Vs. Threads: ><

[Nebo_]

This is getting out of hand. I used to come to this forum and find it filled with interesting threads about the media (what a suprise!). Now I come here and I have to sort through the crap that is 'someone I don't care about vs someone else I don't care about' to find threads that are actually worth looking at. I don't care that you people waste your time with A vs B threads, but could you please do it somewhere else?

[Ego Slayer]

First, this would belong in Board Issues.

Second, yes, I agree that it can be annoying sometimes but this is the place, and it's allowed for now... :smallconfused:

[Green Bean]

I am unsure exactly where else it would be appropriate to have these discussions. Did they open a "Versus Threads" board while I wasn't looking. Besides, how exactly are these threads hurting you? :smallconfused:

[zeratul]

I think you're kind of exaggerating. There's generally only one popular vs thread at a time, and they generally aren't the most prominent thread.

Also if you don't like those threads why don't you just not read them?:smallconfused:

[Aquillion]

You should have named this thread "Nebo_ vs the Vs threads!"

My money is on the vs. threads. They're basically Mary Sue threads anyway, so it's not like they're going to lose. Especially the vs. threads from the most recent posts, after the time skip... they've gotten some totally ridiculous abilities since then.

(Although honestly, they're so popular I almost think it would be worth us having an entire seperate forum for them.)

[Green Bean]

You should have named this thread "Nebo_ vs the Vs threads!"

My money is on the vs. threads. They're basically Mary Sue threads anyway, so it's not like they're going to lose. Especially the vs. threads from the most recent posts, after the time skip... they've gotten some totally ridiculous abilities since then.

(Although honestly, they're so popular I almost think it would be worth us having an entire seperate forum for them.)

Nah. Versus threads may be popular now, but if you give it a bit of time, they'll burn themselves out, like they always do.

[A Rainy Knight]

I think that this topic was covered before by a mod somewhere or other in the Board Issues category. Basically, if you don't like versus threads, then don't read them. Some people do like them, so they're not being banned. At least that's what I recall having been said.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Verses threads come and go in popularity.

Generally all the verses threads eventually die, then some idiot starts another, then someone who thinks their character could beat that character makes an almost identicle thread with one differance, then another 4 people get the idea that verses threads are t3h c00ls, then it all goes insane, then all the threads die, then some idiot starts another, then someone who thinks their character could beat that character makes an almost identicle thread with one differance, then another 4 people get the idea that verses threads are t3h c00ls, then it all goes insane, then all the threads die, then some idiot starts another, then someone who thinks their character could beat that character makes an almost identicle thread with one differance, then another 4 people get the idea that verses threads are t3h c00ls, then it all goes insane, then all the threads die, then some idiot starts another, then someone who thinks their character could beat that character makes an almost identicle thread with one differance, then another 4 people get the idea that verses threads are t3h c00ls, then it all goes insane, then all the threads die, then some idiot starts another, then someone who thinks their character could beat that character makes an almost identicle thread with one differance, then another 4 people get the idea that verses threads are t3h c00ls, then it all goes insane, then all the threads die, then some idiot starts another, then someone who thinks their character could beat that character makes an almost identicle thread with one differance, then another 4 people get the idea that verses threads are t3h c00ls, then it all goes insane, then all the threads die, then some idiot starts another, then someone who thinks their character could beat that character makes an almost identicle thread with one differance, then another 4 people get the idea that verses threads are t3h c00ls, then it all goes insane, then all the threads die, then some idiot starts another, then someone who thinks their character could beat that character makes an almost identicle thread with one differance, then another 4 people get the idea that verses threads are t3h c00ls, then it all goes insane, then all the threads die, then some idiot starts another, then someone who thinks their character could beat that character makes an almost identicle thread with one differance, then another 4 people get the idea that verses threads are t3h c00ls, then it all goes insane, then all the threads die...

[xanaphia]

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59151

[Mordan]

Seems that a more accurate place for them is SMBG. But I'm not a mod and these aren't my forums, but that would be my vote.

Simply saying "they are found in media" is sort of rediculous, so are 99% of those heal/hurt threads, and yet they are SMBG. Would this fall under a "single standard" argument?

[Quezovercoatl]

Seems that a more accurate place for them is SMBG. But I'm not a mod and these aren't my forums, but that would be my vote.

Simply saying "they are found in media" is sort of rediculous, so are 99% of those heal/hurt threads, and yet they are SMBG. Would this fall under a "single standard" argument?

I disagree with that. Properly done a Vs debate should actually be a proper discussion rather than a silly game.
Note the title and description of this forum “Media Discussions Talk about books, movies, TV, or music here, safe from the judging eyes of the outside world.”
Now were do you think is a better place for a discussion between two characters from assorted media.

Also Nebo_ for the love of Cthulhu when you make a thread please give it a title that gives some indication to what the [insert expletive of choice here] the threat is about.

Although if we start getting too many of them a sub forum of Media Discussions would not be a bad idea.

[rollfrenzy]

Add my vote to the move them somehwere else crowd. They generally have little to do with any Rational discussion of a media and they all ( the VERY few I have actually flipped through) end up being this...

NO MINES BETTER:smallfurious:
NO YOURS IS BAD CUZ...MINES BETTER:smallfurious:

Ad Nauseum

They should go to SMBG, IMHO. They just clutter up this forum, and in general make me stay away. The only reason I was actually on is I was going to start a ME Vs. VS. thread when I saw this one instead.

I understand people like them (otherwise they wouldn't be around) So They shouldn't be banned, just put in thier own space so they can live and die without me having to hurt my brain reading all the inane matchups to find an actual thread.

[Skippy]

*snip*
They should go to SMBG, IMHO. They just clutter up this forum, and in general make me stay away. The only reason I was actually on is I was going to start a ME Vs. VS. thread when I saw this one instead.


No please, for the sake of all that's holy, don't send them to the SMBG! I love hanging around there, and if it fills with that kind of threads it won't be as fun anymore...

[B-Man]

I don't believe that they belong in SMBG. Reason? The Versus threads aren't games. They are discussion. Discussion really doesn't belong with the games. Sure they might be annoying, but not everything annoying belongs in SMBG. :smallannoyed:

[Om]

If anyone is interested, the top six threads in this forum, at the time of writing, are Versus threads. I've not updated my tracker yet but it looks like a couple of new ones spawned overnight. The volume of MD front page threads devoted to Versus arguments has been holding roughly at 20-30% for the last few weeks now. The highest was 38% and the lowest was 11% (or perhaps 8%).

