does this work? if so help me finish it

[newguydude1]

1. get a mirror mephit
2. dcsf supernatural transformation simulacrum onto it
3. grab assume supernatural ability: simulacrum
4. use a savage species ritual to change your race to something with alternate form or change shape (still looking for a creature)
5. use alternate form or change shape to transform into the specific mirror mephit
6. cast simulacrum as a supernatural ability forever and ever. the cl of the simulacrum su ability is your hd, not 8.

does this work? if so help me find a creature that can alternate form or change shape into a mirror mephit. is there a feat that adds a form to these abilities?




while assuming its form through a polymorph self spell or a similar effect.
does changelings minor shape change qualify as a "similiar effect" to polymorph?

i cant find the text that says alter self and polymorph cant let me turn into specific creatures. was it just my imagination? can these spells turn me into that specific mirror mephit?



alternatively, is there a way to turn the mephit into a humanoid? so i can use change shape or alternate form to become it?

[Gruftzwerg]

i cant find the text that says alter self and polymorph cant let me turn into specific creatures. was it just my imagination? can these spells turn me into that specific mirror mephit?


It getting late here, so I'll just concentrate on the easy part here for now.

The info you are looking for is hidden and not so obvious at first glance:

You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race.

Wild Shape isn't affected by this rule anymore since the ERRATA. They changed WS to be based on Alternate Form, which doesn't has this limitation. But you can't get flat outsider as wild shape form as far as I know (only limited access via Planar Shepherd and no Mirror Melphits available).

____________________

Alternatively you could try to play a Mirror Melphit as race and take either Urban Druid, Dragonfire Adapt, or Master of Many Forms to shape into human(oid)s.

[gogogome]

does changelings minor shape change qualify as a "similiar effect" to polymorph?

This is a resounding yes. From the Racial Emulation feat


When you use your minor change shape ability to assume the form of a humanoid creature

"assume the form". identical language word for word as the assume supernatural ability feat.

The problem here however is that minor change shape doesn't allow you to turn into a mirror mephit due to difference in size and body type.

You might be able to overcome this by casting shrink person on yourself and grabbing the Vestigial Wings feat from Fiendish Codex I. It gives you wings. You can't fly with them but that part is irrelevant. As far as I can tell from the pictures, mephits dont have tails. They are humanoids with wings and with the Vestigial Wings feat, you are now a humanoid with wings.

[newguydude1]

This is a resounding yes. From the Racial Emulation feat



"assume the form". identical language word for word as the assume supernatural ability feat.

The problem here however is that minor change shape doesn't allow you to turn into a mirror mephit due to difference in size and body type.

You might be able to overcome this by casting shrink person on yourself and grabbing the Vestigial Wings feat from Fiendish Codex I. It gives you wings. You can't fly with them but that part is irrelevant. As far as I can tell from the pictures, mephits dont have tails. They are humanoids with wings and with the Vestigial Wings feat, you are now a humanoid with wings.

holy crap! can someone else also confirm that this works?
1. be a changeling
2. grab the feat assume supernatural ability: simulacrum
3. grab the feat vestigial wings feat
4. get a mirror mephit
5. dcsf supernatural transformation simulacrum onto it
6. cast shrink person on yourself
7. use minor change shape to turn into a mirror mephit
8. cast simulacrum as a supernatural ability forever and ever. the cl of the simulacrum su ability is your hd, not 8.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

You learn to use a single supernatural ability of another kind of creature while assuming its form through a polymorph self spell or a similar effect.

Minor Change Shape emulates Disguise Self, not Polymorph, so no.



Furthermore, you always take the form of a typical specimen, not a specific individual. Just because one individual of that species has a different feat doesn't mean you get that when you take the form of a member of that species:

Rules of the Game, Polymorphing (Part Two) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040518a):
You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn't change the creature type or subtype.
When you choose a form to assume, you're limited to a typical specimen of that form.

The Rules of the Game Archive (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg) has eight articles of rules clarifications on polymorphing.

[gogogome]

Minor Change Shape emulates Disguise Self, not Polymorph, so no.



Furthermore, you always take the form of a typical specimen, not a specific individual. Just because one individual of that species has a different feat doesn't mean you get that when you take the form of a member of that species:

Rules of the Game, Polymorphing (Part Two) (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040518a):
You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn't change the creature type or subtype.
When you choose a form to assume, you're limited to a typical specimen of that form.

The Rules of the Game Archive (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/rg) has eight articles of rules clarifications on polymorphing.

Completely Incorrect.
First, the Minor Change Shape ability description directly says its not an illusory effect but an actual physical change.
Second, Minor Change Shape is a minor version of Change Shape which is a supernatural polymorph-like effect.
Third, I have provided direct RAW that says when you use Minor Change Shape to become another race, you are assuming its form. And Assume Supernatural Ability activates when you assume the form of a creature. Word for word identical.

There is no wiggle room here. This is as explicit as the rules get. If you want to be right you must prove that there are more than one definition for "assuming the form" in d&d 3.5 and that "assuming the form" in Assume Supernatural Ability and Racial Emulation are using different definitions.

Fourth, Minor Change Shape is not restricted to Alter Self or Polymorph's restrictions. It has its own restrictions and by its own restrictions, you can assume the form of specific creatures.

[Doctor Despair]

Completely Incorrect.
First, the Minor Change Shape ability description directly says its not an illusory effect but an actual physical change.
Second, Minor Change Shape is a minor version of Change Shape which is a supernatural polymorph-like effect.
Third, I have provided direct RAW that says when you use Minor Change Shape to become another race, you are assuming its form. And Assume Supernatural Ability activates when you assume the form of a creature. Word for word identical.



To be fair, the text does read "...while assuming its form through a polymorph self spell or a similar effect." With that said, while the name is Minor Change Shape and while it is a physical change rather than an illusory one, the ability is described as masking their appearance "as though using a disguise self spell." It uses that similar wording, but it does add a caveat, and I'm not saying it's conclusive you should read that it's more like disguise self than a polymorph effect, but it's certainly not conclusive RAW to treat it as a polymorph effect either, IMO.

