gogogome
2021-01-18, 12:49 AM
This is a discussion that spawned from another thread. The OP of that thread asked us to make a new thread and take the discussion there so I am doing that.
You learn to use a supernatural ability of an assumed form.
Prerequisite
WIS 13, ability to assume a new form magically,
Required for
Improved Assume Supernatural Ability (SS) ,
Benefit
You learn to use a single supernatural ability of another kind of creature while assuming its form through a polymorph self spell or a similar effect. The saving throw DC against this ability is based on your ability scores, not those of a standard creature of the kind whose form you've assumed. For a breath weapon, the saving throw DC is 10 + your Constitution modifier + 1/2 your Hit Dice (rounded down). For all other supernatural abilities, the saving throw (if any) DC is 10 + your Charisma modifier + 1/2 your Hit Dice (rounded down). If a creature, such as an undead, has no Constitution score, use its Charisma modifier or its Constitution modifier (+0 for a nonability), whichever is higher, to determine the save DC. Using this alien ability is disorienting. You take a -2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. Additionally, in a stressful or demanding situation (such as combat), you must succeed on a Will save (DC 19) or be unable to use the ability.
So the argument is that some people believe that
"polymorph self spell or a similar effect."
is saying that Assume Supernatural Ability only works with "polymorph effects". Because "similar effects" is referencing polymorph and only polymorph. So in order for Assume Supernatural Ability to work, you must assume a new form magically with a Polymorph effect.
"similar effects" = "polymorph effect"
So what is a "Polymorph Effect?"
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm
Polymorph
Magic can cause creatures and characters to change their shapes—sometimes against their will, but usually to gain an advantage. Polymorphed creatures retain their own minds but have new physical forms.
The polymorph spell defines the general polymorph effect.
Unless stated otherwise, creatures can polymorph into forms of the same type or into an aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin form. Most spells and abilities that grant the ability to polymorph place a cap on the Hit Dice of the form taken.
Polymorphed creatures gain the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution of their new forms, as well as size, extraordinary special attacks, movement capabilities (to a maximum of 120 feet for flying and 60 for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons, racial skill bonuses, and other gross physical qualities such as appearance and number of limbs. They retain their original class and level, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, hit points, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and alignment.
Creatures who polymorph keep their worn or held equipment if the new form is capable of wearing or holding it. Otherwise, it melds with the new form and ceases to function for the duration of the polymorph.
So any ability that doesn't fall under this, or PHBII's polymorph subschool, does not work with Assume Supernatural Ability. This includes Wild Shape, Alternate Form, Change Shape, Minor Change Shape, Alter Shape, and all the other ways of transforming into another creature without using a "polymorph effect".
Now my belief is that "similar effects" means "assuming a new form magically" because the first line of the feat and the feat prerequisite asks for an ability to assume a new form magically, not polymorph. So as long as an ability is magical and says you can assume a new form, you can use Assume Supernatural Ability with it. Polymorph is simply an example of a way to assume a new form magically.
"similar effect" = "assuming a new form magically".
In addition Rules Compendium p.24-26 has a section about Changing Forms, and lumps Alternate Form, Change Shape, Alter self, Animal Shapes, Baleful Polymorph, Polymorph, Shapechange, A Thousand Faces, and Wild Shape all together under the same category of effects. That is the very definition of "similar".
So in your opinion, what does "similar effects" mean?
Does it mean specifically Polymorph?
Or does it mean anything that magically lets you assume a new form?
EDIT:
I forgot to include a third Argument.
We also had some people say "similar effect" means something with the same power as polymorph. So no Alter Self, but yes to Wild Shape.
Is this the correct interpretation?
You learn to use a supernatural ability of an assumed form.
Prerequisite
WIS 13, ability to assume a new form magically,
Required for
Improved Assume Supernatural Ability (SS) ,
Benefit
You learn to use a single supernatural ability of another kind of creature while assuming its form through a polymorph self spell or a similar effect. The saving throw DC against this ability is based on your ability scores, not those of a standard creature of the kind whose form you've assumed. For a breath weapon, the saving throw DC is 10 + your Constitution modifier + 1/2 your Hit Dice (rounded down). For all other supernatural abilities, the saving throw (if any) DC is 10 + your Charisma modifier + 1/2 your Hit Dice (rounded down). If a creature, such as an undead, has no Constitution score, use its Charisma modifier or its Constitution modifier (+0 for a nonability), whichever is higher, to determine the save DC. Using this alien ability is disorienting. You take a -2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. Additionally, in a stressful or demanding situation (such as combat), you must succeed on a Will save (DC 19) or be unable to use the ability.
So the argument is that some people believe that
"polymorph self spell or a similar effect."
is saying that Assume Supernatural Ability only works with "polymorph effects". Because "similar effects" is referencing polymorph and only polymorph. So in order for Assume Supernatural Ability to work, you must assume a new form magically with a Polymorph effect.
"similar effects" = "polymorph effect"
So what is a "Polymorph Effect?"
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm
Polymorph
Magic can cause creatures and characters to change their shapes—sometimes against their will, but usually to gain an advantage. Polymorphed creatures retain their own minds but have new physical forms.
The polymorph spell defines the general polymorph effect.
Unless stated otherwise, creatures can polymorph into forms of the same type or into an aberration, animal, dragon, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, plant, or vermin form. Most spells and abilities that grant the ability to polymorph place a cap on the Hit Dice of the form taken.
Polymorphed creatures gain the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution of their new forms, as well as size, extraordinary special attacks, movement capabilities (to a maximum of 120 feet for flying and 60 for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons, racial skill bonuses, and other gross physical qualities such as appearance and number of limbs. They retain their original class and level, Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, hit points, base attack bonus, base save bonuses, and alignment.
Creatures who polymorph keep their worn or held equipment if the new form is capable of wearing or holding it. Otherwise, it melds with the new form and ceases to function for the duration of the polymorph.
So any ability that doesn't fall under this, or PHBII's polymorph subschool, does not work with Assume Supernatural Ability. This includes Wild Shape, Alternate Form, Change Shape, Minor Change Shape, Alter Shape, and all the other ways of transforming into another creature without using a "polymorph effect".
Now my belief is that "similar effects" means "assuming a new form magically" because the first line of the feat and the feat prerequisite asks for an ability to assume a new form magically, not polymorph. So as long as an ability is magical and says you can assume a new form, you can use Assume Supernatural Ability with it. Polymorph is simply an example of a way to assume a new form magically.
"similar effect" = "assuming a new form magically".
In addition Rules Compendium p.24-26 has a section about Changing Forms, and lumps Alternate Form, Change Shape, Alter self, Animal Shapes, Baleful Polymorph, Polymorph, Shapechange, A Thousand Faces, and Wild Shape all together under the same category of effects. That is the very definition of "similar".
So in your opinion, what does "similar effects" mean?
Does it mean specifically Polymorph?
Or does it mean anything that magically lets you assume a new form?
EDIT:
I forgot to include a third Argument.
We also had some people say "similar effect" means something with the same power as polymorph. So no Alter Self, but yes to Wild Shape.
Is this the correct interpretation?