The Hecatoncheires...again [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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RNightstalker

2021-01-17, 05:31 PM

Since someone else mentioned it in a not too recent thread, I'd figure I'd bring this one back around to see if we can make any progress. I'm hoping the playground can help answer some questions and make the Hecatoncheires worth the rating of 57. Who's up to the challenge?

-What's the lowest level build you can solo one by yourself? I'm probably thinking an Arcane Thesis on enervation that's maximized, twinned, etc.

-What's the lowest level 4-PC party that can take the Hecatoncheires?

-What's missing from the stat blocks to make it a true CR 57? Feats, abilities, immunities, DR, etc.

-What would be good counters to what other playgrounders have mentioned/recommended?

-Has anybody ever fought one or ran one as a DM?

-Finally, anybody willing to do a playtest on PBP or something like that?

Biggus

2021-01-17, 06:58 PM

In this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624797-Lvl-20-Pathfinder-vs-DnD3-5-SRD-Epic-Bestiary), Endarire said

The most notable WotC epic threats from the SRD are the casters, mostly the Dragons. Much of everything else can be beaten with forcecage, flight, (improved) invisibility, long-range weaponry (mostly spells), and simply going first.

The Hecatoncheires is vulnerable to Forcecage, to long-range weaponry depending what you treat the range of its boulders as since its entry doesn't say, and to going first if you have someone who can cast Align Weapon, as any 57th-level party should be able to do 1058 damage in a round without much difficulty.

To counter these, I've made it gargantuan (so too big for Forcecage), given its boulders a long range and given it (and all abominations) a +10 insight bonus to initiative (as in PF where quite a few of the top-tier monsters get it).

It needs two more feats; one because it has one too few for a 52HD monster, and one because Multidexterity is obsolete in 3.5.

I'm also considering increasing its Con and DR to reduce the chance of it being killed before it even gets an attack.

Its Will save is also low for a CR57 monster. It's immune to mind-affecting, but that still leaves it vulnerable to things like Glitterdust and Harm.

AvatarVecna

2021-01-17, 10:22 PM

It's difficult to say what such a creature should look like to be a suitable threat for its level because it's difficult to say what a lvl 57 game should play like.

Human Fighter 57 (using that online dead levels thing for Stamina Reserve 28)

Lvl
HD
Fighter
Race

1
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Kaorti Resin Scythe)
Weapon Focus (Kaorti Resin Scythe)
Improved Initiative

2

Power Attack

3
Improved Bull Rush

4

Weapon Specialization (Kaorti Resin Scythe)

5

6
Shock Trooper
Cleave

7

8

Greater Weapon Focus (Kaorti Resin Scythe)

9
Quick Reconnoiter

10

Improved Critical (Kaorti Resin Scythe)

11

12
Improved Toughness
Greater Weapon Specialization (Kaorti Resin Scythe)

13

14

Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing)

15
Endurance

16

Slashing Flurry

17

18
Diehard
Weapon Supremacy (Kaorti Resin Scythe)

19

20

Great Cleave

21
Great Strength

22

Epic Weapon Focus (Kaorti Resin Scythe)

23

24
Great Strength
Epic Weapon Specialization (Kaorti Resin Scythe)

25

26

Superior Initiative

27
Great Strength

28

Dire Charge

29

30
Great Strength
Overwhelming Critical (Kaorti Resin Scythe)

31

32

Devastating Critical (Kaorti Resin Scythe)

33
Great Strength

34

Epic Endurance

35

36
Great Strength
Epic Prowess

37

38

Epic Prowess

39
Great Strength

40

Epic Prowess

41

42
Great Strength
Epic Prowess

43

44

Epic Prowess

45
Great Strength

46

Epic Prowess

47

48
Great Strength
Epic Prowess

49

50

Epic Prowess

51
Great Strength

52

Epic Prowess

53

54
Great Strength
Epic Prowess

55

56

Epic Prowess

57
Great Strength

~69 million gp (nice)

Weapon: Kaorti Resin Scythe +16 (5,120,000)
Arms: Bracers Of Armor +24 (5,760,000)
Face: Mask Of Wisdom +24 (5,760,000)
Feet: Boots Of Constitution +24 (5,760,000)
Hands: Gloves Of Dexterity +24 (5,760,000)
Head: Headband Of Intellect +24 (5,760,000)
Ring: Ring Of Protection +16 (5,120,000)
Ring: {various buffs including haste attack} (~5,500,000)
Shoulders: Cloak Of Charisma +24 (5,760,000)
Throat: Amulet Of Natural Armor +16 (5,120,000)
Torso: Vest Of Resistance +24 (5,760,000)
Waist: Belt Of Strength +24 (5,760,000)
Full Set Of Tomes/Manuals (825,000)
Other slotless stuff (~1,000,000)

Init +26
AC 83 / Touch AC 43 / FFAC 67
HP 1339/1339

Str 47 (+18) / 71 (+30)
Dex 18 (+4) / 42 (+16)
Con 20 (+5) / 44 (+17)
Int 18 (+4) / 42 (+16)
Wis 18 (+4) / 42 (+16)
Cha 14 (+2) / 38 (+14)

Intimidate 60 (+74)
Listen 30 (+46)
Spot 30 (+46)
Endurance Stuff +59

Fort +71 / Ref +64 / Will +64

Attack Routine (charge, PA -10/+20): +88 / +88 / +88 / +83 / +78 / +78
Damage: 2d4+111 (15-20/x4 +3d6)

Now, this is a bit more optimized than WotC, but not that much more optimized, and nobody would call it overpowered by any stretch. Lvl 57 PC vs CR 57 monster should be a roughly even fight.

You win init 197/200 times, you get a dire charge with -20 AC/+40 damage on a charge. You only miss on a nat 1, and you can't get crits against it, so you're dealing 116 damage per hit before reduction. You can expect ~547 dmage, with it recovering a bit in between turns. You can take a -8/+16 tradeoff when doing standing full attacks while still hitting on a 2, so go ahead and do that for 2d4+87, which is about 410 DPR. 547+410+410 makes 1367, so even with it recovering 90 HP each turn from regeneration/fast healing, it's going to be deep into negative nonlethal at the end of your third turn. It will get two turns in between to wreck you right back.

15 attacks per turn means 30 total. First turn, you're effectively AC 63, so it takes a -12/+24 PA tradeoff for +61 (still hitting on a nat 2) and 2d6+44 (17-20/x2). it misses 20/400 (0 damage), hits 304/400 (51 damage), and crits 76/400 (102 damage). Average damage-per-attack is 58.14 but let's call it 59. 885 damage the first round. Second round, your AC is 83 again, and now even with no tradeoff he's missing 180/400 (0 damage), hitting 176/400 (27 damage), and critting 44/400 (54 damage). Average damage-per-attack is 17.82, but let's call it 18. Round 2 damage is 270, so he's dealt a total of 1155 by the time the fighter absolutely trashes him.

