[Spheres] How would you build a "Synthesist"?

[ezekielraiden]

So, I'm not currently in any Spheres-based PF game (or any other kind, for that matter) right now. However, I've seen some ads and have looked into it, and I'm running into a conflict. I really love the Synthesist Summoner archetype! It's such a fun thing. Yet the actual Sphere Summoner archetype is...well, if you thought the Unchained Summoner was a nerf, it's pretty clear to me the Sphere Summoner is a nerf on steroids, even with my limited knowledge of Spheres overall. (Losing both the Summon Monster feature AND Eidolon evolutions, but only getting something back for ONE of those features? Wow, such a great exchange....) It's pretty much to the point of me straight-up saying, "y'know what? I'm pretty sure you could make a better 'Synthesist Summoner' Spheres character with a completely different class."

Thing is...I know almost nothing about how to make a good Spheres character. The whole thing still feels really impenetrable, like I'm missing too many fundamental bits and pieces to properly understand what's going on. Hence, this thread.

The one and only wrinkle I'll throw into the mix: there's a pretty clear front-runner in the Aegis class and...it just doesn't do it for me. The armor suit you summon is just that, armor, nothing more and nothing less. Sure, it accomplishes much of the same goal as Synthesist, but the flavor is all off. I'm really into the "you merge with a separate entity" stuff, and I just don't see how the Aegis pulls that off to any meaningful degree. If you can spin me a version of Aegis that does capture that "two beings as one" feel, I'm all ears.

For all you Spheres aficionados out there: if you had carte blanche ability to pick from the best options Spheres has to offer, whether it be Power, Might, or even blending in other stuff, what would you pick, and why? The only limit is that you can't use standard PF spellcasting, since (as noted) this is for trying to integrate into a game where the standard Summoner (chained or unchained) is not available.

[Rynjin]

It's pretty easy to make one with a Shifter that dips into Conjuration a bit. You can even take the Drawback that requires your companion to be alive to cast spells. I had a Shifter build a while back who was basically a guy granted shapeshifting powers by a Faerie Dragon companion and it worked well.

[Kitsuneymg]

Simple. Alteration feat companion merger and a companion.

A scholar can get small and large animal training, genetic mutation, and experimental evolution for a badass companion. Then either dip or use amateur arcanist to get alteration. That finalizes at 8th level (if you’re a dwarf or spend a feat on extra shoal at knack.

I think it starts by level 4, sadly. You can probably dip something else that casts to get faster access to a companion and casting.

But by 8th level you have an improved familiar with your animal companions extra feats, HD, and skills, and a pool of evolution points.

If you want a more combat focused variant, skip the familiar stuff and just go with a martial animal companion. SOM abilities are mostly extraordinary, so your combined form gets those.

If you’re not as concerned with evolutions, a Druid gets full casting, alteration, and a companion. So it ready made from level 1 to do this.

[SangoProduction]

The most simple and straight forward way: Figure out what you are wanting from a synthesist. What key abilities. Then find those abilities in the spheres and feats.

In general, most abilities that the summoner has can be approximated with the Conjuration sphere (save for expendable summons, though you can take talents that enables resummoning of dead ones at lower power - I don't recommend).
For synthesist in particular, the great big ideas can be summed up as: Becomes a (partial) monster. Gains stats of the eidolon, allowing for stupid stat dumping. And to be able to have a larger effective health pool.

For the stat dumping, you can pick up Wraith, and possess your summoned pet(s). Take the puppet template so that it truly has to be you piloting it, while getting a boost of toughness on your flesh suit.
Meanwhile, you are effectively untargetable so long as you continue to possess them, while still able to pass out magical nonsense. And because they need to chop through your minion to get at your very chewy core, you also have that larger effective HP pool. You are vulnerable to being expelled from the body by any means that shoves out demons and other possessing incorporeal types, which normal synthesist isn't. But that's an extremely specific weakness.

For becoming a monster deal, if you don't want to simply possess your summon using the wraith method, you can use the Alteration sphere for its vast variety of form alterations. Some are less interesting / powerful than others. But it gives you whole cloth freedom for fluff.

And yes, there's the companion merger feat that has already been mentioned. That's probably more true to form to Synthesist, but has already been mentioned.

