you beat it's SR ... and quite frankly, any strategy that relies on "dragon" and "fails it's save" is a recipie for a quick trip to the graveyard.

Baelful Polymorph is a 5th level Save Or Lose. Considering some of the other spells at that level, it's not really all that broken.

Rest of the Polymorph line?

Yeah. Busted.

There's three basic methods (that I'm aware of) that have a chance of balancing Polymorph successfully:

1) Variant Summoning Method. Instead of "You+", it's "That-". If you use Alter Self to turn into a troglodite, you don't add a bunch of natural armor to your spellcasting - you become a brute that doesn't even have the proper Stench (you keep NONE of your own abilities, except, perhaps, your player cunning - you don't even spells with longer durations; instead, you get the creature you "turn into" minus whatever that version of the spell wouldn't be able to give you (but not plus your own version of it)). The Rogue you turn into a Hydra does not get Sneak Attack on all those attacks. A quick translator for any damage done in one form affecting the other, and you're good to go. Polymorph is still useful (great for getting around obstacles, great for a quick boost to cannon fodder) but not game-breaking.
2) Limited Options. Theoretically, you can balance Polymorph the same way Core balances Summon Monster - the spell is limited on exactly what you can get. You've got a list of X forms for any given spell (as low as one - WotC's done this with their newest attempt) that you turn into. You want a new form? Research a new spell. Compatible with 1, above.
3) Mostly illusion. You don't turn the Rogue into a Hydra. You make him look like a hydra, and give him a few natural attacks limited by your caster level and the version of the spell you're using. Spell has a sharp list of selectable abilities it can grant, with the spell balanced around how many of them there are and how good they are.

Fishy
2007-11-06, 10:05 PM
Generally, something is 'Broken' when it can be combined with something else, in a way that no one anticipated. If you're limited to mimicing other creatures visually, like changelings, or choosing from one of five stat boosts, like shifters, or picking only one form, like Trollshape, then the player, the DM, and Wizards knows more or less what the effects of shapeshifting are.

Polymorph/Wildshape/Shapechange and all that jazz let a player turn into a huge number of creatures from a huge number of books, for a factorial number of interactions with other feats and spells- it's almost *certain* that one of them will be unexpectedly powerful.

AtomicKitKat
2007-11-06, 10:09 PM
[QUOTE=Jack_Simth;3476768]1) Variant Summoning Method. Instead of "You+", it's "That-". If you use Alter Self to turn into a troglodite, you don't add a bunch of natural armor to your spellcasting - you become a brute that doesn't even have the proper Stench (you keep NONE of your own abilities, except, perhaps, your player cunning - you don't even spells with longer durations; instead, you get the creature you "turn into" minus whatever that version of the spell wouldn't be able to give you (but not plus your own version of it)). The Rogue you turn into a Hydra does not get Sneak Attack on all those attacks. A quick translator for any damage done in one form affecting the other, and you're good to go. Polymorph is still useful (great for getting around obstacles, great for a quick boost to cannon fodder) but not game-breaking.[quote]

Limit it to just keeping the extraordinary abilities and spell/energy resistances of both forms, and it's fine.

Really though, making the polymorph series cost XP per casting will limit their frequency of use sharpish. Say, 100-300 XP per HD of the form you're changing into/from, whichever is higher.

Chronos
2007-11-06, 10:25 PM
But how many really broken forms are known? Sure, creatures have all sorts of interesting abilities, but most of the best ones are either supernatural, or special qualities (not attacks), so you can't get them with Polymorph (which only gets you physical ability scores and extraordinary special attacks) Yeah, a twelve-headed rogue hydra is broken, but how many other breaks are there?

Clementx
2007-11-06, 11:13 PM
3) Mostly illusion. You don't turn the Rogue into a Hydra. You make him look like a hydra, and give him a few natural attacks limited by your caster level and the version of the spell you're using. Spell has a sharp list of selectable abilities it can grant, with the spell balanced around how many of them there are and how good they are.
This is my favorite alternative. Each spell in the series gets a list of abilities it grants based on CL, along with expanding availability of types to disguise yourself as. You can fluff all you want, but you are still limited by what buffs you select (which directs what you look like- if you want claws and a size increase, you aren't going to pass as a gnome, but looking like a troll is far game).

Aquillion
2007-11-06, 11:25 PM
Really though, making the polymorph series cost XP per casting will limit their frequency of use sharpish. Say, 100-300 XP per HD of the form you're changing into/from, whichever is higher.No. XP costs suck. They're basically a roundabout way of removing the spells from the books entirely.

...which is tempting, admittedly, but I think that the flavor of the polymorph school adds to the game, and I do think there should be some room for wizards to use their creativity in picking a form that helps in their current situation (I don't like the 'one spell, one creature' solution, although I could live with a limited list of creatures per spell.)