This problem is, no doubt aided by the refusal of the admins to deal with it, simply not going away.

[Green Bean]

If anyone is interested, the top six threads in this forum, at the time of writing, are Versus threads. I've not updated my tracker yet but it looks like a couple of new ones spawned overnight. The volume of MD front page threads devoted to Versus arguments has been holding roughly at 20-30% for the last few weeks now. The highest was 38% and the lowest was 11% (or perhaps 8%).

This problem is, no thanks aided by the refusal of the admins to deal with it, simply not going away.

And how exactly are these threads a problem? :smallconfused:

[Om]

And how exactly are these threads a problem? :smallconfused:Because not everyone is interested in a discussion on whether Harry Potter would beat Gandalf in a duel on Mars. These are highly indulgent threads that are difficult to avoid.

Let me put it this way. What if I decided to post a thread on a different Pokeman duel a couple of times a day. (Which is actually more logical than the current threads - Pokeman all exist in the same universe) After a few days you might arrive at a point where over a third of the MD's front page is devoted to my Pokeman threads. That is, up to twenty other threads have been forced off the page by nonsense. Would you agree that this was a problem?

I don't care if Versus threads are banned, sent to the SMBG, or given their own forum. What I want is them to disappear from the MD.

[Jibar]

I must confess, I've stopped taking the Media forum seriously because of these threads.
I open up the board only to see if they've gone away and they haven't. :smallannoyed:

Edit: My God that sounded so... simple compared to other posts I've made.
Uh... I'm rather aggravated about the whole issue, and move for immediate reperations?
Big words. Goooood...

[Green Bean]

Because not everyone is interested in a discussion on whether Harry Potter would beat Gandalf in a duel on Mars. These are highly indulgent threads that are difficult to avoid.

Don't click. Not that difficult.


Let me put it this way. What if I decided to post a thread on a different Pokeman duel a couple of times a day. (Which is actually more logical than the current threads - Pokeman all exist in the same universe) After a few days you might arrive at a point where over a third of the MD's front page is devoted to my Pokeman threads. That is, up to twenty other threads have been forced off the page by nonsense. Would you agree that this was a problem?

Yes, but at that point it would simply be spamming threads; if you're doing it several times a day, you obviously don't care about the discussion.


I don't care if Versus threads are banned, sent to the SMBG, or given their own forum. What I want is them to disappear from the MD.

Seeing as Media Discussion is the best place for them, I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen.

[Om]

Don't click. Not that difficult.Which means that I automatically shun over a third of the MD's discussions. Perhaps I shouldn't enter MD either?


Yes, but at that point it would simply be spamming threads; if you're doing it several times a day, you obviously don't care about the discussion. No, I care passionately about Pokeman. I care so much that I'm willing to start a thread on every possible fight permutation. I'm also willing to pit Dumbledore... I mean Pikachu against every other creature from fiction. Not only that, but my idea catches on and soon a small group of posters are regularly making such threads and slowly strangling the MD.


Seeing as Media Discussion is the best place for them, I'm pretty sure that's not going to happen.Of course its not. The admins have twice locked threads on this subject and I have no doubt that they will soon strike again. Clearly I am not the only one who feels that having over a third of the MD occupied by Versus threads is a matter of importance. Personally I'm more than a little disappointed at the nonchalance and apathy displayed towards this issue by the administration team.

[Mordan]

If there was any form of discussion taking place, then it would be less of an issue. The solution of "don't click on them" doesn't help when the chief complaint is that you can't find anything else through all of them. They have become and infestation. The claim was made that they are legitimate discussions. Have you actually ready them? I would estimate that 1/10th of them could possibly be stretched to fall under the definition of "legitimate discussion" the rest are "cut and paste of the guy above me to make mine look larger, while I make a 3 word response". That is not a discussion, that is spam. Great, you don't want them on SMBG (because it'll clutter that board up, which is the complaint about having them here), then give them their own little sub-forum, but again, I feel I must reiterate, that all those heal/hurt threads also involve characters found in "media" and are therefor discussions as well.

[Green Bean]

Which means that I automatically shun over a third of the MD's discussions. Perhaps I shouldn't enter MD either?


That's something many board members do whenever they enter a forum; they ignore the threads that do not interest them.

[Om]

That's something many board members do whenever they enter a forum; they ignore the threads that do not interest them.Is there anyone who enters a forum and automatically ignores over one third of the threads? Probably not, because in most forums there is never a scenario where such a large percentage of the front page is occupied with a single genre of thread. Except perhaps for the SMBG.

There comes a point where it simply no longer becomes attractive for me to enter the forum at all. Jibar has passed this point and I am rapidly approaching it.

[A Rainy Knight]

If you want to discuss things other than versus, start some threads of your own. Personally, I've found that a good versus thread pops up every now and then. Other than that, I just ignore them. It's not like their presence makes the other threads disappear.

Again, I think that the mods have already decided this issue, though.

[dehro]

as participant to one or two of these Vs threads, I must say that I would not be against them having a place of their own, if their presence should become a regular one. untill that day it seems to me that they are in the right place.
there is however a flaw in the logic somewhere...
the creation of 1,3,6... Vs topics does not in any way limit the possibility for someone else to answer to some of the other topics or to open other threads in the same area. if someone had an interest in that direction, said thread would appear on top of the list, above the Vs threads.
this does not happen, so maybe there isn't much that other people want to discuss or haven't already discussed that could fit in this section of the Forum.
the Vs topics have however the same dignity as a Tolkien quiz or a Discworld quiz, or a topic on marvel comics, except that they are not based on facts and information but on opinions, and thus tend to be quite more lively and long-drawn, and tend to spark sequels or clones.
some of these topics present a downright silly confrontation, some are much more arguable, interesting and start debates from which it is also possible to learn facts and details that might have escaped our atention while we where reading the book or watching the movie. how is that bad?
the only sensible/logical reasons for closing such debates are if someone is starting to become rude/offensive..if the same things and explanations are being given again and again (as in a game of chess..once you have repeated the same moves for, I think, three times and there is no other solution than repeating them again, the game's off)
and if the the mods, or else the giant himself, do not like this kind of topics. in this last case it would be arbitrary but still legitimate.. and in all three cases, the Vs topics would rightfully be closed..but I don't recall any such reference in the rules or in any intervention by the Giant.