And lastly, to handle the larger effective health pool by transferring your hp to your eidolon...pretty hard to do. But if you give your Eidolon Life sphere with the Empathic Healing talent, then your summon can take an action to freely heal you (and others, I guess), while taking damage on itself equal to the healing. But it removes the spell point cost. It's relatively ... suboptimal. You can also personally take Life sphere with Fount of Life talent to have a stored Healing Pool, which can be expended all at once. Again, not exactly equivalent, but you are effectively "transferring" the damage away from your HP to your Healing Pool.

I've got the Spheres in Review series in my signature if you want an analysis on the power level of many / most spheres of power.
Of course, the simplest solution is simply to use one of the Sphere Summoner archetypes for Summoner and adapting Synthesist.

[StSword]

I'd go with Symbiotic Knight (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/symbiotic-knight) Armorist.

You're armor is fluffwise, a living symbiote ala Venom or Witchblade.

It grants alteration traits.

As an armorist, you can take morphic weapon to show that your sword or whatever grows out of your arm, and/or use natural materials to make natural weapons into bound weapons for magic enhancement.

Maybe take the Sealing crafting tradition (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/magical-items#toc39), and the weapons one forms could be intelligent magical items because there are outsiders or whatever trapped in them.

[ezekielraiden]

I'd go with Symbiotic Knight (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/symbiotic-knight) Armorist.

You're armor is fluffwise, a living symbiote ala Venom or Witchblade.

It grants alteration traits.

As an armorist, you can take morphic weapon to show that your sword or whatever grows out of your arm, and/or use natural materials to make natural weapons into bound weapons for magic enhancement.

Maybe take the Sealing crafting tradition (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/magical-items#toc39), and the weapons one forms could be intelligent magical items because there are outsiders or whatever trapped in them.

Dang, that really does have some awesome flavor...kinda sucks that it's a half-caster though. :(

Edit: Perhaps that's actually worth digging into, though. Pretty much 100% of the optimization advice for Pathfinder says that half-caster classes are mostly garbage, rarely worth even looking at. Obviously, Spheres changes casting...a lot. But sacrificing caster levels as a caster is one of the biggest no-nos you can possibly commit. How does the Armorist stack up, then, in comparison to other classes? I don't really need to be Tier 1 or whatever, but my knee-jerk reaction to seeing "your CL is half your character level, and you only get 1 talent every other level" is "oh, so you suck, got it." Do the Spheres really change optimization to such a radical extent that that is truly viable?

[Rynjin]

Dang, that really does have some awesome flavor...kinda sucks that it's a half-caster though. :(

Edit: Perhaps that's actually worth digging into, though. Pretty much 100% of the optimization advice for Pathfinder says that half-caster classes are mostly garbage, rarely worth even looking at.

Honestly the people who say that are trying to act way smarter than they actually are. Yes, full caster classes are the be-all, end-all in many ways, but the game is essentially balanced around 6 casters and half casters anyway, so there's no issue. It takes some extreme mental gymnastics to say Paladins, Rangers, and Bloodragers are "garbage" when they can easily overcome most of the challenges presented by the game, and the ones they can't are generally going to be the kind of thing most players of martial characters are content with allowing the other members of the party to arrange (dimensional travel, primarily).

The only classes in the game I'd say are "garbage" are the (Core Only) Fighter and Monk (archetypes and Advanced Weapon/Armor training options have patched these into a playable state over the years), the Core Rogue (just play Unchained), the Swashbuckler, and the Shifter (the latter two commit the ultimate sin of not delivering on the fantasy they exist to deliver; other options ultimately perform their same schtick better).

That said, the Armorist is indeed an extremely poor CASTER specifically, and is not a class I'd recommend for someone who wants to replicate a Synthesist, which is powerful mostly because of the Summoner's busted spell list, the same way a standard Summoner is (though the Synth is significantly weaker). I would still recommend a Shifter, as while they're still a half-caster, they get full CL with Alteration, and your CL doesn't really matter for Conjuration Sphere effects to get the other side of things.

The busted spell list combined with the "shapeshifting" ability is not something you can really replicate with Spheres, as Spheres casting is on the whole more limited than regular casting. If you truly want to play a Synthesist...just play one.