Disabling any of the subject's old abilities while they're shapeshifted would be a very good start. Honestly, an even better option going into 4th edition would be to design all creatures to work with Polymorph, Wild Shape, and gate-style 'grab a creature, any creature' spells from the ground up.

It's not as hard as it sounds. Treat it like LA: Give all creatures a 'value' for bringing them to your side based on their abilities. Some creatures (ones that can cast Wish, say) have a N/A, just like many creatures have no LA nowadays; those creatures could never be shapeshifted to or brought in by Gate.

...actually, I wonder if existing the LA rules could be used? In order to shapeshift to a creature, that creature must fit XYZ strict requirements (some basic things to allow animals and a few other things that have no LA for reasons of, say, no hands and not because they're overpowered), or its LA + HD must be equal to or less than both your CL and the HD of the person you're casting the spell on (if casting it on someone else.) This is on top of the "changing shape replaces all your old class and race abilities", of course.

How would that work? Can anyone see a way to exploit it? The polymorph line would still be very useful under that rule due to its versatility, but no longer as horribly broken. Basically, you can only polymorph into things you could legitimately be playing as at your current ECL.

Prometheus
2007-11-06, 11:40 PM
@Aquillion:The only problem is that most creatures don't have a LA and many of them are very appropriate for Polymorph. Polymorph would be a very different spell if it was limited to roughly humanoid creatures. Of course, the solution under that system is to give a LA to every reasonable monster but you are basically defaulting to the "List of Monsters" strategy.

Stam
2007-11-07, 12:07 AM
Mentioned above already by Jack_Smith, limit the caster to a number of forms. On one site I play on, this quick fix was applied in two ways:
#1, MM creatures only. (No, that does not mean the entire Monster Manual series, it means the original Monster Manual that the spell was written with reference to.)
#2, one chosen form per caster level, selectable when you gain access to the spell, and swappable whenever you gain a new level.
#3 (this one's plain common sense, and so is not included in the count) The player must have a reference of important stats changed when using this spell - otherwise, the spell's casting is simply wasted. Your critter, piled atop all your buffs? Your accounting.

Rich Burlew's Polymorph rules (http://www.giantitp.com/articles/dC21fDHZ4tK8n5OjUm9.html), here on this very site. Take as much or as little of it as you like, his idea of limiting stat boosts to the caster's CL (as well as ruling common-sense on what the spell should and shouldn't grant) prevents ultimate cheese. Taken further, it severely limits the shapechange-abuse.
If you swap out Alter Self for his version, you also no longer totally invalidate Barkskin. Enjoy :smallsmile:

John Campbell
2007-11-07, 05:39 PM
In our game, the DM applies that "that you are familiar with" in the shapechange description strictly to all the spells in the line, and forbids Natural Spell, or, indeed, any casting when not in one's natural form.

This, IME, pretty well un-breaks polymorph. I'm limited to stuff that I've actually encountered for target forms, which keeps me from browsing the MMs and whipping out the sickest thing I can find with HD low enough that I can do it, and it gives the DM indirect control over what I can use... basically, nothing that he hasn't already used on us.

And I can't cast spells when polymorphed. Combined with not getting the Su/Sp abilities of the target form, or even the Ex Special Qualities, this means that there's basically nothing I can turn myself into that's more dangerous than my natural form (though it helps, I suppose, that I'm pretty tanky for a wizard anyway).

As a result, I've never polymorphed myself. I do use it on my familiar to turn him into a flying mount (wyverns are way faster than overland flight) or make him combat-useful (which is risky, because, though his hit points are excellent for a familiar (See: me, tanky), he's still awfully fragile against CR-appropriate stuff... I got him killed doing this once, and while the DM let us raise him, I still had to eat the XP loss) or whatever, but, while useful, the power level's not wildly out of line with my other 4th-level spells.

Baleful polymorph's broken, but no more so than any number of other save-or-lose spells.

Shapechange is still broken, but, really, if turning yourself into a CR-appropriate monster is the most broken thing you can come up with to do with a 9th-level spell, you're doing something seriously wrong.

tyckspoon
2007-11-07, 05:56 PM
And I can't cast spells when polymorphed. Combined with not getting the Su/Sp abilities of the target form, or even the Ex Special Qualities, this means that there's basically nothing I can turn myself into that's more dangerous than my natural form (though it helps, I suppose, that I'm pretty tanky for a wizard anyway).


Not even if you pick something with dextrous hands and the ability to speak languages? What about prepping all your spells as Stilled and/or Silenced? If your DM's restriction is that extreme, it seems a little over-harsh to me; most of the forms that are capable of human-like spellcasting aren't the most broken forms you can take with Polymorph, and you pay for Still/Silent in spell levels.

Temp
2007-11-07, 06:01 PM
As much as I loathe this fix, the best balanced that maintains the concept of the spell is the "catalogue" option where a spellcaster chooses options from a set list of bonus (not replacement) features.

