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[TheShapechanger]

deleted123

[InvisibleBison]

Now that I think about it, I don't think this works at all. Minor Change Shape doesn't cause you to turn into another creature; it just changes your body so you look like a creature. Since you aren't actually turning into anything, you can't use Assume Supernatural Ability.

[Doctor Despair]

Now that I think about it, I don't think this works at all. Minor Change Shape doesn't cause you to turn into another creature; it just changes your body so you look like a creature. Since you aren't actually turning into anything, you can't use Assume Supernatural Ability.

By that logic, Racial Emulation flat-out doesn't work.


When you use your minor change shape ability to assume the form of a humanoid creature, you can also emulate any of that humanoid's subtypes.

[Gruftzwerg]

Hi InvisibleBison. Nice to meet you.

This is a quote from the other thread.

And p.24 of Rules Compendium groups A Thousand Faces in the same category as polymorph and shapechange.

Two separate sources both say you are assuming the form of the creature when you use MCS which is why I got so excited about this. Can't get more solid than two different splat books, especially one that says it precedes all other book, that says you are turning into the creature when you use MCS.

The problem is still that you only qualify for the "Prerequisite:", but not for the actual "Benefit:" of the feat.


You learn to use a single supernatural ability of another kind of creature while assuming its form through a polymorph self spell or a similar effect.
...
Polymorph Self (3.0) was converted into Polymorph (3.5). Thus you need either "polymorph or a similar spell" effect. And similar spell means spells that refer to Polymorph in their rule text and doesn't mean "Changing Form"-abilities overall.


And Troacctid added this nice argument in one of the other threads:

There's like a zillion feats that you can meet the prerequisites for while still being incapable of receiving any benefit. Every metamagic feat, for example.
As such, MCS only helps you to pick the feat, but not to use it.

[Doctor Despair]

I think its unreasonable to view "polymorph self" in that sentence as anything other than just an example of something that changes forms magically.

Hi there. Just chiming in to say it is absolutely not UNreasonable to read it as requiring something from the polymorph school of effects. It is also not UNreasonable to read that it does work. Whether or not Minor Change Shape is similar to Polymorph Self is up to DM fiat; on top of that, it's 3.0, so it requires an update anyway. It could be updated to keep the ambiguity, or eliminate it one way or the other by your DM. I think it's definitely worth discussing, but it's disingenuous to suggest (to readers) that this is something you can just slap down on any table without asking for DM permission/a favorable ruling beforehand.

[InvisibleBison]

Hi InvisibleBison. Nice to meet you.

This is a quote from the other thread.

And p.24 of Rules Compendium groups A Thousand Faces in the same category as polymorph and shapechange.


1) The fact that there's a feat that doesn't work if MCS works a certain way doesn't really matter. There are lots of rules in 3.5 that don't work; one more doesn't change anything.

2) The argument about the Rules Compendium is flawed in many ways. First of all, while A Thousand Faces is mentioned in the same section as polymorph, this doesn't mean that there's any sort of connection between the mechanics of the two abilities. Secondly, the section that they're mentioned in is devoted to abilities that "allow a creature to change its form or appearance" (emphasis mine), so an ability appearing in that section is not proof that it allows for changes of form. Finally, A Thousand Faces is not the same thing as Minor Change Shape, so even if A Thousand Faces lets you change your form that doesn't mean that Minor Change Shape does as well.


Two separate sources both say you are assuming the form of the creature

This is just straight-up wrong. At best, there are two sources that in your opinion support the idea that MCS lets you assume the form of a creature. A source says what it says, not what we interpret it to say. The fact that so many people don't seem to notice that distinction, even while they claim to be arguing about "RAW", befuddles me to no end.

[magicalmagicman]

So what constitutes a body type?
Does a Human and a Choker have the same body type?
Does a Human and a Zodar have the same body type?
Does a Balor, Solar, and Mephit have the same body types?
Does a Human and a Skeleton have the same body type?

If we go by humans, fat, thin, female, male, etc. are all considered different body types. But Disguise Self specifically says being fat or thin are not different body types so this is wrong. And changelings change genders regularly.

Furthermore Races of Eberron has a picture of a changeling mixing and matching parts of races.

