how long does a grapple last?

[Samayu]

"Why am I still grappled?"
"Because you haven't succeeded on your escape check."
"But it's been ten minutes!"
"It's not my fault you dumped strength."
"You dragged me into the inn."
"Yes, and at half movement. I really have read the rules."
"But you're eating dinner now!"
"Look, page 195 says 'the condition specifies the things that can end it.' And the appendix only lists incapacitation and forced movement."

So.. is that really it? Once I have someone grappled, they can't get away unless they succeed on an escape check, or if I get bored?

[Tanarii]

You can always knock them unconscious / kill them.

[Zaile]

Forced movement also breaks the grapple. EB with repelling, Thunderwave, any wall effect that comes between you, or something as simple as an ally shoving you with one of their attacks and you choosing not to resist. You can also make shove attempts against the grappler, but that can be hard if he has a higher check. Braking grapples is super-easy with teamwork and the right spells.

[Samayu]

Yes, I know those things break grapples, and they're not too tough to do (I was maybe a little bit overly facetious in my examples). But it doesn't cost me anything to hold it? No action to retain my grasp? That just seems a little odd. You have to be able to use an action (not incapacitated), but you don't have to actually use it?

While I'm at it... Is there any way to get someone prone by grappling? If I go prone, can I drag them to the ground with me? That seems like: not by RAW, but I can't think why a GM would deny it.

[Zhorn]

Worth noting a repeated check every round will eventually break you free (unless they somehow have a grappling/athletics modifier of +19 greater than you're athletics/acrobatics modifier).

Repeated checks are like that, even against terrible odds, eventually the results will swing the other way with enough repetitions. You just have to be persistent in declaring you're continuing your escape attempts. Eventually they will roll low when you roll high.

Forced movement will be more reliable, but when options are limited don't give up on even the long shots.

And pay attention to any action your grappler declares that would need their hands (or grappling appendage) for, as they need to keep one free to be using on the grapple.

[Quietus]

Yes, I know those things break grapples, and they're not too tough to do (I was maybe a little bit overly facetious in my examples). But it doesn't cost me anything to hold it? No action to retain my grasp? That just seems a little odd. You have to be able to use an action (not incapacitated), but you don't have to actually use it?

While I'm at it... Is there any way to get someone prone by grappling? If I go prone, can I drag them to the ground with me? That seems like: not by RAW, but I can't think why a GM would deny it.

If you go prone, you're prone, it doesn't affect the grapple. However, you can attempt a shove (replace an attack with one), and if you succeed, they end up prone. And since they're grappled, they have 0 movement, and therefore can't get back up.

[Zaile]

Yes, I know those things break grapples, and they're not too tough to do (I was maybe a little bit overly facetious in my examples). But it doesn't cost me anything to hold it? No action to retain my grasp? That just seems a little odd. You have to be able to use an action (not incapacitated), but you don't have to actually use it?

While I'm at it... Is there any way to get someone prone by grappling? If I go prone, can I drag them to the ground with me? That seems like: not by RAW, but I can't think why a GM would deny it.

I caught the factiousness. I have a RK/War Wiz grappler now and he is very good at what he does, but does not have good damage as he would with GWM or Sharpshooter. Tough as hell, and my GM gets frustrated sometimes, but he has learned and thrown enough at us to make it challenging to me.

As previous poster said, if you use the grappling hand to do ANYTHING else, the grapple breaks. Also, you could houserule a CON/STR save, DC 10-13ish, after each minute of grappling as a kind of endurance check.

RAW if you drop prone, the grappled creature does NOT come with you, you have to knock it prone. Shoving prone is the exact same check as making a grapple (you can also use this to shove a creature aside). Athletics opposed by Athletics/Acrobatics. Once you have them prone, they cannot stand up unless the grapple is broken. Standing up costs half speed, grapple speed = 0.

***Edit: Swordsaged

[Samayu]

"OK, I've got him grappled. I go prone."
"OK, you're prone. He swings at you with advantage."
"How can he? We're both prone."
"No, you went prone, not him."
"How can I be grappling him from the ground? Did I change my arm bar to an ankle bar?"
"This is a lawful society. We have to follow the rules."
"That doesn't make sense!"
"This is D&D. It doesn't have to make sense."

I guess a shove attack makes sense. Or, I don't know about calling it a shove, but definitely an athletics check.

But in the same vein as the above, I don't know how you can justify keeping him grappled if you're not prone as well.

"Since I won the shove contest, I'm on top of him. I'm not on the ground, so I'm not prone."

[Quietus]

"OK, I've got him grappled. I go prone."
"OK, you're prone. He swings at you with advantage."
"How can he? We're both prone."
"No, you went prone, not him."
"How can I be grappling him from the ground? Did I change my arm bar to an ankle bar?"
"This is a lawful society. We have to follow the rules."
"That doesn't make sense!"
"This is D&D. It doesn't have to make sense."

