Necrotic Focus and iteratives?

[danielxcutter]

If a vampire had iterative attacks and hit someone with a Necrotic Focus weapon, would they drain levels each time? Or other undead, you get the idea.

It's pretty expensive and mostly for the DM to play with, so I guess that kinda balances that out somewhat, but that still sounds pretty strong.

[Gruftzwerg]

If a vampire had iterative attacks and hit someone with a Necrotic Focus weapon, would they drain levels each time? Or other undead, you get the idea.

It's pretty expensive and mostly for the DM to play with, so I guess that kinda balances that out somewhat, but that still sounds pretty strong.

I would say it works. Sure it is a strong option that can take most foes in a full attack. But at the lvl where you could effort the enhancement, you could have already optimized to kill with every single attack of your full attack. So it's still not that strong. Further, if you have a vampire with claws, you can go for beast strike (adds claw dmg on unarmed strike) to get iterative attacks. So there are other similar strong options.

Imho it's aimed more for players use and not DMs. Because as player if there is the possibility to face enemies that have these abilities, you'll most likely have defensive options against it. Immunity to ability drain & energy drain is easy to get. And player at higher levels who face undead enemies regularly tend to take em early. And if the players don't face undead enemies on a regular base, they are more likely to use these methods themselves against the enemies.

[danielxcutter]

But at the lvl where you could effort the enhancement, you could have already optimized to kill with every single attack of your full attack.

Yeah uh, no. I doubt even a fraction of most games do that.

[Gruftzwerg]

Yeah uh, no. I doubt even a fraction of most games do that.

the Necrotic Focus has a pricing of +3. So we are looking at a minimum of a +4 (price) Weapon =32k gold.
At 11th lvl you may buy this as an expensive item from your regular WBL.

11th lvl is a point where most builds should have hit their first dmg spikes, if your table does optimize for dmg. If you table doesn't optimize dmg, than nobody is likely to take this enhancement either = the problem never occurs.

You have to compare a certain dmg option (in our chase Necrotic Focus) with other optimized dmg options. You don't compare the dmg option to non-optimized dmg. That would make no sense.

And I'm not saying that you should use it at your table, don't get me wrong. It's up to each table to decide the powerlvl they want to play and I don't even suggest to play on max optimization lvl. I'm just saying that it is not a strong option for dmg optimization, that's all.

[danielxcutter]

I am asking “how strong in general”, not “how horrible can you say this compared to unrealistic degrees of optimization without outright stating that”.

I mean seriously, if you’re one-shotting enemies with single iteratives then either you or your DM is probably doing something wrong. Or the vast majority of players don’t go that far.

[Gruftzwerg]

I am asking “how strong in general”, not “how horrible can you say this compared to unrealistic degrees of optimization without outright stating that”.

I mean seriously, if you’re one-shotting enemies with single iteratives then either you or your DM is probably doing something wrong. Or the vast majority of players don’t go that far.

The answer still depends highly on the table/group. That is what I'm trying to tell you here ;)

If you table does know how to be prepared for high lvl content, it's a joke. Because they will have access to Death Ward (prepared or more likely a wand) and have access to spells/wands that heal drain.

On the other hand, if your group plays higher lvls without knowing how to be prepared (for higher lvl in 3.5), they will die easily (like to many other things they just aren't prepared to).

And if you want to use it as player/give it to a player, it is still not to strong. If you kill someone with hitting all iterative attacks of your full attack past lvl 11, that is fine imho. You invested half of your WBL for that. And the DM can occasionally throw a few immune enemies at the player to let his teammates shine more in those few fights.

Sorry, but you have to know yourself if killing a foe with a full attack past lvl 11 with that investment (half WBL) is to strong for your table or not. How should we know how the powerlvl of your table is? If you still insist to know how others feel about, I would say it is strong, but OK. Nothing overwhelming. But some DMs or player may still have a hard time dealing with it, if they lack the knowledge to counter it.

[Thurbane]

Energy Drain (Su)
Living creatures hit by a vampire’s slam attack (or any other natural weapon the vampire might possess) gain two negative levels. For each negative level bestowed, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points. A vampire can use its energy drain ability once per round.

Bolding mine. It doesn't say "A vampire can only inflict energy drain with natural weapons once per round.", it says "A vampire can use its energy drain ability once per round."

I don't see anything in the wording of a Necrotic Focus weapon that would circumvent this.

