Rules Lawyer

[sayaijin]

So my DM is fairly new to 5e. Most of his experience is with previous editions. He often forgets how abilities work, and I don't want to be the "akchually" guy all the time.

For instance, he will often give spell casting mod bonus to cantrips that don't call for it. The warlock without agonizing blast gets it on Eldritch blast, the Bard gets it on vicious mockery.

Since we're currently on Roll20, I just send him private messages when I feel like it's making an actual difference in game play.

How much rules lawyering would you do in this situation?

[DwarfDM]

Seems like something you should discus out of game.

If it is his first time playing 5e it is to be expected that these types of mistakes are made. However I think the bard and warlock should also say that their spells don't work like that. So it isn't just the DM but also the players that don't correct their buffs.

[Kvess]

This sounds like a question for your particular DM! As a DM, I always found it helpful when there is a knowledgable player at the table who could walk newer players through how their abilities and spells work — but I can also see how that would be annoying or disruptive. Definitely ask if helping the other players out with their abilities would be welcome.

Being a new DM can be challenging. There is always a lot to remember and keep track of, and it can mean that they are not always 100% there to walk players through how their particular class features work. As a DM, you might have never encountered a character who is a Warlock, skim through their abilities or misremember details based on how things worked in previous editions.

Generally, when I think of a Rules Lawyer, it isn't someone who is trying to keep the game consistent; It's someone arguing for selective rulings that benefit them.

[Unoriginal]

So my DM is fairly new to 5e. Most of his experience is with previous editions. He often forgets how abilities work, and I don't want to be the "akchually" guy all the time.

For instance, he will often give spell casting mod bonus to cantrips that don't call for it. The warlock without agonizing blast gets it on Eldritch blast, the Bard gets it on vicious mockery.

Since we're currently on Roll20, I just send him private messages when I feel like it's making an actual difference in game play.

How much rules lawyering would you do in this situation?

Informing someone of what the text of the rule is isn't rule lawyering. Rule lawyering is if you argue that the DM should follow a specific interpretation of the rule rather than what the DM decides (including arguing for a specific interpretation before the DM has made the decision).

[Greywander]

I'd talk to your DM about this and see what they'd like you to do. I would think a new DM would appreciate having a knowledgeable player at the table who can remind them about the rules whenever they make a mistake or are unsure. In that role, your job would be to merely inform them what the rules say, and the DM would still have the freedom to override what the book says if they wish. That said, it's generally a good idea for a new DM to stick to the rules as written until they get more experience. Once they're more familiar with the rules and have some experience with actual play, then it makes more sense to start implementing some tweaks to the rules.

[sayaijin]

I forgot to mention that the players are all new to 5e also. I don't think any of them are taking advantage of the situation since I often have to remind them of their abilities too.

I guess I was curious if anyone else had experienced this, and how they handled it. I talk to the DM out of session, and occasionally in session with secret messages, but I don't want to detract from the story.

[Sigreid]

At the table I'm at it's always been "Go ahead and bring up if you think the DM is handling something wrong. Then go with his ruling. If there's serious disagreement about something, bring it up after the session or before the new one. Let everyone talk their thoughts on it and the next session the DM can say how things are going to be handled going forward when he DM's."

But then I'm the one most likely to change something to an older edition. For example, I like True Poloymorph to be a true, undispellable change once it becomes permanent, so I let people know that.

[Unoriginal]

At the table I'm at it's always been "Go ahead and bring up if you think the DM is handling something wrong. Then go with his ruling. If there's serious disagreement about something, bring it up after the session or before the new one. Let everyone talk their thoughts on it and the next session the DM can say how things are going to be handled going forward when he DM's."

That's pretty reasonable.


I forgot to mention that the players are all new to 5e also. I don't think any of them are taking advantage of the situation since I often have to remind them of their abilities too.

I guess I was curious if anyone else had experienced this, and how they handled it. I talk to the DM out of session, and occasionally in session with secret messages, but I don't want to detract from the story.

It's not just a story, though, it's a collaborative game, and if you feel something is important then it should be addressed.

[Naanomi]

I have a proclivity to rules-lawyering (in the 'that isn't RAW' sense, not the 'arguing interpretation or clear GM Fiat' sense). Some little things I address at the table, and keep an eye on people's tolerance for it. I also sometimes do an aftergame 'just so you know' conversation with the GM (over email/messenger usually) about things that I don't want to disrupt play for, but I suspect will come up again. Not disrupting the flow of play is a priority for many and I try to honor that

[Samayu]

Doesn't Roll20 handle the rolls for you, so there would be few wrong rolls?

[WaroftheCrans]

Doesn't Roll20 handle the rolls for you, so there would be few wrong rolls?

Only if you have characters properly set up and integrated into the system. If they're new, don't own the books on roll20, or don't want to go through the process, they're likely using just a simple /roll d20, or /roll d10+4 in the case of eldritch blast.

[Sol0botmate]

Just ask him if he wants to be corrected to not break rules and tell him that it's not you being mean but just trying to keep game fair for everyone.

Sadly I have to Rule Lawyer a lot because my DM is very good story teller but sadly he has no memory to all the rules, mechanics etc. It's just how it is. Games have rules for a reason. Mostly to make everyone who play feel fair.