I guess a shove attack makes sense. Or, I don't know about calling it a shove, but definitely an athletics check.

But in the same vein as the above, I don't know how you can justify keeping him grappled if you're not prone as well.

"Since I won the shove contest, I'm on top of him. I'm not on the ground, so I'm not prone."

Opponent flat on their back, your knee is on their chest and fist balled up in the collar of their shirt. You're in enough control, and haven't shrank your profile enough, that you don't count as prone.

Alternatively, you're standing fully up, and have grabbed them by the hair, dragged them toward their inevitable doom.

Alternatively, you're a centaur, and you're just straight up standing on their chest.

As far as the bolded above goes, check out the shove special attack. Replaces a single attack, you make an Athletics check against an opposed Athletics or Acrobatics (defender's choice). You win, they're prone.

[Naanomi]

Repeated checks are like that, even against terrible odds, eventually the results will swing the other way with enough repetitions. You just have to be persistent in declaring you're continuing you're escape attempts. Eventually they will roll low when you roll high.
A high level Barbarian with Indominable Might could easily keep unskilled opponents grappled without them having any chance of escaping (other than slowly beating the barbarian unconscious I guess)

[Jerrykhor]

Yes, I know those things break grapples, and they're not too tough to do (I was maybe a little bit overly facetious in my examples). But it doesn't cost me anything to hold it? No action to retain my grasp? That just seems a little odd. You have to be able to use an action (not incapacitated), but you don't have to actually use it?

While I'm at it... Is there any way to get someone prone by grappling? If I go prone, can I drag them to the ground with me? That seems like: not by RAW, but I can't think why a GM would deny it.

So whats your point? That grappling needs a nerf? That its weird that the grappler wont get tired based on the rules? Nothing new here, the Fighter can swing his weapon for hours without tiring, he can take the dash action for hours without the rules saying 'you would be exhausted by now'.

Grappling is not the only thing that is goofy in dnd, you can poke holes in any rule if you look hard enough. Take a look at Shoving rules. You always shove the target at max 5ft away, doesnt matter you have 3 strength or 30 strength, doesnt matter if you are shoving a tiny spider or an ogre.

[Tanarii]

"How can I be grappling him from the ground? Did I change my arm bar to an ankle bar?"


Grappling isn't really like any kind of bar. It's more like a grab.

You changed your belt grab to a shoestring grab.

[Greywander]

It's worth noting that you can use either Athletics or Acrobatics to escape a grapple, while grappling a creature only uses Athletics. This essentially means that it's generally easier to escape a grapple than to initiate/hold one, as the number of creatures with decent STR or DEX is necessarily higher than just the number of creatures with a decent STR.

If you're using Athletics to escape, though, and you plan to run away and don't want to take an OA, you can shove them away instead, as the forced movement will break the grapple and you'll now be outside of their melee range.

Also, because grappling uses STR, a lot of grapplers tend to be STR builds that use heavy armor, so their DEX is often crap. You can use this to your advantage by targeting them with spells that use DEX saves that cause forced movement or physically separate the grappler from the grapplee.

[Valmark]

Note that the Grappling condition ends when the grappled is forced out of reach of the grappler.

Wether the opposite works is a gray area- meaning that if you shove the grappler away you could end up following.

Besides this, yes, once you have someone grappled keeping the grapple up costs nothing besides your free hand.

[Rara1212]

It's worth noting that you can use either Athletics or Acrobatics to escape a grapple, while grappling a creature only uses Athletics. This essentially means that it's generally easier to escape a grapple than to initiate/hold one, as the number of creatures with decent STR or DEX is necessarily higher than just the number of creatures with a decent STR.

If you're using Athletics to escape, though, and you plan to run away and don't want to take an OA, you can shove them away instead, as the forced movement will break the grapple and you'll now be outside of their melee range.

Also, because grappling uses STR, a lot of grapplers tend to be STR builds that use heavy armor, so their DEX is often crap. You can use this to your advantage by targeting them with spells that use DEX saves that cause forced movement or physically separate the grappler from the grapplee.

Also, breaking free of a grapple takes your entire action, but if you have multiple attacks, it costs just one of them to shove the enemy. So you might get multiple shove attempts.

[Zhorn]

A high level Barbarian with Indominable Might could easily keep unskilled opponents grappled without them having any chance of escaping (other than slowly beating the barbarian unconscious I guess)
Almost. If your Strength Score is equal to or greater than their possible range with a d20+Athletics/Acrobatics, then yes, once grappled it is impossible for them to escape the grapple.
Even with 20 in Strength and Expertise in Athletics, it is still possible if the opponent has at the very least a +1 modifier for Athletics or Acrobatics.

