Resources for a spy

[King of Nowhere]

I want to build a 12th level spy npc, when i realized i have no idea how to do that, besides getting 12 rogue levels and getting as many skill points as possible.

The established facts are that she has at least some rogue levels for sneak attack, and she isn't a spellcaster. She's at least passable at assassination, but she's not a full assassin. She's great at discovering informations, disguise, infiltration.

suggest me some neat tricks, thanks.

[Doctor Despair]

Zhentarim Spymaster says hello

Here's a suggested 1-20:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24811667&postcount=12

[liquidformat]

What do you have access to and how powerful do you want this NPC spy/assassin to be?

Anyways Might Try Changeling Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3/Psibond Agent 6 Take hidden power at level 1 there are a lot of great powers that could be taken depending on your cup of tea; Control Light, Defensive Precognition, Dimension hop, charm, Entangling Ectoplasm, and Vigor are all standouts but there are a lot of good ones, Two Weapon Fighting at 3, Daring Outlaw 6, Craven 9, Darkstalker or Knowledge Devotion 12. Take the level 1 Changeling Rogue AFC and either the third level changeling ACF or Penetrating Strike ACF.
This isn't the most powerful rogue you will come across but pretty good all around. Being a changeling lets you really leverage disguise and social stuff in general and having daring outlaw and swashbuckler makes them decent melee and psibond agent is a lot of fun you can do things like seeing through others eyes. All around I think this is a pretty powerful spy/assassin without going spell slinger.

[Biggus]

The Spymaster prestige class from CAdv is worth a look.

Edit: for items, you'll probably want a Hat of Disguise and a Wand of Undetectable Alignment (usable via UMD). You might also want a few scrolls of Misrepresent Alignment (Races of Eberron).

[Doctor Despair]

The Spymaster prestige class from CAdv is worth a look.

Edit: for items, you'll probably want a Hat of Disguise and a Wand of Undetectable Alignment (usable via UMD). You might also want a few scrolls of Misrepresent Alignment (Races of Eberron).

They'll almost certainly want to be a Changeling for Racial Emulation, so the Hat isn't as necessary.

[Biggus]

They'll almost certainly want to be a Changeling for Racial Emulation, so the Hat isn't as necessary.

Considering the hat is only 1,800GPs and they've got 21,000GPs to spend, they might be better off taking a different race, eg one which gives a Dex bonus and/or is small for the Hide and Move Silently bonuses.

[King of Nowhere]

Anyways Might Try Changeling


They'll almost certainly want to be a Changeling for Racial Emulation, so the Hat isn't as necessary.
sorry, i forgot to add in the "already established" part: she's an elf. a regular vanilla elf. middle-aged.

as for power level, i found it's virtually impossible to describe one's table level of optimization, sorting through a bunch of options and seeing those that fit is easier

[Quentinas]

A prestige class I like and that can be quite funny is the Anarchomancer from dragon magazine 315, I plan to use it ton infiltrate an organization by creating basically a second character, but when needed unleashing the spellcasting of the original character if needed then go away for one day (mission or something similar) redoing the ritual and infiltrating again. Or if you don't like that this elf has two character you could use the ebonmar infiltrator but is not so strong (it has many requisite) and a level 12 would be 1 level less than gaining hide in plain sight

[liquidformat]

sorry, i forgot to add in the "already established" part: she's an elf. a regular vanilla elf. middle-aged.

as for power level, i found it's virtually impossible to describe one's table level of optimization, sorting through a bunch of options and seeing those that fit is easier

Gray Elf, sun elf, star elf, or even standard elf works with the build I gave, just slightly less powerful and would require the hat as stated above.

[Gruftzwerg]

I want to build a 12th level spy npc, when i realized i have no idea how to do that, besides getting 12 rogue levels and getting as many skill points as possible.

The established facts are that she has at least some rogue levels for sneak attack, and she isn't a spellcaster. She's at least passable at assassination, but she's not a full assassin. She's great at discovering informations, disguise, infiltration.

suggest me some neat tricks, thanks.

Have a look a the ongoing Iron Chef contest (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624099-Iron-Chef-Optimization-Challenge-in-the-Playground-CVIII). It will soon reveal builds for the Crimson Scourge prc (13:59 GMT on Sunday, January 17th, 2020 is the deadline for the entries. The build reveal should thus be within the next 24h I guess). There might be some interesting builds that fit your requirements.