Note that most other undead, like Wights, lack this wording.

[danielxcutter]

Bolding mine. It doesn't say "A vampire can only inflict energy drain with natural weapons once per round.", it says "A vampire can use its energy drain ability once per round."

I don't see anything in the wording of a Necrotic Focus weapon that would circumvent this.

Note that most other undead, like Wights, lack this wording.

So, ruling that it should only apply for a vampire on the first successful hit in a round is legit while wights get it on all their iteratives?

[Gruftzwerg]

So, ruling that it should only apply for a vampire on the first successful hit in a round is legit while wights get it on all their iteratives?

Yeah, seems as if vampires have limited access to their drain energy ability. But they can still make full use of their Blood Drain ability with a Necrotic Focus weapon. And Blood Drain is the deadlier effect of the two at higher lvls (11+). Past lvl 11 you have to assume that your foe has around ~11 HD which would need more hits in most chases than depleting the foes CON with 1d4Con drain per attack.

Another selling point for the enhancement is, that it seems to have no activation cost. You can easily switch between ability and energy drain in your full attack.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, seems as if vampires have limited access to their drain energy ability. But they can still make full use of their Blood Drain ability with a Necrotic Focus weapon. And Blood Drain is the deadlier effect of the two at higher lvls (11+). Past lvl 11 you have to assume that your foe has around ~11 HD which would need more hits in most chases than depleting the foes CON with 1d4Con drain per attack.

Another selling point for the enhancement is, that it seems to have no activation cost. You can easily switch between ability and energy drain in your full attack.

Necrotic Focus explicitly says "as if with your natural weapons", and Blood Drain doesn't use natural weapons.

[Gruftzwerg]

Necrotic Focus explicitly says "as if with your natural weapons", and Blood Drain doesn't use natural weapons.

?

A vampire can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check.
I would assume that fangs are natural weapons or am I missing here something. (if yes.. sry, I just woke up..^^)

[danielxcutter]

Vampires do not have "fangs" listed in their natural attacks, or bites or anything.

[Gruftzwerg]

Vampires do not have "fangs" listed in their natural attacks, or bites or anything.

They are not listed as "Attack:" because the ability can normally only be used under specific situations (grapple in our chase) and not with every regular "Attack:". The "Attack:" (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/intro.htm) line specifies your regular standard attack action options.

Attack

This line shows the single attack the creature makes with an attack action.

Compare it with similar things like "Rake"-attacks. They are also made by natural weapons (claws), but ain't listed as "Attack:".

And the Blood Drain ability refers to "fangs" to deliver the ability drain. And "fangs" are considered to be natural weapons (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons)in 3.5.

Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature.

Could I clear your doubts ? ;)

[danielxcutter]

By that logic, humans would have bite and claw natural attacks because they have teeth and fingernails.

You want to rules-lawyer this? You seriously do? Fine.

The wording of Rake says:


A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual -4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple.

Blood Drain merely says:


A vampire can suck blood from a living victim with its fangs by making a successful grapple check. If it pins the foe, it drains blood, dealing 1d4 points of Constitution drain each round the pin is maintained. On each such successful attack, the vampire gains 5 temporary hit points.

There is no mention of getting additional natural attacks. There is no attack roll that a natural weapon would require. And even if it was, merely getting a successful hit wouldn't let you blood drain with a Necrotic Focus weapon because you didn't pin them with the hit.

[Gruftzwerg]

By that logic, humans would have bite and claw natural attacks because they have teeth and fingernails. Does your human character have any "abilities" that call out the use of teeth and/or fingernails? I guess not. The vampire has a special attack that explicitly calls out its fangs. And since the Natural Weapon section is the Primary Source that defines what is and what is not a natural weapon, "fangs" fit perfectly into it.


The wording of Rake says:


Blood Drain merely says:



There is no mention of getting additional natural attacks. There is no attack roll that a natural weapon would require. And even if it was, merely getting a successful hit wouldn't let you blood drain with a Necrotic Focus weapon because you didn't pin them with the hit.
Yeah, neither of em spells out that you gain additional "natural attacks". One calls out that you get "claw" attack, while the other calls out a "fang" attack. Both are defined as natural weapons by the definition in the Natural Weapons (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#naturalWeapons)section.

edit: you don't need to pin the enemy since that is the normal application method, which gets trumped by the more specific weapon enhancement effect.