[Contrast]

So first things first, you seem to be thinking of grappling like having someone pinned in a hold or something.

Rulewise is seems more akin to having a grip on some of their clothing. They can still move around mostly unhindered they just aren't going anywhere without dislodging you. A pin is more akin to the pin that the Grappler feat lets you utilise.

Regarding grappling someone prone - I'd usually just imagine them crouched or on one knee. Sometimes I wouldn't even flavour it as them maintaining a constant grip but rather keeping a hand/attention free such that if the person tries to crawl away or stand up you have the necessary wherewithal to keep them put.


More broadly, could you clarify what your concern is exactly?

That it breaks your immersion? If we use initiative to run a foot race between two people with a speed of 30ft, one will always beat the other by exactly 30ft and we'll be able to tell who the moment initiative is rolled. Yes its not realistic but this is a game and we compromise on some things to make running the game easier. Yes a DM probably wouldn't run a race that way but at the same time a DM probably wouldn't run 'I want to keep hold of this man for the next 8 hours' as a series of 30,000 opposed athletics checks either.

You're welcome to suggest a more complicated set of rules but it would be an uphill struggle to convince me that adds something to the game worth the complexity.

That its OP? My experience suggests otherwise. Grappling is occasionally useful but I've never felt it to be OP. Apart from anything else it requires a free hand which means you're not using a 2-hander or shield.

[sophontteks]

Ooh I can take a swing at this!

Commoner- "Oh no that thief is getting away!"
wizard- "I cast facetious spell of holdin--
Fighter- *interrupts the wizard* "I grab the thief with...my hand."
wizard- *gasps* "What foul sorcery is this?"
Fighter- "Yeah, I mean, I work out."
Wizard- "But won't you get tired?"
Fighter- "No, my family was cursed with opposable thumbs long ago. I can grab things for hours really. It's kind of my thing."
Wizard- "But how will we move him?"
Fighter- "Well, I could knock him off his feet and drag him."
Wizard *gasps* But how will you stay on your own feet?"
Fighter- *facepalms* "Have you never dragged something, or someone, before?"
Wizard- "But won't you get tired?"
Fighter- "Eventually I guess. I'm carrying 100 kilograms of gear, so this is really nothing."

The fighter proceeds to knock the thief off his feat and drags the thief, kicking and screaming, all the way to the guardhouse while the wizard, in utter disbelief over the fighters mystical powers of having muscles, trails behind.

[Tanarii]

Almost. If your Strength Score is equal to or greater than their possible range with a d20+Athletics/Acrobatics, then yes, once grappled it is impossible for them to escape the grapple.
Even with 20 in Strength and Expertise in Athletics, it is still possible if the opponent has at the very least a +1 modifier for Athletics or Acrobatics.
They'd need a +5 total Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatcis) to escape. Assuming a Str 24 Barbarian. More if the barb had the right belt.

[Quietus]

It's worth noting that you can use either Athletics or Acrobatics to escape a grapple, while grappling a creature only uses Athletics. This essentially means that it's generally easier to escape a grapple than to initiate/hold one, as the number of creatures with decent STR or DEX is necessarily higher than just the number of creatures with a decent STR.

If you're using Athletics to escape, though, and you plan to run away and don't want to take an OA, you can shove them away instead, as the forced movement will break the grapple and you'll now be outside of their melee range.

Also, because grappling uses STR, a lot of grapplers tend to be STR builds that use heavy armor, so their DEX is often crap. You can use this to your advantage by targeting them with spells that use DEX saves that cause forced movement or physically separate the grappler from the grapplee.

This isn't entirely correct - because someone who is relying on grapples, will typically have Athletic trained, and may have other features to back this up. Relatively few monsters have training in one of those skills.


They'd need a +5 total Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatcis) to escape. Assuming a Str 24 Barbarian. More if the barb had the right belt.

And that's just setting the floor - even when the barb first gets that ability, being able to tell the grappled character they have to breach 20 before the barbarian even deigns to roll is not nothing.

[Valmark]

They'd need a +5 total Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatcis) to escape. Assuming a Str 24 Barbarian. More if the barb had the right belt.

With Str 24 and Expertise it would be +19 no? So even then there would be a tiny chance of someone with +0 to get free (unsure how the tie is handled, personally the grappled would be free).

[JonBeowulf]

The fighter proceeds to knock the thief off his feat and drags the thief, kicking and screaming, all the way to the guardhouse while the wizard, in utter disbelief over the fighters mystical powers of having muscles, trails behind.

Did the fighter have to take Tough or Resilient(STR) to get those muscles? Nowhere in the character description does it say the fighter has muscles.