[gogogome]

To be fair, the text does read "...while assuming its form through a polymorph self spell or a similar effect." With that said, while the name is Minor Change Shape and while it is a physical change rather than an illusory one, the ability is described as masking their appearance "as though using a disguise self spell." It uses that similar wording, but it does add a caveat, and I'm not saying it's conclusive you should read that it's more like disguise self than a polymorph effect, but it's certainly not conclusive RAW to treat it as a polymorph effect either, IMO.

It is conclusive due to the fact that its non-minor version, the normal Change Shape ability is a polymorph-like effect.
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm

Change Shape

A creature with this special quality has the ability to assume the appearance of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid), but retains most of its own physical qualities. A true seeing spell or ability reveals the creature’s natural form. A creature using change shape reverts to its natural form when killed, but separated body parts retain their shape. A creature cannot use change shape to take the form of a creature with a template. Changing shape results in the following changes to the creature:

The creature retains the type and subtype of its original form. It gains the size of its new form.
The creature loses the natural weapons and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).
The creature gains the natural weapons, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.
The creature retains all other special attacks and qualities of its original form, except for breath weapons and gaze attacks.
The creature retains the ability scores of its original form.
Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.
The creature retains any spellcasting ability it had in its original form, although it must be able to speak intelligibly to cast spells with verbal components and it must have humanlike hands to cast spells with somatic components.
The creature is effectively camouflaged as a creature of its new form, and gains a +10 bonus on Disguise checks if it uses this ability to create a disguise.
Any gear worn or carried by the creature that can’t be worn or carried in its new form instead falls to the ground in its space. If the creature changes size, any gear it wears or carries that can be worn or carried in its new form changes size to match the new size. (Nonhumanoid-shaped creatures can’t wear armor designed for humanoid-shaped creatures, and viceversa.) Gear returns to normal size if dropped.


The type of effect doesn't change between minor and major versions. Both Shadow Conjuration and Greater Shadow Conjuration are shadow conjuration effects. Both Shadow Evocation and Greater Shadow Evocation are shadow evocation effects. Both Teleport and Greater Teleport are teleport effects. Both Lesser Telepathic Bond and normal Telepathic Bond are the same type of effect.

You get the point.

The ability directly says it's not an illusory effect which disguise self is, but an actual supernatural physical changing effect, like Change Shape. It is conclusive no matter how you look at it.

[newguydude1]

To be fair, the text does read "...while assuming its form through a polymorph self spell or a similar effect." With that said, while the name is Minor Change Shape and while it is a physical change rather than an illusory one, the ability is described as masking their appearance "as though using a disguise self spell." It uses that similar wording, but it does add a caveat, and I'm not saying it's conclusive you should read that it's more like disguise self than a polymorph effect, but it's certainly not conclusive RAW to treat it as a polymorph effect either, IMO.

disguise self doesnt say it assumes a form.

every single polymorph effect says you assume a form. wild shape. polymorph. alter self. shape change. change shape. alternate form. polymorph any object.

so i think we can conclude "assuming a form" = similar to polymorph effect.

[JNAProductions]

But you'd need some way of assuming a SPECIFIC form, not just that of a typical member of the race.

[newguydude1]

But you'd need some way of assuming a SPECIFIC form, not just that of a typical member of the race.

yeah so the working theory here is that change shape and alternate form and minor change shape dont have that average member only restriction, therefore you can assume the form of specific creatures.

isnt that what doppelgangers do for a living? hell in age of worms the campaign directly encourages you to swap your pc out with a doppelganger for a while.

therefore doppelgangers and by extension changelings can turn into specific creatures with their (minor) change shape ability.

[JNAProductions]

yeah so the working theory here is that change shape and alternate form and minor change shape dont have that average member only restriction, therefore you can assume the form of specific creatures.

isnt that what doppelgangers do for a living? hell in age of worms the campaign directly encourages you to swap your pc out with a doppelganger for a while.

therefore doppelgangers and by extension changelings can turn into specific creatures with their (minor) change shape ability.

Does a doppelganger gain the feats of someone who they duplicate?
Do the rules say a dog can't play basketball?

[newguydude1]

Does a doppelganger gain the feats of someone who they duplicate?
Do the rules say a dog can't play basketball?

does a wizard gain the feats of someone they duplicate with polymorph?

what? what are you saying? gogogome quoted what the doppelganger gets from assuming the form of a specific creature.

dog? basketball? wtf? are you saying if the rules dont say you can, you cant? well the rules say you can assume the form of a creature with the same size and body type as you. end of restriction. specific creatures that fall under these restrictions are fair game.

please be more clear what you are saying.

[Doctor Despair]

does a wizard gain the feats of someone they duplicate with polymorph?

what? what are you saying? gogogome quoted what the doppelganger gets from assuming the form of a specific creature.

dog? basketball? wtf? are you saying if the rules dont say you can, you cant? well the rules say you can assume the form of a creature with the same size and body type as you. end of restriction. specific creatures that fall under these restrictions are fair game.

please be more clear what you are saying.

JNA is correctly saying that you would not gain the feats of someone you used Minor Shape Change to emulate, as you are only changing your appearance to take their form (as of disguise self) rather than using extraordinary wildshape or something similar that might grant feats. I can't recall from upthread, but does this trick depend on you gaining access to the feats of the creature you are emulating? At best, you'd gain a supernatural ability (using Assume Supernatural Ability) if Minor Change Shape qualified as a polymorph effect.

[JNAProductions]

JNA is correctly saying that you would not gain the feats of someone you used Minor Shape Change to emulate, as you are only changing your appearance to take their form (as of disguise self) rather than using extraordinary wildshape or something similar that might grant feats. I can't recall from upthread, but does this trick depend on you gaining access to the feats of the creature you are emulating? At best, you'd gain a supernatural ability (using Assume Supernatural Ability) if Minor Change Shape qualified as a polymorph effect.

