True Sight va Traps

[Malfarian]

Hello all,
I strongly suspect it’s been answered but why didn’t redcloaks true sight see the trap in the cave? I get the story plot , but is there a DnD answer?

[Peelee]

Hello all,
I strongly suspect it’s been answered but why didn’t redcloaks true sight see the trap in the cave? I get the story plot , but is there a DnD answer?


True Seeing

You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.

True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.

The trap is not hidden by magic, under blur or displacement effects, invisible, under any illusion, polymorphed, changed, transmuted, or in the Ethereal Plane. It's simply hard to notice. True Seeing does nothing to help.

[unbeliever536]

The trap is not hidden by magic, under blur or displacement effects, invisible, under any illusion, polumored, changed, transmuted, or in the Ethereal Plane. It's simply hard to notice. True Sight does nothing to help.

Indeed. The fact that Redcloak is not a rogue or other trapfinding class and that Xykon is rushing him are far more relevant in terms of noticing a tiny line of characters that could easily be mistaken for decoration in any case. Also note that the color change in the floor happens after Haley bypasses the trap, so a very noticable barrier for the Order and the readers is that much harder for Redcloak to spot.

[Yanisa]

Redcloak should have prepared a Find Traps (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/findTraps.htm) spell.

Not that that would help him much, I suspect that his base search skill isn't that great.

[Riftwolf]

Redcloak should have prepared a Find Traps (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/findTraps.htm) spell.

Not that that would help him much, I suspect that his base search skill isn't that great.

Team Evil probably don't expect traps, as the Dungeon is filled with monsters that'd trip them if they were there.

[RochtheCrusher]

In certain cases, I might actually up the DC. True Sight lets you see MORE than normal (the Ethereal Plane, at very least), but if the information you wanted was already in front of you, and you're now viewing more information and searching for people-sized objects, you're going to be at a disadvantage if the actual thing you're looking for isn't highlighted.

[ByzantiumBhuka]

Team Evil probably don't expect traps, as the Dungeon is filled with monsters that'd trip them if they were there.

Also...

Redcloak: I presume I should prepare Find Traps, considering that the only rogues we in this town are too low-level for the tomb?
Oona: No, no, do not be wasting your magic! Oona has been having many experiences with Monster Hollow, and it only is sprouting monsters, no traps.

[NerdyKris]

Xykon and the MitD would also be able to trigger most traps with very little danger to themselves. We already know Xykon spent his time in Azure City crafting a bunch of protective items to cover weaknesses he has.

[danielxcutter]

Yeah, most traps are “Fireball to the face” like the Draketooth pyramid. And most traps are far less dangerous than most monsters that even have a chance of threatening Team Evil by now, it’s not unthinkable that they’d expect that even if there were traps the bugbears simply hadn’t found yet they could probably just facetank them.

Maybe Redcloak did try to look for traps at first, but after several dozen runs at this point I doubt he’d still be doing that when even one dungeon dive is a strain on his slots and six is risky even by Xykon’s standards.

[Timy]

OK for the traps but, I don't see in the description of true sight (or meld into stone) how it could prevent RC to not be fooled by meld into stone.

It is not IMO something which fit in True Sight description...

[Peelee]

OK for the traps but, I don't see in the description of true sight (or meld into stone) how it could prevent RC to not be fooled by meld into stone.

It is not IMO something which fit in True Sight description...

Meld Into Stone is Transmutation. Apparently in Stickworld, that's enough for True Seeing to notice. I see no reason to doubt Redcloak, who we have every reason to believe knows how his own spells work. It's debatable whether that ruling would fly at any given table, but it definitely flies in this comic.

[Timy]

Fair enough...

[Riftwolf]

The real question is how Tarquin was fooled by Meld into Stone while wearing a Ring of True Seeing.

[unbeliever536]

The real question is how Tarquin was fooled by Meld into Stone while wearing a Ring of True Seeing.

How or if.

[Ionathus]

How or if.

Ooh, I love that angle. One more level of "testing" Nale? Or possibly his attention was focused on Haley preparing her smokestick arrow.

As for this broader discussion...maybe this was discussed back in BRitF, but what preparations could the Draketooths have made against True Seeing and similar divinations? It feels like Illusion spells have a pretty hard "kill switch" in that respect. Are there illusions that resist True Seeing?

[danielxcutter]

Maybe because Durkon was hiding off to the side, and Tarquin wasn’t searching hard.

