Need help determining whether my weapon is martial for entry into Abjurant Champion!

[Melcar]

Ok, so, I'm looking at the Abjurant Champion and I see it has a prerequisite that says that one must be proficient with at least one martial weapon.

Then look at the Kensai variant fighter from Dragon Magazine #310, which is proficient in the use of all simple weapons, light armor, and a single martial or exotic melee weapon that is the Kensai's chosen weapon.

Now assuming I had chosen Great Scimitar as my exotic weapon proficiency (because I want to wield it one handed), would that then honor the prerequisite for Abjurant Champion, seeing its both an exotic weapon and a martial weapon?


Thanks!

[Gruftzwerg]

By RAW sadly no. Because Great Scimitar reads:

You can use a great scimitar twohanded as a martial weapon.
You are allowed to "use" it as martial weapon and that's it. Not more not less. It doesn't have the ability to "count" as martial weapon, which would be needed to qualify for prerequisites and requirements.

And imho the feat invested into Great Scimitar is wasted. You are spending a feat to do 1 point more average damage compared to a regular scimitar. You get nothing else compared to a regular scimitar. Is this 1 point of more dmg worth 1/7th of your feats to spend on a character?

Further there is the options to get general martial weapon proficiency by some races. E.g. Elves get longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.

[Melcar]

By RAW sadly no. Because Great Scimitar reads:

You are allowed to "use" it as martial weapon and that's it. Not more not less. It doesn't have the ability to "count" as martial weapon, which would be needed to qualify for prerequisites and requirements.

And imho the feat invested into Great Scimitar is wasted. You are spending a feat to do 1 point more average damage compared to a regular scimitar. You get nothing else compared to a regular scimitar. Is this 1 point of more dmg worth 1/7th of your feats to spend on a character?

Further there is the options to get general martial weapon proficiency by some races. E.g. Elves get longsword, rapier, longbow (including composite longbow), and shortbow (including composite shortbow) as bonus feats.

Thanks...

I had totally forgotten about the elf traits there... the character for which this idea is build is indeed elf. The Exotic weapon proficiency however is free and part of the variant fighter's proficiency list, so I wouldn't be using a feat on it... However, this particular character will be using either scimitar or great scimitar, since I feel scimitars - as seen in LoTR - fit elves better... question is just whether is should be a scimitar the size of Arwen's or the size of Anduril...

[ThanatosZero]

The final world always lies with the DM. If they recognise the great scimitar as a martial weapon, then it is a martial weapon, albeit a obscure one, which makes it exotic in the first place.

Let us check the dictionary.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/martial
Definition of martial

1 : of, relating to, or suited for war or a warrior
*martial music
*a martial tone of voice— Tim Appelo
*martial prowess
2 : relating to an army or to military life

The question should be, if great scimitars are common weapons in the militia of Mulhorand for example, or how common they are wielded in the lands they originate from.
One way is to ask a weapon smith, if the exotic weapon is fit for to be wielded in a war.

Another way to gain access to Abjurant Champion is to have a duel with a existing Abjurant Champion, which shall be the judge if you are skilled enough for to be under his tutelage.

[Saintheart]

Thanks...

I had totally forgotten about the elf traits there... the character for which this idea is build is indeed elf. The Exotic weapon proficiency however is free and part of the variant fighter's proficiency list, so I wouldn't be using a feat on it..

The devil is in the detail, because that Kensai in effect is a fighter with no proficiency in martial weapons with the bonus feat choices for 1st and 2nd level locked to a single weapon proficiency and Weapon Focus for that weapon only. Yes it gets Concentration as a class skill which is handy for gish, the Kensai PrC, or certain marital adepts, and a sort of monk flurry with the weapon, but it's pretty situational as a base class. I hope you're only dipping it for one level.

[Gruftzwerg]

The final world always lies with the DM. If they recognise the great scimitar as a martial weapon, then it is a martial weapon, albeit a obscure one, which makes it exotic in the first place.

Let us check the dictionary.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/martial
Definition of martial

1 : of, relating to, or suited for war or a warrior
*martial music
*a martial tone of voice— Tim Appelo
*martial prowess
2 : relating to an army or to military life

The question should be, if great scimitars are common weapons in the militia of Mulhorand for example, or how common they are wielded in the lands they originate from.
One way is to ask a weapon smith, if the exotic weapon is fit for to be wielded in a war.