Yeah. He's trying to get Simulacrum as a Supernatural ability on a Mirror Mephit, then become said Mephit.

[newguydude1]

JNA is correctly saying that you would not gain the feats of someone you used Minor Shape Change to emulate, as you are only changing your appearance to take their form (as of disguise self) rather than using extraordinary wildshape or something similar that might grant feats. I can't recall from upthread, but does this trick depend on you gaining access to the feats of the creature you are emulating? At best, you'd gain a supernatural ability (using Assume Supernatural Ability) if Minor Change Shape qualified as a polymorph effect.

i dont need to get the feat of the form im assuming. im using my own feat assume supernatural ability simulacrum to gain a su ability, not a feat.

why are you guys talking about feats? i know you dont get any feats from the assumed form from any creature. why are we talking about gaining feats?

[Gruftzwerg]

But you'd need some way of assuming a SPECIFIC form, not just that of a typical member of the race.
Disguise Self doesn't have the limitation that the "target form" has, to be the typical member of the race. Only Alter Self and the related Spells (e.g Polymorph and Shapechange) are affected. Disguise Self is not affected by that rule. I have quoted the Alter Self rule text in my previous post already.


It is conclusive due to the fact that its non-minor version, the normal Change Shape ability is a polymorph-like effect.
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm


The type of effect doesn't change between minor and major versions. Both Shadow Conjuration and Greater Shadow Conjuration are shadow conjuration effects. Both Shadow Evocation and Greater Shadow Evocation are shadow evocation effects. Both Teleport and Greater Teleport are teleport effects. Both Lesser Telepathic Bond and normal Telepathic Bond are the same type of effect.

You get the point.

The ability directly says it's not an illusory effect which disguise self is, but an actual supernatural physical changing effect, like Change Shape. It is conclusive no matter how you look at it.
Minor Change Shape is a non illusionary Disguise Self transmutation effect. But it isn't a polymorph effect, since it doesn't fulfill any of the things that resembel an explicit polymorph effect.

Polymorph

Magic can cause creatures and characters to change their shapes—sometimes against their will, but usually to gain an advantage. Polymorphed creatures retain their own minds but have new physical forms.

The polymorph spell defines the general polymorph effect.

Unless stated otherwise, creatures can polymorph into forms of the same type or into an aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin form. Most spells and abilities that grant the ability to polymorph place a cap on the Hit Dice of the form taken.

Polymorphed creatures gain the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution of their new forms, as well as size, extraordinary special attacks, movement capabilities (to a maximum of 120 feet for flying and 60 for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons, racial skill bonuses, and other gross physical qualities such as appearance and number of limbs. They retain their original class and level, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, hit points, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and alignment.

Creatures who polymorph keep their worn or held equipment if the new form is capable of wearing or holding it. Otherwise, it melds with the new form and ceases to function for the duration of the polymorph.

"The Polymorph spell defines the Polymorph effect" excludes abilities based on Disguise Self.

Assume Supernatural ability refers to "Polymorph self or similar effect" which is 3.0 and was converted to "Polymorph". Again a no for the Minor Change Shape ability of Changelings since it is based on the weaker Disguise Self and not on a "Polymorph" spell. To give another example, Alter Self wouldn't work either, since it is also weaker than a Polymorph spell and doesn't refer to Polymorph in any kind.

Finally, the changelings Minor Change Shape doesn't let you change your body type which would be necessary to change into a mirror melphit (due to its wings).

[Doctor Despair]

Yeah. He's trying to get Simulacrum as a Supernatural ability on a Mirror Mephit, then become said Mephit.

Ah, I see, now that I'm taking a closer look.


holy crap! can someone else also confirm that this works?
1. be a changeling
2. grab the feat assume supernatural ability: simulacrum
3. grab the feat vestigial wings feat
4. get a mirror mephit
5. dcsf supernatural transformation simulacrum onto it
6. cast shrink person on yourself
7. use minor change shape to turn into a mirror mephit
8. cast simulacrum as a supernatural ability forever and ever. the cl of the simulacrum su ability is your hd, not 8.

So you take the form of the specific creature which, due to dcsf, now has a supernatural ability named "simalacrum." As you have Assume Supernatural Ability, you should gain it. That's fun.

I suppose the stumbling blocks to that are:

* Is Minor Change Shape a polymorph effect by merit of Change Shape being a polymorph effect (I'm taking your word that it is, as the Change Shape entry doesn't have a tag or something to that effect) and by merit of Racial Emulation using the language "assume the form of a humanoid?"

* If Minor Change Shape is a polymorph effect, does it let you assume the form of a specific creature?

As quoted earlier, polymorph effects cause you to take the form of an average member of the race (which you can then use as part of a disguise for a +10 modifier). As Changelings get the same +10 bonus, it would be as effective mechanically as becoming an average member of the race, so it seems unlikely it would make you look like a specific member of the race on its own. This contradicts the reference to disguise self, however, which definitely can let you look like a specific person.

If Minor Change Shape is a polymorph effect, then the Changeling would be forced to assume the shape of an average member of the race, then use it as part of a disguise check for that +10. This does match the language of the ability, so I suspect, if it is a polymorph effect, it is the correct reading based on discussion thusfar:


When using this ability to create a disguise, a changeling receives a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks.

With that said, you also gain the ability to modify your appearance further than that, as of a disguise self spell. This must be separate from the process of "assuming the form" of a creature for Minor Shape Change to remain a polymorph effect. That does seem a little weird (applying two halves of one ability separately), but it would directly go against how polymorph effects work for the disguise self to be part of the polymorph.

On the other hand, we can avoid that weird rules instance if Minor Change Shape is not a polymorph effect. If we don't make the leap to say it is a polymorph effect ("assume the form" could just be an instance of a writer using similar language rather than a secret code, and Minor Change Shape could just be categorically different than Change Shape), then the whole ability can apply at once as an infinite duration, supernatural, physical Disguise Self.