[danielxcutter]

Rake doesn’t spell out that it gives additional natural attacks? Read it again.


A creature with this special attack gains extra natural attacks when it grapples its foe. Normally, a monster can attack with only one of its natural weapons while grappling, but a monster with the rake ability usually gains two additional claw attacks that it can use only against a grappled foe. Rake attacks are not subject to the usual -4 penalty for attacking with a natural weapon in a grapple.

[Gruftzwerg]

Rake doesn’t spell out that it gives additional natural attacks? Read it again.

I think we missunderstood each other here. I was referring to the fact that you don't gain additional (new) natural attack (types). The quoted text talks about "extra attacks", a defined 3.5 term, while additional natural attacks can be interpreted differently imho.

Still doesn't affect my original arguments:
1. The "Attack:" line doesn't have to reflect all natural attacks. Rake is even called out in its ability as extra natural attack and is (as far as I am aware of) never part of the "Attack:" line.

2. The Blood Drain ability is a Special "Attack". Unless a Special Attack is magical (which Blood Drain ain't since it is an EX ability) you have only room for either manufactured weapons or natural weapons to attack.

3. Natural Weapons section
.. still is the Primary Source for its topic and as such any (Special) Attack with a part of the body, like fangs, are natural weapons.

[Darg]

When would a weapon be grappling an opponent in order to benefit from Blood Drain? Is there a special weapon out there that is able to grapple? I believe there is a dagger that damages on a grapple. That would allow energy drain to apply.

[danielxcutter]

I think we missunderstood each other here. I was referring to the fact that you don't gain additional (new) natural attack (types). The quoted text talks about "extra attacks", a defined 3.5 term, while additional natural attacks can be interpreted differently imho.

Still doesn't affect my original arguments:
1. The "Attack:" line doesn't have to reflect all natural attacks. Rake is even called out in its ability as extra natural attack and is (as far as I am aware of) never part of the "Attack:" line.

2. The Blood Drain ability is a Special "Attack". Unless a Special Attack is magical (which Blood Drain ain't since it is an EX ability) you have only room for either manufactured weapons or natural weapons to attack.

3. Natural Weapons section
.. still is the Primary Source for its topic and as such any (Special) Attack with a part of the body, like fangs, are natural weapons.

Most poisons are (Ex), but they aren’t natural attacks. They’re often - but not always - delivered through natural attacks, but they are not natural attacks in and of themselves. Clay Golems have Berserk and Cursed Wound listed in the Special Attacks section, but those aren’t natural attacks.


When would a weapon be grappling an opponent in order to benefit from Blood Drain? Is there a special weapon out there that is able to grapple? I believe there is a dagger that damages on a grapple. That would allow energy drain to apply.

I don’t think there’s a dagger with a specific ability that does that; you can attack with light weapons in a grapple anyways(albeit at a -4 penalty). There’s a feat called Scorpion Grasp that revolves around using light weapons for grappling and such, maybe you meant that?

And Blood Drain is not a natural attack. It’s a rider effect on a friggin’ combat maneuver. That’s like saying bull rushing or constrict are natural weapons.

[Gruftzwerg]

When would a weapon be grappling an opponent in order to benefit from Blood Drain? Is there a special weapon out there that is able to grapple? I believe there is a dagger that damages on a grapple. That would allow energy drain to apply.
The Necrotic Focus enhancement doesn't care under which circumstances you can use your natural attack. It only cares if you can deliver your Ability Drain or Energy Drain effects with you natural weapons. The vampires fangs count as natural weapon per definition (as in the Natural Weapon paragraph). That is all that it needs to use the drain ability with the enhanced weapon.


Most poisons are (Ex), but they aren’t natural attacks. They’re often - but not always - delivered through natural attacks, but they are not natural attacks in and of themselves. Clay Golems have Berserk and Cursed Wound listed in the Special Attacks section, but those aren’t natural attacks.

...

And Blood Drain is not a natural attack. It’s a rider effect on a friggin’ combat maneuver. That’s like saying bull rushing or constrict are natural weapons.

Sorry but I don't get where your poison argument is aiming at. But I will still respond to the rest.

Berserk: doesn't use a specific body part and thus can't be natural weapon as per the definition of natural weapons.