[Keltest]

Did the fighter have to take Tough or Resilient(STR) to get those muscles? Nowhere in the character description does it say the fighter has muscles.

Sure it does. They have proficiency in muscle saves!

[Zhorn]

They'd need a +5 total Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatcis) to escape. Assuming a Str 24 Barbarian. More if the barb had the right belt.
Hold up friend, you're changing the scenario and then correcting me based on your change.
In my post I've established a STR 20, so the floor of the check in this instance is 20, in which case it is still possible for a character with only a +1 in either Athletics or Acrobatics to break out of the grapple.

Now if we ARE going all out with a lv20 Barbarian...

With Str 24 and Expertise it would be +19 no? So even then there would be a tiny chance of someone with +0 to get free (unsure how the tie is handled, personally the grappled would be free).
24 Strength = +7 STR mod
Expertise = +12 Proficiency
Total modifier of +19
Yes that is impossible for someone to free themselves using an Escaping a Grapple action without a +5 in either Athletics or Acrobatics. (@Valmark, our floor is the Strength Score, not the Athletics modifier)
Add to that our level capped Barbarian has unlimmited rages at this point we can take it as a given they will be raging for advantage of all strength checks, meaning they would need to roll both dice below 6 for someone with a +5 to even have a chance on a natural 20 working.

[Kurt Kurageous]

So whats your point? That grappling needs a nerf?

This has been my pet peeve here on GitP. Stop nerfing martials.

Why do we discuss this? Because we think martial is physics, physiology, and real sciency stuff we can know. We sure can't say the same thing about magic. So no discussion about nerfing spells, ever. But grappling? Sure.

So we discuss it because we can, not because we should.

[DwarfFighter]

Just sayin'...

The 5e grapple rules are just over 200 words.

The 3.5e grapple rules are about 1,700 words.

-DF

[micahaphone]

For flavor reasons I've frequently thought of a typical grapple as grabbing someone's wrist or collar - I could stay standing (or mostly standing) irrelevant if the grapplee was standing or prone, I am confident in my grip enough to drag someone around the mat/gym with that, they are still free to twist, squirm, and rearrange themselves such that they could still swing a sword or do some fancy hand motions, but they're not leaving my side anytime soon.

Soon as I get side control, a lot of that changes, but that's probably closer to what the feat is for.

[Demonslayer666]

If you tried to go prone while grappled in my game, I would see if they could lift you. This could prevent you from going prone, but it might encumber them as well.

RAW does not say those are the only ways you can break a grapple. Improvised actions can as well. The DM decides what happens, but get creative and try to gain advantage. Lick his hand.

[Valmark]

Hold up friend, you're changing the scenario and then correcting me based on your change.
In my post I've established a STR 20, so the floor of the check in this instance is 20, in which case it is still possible for a character with only a +1 in either Athletics or Acrobatics to break out of the grapple.

Now if we ARE going all out with a lv20 Barbarian...

24 Strength = +7 STR mod
Expertise = +12 Proficiency
Total modifier of +19
Yes that is impossible for someone to free themselves using an Escaping a Grapple action without a +5 in either Athletics or Acrobatics. (@Valmark, our floor is the Strength Score, not the Athletics modifier)
Add to that our level capped Barbarian has unlimmited rages at this point we can take it as a given they will be raging for advantage of all strength checks, meaning they would need to roll both dice below 6 for someone with a +5 to even have a chance on a natural 20 working.

I forgot a 20th level barbarian has Indomitable Might. Yes, one would need at least a +5 or +4 depending on how the tie is handled.

[Naanomi]

If you tried to go prone while grappled in my game, I would see if they could lift you. This could prevent you from going prone, but it might encumber them as well.

RAW does not say those are the only ways you can break a grapple. Improvised actions can as well. The DM decides what happens, but get creative and try to gain advantage. Lick his hand.
Lift? Not Drag/Push/Pull? You are a nicer grappler than most barbarians

from professional experience, people try to drop weight to escape holds all the time, unless they are very heavy it doesn't work against skilled folks (and doesn't put them in a good position either way)

[Darc_Vader]

I forgot a 20th level barbarian has Indomitable Might. Yes, one would need at least a +5 or +4 depending on how the tie is handled.

By RaW, I believe in general ties on opposed checks go to the defender, so a +5 would be needed. (More specifically a tie means ‘no change in the situation’, there might be some edge cases where that’s desired by the instigator, but I can’t think of any so ‘defender wins ties’ is probably close enough to the rules)

[Valmark]

By RaW, I believe in general ties on opposed checks go to the defender, so a +5 would be needed. (More specifically a tie means ‘no change in the situation’, there might be some edge cases where that’s desired by the instigator, but I can’t think of any so ‘defender wins ties’ is probably close enough to the rules)

Yeah, my question is more wether the grappled is really considered the attacker if they are trying to free themselves.