[CrazedGoblin]

i don't look at many, ive looked at a few but sometimes they get abit annoying hehe:smallbiggrin:

[Mordan]

As I recall it, even the people that would like to see them elsewhere aren't necessarly calling for them to be closed. Just merely placed someplace where they aren't cluttering up everything else.

Let me explain it this way. At one time, I'm sure there was no SMBG forum. And people kept posting those silly games, some of which do make a nice diversion. And at some point, someone suggested giving them their own little subcommunity within the Playground, so that they aren't constantly drowning out other things. Perhaps it is time to once again broaded the Boards here and put one up for this type of topic. It seems that they are fairly lively, and those that participate in them feel very strongly about their opinions, and woud endlessly debate their point of view. No one is saying they shouldn't be allowed, but rather, given their own little corner, someone near the see-saws for the teetotter debates to take place. The few comments that have been made about closing them down where made as last resort comments, not as a first suggestion.

[Nebo_]

I actually forgot I posted this thread...

@Ego Slayer: Yes, it probably should be in board issues, I didn't think of that until I had posted, though.

@h_v: They don't hurt me, they annoy me.

@Om: I'm glad to see that someone agrees with me on this.

[Emperor Ing]

I can also agree with you on this.

This is something you take up with your friends in real life for fun. Here, it can escalate to hostility.

[A Rainy Knight]

@h_v: They don't hurt me, they annoy me.

That just doesn't strike me as being a good enough reason to get rid of them. As far as I can tell, they don't keep you from posting on the threads that you want to, they don't keep you from posting new threads of your own, and some people must enjoy them or they wouldn't keep showing up. Furthermore, I think that this is the right category for them to be filed in, as they are discussions about characters from movies, books, games, et cetera.

[EvilElitest]

This is getting out of hand. I used to come to this forum and find it filled with interesting threads about the media (what a suprise!). Now I come here and I have to sort through the crap that is 'someone I don't care about vs someone else I don't care about' to find threads that are actually worth looking at. I don't care that you people waste your time with A vs B threads, but could you please do it somewhere else?

Thank you for such an elegant way of voicing your complaints, because nothing makes me feel loving and caring about other people's problems than somebody using vulgar and generally "Holier than thou" mannerism to try to censure and get ride of a things that bring me a good deal of enjoyment and and intellectual argument. I really think it is odd that you want to go to the threads you want, and yet deny others the same thing. Oh and the A vs B thread? It is one simple page per fight, for detailed fights you need your own thread. Really, i don't try to get rid of what ever threads you "waste your time on" treat me with the same respect
from,
EE
edit

If there was any form of discussion taking place, then it would be less of an issue.
well their is, so their shouldn't be an issue

The solution of "don't click on them" doesn't help when the chief complaint is that you can't find anything else through all of them.
Um, don't click on the ones the have the words "Vs." on them? Sounds easy enough to me.


They have become and infestation.
You could say the same of half the threads in the OOTS Board. It is a legitament discussion, than many people enjoy (other wise they wouldn't get so big so fast) and so what right do you have to take away that enjoyment. Hell, after the Voldemort vs. Sauron, i've re read the entire LOTRS series out of enjoyment because i realized how much i missed it.



The claim was made that they are legitimate discussions. Have you actually ready them?
I go on them all the time. If you read all my posts you'll find that i alway am talking about the current debate


I would estimate that 1/10th of them could possibly be stretched to fall under the definition of "legitimate discussion"
How so? The voldemort vs. Sauron thread is still in the realms of sanity. The link vs. Sephiroth got out of hand, but the people on the thread asked it to be closed



the rest are "cut and paste of the guy above me to make mine look larger, while I make a 3 word response".
Um, what are you talking about?


That is not a discussion, that is spam
and the evidence to back up your point is??????????

Hell, people could say the same thing about miko threads on the OOTS boards, and Paladin thread on the Gaming board. i don't gone on them, but i have nothign against them
from,
EE

[Nebo_]

I really think it is odd that you want to go to the threads you want, and yet deny others the same thing.

I didn't say that. I said I want them gone from here, not gone all together.


well their is, so their shouldn't be an issue
There


Um, don't click on the ones the have the words "Vs." on them? Sounds easy enough to me.

Read my initial post. I said I was sick of having to sort through vs. threads to find anything good. I was never clicking on them in the first place, their mere presence is the problem here.


Hell, people could say the same thing about miko threads on the OOTS boards, and Paladin thread on the Gaming board. i don't gone on them, but i have nothing against them

As long as we're on the subject, I don't like those threads either. Thankfully, Paladin threads aren't as common and I don't go on the OotS boards at all.

[Mordan]

I'm not going to take the time to cut and paste from assorted places to prove points, especially when people who do that tend to pick and choose the pieces of things, then take them out of context to make their points. I'm sure if I cut and pasted I could show a quote where just about anyone on these boards says "I hate you"

No one is trying to take away anyone elses rights to post on those threads. No one is trying to break your toys, or eat your crayons either. As I commented on before, at one time there was no board for "Games" then as they grew in popularity, one was created for them, to keep them from other boards. Great, how about this solution then, we leave all the VS threads here and create a new section for non-VS. Does that make you feel any better if I word it in a completely different manner? The ultimate outcome is the same. The VS threads have grown to such propensity that it's time they got their own place on these forums, rather then people who are not interested in them having to sort through them to find things are not them.

I would think that something like this would be a credit to them. They are obviously popular enough, despite my personal opinions about most of what takes place in them.

[Artemician]

Hey.. I have a better idea, guys. Why don't we create a subforum for Miko threads? Wizard vs X threads? "Monk's don't suck" threads?

After all, these sort of threads have grown to such propensity that it's time they got their own place on these forums, rather then people who are not interested in them having to sort through them to find things are not them.

[dehro]

As long as we're on the subject, I don't like those threads either. Thankfully, Paladin threads aren't as common and I don't go on the OotS boards at all.

you do seem a bit hard to please..as I said in my first intervention, I'm not against a dedicated place; if the Vs threads really are getting the best of other threads in this category, it seems sensible. however it also seems unpractical to do so just to humour someone who woul have only topics he likes, to browse through. if the majority of forumites where experiencing practical problems caused by this flood of Vs topics, I'd be the first to say yes (and I'm still saying yes even while I think they would do it for the wrong reason).. but I guess it's a bit of restructuring that will be avoided untill really necessary.

