3.5 bard ACF that trade away spellcasting

[ciopo]

Greetings playground dwellers

I'm workshopping a character for a oneshot, we are going to be level 6, the oneshot is set in the same campaign setting of our main character, and will be happening in the same general area in about around the same time, with some campaign events having happened.

In lieu of that, I wanted to play around with the campaign specific race ,Seela from War of the burning sky, and my "capstone" level will be Dirgesinger because it makes sense from a theme point of view..
I've already set my levels to be 2 of fighters (for feats to actually do the stuff I want to do), 2 of racial paragon and 1 of bard because otherwise I wouldn't have the ranks/features to qualify for dirgesinger.
The concept is more or less a archer dude that plink away at people with a bow while singing the song of sorrow.
The one shot will probably not last more than a couple of in campaign days, if that.

That said, with only the lone level of bard, I feel kind of "meh" about having cantrips and nothing more, so I've been looking for ways to trade away spellcasting for some other goodies of some sort.

Or, if there is some alternative to a bard level to qualify for dirgesinger :)

Thanks for the help

[gijoemike]

There is a Prestige Class from Complete Adventure that grants bardic music if you didn't already have it. It gives you spells/caster levels of an arcane class you already had prior to entering it ( not at 1st lvl 9/10 progression).

virtuoso - Perform 10 ranks, Intimidate 4 ranks/Diplomancy 4 ranks but here is the kicker
must be arcane caster lvl 1. Rogue base attack progression.


Having an SLA of a 1st lvl spell allows you to act as an acrance caster of lvl X. But that means you were not already an arcane caster prior to entering the class and it is wasted. But if you only take 1 level of Virtuoso then all is well. The perform ranks 10 is a limiting factor to say the least. It would make your 8th level Virtuoso, and your 9th the first of dirgesinger. But dirgesinger is much easier to get into earlier than that.

What are the 2 feats you took on the fighter levels? We may be able to class swap to something that has arcane cantrips.
Or maybe you can switch that worthless bard level for sorc. Cha based casting and better spell list. More spells and earlier access.

Sadly, I am not familiar with the character reference and I don't know how you would play this vision/version of them anyway.

[gijoemike]

A more direct reply to the title of the thread. It doesn't exist. All versions of bards cast spells. You need to not be bard at all or suck up the really really weak spells. What levels will this campaign start and end at?

[Zecrin]

There is a version of the bard class from the 3rd edition Dark Sun campaign setting book that trades the ability to cast spells for slightly better saves, skill bonuses, poison use, and other small perks.

[ciopo]

it will start and end at level 6, it's a oneshot, I am okay with not taking a bard level if there are alternatives

I'm going to check out that dark sun bard, thank you Zecrin

Virtuoso would be hard to fit in, given the ranks requirements and the level I'm starting and ending at, Gijoemike. I will welcome speculation on messing around with the other levels, provided the 6th level is dirgesinger because it fits with the backstory as of what happened to these people where we traipsed over yonder during the actual main campaign.

after racial and paragon levels ( which are mandatory or I wouldn't be able to leave the race starting location ), my stat outline will be 16 15 11 14 14 20, please note that I will racially use CHA instead of CON for HP and fort saves, and also one use of bardic song, plus other ribbons.

I'm not 100% fixed on dirgesinger, but I like it enough and it fits the theme, so 4rd level feat is requiem by virtue of prerequisites necessity

1st level feat is tentatively charm the arrow from the web article, fighter feats are point blank shot and precise shot

6th level feat is up in the air, I've considered rapid shot or that feat that increases composite bow str bonus applied whose name I don't remember right now, I haven't asked my gm what she thinks of allowing deadly aim yet. maybe knowledge devotion, but I'm somewhat tight on skill points given the perform+religion requirements of dirgesinger

I'm trying to keep it simple and relatively onedimensional for what is going to be a oneshot, since I've been playing a melle druid so far, I want to stay at range and curse at people

I'm "fixated" on an archer of some sort because of table injoke : my "main character" in this campaign is a half orc druid who pretended to be a simple hunter because of magic inquisition stuff, but I had nothing wahtsoever dedicated to being a good archer, other than buying a longbow and trying to use it, horrendously. Now doing someone actually effecting at using bows is for the lulz

relevant houserules : HP will be maximized for the first 5 levels, skill ranks are "no bonus point on first level, class skill get a +3 if you put at least 1 rank in them, max rank is charlevel"
thanks for the feedback

[Doctor Despair]

I'm not 100% fixed on dirgesinger, but I like it enough and it fits the theme, so 4rd level feat is requiem by virtue of prerequisites necessity