[King of Nowhere]

what about feats? any good non-combat feat that's more interesting than a skill focus?

[Doctor Despair]

what about feats? any good non-combat feat that's more interesting than a skill focus?

Most of the good spy feats I know are Changeling-specific. Maybe consider Fell Conspiracy if you're going to have a network of spies?

[Telonius]

I guess the big question I have is, what's he supposed to be doing? "A spy" can involve a lot of different things. Is he impersonating people, stealing secrets, assassinating enemies, foiling the guy who wants to blow up the world with a moon laser?

How well-defended are his targets (whatever they are)? Are we in a situation where Bluff and Disguise checks are sufficient to keep him alive, or does he need to go full Mind Blank/Vecna-Blooded to avoid being shot on sight?

[Doctor Despair]

I guess the big question I have is, what's he supposed to be doing? "A spy" can involve a lot of different things. Is he impersonating people, stealing secrets, assassinating enemies, foiling the guy who wants to blow up the world with a moon laser?

How well-defended are his targets (whatever they are)? Are we in a situation where Bluff and Disguise checks are sufficient to keep him alive, or does he need to go full Mind Blank/Vecna-Blooded to avoid being shot on sight?

Even Mind Blank/Vecna-Blooded can be trouble if they use Detect Good/Detect Evil and they are exclusively aligned, hence needing other spells to emulate specific alignments.

... then causing you to ping problematically to detect magic, arcane sight, and greater arcane sight, requiring you to have Spymaster or Zhentarim Spy to ping as you please to such effects (and invalidating the need for Mind Blank/Vecna-Blooded).

At a certain level, Deep Cover just becomes mandatory.

[King of Nowhere]

I guess the big question I have is, what's he supposed to be doing? "A spy" can involve a lot of different things. Is he impersonating people, stealing secrets, assassinating enemies, foiling the guy who wants to blow up the world with a moon laser?

How well-defended are his targets (whatever they are)? Are we in a situation where Bluff and Disguise checks are sufficient to keep him alive, or does he need to go full Mind Blank/Vecna-Blooded to avoid being shot on sight?

a bit of everything, i'd say. impersonating people to steal secrets. sometimes assassinating, but it's not her main job.
definitely not foiling the guy with the moon laser, she's an npc and this would be pc work. but she could be the one telling the pcs that there is a guy with a moon laser, and provide a detailed map of the secret base, the door access code, and a full list of every single guard working there and their susceptibility to bribes or intimidations.
her favourite modus operandi is to pose as a high-end prostitute and use that excuse to poke around. mind reading is very rare in my campaign. she'd be checked for magic, but as long as she had none, she could generally stay unnoticed. anyway, now she has deep cover, so it's no longer a problem.
her skills are mostly of the talky variety; bluff, gather information, diplomacy, disguise.

[bean illus]

Wow. A spy with zero magic? Hmmm.

I don't think you're assassinating anybody at 12th level without magic. Of course there's poison, and coup de gra (the later being your specialty?).

Well, all the talky skills are Cha, so ... Marshal 1 dip?
If you could start with a 17 Cha, it could be 20 by 12th level. Marshal doubles the bonus to +10, and grants skill focus (diplomacy).

Bluff
Diplomacy
Disguise
Gather Information
Handle Animal*
Intimidate
Perform
Use Magic Device*

Perform and UMD have some use in a disguise ...

Jack of All Trades is a great feat for disguises, and to save on skill points.

Seven skills plus all Knowledge (10+) and Profession (20+) skills.

Decipher Script* - INT;
Disable Device* - INT;
Handle Animal* - CHA; LOOK! HERE you get back Handle Animal with JoAT, and a +10 with motivate charisma. Take 10 (or 20) to acquire a pet or 2. Perhaps a mouse that fetches ... . Get an owl, and pose as a ranger 1.

Knowledge* - INT;
Arcana
Architecture
Dungeoneering
Geography
History
Local
Nature
Nobility
Religion
The Planes

Open Lock* - DEX;
Profession* - WIS;
Sleight Of Hand* - DEX; ACP
Tumble* - DEX; ACP
Use Magic Device* - CHA


Factotum 3 is a massive skill boost, with Int to 12 DexStr skills (in addition to 20+ Int skills).
Cunning Insight (Ex) is sorta like an Int smite, and can be used for attack AND damage in the same round.