[Kvess]

Only if you have characters properly set up and integrated into the system. If they're new, don't own the books on roll20, or don't want to go through the process, they're likely using just a simple /roll d20, or /roll d10+4 in the case of eldritch blast.

If you aren't already using it, I highly recommend a Chrome/Firefox extension called Beyond20 (https://beyond20.here-for-more.info), which allows players and the DM to roll from D&D Beyond character sheets in Roll20. It supports keyboard shortcuts for advantage/disadvantage, and it recognizes when a character sheet includes things like brutal critical. It saves a lot of time that you might otherwise spend building character sheets and NPCs in Roll20... which can be a little clunky.

[Xervous]

Doesn't Roll20 handle the rolls for you, so there would be few wrong rolls?

Roll20 is pretty anemic if you don’t throw money at it. And if you’re in a place to throw money at something nowadays there are better options emerging.

I strongly doubt the average GM has the time and patience to set up any elaborate macros for roll20. Standard chat message rolls (or baseline character sheet generated rolls) won’t have much / any minutiae like accounting for a simple +1 from bless without the player manually accounting for it.

[Asisreo1]

Roll20 is pretty anemic if you don’t throw money at it. And if you’re in a place to throw money at something nowadays there are better options emerging.

I strongly doubt the average GM has the time and patience to set up any elaborate macros for roll20. Standard chat message rolls (or baseline character sheet generated rolls) won’t have much / any minutiae like accounting for a simple +1 from bless without the player manually accounting for it.
Your point itself is completely correct but I should mention that they do have an option to tick off "other modifiers like bless or bardic inspiration" on the free OGL character sheet template. So its possible for the players to account for Bless automatically with a toggle.

I don't think this extends to NPC's but I could be wrong.

[diplomancer]

At the table I'm at it's always been "Go ahead and bring up if you think the DM is handling something wrong. Then go with his ruling. If there's serious disagreement about something, bring it up after the session or before the new one. Let everyone talk their thoughts on it and the next session the DM can say how things are going to be handled going forward when he DM's."


That's exactly what I do too, specially with a DM I don't know well enough yet. I don't even dispute the DM's interpretation at the moment, I just ask "does it work like this?", even if I know it doesn't. If he corrects it then, good; if he doesn't I bring it up between sessions, preferably also showing him relevant rules/errata/sage advice. Then I let him feel confortable to decide if he will keep his houserule or change it to the by-the-book rules.

Now I know how he will rule on that question in the future and plan accordingly.

If it's a DM I DO know well (or more relevantly, that knows ME well and knows I'm not a disruptive player), I may be more direct in actual game play, saying "I believe it works this way, actually".

[Xervous]

Your point itself is completely correct but I should mention that they do have an option to tick off "other modifiers like bless or bardic inspiration" on the free OGL character sheet template. So its possible for the players to account for Bless automatically with a toggle.

I don't think this extends to NPC's but I could be wrong.

At the risk of splitting hairs clicking a box hardly sounds automatic. Now if that was clicking bless on the cleric’s sheet consumes the slot and grants the benefits to the fighter, removing it when concentration drops...

[TyGuy]

Roll20 is pretty anemic if you don’t throw money at it. And if you’re in a place to throw money at something nowadays there are better options emerging.

Hey, I was about to trial fantasy grounds. What other things are emerging? I'm curious what my options are.

[Demonslayer666]

A rules lawyer is someone that knows the rules of the game and is always correcting everyone (starts an argument). It does not have to be someone that uses it to their own advantage (it certainly can be though).

Players are responsible for knowing how their abilities work. If the player doesn't know, and the DM gets it wrong, tell the player and DM how it works outside of game. Unless it causes a TPK, it's not worth stopping game over it.

I do ask my players to correct me on the spot if I contradict the rules. All other arguments I ask that they wait until after game. Nose out of books, play more.

[Xervous]

Hey, I was about to trial fantasy grounds. What other things are emerging? I'm curious what my options are.

Foundry VTT is what I’m in the process of migrating my group to. DISCLAIMER it is basically a web app development environment. For popular systems like 5e there’s a wealth of community implemented systems with self contained character sheets, character import functionality and automated roll resolution. While you can technically do anything, it is again straight up app development at that point so I do not suggest it for casual users. With my coding background roll20 could hardly do what I envisioned, and the one time payment (50$) for standalone Foundry absolutely blows away a roll20 sub for my case.

In summary: want more functionality, self hosted server, playing a popular system that’s being implemented by the community (Yeah 5e counts)? Consider foundry. The website lets you jump in to a 5e demo game as a free preview of features.

[Sol0botmate]

A rules lawyer is someone that knows the rules of the game and is always correcting everyone (starts an argument). It does not have to be someone that uses it to their own advantage (it certainly can be though).

Players are responsible for knowing how their abilities work.

Exactly. For example when I am under effect of being heavy obscured as Hexblade and DM cast on me spell that clearly requires "target you can see" then I will rule lawyer because why I should get Disintegrate in face if rules say I can't? I don't think rule lawyering is bad. Imo it's good if you use it to just stick to the rules as everyone should. Game is supposed to be fair and rules are for both DM and players. Because if DM will still want to hit me with Disintegrate then next time I cast it- I expect that I can also target heavy obscured targets because rules work both ways.

So don't be afraid to rule lawyer. Just do it in polite way.

[Kurt Kurageous]

In the end, bad D&D beats no D&D.