Edit:


Disguise Self doesn't have the limitation that the "target form" has, to be the typical member of the race. Only Alter Self and the related Spells (e.g Polymorph and Shapechange) are affected. Disguise Self is not affected by that rule. I have quoted the Alter Self rule text in my previous post already.


Minor Change Shape is a non illusionary Disguise Self transmutation effect. But it isn't a polymorph effect, since it doesn't fulfill any of the things that resembel an explicit polymorph effect.

"The Polymorph spell defines the Polymorph effect" excludes abilities based on Disguise Self.

Assume Supernatural ability refers to "Polymorph self or similar effect" which is 3.0 and was converted to "Polymorph". Again a no for the Minor Change Shape ability of Changelings since it is based on the weaker Disguise Self and not on a "Polymorph" spell. To give another example, Alter Self wouldn't work either, since it is also weaker than a Polymorph spell and doesn't refer to Polymorph in any kind.

Finally, the changelings Minor Change Shape doesn't let you change your body type which would be necessary to change into a mirror melphit (due to its wings).

Excellent points, Gruftz, but didn't he include some way to get his own physical wings before initiating the trick so as to have a similar body type to the Mephit?

[newguydude1]

Ah, I see, now that I'm taking a closer look.



So you take the form of the specific creature which, due to dcsf, now has a supernatural ability named "simalacrum." As you have Assume Supernatural Ability, you should gain it. That's fun.

I suppose the stumbling blocks to that are:

* Is Minor Change Shape a polymorph effect by merit of Change Shape being a polymorph effect (I'm taking your word that it is, as the Change Shape entry doesn't have a tag or something to that effect) and by merit of Racial Emulation using the language "assume the form of a humanoid?"

* If Minor Change Shape is a polymorph effect, does it let you assume the form of a specific creature?

As quoted earlier, polymorph effects cause you to take the form of an average member of the race (which you can then use as part of a disguise for a +10 modifier). As Changelings get the same +10 bonus, it would be as effective mechanically as becoming an average member of the race, so it seems unlikely it would make you look like a specific member of the race on its own. This contradicts the reference to disguise self, however, which definitely can let you look like a specific person.

If Minor Change Shape is a polymorph effect, then the Changeling would be forced to assume the shape of an average member of the race, then use it as part of a disguise check for that +10. This does match the language of the ability, so I suspect, if it is a polymorph effect, it is the correct reading based on discussion thusfar:



With that said, you also gain the ability to modify your appearance further than that, as of a disguise self spell. This must be separate from the process of "assuming the form" of a creature for Minor Shape Change to remain a polymorph effect. That does seem a little weird (applying two halves of one ability separately), but it would directly go against how polymorph effects work for the disguise self to be part of the polymorph.

On the other hand, we can avoid that weird rules instance if Minor Change Shape is not a polymorph effect. If we don't make the leap to say it is a polymorph effect ("assume the form" could just be an instance of a writer using similar language rather than a secret code, and Minor Change Shape could just be categorically different than Change Shape), then the whole ability can apply at once as an infinite duration, supernatural Disguise Self.

were not looking for a polymorph effect. were looking for a similar effect to polymorph.
wild shape is not a polymorph effect.
change shape is not a polymorph effect.
alternate form is not a polymorph effect.
but theyre all similar to polymorph effect

member of average race restriction doesnt apply to wild shape because wildshape is not a polymorph effect nor does it cite alter self in anyway.
member of average race restriction doesnt apply to change shape because change shape is not a polymorph effect nor does it cite alter self in anyway.
member of average race restriction doesnt apply to alternate form because alternate form is not a polymorph effect nor does it cite alter self in anyway.

sorry for repeating so much but i just want to make it clear.

also i disagree with your initial assertion. heres the quote

You learn to use a single supernatural ability of another kind of creature while assuming its form through a polymorph self spell or a similar effect.
you just need to assume the form with something like polymorph. something that changes your form. not polymorph but a form changing effect.
minor change shape is a form changing effect because it lets you "assume the form" of a creature. "assuming the form" of a creature is a d&d term used exclusively for polymorph-like effects. i challenge you to find one instance in all of d&d where an illusion spell or something like that uses the phrase "assume the form" or "assumed form" or something like that.

[gogogome]

also i disagree with your initial assertion. heres the quote

you just need to assume the form with something like polymorph. something that changes your form. not polymorph but a form changing effect.
minor change shape is a form changing effect because it lets you "assume the form" of a creature. "assuming the form" of a creature is a d&d term used exclusively for polymorph-like effects. i challenge you to find one instance in all of d&d where an illusion spell or something like that uses the phrase "assume the form" or "assumed form" or something like that.

Just to emphasize this point, Polymorph is an example. NOT a requirement. The requirement is an effect that lets you assume the form of creatures. NOT polymorph.

[newguydude1]

Just to emphasize this point, Polymorph is an example. NOT a requirement. The requirement is an effect that lets you assume the form of creatures. NOT polymorph.

yeah that was what i was trying to say but couldnt. i was editing and editing and it still didnt came up right. thanks man your really helping me a lot in this thread.

[Doctor Despair]

Just to emphasize this point, Polymorph is an example. NOT a requirement. The requirement is an effect that lets you assume the form of creatures. NOT polymorph.

The ability to use a polymorph self spell or similar effect is a prerequisite though. The caveat that you must use one of those effects implies that there are means to assume the form of something that are NOT polymorph self spells or similar effects. Minor Shape Change may be one of those effects; it's entirely up to DM fiat. That's why I focused on trying to pin it down as a polymorph effect, as that would make a much stronger argument that it should be considered a similar effect. It's certainly not a polymorph self spell, after all.

Edit:

Just for clarification, the ability could have read:


You learn to use a single supernatural ability of another kind of creature while assuming its form.

Instead, they wrote:


You learn to use a single supernatural ability of another kind of creature while assuming its form through a polymorph self spell or a similar effect.

To ignore the second half of the sentence and just conclude "All abilities that change your shape qualify!" would be a mistake in my opinion.