These feat picks, these item picks, they're not that great. And despite the trashiness of the build, it's a relatively close match - maybe some bad luck for the fight, or good luck for the hecatoncheires, will see it just barely scrape out a win. But you could make small changes to this build that would drastically alter its performance. Maybe it switches out a couple Epic Prowess for a couple Damage Reduction, and now he's taking up to 90 less damage per round from Big H. Maybe it spends 26k stapling a slotless Monk's Belt to the Strength Belt and has AC 79 after Shock Trooper, cutting down Big H's DPR to shreds (especially the first round). Maybe slightly better Int, the education feat, and knowledge devotion will give a decent boost to attack/damage routine. Maybe build a couple spell effects into that ring that can seriously tip the fight in the fighter's favor.

Lots of things that can be done with money and feats, and all of these are teeny tiny suggestions that wouldn't require much effort at all, and would allow a 90% trash fighter to use the 10% nontrash of their build to absolutely wreck an equal-level beatstick monster in a beatstick contest in a way that's even more statistically certain than what I've posted here - and the odds already favor the fighter more than a bit.

Is this what a high-epic beatstick is supposed to look like? I dunno. Probably not.

Commoner 57 with PC wealth

Lvl 1: 8/9/17/18/9/9
Lvl 57 with books: 13/14/22/37/14/14

Profession (Farmer) 60 ranks
1 rank in like all other skills

Lvl
Feats

1
Toughness

3
Toughness

6
Improved Toughness

9
Toughness

12
Toughness

15
Dwarf's Toughness

18
Dwarf's Toughness

21
Epic Toughness

24
Epic Toughness

27
Epic Toughness

30
Epic Toughness

33
Epic Toughness

36
Epic Toughness

39
Epic Toughness

42
Epic Toughness

45
Epic Toughness

48
Epic Toughness

51
Epic Toughness

54
Epic Toughness

57
Epic Toughness

All items can only be used by an TN Commoner with 60 ranks in Profession (Farmer). To be slightly fair, will have all but the standard effect be at slotless cost - doubled, to be clear. These two more or less balance each other out? Ish?

Weapon: Kaorti Resin Scythe +45 (825,000)
Alchemical +5
Circumstance +5
Competence +5
Enhancement +5
Insight +5
Luck +5
Morale +5
Profane +5
Sacred +5

Arms: Bracers of True Armor +55 (612500)
Alchemical +5
Circumstance +5
Competence +5
Deflection +5
Enhancement +5
Insight +5
Luck +5
Morale +5
Natural Armor +5
Profane +5
Sacred +5
Shield +5

Face: Mask Of Power (908,000)
Continuous "Divine Power"
Continuous "Sakkratar's Triple Strike"
Continuous "Choose Destiny"
Continuous "Greater Mighty Wallop" CL 20
Continuous "Wraithstrike"
Continuous "Heroics" x14 (Power Attack, EWM/WF/WS/GWF/GWS/MWM/SF/WSup/EWF/EWS for Kaorti Resin Scythe, Leap Attack, Imp Init, Sup Init)
You'll have to take my word on the price: I'm using BS that builds the items at lower spell levels and drastically lower CLs, by having the artificer who made them replicating PrCs that have stupid interactions with the crafting rules

Feet: Boots Of True Constitution +54 (594,000)
Alchemical +6
Circumstance +6
Competence +6
Enhancement +6
Insight +6
Luck +6
Morale +6
Profane +6
Sacred +6

Hands: Gloves Of True Dexterity +54 (594,000)
Alchemical +6
Circumstance +6
Competence +6
Enhancement +6
Insight +6
Luck +6
Morale +6
Profane +6
Sacred +6

Head: Headband Of True Intellect +54 (594,000)
Alchemical +6
Circumstance +6
Competence +6
Enhancement +6
Insight +6
Luck +6
Morale +6
Profane +6
Sacred +6

Ring: Ring Of Invulnerability (1,195,000)
Ring Of Evasion
Ring Of Freedom Of Movement
Continuous "Empyreal Ecstasy"
Continuous "Starmantle"
Continuous "Delay Death"
Continuous "Greater Shield Of Lathandar"
Continuous "Death Ward"
Continuous "Favor Of The Martyr"
Continuous "Energy Immunity" x5
You'll have to take my word on the price: I'm using BS that builds the items at lower spell levels and drastically lower CLs, by having the artificer who made them replicating PrCs that have stupid interactions with the crafting rules

Ring: Ring Of Ultimate Mobility (~1,500,000)
You'll just have to take my word on this one: there is an item/spells combo that comes out to a bit under 3 million normally that will give you Fly 280 (perfect), as well as similarly stupid speeds in every other speed type and the pounce ability

Shoulders: Cloak Of True Charisma +54 (594,000)
Alchemical +6
Circumstance +6
Competence +6
Enhancement +6
Insight +6
Luck +6
Morale +6
Profane +6
Sacred +6

Throat: Periapt Of True Wisdom +54 (594,000)
Alchemical +6
Circumstance +6
Competence +6
Enhancement +6
Insight +6
Luck +6
Morale +6
Profane +6
Sacred +6

Torso: Vest Of True Resistance +50 (462,500)
Alchemical +5
Circumstance +5
Competence +5
Enhancement +5
Insight +5
Luck +5
Morale +5
Profane +5
Resistance +5
Sacred +5

Waist: Belt Of True Strength +54 (620,000)
Alchemical +6
Circumstance +6
Competence +6
Enhancement +6
Insight +6
Luck +6
Morale +6
Profane +6
Sacred +6
Monk's Belt

Full Set Of Tomes/Manuals (412,500)
Slotless (~59,400,000)

Init +37
AC 124 / Touch AC 114 / FFAC 66
HP 2491

Str 13 (+1) / 67 (+28)
Dex 14 (+2) / 68 (+29)
Con 22 (+6) / 76 (+33)
Int 37 (+13) / 91 (+40)
Wis 14 (+2) / 68 (+29)
Cha 14 (+2) / 68 (+29)

Profession (Farmer) 60 (+89)
All Others at least 1 (at least +29)

Fort +107
Ref +103
Will +103

Attack Routine (pounce, PA -57/+114, targeting Touch AC): +76/+76/+76/+76/+71/+66/+66
Damage: 6d6+201 (15-20/x4)

I win initiative 100% of the time. I pounce forward 280 ft, making 7 attacks. I target touch, have advantage on all d20 rolls from Choose Destiny, and I only miss on a 1 even though I'm making a full PA tradeoff. I barely even need wraithstrike against this foe. I deal ~1414 damage on average, and it's unconscious from too much nonlethal, unless somewhere in my almost 60 million leftover gold is spell effects making my weapons count as every material and alignment, which is 100% possible. But let's humor the thing and give it a turn attacking.