[NecessaryWeevil]

Ooh I can take a swing at this!

...
The fighter proceeds to knock the thief off his feat and drags the thief, kicking and screaming, all the way to the guardhouse while the wizard, in utter disbelief over the fighters mystical powers of having muscles, trails behind.

Nice. Just wait until the fighter demonstrates that he has two hands. Minds will explode.

[stoutstien]

Lift? Not Drag/Push/Pull? You are a nicer grappler than most barbarians

from professional experience, people try to drop weight to escape holds all the time, unless they are very heavy it doesn't work against skilled folks (and doesn't put them in a good position either way)

its all in the hips...its all in the hips.

[JNAProductions]

By RaW, I believe in general ties on opposed checks go to the defender, so a +5 would be needed. (More specifically a tie means ‘no change in the situation', there might be some edge cases where that’s desired by the instigator, but I can’t think of any so ‘defender wins ties’ is probably close enough to the rules)

Yeah, the bolded bit is what the RAW is, if I remember correctly.

So with a +4 against a 24 Strength Barbarian 20 (+13 Athletics Mod) you can avoid getting grappled (if you roll a 20 and they roll an 11 or less) but once grappled, you're stuck till you figure out a different way to escape, since you can't BEAT the 24.

[Tanarii]

Hold up friend, you're changing the scenario and then correcting me based on your change.
In my post I've established a STR 20, so the floor of the check in this instance is 20, in which case it is still possible for a character with only a +1 in either Athletics or Acrobatics to break out of the grapple.

Now if we ARE going all out with a lv20 Barbarian...

24 Strength = +7 STR mod
Expertise = +12 Proficiency
Total modifier of +19
Yes that is impossible for someone to free themselves using an Escaping a Grapple action without a +5 in either Athletics or Acrobatics. (@Valmark, our floor is the Strength Score, not the Athletics modifier)
Add to that our level capped Barbarian has unlimmited rages at this point we can take it as a given they will be raging for advantage of all strength checks, meaning they would need to roll both dice below 6 for someone with a +5 to even have a chance on a natural 20 working.


I forgot a 20th level barbarian has Indomitable Might. Yes, one would need at least a +5 or +4 depending on how the tie is handled.

I strongly suspect Zhorn is forgetting about Indomitable Might as well.

I was forgetting it kicks in a level 18, so at level 18 the minimum check the Barbarian is rolling is indeed a 20, assuming they maxed out Str. With a Barb that's fairly likely. It only goes to a minimum check value of 24 at 20th, assuming you had Str 20 prior to that.


Yeah, my question is more wether the grappled is really considered the attacker if they are trying to free themselves.
IIRC a tie in a contested check means the situation does not change from whatever it was before the check. It's not a question of who wins, "attacker" or "defender"

[Reynaert]

Lift? Not Drag/Push/Pull? You are a nicer grappler than most barbarians

from professional experience, people try to drop weight to escape holds all the time, unless they are very heavy it doesn't work against skilled folks (and doesn't put them in a good position either way)

Apparently this bears repeating some more: A 5e grapple is *not* a hold. More like a grab. You have got a hold with one hand. Like at the very beginning of a judo match, only not with two hands but just one.

[Naanomi]

Apparently this bears repeating some more: A 5e grapple is *not* a hold. More like a grab. You have got a hold with one hand. Like at the very beginning of a judo match, only not with two hands but just one.
I'm using 'hold' here as a shorthand for my own experience with protective physical management techniques; some of the techniques of which could easily be 5e Grapples (although I suspect 5e grappling is a bit 'rougher' than the techniques we'd use professionally)

[Segev]

If you tried to go prone while grappled in my game, I would see if they could lift you. This could prevent you from going prone, but it might encumber them as well.

RAW does not say those are the only ways you can break a grapple. Improvised actions can as well. The DM decides what happens, but get creative and try to gain advantage. Lick his hand.

In point of fact, from a game-mechanics tactical position, intentionally dropping prone when grappled really only helps the guy grappling you.

[MaxWilson]

While I'm at it... Is there any way to get someone prone by grappling? If I go prone, can I drag them to the ground with me? That seems like: not by RAW, but I can't think why a GM would deny it.

You can't drag them down with you, but you can Shove them (costs an attack and an Athletics contest) or if you can fly or climb walls you can lift them 10 and then drop them for 1d6 falling damage. Taking falling damage leaves you prone. DM's call whether or not you can keep grappling them throughout the fall--if so, Monks can grapple + prone by spending only one attack and 10' of movement plus their reaction (to avoid taking falling damage themselves).

