Belkar/ the Oracle's prophecy/ sexy shoeless god of war

[Tatafornow]

Hello All,

What is the thinking on whether Belkar will die and become a sexy shoeless (and literal) god of war, i.e. become a god and progress the plot in that way, perhaps through voting in a second godsmoot?

(My question is partially inspired by his sexy shoelessness being more than a memorable throwaway line - see its use at and up to comic 610.)

I have made an account to ask this question, so apologies if there is already a thread on it! If there is I would really appreciate a link.

Many thanks!

[Ionathus]

I'd bet against him being relevant to the Godsmoot. The tie vote at the Godsmoot seems like a plot point for the events of Utterly Dwarfed but not relevant to the comic as a whole or the last book in particular.

Start of Darkness talks a bit about the Dark One's ascension to godhood, and it looks like you need a lot of mortals believing in you and dedicated to your cause. Belkar isn't really a leader or influential beyond "you're afraid of me if you're within reach of my daggers" so that would be a hard barrier to surmount.

[InvisibleBison]

The main flaw with this argument is that Belkar is just not all that impressive a warrior. Sure, he can kick the asses of a bunch of low-level mooks, but Roy is able to pretty (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0748.html) easily (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1127.html) defeat him when they clash. He certainly doesn't seem to have the level of martial skill that would earn divinity.

Even if he is enough of a badass to become some sort of war god, though, badassery probably isn't enough for apotheosis. the only instance of divine ascension that we know the details of is the Dark One's and he didn't do it on his own - it was the efforts of a huge army of goblinoids rampaging around the world slaughtering in his name for over a year that actually turned him into a god. It seems that being worshiped is essential to becoming a god, and there's no one who worships Belkar.

[WanderingMist]

Start of Darkness talks a bit about the Dark One's ascension to godhood, and it looks like you need a lot of mortals believing in you and dedicated to your cause.
That, OR, as Thor said, sponsorship from an already existing pantheon.

The question is: Is The Dark One the type of god to sponsor Banjo and Giggles, the true saviors of the Stickverse?

[Peelee]

Let's assume, for the moment, that Belkar did become a deity.

Even if he could vote in the Godsmoot, they'd still need to wait on Dvalin, who is going to cast the deciding vote in favor of the world going on anyway, so Belkar would either have no effect if he voted against destruction or would tie it yet again if he voted for destruction. Belkar would also presumably be in the Northern pantheon, and this completely useless as far as patching the rifts, since they would still need The Dark One, who doesn't know Belkar from a hole in the ground. Finally, Belkar could do nothing about Xykon, being restricted by all the "dumb God rules" against direct action on the Material Plane.

So, if Belkar somehow became a god, it would have zero impact on the story.

Belkar is not going to become a god.

[KorvinStarmast]

Let's assume, for the moment, that Belkar did become a deity. He doesn't have a high priest to attend the godsmoot for him (Hel's problem for a long time) and needs time for some plucky {pick an adventurer here, maybe a bard-rogue-sorceress from Greysky City} to get enough levels in cleric to be a high priest.

[Peelee]

He doesn't have a high priest to attend the godsmoot for him (Hel's problem for a long time) and needs time for some plucky {pick an adventurer here, maybe a bard-rogue-sorceress from Greysky City} to get enough levels in cleric to be a high priest.

That too. Frankly, I was trying to assume absolutely ideal conditions to show how even then it wouldn't really do anything to affect the story, but I flat-out forgot the high priest issue. Add that to the pile, I guess. :smallwink:

[Shirow]

That too. Frankly, I was trying to assume absolutely ideal conditions to show how even then it wouldn't really do anything to affect the story, but I flat-out forgot the high priest issue. Add that to the pile, I guess. :smallwink:

Since the prophecy states that he has to stop drawing breath, godhood could be a cool way to opt out(that or a druid reincarnates him as a sea creature). A future purple quiddity pantheon with the DO, Belkar, Giggles and Banjo could continue the spot welding of the rifts if the world doesn't end.

I wouldn't mind that as an epilogue, but yeah it is highly unlikely that it becomes a plot point.

To even out that purple pantheon though, the DO is LE, Banjo is probably Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic Good, Giggles is Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic Evil or True Neutral? So, it would be interesting if Belkar could become a Neutral Good or Lawful Good god of repentance or redemption (sorry Miko! Ha hah).