[Om]

Hey.. I have a better idea, guys. Why don't we create a subforum for Miko threads? Wizard vs X threads? "Monk's don't suck" threads?Have these threads at any point grown to the point where they regularly comprise 20-30% of their respective forums' front pages?

[Mordan]

Which literature is this one from: My gran's poodle Vs a dragon Vs philosophy Vs the grocery store


I was just wondering, because they sound really intersting and I might be tempted to read/watch them.

[dehro]

Which literature is this one from: My gran's poodle Vs a dragon Vs philosophy Vs the grocery store


I was just wondering, because they sound really intersting and I might be tempted to read/watch them.

:smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: I fear that's my fault... My reaction on one of the silliest of the Vs threads..

[Saithis Bladewing]

Hey.. I have a better idea, guys. Why don't we create a subforum for Miko threads? Wizard vs X threads? "Monk's don't suck" threads?

After all, these sort of threads have grown to such propensity that it's time they got their own place on these forums, rather then people who are not interested in them having to sort through them to find things are not them.

It should be called SMBG. :smalltongue:

[EvilElitest]

I didn't say that. I said I want them gone from here, not gone all together.

They concern two media characters fighting eachother, this is the media forum, i don't see hte problem. I don't read the "most intimating space ship" but i don't think it should be taken away, despite the fact it is their every time you go to his board.


There

is not a problem with vs. threads. Thank you i agree



Read my initial post. I said I was sick of having to sort through vs. threads to find anything good. I was never clicking on them in the first place, their mere presence is the problem here.

And i could same the same thing for any other type of thread, character threads, game threads, most X threads, favorite threads, best charater death threads ect. I don't try and get rid of your threads, i believe anyone should read what they like, and personally, i really don't think having to scroll past five vs. threads before reading what you like will kill you or cause nasty injury.



As long as we're on the subject, I don't like those threads either. Thankfully, Paladin threads aren't as common and I don't go on the OotS boards at all.
Somebody is a pikey eater eh? Well that is fine, i like those threads, but each to his own. I don't try to get ride of the threads you like. And if you dislike the OOTS board, you avoid it. Dislike Vs. threads, skip them and go to what you want to read. Problem solved
from,
EE

[Rutee]

Which literature is this one from: My gran's poodle Vs a dragon Vs philosophy Vs the grocery store


I was just wondering, because they sound really intersting and I might be tempted to read/watch them.

I'm vaguely surprised that the fact that that thread was satire on vs. threads in general was lost on you, given how obvious it was.

Anyway, the closest I saw to a legitimate concern was "It pushes real conversation off the front page!"

Well, I hate to be the bearer of obvious news, but if you're that concerned.. check page 2. See, it's a forum, and it stores threads, and you can in fact, check the second page. It's not an administrator only function. I don't think anyone'll call it necroposting if it's still a current thread.

[dehro]

I'm vaguely surprised that the fact that that thread was satire on vs. threads in general was lost on you, given how obvious it was..
wait..wasn't his reaction a joke too?:smallconfused:

....necroposting?...uhm now, that really sounds like RPG argon applied to computer science.

[Mordan]

I'm glad somebody took the bait on that. Of course I read it first and saw that it was a joke. Now let me point out 2 things. First, it's still open. Second, this isn't a joke forum, it's a media forum.

I'm still puzzled by the fact that someone is saying that those threads have reached a popularity level that would be grounds for them to have their own place, and people are offended by it! "Hey man, nice car." "How dare you say anything about my car? You don't have to look at my car. As a matter of fact, you don't even have to drive!" Wanna explain this to me in a little bit more detail?

Yes, I have read some of those threads. No, I have not read all of them. I still hold to my claim that most of the posts on those threads are not a discussion at all, but that is my own opinion. Perhaps I was wrong in mentioning my opinion in this arena, perhaps not, but what's done is done. What is not opinion is that those threads have become very prolific and not take up a considerable portion of the space in the boards. And now for my opinion on that, since the particular subcommunity here on the playground has developed and evolved in to a considerable amount, perhaps it is time to give their own toys to play with. Let's add another see-saw for them to play on. No one is saying they can't use the swings or the monkey bars also, but let's give them their own see-saw so they aren't all trying to fit on the one that we have.

[Rutee]

Quite frankly though, they're /not/ that big. There's perhaps 6 to 8 posts in a given day on those threads, collectively. That doesn't really scream to me "Give us our own forum!"

Now you could convincingly argue that given its own forum, it would explode, since people would feel some active encouragement to post those niggling thoughts, but it kinda seems like it'd only be massive for a week or two until the novelty wears off, if that.

As it stands though, they're really not that big! So I'm confused by the claims of "It really is large enough to warrant it"

Idly, those threads were in fact locked before you began writing their post, because they were closed before I began writing /my/ post. If you've got a problem with the satire (And I genuinely couldn't care less), take it up with the thread maker, not me. It honestly seemed to me to be the creation of someone agreeing with the "get 'em outta here" lot, even though I suspect said thread maker really doesn't feel that way.

[Moff Chumley]

Five posts from a versus thread:


Dementors are a good counterpoint to Nazgul, good call.

Wiz/Paladin is a joke, team. It's the common build suggested for Gandalf detractors.

Weapons that *physically* strike a Nazgul are broken. Gandalf 'attacked' the Nazgul with shiny light, and that worked. Just imagine what would happen if someone shot a *proper* curse at them. There's no reason a wand would break in battle. Let that item go, seriously.

If Voldemort finds his powers are *that* drained by all of the Nazguls attacking him, then he leaves. Apparition is a HUGE advantage - instant retreat saves all sorts of hopeless battles from being routs. (But I don't see that whole hopeless battle thing happening... how are orcs against flying units, again?) There are only a handful of units who could pose a threat to a wizard, and wizards can all pose a huge threat independently. Sauron unquestionably has numerical superiority, but only his few, Epic commanders can pose any sort of problem.

Turning the already-dodgy Death Eaters' ambition against them is a thought, but ultimately even one wizard is a match for anything short of the Epic team. Voldemort would take them all on alone, if it came to that, and acquit himself brilliantly.

Lets see: well thought out, long, discussion-like, I say pretty good.


I Think Harry would Win.

Not discussion material, but definatly not spam.