So I'd define a "body type" as living (so no undead), and same basic bone structure. Yak Folk's legs bend differently than normal humans so I'd say they have a different body type, and Lizardfolks too since they have a tail.


What are some ways to change your body type?
...
From what I can see, a changeling retains her MCS ability after using Alter Self or Polymorph.

MCS is not beholden to the changeling's skin or anything afaict.

If you have Alter Self and Polymorph... do you need another way?


Minor Change Shape into a Zodar and use Wish

You need to be able to turn into a humanoid construct first. I don't think skeletons, golems, and humans have the same "body type". Body shape maybe but not type.


1) The fact that there's a feat that doesn't work if MCS works a certain way doesn't really matter. There are lots of rules in 3.5 that don't work; one more doesn't change anything.

RoE is the Primary Source Book of Changelings. So whatever it says goes.

[Doctor Despair]

Hi Doctor Despair

I read your arguments in the other threads and I found them very unconvincing as well.

Rules Compendium says Polymorph and all the other forming changing effects are the same effect called "Changing Forms". So it is unreasonable to say that spells and abilities that changes ones form are not similar effects since they're actually the same effect. I also noticed you like to ignore the other parts of ASA's description.

There are two very long threads with this discussion, and I don't want this to turn into a third very long thread with the same discussion, so I'd like it if we kept this discussion over those two threads and keep this thread about optimizing MCS with ASA and Metamorphic Transfer.

Thanks.

I mean, you're welcome to think they're unconvincing; I am not trying to convince you. The facts are the facts. 3.5 is a permissive system. You can do something if the rules say you can do it; if the rules are silent, you cannot do it. With that said, the rules are ambiguous in whether or not you can use ASA with Minor Shape Change. It's not up to me to convince anyone that it doesn't work; it doesn't work by default. It's up to the user to convince people that it works. As far as I'm concerned, there has not been definitive proof that it works yet, just supporting evidence.

With that said, this is still worth discussing. Please note: I am not saying that it does not work. I'm saying it works if the DM says it works, or if the DM updates the feat favorable, but that it may not work at all tables, as a DM would not be incorrect in reading the RAW to require a polymorph spell or something based off of the polymorph spell specifically with regard to ASA.

I do believe it would explicitly work with Metamorphic Transfer, but ASA is not Metamorphic Transfer. A Changeling can access Metamorphic Transfer as soon as level 3 (Ardent + Practiced Manifester), so any discussion on this usage of debatable RAW applies directly to the usage of Metamorphic Transfer, too, which is also productive.


If we go by humans, fat, thin, female, male, etc. are all considered different body types. But Disguise Self specifically says being fat or thin are not different body types so this is wrong. And changelings change genders regularly.

Furthermore Races of Eberron has a picture of a changeling mixing and matching parts of races.

So I'd define a "body type" as living (so no undead), and same basic bone structure. Yak Folk's legs bend differently than normal humans so I'd say they have a different body type, and Lizardfolks too since they have a tail.


I wouldn't even go that far. Size category, appendages (presence/absence of wings, horns, tails, etc), and bipedal/quadrapedal/etc. I believe Changelings are intended to be able to emulate creatures other than humanoids, which is notable to this discussion, as Racial Emulation specifies that it only applies when you emulate humanoids. Why specify if that's all you can do anyway?



If you have Alter Self and Polymorph... do you need another way?


Wildshape, shapechange, any other sort of shape-changing magic... Wildshape is probably the most notable, as it's longer duration and requires no spellslots. The rules are silent on what would happen if wildshape ran out while you were using a Changelings ability to emulate a creature with a different body type, so that's up to DM fiat. RAI you'd probably revert to Changeling, but RAW I think you stay disguised.