It only gets 15 attacks. Let's cheat and give it 100. It only hits on a 20. Let's cheat and say it rolls all 20s, and is thus scoring 100 crits on me per round, even at full PA tradeoff. With every hit, I make a Ref save DC 15 - 1/400 times, I double-nat-1 and take half damage from his attack before DR. 399/400, I take no damage at all. Or rather that'd be the case if it was wielding magic greatswords, which it isn't, but let's pretend it is. Let's also pretend I double-nat-1 all 100 crits, and take half damage from each of those before DR. That's 65 damage per swing before DR. That becomes 45 damage per swing after DR. I've now taken 4500 damage.

...

...and it doesn't matter because I have continuous "Delay Death", and Autohypnosis +29. The former changes my "dead at this negative HP" value to "negative infinite", and the latter lets me act normally regardless of how far into the negatives my HP are. This is true even assuming I double-nat-1 the skill check, since the DC is 30 and you can't auto-fail skill checks. So even assuming we're in the 1 universe out of 20300 cheating universes where it got the absolute perfect attack routine against me, it still is actually literally incapable of inconveniencing me via damage.

This time I used a metric buttload of WBLmancy and absolute shenanigans. I've had tables where things like this were allowed, albeit not very many at all.

Is this what a high-epic beatstick is supposed to look like? I dunno. Probably not.

JNAProductions

2021-01-17, 10:42 PM

20300

Also known as...

You know, I was gonna plug it into a calculator to see what 20300 is fully expanded, and guess what? It's too damn big!

Edit: Wait, my Alienware computer running Linux did it!

2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000

Or 2*10^390

AvatarVecna

2021-01-17, 11:06 PM

Also known as...

You know, I was gonna plug it into a calculator to see what 20300 is fully expanded, and guess what? It's too damn big!

Edit: Wait, my Alienware computer running Linux did it!

2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00 0,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000

Or 2*10^390

That's not quite accurate because 20^300 is (2^300) * (10^300). So while 2E390 might be accurate enough, the elongated version you posted is inaccurate. Still, I'm not calcing 2^300 by hand just to give a 100% accurate elongated version.

rel

2021-01-17, 11:38 PM

I'm not sure how the designers expected you to run a creature with 100 attacks per round but I don't think it's practical.
I suggest rebuilding it from scratch around it's most interesting feature, it's insane numbers of extra heads and limbs.

Treat each head mechanically as a separate creature whenever that happens to be convenient for the monster.

Throw a single target spell at it, you /killed / disabled / whatever a single head. The remaining 49 and the rest of the monster are just fine thanks.
This can be fluffed as the spell killing the head as intended for something like enervation or a head sucking up the effect with a great intake of breath then supernaturally wilting for more esoteric things like forcecage or imprisonment.

You could also make the multiple heads a defence against HP damage, more than say 50HP in one go kills a head but only deals exactly 50 HP of damage.
Sir Critsalot slaps it for 1 million damage? Congrats, cross of 50 HP and one of the heads.

Next give it some capacity to operate outside the normal turn structure; extra turns, extra actions, special counter attack or interrupt abilites and some sort of extreme mobility powers stemming from its forrest of limbs

Then, instead of ridiculous numbers of extra attacks give the monster a few thematically appropriate abilities to represent its legion of limbs.

showy special attacks like sonic AOE's to represent the arms clapping or the heads braying in perfect unison.

Powerful single target effects representing it leaping on a single foe and pummels them into the ground with uncountable blows

lesser but everpresent environmental effects caused by a constant rain of projectiles and insults

maybe the ability to spawn new monsters as a head and a pair of arms literally pops free from the main body and starts wandering around threatening people.

Maat Mons

2021-01-17, 11:54 PM

I'm counting 1170 zeros on that number in the spoiler. That's three times as many as it should have.

Also, an easy way to ballpark numbers like this is to use the approximation 210 ≈ 103 (1024 ≈ 1000). That gives you 20300 = (210)30 * 10300 ≈ (103)30 * 10300 = 10390. Though that ballpark estimate turns out to be less than half the true value.

It's still helpful for determining what you need to directly calculate the number. 10390 ≈ 21300, and double-precision floating-point numbers typically overflow at 21024.

Which is why I typed "2^300" into Google, and just mentally added 300 to the exponent. Google said "2.037036e+90," so that means it's 2.037036e+390... or is it. There's going to be some rounding error in there.

Come on Avatar, you know you want to calculate this by hand to settle the matter for certain. It's only 11 multiplications, and the numbers don't get over 91 decimal places. That's doable.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2021-01-18, 12:37 AM

I don't really think bringing it up to the printed CR is the right course of action. It's mis-CR'd, so the better solution is to bring its CR down do its current power level.

As for defeating it, a Cleric 21 with DMM: Heighten, Earth Spell, Improved Heighten (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedHeightenSpell), and a pile of Nightsticks can use Holy Word at a high enough caster level to automatically overcome its SR and kill it outright. This isn't exactly fair, as this can kill pretty much any monster in the game, but there you have it.

Biggus

2021-01-18, 01:34 AM

Or rather that'd be the case if it was wielding magic greatswords, which it isn't, but let's pretend it is.

Why isn't it wielding magic greatswords? I mean, not that it really matters but just, y'know, for pedantry's sake...

Which is why I typed "2^300" into Google, and just mentally added 300 to the exponent. Google said "2.037036e+90," so that means it's 2.037036e+390... or is it. There's going to be some rounding error in there.

My calculator says 2^300 is 2.037035976333449 E+90, so I think it's about right.

I don't really think bringing it up to the printed CR is the right course of action. It's mis-CR'd, so the better solution is to bring its CR down do its current power level.

Any idea what its actual CR should be? I thought maybe about 47, but it's pretty hard to estimate when there are so few things to compare it to.

Draken

2021-01-18, 12:03 PM

Why isn't it wielding magic greatswords? I mean, not that it really matters but just, y'know, for pedantry's sake...

It doesn't have them, simple as that. It has the Greater Magic Weapon spell-like ability to "compensate", by spamming it on its swords over the course of ten minutes every two days.

Honestly. The best argument that can be made for these things is that the statline given is a baseline to be adapted with a treasure loadout derived from its treasure entry. But even then, the Hecatoncheires in particular should probably have been given teleportation as an SLA at the least.

Plus that is such an enormous volume of work, many people might just prefer to build an antagonist up from the ground at that point.

AvatarVecna

2021-01-18, 02:33 PM

Three's very little info about the mythical hekatoncheires, but what little we do get involves them throwing "stone the size of mountains, 100 at a time", and being on a level where they're an actual boon to have in combat between deific figures. You wanna make them worth their CR a bit more?