[StSword]

Dang, that really does have some awesome flavor...kinda sucks that it's a half-caster though. :(

Edit: Perhaps that's actually worth digging into, though. Pretty much 100% of the optimization advice for Pathfinder says that half-caster classes are mostly garbage, rarely worth even looking at. Obviously, Spheres changes casting...a lot. But sacrificing caster levels as a caster is one of the biggest no-nos you can possibly commit. How does the Armorist stack up, then, in comparison to other classes? I don't really need to be Tier 1 or whatever, but my knee-jerk reaction to seeing "your CL is half your character level, and you only get 1 talent every other level" is "oh, so you suck, got it." Do the Spheres really change optimization to such a radical extent that that is truly viable?

The folks from Legendary Games saw that some consider that a problem, so Arcforge: Gleam of Eternity has a variant rule- Enhanced Talent Progression.

In that optional rule, most mid and low casters in fact gain a talent with every class level instead of caster level. So it's kind of the equivalent of the "high psionics" option for soulknives.

There is something to remember when it comes to Armorists though. At level five, they gain the ability to summon implements with bound equipment.

So an armorist who can bind a +5 sword can also bind a +5 rod of destruction.

Get the Combat Implementation arsenal trick, and every bound weapon can double as an implement, so you can have bound a +5 sword of destruction, a +5 dagger of warp, etc, etc.

Implements Armorists can summon can include the "extra sphere" or "extra magic talent" special abilities.

So a 20th level Armorist can have a caster level of 15 in five or more spheres if so desired.

With five pieces with each a total of 10, that's up to 20 extra magic talents, in addition to the 12 a 20th level Armorist would know innately.

So Armorists, if they really want to, don't do badly when it comes to magic, but at a certain point it does mean sacrificing their combat skills.

Sadly, this doesn't apply to the Symbiotic Knight archetype, because they give up the option to bind weapons.

Now if I were DM and someone asked me, I'd let a Symbiotic Knight take a modified Combat Implementation arsenal trick that allows them to make their armor an implement for Max Steel style transformations, because that would be awesome. But not RAW sadly.
.

[ezekielraiden]

Honestly the people who say that are trying to act way smarter than they actually are. Yes, full caster classes are the be-all, end-all in many ways, but the game is essentially balanced around 6 casters and half casters anyway, so there's no issue. It takes some extreme mental gymnastics to say Paladins, Rangers, and Bloodragers are "garbage" when they can easily overcome most of the challenges presented by the game, and the ones they can't are generally going to be the kind of thing most players of martial characters are content with allowing the other members of the party to arrange (dimensional travel, primarily).

It's not really the point of the thread, so I'm not going to really argue over it. Just noting my experience with play and what seems a consensus in the discussion online.


The only classes in the game I'd say are "garbage" are the (Core Only) Fighter and Monk (archetypes and Advanced Weapon/Armor training options have patched these into a playable state over the years), the Core Rogue (just play Unchained), the Swashbuckler, and the Shifter (the latter two commit the ultimate sin of not delivering on the fantasy they exist to deliver; other options ultimately perform their same schtick better).
I'll grant you that.


That said, the Armorist is indeed an extremely poor CASTER specifically, and is not a class I'd recommend for someone who wants to replicate a Synthesist, which is powerful mostly because of the Summoner's busted spell list, the same way a standard Summoner is (though the Synth is significantly weaker). I would still recommend a Shifter, as while they're still a half-caster, they get full CL with Alteration, and your CL doesn't really matter for Conjuration Sphere effects to get the other side of things.
Yeah, that would make sense. I also like the Radiant Protean archetype, which trades away some things that don't interest me all that much and gets a full-CL Light sphere in the bargain, which works well for picking up just Encompassing Glow and getting the most out of it. Finding the right balance between Conjuration and Alteration sounds like it would be the main difficulty of making this approach work.


The busted spell list combined with the "shapeshifting" ability is not something you can really replicate with Spheres, as Spheres casting is on the whole more limited than regular casting. If you truly want to play a Synthesist...just play one.
TBH, the only powerful spell that ever really mattered to me on the Summoner list was Create Demiplane, and that only because I find that spell line really cool. I'd be pretty bad at ruthlessly optimizing it (I'm not very good at ruthless optimization in general; I find it tiring), I just love the notion of having your own little pocket dimension to chill in. Looks like squeezing that into a Spheres character would be tough, though. Even with some Drawbacks and other such things, it seems like the maximum number of talents is going to be the real crimp in pulling off this thing.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

The Synthesist is only a nerf to action economy, but if you're determined to reinvent the wheel I'd suggest Alter-Ego Vigilante. Instead of being Batman, you "tag out" with some other creature (the eidolon stand-in) for combat