[newguydude1]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?610942-any-Su-abilities-that-give-you-minions
some of the neat su abilities i found.

i think ruin chanter takes the cake. its a fey that looks completely human and get this, it can summon a cr 10 ruin elemental once a weak! so turn into one and summon ruin elementals as early as level 2!

why level 2 and not 1? because of knowledge.
its hd is 20 so you need to hit a dc30 knowledge check.
if you take 10 you need 20 knowledge nature.
5 ranks, 4 int mod, 5 collector of stories skill trick, 5 ancient knowledge spell, and 3 skill focus nets you a total of 22 for a check result of 32.
at level 1 however, 4 ranks, 4 int mod, 5 ancient knowledge, and 3 skill focus nets you a total of 16. even with a +2 mwk skill item and mushroom powder drug from extract drug, you can only hit a check result of 29.

im gonna be using this in the character im planning right now.
level 1 animal companion acf from unearthed arcana to give my changeling wizard a riding dog
level 2 ruin elemental every week to carry me until i can get a mirror mephit.

[magicalmagicman]

I do believe it would explicitly work with Metamorphic Transfer, but ASA is not Metamorphic Transfer. A Changeling can access Metamorphic Transfer as soon as level 3 (Ardent + Practiced Manifester), so any discussion on this usage of debatable RAW applies directly to the usage of Metamorphic Transfer, too, which is also productive.

Metamorphic Transfer is just Assume Supernatural Ability that switched out the will saves with 3/day limit. I think its ridiculous to think it only works with Metamorphic Transfer and not both, but that's just me.


I wouldn't even go that far. Size category, appendages (presence/absence of wings, horns, tails, etc), and bipedal/quadrapedal/etc. I believe Changelings are intended to be able to emulate creatures other than humanoids, which is notable to this discussion, as Racial Emulation specifies that it only applies when you emulate humanoids. Why specify if that's all you can do anyway?

I meant humanoid body type and not humanoid type. Certain Outsiders have the humanoid body type, but not the humanoid type, so Racial Emulation doesn't work for outsider shapes, but a changeling can still assume the form of one.

Which is what you're saying so there's no disagreement here.


Wildshape, shapechange, any other sort of shape-changing magic... Wildshape is probably the most notable, as it's longer duration and requires no spellslots. The rules are silent on what would happen if wildshape ran out while you were using a Changelings ability to emulate a creature with a different body type, so that's up to DM fiat. RAI you'd probably revert to Changeling, but RAW I think you stay disguised.

Yeah that's the same as the cast Polymorph Any Object twice debate.

[Doctor Despair]

Metamorphic Transfer is just Assume Supernatural Ability that switched out the will saves with 3/day limit. I think its ridiculous to think it only works with Metamorphic Transfer and not both, but that's just me.


They are absolutely not the same. There is key difference in the wording, and the wording is the only issue I take with ASA.


Metamorphic Transfer

Each time you change your form, such as through the metamorphosis power, you gain one of the new form's supernatural abilities, if it has any.

This works any time you change your form, no ifs ands or buts. "Such as" is explicitly example-based language, so it is explicitly an example of a way you can change form.


Assume Supernatural Ability

You learn to use a single supernatural ability of another kind of creature while assuming its form through a polymorph self spell or a similar effect.

Here, using "a polymorph self spell or a similiar effect" is given as a requirement, not an example. Is Minor Change Shape a "similar effect?" That is the crux of where a DM could rule that ASA does not work. They could read it, as others have, that it has to be a polymorph-based effect, in which case it would not work. They could also read it as any form-changing magical ability, in which case it would work. It is a subtle difference, but it exists nonetheless. Hence, it is up to DM fiat whether or not it works unless someone can conclusively prove that there is some rules text declaring Minor Change Shape is a "similar ability" to Polymorph Self.

With that said, it's also a 3.0 feat, which means it can be updated to 3.5 (either unchanged or with minor changes). Such an update should presumable replace "polymorph self" with "polymorph," for example, as "polymorph self" is no longer a spell. Such an update would presumable, in the hands of a competent writer, remove the ambiguity as well. In the absence of a Wizards-created update, it is up the DM to do so, hence another layer of DM fiat. Metamorphic Transfer is 3.5 content and is subject to no such update.

[Doctor Despair]

What is your personal opinion about changelings turning into these creatures?
Yak Folk. Their legs bend differently. Like an ox standing on its hind legs.
Choker. Their arms are tentacles with claws, no elbows.