1) Give them divine rank, as most abominations should have. A pile of appropriate SLAs.

2) Colossal+ size, like some epic dragons get to be. They're the greatest of the giants, they shouldn't be smaller than lots of other giants, and they shouldn't be cage-able by a Widened Forcecage anymore than a normal one.

3) That earlier suggestion about having it be 50 statblocks combined into one? Yeah that'd probably work out pretty well. 50 health pools, to give them resistance to massive damage PCs/SoDs. 100 sets of actions (2 each, it'll make sense later), to wreck the action economy in a way a CR 57 creature should actually be capable of.

4) Make all 50 of the creatures that are glued together be about CR 44 on their own, and Hulking Hurlers.

5) Allow them to make iteratives when hurling more normal improvised weapons up to what would count as two-handed for a creature of their size.

6) Give them Distant Shot and Uncanny Accuracy epic feats for ranged goodies.

7) Give them a thing where if something would allow a target to auto-avoid their rocks (deflection, redirection, tactical teleportation...whatever), the target has to succeed on CL check vs your Attack roll for the thing to let them avoid the rock - otherwise, they've gotta rely on just their AC to avoid the boulder.

8) Anything wielded by a hecatoncheires counts as magic, epic any alignment, and any material for the purposes of bypassing DR/regen.

9) It's a deific being of absurd strength. **** it, give em the ability to sunder ongoing magic effects with their attacks.

...

4+5 means that their combat options are:

A) 100 Full Round Actions: Four hundred melee or ranged attacks with "small" improvised objects, each weighing up to 1600 lbs, which deals either 11d6 base damage (if it's blunt-ish), or 19d6 (if it's sharp/pointy); alternatively, fewer attacks, and they mix in some SLAs. This is how they engage massive armies of weaklings.

B) 100 Standards + 100 moves: One hundred attacks as in A, but they also get to move 100 times; alternatively, fewer attacks, and they mix in some SLAs. This will give them absurd mobility and let them use SLAs to dispel anything that has any business being near them.

C) 100 Full Round Actions: Overburdened Heave x100. 100 attacks, range is line of sight, weight is 546133 lbs each, and deals 2733d6 damage each. This is how they engage small armies of epic characters. This is assuming Str 50 and Colossal+

...

7+8+C means that a hecatoncheires is one of the things that's actually maybe able to ORKO another hecatoncheires, which can explain why they're loathe to summon each other.

AvatarVecna

2021-01-18, 02:36 PM

Why isn't it wielding magic greatswords? I mean, not that it really matters but just, y'know, for pedantry's sake...

Monsters don't use their own treasure by default, just what's in their statblock. And what's in their statblock is "50 greatswords". They could spend 5 minutes making them magic +5, which boosts their attack routine a bit against the fighter, but not the commoner, and it just means that instead of Starmantle 100% countering them, it only 99.75% counters them. Yeah that's kinda silly, but it's how the game works.

MaxiDuRaritry

2021-01-18, 03:02 PM

<Snip>Also give it a special quality such that any time it is called or summoned, it can act on its own accord, unbeholden to the one who brought it there. That way you can't just gate it in and force it to fight for you. You have to convince it to do so, and the hecatoncheires do not like that, so they tend to be unfriendly, at least. Oh, and they're immune to the auto-successes of Diplomacy checks, have maxed out ranks in Diplomacy (unlike their canonical, and pitiful, +13), and instead make opposed Diplomacy checks just to see if they immediately attack the summoner.

Biffoniacus_Furiou

2021-01-18, 03:26 PM

It gets Greater Magic Weapon at will at CL 50, so it can make all its swords +5 for two days at a time without dropping >5m gp in loot.

AvatarVecna

2021-01-18, 03:34 PM

Come on Avatar, you know you want to calculate this by hand to settle the matter for certain. It's only 11 multiplications, and the numbers don't get over 91 decimal places. That's doable.

2, 037, 035, 976, 334, 486, 086, 268, 445, 588, 409, 378, 161, 051, 468, 393, 665, 936, 250, 636, 140, 449, 354, 381, 299, 763, 336, 676, 183, 397, 376, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000

So if you let the hecatoncheires make 100 attacks against my medium commoner (which is still cheating), and you ran through the encounter this many times, in one of those universes every single attack crits, and I flub the Starmantle save against each one, and end up taking 4500 damage, which is about twice my HP. And it still doesn't matter because I'm immune to dying from HP damage. It's just useful to know that that's the amount of insane luck and cheating it'd take for this thing to even get close to "killing" that commoner.

That's an hour of my life I'm never getting back.

Biggus

2021-01-19, 12:55 AM

Three's very little info about the mythical hekatoncheires, but what little we do get involves them throwing "stone the size of mountains, 100 at a time", and being on a level where they're an actual boon to have in combat between deific figures. You wanna make them worth their CR a bit more?

[...]

2) Colossal+ size, like some epic dragons get to be. They're the greatest of the giants, they shouldn't be smaller than lots of other giants, and they shouldn't be cage-able by a Widened Forcecage anymore than a normal one.

You can't Widen Forcecage:

You can alter a burst, emanation, line, or spread shaped spell to increase its area. Any numeric measurements of the spell’s area increase by 100%.A widened spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

Spells that do not have an area of one of these four sorts are not affected by this feat.

which is why I said "I've made it gargantuan (so too big for Forcecage)". However, given that quote about them throwing stones the size of mountains, yes they should clearly be colossal (colossal+ wouldn't really do anything as far as I can see).

Monsters don't use their own treasure by default, just what's in their statblock. And what's in their statblock is "50 greatswords". They could spend 5 minutes making them magic +5, which boosts their attack routine a bit against the fighter, but not the commoner, and it just means that instead of Starmantle 100% countering them, it only 99.75% counters them. Yeah that's kinda silly, but it's how the game works.

OK, I could have phrased that better. What I meant was "as it only takes them 5 minutes out of 50 hours to make all their greatswords +5, presumably they will keep them at that all the time. As far as I know weapons under the effect of GMW are functionally identical to weapons with permanent enhancement bonuses, so why did you say "Or rather that'd be the case if it was wielding magic greatswords, which it isn't, but let's pretend it is"? What's the difference?".

Also give it a special quality such that any time it is called or summoned, it can act on its own accord, unbeholden to the one who brought it there. That way you can't just gate it in and force it to fight for you. You have to convince it to do so, and the hecatoncheires do not like that, so they tend to be unfriendly, at least. Oh, and they're immune to the auto-successes of Diplomacy checks, have maxed out ranks in Diplomacy (unlike their canonical, and pitiful, +13), and instead make opposed Diplomacy checks just to see if they immediately attack the summoner.