[ezekielraiden]

The Synthesist is only a nerf to action economy, but if you're determined to reinvent the wheel I'd suggest Alter-Ego Vigilante. Instead of being Batman, you "tag out" with some other creature (the eidolon stand-in) for combat

It's less that I'm "determined to reinvent the wheel" and more that
(a) I've seen several games that require spheres-only characters, so standard casting is verboten, and
(b) the Sphere Summoner (or, rather, the Ultimate version, specifically) is an especially mean nerf, because you lose BOTH the evolution points AND the Summon Monster feature, but in return you only get 1 extra Conjuration talent every odd level (well, and the usual "base sphere + max CL" specialist package).

The non-Ultimate version wasn't as bad of a nerf, since it got full talent progression (despite being a "mid-caster") plus the bonus Conjuration talents, but...I mean, for real. You're giving up a hell of a lot more than you're getting, even if spheres-casting were equivalently powerful...which it isn't. I get that Spheres is, in part, an effort to rebalance Pathfinder so it's less egregiously pro-caster, and I'm absolutely NOT a caster-supremacy type guy. It just seems blindingly obvious that the Sphere Summoner is a MAJOR nerf to a class that...didn't really need it in context? Not saying Summoner didn't have power issues, it totally did, but most of those issues are solved by changing from Vancian casting to spheres (thereby completely eliminating the "stupidly low-level spells" problem), and by NOT being able to just crack open the MM and summon a dozen useful things whenever they like (thereby eliminating the "incredible power at your fingertips" problem).

I mean, maybe those 10 extra Conjuration talents are a huge deal and I'm not evaluating them properly--talents are good, no question, I just don't currently see how trading away "an eidolon that grows more powerful and gets all sorts of fancy bonuses of its own" is commensurate to "you have the Conjuration sphere and use your full class level as your CL with it." So unless it IS the case that 10 extra Conjuration talents significantly outweighs the power of the Summon Monster feature, the Sphere Summoner is a double-whammy nerf of "we took away a class feature and gave you almost nothing in return" AND "we eliminated all the special spells and the ability to pull stuff from the Monster Manual." Or, maybe a different way to phrase all of this: It sounds, to me, like the 10 bonus Conjuration talents ARE your Eidolon's evolution points, which means Summon Monster was replaced with diddly-squat nothing, which...I mean, I dunno about you but I'd call that a nasty nerf.

Hence, if I'm going to be getting only 2/3 or less of the class, I might as well pick something else that either (a) isn't trying to do something the Spheres designers don't want done, or (b) is actually intended by those designers to do the main things that I find cool about the Synthesist.

The major part is the hulking out/suiting up/whatever, but being a reasonably good caster and having the ability to summon some things is still part of the package. It's a lesser part, for me, but still relevant. Even just from what has already been said, I've learned a lot.

TL;DR: Spheres seems like it nerfs Summoner hard, but a lot of people like Spheres to the exclusion of "classic" PF. My interest is solely to get in front of any hypothetical game I might play, by finding out what far-more experienced people would do.

[Rynjin]

Spheres "nerfs" every caster hard, that's kind of the point.

That said, the Sphere Summoner doesn't seem that bad at all. In a very generous interpretation...it doesn't replace the original Eidolon at all. In a more strict one, Conjuration talents are universally quite good. Did you know: your Companion can also be built to have its own caster level, set of Talents, and Spell pool completely separate from yours?

But yes, typically trying to recreate non-Spheres characters using Spheres is an exercise in folly. The fundamental design of the system doesn't allow for the kind of flexibility a typical caster gets. Some of the traditional casters get a better deal than others (the Spheres Arcanist is...kind of insane for a Spheres caster) but typically yes, it's a "nerf", in the same way that a Wizard in 5th Edition feels "nerfed" from 3.5 or Pathfinder. It was kind of one of the reasons for Spheres of Power to come into existence, with Spheres of Might being much the opposite (most martial characters will feel "buffed" if made in SoM).

[ezekielraiden]

Spheres "nerfs" every caster hard, that's kind of the point.

That said, the Sphere Summoner doesn't seem that bad at all. In a very generous interpretation...it doesn't replace the original Eidolon at all. In a more strict one, Conjuration talents are universally quite good. Did you know: your Companion can also be built to have its own caster level, set of Talents, and Spell pool completely separate from yours?