Cursed Wound: Imho they are Natural Attacks, even if your common sense would suggest otherwise. First have a look at this list of Natural Weapons (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?286497-101-Natural-Weapons). There are odd things like Armblades and Disintegrating Touch which are by 3.5 rules natural attacks. That being said about common sense regards "natural weapons in 3.5. Imho Cursed Wound is applied on contact. The skin is part of your body and thus qualifies for Natural Weapon.

Bull rushing/ constrict
Both use your entire body and not a specific body part, would be my counter argument here.

edit: added link that I did forget to add

edit2: yeah Blood Drain itself is not a natural attack. It is a drain ability that relies on fangs for the attack. Fangs are natural weapons and the weapon enhancement only asks for energy/ability drain abilities that are applied with natural weapons. All requirements fulfilled.

[danielxcutter]

Oh, so Sneak Attack with an unarmed strike is a natural weapon then. Sneak Attack, not just the natural attack itself.

I mean, seriously? :smallannoyed:

[Gruftzwerg]

Oh, so Sneak Attack with an unarmed strike is a natural weapon then. Sneak Attack, not just the natural attack itself.

I mean, seriously? :smallannoyed:

Unarmed Strike isn't done with a specific part of your body. You can do it with several mentioned parts of your body. That isn't specific.

Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature, such as a bite, a claw, a tail slap.
Same for Sneak Attack. SA can also be used with natural weapons, but is not sole restricted to a specific body part.

And yeah, I'm serious, but not annoyed :smallsmile:. Despite that you should have known my answer, since I just repeated the same argument + quote again to solve your riddle. So, are you seriously trying to get my point here?^^

[Darg]

The Necrotic Focus enhancement doesn't care under which circumstances you can use your natural attack. It only cares if you can deliver your Ability Drain or Energy Drain effects with you natural weapons. The vampires fangs count as natural weapon per definition (as in the Natural Weapon paragraph). That is all that it needs to use the drain ability with the enhanced weapon.

A vampire's ability drain requires a grapple check. Necrotic focus requires the "ability drain" supernatural ability to use that half of the "or" statement. Blood Drain is an Ex ability. Necrotic focus does not work with blood drain. Even if it did, you don't attack with a weapon when you make a grapple check. This is mechanically the case as per RAW. This means a vampire never uses a natural weapon to use Blood Drain and is not delivered with Necrotic focus. This is also the reason Energy Drain isn't delivered along with Blood Drain.

As for believing contrived and stretched rulings for those examples of natural attacks, I don't and never will. Cursed wounds is an Ex ability that adds an effect to the golem's attacks. Disintegrating touch is an Ex ability that triggers anytime the creature touches something. Any creature that can move and is capable of a standard action can make an unarmed touch attack. The attack entries include rider effects. If all the creature has is a plain unarmed touch attack, the attack is overwritten by riders.

Combined, Blood Drain can't be a natural attack nor delivered through a natural attack. Necrotic focus does not deliver Blood Drain's ability drain.

[Gruftzwerg]

A vampire's ability drain requires a grapple check. Necrotic focus requires the "ability drain" supernatural ability to use that half of the "or" statement. Blood Drain is an Ex ability. Necrotic focus does not work with blood drain. Even if it did, you don't attack with a weapon when you make a grapple check. This is mechanically the case as per RAW. This means a vampire never uses a natural weapon to use Blood Drain and is not delivered with Necrotic focus. This is also the reason Energy Drain isn't delivered along with Blood Drain.

As for believing contrived and stretched rulings for those examples of natural attacks, I don't and never will. Cursed wounds is an Ex ability that adds an effect to the golem's attacks. Disintegrating touch is an Ex ability that triggers anytime the creature touches something. Any creature that can move and is capable of a standard action can make an unarmed touch attack. The attack entries include rider effects. If all the creature has is a plain unarmed touch attack, the attack is overwritten by riders.

Combined, Blood Drain can't be a natural attack nor delivered through a natural attack. Necrotic focus does not deliver Blood Drain's ability drain.
Necrotic Focus doesn't care under which circumstances the creature could normally use his natural weapons. It just produces the same effect "as if attacking with its natural weapons", but doesn't require the same situation (grapple) to apply it.

But I have to give you full credit for the EX/SU problem! Necrotic Focus seems to limit itself to sole SU abilities. Drain abilities are generally SU. That doesn't stop the vampires Blood Drain ability to count as Drain Ability (being an exception to the norm). But sadly, this still doesn't help to legally use the Necrotic Focus enhancement..