Considering that in mythology there were only three of them, and that they're divine rank 0 if deity rules are in play, they probably should come under the unique being/deities rule for creatures which can't be commanded with Gate anyway.

AvatarVecna

2021-01-19, 01:12 AM

OK, I could have phrased that better. What I meant was "as it only takes them 5 minutes out of 50 hours to make all their greatswords +5, presumably they will keep them at that all the time. As far as I know weapons under the effect of GMW are functionally identical to weapons with permanent enhancement bonuses, so why did you say "Or rather that'd be the case if it was wielding magic greatswords, which it isn't, but let's pretend it is"? What's the difference?".

The difference is that I assume the way they're intended to be played is as competent as the way they're built, and you assume something else based on...good faith? Idk I just don't really feel like giving WotC much credit, and particularly with the commoner we're talking the difference between 100% immune and 99.75% immune anyway.

MaxiDuRaritry

2021-01-19, 01:38 AM

Considering that in mythology there were only three of them, and that they're divine rank 0 if deity rules are in play, they probably should come under the unique being/deities rule for creatures which can't be commanded with Gate anyway.At the very least, hecatoncheires can summon other hecatoncheires, so that would still have its place.

There are other creatures, such as a few demon lords, that can do the same thing. There needs to be a reason why such creatures don't just summon these things whenever it's convenient.

Biggus

2021-01-19, 03:27 AM

The difference is that I assume the way they're intended to be played is as competent as the way they're built, and you assume something else based on...good faith? Idk I just don't really feel like giving WotC much credit

Fair comment...

rel

2021-01-19, 07:46 PM

An interesting alternative to giving a creature that is meant to be big enough to throw mountains a stat block is to model it as terrain or even as a dungeon unto itself.

Under this paradigm, the players might fight heads, arms or maybe giant size parasites as creatures with stat blocks but the monster itself is the landscape through which the players travel, no more affectable through the normal human scale combat system than a great lake or mountain range.

Defeating such a monster will likely involve something more esoteric than coming up with a clever combination of spells and powers or dealing truly ludicrous amounts of damage. Although such tactics will probably suffice to drive it off at least temporarily.

Simultaneously piercing all its many hearts, finding and destroying the 'core' hidden deep within its body or slaying it's multiple souls (which are ofcourse a bunch of unique boss monsters living on or inside it and making full use of the home ground advantage that entails) are all good possibilities for a true victory.

RNightstalker

2021-01-20, 09:43 PM

To counter these, I've made it gargantuan (so too big for Forcecage), given its boulders a long range and given it (and all abominations) a +10 insight bonus to initiative (as in PF where quite a few of the top-tier monsters get it).

It needs two more feats; one because it has one too few for a 52HD monster, and one because Multidexterity is obsolete in 3.5.

I'm also considering increasing its Con and DR to reduce the chance of it being killed before it even gets an attack.

Its Will save is also low for a CR57 monster. It's immune to mind-affecting, but that still leaves it vulnerable to things like Glitterdust and Harm.

When you say long range, you mean? A Stone Giant's range is 180 ft. for rocks; anything less for the Hecaton would be an insult.
I think the insight bonus is a good thing, though I think incorporating the paragon template from the ELH would be quite appropriate.
I agree it's short on feats, even with the 3.5 update it should still have quite a few more feats, regular and epic.

I'm not sure how the designers expected you to run a creature with 100 attacks per round but I don't think it's practical.
I suggest rebuilding it from scratch around it's most interesting feature, it's insane numbers of extra heads and limbs.

Treat each head mechanically as a separate creature whenever that happens to be convenient for the monster.

Throw a single target spell at it, you /killed / disabled / whatever a single head. The remaining 49 and the rest of the monster are just fine thanks.
This can be fluffed as the spell killing the head as intended for something like enervation or a head sucking up the effect with a great intake of breath then supernaturally wilting for more esoteric things like forcecage or imprisonment.

You could also make the multiple heads a defence against HP damage, more than say 50HP in one go kills a head but only deals exactly 50 HP of damage.
Sir Critsalot slaps it for 1 million damage? Congrats, cross of 50 HP and one of the heads.

Next give it some capacity to operate outside the normal turn structure; extra turns, extra actions, special counter attack or interrupt abilites and some sort of extreme mobility powers stemming from its forrest of limbs

Then, instead of ridiculous numbers of extra attacks give the monster a few thematically appropriate abilities to represent its legion of limbs.

showy special attacks like sonic AOE's to represent the arms clapping or the heads braying in perfect unison.

Powerful single target effects representing it leaping on a single foe and pummels them into the ground with uncountable blows

lesser but everpresent environmental effects caused by a constant rain of projectiles and insults

maybe the ability to spawn new monsters as a head and a pair of arms literally pops free from the main body and starts wandering around threatening people.

I like most of that...I think incorporating Robilar's Gambit would be a great asset.

Any idea what its actual CR should be? I thought maybe about 47, but it's pretty hard to estimate when there are so few things to compare it to.

I'm going to talk to a buddy...he was saying a wizard in his 20's could take him down, not later than 30's.

Three's very little info about the mythical hekatoncheires, but what little we do get involves them throwing "stone the size of mountains, 100 at a time", and being on a level where they're an actual boon to have in combat between deific figures. You wanna make them worth their CR a bit more?

1) Give them divine rank, as most abominations should have. A pile of appropriate SLAs.

2) Colossal+ size, like some epic dragons get to be. They're the greatest of the giants, they shouldn't be smaller than lots of other giants, and they shouldn't be cage-able by a Widened Forcecage anymore than a normal one.

3) That earlier suggestion about having it be 50 statblocks combined into one? Yeah that'd probably work out pretty well. 50 health pools, to give them resistance to massive damage PCs/SoDs. 100 sets of actions (2 each, it'll make sense later), to wreck the action economy in a way a CR 57 creature should actually be capable of.

4) Make all 50 of the creatures that are glued together be about CR 44 on their own, and Hulking Hurlers.

5) Allow them to make iteratives when hurling more normal improvised weapons up to what would count as two-handed for a creature of their size.

6) Give them Distant Shot and Uncanny Accuracy epic feats for ranged goodies.

7) Give them a thing where if something would allow a target to auto-avoid their rocks (deflection, redirection, tactical teleportation...whatever), the target has to succeed on CL check vs your Attack roll for the thing to let them avoid the rock - otherwise, they've gotta rely on just their AC to avoid the boulder.

8) Anything wielded by a hecatoncheires counts as magic, epic any alignment, and any material for the purposes of bypassing DR/regen.

9) It's a deific being of absurd strength. **** it, give em the ability to sunder ongoing magic effects with their attacks.

...