[Gruftzwerg]

were not looking for a polymorph effect. were looking for a similar effect to polymorph.
wild shape is not a polymorph effect.
change shape is not a polymorph effect.
alternate form is not a polymorph effect.
but theyre all similar to polymorph effect
.....
..


you just need to assume the form with something like polymorph. something that changes your form. not polymorph but a form changing effect.
minor change shape is a form changing effect because it lets you "assume the form" of a creature. "assuming the form" of a creature is a d&d term used exclusively for polymorph-like effects. i challenge you to find one instance in all of d&d where an illusion spell or something like that uses the phrase "assume the form" or "assumed form" or something like that.

"polymorph self spell or a similar effect" (3.0) = "polymorph effect" in 3.5

and as quoted in my previous post, Minor Change Shape doesn't qualify as polymorph effect in 3.5.

Sorry I hate to say it, but it doesn't work out by RAW. I have spent already countless hours on similar ideas with Minor Change Shape, but it is almost always a dead end. Sole exception is Warshaper (prc), which works perfect with it.

[gogogome]

The ability to use a polymorph self spell or similar effect is a prerequisite though. The caveat that you must use one of those effects implies that there are means to assume the form of something that are NOT polymorph self spells or similar effects. Minor Shape Change may be one of those effects; it's entirely up to DM fiat. That's why I focused on trying to pin it down as a polymorph effect, as that would make a much stronger argument that it should be considered a similar effect. It's certainly not a polymorph self spell, after all.

Why don't we take a look at a different part of the feat description?

Prerequisite
WIS 13, ability to assume a new form magically,

From here we can definitely conclude that
"similar effect" = "assume a new form magically"
Minor Change Shape magically lets you assume a new form.
Therefore you can use Assume Supernatural Ability with Minor Change Shape.

Polymorph is nothing but an example. It is in no way a requirement of the feat working.


"polymorph self spell or a similar effect" (3.0) = "polymorph effect" in 3.5

and as quoted in my previous post, Minor Change Shape doesn't qualify as polymorph effect in 3.5.

Sorry I hate to say it, but it doesn't work out by RAW. I have spent already countless hours on similar ideas with Minor Change Shape, but it is almost always a dead end. Sole exception is Warshaper (prc), which works perfect with it.

You are incorrect. See above.

[JNAProductions]

You learn to use a single supernatural ability of another kind of creature while assuming its form through a polymorph self spell or a similar effect. The saving throw DC against this ability is based on your ability scores, not those of a standard creature of the kind whose form you've assumed. For a breath weapon, the saving throw DC is 10 + your Constitution modifier + 1/2 your Hit Dice (rounded down). For all other supernatural abilities, the saving throw (if any) DC is 10 + your Charisma modifier + 1/2 your Hit Dice (rounded down). If a creature, such as an undead, has no Constitution score, use its Charisma modifier or its Constitution modifier (+0 for a nonability), whichever is higher, to determine the save DC. Using this alien ability is disorienting. You take a -2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. Additionally, in a stressful or demanding situation (such as combat), you must succeed on a Will save (DC 19) or be unable to use the ability.

There's more text, you know.

[gogogome]

There's more text, you know.

Let me quote more, I don't know if I can quote the whole thing because of copyright though.


You learn to use a supernatural ability of an assumed form.

Prerequisite
WIS 13, ability to assume a new form magically,

Required for
Improved Assume Supernatural Ability (SS) ,

Benefit
You learn to use a single supernatural ability of another kind of creature while assuming its form through a polymorph self spell or a similar effect. The saving throw DC against this ability is based on your ability scores, not those of a standard creature of the kind whose form you've assumed. For a breath weapon, the saving throw DC is 10 + your Constitution modifier + 1/2 your Hit Dice (rounded down). For all other supernatural abilities, the saving throw (if any) DC is 10 + your Charisma modifier + 1/2 your Hit Dice (rounded down). If a creature, such as an undead, has no Constitution score, use its Charisma modifier or its Constitution modifier (+0 for a nonability), whichever is higher, to determine the save DC. Using this alien ability is disorienting. You take a -2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. Additionally, in a stressful or demanding situation (such as combat), you must succeed on a Will save (DC 19) or be unable to use the ability.

From this, you guys are saying polymorph, instead of being an example of a way to assume a new form magically, is instead a mandatory requirement of the feat working. Do you see the problem with your guys' interpretation here?

Assuming a new form magically is the sole requirement of the feat working.

[Doctor Despair]

Why don't we take a look at a different part of the feat description?


From here we can definitely conclude that
"similar effect" = "assume a new form magically"
Minor Change Shape magically lets you assume a new form.
Therefore you can use Assume Supernatural Ability with Minor Change Shape.

Polymorph is nothing but an example. It is in no way a requirement of the feat working.



That's a bit of a leap. Lots of feats have prerequisites that are not necessarily mechanically tied to their effect. One could as easily argue that because Polymorph Self is given as the solitary example, that "assume a new form magically" = "use a polymorph self spell or similar effect." Instead, let's make a good-faith effort to read the text in earnest: any shape-changing magic qualifies you, and "polymorph self spell" isn't fluff text that we can throw out because it's inconvenient.



There's more text, you know.

Shade, haha. Definitely agree with the sentiment though; lots of strategies get exponentially better if you cherry pick which lines of the text you want to use and which lines you want to throw out as fluff.

Edit:



From this, you guys are saying polymorph, instead of being an example of a way to assume a new form magically, is instead a mandatory requirement of the feat working. Do you see the problem with your guys' interpretation here?

Assuming a new form magically is the sole requirement of the feat working.

You are right that the feat can be selected if you have any means of assuming a new form magically; prerequisites are the means to select a feat, after all. I don't think you are necessarily correct that the feat can be used if your only means of assuming a new form are not polymorph-like effects, however. I don't think you are necessarily correct that Minor Change Shape is a polymorph-like effect.

