Polymorph spell tree, is there any hope?

[Skjaldbakka]

Is there a level at which the polymorph line of spells would be balanced as is?

Alter Self is too strong for a 2nd level spell, but what about a 3rd or 4th level spell? What if we bump all the polymorph spells up a level or two? Getting rid of Shapechange entirely?

[Mike_Lemmer]

I like the specific polymorph spells: they give you just one form you can polymorph into. Less cheese, more interesting abilities. Most of the polymorph could be balanced if they just gave you 4-5 creatures/forms you could change into, saving the catch-all versions for higher levels.

[The Professor]

I've always liked Fiendform from Forgotten Realms. Like Polymorph, but you get the Outsider's Su abilites too! :smallamused:

[tyckspoon]

Alter Self.. at an eyeball, I'd put it at 4th level. Its optimal forms compare favorably with 3rd-level spells- you can Alter Self for ten minutes/level into a flying form, or you can cast Fly and fly more effectively, but for only a minute/level. Alternately, you can get up to +6 Natural Armor and a number of natural attacks.. you'll need quite a few more caster levels to match those benefits with Barkskin and/or Spiderskin, and it's still lasting that tasty ten minutes/level. Some of the forms you can take are at least as good as or better than 3rd level spells, plus it's more versatile, so at least 4th.

Polymorph, I don't know about. It has much looser limitations on types and it lets you take on more qualities of the things you're turning into. The simplest approach is probably to chuck it entirely and use one of the more limited transformation spells that have been produced as its replacement. This is what Wizards has decided to do with it. If you wanted to keep it, I'd experiment with moving it around a few levels and seeing where it felt right. A dedicated player can probably find something to turn into that will be abusive wherever it ends up being.

Shapechange.. yeah, chuck it. No limits at all besides caster level on this thing.

[Temp]

Definitely chuck any without set lists.

Possibly replace them with Shapeshift-style set forms with stat bonuses in place of stat replacements.

And replace the target's abilities with those of the assumed form. No more of this Gestalt-style Treeant-Monk nonsense.

[Aquillion]

Alter Self.. at an eyeball, I'd put it at 4th level. Its optimal forms compare favorably with 3rd-level spells- you can Alter Self for ten minutes/level into a flying form, or you can cast Fly and fly more effectively, but for only a minute/level. Alternately, you can get up to +6 Natural Armor and a number of natural attacks.. you'll need quite a few more caster levels to match those benefits with Barkskin and/or Spiderskin, and it's still lasting that tasty ten minutes/level. Some of the forms you can take are at least as good as or better than 3rd level spells, plus it's more versatile, so at least 4th.Alter Self is problematic because it's one of those things that is decently balanced as long as you don't go out of your way to abuse it (flying humanoids only appeared relatively recently in splatbooks, say... I think there's still only one? And combining Alter Self with a specific type you want to abuse is somewhat specific... most players are still humanoids.)

I would rather fix Alter Self by removing its ability to grant you a fly speed unless your natural form normally has one (why was that even in there?!) Also, I'd probably make it change you to a humanoid form no matter what you were before. That'd solve most of its problems... maybe remove a few other things if it gets too bad. Alter Self already has a fairly tight list of what it can give you, so it wouldn't be tough to fix; it's just that there are a few things on that list that shouldn't be, like flying.

[kme]

Hmm maybe a fix for polymorph spells could be a cap on a bonuses that you can get. For example, maximum natural armor that you can get could be 1 + 1 for every 4 caster levels, something similar for ability scores, speed, forms of movement. Maybe allow increasing or getting only one special ability per 4 levels. Or maybe make some mechanic that works like astral construct psionic power.