It could be. If old age and/or apotheosis award the equivalent of +4 points of wisdom. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html)

[KorvinStarmast]

It could be. If old age and/or apotheosis award the equivalent of +4 points of wisdom. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html) IIRC, becoming a vampire boost your INT by 4 (3.5e experts, please confirm or deny) so becoming a deity boosting INT by +4 seems reasonable.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Since the prophecy states that he has to stop drawing breath, godhood could be a cool way to opt out

The prophecy also implies (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html) he won't get to enjoy cake after his next birthday, and I don't see why gods wouldn't get to enjoy birthday cakes.

GW

[Kantaki]

The prophecy also implies (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html) he won't get to enjoy cake after his next birthday, and I don't see why gods wouldn't get to enjoy birthday cakes.

GW

Because they have ascension days, not birthdays.:smalltongue:

But nah, apotheosis isn't in the books for the little blight, unless he pulls something really impressive in the immediate (in-comic) future.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Because they have ascension days, not birthdays.:smalltongue:

A cake is a cake is a cake
[h/t] Gertrude Stein

GW

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't see why gods wouldn't get to enjoy birthday cakes.
Wait, don't gods eat ambrosia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrosia)?
I don't understand ambrosia(def 2) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrosia_(fruit_salad)) as cake, but with as much Iron Chef and Chopped as I've watched over the years, perhaps it can be made into one. :smallcool:

On the other hand:
Sometimes a cake, is just a cake
~ Sigmund Freund

[Metastachydium]

IIRC, becoming a vampire boost your INT by 4 (3.5e experts, please confirm or deny) so becoming a deity boosting INT by +4 seems reasonable.

It's a mere +2, but the template also gives a +2 to WIS.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's a mere +2, but the template also gives a +2 to WIS. Hmm, not sure why I posited ascension as giving INT 4, I was thinking WIS 4 for becoming a deity, but your explanation is even better than my guessing and mistakes. :smalleek:

[Blue Dragon]

I can see Belkar becoming a vampire and not changing whatsoever. His meeting with the vampire spirit would be more like: "sup!" and the only true tragedy for him would be he not being able to eat normal food anymore.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I can see Belkar becoming a vampire and not changing whatsoever. His meeting with the vampire spirit would be more like: "sup!" and the only true tragedy for him would be he not being able to eat normal food anymore.

That's not how vampires work in OotS. Belkar would end up chained inside of his own mind, watching a vampiric spirit use his body to have the kind of fun Belkar would like to enjoy, but would not get to because he'd be trapped inside his own body, with no control. That is not something Belkar would enjoy.

GW

[Peelee]

That's not how vampires work in OotS. Belkar would end up chained inside of his own mind, watching a vampiric spirit use his body to have the kind of fun Belkar would like to enjoy, but would not get to because he'd be trapped inside his own body, with no control. That is not something Belkar would enjoy.

GW

Also, fairly sure the Order would not tolerate another vampiric party member after their first encounter, especially not Belkar as one.

[Blue Dragon]

That's not how vampires work in OotS. Belkar would end up chained inside of his own mind, watching a vampiric spirit use his body to have the kind of fun Belkar would like to enjoy, but would not get to because he'd be trapped inside his own body, with no control. That is not something Belkar would enjoy.

GW

Yes, I misinterpreted how vampires I presented in the scenario.

[Blue Dragon]

Also, fairly sure the Order would not tolerate another vampiric party member after their first encounter, especially not Belkar as one.

The Order of the Stick abhors repeated plots.

[KorvinStarmast]

The Order of the Stick abhors repeated plots. Other than the dreaded "the gate was destroyed" repeat ... :smallyuk:
Elan, Miko, and Roy all destroyed gates.
So did Redcloak, but he's not in the Order, and neither was Miko for that matter.
Did anyone other than me notice that the only person who has been nearby when all four gates blew up was Redcloak?

[Fyraltari]

Other than the dreaded "the gate was destroyed" repeat ... :smallyuk:
Elan, Miko, and Roy all destroyed gates.

And the Order of the Stick isn't happy about it.

[InvisibleBison]

Did anyone other than me notice that the only person who has been nearby when all four gates blew up was Redcloak?

Why doesn't Xykon also qualify? True, he wasn't in the immediate vicinity of Lirian's gate when it was destroyed, but then Redcloak wasn't in the immediate vicinity of Dorukan's Gate when it was destroyed. I don't see why one would count as nearby and the other wouldn't.

[dancrilis]

Elan, Miko, and Roy all destroyed gates.
So did Redcloak

I believe that was actually the treants - they were trying to avoid a fire he started but he didn't actually destroy the gate himself.

It would be like if someone lights your house on fire and you break down your door to escape - they might be responsible but you still broke your door, except in this case your door is one of the corner stones protecting reality, frankly Lirian was likely being a bit of a jerk when she superglued (or whatever) the treants to the gate.