31 + Craft (Int), Knowledge* (Int), Perform (Cha), Profession* (Wis), Language. Take 10 on most of these to seem to be anybody.

Int = 17 skills
Dex = 9 skills
Str = 3 skills

Con = 1 skill
Cha = 8 skills
Wis = 6 skills

Appraise - INT
Balance - DEX; ACP
Bluff - CHA
Climb - STR; ACP
Concentration - CON
Craft - INT
Decipher Script* - INT;
Diplomacy - CHA
Disable Device* - INT;
Disguise - CHA

Escape Artist - DEX; ACP
Forgery - INT
Gather Information - CHA
Handle Animal* - CHA;
Heal - WIS
Hide - DEX; ACP
Intimidate - CHA
Jump - STR; ACP

Knowledge* - INT;
Arcana
Architecture
Dungeoneering
Geography
History
Local
Nature
Nobility
Religion
The Planes

Listen - WIS
Move Silently - DEX; ACP
Open Lock* - DEX
Perform - CHA
Profession* - WIS
Ride - DEX
Search - INT
Sense Motive - WIS
Sleight Of Hand* - DEX; ACP
Speak Language -

Spellcraft - INT
Spot - WIS
Survival - WIS
Swim - STR; ACP
Tumble* - DEX; ACP
Use Magic Device* - CHA
Use Rope - DEX


If you tried all 3 classes you'd have:
Rogue 1/ Marshal 1/ Facto 3/ Spymaster 7

With a 14 Int, a 17(20) Cha, and JoAT, you acquire nearly 100 virtual ranks (that complete your disguises)

** You also have 3 deep cover identities. With that +4 bonus, your disguise is 29. Skill Focuses (Bluff) and (Diplomacy) bring those to 30, and 28. Gather Info at 27.

You could trade off trapfinding for mimic, which you would replace at facto 1. It's an SLA, but you needn't use it, at least not till the last moment when you needed to slip pursuit by becoming a bald, fat, middle aged hobbit in 1 standard action. *You can even scrub that with nystal's aura

* At level 13 consider Mindbender 1, which you fully qualify for, due to facto's arcane dilettante (Sp), and to spymaster's Magic Aura (Sp).

[liquidformat]

Hmm so I just read through Hellbreaker and it is pretty amazing for a spy to dip. Requires Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, and Undo Resistance. Undo Resistance is pretty cool in and of itself, you do 1 point of SR damage for each SA die you have. Anyways level one of Hellbreaker lets you pickup Mantle of Darkness a Hide in Plain Sight variant and Telepathic Static which kills telepathy and divination magic within 20' of you. Level 2 nets Steal Spell-Like Ability, which lets you steal a use of a SLA for 2 die of SA. Level 3 is +1d6 SA and level 4 lets you hitch a ride with anyone using a conjuration (teleportation) spell/SLA within 30' of you. The higher levels also have some nice abilities but for a spy I would say either 1 level dip or 4 levels is the best choice.

I still Think Psibond Agent is also a great choice, the Psibond ability is quite powerful and works well for a spy.

There really aren't many non combat related feats that would be worth while, even for an NPC spy the only that really comes to mind would be urban tracking. I would suggest looking at skill tricks

Here are some build ideas:

Gray Elf (could go Star or sun but gray is a nice choice) Rogue 3/Thug Fighter 2/ Psibond Agent 6/Hellbreaker 1
Feats: Hidden Talent lvl1, Weapon Finesse lvl3, Combat Expertise F1, Improved Feint F2, Knowledge Devotion (Planes) or Craven lvl6, Two Weapon Fighting lvl 9, Undo Resistance lvl 12
Skill Tricks that you might find useful: Assume Quirk, Clarity of Vision, Collector of Stories, Spot the Weakness, Group Fake-Out, Shrouded Dance, Second Impression, Timely Misdirection, Social Recovery, Back on Your Feet
I think in this build knowledge devotion is slightly better than craven but really either works just fine. Most of the classes in this build give disguise and perform so being a courtesan/hooker/stripper would work well. Psibond lets you mind jack your 'customers' and you have some assassin esc abilities though you aren't super strong at it.