Well....the eye of sauron vs Voldemort, then in spite of the wand superdropping voldemort's badass factor, he would win.

Normal Sauron, the voldemort, just frickin forget about it. I dont care how many black holes of badassness youve killed, you cant win against a badass. You lost against a badass (vader), and you'll lose to another badass!!

Also not spam. Not serious, mildly dicusiionlike, but not spam.


It's a freaking giant made of shadow and flame. What do you think would happen if you put a regular metal blade into it? The Balrog slayers had heritage. Those with heritage usually have elven blades. As for the other points, I concede, but still say that he probably used it to help channel magic.

(For the record, this is a response to another post. :smallsmile: ) Not friendly, but not dur my gi iz t3h winxorz dur n0 itz n0t my guy iz. Not spam.


Skeptical. Dementors have detrimental effects, but not on a Nazgul level; they cause depression and some fear, not bone-chilling terror. They're more numerous, but that's their only advantage, and in a single mass battle it's not much of one. In every other respect the Nazgul win.



Possible, but I'd also doubt the effectiveness of Dark curses against the Nazgul. They're not really alive, after all. Good magic would actually work better against them. And we don't really know what would happen if a ranged weapon or magical blast struck them; the book Nazgul were never hit by arrows that I can recall, and in the books Gandalf summoned a light that drove them off, not a light that shot out and hit one of them.



Granted on the apparition; that's one solid advantage, albeit one that won't save you if you're already dead or too bewitched to think of it. But flying...? Flying renders you a target for Sauron's massed army of orcs and their arrows. It would be one of the worst things the wizards could do in a pitched battle. The Nazgul would also wreak havoc on flying forces with flying mounts.

(Again, a series of responses.) No, still discussion-like, and not spam.

Well, there you have it. And I'm off to tell more n00bs how much Thrawn kicks anyone elses @ss.

Edit: Yay! I didn't get ninja'd by a mod again!

[EvilElitest]

I'm still puzzled by the fact that someone is saying that those threads have reached a popularity level that would be grounds for them to have their own place, and people are offended by it!
Because the OP is saying he wants ride of them. That means off the media forum into their own Forum, which seems far more trouble than it is worth. If their are literally thousands of Vs. threads open at one time then i might understand what your saying, but as it is, the OP is just complaining because he has to scroll past a thread he is not interested in (which i do all the time by the by) to get to the stuff he wants to read. Seem just annoying to me


And thank you Moff, but none of my many Quotes? I'm hurt :smallfrown:
from,
EE

[Om]

Because the OP is saying he wants ride of them. That means off the media forum into their own Forum, which seems far more trouble than it is worth. If their are literally thousands of Vs. threads open at one time then i might understand what your saying, but as it is, the OP is just complaining because he has to scroll past a thread he is not interested in (which i do all the time by the by) to get to the stuff he wants to read. Seem just annoying to meThere are currently 18 Versus Threads on the MD front page. That is 36% of the total space on the visible MD. It is not a matter of scrolling past a thread but of having to scroll past 36% of the MD threads.

I am not aware of any similar levels reached by "niche/genre" threads on any other forum and at any other point in time. Excepting of course the SMBG subforum. Moreover, this trend is clearly not dying down, as was suggested when I raised by own concerns in another thread some time ago, but is holding steady. Indeed this week has seen a continued increase in the number of such threads.

[Winterwind]

There are currently 18 Versus Threads on the MD front page. That is 36% of the total space on the visible MD. It is not a matter of scrolling past a thread but of having to scroll past 36% of the MD threads.

I am not aware of any similar levels reached by "niche/genre" threads on any other forum and at any other point in time. Excepting of course the SMBG subforum. Moreover, this trend is clearly not dying down, as was suggested when I raised by own concerns in another thread some time ago, but is holding steady. Indeed this week has seen a continued increase in the number of such threads.Two things.

One: That's the third thread against Vs. Threads in which I see you posting. In every one of them I posted a response which amounts to this:

The actual reason behind Versus threads is not to definitely determine who would win in a battle. Rather, they serve as an exchange of information concerning the universes in question, and an exchange of different perceptions from various people regarding these universes. It doesn't matter who would win in a fight between Protoss and the Star Trek Federation; what matters is why people arrive at the conclusion that either one would win. Over the many Versus threads I have learned a lot of interesting details about universes I did not know before, and I got interested in various universes I hardly knew anything about before.

And, yes, quite often the question is actually unresolvable, unless there is a source explicitly stating the capabilities of the various universes, in which case a conclusive argument is quite possible and has been achieved on various threads. But again, the resolution of the conflict is not as interesting as the ways how people perceive the conflict would go.

Altogether, I don't see people on the Vs. Threads stating "Mine's better!" - "No, mine's better! Dumbass!". Not at all. What I keep seeing each and every time is people bringing arguments forward, complete with citations, what which character in question accomplished where and how, and what they believe follows from this. Hence, like I said, information exchange. The purpose of these threads.
I would really appreciate if you would, just once, respond to this. I see you being really dismissive of these threads all the time, and all for reasons which are, in my humble opinion, completely misjudging the actual purpose of these threads.

As for how large the prevalence of Vs. Threads in the Media Discussions forum has become - how about the number of threads concerned with D&D in the Gaming(d20 and General RPG) forum? That's just a subgenre, too, and it occupies way more than 30%. I think 80%-90% might be a good estimate.
I don't play D&D, yet I am interested in discussions regarding RPGs in general. Do you think these D&D threads annoy me? No - I just seek out the threads which interest me. I really fail to see how going over the list to find the interesting threads is an annoyance, even more so how it can be one to a degree that people begin to shun the entire subforum.

[Mordan]

D&D threads in a the D20 forums is a problem? Perhaps you don't understand what D20 is. It's basically the shorthand for D&D 3rd Edition. I'm not sure where it should go if not in the forum specifically designed for it. That's like saying people are posting about Ford in the Car forum.

As to the person who did all the research to cut and post the better examples in the Vs threads, I appreciate the effort that went in to the research and the time that it took, but I could just as easily go now and cut and paste childish responses to prove my own point. And honestly it wouldn't make any difference either way. I at no point claimed that all of the discussions were childish but enough of them. Even the joke thread that someone posted attracted people who took it seriously enough to make posts and discussions prior to it being closed, and some of those arguments were very well thought out.