[Fyraltari]

I believe that was actually the treants - they were trying to avoid a fire he started but he didn't actually destroy the gate himself.

It would be like if someone lights your house on fire and you break down your door to escape - they might be responsible but you still broke your door, except in this case your door is one of the corner stones protecting reality, frankly Lirian was likely being a bit of a jerk when she superglued (or whatever) the treants to the gate.


Can these creatures move around normally? Or are they stuck in one spot anyway?

[dancrilis]

Can these creatures move around normally? Or are they stuck in one spot anyway?

Yes, they are as fast as your average human.
They generally don't move that much but that is a choice not a restriction.


Lirian likely attached them to the gate as a safeguard to ensure they would break it (they are good at damaging objects), but it still seems like a bit of dubious behaviour to me - particularly when she could have attached it to normal trees and merely had a free Treant on standby to animate the trees if needed to destroy the gate.

[Yanisa]

Can these creatures move around normally? Or are they stuck in one spot anyway?

The 3.5 monster manual version have a movement speed, so they can move. Even variants made with spells have movement speeds.

[Fyraltari]

What the ****, Lirian? You had an army, you could just have had people stand guard next to it.

[Quartz]

The prophecy also implies (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html) he won't get to enjoy cake after his next birthday,


So Belkar gets Covid? :)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

What the ****, Lirian? You had an army, you could just have had people stand guard next to it.

The treants seem to fulfil the same purpose the rune in Dorukan's dungeon does: to provide a method for the gate to self-destruct in case the wrong kind of people get hold of it.

GW

[denthor]

Rich once said two things

1. Belkar would be part of the comic till the end

2. That comedy gold would be missed not following Belkar to the underworld.

[Peelee]

Rich once said two things

1. Belkar would be part of the comic till the end

2. That comedy gold would be missed not following Belkar to the underworld.

You got sources?

[Fyraltari]

The treants seem to fulfil the same purpose the rune in Dorukan's dungeon does: to provide a method for the gate to self-destruct in case the wrong kind of people get hold of it.

GW

What the ****, Lirian? You had an army, you could just have had people stand guard next to it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

What the ****, Lirian? You had an army, you could just have had people stand guard next to it.

She did. She also had a self-destruct mechanism.

GW

[Fyraltari]

She did. She also had a self-destruct mechanism.

GW

People aren't a mecanism, mate. She had two conscious beings permanently stuck to the Gate for sixty years. That's messed up.

[Peelee]

People aren't a mecanism, mate. She had two conscious beings permanently stuck to the Gate for sixty years. That's messed up.

Imean, they were living trees. Chances are good that they agreed to do it and did not mind it.

[Fyraltari]

Imean, they were living trees. Chances are good that they agreed to do it and did not mind it.

Still unnecessary. Roy broke Girard's Gate by swing his sword at it. Just have some treants take turn watching it ad breaking it if needed.

[Peelee]

Still unnecessary. Roy broke Girard's Gate by swing his sword at it. Just have some treants take turn watching it ad breaking it if needed.

Never said it was necessary. Heck, half the things we've seen at the Gates have been unnecessary.

[Metastachydium]

Imean, they were living trees. Chances are good that they agreed to do it and did not mind it.

So if someone is a tree, they'll automatically want a nuclear bomb tied to them with an order to commit suicide by nuclear bomb if things get shaky? Why would anyone gleefully agree to that?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

People aren't a mecanism, mate. She had two conscious beings permanently stuck to the Gate for sixty years. That's messed up.
[citation needed]. It's ropes, not eternal chains made of mithril.


Still unnecessary. Roy broke Girard's Gate by swing his sword at it. Just have some treants take turn watching it ad breaking it if needed.
Like, for example, having them take turns being tied to the gate and thus automatically break it if they are displaced?

GW

[Peelee]

buclear bomb

Bad analogy. Gate is significantly better than no gate.

[Metastachydium]

Bad analogy.

Indeed. If they pull it apart and they have the misfortune of surviving the subsequent explosion, something may lash out of the Rift to erase them from existence forever. Who wouldn't want that job?

[dancrilis]

People aren't a mecanism, mate. She had two conscious beings permanently stuck to the Gate for sixty years. That's messed up.

There is an indication that they are Treants and no indication that that are anything but permanently attached to the gate.
However in the interests of fairness they could have been purely natural trees animated by a Treant (Treants can turn trees into Treants when they deem the need great enough - but it is not permanent) for the purpose of the specific battle they were in and they might have reverted back to normal trees afterwards - so you can make some assumptions that might it less bad then shackling conscious beings to a bomb as guards (if you want to).