4+5 means that their combat options are:

A) 100 Full Round Actions: Four hundred melee or ranged attacks with "small" improvised objects, each weighing up to 1600 lbs, which deals either 11d6 base damage (if it's blunt-ish), or 19d6 (if it's sharp/pointy); alternatively, fewer attacks, and they mix in some SLAs. This is how they engage massive armies of weaklings.

B) 100 Standards + 100 moves: One hundred attacks as in A, but they also get to move 100 times; alternatively, fewer attacks, and they mix in some SLAs. This will give them absurd mobility and let them use SLAs to dispel anything that has any business being near them.

C) 100 Full Round Actions: Overburdened Heave x100. 100 attacks, range is line of sight, weight is 546133 lbs each, and deals 2733d6 damage each. This is how they engage small armies of epic characters. This is assuming Str 50 and Colossal+

...

7+8+C means that a hecatoncheires is one of the things that's actually maybe able to ORKO another hecatoncheires, which can explain why they're loathe to summon each other.

You're definitely on to something with the divine rank, especially considering the text of its description says how entire pantheons would fall against them when they were released.

An interesting alternative to giving a creature that is meant to be big enough to throw mountains a stat block is to model it as terrain or even as a dungeon unto itself.

Under this paradigm, the players might fight heads, arms or maybe giant size parasites as creatures with stat blocks but the monster itself is the landscape through which the players travel, no more affectable through the normal human scale combat system than a great lake or mountain range.

Defeating such a monster will likely involve something more esoteric than coming up with a clever combination of spells and powers or dealing truly ludicrous amounts of damage. Although such tactics will probably suffice to drive it off at least temporarily.

Simultaneously piercing all its many hearts, finding and destroying the 'core' hidden deep within its body or slaying it's multiple souls (which are ofcourse a bunch of unique boss monsters living on or inside it and making full use of the home ground advantage that entails) are all good possibilities for a true victory.

Now this is what I imagine a good epic campaign would be composed of.

Biggus

2021-01-21, 01:53 AM

When you say long range, you mean? A Stone Giant's range is 180 ft. for rocks; anything less for the Hecaton would be an insult.

I haven't actually decided for sure, which is why I didn't specify. Agreed that 180ft range increment should be a minimum; in another thread InvisibleBison suggested double that, as the Hecatoncheires has much higher Str than a Stone Giant. I might go even higher, as a 57th-level caster's range with long-range spells is going to be over 2600ft even without Enlarge Spell, which they can very easily afford to get with Metamagic Rods.

I'm going to talk to a buddy...he was saying a wizard in his 20's could take him down, not later than 30's.

Certainly a well-optimized Wizard could take one down by level 30ish; as Biffoniacus_Furiou pointed out earlier in the thread, a 21st-level Cleric could do it in fact.

But CR isn't based on highly-optimized characters; if it were, no epic creature (other than those able to cast 9th-level spells themselves) would have a CR much above 21. As far as I can tell, CR is based on an assumption of players who are not absolute beginners, but who aren't in any way serious optimizers.

Aharon

2021-01-21, 04:47 AM

It's difficult to say what such a creature should look like to be a suitable threat for its level because it's difficult to say what a lvl 57 game should play like.

You're using tons of custom magic items - isn't that usually frowned upon in Theoretical Optimization, because the item creation rules contain a lot of handwaving and explicitly tell the DM to set a price he thinks is reasonable? (DMG page 282 - Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some DM judgment calls. Use good sense hwen assigning prices, using the items in this book as example).

Also, these discussions usually ignore that the Hecatoncheires also have Standard Treasure for a CR 57 creature, which is worth about 2.7 million GP. Even randomly generated treasure worth that amount will contain some magic items that help the Hecatoncheires during the encounter.

Generated here: https://www.myth-weavers.com/generate_treasure.php?do=treasure

ARMOR
large steel shield +4 (fire resistance) (34,170 gp)
large steel shield +5 (25,170 gp)
tower shield +3 (9,180 gp)
ART
meteoric iron chainmail shirt, AC +7, well-oiled and triple-linked (764.5 gp)
POTION
potion of cure serious wounds (750 gp)
chocolate-colored
milky odor/taste
watery, opaque appearance
potion of greater magic fang +2 (1,200 gp)
sapphire-colored
fiery odor/taste
oily, flecked appearance
potion of greater magic weapon +2 (1,200 gp)
azure-colored
burning/biting odor/taste
watery, flecked appearance
RING
ring of friend shield (pair) (50,000 gp)
ring of spell storing (50,000 gp)
- Magic Vestment
- Neutralize Poison
ring of spell turning (98,280 gp)
ring of telekinesis (75,000 gp)
ring of three wishes (2 charges) (65,300 gp)
ROD
rod of metamagic, silent, greater (24,500 gp)
rod of rulership (60,000 gp)
SCROLL
arcane (4,650 gp)
Polymorph Any Object (l8, cl15)
Move Earth (l6, cl11)
arcane (5,550 gp)
Dismissal (l5, cl9)
Wall of Iron (l5, cl9)
Chain Lightning (l6, cl11)
Repulsion (l6, cl11)
arcane (5,550 gp)
Mind Fog (l5, cl9)
Analyze Dweomer (l6, cl11)
Cone of Cold (l5, cl9)
Control Water (l6, cl11)
arcane (7,650 gp)
Control Water (l6, cl11)
Incendiary Cloud (l8, cl15)
Summon Monster VIII (l8, cl15)
arcane (10,425 gp)
Mind Blank (l8, cl15)
Incendiary Cloud (l8, cl15)
Globe of Invulnerability (l6, cl11)
True Seeing (l6, cl11)
Telekinesis (l5, cl9)
divine (4,775 gp)
Wall of Thorns (l5, cl9)
Greater Magic Weapon (l4, cl7)
Command, Greater (l5, cl9)
Giant Vermin (l4, cl7)
Wall of Fire (l5, cl9)
divine (5,025 gp)
Slay Living (l5, cl9)
Righteous Might (l5, cl9)
Wall of Stone (l5, cl9)
Word of Recall (l6, cl11)
divine (6,375 gp)
Repel Metal or Stone (l8, cl15)
Wall of Fire (l5, cl9)
Insect Plague (l5, cl9)
Wall of Thorns (l5, cl9)
STAFF
staff of conjuration (19 charges) (24,700 gp)
CURSE: possessor must bathe item in volcanic lava once per month
something provides some clue to the staff's function
staff of defense (18 charges) (20,980.8 gp)
something provides some clue to the staff's function
staff of earth and stone (35 charges) (56,350 gp)
something provides some clue to the staff's function
staff of earth and stone (24 charges) (38,640 gp)
something provides some clue to the staff's function
staff of evocation (41 charges) (53,300 gp)
staff of evocation (24 charges) (31,200 gp)
staff of frost (30 charges) (33,750 gp)
staff of frost (32 charges) (36,000 gp)
staff of illusion (49 charges) (63,700 gp)
staff of transmutation (37 charges) (48,100 gp)
WAND
Order's Wrath (l4, cl8) (3 charges) (1,440 gp)
Restoration (l4, cl7) (12 charges) (6,240 gp)
WEAPON
rapier +4 (32,320 gp)
throwing axe +4 (44,308 gp)
Int: 16 (3)
Wis: 7 (-2)
Cha: 15 (2)
Ego: 19
Communication: speech and telepathy
Reading: all languages, and can read magic
Alignment: lawful good
Languages:
common
aquan
elven
orc
'bless' allies (3 per day)
'major image' (1 per day)
'darkness' (3 per day)
'cause fear' in an enemy at will
lesser globe of invulnerability (1 per day)
WONDROUS ITEM
chaos diamond (93,000 gp)
something provides a clue to its function
crystal ball with see invisibility (50,000 gp)
something provides a clue to its function
gloves of dexterity (+6) (36,000 gp)
helm of telepathy (31,000 gp)
manual of bodily health (+3) (82,500 gp)
something provides a clue to its function
scarab of protection (38,000 gp)
something provides a clue to its function
tome of leadership and influence (+4) (110,000 gp)
tome of understanding (+4) (110,000 gp)
-------------------
TOTAL VALUE: 1,645,887.3 gp