Whatever the OPs original point was, even he (she?) has said, "okay, I was wrong, let's not completely ban them, but give them a unique place". I know it's not an exact quote, but it is a generalization of things he has said since. There is no reason a subgrouping of boards cannot be created under the Media heading (such as the Town is in SMBG) for Vs threads.

I understand the purpose of the threads isn't to assign HP and damage values and perform some kind of mock combat to determine a winner. They are a means to associate one set of characters to another. I'm all for that. But it's being done with such enthusiasm that it's overshadowing the rest of the threads. I am neither denying their popularity nor the enthusiasm of the people involved (even the ones that are less then serious about it).

I guess I am still failing to see why someone would get upset at the suggestion that something they enjoy doing has grown to such popularity that it warrants having it's own place on the forums. My suggestion has been the same all along, give them their own place within the Media forums, since they have grown to such proportions that they are taking over, or, if that suggestion seems to make people feel that they are being picked on, set up a new place for non-vs threads.

[dehro]

this thread is rapidly becoming a Vs thread on it's own right

[CrazedGoblin]

this thread is rapidly becoming a Vs thread on it's own right

hehe aye :smallsmile:

[Winterwind]

D&D threads in a the D20 forums is a problem?No, it's not. That was my entire point.

Perhaps you don't understand what D20 is. It's basically the shorthand for D&D 3rd Edition. I'm not sure where it should go if not in the forum specifically designed for it. That's like saying people are posting about Ford in the Car forum.Exactly.

What I was merely trying to say is, that
a) I fail to see how a subgenre of a forum dominating that forum is a problem - it's not like it forces the people to read threads they are not interested in, and in other cases it is expected from people to ignore an entire subgenre dominating a forum, and
b) Where to draw the line? Since D&D dominates the d20 And General RPG forum (where the latter part of the name implies that's not all that forum is about), should one make an extra forum for D&D only, and all other RPGs extra? How about all those "*Group* in the Playground" threads which became so popular in the Friendly Banter forum recently, should they get their own forum, too?
See where this leads to? Ultimately, I find that splitting the subforums more than necessary merely fragments the forum and makes navigation more cumbersome.

[Om]

The actual reason behind Versus threads is not to definitely determine who would win in a battle. Rather, they serve as an exchange of information concerning the universes in question, and an exchange of different perceptions from various people regarding these universes. It doesn't matter who would win in a fight between Protoss and the Star Trek Federation; what matters is why people arrive at the conclusion that either one would win. Over the many Versus threads I have learned a lot of interesting details about universes I did not know before, and I got interested in various universes I hardly knew anything about before.That may be the purpose with which you read these threads but that is not their raison d'être. Almost every, to my knowledge, Versus Thread is prefaced with the question, "Who would win?". That is their stated purpose and the vast majority of posts within them reflects that.

Now I have no problem with someone starting a Star Trek thread and begins to ask questions about warp speed, Klingons, etc... that is a perfectly reasonable and constructive thread. A comparison, constructed within the framework of a duel, to the Protoss/Galactic Empire/Ankh-Morpork City Watch is not necessary for this.

Of course, I'm sure that anyone who follows the threads would have learnt a great deal about Dumbledore, Sauron, and Thrawn at this stage :smallwink:


But again, the resolution of the conflict is not as interesting as the ways how people perceive the conflict would go.And I can fully appreciate that. It does not however excuse the sheer number of these threads, many of them extremely silly (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62690), which are simply intellectual exercises. The conversion in many of these threads would not be out of place in the SMBG.


As for how large the prevalence of Vs. Threads in the Media Discussions forum has become - how about the number of threads concerned with D&D in the Gaming(d20 and General RPG) forum? That's just a subgenre, too, and it occupies way more than 30%. I think 80%-90% might be a good estimate.The comparison is flawed. At no point in time will you find that 30% of the Gaming forum, which is specifically devoted to DnD, comprised entirely of "CoDzilla"* threads or similar. So within the DnD forum there is no overwhelming infestation of a particular type of thread.

To contrast, there is nothing that states that the Media Discussion forum is intended for Versus threads, which is what Mordan is getting at, yet these have come to dominate. It is a forum for the discussion of various types of media, of which Versus threads are only one subset.

*No, I have no idea what that is


I don't play D&D, yet I am interested in discussions regarding RPGs in general. Do you think these D&D threads annoy me? No - I just seek out the threads which interest me.I don't play DnD and so I don't visit the DnD specific forum at all. As yet however the MD is not the Hypothetical Battle Discussion forum... despite inching ever closer to this.

[Sucrose]

The comparison is flawed. At no point in time will you find that 30% of the Gaming forum, which is specifically devoted to DnD, comprised entirely of "CoDzilla"* threads or similar. So within the DnD forum there is no overwhelming infestation of a particular type of thread.

I'd argue that there is, in fact, such an infestation: class balance threads, and people kvetching about class balance threads, take up quite a lot of space.

Anyway, while the threads may indeed ask "who would win," that is simply an invitation to state who, and justify your answer. That justification is what makes versus threads so very interesting. People who just give their opinion are seldom the ones who convince the rest of the forumites.

From these discussions, one learns more about the respective universes, and in a rather amusing fashion. This is why they are not simply SMBGs.

(Incidentally, I actually have no problem with getting a subforum for the versus threads, but that's because my computer is awesome and can get from one page to another with lightning speed, making loading a nonissue.)

[Moff Chumley]

...As to the person who did all the research to cut and post the better examples in the Vs threads, I appreciate the effort that went in to the research and the time that it took, but I could just as easily go now and cut and paste childish responses to prove my own point...

Research? Proving a point? Hell, all I did was flip to page five of the Voldy vs. Sauron thread and take the first five posts from that. No research or picking-and-choosing involved. After analyzing the five posts, only one comes even close to spam, and at least three were well thought out discussions.

[Gungnir]

I seem to remember this same situation rearing its ugly head in the "Other Games" forum. It mostly consisted of Link vs X, where X is completely inferior to Link, from Evil Elitist's standpoint. I think the Link vs Sephiroth thread, the original thread, made it well past the 100 page mark, much to EE's delight, the giant troll he is. He still has "Last word in Link vs Seph" in his sig, for goodness sake.

Eventually, someone made a thread meant to consolidate all the other vs threads into one ugly mass. He also offered to mediate the proposed fights from a neutral standpoint, he'd use Wikipedia to learn about proposed contestants, then decide the most likely victor. His thread eventually became law; Any new vs threads that people tried to start got locked.