[Peelee]

Indeed. If they pull it apart and they have the misfortune of surviving the subsequent explosion, something may lash out of the Rift to erase them from existence forever. Who wouldn't want that job?

From all indications, animals. Plants seem fine with it. :smallamused:

[Silent Wrangler]

Indeed. If they pull it apart and they have the misfortune of surviving the subsequent explosion, something may lash out of the Rift to erase them from existence forever. Who wouldn't want that job?

Well, seeing as Sapphire Order paladins were perfectly fine with guarding their gate on a really permanent basis, as in "Death is not an acceptable excuse from not guarding" permanent, I see no reason to assume there can't be a pair of treants who will accept that risk in order to protect the world.
I think it's better to assume treants were just that Good and selfless than to assume evil and corruption from Lirian's side.

[Riftwolf]

Ah, the nostalgia of a Belkar Breaks the Tie thread... Smells like 4 years ago...

Unfortunately it's not likely. Even after ascension, Gods still have birthdays.

[Metastachydium]

From all indications, animals. Plants seem fine with it. :smallamused:

Know this, dragon: I forgive not and forget not!


Well, seeing as Sapphire Order paladins were perfectly fine with guarding their gate on a really permanent basis, as in "Death is not an acceptable excuse from not guarding" permanent, I see no reason to assume there can't be a pair of treants who will accept that risk in order to protect the world.
I think it's better to assume treants were just that Good and selfless than to assume evil and corruption from Lirian's side.

I don't remember the part wher they were literally tied to it with orders to kill themselves via explosion/Snarl if things turn ugly.

[Silent Wrangler]

Know this, dragon: I forgive not and forget not!



I don't remember the part wher they were literally tied to it with orders to kill themselves via explosion/Snarl if things turn ugly.

That only means treants' sacrifice was bigger, not that they didn't agree or know what they were agreeing to. Why do you prefer denying their noble intent and assuming evil? Lirian is long dead, no need to smear memories of heroic deeds. Assuming corruption in the heroic deeds of the past doesn't bring any good to anyone. Save for the forces of Evil, who would of course like everyone to think that there's no purity.

Ah, the nostalgia of a Belkar Breaks the Tie thread... Smells like 4 years ago...

Unfortunately it's not likely. Even after ascension, Gods still have birthdays.

Well, if Belkar's followers believe he can't have cake as part of their dogma, he would indeed be unable to enjoy cake, keep that one in mind.

[KorvinStarmast]

That only means treants' sacrifice was bigger, not that they didn't agree or know what they were agreeing to. Why do you prefer denying their noble intent and assuming evil?
Lirian is long dead, no need to smear memories of heroic deeds. Assuming corruption in the heroic deeds of the past doesn't bring any good to anyone. Save for the forces of Evil, who would of course like everyone to think that there's no purity. *golf clap*

[Cicciograna]

Belkar is going to become a Sexy Shoeless God of Diabetes. Stop drawing breath: check. Not enjoying the next cake: check.

[Metastachydium]

That only means treants' sacrifice was bigger, not that they didn't agree or know what they were agreeing to. Why do you prefer denying their noble intent and assuming evil? Lirian is long dead, no need to smear memories of heroic deeds. Assuming corruption in the heroic deeds of the past doesn't bring any good to anyone. Save for the forces of Evil, who would of course like everyone to think that there's no purity.


Still, even if the treants agreed to this, all that proves is that the treants were unreasonably nice and Good. Physically tying two sapient planties to a world-destroying abomination to serve as a self-destruct button doesn't become any nicer from that.

[Peelee]

Still, even if the treants agreed to this, all that proves is that the treants were unreasonably nice and Good. Physically tying two sapient planties to a world-destroying abomination to serve as a self-destruct button doesn't become any nicer from that.

I don't think anyone is arguing that Lirian was being nice. Just that the Treants likely agreed to do the thing.

[Metastachydium]

I don't think anyone is arguing that Lirian was being nice. Just that the Treants likely agreed to do the thing.

You also said they probably didn't mind it, though, which is quite unlikely to be the case.

[Emanick]

You also said they probably didn't mind it, though, which is quite unlikely to be the case.

We know, or can guess, several things:

1. Lirian is confirmed to be Neutral Good.
2. It is highly unlikely that a Neutral Good person would force innocent sapient beings to tie themselves to a doomsday device against their will. That in itself might force an alignment shift, depending on how strict the DM (or universe, whatever) is.
3. Therefore, the treants tied to the Gate were probably doing this of their own free will. Or else the treants weren't "innocent," but rather prisoners or something, but giving a prisoner that kind of power would be colossally stupid and there's no real evidence of it, so I'm disregarding the possibility.