But yes, typically trying to recreate non-Spheres characters using Spheres is an exercise in folly. The fundamental design of the system doesn't allow for the kind of flexibility a typical caster gets. Some of the traditional casters get a better deal than others (the Spheres Arcanist is...kind of insane for a Spheres caster) but typically yes, it's a "nerf", in the same way that a Wizard in 5th Edition feels "nerfed" from 3.5 or Pathfinder. It was kind of one of the reasons for Spheres of Power to come into existence, with Spheres of Might being much the opposite (most martial characters will feel "buffed" if made in SoM).

Sure, I grant all of that. It just seems...rather blatant and obvious with the Sphere Summoner? Perhaps it's just my inexperience talking, but (as noted) the Sphere Summoner seems to trade out Summon Monster for...nothing. That's way beyond not having the stupidly-pro-caster design that spells have. That's straight-up just saying, "No, you don't get as many class features as you used to."

And no, I was not aware of those Companion things. That's...honestly a bit surprising.

[Rynjin]

Yup. You make it a Mage Companion.



Your companion gains poor base attack bonus progression (equal to 1/2 Hit Dice, rounded down) and uses a d6 for its Hit Dice. The companion must choose the Magical Companion (form) talent as its free (form) talent, but is not required to use natural casting, and may gain a casting tradition of your choice. The companion is considered a Mid-Caster, and gains spell points equal to its Hit Dice plus its casting ability modifier.

A mage companion must still spend feats to gain additional magic talents, as usual, and does not gain the two free bonus talents a caster usually gains with the casting class feature. A mage companion loses Climb and Swim as class skills but gains Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft as class skills. A mage companion may choose to give up the natural attacks granted by its base form to gain the Implement Bearer (form) talent as a bonus talent. This archetype cannot be combined with the mindless companion archetype.

You could have multiple, separate companions each with a different Talent set too if you wanted. Implement bearer then boosts its CL to essentially full caster level.



Your companion appears with an implement of a sphere chosen when this talent is gained. This implement gains a +1 enhancement bonus for every 3 Hit Dice possessed to a maximum of +5 (minimum +1). The implement may take any desired shape (a staff, a ring, etc.), and if the companion possesses another talent that grants it equipment (such as Battle Creature or Shield Bearer), it may choose to combine the benefits of the implement and the summoned equipment, creating one item that functions as both.

They get full Feat progression to do with as you please, though it will likely be spent primarily on "Extra Talent". Essentially for every talent you spend on Extra Companion, you get a number of bonus Talents equal to 1+1*number of odd caster levels.

There is also a Martial Companion form that gets Spheres of Might Talents.

This...is likely the reason for the nerf.

[Jack_Simth]

You need the Construct Armor (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/blood#toc58) feat (plus requirements), the Formed Construct (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/blood#toc62) dual sphere feat (plus requirements), Lengthened Control (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/blood#toc21) to keep it around all day, and Blood Construct Mastery (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/blood#toc55) so you don't need to worry about having a source at the beginning of the day.You want Fusion (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/alteration#toc60) (and requirements), Permanent Transformation (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/alteration#toc64) (and requirements), plus a Conjouration Companion (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/conjuration#toc0) plus Lingering Companion (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/conjuration#toc46) to keep it around a while.For this, you need the Companion Merger (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/alteration#toc70) feat to bond with your familiar/animal companion, and a familiar or animal companion (available via feats - Familiar Bond (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/familiar-bond/), Animal Ally (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/animal-ally/), Eldritch Heritage (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/eldritch-heritage) (Sylvan (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/archetypes/paizo-sorcerer-archetypes/wildblooded/mutated-bloodlines-paizo/sylvan/) or Arcane (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/sorcerer/bloodlines/bloodlines-from-paizo/arcane-bloodline/)), et cetera).Regardless of which method you select, you can then boost it by various means specific to the path chosen - Alteration Sphere Talents, Improved Familiar, Evolved Companion, Conjouration Sphere Talents, etc.

Note that almost any Spheres Caster can do these things, it's just questions of "What level does the method come online?" "How good is it?" "How much do I really want to invest in this?" and so on.


Yup. You make it a Mage Companion.



You could have multiple, separate companions each with a different Talent set too if you wanted. Implement bearer then boosts its CL to essentially full caster level.