Personally, I like vs threads; it's fun to defend personal favorite characters and to root for the underdog using loopholes in space/time. It only gets annoying when people start taking it seriously or use blatantly fractured logic, or God forbid, both at the same time. (You know who you are)

[Castaras]

The conversion in many of these threads would not be out of place in the SMBG.


They would be out of place.

They are not games. They are discussion.

SMBG is not the place for all the threads you don't like.

And people were talking about the poodlevdragonvphilosophyvwhatever thread. Yes, I created it to laugh at the other threads. Which I do a lot. Some of the heated arguments in these discussion threads do get pretty darn hilarious. No, I'm not saying there are too many of them. They can be interesting to read. I'll draw people's attention to the "Granny v ?" thread. Sure, it's another versus thread. But it's able to have people suggest hundreds of characters that might be able to beat Granny.

Versus threads aren't all bad. Just skim over them, move on. They can have some very interesting conversation, and often intelligent arguments.

Media Discussion is the best place for them. It is discussion, it is media. Surely that's what this forum is for? SMBG is for games - Stabbing people, healing/hurting people, counting from 1,000,000 to 0, saying stuff about TPBM and TPAM. Not for the discussion about media characters. To be honest, I'm not completely sure why the ...itp contests are still in SMBG. They seem a little more Friendly Banter than SMBG to me.

[Mordan]

Well, this entire conversation has just taken a turn for the worse....

When someone's defense is to cut and paste something, out of context of the entire statement, and use it as justification, it generally is a bad sign.

So with that, I'm going to extracate myself from the media forum entirely, as another has commented they have done.

ps I'm still trying to figure out why the d20 example was supposed to work, so if anyone cares to explain it, please shoot me a PM.

[VeisuItaTyhjyys]

I don't know who's fighting threads, since you left that out in the title and first post, but I gotta give it to them. I don't think Thread has a chance.

[lipe44]

I don't know who's fighting threads, since you left that out in the title and first post, but I gotta give it to them. I don't think Thread has a chance.

That made me laugh loud... :smallsmile:


There is several VS threads but as only a few are still alive then you shouldnt worry. Wait a week if then most of 1st page threads are Vs then we can say something about it...

[Nebo_]

So with that, I'm going to extracate myself from the media forum entirely, as another has commented they have done.


That seems like a good idea to me, too. It's a shame really, the Media Discussion board used to be really good.

[Rutee]

I'd voice surprise that people have elected to take their ball and go home over not reading threads that they find uninteresting, which is something I do every sunday when I elect not to read BC and Opus in the comics section, but I would be lying horribly; It's the internet, and people will leave for the strangest things. Hope you have fun anyway.

[Winterwind]

That may be the purpose with which you read these threads but that is not their raison d'être. Almost every, to my knowledge, Versus Thread is prefaced with the question, "Who would win?". That is their stated purpose and the vast majority of posts within them reflects that.Maybe you're right about that. Or maybe the question just serves as means to create a backdrop for discussing the respective worlds' details. I don't know about the motivations of the posters; maybe you're right with your assessment.
Still, there are people for whom these threads serve the very purpose I described - and as long as they serve a purpose to some, I would argue, they are valid discussions of these universes, and hence well fitting for the Media forum.


Now I have no problem with someone starting a Star Trek thread and begins to ask questions about warp speed, Klingons, etc... that is a perfectly reasonable and constructive thread. A comparison, constructed within the framework of a duel, to the Protoss/Galactic Empire/Ankh-Morpork City Watch is not necessary for this.I would argue that these are just means to a goal - a conflict situation provides good conditions for discussion.
If you asked, "What can LotR magic do?" you might get a couple of confused answers asking you to be more specific, a few examples, and that's it. By comparing it to another universe, on the other hand, you provide a comparison, spark a contest in which many more want to participate, and create specific situations where this magic can be applied, thus making it easier to discuss. (Of course, that's a rather poor example, since LotR magic tends to be implied instead of described in the books, but I hope it's clear what I mean)


Of course, I'm sure that anyone who follows the threads would have learnt a great deal about Dumbledore, Sauron, and Thrawn at this stage :smallwink: Indeed. :smallbiggrin:


And I can fully appreciate that. It does not however excuse the sheer number of these threads, many of them extremely silly (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=62690), which are simply intellectual exercises. The conversion in many of these threads would not be out of place in the SMBG.Here, I agree. I guess the presence of the Vs. threads which do indeed belong into the Media Discussions forum tends to draw other Vs. threads into it which have little reason to be there.
...guess that is indeed a good argument in favour of making a Vs. thread subsection. The only trouble I see with that is, as I wrote in my last post, that just like threads of a specific kind clustering in any subforum, too much fragmentation into subforums will make navigation in the forum just as cumbersome, possibly even more so.


The comparison is flawed. At no point in time will you find that 30% of the Gaming forum, which is specifically devoted to DnD, comprised entirely of "CoDzilla"* threads or similar. So within the DnD forum there is no overwhelming infestation of a particular type of thread.

To contrast, there is nothing that states that the Media Discussion forum is intended for Versus threads, which is what Mordan is getting at, yet these have come to dominate. It is a forum for the discussion of various types of media, of which Versus threads are only one subset.Yes, but then, D&D is also only a subset of the d20 and General RPG subforum as well (albeit a major one, so major in fact that it is part of the name of that subforum). It is vastly dominating that forum, and yet, noone argues in favour of splitting off the General RPG part into a subforum of its own. And it would be completely unnecessary indeed. Just because one subset of a larger theme is becoming more popular than others is not, I would argue, a justification for singling out this subset and splitting it off.


I don't play DnD and so I don't visit the DnD specific forum at all. As yet however the MD is not the Hypothetical Battle Discussion forum... despite inching ever closer to this.Maybe, but as long as the other, non Vs-related threads are still in the Media Discussions forum, where is the problem with that? I mean - in any forum there are bound to be many threads which don't interest you, no matter whether they are diverse or all belong to some single group. You will always have to go over the list and click only on the threads which do interest you. So why is the prevailance of the Vs. threads such a problem? Even if there are only 2 out of 20 threads which do interest you, it's not like it will take you more than 5 seconds to find them on the first page.