Unless... you play PF (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/vampire/)...
PF seems to have fixed the vampires ability drain into an SU ability, to be more in line with other drain abilities. But that is only PF and not 3.5...

Really weird situation here..^^

[Darg]

Necrotic Focus doesn't care under which circumstances the creature could normally use his natural weapons. It just produces the same effect "as if attacking with its natural weapons", but doesn't require the same situation (grapple) to apply it.

That's what I am saying. A vampire never attacks with a natural weapon for Blood Drain to go off. That means "as if attacking with its natural weapons" excludes Blood Drain because there is no scenario where Blood Drain is activated on an attack with a weapon. A grapple check is weaponless and doesn't necessarily require doing damage.


But I have to give you full credit for the EX/SU problem! Necrotic Focus seems to limit itself to sole SU abilities. Drain abilities are generally SU. That doesn't stop the vampires Blood Drain ability to count as Drain Ability (being an exception to the norm). But sadly, this still doesn't help to legally use the Necrotic Focus enhancement..

Sadly, WotC does not understand the english language. The wording could be broad spectrum or exclusionary. The same issue occurs in the rules about melee thrown weapons being capable of a ranged attack. The PHB has melee thrown weapons making melee attacks when thrown instead of ranged attacks. The only place it even mentions a melee throwing weapon making a ranged attack roll is in the ability description of dexterity where it says that throwing axes are ranged weapons. They don't outright tell you that melee thrown weapons are melee and ranged weapons. You have to take inference from multiple areas in the book to even come to a conclusion on your own. The benefit of that is that fighters can take melee and ranged weapon mastery feats and they both apply to thrown weapons at all times.

[Gruftzwerg]

That's what I am saying. A vampire never attacks with a natural weapon for Blood Drain to go off. That means "as if attacking with its natural weapons" excludes Blood Drain because there is no scenario where Blood Drain is activated on an attack with a weapon. A grapple check is weaponless and doesn't necessarily require doing damage.
Blood Drain say explicitly that the vampire uses his "fangs" for this attack. When you use your fangs in an attack, you are using a specific body part = natural weapon. Again, the Necrotic Focus enhancement doesn't ask for the conditions under which the natural attack can be used (grapple in the chase of the vampire). The enhancement just ask if the wielder of the weapon has a natural weapon that can apply ability/energy drain and adds that as rider on each attack of the weapon.

But as said, the problem is still that as EX ability, Blood Drain disqualifies for Necrotic Focus in 3.5 sadly..^^




Sadly, WotC does not understand the english language. The wording could be broad spectrum or exclusionary. The same issue occurs in the rules about melee thrown weapons being capable of a ranged attack. The PHB has melee thrown weapons making melee attacks when thrown instead of ranged attacks. The only place it even mentions a melee throwing weapon making a ranged attack roll is in the ability description of dexterity where it says that throwing axes are ranged weapons. They don't outright tell you that melee thrown weapons are melee and ranged weapons. You have to take inference from multiple areas in the book to even come to a conclusion on your own. The benefit of that is that fighters can take melee and ranged weapon mastery feats and they both apply to thrown weapons at all times.
Dunno if I did get you right, but I think that you are under a misconception here. 3.5 can be easily misleading here (I had the same problems with them for years, just to let you know)..^^

You can throw many things in 3.5, but not everything is treated the same when you throw it.
a) real "thrown" weapons
Real thrown weapons are those primary designed for ranged combat and thus they are in the ranged weapon section (and thus allow for ranged weapon enhancements). They either can't be used with melee attacks (e.g. shuriken) or take -4 to hit when used to make melee attacks (e.g javelin).

b) melee weapons that are also designed to be thrown
These are melee weapons (! only melee enhancements !) which can be thrown without any penalties for using em as improvised ranged weapon.

c) throw anything as improvised ranged weapon
Take the -4 penalty and throw anything.

The difference here in the 3 categories is if you take a penalty for throwing it and which type of magical weapon enhancements (melee or ranged) are allowed (or not in chase of improvised weapons). E.g. just because you can throw a club without penalty doesn't mean that you can put ranged weapon enhancements on it. The club only has an exception called out to be used as thrown weapon with no penalty, but it doesn't say that it is also a ranged weapon.

And how Ability Scores affect your melee and ranged attacks stands on another page, but should be clear how it works. I don't see any problems here. I hope I did catch your point and didn't missed it?