[DwarfFighter]

Here's an idea: a PC sneaks up behind a guard, grapples him, climbs up the wall nearby and drops the guard on his head.

-DF

[CapnWildefyr]

Or, just grab on and use as a meat shield. : ) Great for blocking arrows. Would you get partial cover vs dragon breath?

[Zhorn]

I strongly suspect Zhorn is forgetting about Indomitable Might as well.
???:smallconfused: I don't think so, being that string of responses was specifically about Indomitable Might. Feel free to go over the numbers in my posts, but I'm sure you'll find they are all lining up.

Post #16 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24885438&postcount=16) - Reference a Barbarian with 20 STR, note that a +1 is needed for a check to even be possible to beat it.
1d20+1 = max value of 21 > Barbarian's STR check floor of 20

Post #24 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24885624&postcount=24) - Reference a Barbarian with 24 STR, note that a +5 is needed for a check to even be possible to beat it.
1d20+5 = max value of 25 > Barbarian's STR check floor of 24

[Tanarii]

???:smallconfused: I don't think so, being that string of responses was specifically about Indomitable Might. Feel free to go over the numbers in my posts, but I'm sure you'll find they are all lining up.

Post #16 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24885438&postcount=16) - Reference a Barbarian with 20 STR, note that a +1 is needed for a check to even be possible to beat it.
1d20+1 = max value of 21 > Barbarian's STR check floor of 20

Post #24 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24885624&postcount=24) - Reference a Barbarian with 24 STR, note that a +5 is needed for a check to even be possible to beat it.
1d20+5 = max value of 25 > Barbarian's STR check floor of 24
I was confused by you talking about strength mods and expertise. What was the point you were making with that part, given the context of an Indomitable Might floor?

[Zhorn]

I was confused by you talking about strength mods and expertise. What was the point you were making with that part, given the context of an Indomitable Might floor?
That even with a stacking of a whole lot of benefits there is still a possibility of beating the check with a small modifier, even if the grappler is heavily specialized in the competition and the grapplee is not.

[Naanomi]

A strength rogue with reliable talent might be even better at ‘ensuring grapple’, yes?

[Greywander]

That even with a stacking of a whole lot of benefits there is still a possibility of beating the check with a small modifier, even if the grappler is heavily specialized in the competition and the grapplee is not.
Barbarian isn't necessarily the strongest option, though. Yes, their floor (at 20th level) is 24, which is pretty high, requiring at least a +5 to even have a chance of overcoming it. However, consider a rogue with 20 STR, expertise, and Reliable Talent. The lowest they can roll is a 10, +12 from expertise, +5 from STR, for a minimum roll of 27. You'd need at least a +8 to beat that, which means either a 26 STR or proficiency with some STR (or a high CR, as prof. bonus goes up to +9 for CR 30). Granted, this is a highly specific build, so even on a dedicated grappler this would be unusually high. I wonder if we can push it higher without magic items (e.g. Storm Giant Belt) or single-use buffs like Guidance?

And actually, rogue's not a bad choice for a grappler. Once you shove them prone, they're basically helpless to your Sneak Attacks, allowing you to kill them very quickly. Maybe get Elven Accuracy, possibly dip 3 levels into Champion fighter for extended crit range (or 5 for Extra Attack). Now I'm wondering if there's some build we can make where we can grapple and shove prone using our action and then attack with a weapon for a Sneak Attack using a bonus action. Shield Master might work, since we can shove prone as a BA, it just depends on which of the three interpretations of Shield Master your DM is using. It just seems a shame for a rogue to spend their whole turn grappling without making a Sneak Attack.

[Zhorn]

..But once that grapple lands their target is in for a WORLD of hurt.
Yeah, Rogue would be the undisputed king of grapple checks with a dedicated build, with that high check floor coming online at 11th level compared to the Barbarian at 18th.
Rogues can takes Expertise in Athletics natively, so they don't need dips or feats to get there, 3 ASI's by 10th level so even starting as low as 14 STR they can have 20 STR by the time the build needs it, making 11th level checks with +5 STR and 2*+4 Proficiency for +13 Athletics modifier, Reliable Talent making their minimum roll a 10 resulting in a check floor of 23 for an 11th level Rogue, that's damn good.

[Xetheral]

Barbarian isn't necessarily the strongest option, though. Yes, their floor (at 20th level) is 24, which is pretty high, requiring at least a +5 to even have a chance of overcoming it. However, consider a rogue with 20 STR, expertise, and Reliable Talent. The lowest they can roll is a 10, +12 from expertise, +5 from STR, for a minimum roll of 27. You'd need at least a +8 to beat that, which means either a 26 STR or proficiency with some STR (or a high CR, as prof. bonus goes up to +9 for CR 30). Granted, this is a highly specific build, so even on a dedicated grappler this would be unusually high. I wonder if we can push it higher without magic items (e.g. Storm Giant Belt) or single-use buffs like Guidance?