[Kelenius]

The real question is how Tarquin was fooled by Meld into Stone while wearing a Ring of True Seeing.

He didn't see Durkon when he was right in front of him in the smoke (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0859.html), and True Seeing doesn't help against non-magical smoke. Melded Durkon would also be protected by smoke.

[danielxcutter]

He didn't see Durkon when he was right in front of him in the smoke (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0859.html), and True Seeing doesn't help against non-magical smoke. Melded Durkon would also be protected by smoke.

Durkon was almost right next to Tarquin just when he grabbed the smokestick arrow. That being said, I suppose it'd be easy to argue that events simply unfolded too quickly for Tarquin to notice that.

[Quartz]

Notice too that the burn mark is still there but Redcloak cannot see it because Oona is in the way and Oona cannot see it because she is looking at Redcloak.

[Morquard]

Durkon was almost right next to Tarquin just when he grabbed the smokestick arrow. That being said, I suppose it'd be easy to argue that events simply unfolded too quickly for Tarquin to notice that.
Also possible that True Seeing was still registering a lot of left-over magic, smaller illusions etc from the Draketooths. in #842 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html) they mention that most likely only the most basic ones are still active.
Very likely that Tarquin comes to the same conclusion when they examine that room.

So he might just disregard random magic effects in the middle of nowhere without further investigating everything.

[danielxcutter]

Also possible that True Seeing was still registering a lot of left-over magic, smaller illusions etc from the Draketooths. in #842 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html) they mention that most likely only the most basic ones are still active.
Very likely that Tarquin comes to the same conclusion when they examine that room.

So he might just disregard random magic effects in the middle of nowhere without further investigating everything.

You're confusing True Seeing with Detect Magic; True Seeing just lets you see through transmutations and illusions to see the true form.

[Metastachydium]

I think the thing with Tarquin is simple enough: one cannot see (with True Seeing or otherwise) what one isn't looking at.

[ORione]

Neither Tarquin nor Redcloak could see Durkon (or Minrah, in Redcloak's case) because True Seeing doesn't let you see through stone, and there was stone between their line of sight and Durkon.

[Metastachydium]

This argument comes up a lot, but the thing is, Redcloak believes he could spot melded creatures with True Seeing, and there's a number of ways in which he can be right. True Seeing allows for the detection of transmutation effects, and Meld iinto Stone is such an effect, which – if what we have seen in the comic thus far is anything to go by – transmutes the stone rather than the subject (Durkon and Minrah sink into the rock which warps around their bodies as if it was a dense liquid). If that is the case, Redcloak, Tarquin or anyone else cannot notice the person melded into stone, but they can notice the transmuted patch of rock.

[Kornaki]

Tarquin also knew there was a trap before the arrow was fired. Maybe because he did see a big patch of transmuted rock to his side.

He's not s spellcaster, so the finer details of the threat were not obvious to him

[NerdyKris]

He knew that was a trap because it was the most dramatically appropriate location and time for a trap. That's why he said he could feel it.

[Darth V]

Not a D&D player here, but regarding Tarquin in Girard's pyramid I thought Durkon used the stone melding just to walk through the wall from a parallel hallway, and not that he was stationary hiding in the wall. Would the spell work like that?

[hamishspence]

As long as the wall is thick enough to accommodate you, you can hide in it:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/meldIntoStone.htm

[Snails]

We see Redcloak cast True Seeing in #1222. We do not see him cast it earlier when it might help against Meld Into Stone. Which I presume everyone knows. But it is an Alteration of the stone.

As for Tarquin, it is a big corridor and smoke can easily get in the way. 10 feet of smoke is enough. For the sake of the Readers, the Giant decided to not show the smoke realistically, so we could see through 10 feet easily, rather that just draw a blank grey panel.

Given the wording of Glyph of Warding, I would say True Seeing is of zero help there, too. The trap is actually physically there to be seen by normal vision, that anyone could find if only you get down on your hands and knees with a magnifying glass to search inch by inch. (There is a DC that is very high for a low level character or mundane NPC, but a DM would probably handwave away the roll if the character is doing the exact right thing to find the traces of the spell.)

[Snails]

No doubt Redcloak has used Find Traps in the past, and just gave up on it. To actually find any traps with his likely skill levels, he would have to go so slowly as to wear out Xykon's patience. The spell is worthless to Redcloak for going through the corridors at a normal pace.