Still, even though I disagree with you, thank you for your answer. I think I understand your stance somewhat better now. :smallsmile:


Transcript from PM to Mordan:

Well, this entire conversation has just taken a turn for the worse....

When someone's defense is to cut and paste something, out of context of the entire statement, and use it as justification, it generally is a bad sign.I can't figure out at whom that was directed. If it was me, I apologise, such was not my intent; if you point me at the place where I supposedly did that, I will gladly elaborate and explain what my reasoning was.


So with that, I'm going to extracate myself from the media forum entirely, as another has commented they have done.That's up to you, of course, but I would really be interested in the logic behind it, because I don't understand it at all. So there are some threads which don't interest you (like in every forum), which happen to share a common theme (which doesn't matter to you since you're not interested in them in the first place), yet they somehow prevent you from reading the threads you are interested in? Note - increasing numbers of Vs. threads do not mean a decrease in the number of other Media Discussion threads.


ps I'm still trying to figure out why the d20 example was supposed to work, so if anyone cares to explain it, please shoot me a PM.As the name "d20 and General RPG" indicates, D&D is but a subset of this forum, albeit a major one, just like Vs. threads are a subset of the Media discussions forum. D&D dominates its forum even much more than Vs. threads dominate the Media discussions forum; yet noone suggested to split off General RPG from D&D for that reason, nor do I think that would make much sense. This means, however, that a subset dominating the entire forum is not enough reason for a split; demanding otherwise is applying a double standard.

[EvilElitest]

I seem to remember this same situation rearing its ugly head in the "Other Games" forum.

And it was pretty fun. In Link vs. Seph i learned more about FF7 then i ever remembered from playing the game

It mostly consisted of Link vs X, where X is completely inferior to Link,
There were others ones as well. Oh and Link lost to Kefka.


from Evil Elitist's standpoint.
Which i backed up, as i do now on the Voldemort vs. Sauron thread, i back up my points, i use logic, reason, and military knowledge. If you have a problem with my methods, call a mod or produce a good counter. If you don't like Vs. threads, fine that is cool, you don't have to go on them (though you certainly did so on the Link vs. Seph)



I think the Link vs Sephiroth thread, the original thread, made it well past the 100 page mark,
53


much to EE's delight,
Not really at all, i was the one who first asked the thread to be closed for being to long.

the giant troll he is.
How mature. I'd tempted to call this a flame. I mean, you take a thread on Vs. thread, and spend an entire post calling me a troll. I hope you feel happy inside, because this strikes me as extremely childish.

He still has "Last word in Link vs Seph" in his sig, for goodness sake.
I'm proud of getting the last word of a 53 long thread. is their a problem. And why are you turning this thread into a personal attack? isn't a forum rule against this?


Eventually, someone made a thread meant to consolidate all the other vs threads into one ugly mass. He also offered to mediate the proposed fights from a neutral standpoint, he'd use Wikipedia to learn about proposed contestants, then decide the most likely victor. His thread eventually became law; Any new vs threads that people tried to start got locked.
Different context, that was not a discussion thread, just a battle thread. Each fight was decided of that threads OP based on his logic (which was quite good i admit) but didn't involve any discussion.


Personally, I like vs threads; it's fun to defend personal favorite characters and to root for the underdog using loopholes in space/time.
Then why are you arguing against it?


It only gets annoying when people start taking it seriously or use blatantly fractured logic, or God forbid, both at the same time.
Or turn discussion into personal attacks


(You know who you are)

I'm glad you've come to terms this

The comparison is flawed. At no point in time will you find that 30% of the Gaming forum, which is specifically devoted to DnD, comprised entirely of "CoDzilla"* threads or similar. So within the DnD forum there is no overwhelming infestation of a particular type of thread.
The gaming thread is not dedicated to just DnD, all role playing games are allowed on that thread, DnD is just the most pouplar
from,
EE

[Gungnir]

*sigh* Lessee here... I don't feel like dividing this into 14 hojillion quote boxes, so I'll just go in order.

1. Mild attempt at humor.

2. I said "Mostly"

3. I'm just saying, you were kinda a one trick pony when it came to the Link vs threads.

4. God forbid I use hyperbole.

5. a) I recall that you chose not to acknowledge plenty of good points against your side in a few of those threads. I haven't really looked around the ones around here because the subjects aren't my favorites, so I can't say anything of your practices now.
b) I never said I didn't like VS threads.

6. Sorry. Uncalled for.

7. From my standpoint, you seemed to enjoy stirring up conflict to a certain degree. That's my definition of a troll.

8. Just trying to site evidence of trollhood. Sorry if I came off too aggressive.

9. There was PLENTY of discussion in that thread. There wasn't anywhere else to do it, because the other threads got locked, and the poor guy who was unofficially in charge of it didn't have time to every single bout, and the ones he did occasionally overlooked certain facts.

10. I wasn't arguing against it. The only time I said anything of negative connotation was two instances of the word "ugly".

11. My apologies, once again. I assure you I never aim to actually hurt anyone's feelings.

12. [citation needed]

[EvilElitest]

11. My apologies, once again. I assure you I never aim to actually hurt anyone's feelings.


Don't have time to respond to the rest but

Calling me a giant troll is more than just offensive, it is inmature, silly, wasteful, and childish. Lauching a personal attack against me on a thread that isn't even about me is more so. Just rude man, not cool
from,
EE

[Nebo_]

Reviving a thread just to call someone silly, iMmature, childish, wasteful and offensive is, in fact, all of those things and a very good indicator that you are a troll.

[EvilElitest]

Reviving a thread just to call someone silly, iMmature, childish, wasteful and offensive is, in fact, all of those things and a very good indicator that you are a troll.

1. Reliving? It was on hte first page, only a few down, i really doubt it is necro threading at this point
2. more so then derailing one?
3. I've been on this thread for a while, so i haven't acually done anything out of order, though maybe i just should just call in a flame
4. A troll. Please, you going to have to try harder than that
5. Do i sense double standard here?
6. For you infomation i was sick and unable to respond earlier
7. I don't know about you, but i for one find immature insults at my expense worthy of responding to
Anways back on topic, the time is 2:13 east coast time, and on the media thread, in the first seven threads, two of which are vs., Voldemort vs. Sauron, and hte Sci-Fi Debate,
The battle royal, granny vs., and Voldemort/Bellatrix vs. Greebo are the only ones also on the first page? So it really isn't an infestation
from,
EE