[gogogome]

That's a bit of a leap. Lots of feats have prerequisites that are not necessarily mechanically tied to their effect. One could as easily argue that because Polymorph Self is given as the solitary example, that "assume a new form magically" = "use a polymorph self spell or similar effect." Instead, let's make a good-faith effort to read the text in earnest: any shape-changing magic qualifies you, and "polymorph self spell" isn't fluff text that we can throw out because it's inconvenient.




Shade, haha. Definitely agree with the sentiment though; lots of strategies get exponentially better if you cherry pick which lines of the text you want to use and which lines you want to throw out as fluff.

Edit:



You are right that the feat can be selected if you have any means of assuming a new form magically; prerequisites are the means to select a feat, after all. I don't think you are necessarily correct that the feat can be used if your only means of assuming a new form are not polymorph-like effects, however. I don't think you are necessarily correct that Minor Change Shape is a polymorph-like effect.

I'm having trouble understanding your argument.

Polymorph is a spell that lets you assume a new form magically.
A similar effect to Polymorph is something that lets you assume a new form magically.
Minor Change Shape is something that lets you assume a new form magically.

Where are you getting that polymorph is a mandatory requirement? Are you saying you can't use Wild Shape with Assume Supernatural Ability?

[JNAProductions]

I'm having trouble understanding your argument.

Polymorph is a spell that lets you assume a new form magically.
A similar effect to Polymorph is something that lets you assume a new form magically.
Minor Change Shape is something that lets you assume a new form magically.

Where are you getting that polymorph is a mandatory requirement? Are you saying you can't use Wild Shape with Assume Supernatural Ability?

It could be read as requiring something of similar power to Polymorph. Since that's a 4th level spell, you could argue that anything less powerful doesn't work.

But really, the main thing I'd say is this: It's not 100% clearcut, it's not without ambiguity, it's not something I think the devs ever thought of... It's something that's gonna need a DM's judgement. If the DM thinks that it's cool and within the expected power, then go nuts. If not, then don't.

[Gruftzwerg]

Why don't we take a look at a different part of the feat description?


From here we can definitely conclude that
"similar effect" = "assume a new form magically"
Minor Change Shape magically lets you assume a new form.
Therefore you can use Assume Supernatural Ability with Minor Change Shape.

Polymorph is nothing but an example. It is in no way a requirement of the feat working.



You are incorrect. See above.
Sorry you are ignoring the 3.0 > 3.5 conversion rules and those include the things mentioned for polymorph. ASA refers to Polymorph effects for which Minor Change Shape doesn't qualify for. If you want a full RAW answer: you could take the feat since you qualify for the prerequisites, but you couldn't use it, since you never use a polymorph effect..

[gogogome]

It could be read as requiring something of similar power to Polymorph. Since that's a 4th level spell, you could argue that anything less powerful doesn't work.

But really, the main thing I'd say is this: It's not 100% clearcut, it's not without ambiguity, it's not something I think the devs ever thought of... It's something that's gonna need a DM's judgement. If the DM thinks that it's cool and within the expected power, then go nuts. If not, then don't.

Power? How is "power" measured for a transformation effect? What makes Alter Self less "powerful"? Is Baleful Polymorph similarly less "powerful"? Wild Shape is not a spell so how do you compare that with Polymorph? It is significantly more restricitve than Polymorph, so Assume Supernatural Ability doesn't work with Wild Shape either?

Transformation spells and magical effects have never been said to have any "power" level assigned to them.

So I disagree. Check out every single other Assume Supernatural Ability thread that has been ever made. Not a single person has ever brought up these made up "polymorph" and "power" restrictions in those threads. It is simply and solely mentioned here because we have people trying to get the conclusion they want, which is shutdown an exploit newguydude1 has found, without resorting to house rules. And I'm calling you all out on this.

It is without ambiguity. Reading it normally the feat description is very clear. As long as you physically assume the form of another creature with magic, you can use Assume Supernatural Ability to grab one Su abillity, chosen when you choose the feat. It doesn't matter whether its alter self, spider shape, innate racial transformation ability something like Lycanthropes, class features, etc.

If you change your form magically, and the form has the Su ability you chose with the feat, then this feat applies. There is no wiggle room.

[newguydude1]

Sorry you are ignoring the 3.0 > 3.5 conversion rules and those include the things mentioned for polymorph. ASA refers to Polymorph effects for which Minor Change Shape doesn't qualify for. If you want a full RAW answer: you could take the feat since you qualify for the prerequisites, but you couldn't use it, since you never use a polymorph effect..

nope.

polymorph spell
similar effect

there is no such thing as "polymorph effect". it doesnt exist in the glossary. it doesnt exist in any feat class or spell description. you made the word up.

you cant give a full raw answer if you make up words.

[Doctor Despair]

If you change your form magically, and the form has the Su ability you chose with the feat, then this feat applies. There is no wiggle room.

So the DM saying "Minor Change Shape is not a similar effect to the Polymorph Self spell because it is based on Disguise Self (modified to be physical) rather than Polymorph" is not wiggle-room? Making incorrect absolute statements does have the intended effect of discouraging discussion, but does not make you appear more convincing or correct.

[Gruftzwerg]

nope.

polymorph spell
similar effect

there is no such thing as "polymorph effect". it doesnt exist in the glossary. it doesnt exist in any feat class or spell description. you made the word up.

you cant give a full raw answer if you make up words.

Really? (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm):

The polymorph spell defines the general polymorph effect.
And as said, you are ignoring the 3.0 to 3.5 conversion which changed Polymorph self like effects into Polymorph like effects. Minor Change Shape doesn't qualify for it at all.

[gogogome]

So the DM saying "Minor Change Shape is not a similar effect to the Polymorph Self spell because it is based on Disguise Self (modified to be physical) rather than Polymorph" is not wiggle-room?

Of course.

I understand if a DM says no before he sees the Racial Emulation feat. I would've ruled the exact same way. But after seeing that feat description, and the fact that Doppelgangers Change Shape is a polymorph-like effect, I'd say only non-RAW DMs would say Minor Change Shape doesn't work with Assume Supernatural Ability.