1st level feat is tentatively charm the arrow from the web article, fighter feats are point blank shot and precise shot

6th level feat is up in the air, I've considered rapid shot or that feat that increases composite bow str bonus applied whose name I don't remember right now, I haven't asked my gm what she thinks of allowing deadly aim yet. maybe knowledge devotion, but I'm somewhat tight on skill points given the perform+religion requirements of dirgesinger

I'm trying to keep it simple and relatively onedimensional for what is going to be a oneshot, since I've been playing a melle druid so far, I want to stay at range and curse at people

relevant houserules : HP will be maximized for the first 5 levels, skill ranks are "no bonus point on first level, class skill get a +3 if you put at least 1 rank in them, max rank is charlevel"
thanks for hte feedback

There's a lot of debate over how Versatile Spellcaster works. If you can get your DM to let you convert two spell slots from one class into a higher-level slot from a different class (rather than into the same class), you could get some thematic mileage out of Dread Necromancer. It's another charisma-based caster, so you could trade your spell slots from Bard up into level-1 spells from the Dread Necromancer list.

Dread Necromancer has a unique spells-known system where they automatically know all spells of any level they can cast. Versatile Spellcaster should let Dread Necromancers, with a one-level dip, use their granted first-level spell slots to learn (and then cast) their second-level spells. If you fit in a one-level dip, you could get access to Command Undead, then capture any undead you encounter like Pokemon and buff them with your bardic music and Requiem.

1. Bard (Versatile Spellcaster)
2. Dread Necromancer
3. Fighter (Point-Blank Shot, Precise Shot)
4. Racial Paragon
5. Racial Paragon (Requiem)
6. Dirgesinger (Charm the Arrow)

[Ramza00]

It is 3rd party Pathfinder but there is a dreamscarred press version of Bard which gives it Path of War Maneuvers (aka like ToB but Path of War Pathfinder)

Maxes out at 6th level maneuvers, 2nd at 4th level, 3rd at 7th, 4th at 9th, 5th at 11, 6th at 13th.

Lots of bard stuff was changed in pathfinder but just giving maneuvers would be easy to backport.

[noob]

There is a Prestige Class from Complete Adventure that grants bardic music if you didn't already have it. It gives you spells/caster levels of an arcane class you already had prior to entering it ( not at 1st lvl 9/10 progression).

virtuoso - Perform 10 ranks, Intimidate 4 ranks/Diplomancy 4 ranks but here is the kicker
must be arcane caster lvl 1. Rogue base attack progression.


Having an SLA of a 1st lvl spell allows you to act as an acrance caster of lvl X. But that means you were not already an arcane caster prior to entering the class and it is wasted. But if you only take 1 level of Virtuoso then all is well. The perform ranks 10 is a limiting factor to say the least. It would make your 8th level Virtuoso, and your 9th the first of dirgesinger. But dirgesinger is much easier to get into earlier than that.

What are the 2 feats you took on the fighter levels? We may be able to class swap to something that has arcane cantrips.
Or maybe you can switch that worthless bard level for sorc. Cha based casting and better spell list. More spells and earlier access.

Sadly, I am not familiar with the character reference and I don't know how you would play this vision/version of them anyway.

virtuoso needs you to have 10 skill ranks which can be reached before level 6 only through skill rank shenanigans.

[Troacctid]

While there are no bard ACFs that give up spellcasting, there are bard prestige classes that give up spellcasting, like seeker of the song, or give bardic music to non-bards, like warrior skald.

Unfortunately, they won't help you much for a level 6 one-shot. Sorry.

[ciopo]

thank you people for the feedback, may I flip the question
"I want to qualify for dirgesinger at level 6, but I don't want to take bards level, I want to be as martial as possible"
is that easier to attain? are there other classes that grants the bardic music class feature?

Notably, the racial paragon I am taking do grants "if you have the bardic music class feature, you get one more use", but my GM already vetoed using that to qualify for dirgesinger

[Troacctid]

thank you people for the feedback, may I flip the question
"I want to qualify for dirgesinger at level 6, but I don't want to take bards level, I want to be as martial as possible"
is that easier to attain? are there other classes that grants the bardic music class feature?

Notably, the racial paragon I am taking do grants "if you have the bardic music class feature, you get one more use", but my GM already vetoed using that to qualify for dirgesinger
You could try asking about Harmonious Knight paladin substitution levels, see if those will work. Or maybe find a set of Augustinius's folly (Dragon #324). But since they only grant inspire courage and don't provide any general daily uses of bardic music, I wouldn't get my hopes up. All the classes that grant bardic music for reals are prestige classes. You're most likely going to have to suck it up and take a level of bard. Sorry.