If you are ok with being a bit loose on Monk Feat choices this is an interesting build

Gray Elf (could go Star or sun but gray is a nice choice) Rogue 3/Invisible Fist Monk 2/ Psibond Agent 6/Hellbreaker 1
Feats: Hidden Talent lvl1, Kung Fu Genius lvl3, Combat Expertise M1, Improved Feint M2, Weapon Finesse lvl6, Knowledge Devotion (Planes) or Craven lvl 9, Undo Resistance lvl 12

Really your best option is honestly to allow magic, Beguiler 12 is pretty great for what you are looking for, so is Rogue 5/Assassin 7, or Rogue 5/Assassin 2/Cloaked Dancer 5

[King of Nowhere]

Wow. A spy with zero magic? Hmmm.



actually, without knowing strict raw and all the pile of spell printed, i find that much more likely than the alternative.

the first thing you are going to scan when looking for intruders is magic. assassins, spies, scrying wizards, mighty warriors, all use magic. indeed, all of them need magic to function at high level. and sure, you could have a big pile of spell and another big pile of spells to disguise it, but i figure it would be damn hard. detecting magic should be easier than hiding magic. especially when, by fluff, i also established magic has other visible effects, such as a warping in the air, that can be detected by mundane means.

add in that in my campaign world mind reading is both much harder than it is made by raw, and strongly frowned upon for a lot of obvious reasons, and the idea of someone eschewing any magic and managing to avoid notice by being just another muggle becomes much more reasonable than the idea of someone with so much magic on him that he should glow like a bonfire and cause lensing effects like a black hole managing to escape detection. at least, in my campaign world.

of course, there are also scrying spells and lots of other spells to spy remotely. and of course, there will be a wizard specialized in spying with magic that will cast those. casters and mundanes should complement each other.

[bean illus]

Wow. A spy with zero magic? Hmmm.



actually, without knowing strict raw and all the pile of spell printed, i find that much more likely than the alternative.

the first thing you are going to scan when looking for intruders is magic. assassins, spies, scrying wizards, mighty warriors, all use magic. indeed, all of them need magic to function at high level. and sure, you could have a big pile of spell and another big pile of spells to disguise it, but i figure it would be damn hard. detecting magic should be easier than hiding magic. especially when, by fluff, i also established magic has other visible effects, such as a warping in the air, that can be detected by mundane means.

add in that in my campaign world mind reading is both much harder than it is made by raw, and strongly frowned upon for a lot of obvious reasons, and the idea of someone eschewing any magic and managing to avoid notice by being just another muggle becomes much more reasonable than the idea of someone with so much magic on him that he should glow like a bonfire and cause lensing effects like a black hole managing to escape detection. at least, in my campaign world.

of course, there are also scrying spells and lots of other spells to spy remotely. and of course, there will be a wizard specialized in spying with magic that will cast those. casters and mundanes should complement each other.

I wonder if you noticed, that besides those 24 letters i also wrote this.



I don't think you're assassinating anybody at 12th level without magic. Of course there's poison, and coup de gra (the later being your specialty?).

Well, all the talky skills are Cha, so ... Marshal 1 dip?
If you could start with a 17 Cha, it could be 20 by 12th level. Marshal doubles the bonus to +10, and grants skill focus (diplomacy).

Bluff
Diplomacy
Disguise
Gather Information
Handle Animal*
Intimidate
Perform
Use Magic Device*

Perform and UMD have some use in a disguise ...

Jack of All Trades is a great feat for disguises, and to save on skill points.

Seven skills plus all Knowledge (10+) and Profession (20+) skills.

Decipher Script* - INT;
Disable Device* - INT;
Handle Animal* - CHA; LOOK! HERE you get back Handle Animal with JoAT, and a +10 with motivate charisma. Take 10 (or 20) to acquire a pet or 2. Perhaps a mouse that fetches ... . Get an owl, and pose as a ranger 1.

Knowledge* - INT;
Arcana
Architecture
Dungeoneering
Geography
History
Local
Nature
Nobility
Religion
The Planes

Open Lock* - DEX;
Profession* - WIS;
Sleight Of Hand* - DEX; ACP
Tumble* - DEX; ACP
Use Magic Device* - CHA


Factotum 3 is a massive skill boost, with Int to 12 DexStr skills (in addition to 20+ Int skills).
Cunning Insight (Ex) is sorta like an Int smite, and can be used for attack AND damage in the same round.