In that sense, they probably "minded" the job in the same way the paladins guarding Soon's Gate "minded" - i.e. they probably didn't really "mind," but that's almost a semantic argument, since whether you "mind" something can be defined with widely varying degrees of strictness.

[Peelee]

You also said they probably didn't mind it, though, which is quite unlikely to be the case.

If they were unreasonably nice and Good, then they probably didn't. You already agreed that they were unreasonably nice and Good.

Also, what Emanick said.

[The Pilgrim]

People aren't a mecanism, mate. She had two conscious beings permanently stuck to the Gate for sixty years. That's messed up.

They are trees. Being permanently stationary in the same place is kinda their way of living.

[Metastachydium]

If they were unreasonably nice and Good, then they probably didn't. You already agreed that they were unreasonably nice and Good.

Also, what Emanick said.

Are you happy about all your responsibilities?

[Ginasius]

There's a thing I don't remember:

Did the Order of the Scribble know that the gates could be weaponized to blackmail the gods and rule the world or they only knew that they were dangerous?

[Fyraltari]

[citation needed]. It's ropes, not eternal chains made of mithril.


Like, for example, having them take turns being tied to the gate and thus automatically break it if they are displaced?

GW
Ig uess that's a possibility but I don't really see what the point would be? Sounds just like it'd make it harder for them to get away from the blast radius.

Well, seeing as Sapphire Order paladins were perfectly fine with guarding their gate on a really permanent basis, as in "Death is not an acceptable excuse from not guarding" permanent, I see no reason to assume there can't be a pair of treants who will accept that risk in order to protect the world.
I think it's better to assume treants were just that Good and selfless than to assume evil and corruption from Lirian's side.
They're not constricted to the vicinity of the gate when alive, though. I'm not clear wether the ghost-martyrs were summonned from their afterlife or not.

Still, even if the treants agreed to this, all that proves is that the treants were unreasonably nice and Good.
People agreeing to do things on their own free will doesn't automatically mean these things are good and healthy. Somebody agreeing to do a suicidal thing when there are better options is not being extremely good, they are being unhelathy or stupid.

They are trees. Being permanently stationary in the same place is kinda their way of living.
Not these ones, they can move.

There's a thing I don't remember:

Did the Order of the Scribble know that the gates could be weaponized to blackmail the gods and rule the world or they only knew that they were dangerous?
The Sapphire Guard did not know about the Plan. Shojo didn't mention it and Miko assumed Redcloak was some kind of uber-nihilist trying to end existence.

[dancrilis]

The Sapphire Guard did not know about the Plan. Shojo didn't mention it and Miko assumed Redcloak was some kind of uber-nihilist trying to end existence.

Mr. Scruffy however theorised that Dorukan included a fail safe to prevent the Gate falling into the wrong hands as the Gate itself might enable a plan similiar to The Dark One's, and Miko did decide her duty was to destroy it when it was threatened (not sure how much she was aware of but at least enough to think that was a valid option to prevent it falling into Xykon's hands).

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Ig uess that's a possibility but I don't really see what the point would be? Sounds just like it'd make it harder for them to get away from the blast radius.

The point would be to hold the gate hostage against an attacker. To take the gate intact, you somehow need to defeat the two trent guardians without setting them on fire, cutting them down or causing the to flee.

GW

[mjasghar]

The point would be to hold the gate hostage against an attacker. To take the gate intact, you somehow need to defeat the two trent guardians without setting them on fire, cutting them down or causing the to flee.

GW

Making for an effective deadman’s hand auto destruct.

[Fyraltari]

that actually sounds pretty reasonnable. Objection retracted.

[Peelee]

Are you happy about all your responsibilities?

I don't mind them. :smallamused:

[pearl jam]

I don't mind them. :smallamused:

:smallbiggrin:

[Metastachydium]

I don't mind them. :smallamused:

Well, you are not tied to the prison of a creature of mass destruction (as far as I can tell).

[Peelee]

Well, you are not tied to the prison of a creature of mass destruction (as far as I can tell).

That seems a bit presumptuous.

[The Pilgrim]

Not these ones, they can move.

They can move. That doesn't means they like it.

It's like if a cat had to give up swimming in order to perform his job. Not a great loss considering a cat doesn't like to be involved with water to begin with (unless it belongs to the Turkish Van breed).

Sure, a cat will swim if dropped on water, and a Treeant will move if necessary to defend himself and his grove. But in their perfect world, that kind of activity doesn't exists.