[Thurbane]

I've also wished there was a Bard ACF that swaps out spellcasting for something else. I mean, there are two separate non-casting ACFs for Paladins and Rangers, why not Bard?

I might home-brew one, but since Bard casting is significantly more than Paladin or Ranger, would have to be something a lot more worthwhile than bonus feats (which are already considered pretty subpar as far as ACFs go).

Maybe Auras like a Dragon Shaman, or Sneak Attack like a Rogue? Even those feels a bit lacklustre, through.

[ciopo]

I don't consider taking bard levels to suck it up ^^, the initial conception was racial paragon2/bard4 or bard3/prc1, it's just that it evolved ala "Okay, what do I want to do in combat? I don't feel like facetanking stuff again, let's go with archer. I'm never going to live it down if I make someone that tries to be an archer but sucks at being an archer again, so what do I need there : the profiency, and at least precise shot"

[Doctor Despair]

I've also wished there was a Bard ACF that swaps out spellcasting for something else. I mean, there are two separate non-casting ACFs for Paladins and Rangers, why not Bard?

I might home-brew one, but since Bard casting is significantly more than Paladin or Ranger, would have to be something a lot more worthwhile than bonus feats (which are already considered pretty subpar as far as ACFs go).

Maybe Auras like a Dragon Shaman, or Sneak Attack like a Rogue? Even those feels a bit lacklustre, through.

Maybe lean into bardic music progression? The abilities aren't fantastic as it is. Honestly, making Seeker of the Song a base class instead of a prestige class would accomplish that pretty well. Remove bardic spellcasting, and add the class features of Seeker of the Song when your bard level is equal to twice the required Seeker of the Song levels for a Seeker to gain them? So Burning Melody at 2, Song of Unmaking and Combine Songs at 4, etc.

[Gorthawar]

I don't consider taking bard levels to suck it up ^^, the initial conception was racial paragon2/bard4 or bard3/prc1, it's just that it evolved ala "Okay, what do I want to do in combat? I don't feel like facetanking stuff again, let's go with archer. I'm never going to live it down if I make someone that tries to be an archer but sucks at being an archer again, so what do I need there : the profiency, and at least precise shot"

I think dirgesinger is not the best choice when going down the archery route for a bard. You lose a another point of BaB, a feat to qualify and want to use your bardic music to debuff instead of improving your ranged attacks.

I don't know what the racial paragon class does exactly but your build RP2/F2/B1/DS1 ends up with something like 1 attack at +8 or +9 doing 1d8+3 damage only or 2 attacks at +6/+7 with the same damage. That's not very impressive is it?

I'd stick to normal bard levels instead and use normal bardic music to add bonus to hit and damage to the whole team or just go Dragonfire inspiration if your race allows it somehow.

Edit: also requiem requires performance 8 so unless the racial paragon class gives a bonus feat you might not be able to qualify for dirge singer at level 6

[ciopo]

I'm aware, I'm looking at about what you said indeed, 10+ to hit ( 3 bab 5 stat 1 point blank +1 bow ) for 1d8+5 ( 3 composite 1 point blank +1 bow), plus whatever my last feat ends up being, I'm leaning toward either rapid shot or knowledge devotion.

I want to be low key in damage, to contrast with the claw/claw/bite half orc druid I've been playing, dirgesinger fits the backstory mostly, and the debuff it applies is an adeguate influence on encounters without being blatant about it, I suppose?

I know of reqiuem prereq, I qualify just in time already cleared that with the GM ( we use PF feat progression, so I'm actually taking that at level 5 )

I did consider a straight RP2/bard4, I suppose I like a -2 to all enemies more than a +1 to all allies? this is partially an informed decision because another player mentioned they might do a bard too, so there would be morale bonus overlapping ( yes, we did say "let's make a band! 5 bards!" )

[bean illus]

it will start and end at level 6, ...

... I'm "fixated" on an archer of some sort ...

... . Now doing someone actually effecti(ve) at using bows ...




...

"Okay, what do I want to do in combat?

... archer. I'm never going to live it down if I make someone that tries to be an archer but sucks at being an archer again, so what do I need there (?) : the profiency, and at least precise shot"

You need BAB +6. That's what you need for an effective archer at e6.


E5 is a bit different, as is e7 and above, but an e6 1 shot archer needs BAB 6, or at least spells.