They get full Feat progression to do with as you please, though it will likely be spent primarily on "Extra Talent". Essentially for every talent you spend on Extra Companion, you get a number of bonus Talents equal to 1+1*number of odd caster levels.

There is also a Martial Companion form that gets Spheres of Might Talents.

This...is likely the reason for the nerf.You're math is off by default. They get full feat progression, but the gotcha is that they have fewer hit dice than your caster level; it's specifically a 3/4 progression (just like medium BAB).

That's fixable, though, if you don't mind a little risk: you can combine the Mage (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/conjuration#toc6) and Unwilling (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/conjuration#toc10) archetypes to get a Conjouration companion that has full Hit Dice, Take the Implement Bearer option under Mage (it shouldn't be using it's natural weapons anyway), and it's caster level for a chosen sphere matches your own. Pick a base form with a bad Will save (Avian, Ooze, Quadruped, or Vermin), buff your Conjouration save DC a bit, and the companion will fail the will save about 95% of the time.

[StSword]

There is also a Martial Companion form that gets Spheres of Might Talents.

Not form, archetype.

And like archetypes, you can can stack more than one on.

I don't see anything that makes mage and martial companion incompatible.

So one could have a mage martial companion who gets martial talents and magical talents.

Although the poor bab and lower hd are going to make the companions a bit squishy for a gish.

But does allow for some nice little combinations.

[Rynjin]

Your math is off by default. They get full feat progression, but the gotcha is that they have fewer hit dice than your caster level; it's specifically a 3/4 progression (just like medium BAB).

That's fixable, though, if you don't mind a little risk: you can combine the Mage (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/conjuration#toc6) and Unwilling (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/conjuration#toc10) archetypes to get a Conjouration companion that has full Hit Dice, Take the Implement Bearer option under Mage (it shouldn't be using it's natural weapons anyway), and it's caster level for a chosen sphere matches your own. Pick a base form with a bad Will save (Avian, Ooze, Quadruped, or Vermin), buff your Conjouration save DC a bit, and the companion will fail the will save about 95% of the time.

D'oh! I took a quick glance at the table, then the text ("A companion begins with one feat, and gains another feat at every odd Hit Die.") and assumed it was another of the (many) cases of there being a typo in the table in a book like this, my bad.

It's still really good though.

[ezekielraiden]

Alright. I have an application to put together for a Spheres game, and have explicitly been given approval for a Shifter with the following archetypes (even though technically the first two are incompatible, DM has said it's okay):
Martial Shifter
Pack Master
Radiant Protean

We will be level 9, 25 PB. Obviously by being able to take Pack Master, I'll be going the Companion Merger route. However, something I've been a little...confused by is the advice I've seen in various places for gish Shifters to take Unarmed Training (from Equipment) to get the Open Hand sphere to work. Does that actually work? It reads as though Unarmed Training doesn't actually work for full-attacks, and thus wouldn't apply anytime I'd actually be taking advantage of all of my natural attacks...

Or, more simply: how do I do a natural attack build in Spheres of Power/Might? I'll obviously be going for whatever real and effective size boosts I can get (hence Radiant Protean, to throw Encompassing Light on myself at CL=HD), but how can I actually get Might spheres to work for me?

[StSword]

You took martial shifter.

There is very little in spheres of might that works while full attacking.

So said advice is based on the idea that you'll be taking advantage of the SoM system which focuses on standard attacks.

If you plan on pouncing all over the place like Tigger, than yes, Unarmed training is going to be far less useful.

So I'd suggest looking through spheres of might.

If you'd rather pounce pounce pounce, well that's fine, but you don't want to build the character and then find out you locked yourself out of stuff you'd rather be doing.

[Rynjin]

Spheres of Might in a nutshell: "Yup. It's Vital Strike time."

As a Natural Attacker with the ability to change size at-will, you can make very good use of this. Easy peasy SoM build for a Martial Shifter (since you don't get many talents), buy Berserker Sphere access, then Brute Sphere Access. Focusing Shove on Brute, something like Reaper's Momentum or similar on Berserker. Grab Greater Shove later as well for Brute.

Your bread and butter every turn: Move action shove, Standard action Brutal Strike with Vital Strike for BIG BOI damage. Splash any other nice talents you might want. If you kill somebody, smack someone else inside your Reach as a Free action.

This frees up your Alteration talents to give you other stuff BESIDES a ton of natural attacks as well.