31 + Craft (Int), Knowledge* (Int), Perform (Cha), Profession* (Wis), Language. Take 10 on most of these to seem to be anybody.

Int = 17 skills
Dex = 9 skills
Str = 3 skills

Con = 1 skill
Cha = 8 skills
Wis = 6 skills

Appraise - INT
Balance - DEX; ACP
Bluff - CHA
Climb - STR; ACP
Concentration - CON
Craft - INT
Decipher Script* - INT;
Diplomacy - CHA
Disable Device* - INT;
Disguise - CHA

Escape Artist - DEX; ACP
Forgery - INT
Gather Information - CHA
Handle Animal* - CHA;
Heal - WIS
Hide - DEX; ACP
Intimidate - CHA
Jump - STR; ACP

Knowledge* - INT;
Arcana
Architecture
Dungeoneering
Geography
History
Local
Nature
Nobility
Religion
The Planes

Listen - WIS
Move Silently - DEX; ACP
Open Lock* - DEX
Perform - CHA
Profession* - WIS
Ride - DEX
Search - INT
Sense Motive - WIS
Sleight Of Hand* - DEX; ACP
Speak Language -

Spellcraft - INT
Spot - WIS
Survival - WIS
Swim - STR; ACP
Tumble* - DEX; ACP
Use Magic Device* - CHA
Use Rope - DEX


If you tried all 3 classes you'd have:
Rogue 1/ Marshal 1/ Facto 3/ Spymaster 7

With a 14 Int, a 17(20) Cha, and JoAT, you acquire nearly 100 virtual ranks (that complete your disguises)

** You also have 3 deep cover identities. With that +4 bonus, your disguise is 29. Skill Focuses (Bluff) and (Diplomacy) bring those to 30, and 28. Gather Info at 27.

You could trade off trapfinding for mimic, which you would replace at facto 1. It's an SLA, but you needn't use it, at least not till the last moment when you needed to slip pursuit by becoming a bald, fat, middle aged hobbit in 1 standard action. *You can even scrub that with nystal's aura

* At level 13 consider Mindbender 1, which you fully qualify for, due to facto's arcane dilettante (Sp), and to spymaster's Magic Aura (Sp).

I believe these extra few characters should be considered as a good faith effort to give the exact sort of options you requested. I hope they were legible, and that you took the time to peruse them.

My desire is to be helpful, and well recieved. I apologize if my first sentence distracted from that.

[Maat Mons]

So, the spy is also going to be without magic items? Because there'd be visible emanations from any magic items she did wear? So no skill-bosting items? And no Charisma-boosting item?

This seems like information that should have been in the original post. Your house-rule giving everyone free, always-on Detect Magic changes things pretty drastically. Does this mean that Invisibility outlines you in magical side effects?

The lack of save-boosting items could be an issue. A 12th-level Rogue has a base Will save of +4, and not much Wisdom to speak of. With no Cloak/Vest of Resistance, and no +Wis item, she's probably got a +5 Will save. That's a pretty substantial chance of failing a save against a Zone of Truth spell. And those should probably cover the residences of anyone important, what with Hallow and SBG's Hall of Truth being cheep by 12th-level standards.

There's a web article that allows Swashbucklers of 4th level or higher to use skill checks to seduce NPCs and get information out of them. Prior to the publication of that article, I would have assumed that anyone could do that. But it turns out it's only level 4+ Swashbucklers. No one else can use feminine/masculine wiles to pump people for information.

Have you considered the Changeling PrC? Technically, the class can give spellcasting, but you could always just not pick that option. Oh wait, no. You're an elf, and that requires Able Learner. Unless... would half-elf be close enough?

Bardic Knack would let you effectively have 6 ranks in every skill that exists. That could be helpful for selling an identity. Ordinarily, Bards gain casting, but there's a variant in Dark Sun that doesn't.

Per DMGII, you could make her a Prodigy for +0 CR adjustment. That would give her +2 Cha and an additional +4 bonus on all Cha-based skills. Fey Spirit and Unearthly Beauty are also possibilities, but they're supernatural, so under your house rules, I'm not sure if they'd result in weird emanations.