execution time: 0.22 sec.

random seed: 1611224262

In this case, much of the treasure is useless, but the ring of three wishes could be used in battle...

AvatarVecna

2021-01-21, 05:41 AM

You're using tons of custom magic items - isn't that usually frowned upon in Theoretical Optimization, because the item creation rules contain a lot of handwaving and explicitly tell the DM to set a price he thinks is reasonable? (DMG page 282 - Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staffs follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some DM judgment calls. Use good sense hwen assigning prices, using the items in this book as example).

The second build is custom items, the first build is WotC items just scaled up. Even the custom stuff isn't frowned upon in theorycrafting, it's just frowned upon at most actual tables, and generally not allowed.

And that's...kinda the exact point I'm making there?

The closest we have to an objective measure of how powerful a CR 57 fight "should" be is that a PC of level [X] counts as CR of level [X] as well. Since a PC fighting themselves is the definition of an even match, and two creatures of the same CR should be just as challenging to face, we can conclude a PC of level [X] and a monster of CR [X] fight, then generally it should be an even match. So, what should a CR 57 monster look like? Well, they should be as powerful as a level 57 character. They should be able to go toe-to-toe with a PC of that level, and have it be close-ish to a coinflip on who wins. So how powerful is a level 57 character? It's literally impossible to say. The fighter build I through together is a bit cooler than WotC standard stuff, but not that much cooler, and he's doing a pretty good job against Big H. But that Fighter is also not nearly as powerful as you could build a PC of that level.

You could make a Cleric 21 who has "Permanent Emanation: Greater Consumptive Field" who's run through a few towns worth of weak demons and now has Str 1 million and twice that many temp HP. Big H attacks and hits everything, but who cares they deal like 5000 damage assuming they get 100 crits, and then your Saitama cleric one-punches them into dust. Even if we pretend Big H is an even match for that, does that make them CR 21? Probably not.

You could have a Commoner 1 who got filthy stinking rich and purchased a ring of infinite wishing, and they've been sitting in a corner wishing that their ring could grant more powerful wishes for 2 hours. Now every time they use the wishing ring to make a wish, it's got like a 1 billion XP limit, and they're essentially just wishing up items that can do basically literally anything. Does that make Big H CR 1, since they can get beaten by any schmuck with enough money? Probably not, but even if you forbid using the item creation rules like that, you can still always use a candle of invocation to kickstart the exact same thing. That costs 8400 gp and lets you gate in genies that will let you planar binding more genies that will let you...and so on. But we can't set the maximum CR for all creatures at...whatever level we decide that 8400 gp is a reasonable amount to spend on a single item.

Epic Spellcasting can be abused to create literally any effect, and with enough effort put in, you can not only craft basically any effect for free, but actually make use of it. But we can't just say that everything past CR 21 is impossible because nothing can be more challenging than a wizard 21 with epic spellcasting.

All of these examples, they're cheesing things pretty hard with infinite loops and NI stuff and free effects. But you don't need that to beat Big H, you just need big numbers. TWF Rogue 57 is looking at 8 attacks per round (including a speed weapon), dealing 29d6 per attack just from SA. That's DPR 812 before even touching weapon enchantments or feats or even just the basic damage the weapon deals.

Wizard 57 gets 25 epic feats; with Enhance Spell 5, Intensify Spell, Improved Metamagic 7, and Improved Spell Capacity 10, he's still got 2 left but that's enough for him to throw out a Twinned Intensified Enhanced "Orb Of Force". That's assuming that Improved Metamagic and Enhance spell interact in the least useful way, and it's still somebody with BAB +28 who needs to hit Touch AC 28 twice in order to deal two bursts of 684 each. Assuming he's spent a single measly 9th lvl spell on having access to the form that let's him go first in combat regardless of initiative, or assuming he's put basically any work into building up his own initiative score (a few feats, some Dex boosting...it doesn't take much to get better initiative than Big H), the wizard gets to shoot first and Big H is too busy choking on blood-filled lungs to take its turn. No Arcane Thesis, no favorable interpretations, no Reserves Of Strength to make this way easier, just a blaster wizard annihilating a monster who is supposed to be a 50/50 fight for them.

"What CR should this be" is difficult to answer because we need a standard. The closest actual objective measure the CR system has for determining CR is "what level PC is this as challenging as to fight". And how powerful a PC is can vary so wildly that it's impossible to say. Is a commoner 57 with normal feats and items the standard? Probably not. Is a wizard 57 who can literally unmake and remake all of reality as an immediate action the standard? Probably not. But there's an awful lot of room in between those two extremes.

AvatarVecna

2021-01-21, 05:45 AM

Also, these discussions usually ignore that the Hecatoncheires also have Standard Treasure for a CR 57 creature, which is worth about 2.7 million GP. Even randomly generated treasure worth that amount will contain some magic items that help the Hecatoncheires during the encounter.

You are correct that it's illogical to ignore that monsters have a great deal of treasure that could very well be incredibly useful in a fight. I don't disagree with that statement. However, I also don't make the rules:

Treasure
This line reflects how much wealth the creature owns. In most cases, a creature keeps valuables in its home or lair and has no treasure with it when it travels. Intelligent creatures that own useful, portable treasure (such as magic items) tend to carry and use these, leaving bulky items at home.

