unseenmage
2021-01-14, 09:30 AM
Okay so,
I've been on a spells kick lately.
What evidence in RAW do we have for nonmetamagic class abilities (or other game effects) that modify spells to have their abilities persist and also still take effect when put into a magic item?
Say you have a class ability that mimics a metamagic effect, you make a scroll, would the spell cast from that scroll have that same effect?
why/why not?
Living spells are all ad hoc adjudication anyway but finding precedent in items would help justify more interesting living spells too.
Energy transformation field and other spells that store and recast spells are another place this could be important
Contingency would probably be the most relevant to actual games and common TO.
From my irl group's chat,
The short answer is that they're not retained, as there's not an easy and predetermined way to modify the item's pricing.
Only place it really touches upon such things is in the magic item creation rules in the core rulebook.
"Prices presented in the magic item descriptions (the gold piece value following the item's slot) are the market value, which is generally twice what it costs the creator to make the item.
Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of the lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.
Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staves follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls."
and
"While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal."
Some things they called out as being set in stone, like item DCs.
"Saving Throws Against Magic Item Powers
Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.
So stuff like the Spell Focus feat normally have no effect on item powers, even if the creator possessed it.
Staves are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DCs.
Most item descriptions give saving throw DCs for various effects, particularly when the effect has no exact spell equivalent (making its level otherwise difficult to determine quickly
There are a few class abilities that let you treat wands and scrolls like staves (i.e. using your ability scores to set the DCs and caster level instead of the item's caster level), but they're rare as hell.
thanks icifur
I've been on a spells kick lately.
What evidence in RAW do we have for nonmetamagic class abilities (or other game effects) that modify spells to have their abilities persist and also still take effect when put into a magic item?
Say you have a class ability that mimics a metamagic effect, you make a scroll, would the spell cast from that scroll have that same effect?
why/why not?
Living spells are all ad hoc adjudication anyway but finding precedent in items would help justify more interesting living spells too.
Energy transformation field and other spells that store and recast spells are another place this could be important
Contingency would probably be the most relevant to actual games and common TO.
From my irl group's chat,
The short answer is that they're not retained, as there's not an easy and predetermined way to modify the item's pricing.
Only place it really touches upon such things is in the magic item creation rules in the core rulebook.
"Prices presented in the magic item descriptions (the gold piece value following the item's slot) are the market value, which is generally twice what it costs the creator to make the item.
Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of the lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.
Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren't enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staves follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls."
and
"While item creation costs are handled in detail below, note that normally the two primary factors are the caster level of the creator and the level of the spell or spells put into the item. A creator can create an item at a lower caster level than her own, but never lower than the minimum level needed to cast the needed spell. Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal."
Some things they called out as being set in stone, like item DCs.
"Saving Throws Against Magic Item Powers
Magic items produce spells or spell-like effects. For a saving throw against a spell or spell-like effect from a magic item, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.
So stuff like the Spell Focus feat normally have no effect on item powers, even if the creator possessed it.
Staves are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if the wielder cast the spell, including caster level and all modifiers to save DCs.
Most item descriptions give saving throw DCs for various effects, particularly when the effect has no exact spell equivalent (making its level otherwise difficult to determine quickly
There are a few class abilities that let you treat wands and scrolls like staves (i.e. using your ability scores to set the DCs and caster level instead of the item's caster level), but they're rare as hell.
thanks icifur