I'm not certain about those. That there's room for debate means it's ultimately DM-dependent, but I'd be more inclined to say a Changeling could change to look like a zombie, as an extreme example towards the top of the type pyramid. The presence of claws doesn't concern that much. Missing arms, adding tentacles, or turning the legs backwards might be an issue. I see above that you liked a different idea better anyway, though, which is fortunate.



Could you go into a little more detail? MT requires a ML of 5. How does going Ardent with PM get you ML5?

You know what, as I started typing, I remember ardent's arent that broken. I was remembering that ardents learn powers based on their manifester level and not their class level. Still, it's online by level 6, which is accessible in E6 and definitely still early-game. Only requires one level of a manifesting class, too, which is pretty clean.

[magicalmagicman]

Hence, it is up to DM fiat whether or not it works unless someone can conclusively prove that there is some rules text declaring Minor Change Shape is a "similar ability" to Polymorph Self.

1. A DM can do anything he wants. If he doesn't like an interaction he can simply say "No" without doing any legalese.

2. Your and Gruftzwerg's interpretation only works if and only if "similar effect" means "has the same subschool". Literally. Your interpretations literally only works if this is the definition of "similar effect". If "similar effect" means anything other than "has the same subschool" your interpretation fails.
And guess what, "Similar effect" DOESN'T mean "has the same subschool". The English dictionary doesn't say that. There is no d&d definition of "similar effect".
So what you and Gruftzwerg is saying is that, by RAW, you should defy the English language, engineer a new term and definition, and say that's why your interpretaiton works.

So I've been kindly asking you and Gruftzwerg to provide me a rule citation where it says "similar effect" by definition means "has the same subschool". Which you ignore. And then declare "similar effect means has the same subschool" out of thin air and claim your interpretation is valid.

3. If we even call your "interpretation" an actual "interpretation", then there are two interpretations.
a. One fits with everything. It fits with the Feat description. It fits with the Feat prerequisites. It fits with Rules Compendium. It fits with the English Language. it fits with everything.
b. The other needs to dismiss the feat description by claiming its not rule text, dismiss the feat prerequisite claiming its a WotC oversight, needs to engineer a definition of "similar effects" that doesn't exist by defying the English language, needs to claim said engineered definition is RAW, needs to claim that spells and abilities that do the same exact thing and is lumped in the same category together by the definitive source of rules are NOT "similar", andclaim that the goal isn't to magically assume a new form with polymorph just being an example of a way to magically assume a new form but instead the absolute mandatory requirement for the feat to function,

Which interpretation is right? The one with no problems, or the one with a problem every way it turns?

So you see how I, a person of logic, can be extremely frustrated at the things you say.
Instead of going in circles, why don't you address the following points?

dismiss the feat description by claiming its not rule text
dismiss the feat prerequisite claiming its a WotC oversight
engineer a definition of "similar effects" that doesn't exist by defying the English language
claim said engineered definition is RAW.
claim that spells and abilities that do the same exact thing and is lumped in the same category together by the definitive source of rules are NOT "similar"
claim that the goal isn't to magically assume a new form with polymorph just being an example of a way to magically assume a new form, but instead the absolute mandatory requirement for the feat to function


And you can post in the other thread too if you want since the OP doesn't want this discussion here. I'll follow you over there.

[Doctor Despair]

2. Your and Gruftzwerg's interpretation only works if and only if "similar effect" means "has the same subschool". L
So what you and Gruftzwerg is saying is that, by RAW, you should defy the English language, engineer a new term and definition, and say that's why your interpretaiton works.

So I've been kindly asking again and again for you and Gruftzwerg to provide me a rule citation where it says "similar effect" by definition means "has the same subschool". Which you ignore. And then declare "similar effect means has the same subschool" out of thin air and claim your interpretation is valid.

You are absolutely strawmanning me right now. I'm saying that a DM could rightfully read it to be that way because similar effect is vague. Gruftzwerg is flat-out saying it doesn't work by RAW. These two things are not the same, and if you think they are, I'm not quite sure what to say to you. If you want to reply to Gruftzwerg, then reply to Gruftzwerg and leave me out of it. I have not said it doesn't work; I'm saying it is ambiguously written and 3.0. If you'd care to respond to my actual post instead of Gruftzwerg's, then we can discuss that if you'd like.