This spell functions like alter self, except that you change the willing subject into another form of living creature. The new form may be of the same type as the subject or any of the following types: aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin. The assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level. You can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form. The subject’s creature type and subtype (if any) change to match the new form.

[quote=Racial Emulation]When you use your minor change shape ability to assume the form of a humanoid creature, you can also emulate any of that humanoid's subtypes. Though you do not gain any of the humanoid's traits, you are considered to be a member of that race for all other purposes (allowing you to use magic items or spells keyed to race, for example). You can also ignore the normal penalty on Disguise checks when disguising yourself as a different race (see the Disguise skill description, page 72 of the Player's Handbook). You can only emulate one race at a time, and you always retain the shapechanger subtype.


You learn to use a supernatural ability of an assumed form.
Prerequisite
WIS 13, ability to assume a new form magically,

Benefit
You learn to use a single supernatural ability of another kind of creature while assuming its form through a polymorph self spell or a similar effect.

The DM that's saying this is completely divesting and extracting the phrase "polymorph self spell or a similar effect." from the entire feat description, completely ignoring the mechanical term "assuming the form", completely ignoring the fact that only polymorph-like effects ever use the term "assume the form", completely ignroing the fact Minor Change Shape is explcitly described to be "assuming a form", makes up a term called "polymorph effect", all so he can intentionally say "similar effect" means "polymorph effect" and nothing else and therefore this doesn't work.

This isn't someone who is doing RAW. This is someone trying to pass his house rule off as RAW.

[Doctor Despair]

completely ignoring the mechanical term "assuming the form", completely ignoring the fact that only polymorph-like effects ever use the term "assume the form", completely ignroing the fact Minor Change Shape is explcitly described to be "assuming a form",

So now we're arguing that it is a polymorph-like effect, right? I just want to be clear.

If that's the case, it means that you assume the form of an average member of the race and also gain the benefits of a physical disguise self effect, which means this shouldn't work, as you haven't assumed the form of that specific mirror mephit -- you assumed the form of an average mirror mephit, and made yourself look like the specific one as of a disguise self spell.

[gogogome]

So now we're arguing that it is a polymorph-like effect, right? I just want to be clear.

No.
Assume Supernatural Ability requires you to magically assume a new form.
Polymorph lets you magically assume a new form.
Minor Change Shape lets you magically assume a new form.

So Minor Change Shape and Polymorph are similar effects. So in that sense Minor Change Shape is polymorph-like because they are similar effects. But I'm not saying Minor Change Shape is a polymorph. Because its not. Just like Wild Shape is not.


If that's the case, it means that you assume the form of an average member of the race and also gain the benefits of a physical disguise self effect, which means this shouldn't work, as you haven't assumed the form of that specific mirror mephit -- you assumed the form of an average mirror mephit, and made yourself look like the specific one as of a disguise self spell.

Minor Change Shape is NOT a polymorph effect. So none of polymorph's restrictions apply. Just like Wild Shape.
Minor Change Shape is a magical effect that lets you assume a form so assume supernatural ability works with it.

[Doctor Despair]

No.
Assume Supernatural Ability requires you to magically assume a new form.
Polymorph lets you magically assume a new form.
Minor Change Shape lets you magically assume a new form.


No one's denying you're eligible to select the feat; we're debating whether or not you are eligible to use the feat. Please don't conflate the two.



So Minor Change Shape and Polymorph are similar effects. So in that sense Minor Change Shape is polymorph-like because they are similar effects. But I'm not saying Minor Change Shape is a polymorph. Because its not. Just like Wild Shape is not.


Polymorph changes your appearance. Disguise Self changes your appearance. Ergo, they are similar effects. So in that sense, Disguise Self is polymorph-like because they are similar effects. But I'm not saying Disguise Self is a polymorph. Because it's not. Just like Wild Shape is not.

See, we're back where we started on whether or not the DM thinks they are "similar effects." Similar effects is entirely up to DM fiat.



Minor Change Shape is NOT a polymorph effect. So none of polymorph's restrictions apply. Just like Wild Shape.
Minor Change Shape is a magical effect that lets you assume a form so assume supernatural ability works with it.

So now we're back to Gruftzwerg's point: it really is probably meant to be from the polymorph school of effects.

Whether or not Wild Shape should qualify is a whole different conversation, so let's not get side-tracked. Suffice to say ASA is a 3.0 feat, and when it was written, Wild Shape was a polymorph-like effect, so DM fiat is much more likely to err in favor of Wild Shape being a "similar effect" than Minor Change Shape (which is explicitly based off of Disguise Self, a decidedly not polymorph-like effect), but Wild Shape qualifying or not qualifying for ASA does not confer nor deny qualification to Minor Change Shape.

[gogogome]

So now we're back to Gruftzwerg's point: it really is probably meant to be from the polymorph school of effects.

Whether or not Wild Shape should qualify is a whole different conversation, so let's not get side-tracked. Suffice to say ASA is a 3.0 feat, and when it was written, Wild Shape was a polymorph-like effect, so DM fiat is much more likely to err in favor of Wild Shape being a "similar effect" than Minor Change Shape (which is explicitly based off of Disguise Self, a decidedly not polymorph-like effect), but Wild Shape qualifying or not qualifying for ASA does not confer nor deny qualification to Minor Change Shape.

Nope.
Wild Shape, Alternate Form, Change Shape, Minor Change Shape, Alter Shape, and all the other transformation stuff are all in the same category as "magically assuming a new form without being a polymorph effect". Don't try to split them apart and give Wild Shape special treatment because it destroys your argument.

Do you have a 3.0 phb handy? I guarantee you Wild Shape does not reference polymorph. Not that it matters


No one's denying you're eligible to select the feat; we're debating whether or not you are eligible to use the feat. Please don't conflate the two.

Nope.
"similar effect" = assuming a new form magically.
If you cannot accept that then we're done here.


See, we're back where we started on whether or not the DM thinks they are "similar effects." Similar effects is entirely up to DM fiat.

Nope.
"similar effect" = assuming a new form magically.
A DM using his fiat to defy RAW is irrelevant.