Usually it means something like Alter Self will simply turn you into another creature type and give +10 to your disguise check.

Polymorph will add to Alter Self by granting options along the lines of the Astral Construct "catalogue"--alternate mobility types, statistic increases, new natural attacks, several feats and size alterations. Higher caster levels (or recipient HD) mean more of the options can be selected.

And while higher caster levels mean a Transmuter can choose more options, higher level versions of Polymorph grant better options.

MeklorIlavator
2007-11-07, 06:08 PM
Well, the problem I had last night was that the wizard cast it on the cleric to turn him into a Remorhaz, who proceeded to grapple/swallow one of the two vrocks, effectively killing it due to the fire and blugening damage. Sure, it got out the next turn, but the other party members would have easily killed it.

Temp
2007-11-07, 06:13 PM
Yeah, that's a nasty one. You should also look out for Treeants, Wyverns, Hydras and Annis Hags... Those are the ones that usually* give the most trouble.

*War Trolls and the like aren't always options.

Dalboz of Gurth
2007-11-07, 06:14 PM
Polymorphs were never broken in 2nd edition (providing you actually READ the rules). What the heck happened in 3rd edition?

MobiusKlein
2007-11-07, 06:27 PM
It's also broken from a bookkeeping point of view.
Any spell that requires pouring over the character sheet, monster manual, and spending 15+ minutes arguing over SQ vs SA is a nightmare independent of the play balance issues.

Lochar
2007-11-07, 06:29 PM
In the game I'm running, I'm making the player burn skill points for it, on specific knowledge checks.

First 5-7 they want, they roll DC 10 + HD on nature, dungeoneering, etc., depending on where the creature is found.

Then I'm going to ramp it up to 10 + 2x HD, then 3x HD, and so forth, unless it's a creature I've already thrown at them in game.

Tor the Fallen
2007-11-07, 06:37 PM
In our game, the DM applies that "that you are familiar with" in the shapechange description strictly to all the spells in the line, and forbids Natural Spell, or, indeed, any casting when not in one's natural form.

What about knowledge checks? A properly built wizard will almost never fail a knowledge check, save by DM fiat.

Jack_Simth
2007-11-07, 07:19 PM
Enjoy :smallsmile:

I'm not sure Rich's rules are an actual fix.

Sure, they get rid of the Wizard grabbing +6 Natural Armor from the Troglodite for half an hour at 3rd level (at a point when the Druid's Barkskin just grants +2) as well as a strength bonus (and Dex penalty - oh well) - but that's done mostly by dumping Alter Self entirely. Anthromorph (Sor/Wiz-4, 7th level) gives the ability to grab the same thing (at very little cost) for a little over an hour -plus a bunch of other stuff if needed - while still being able to cast spells, use equipment, and so forth; meanwhile, the best the Druid could do with non-polymorph spells is Barkskin again - at +3 natural armor. An Annis, for instance, gives +10 natural armor (+7 at 7th level with Rich's mod), while still being able to cast (it's basically humanoid), +2 Dex, +7 strength (capped from +14), and so on. The Wizard who turns into a Hag is just boosted - by a LOT. Compare to another 4th level defensive spell - Stoneskin, maybe - DR 10/adamantine, gone after a single battle where it's actually used. Greater Invisibility, which gives you a good miss chance (50%) but at one round/level, isn't going to win you any prizes (well, except for the Rogue).

For that matter, if anything, as Rich's rules have it as an adjustment to stats, it's more powerful than standard Polymorph when used in a "strong" manner - not less. Anthromorph that Rogue into a Gargoyle (I'm not going to pour over my books too much for an ideal form), and he gets four natural attacks to add sneak attack on, +4 to his already high dexterity, +4 to his mediocre strength, a fly speed, +4 Natural Armor, and (as a monstrous humanoid) can keep most the equipment the Rogue had anyway.

It's still got the "You+" open-ended issue that's ultimately why Polymorph gets broken fast. It limits certain aspects by caster level - but it's still very much there.

Starbuck_II
2007-11-07, 08:04 PM
But how many really broken forms are known? Sure, creatures have all sorts of interesting abilities, but most of the best ones are either supernatural, or special qualities (not attacks), so you can't get them with Polymorph (which only gets you physical ability scores and extraordinary special attacks) Yeah, a twelve-headed rogue hydra is broken, but how many other breaks are there?

I'll pointy out Mr. Cloaker. He has spells that aren't called spells: they are called Moan (Ex). Yes, he has extraordinary attacks that are basically spells. You get those.
Drawback: DC 10 + 1/2 HD (yours will be higher I bet) + Cha. So Sorcerors do better here.
The Stupor Moan acts like Hold Person. Yep, at will Hold Person (3rd level slot for Wizard) for a 4th level spell. Nice.