Another way to gain access to Abjurant Champion is to have a duel with a existing Abjurant Champion, which shall be the judge if you are skilled enough for to be under his tutelage.

Sure the DM can always ignore the 3.5 rules and reset em as he sees it fit.
But if you intend to stick to the rules, "martial weapon" is a defined 3.5 term which suppresses any dictionary definition. And sadly, by rules as written, the Greater Scimitar doens't fulfill that requirement. It can only be used as MW and doesn't count as such.
From a balancing point of view I see no issue to houserule it to work together. Especially if you consider that normally you would assume exotic weapons to be of "higher tier" than martial and simple weapons. It ain't a big deal, it is just not RAW 3.5 (but nobody really plays 100% RAW, so who cares^^).

[Melcar]

The devil is in the detail, because that Kensai in effect is a fighter with no proficiency in martial weapons with the bonus feat choices for 1st and 2nd level locked to a single weapon proficiency and Weapon Focus for that weapon only. Yes it gets Concentration as a class skill which is handy for gish, the Kensai PrC, or certain marital adepts, and a sort of monk flurry with the weapon, but it's pretty situational as a base class. I hope you're only dipping it for one level.

Well, I was thinking of going Figther 4/ Wiz 5/ Abjurant Champ 5/ Swiftblade 6

That might not be the absolute most optimized way of doing it, but that's the way I had imagined it. If you think Kensai is a bad variant, should I then just take normal fighter?

I'm open for suggestions...



Sure the DM can always ignore the 3.5 rules and reset em as he sees it fit.
But if you intend to stick to the rules, "martial weapon" is a defined 3.5 term which suppresses any dictionary definition. And sadly, by rules as written, the Greater Scimitar doens't fulfill that requirement. It can only be used as MW and doesn't count as such.
From a balancing point of view I see no issue to houserule it to work together. Especially if you consider that normally you would assume exotic weapons to be of "higher tier" than martial and simple weapons. It ain't a big deal, it is just not RAW 3.5 (but nobody really plays 100% RAW, so who cares^^).

Indeed... and luckilly you reminded me that elves, do have a racial trait of having certain few matial weapon proficiencies, so that seemed to take care of any issues with the Great Scimitar not being matial...

[ThanatosZero]

Since you go for a gish build with swiftblade, let us see if we can you something better than kensai.
There is the 1st level regional feat Militia, which grants you profiency in all simple and martial weapons.

Wizard 6/Swiftblade 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade +7 (9)

With this build you will end up with 17 BAB and 17/20 Wizard Spellcasting, which allows you to cast atleast one 9th level spell, which will most likely be time stop for to fit with the swiftblade theme.

[Gruftzwerg]

Well, I was thinking of going Figther 4/ Wiz 5/ Abjurant Champ 5/ Swiftblade 6

That might not be the absolute most optimized way of doing it, but that's the way I had imagined it. If you think Kensai is a bad variant, should I then just take normal fighter?

I'm open for suggestions...

Why not drop the fighter entirely?

E.g. Wizard 6 / Swiftblade X / Abjurant Champ X
Sure the first lvls, you will be a weak melee and maybe even want to avoid melee combat on those lvls. But you have a far better spell lvl progression than with fighter lvls.

Or maybe a Battle Sorcerer variant (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm)? Would get d8 HP and can pick a 1h martial weapon to be proficient with.

[ThanatosZero]

If we go with spontanous casting, I recommend the Sublime Bardadin, which has lots of Charisma synergy

Bard 1/Battledancer 1/Paladin of Freedom 2/Bard +6 (7)/Sublime Chord 2/Abjurant Champion 5/Sacred Exorcist 3

16 BAB, 10/10 Sublime Chord Spellcasting, CL 17, Charisma to AC and Saves.


Or with Sorcadin

Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Swiftblade 8

18 BAB, 15/20 Sorcerer spellcasting (only up to 7th level spells) but CL 18 due Martial Arcanist and Charisma to saves.

[Thurbane]

While not RAW, personally I think AC reqs should read "Must be proficient with at least one martial or exotic weapon."