Lets end this circle

Unless you can prove "similar effect" = polymorph subschool from PHBII, and that Wild Shape gets to be an exception because.... you have a copy of 3.0 PHB that says Wild Shape is a polymorph? and that racial abilities, class features, and all that stuff don't work with assume supernatural ability, then we're done. Agree to disagree.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Regardless of whether or not Minor Change Shape or other effects do or don't enable Assume Supernatural Ability, one thing is being overlooked.

1. Assume Supernatural Ability says it only works when you use Polymorph or similar effects. Thus the rules around Polymorph and similar effects always apply if you're going to benefit from Assume Supernatural Ability.

2. The Rules of the Game article I linked says Polymorph and similar effects can only be used to take the form of a typical specimen, not a specific individual. If you're going to benefit from Assume Supernatural Ability, you must abide by this rule.

[newguydude1]

i showed this thread to my dm.
my dm is raw-or-die.

and he told me he laughed at most of the things being said here. especially the part about trying to separate "assume form" and "polymorph" in the same sentence let alone the rest of the feat description so you can say "similar effect" means polymorph subschool isntead of assuming forms magically.

so itd be really helpful if you guys take that to a new thread instead of bloating this one. make a thread called "does similar effects in assume supernatural ability feat description require the polymorph subschool" and go there thanks.


Regardless of whether or not Minor Change Shape or other effects do or don't enable Assume Supernatural Ability, one thing is being overlooked.

1. Assume Supernatural Ability says it only works when you use Polymorph or similar effects. Thus the rules around Polymorph and similar effects always apply if you're going to benefit from Assume Supernatural Ability.

please make the new thread and discuss it there. my dm ruled similar effects refers to magically assuming a new form not polymorph subschool.


2. The Rules of the Game article I linked says Polymorph and similar effects can only be used to take the form of a typical specimen, not a specific individual. If you're going to benefit from Assume Supernatural Ability, you must abide by this rule.

rules of the game articles arent raw and last time i tried to use that i got chewed up by people on this forum for trying to pass rules of the game off as raw.
also minor change shape is not a polymorph effect so none of polymorph subschools restrictions apply.

[Doctor Despair]

I'm glad your DM ruled in your favor. As I've said, it's vague enough that it's definitely up to DM fiat, so it's nice that you had a cooperative DM. It certainly won't be the most broken thing you can do with dark chaos feat shuffling.

[gogogome]

Made the thread:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?625660-Does-Assume-Supernatural-Ability-only-work-with-polymorph&p=24889013

Let me know if I misrepresented your side of the argument. I'll change it.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

i showed this thread to my dm.
my dm is raw-or-die.

and he told me he laughed at most of the things being said here. especially the part about trying to separate "assume form" and "polymorph" in the same sentence let alone the rest of the feat description so you can say "similar effect" means polymorph subschool isntead of assuming forms magically.

so itd be really helpful if you guys take that to a new thread instead of bloating this one. make a thread called "does similar effects in assume supernatural ability feat description require the polymorph subschool" and go there thanks.

please make the new thread and discuss it there. my dm ruled similar effects refers to magically assuming a new form not polymorph subschool.

rules of the game articles arent raw and last time i tried to use that i got chewed up by people on this forum for trying to pass rules of the game off as raw.
also minor change shape is not a polymorph effect so none of polymorph subschools restrictions apply.

The Rules Compendium p122 agrees with the relevant portion of the Rules of the Game article I linked:
"A spell of the polymorph subschool changes the target’s form from one shape to another. Unless otherwise noted in the spell’s description, the target of a polymorph spell takes on all the statistics and special abilities of an average member of the assumed form in place of its own except as follows."

Furthermore, that says the Polymorph subschool changes the target's form from one shape to another. Minor Change Shape doesn't give you the form of another creature, and it can't even change your shape, it only alters your appearance as well as size.

Minor Change Shape is closer to Alter Self than it is to Polymorph, as neither gives you any of the special abilities of the assumed form. If Assume Supernatural Ability only works with an effect that's capable of granting you the abilities of the assumed form, then it doesn't work with Minor Change Shape.

Just including this here for anyone who finds this thread in the future.

[newguydude1]

If Assume Supernatural Ability only works with an effect that's capable of granting you the abilities of the assumed form, then it doesn't work with Minor Change Shape.

it doesn't only work with an effect that's capable of granting you the abilities of the assumed form.

anyways new thread please go there thanks.


I'm glad your DM ruled in your favor. As I've said, it's vague enough that it's definitely up to DM fiat, so it's nice that you had a cooperative DM. It certainly won't be the most broken thing you can do with dark chaos feat shuffling.

dcfs he said while technically i can change out my racial bonus feats and proficiencies, he banned that. the only thing i can do with dcfs is change out normal feats which makes it much worse than psychic reformation so i dont think its broken.

i dont think its vague, i think gogogome hit it on the mark, but new thread thanks.

anyways i appreciate you responding to my threads even if i dont agree with some of your opinions. dont think i didnt notice you posting in almost all the threads i made.

[gogogome]

The Rules Compendium p122 agrees with the relevant portion of the Rules of the Game article I linked:
...
Just including this here for anyone who finds this thread in the future.

I'll do the same.

Rules Compendium p.24-26 has a section about Changing Forms, and lumps Alternate Form, Change Shape, Alter self, Animal Shapes, Baleful Polymorph, Polymorph, Shapechange, A Thousand Faces, and Wild Shape all together under the same category of effects.

A Thousand Faces is identical to Minor Change Shape.

Therefore even by Rules Compendium Assume Supernatural Ability works with Minor Change Shape. I posted this on the other thread as well.


If Assume Supernatural Ability only works with an effect that's capable of granting you the abilities of the assumed form, then it doesn't work with Minor Change Shape.
I have no idea where you got this from.

[InvisibleBison]

Assume Supernatural Ability lets you gain an ability of "another kind of creature". Does a single mephit with a non-standard feat selection constitute a kind of creature?