And actually, rogue's not a bad choice for a grappler. Once you shove them prone, they're basically helpless to your Sneak Attacks, allowing you to kill them very quickly. Maybe get Elven Accuracy, possibly dip 3 levels into Champion fighter for extended crit range (or 5 for Extra Attack). Now I'm wondering if there's some build we can make where we can grapple and shove prone using our action and then attack with a weapon for a Sneak Attack using a bonus action. Shield Master might work, since we can shove prone as a BA, it just depends on which of the three interpretations of Shield Master your DM is using. It just seems a shame for a rogue to spend their whole turn grappling without making a Sneak Attack.

Anything with three unrestricted attacks per round would do it. Other than multiclassing with 11 levels of fighter, Haste+Extra Attack is likely the easiest approach. A Bladesinger 6/Rogue X is probably the fastest, but a Vengeance Paladin 9/Rogue X or a Valor Bard 10/Rogue X would also work. [Extra Attack Class] 5/War Cleric 1/Rogue X also works, although with only a few uses per day. Otherwise, as you say, [Extra Attack Class] 5/Rogue X with Shield Master will work at some tables.

Unless you plan to use the grapple for other purposes, however, there are easier ways to get consistent melee advantage on a Rogue. Definite points for style though. :)

[KorvinStarmast]

Tom Petty and Stevie Nicks did a song about this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5i7j0VhEHw):

Stop dragging my bard around

[Valmark]

Apparently this bears repeating some more: A 5e grapple is *not* a hold. More like a grab. You have got a hold with one hand. Like at the very beginning of a judo match, only not with two hands but just one.

I'm not sure I understood this. First you say that a grapple (in 5e) isn't a hold, then you say that it's an hold with one hand.

[Zhorn]

I think they are meaning the difference between a restraining hold like an armbar or full nelson vs just holding onto a wrist or a fistfull of shirt.
Outside of additional rules, the general grapple in 5e is the latter, where the confusion earlier in the thread was some folks thinking of grapples as the former.

[Greywander]

I'm not sure I understood this. First you say that a grapple (in 5e) isn't a hold, then you say that it's an hold with one hand.
I think a "hold" is a specific technical term; it's not just a grab, it's grabbing the opponent in a specific way. I'm not sure about the exact definition, but it's possible a "hold" might use both of your hands (which a grapple doesn't) and/or involve grabbing the opponent's arm or otherwise restricting their movement (which a grapple doesn't; they can still use both their hands to attack or use items). A grapple is more just grabbing their shirt or something, so that they can't move away from you, but can otherwise move their arms freely.

[rlc]

Can you be supine while suffering from the prone condition?

[Zhorn]

Can you be supine while suffering from the prone condition?

While real world prone and supine are the difference between facedown and faceup, in game mechanics prone is just used for lying down without much regard to direction.

A giant snapping turtle for example would be in reality fine while prone, as that would be their norm for movement, but their Stable feature describes them being upside down while prone, which would be supine, and makes no comment on their movement speed dropping to zero which would be the case in the real world, but in game a supine turtle would still just be under the prone condition and able to crawl at half movement.

[Valmark]

I think they are meaning the difference between a restraining hold like an armbar or full nelson vs just holding onto a wrist or a fistfull of shirt.
Outside of additional rules, the general grapple in 5e is the latter, where the confusion earlier in the thread was some folks thinking of grapples as the former.


I think a "hold" is a specific technical term; it's not just a grab, it's grabbing the opponent in a specific way. I'm not sure about the exact definition, but it's possible a "hold" might use both of your hands (which a grapple doesn't) and/or involve grabbing the opponent's arm or otherwise restricting their movement (which a grapple doesn't; they can still use both their hands to attack or use items). A grapple is more just grabbing their shirt or something, so that they can't move away from you, but can otherwise move their arms freely.
Uh, alright, this makes sense.

While real world prone and supine are the difference between facedown and faceup, in game mechanics prone is just used for lying down without much regard to direction.

A giant snapping turtle for example would be in reality fine while prone, as that would be their norm for movement, but their Stable feature describes them being upside down while prone, which would be supine, and makes no comment on their movement speed dropping to zero which would be the case in the real world, but in game a supine turtle would still just be under the prone condition and able to crawl at half movement.

Clearly they have round soft shells that allow them to bounce along.