Archers need to hit, pretty much always, and often, or they aren't effective. Rapid shot is nice, but -2 on two +3 BAB arrows isn't gonna cut it. Multishot has a huge -4 penalty, and won't fix rapid shot.
Improved rapid shot fixes it, but needs 2 feats at +6 BAB.

This fighter


Human,Travel Devotion

F 1 WF, PBS
F 2 PS
F 3 RS

F 4 WSp
F 5
F 6 MS, IRS

... hits anything it points at, 3 times per round. Here, let's see ...
+6 bab, +3 Dex, +2 Dex item, +1 WF, +1 PBS, +2 weapon

+15 / +15 / +10 ... not bad. ... not even max.
Get some special arrows, you're nearing 40 damage per round. You also can take a hit, with armor and d10 hp. When you are cornered, you have turbo, to escape but whilst maintaining 3 shots per round.

Other than something similar to this build, I caution against expecting too much from an E6 Archer. There's a bit of room for interpretation, or creativity, but without bab 6 you're going to have trouble exceeding 30 damage with consistency.

Edit:
The double bard thing will be fun, but archery ...

[ciopo]

fair enough, the effective was more along the lines of "previous character (druid that didn't want to be outed as a druid) was pretending to be an hunter, so occasionally shotting an arrow in melee for a compounded -8 malus between lacking the profiency and shooting in an engagement".

I see your point, I'll think on it some more, a dedicated archer may well be adeguate whiplash :D

I'm fairly sure both a +2 bow and a +4 stat item wouldn't fit the budget, +1 bow and +2 stat item are likely. I haven't tinkered on the equip yet

[Gorthawar]

...
I want to be low key in damage, to contrast with the claw/claw/bite half orc druid I've been playing, dirgesinger fits the backstory mostly, and the debuff it applies is an adeguate influence on encounters without being blatant about it, I suppose?
...


Totally appreciate that but I feel that putting 4 feats (charming the arrow, point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot or knowledge devotion) into archery and losing additional class features and skill points (by taking fighter levels) to be at best pretty mediocre at it will be pretty unspectacular to play.

How about embracing the debuffing a little more? With 2 levels in the racial paragon class, 1 level of bard and 1 level of dirgesinger taken you could go hexblade 2 or hexblade 1 and an extra level of bard for example if your gm allows the semi- official update to the hexblade. That would give you 6-7 hexes a day to lay on top of your dirgesinger moaning. Then top it up with the doomspeak feat for the tougher encounters, although you might need a little extra music feat at that point.

You can still carry a composite longbow but just have to aim at those not involved in melee.

[bean illus]

I see your point, I'll think on it some more, a dedicated archer may well be ade(q)uate whiplash :D

I'm fairly sure both a +2 bow and a +4 stat item wouldn't fit the budget, +1 bow and +2 stat item are likely. I haven't tinkered on the equip yet

Depending on play style at your table, a wand of cat's grace cost from 180 gp per charge, to as little as 10 gp/charge. You only need a few charges (and someone to use it on you, lol).

[ciopo]

Thanks everybody,
I'm currently wavering in kinda the opposite direction I was leaning to initially, RP2/bard3/fighter1 , and going heavy duty on inspire courage with word of creation + song of the heart + inspirational boost spell. These feat are just as thematic for the happening of the campaign race as being mourning would. this fae race of singers have a racial special song, even, which is close to word of creation in fluff. Mechanically it only makes incorporeal corporeal, but fluffwise it made dreams reality

There is no escape from having the spellcasting feature after all ;) , might as well have something more than just 2 cantrips

[Gorthawar]

There is no escape from having the spellcasting feature after all ;) , might as well have something more than just 2 cantrips
In for a penny, in for a pound! Why bother with the fighter level when you could get level 2 spells? ;)

Either way there are some acfs that you might want to consider.
1) Music of creation can get you song of the heart instead of inspire competence.
2) When going with the fighter level the divine bard would allow you to cast spells in armor and make use of the heavy armor proficiency

Last but not least remember that words of creation requires 15 intelligence so you might have to move your stats around a little.

[ciopo]

In for a penny, in for a pound! Why bother with the fighter level when you could get level 2 spells? ;)

Maybe, but I shudder to think of the choice paralysis on spell selection. I'm bad enough on prepared spellcasters where I can at least change day to day, spontaneous give me the urks! Which is a shame because I like spontaneous a bunch, mechanically speaking.

level 1 spells at least for this one are easy enough, Inspirational boost, swift invisibility, grease.

I spend *hours* between sessions making informed decisions about what my spell list for the next day is going to be based on what information I have on hand

but, maybe :)