[ezekielraiden]

Isn't Vital Strike incompatible with Pounce?

[Rynjin]

Isn't Vital Strike incompatible with Pounce?

Yes, but you don't need Pounce if you're using Vital Strike. You can just make a single big, BIG Natural Attack and multiply its dice real good while adding massive static bonuses like Brutal Strike and Power Attack to them.

[StSword]

Or go tactical, for example....

There's a bestial trait that allows you to attempt to trip people you bite.

Take Snap Kick and you get an attack of opportunity whenever you successfully trip someone.

There's a dual wielding talent Dual Opportunity that allows you to make two attacks once a round with an attack of opportunity.

And when they try to get up, you get to attack of opportunity them again.

[ezekielraiden]

As a Natural Attacker with the ability to change size at-will, you can make very good use of this. Easy peasy SoM build for a Martial Shifter (since you don't get many talents), buy Berserker Sphere access, then Brute Sphere Access. Focusing Shove on Brute, something like Reaper's Momentum or similar on Berserker. Grab Greater Shove later as well for Brute.

Your bread and butter every turn: Move action shove, Standard action Brutal Strike with Vital Strike for BIG BOI damage. Splash any other nice talents you might want. If you kill somebody, smack someone else inside your Reach as a Free action.
I can probably get a significant portion of this via the Martial Tradition granted by Martial Shifter. Certainly at least Berserker and Brute spheres would be doable, and could make some sense thematically. (Sentence-length concept: Character is linked to an agathion trapped in an artifact, thus learning powers to let agathion sort of escape its prison, either in a weakened animal form, or stronger by merging with char.) I won't need any talents spent on Light (since a single drawback can get me Encompassing Light), so I may have some room. I assume that Savage from Berserker or Focused Might from Brute would also be good picks? They seem like easy ways to regain martial focus if I've spent it.


This frees up your Alteration talents to give you other stuff BESIDES a ton of natural attacks as well.
This is a good point. Any suggestions on good utility picks?


Yes, but you don't need Pounce if you're using Vital Strike. You can just make a single big, BIG Natural Attack and multiply its dice real good while adding massive static bonuses like Brutal Strike and Power Attack to them.
Alright. That's just really confusing compared to the advice I've seen pretty much everywhere else, both Spheres-specific and non-Spheres. Pounce is almost universally given the highest possible rating (or, if not, the second-highest), so I've been looking high and low to find anything to further support it. It's definitely possible I've missed something, but I'm sure you know better than I do how little there is to find. Honestly, it...feels more than a little frustrating that the most natural Pathfinder approach to natural attacks--have lots of them--got diddly-squat nothing in terms of Spheres support.

[Rynjin]

It's because that playstyle doesn't really NEED any extra support; base Pathfinder supports "full attack them until they die" quite well. The big post hoc "Martial character overhaul" attempts (Path of War and Spheres of Might) both encourage the use of Standard action abilities.

[ezekielraiden]

It's because that playstyle doesn't really NEED any extra support; base Pathfinder supports "full attack them until they die" quite well. The big post hoc "Martial character overhaul" attempts (Path of War and Spheres of Might) both encourage the use of Standard action abilities.

Fair enough.

Since I have you here...I have a question. How, exactly, does Accommodating Form work? My google-fu has failed me and I figure this is one of my best places to ask around.

Because it LOOKS like it's saying that you can apply a single (no-SP-cost) trait from the selected talent as many times as you want. But I could also see it meaning "you can apply it ONE time and not have that ONE instance count against your trait limit."

[StSword]

Fair enough.

Since I have you here...I have a question. How, exactly, does Accommodating Form work? My google-fu has failed me and I figure this is one of my best places to ask around.

Because it LOOKS like it's saying that you can apply a single (no-SP-cost) trait from the selected talent as many times as you want. But I could also see it meaning "you can apply it ONE time and not have that ONE instance count against your trait limit."

You choose an alteration form talent. Let's say Cosmic Form as an example.

Whenever you shapeshift, you can add an additional trait that doesn't cost a spell point, so from Cosmic Body-Any but Ethereal, and that trait doesn't apply to your limit on shapeshifted traits.

You can buy it once for every four shifter levels you have (minimum1), so if you bought it 5 times you could apply an extra five traits from five alteration talents.

Oh yes, I don't know if your DM would let you take them, but there are monster talents (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/practitioner-bestiary) that would be useful to someone with natural attacks.