[stoutstien]

Barbarian isn't necessarily the strongest option, though. Yes, their floor (at 20th level) is 24, which is pretty high, requiring at least a +5 to even have a chance of overcoming it. However, consider a rogue with 20 STR, expertise, and Reliable Talent. The lowest they can roll is a 10, +12 from expertise, +5 from STR, for a minimum roll of 27. You'd need at least a +8 to beat that, which means either a 26 STR or proficiency with some STR (or a high CR, as prof. bonus goes up to +9 for CR 30). Granted, this is a highly specific build, so even on a dedicated grappler this would be unusually high. I wonder if we can push it higher without magic items (e.g. Storm Giant Belt) or single-use buffs like Guidance?

And actually, rogue's not a bad choice for a grappler. Once you shove them prone, they're basically helpless to your Sneak Attacks, allowing you to kill them very quickly. Maybe get Elven Accuracy, possibly dip 3 levels into Champion fighter for extended crit range (or 5 for Extra Attack). Now I'm wondering if there's some build we can make where we can grapple and shove prone using our action and then attack with a weapon for a Sneak Attack using a bonus action. Shield Master might work, since we can shove prone as a BA, it just depends on which of the three interpretations of Shield Master your DM is using. It just seems a shame for a rogue to spend their whole turn grappling without making a Sneak Attack.

Battlesmith artificer. With a few select infusions you can get a high minimum on your grapple roll, can spike it with adding intelligence modifier, have a bonus action helper that can shove/grapple/shove itself, and that without holding up all the normal class stuff.

After lv 14 can grab some rune knight and out grapple just about anything.

[Samayu]

So first things first, you seem to be thinking of grappling like having someone pinned in a hold or something.

Rulewise is seems more akin to having a grip on some of their clothing. They can still move around mostly unhindered they just aren't going anywhere without dislodging you. A pin is more akin to the pin that the Grappler feat lets you utilise.

Regarding grappling someone prone - I'd usually just imagine them crouched or on one knee. Sometimes I wouldn't even flavour it as them maintaining a constant grip but rather keeping a hand/attention free such that if the person tries to crawl away or stand up you have the necessary wherewithal to keep them put.


More broadly, could you clarify what your concern is exactly?

That it breaks your immersion? If we use initiative to run a foot race between two people with a speed of 30ft, one will always beat the other by exactly 30ft and we'll be able to tell who the moment initiative is rolled. Yes its not realistic but this is a game and we compromise on some things to make running the game easier. Yes a DM probably wouldn't run a race that way but at the same time a DM probably wouldn't run 'I want to keep hold of this man for the next 8 hours' as a series of 30,000 opposed athletics checks either.

You're welcome to suggest a more complicated set of rules but it would be an uphill struggle to convince me that adds something to the game worth the complexity.

That its OP? My experience suggests otherwise. Grappling is occasionally useful but I've never felt it to be OP. Apart from anything else it requires a free hand which means you're not using a 2-hander or shield.

A few people have brought this up, and it explains most of my issues. I had indeed been thinking of grappling as some sort of wrestling hold. But since the grappled condition doesn't even cause disadvantage for the grappled, the rules don't even indicate this is true. My main concern was that maintaining control didn't cost anything, but considering the only effect is that movement is prevented, I don't think that's a huge deal.

And now I'm not going to ask why a Medium creature can prevent a Large creature from dragging him off...

[ProsecutorGodot]

And now I'm not going to ask why a Medium creature can prevent a Large creature from dragging him off...

The narrative part is more or less covered by the mechanics here. If it was completely unreasonable for you to be able to stop the creature from simply walking off with you instead, you probably wouldn't have succeeded in grappling them to begin with.

[Sol0botmate]

Grapple is what it is. And escaping it is not easy. Shove + Grapple is very good tactic if you have good tools to support it (like trunk from Loxodon or tentacles from Simic Hybrid).

For example Rune Knight can use Storm Rune to give shoved + grappled enemy disadvantage on ability check every turn. Meaning that with high STR, advantage from Giant's Might + Expertise in Athletics = most have almost no chance to escape. The best part is however that escaping grapple cost an Action. Even if enemy escaped grapple from Barbarian or Rune Knight - they will just shove + grapple again on their turn. And considering their super high rolls, Barb 24 STR or RK Storm Rune - average enemy has no chance succeeding 3 times in a row.

There are also other ways to stack extra bonuses to grapple checks, like Guidance or Emb. Bond of Peace Cleric or Inspiration Die.

Conclusion - escaping from grapple doesn't change much for enemy in scenario where they are grappled by expert. That's what Grappler wants - to waste enemy Action to try to escape instead of attacking, casting spells etc. But if you are grappled enemy being dragged into Wall of Fire + Moonbeam or Spike Growth, then trying to escape is your only option. In any case- you lose by wasting actions just to be grappled again. But alternative is being burnt alive by Fire + Radiant/Piercing dmg per turn while trying to attack with disadvantage high AC + high HP enemy who grappled you.