Under WotC treasure hoards (as you've demonstrated), this realistically ends up meaning that 99% of the treasure just isn't useful in a fight - some scrolls and potions, some magic armor that probably doesn't fit. It's a hoard of random stuff. A lot of epic monsters, especially intelligent ones that lack casting, would be a lot better off if they had a maximum GP value for their CR and could buy appropriate items based on that amount. You'd end up with hoards that look a lot less like hoards, but you'd also end up with monsters that aren't absolute crap and maybe have a trick or two up their hundred sleeves.

Eldariel

2021-01-21, 05:52 AM

AvatarVecna

2021-01-21, 05:58 AM

I built a Cleric 11 charger (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?314454-3-5-Cleric-Charger) who could one-shot it (while also being immune to damage among other things) - no custom items or some such. It's not the lowest level to kill it: you can achieve immunity to damage by level 7 the very latest depending on how much abuse you want. I went without Consumptive Field, which seriously limits the numbers, but even among all the broken spells in the game, Consumptive Field stands out as something especially problematic, so I just opted to not to instead. Incantatrix could probably do it on level 8-9 by virtue of getting access to many of the key buffs earlier.

It's worth noting that it does have Abomination immunities so things like Enervation do nothing to it. You basically have to either Orb it to death or use an attack of some kind. Or Magic Jar it I guess, that bypasses basically all immunities.

*nodnod*

Was gonna make a cheeky answer about Hulking Hurler, but I think I'd have to put in more serious effort to kill it without targeting Touch AC. Could definitely get the damage without too much effort or cheese, I think. Would be amusing to outhurl them without having to be epic.

Gemini476

2021-01-21, 06:34 AM

Keep in mind that, ultimately, the game is balanced around a core-plus-this-book game (or sometimes "core plus this book plus the book this is a sequel to", when it comes to some of the Complete X ones).

So when it comes to fighty monsters in the ELH, the assumption is that they're supposed to be roughly a 50/50 fight against an equal-level core+ELH Fighter with level-appropriate non-custom gear.

Or, as the case may be, that *two* hecatonchieres are a 50/50 fight with said fighter. They can summon another without increasing the encounter level, after all.

Monsters don't use their own treasure by default, just what's in their statblock. And what's in their statblock is "50 greatswords". They could spend 5 minutes making them magic +5, which boosts their attack routine a bit against the fighter, but not the commoner, and it just means that instead of Starmantle 100% countering them, it only 99.75% counters them. Yeah that's kinda silly, but it's how the game works.

That's not entirely correct, actually:

Monsters With Treasure
The standard way to acquire treasure is to defeat enemies that possess it, guard it, or happen to be near it.
[...]
When generating an encounter dealing with monsters away from their lair (a patrol, a wandering creature, and so on), remember that a creature only takes what it can easily carry with it.
[...]
Example: [The PCs encounter gnolls outside the dungeon.] Each gnoll has a smattering of coins or gems on its person. The leader has the masterwork greatsword from the group's hoard and uses it in the battle. The majority of the gnolls' treasure, however, remains in their lair[.]

Custom Treasures
You may wish to build a custom treasure for the toughest monsters, the head of the conspiracy, the leader of the mercenary army, or other special encounter. [You choose the items rather than rolling.]
When you do so, spend no more than half the treasure value for the encounter on items that might be used up during the encounter.
NPCs also get gear, of course, but "NPC" here specifically means "those guys with class levels in chapter 4".

The Epic Level Handbook also says that, since at Epic levels "a single unusual result can affect campaign balance", "you will probably want to determine epic treasures using at least some nonrandom factors" (p.122). On page 125 it even says outright that "by the time your campaign reaches the point of including epic magic items as treasure, you probably shouldn't rely on randomly generated magic items in hoards."

Hence why in the Hecatonchieres' description it says "sometimes a hecatonchieres is armed with one or more magic weapons, as well" (p.163).

Aharon

2021-01-21, 08:53 AM

I built a Cleric 11 charger (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?314454-3-5-Cleric-Charger) who could one-shot it (while also being immune to damage among other things) - no custom items or some such. It's not the lowest level to kill it: you can achieve immunity to damage by level 7 the very latest depending on how much abuse you want. I went without Consumptive Field, which seriously limits the numbers, but even among all the broken spells in the game, Consumptive Field stands out as something especially problematic, so I just opted to not to instead. Incantatrix could probably do it on level 8-9 by virtue of getting access to many of the key buffs earlier.

It's worth noting that it does have Abomination immunities so things like Enervation do nothing to it. You basically have to either Orb it to death or use an attack of some kind. Or Magic Jar it I guess, that bypasses basically all immunities.

That build doesn't completely conform to the rules. To craft the nightsticks himself, the character needs Extra Turning in addition to Craft Rod. (That's an easy one, though - just take that instead of MWP:Longbow).

Also Delay Death and Beastland Ferocity don't protect from Death from Massive damage, so each critical the hecatoncheires scores is a 5% chance of death.

Knowledge Devotion works for this specific foe (the character can take knowledge:Planes up to 10), but with Int 10, they will have a hard time bringing six knowledge skills to +10.

That's just from taking a short look, there might be more.

rel

2021-01-21, 11:44 AM

Now this is what I imagine a good epic campaign would be composed of.

I think that approach has merit long before epic levels.
Even with the best of intentions from everyone, the game starts to fall apart once the players get into the two digit levels. The spellcasters get access to the really powerful higher level spells, WBL goes crazy and even the completely mundane characters have achieved the pinnacle of whatever combo they were building towards.

Meanwhile monster numbers just keep on climbing and any defense or skill challenge that hasn't been optimised is likely to fail outright.

Actually running consistent exciting encounters in that environment requires a tremendous amount of cooperation and work on both sides of the table.

Eldariel

2021-01-22, 01:43 PM

That build doesn't completely conform to the rules. To craft the nightsticks himself, the character needs Extra Turning in addition to Craft Rod. (That's an easy one, though - just take that instead of MWP:Longbow).

Also Delay Death and Beastland Ferocity don't protect from Death from Massive damage, so each critical the hecatoncheires scores is a 5% chance of death.

Knowledge Devotion works for this specific foe (the character can take knowledge:Planes up to 10), but with Int 10, they will have a hard time bringing six knowledge skills to +10.

That's just from taking a short look, there might be more.

It's pretty free to go Cloistered Cleric making the skill points something of a non-issue. It's true that you should bother with some way to protect against crits if massive damage rules are being used: as a default I kinda just assume they aren't. It's possible to alleviate the Con saves via rerolls and there's ways to even be immune to nat 1 in that regard.

Good point on the Extra Turning. That was a quick build (that is to say, built out of memory rather than through source referencing) mostly to illustrate that you can certainly build a functional charger as a Cleric too, so there's probably some minor issues there but ultimately those are pretty trivial to correct.