[Quentinas]

If the problem are the magic auras why not using nystul magic as a wand for example? If inserted in an holding bag it would be not so difficult to trick people in thinking you don't have any magic item except in the rarest situation where identify is casted , so like never as is not so much used by guards (and I only know two ways to give an identify effect in one minute without considering spell like abilities and the same) Or if we want to be able to withstand for many days eternal wands can be used but these would require spell casting

[King of Nowhere]

I wonder if you noticed, that besides those 24 letters i also wrote this.



I believe these extra few characters should be considered as a good faith effort to give the exact sort of options you requested. I hope they were legible, and that you took the time to peruse them.

My desire is to be helpful, and well recieved. I apologize if my first sentence distracted from that.

oh, sorry. i didn't mean it that way. yes, i saw the rest of your post, and there was useful stuff. your first comment just sparked me a bit more to explain why i find it sensible that even in a high magic world, there would be things best done in a mundane way. i was never intending to be derogatory. i know this forum general attitude towards magic vs nonmagic, and i felt i needed to clarify somewhat better why it would even make sense to perform a nonmagical infiltration when you have wizards.


So, the spy is also going to be without magic items? Because there'd be visible emanations from any magic items she did wear? So no skill-bosting items? And no Charisma-boosting item?

This seems like information that should have been in the original post. Your house-rule giving everyone free, always-on Detect Magic changes things pretty drastically. Does this mean that Invisibility outlines you in magical side effects?

The lack of save-boosting items could be an issue.


no, not really. it's mostly a fluff based effect, and - barring extreme cases of high level people wandering around with 20 active buffs - it's not noticeable by the naked eye. Furthermore, a spell like invisibility would by design also include some way to mask this warping effect, at least visually. perhaps the dc 40 spot check to beat an invisibility would be just that, noticing the very tiny warping and realizing what it is. I didn't write it because it's not game-changing outside of very particular situations.
ffinally, there are so many things peculiar to my campaign world, my campaign, and my table optimization level and what we consider fair play and what we consider horribly cheesy, that if i were to explain all that stuff - that COULD afffect how i would build a character - it would take a full essay. it's much better to pick a list of options, and see which better fit the campaign.

and this spy has some nice magic items. she got some more expensive versions that would pass for normal clothes/jewelry without close examination. she does not carry them if she has to infiltrate some of the particularly well guarded places, but that's not something she does routinely. As you can guess, dropping all your magic and putting yourself at an enemy's mercy, hoping he won't look twice at yet another servant/clerk/whatever... it's insanely risky. it's not something you can do on a regular base and get away with (and in fact, she did get caught in the past. long story. with another party playing in the same campaign world in the past. i never gave her stats at the time though, using her basically as a plot device).
And if you do get caught in such a well defended place, you're unlikely to get away in any case. so, magic items won't help you there. your best bet is to be taken prisoner and be used in a prisoner exhcange, or to be killed and then be resurrected by your side afterwards. In any case, you'd want to not have magic items with you, to deny your enemy precious loot.


If the problem are the magic auras why not using nystul magic as a wand for example? If inserted in an holding bag it would be not so difficult to trick people in thinking you don't have any magic item except in the rarest situation where identify is casted , so like never as is not so much used by guards (and I only know two ways to give an identify effect in one minute without considering spell like abilities and the same) Or if we want to be able to withstand for many days eternal wands can be used but these would require spell casting
it depends on her target. if she's infiltrating a place with just some detect magic as security, yes, she can do that. in fact, since i decided to give her 7 levels of spymaster, she can mask her own items by herself for free.
the safest places, though, have countermeasures that would defeat nystul auras.

it's not like she has any aversion to using magic, or I have any aversion to solving problems with magic. it's a "right tool for the job" approach. sometimes magic makes your life easier, and sometimes it creates more problems than it solves.
she has gotten on her most important items a modified version of the "called" property that makes her able to dismiss them too. this way, she can summon some basic boosts if she needs them in a hurry, and she can dismiss them if they could betray her. her charisma buff is placed on her underwear; jokes aside, it means she can summon/unsummon it without giving outside clues. her other items, she normally does not wear them unless she expects to fight.