You're also putting the burden of proof entirely on the wrong end here. The burden of proof is on the person saying it works to prove that a DM cannot read "similar effect" as not including Minor Change Shape. Thusfar, there has been no conclusive proof (likely because there is none). However, there is supporting evidence that would empower a DM to rule either way based on their preference. If you have conclusive evidence, please share it. Otherwise, as OP requested, we don't need to discuss it here.




I forgot about needing a knowledge check to know of a creature's existence.

That Ruin Chanter is far better than the Yak Folk thing I was trying to do! That's going on the first post.

With regard to knowledges, I was working on an interesting build based on pumping knowledges as high as possible, so I know there's a lot of strong tools available.


1. Dragonfire Adept (+6 untyped to all knowledges, Skill Focus grants another +3 to the one you choose)
2. Ardent grants (+5 untyped to any knowledge check when expending psionic focus, as well as the ability to reroll the knowledge check with a +4 competency)
3. Wizard or Sorcerer (Collector of Stories gets you +5 competency, improving on your previous +4, and get Ancient Knowledge as Newguy pointed out, granting another +5 insight)

With a +2 from a masterwork tool, +4 from attribute, max ranks (6), and taking 10, we hit an automatic 46 at level 3, letting us get 36HD things. Two more levels gets us to a 48, and we also get WBL for an eternal wand of Guidance of the Avatar. That +20 competency replaces our +5, so it only boosts us up to 63, letting us get 52HD things as we please. In this case, that's enough for a lot of high-level goodies.

A quick glance through the Epic Level Handbook yields some additional options:

Gloom (192, 25HD) Fear Gaze (will save or fear as of 20th level caster)
Hunefer (197, 50HD) Despair (will save or paralyze with fear for 1d4 rounds), Hunefer Rot (fort save or take 1d6 temporary con per round until they die or have remove disease; upon death, body shrivels away into sand unless remove disease and raise dead or better are used within 2 rounds; if not treated, an 18HD mummy rises with their equipment under your command)
Lavawight (200, 32HD) Blazefire (melee attack sets foe on fire; fort save or permanently lsoe 4HP. Repeat for 6 additional rounds. You heal for all damage dealt this way, then gain temporary hp if already full. These hitpoints cannot be healed magically or naturally)
Leshay (202, 50HD) Gaze (charm monster on all enemies within 30 feet, or target as a standard)
Winterwight (227, 32HD) Blightfire (on melee attack, ignire with blightfire. Fort save or deal 4 permanent con drain for 5 rounds in total. Gain 10hp or temp hp for every 4 drained.)

Most notable seems to be the Hunefer for granting free, permanently loyal 18HD mummies. Leshay granting access to Charm Monster so early seems significant too.

I'm sure there's a lot of stronger options, but that's a decent place to start from. :)

[magicalmagicman]

I have not said it doesn't work; I'm saying it is ambiguously written and 3.0. If you'd care to respond to my actual post instead of Gruftzwerg's, then we can discuss that if you'd like.

My apologies. I have lumped you and Gruftzwerg together.


You're also putting the burden of proof entirely on the wrong end here. The burden of proof is on the person saying it works to prove that a DM cannot read "similar effect" as not including Minor Change Shape. Thusfar, there has been no conclusive proof (likely because there is none). However, there is supporting evidence that would empower a DM to rule either way based on their preference. If you have conclusive evidence, please share it. Otherwise, as OP requested, we don't need to discuss it here.

No, the burden of proof is on the other side.

Using the English definition of similar, are all the abilities listed under the Changing Form section of Rules Compendium "similar"?
Yes. They're all categorized as the same effect achieved through various means be it spells, class features, or innate racial abilities.
Case closed. Debate over. Assume Supernatural Ability works with Minor Change Shape.

It's up to the opposition to prove that these abilities are NOT similar under the English definition.
Why is the burden of proof on me when I don't have to defy the English dictionary?

[Doctor Despair]

Sorry, I don't know these two classes that well. A quick google has failed to reveal to me where the +6 and +5 untyped knowledges come from. Is there a feat name or a class ability I could use to help my search?

Dragonfire Adept is from Dragon Magic and, at level one, gets access to a least invocation called "Draconic Knowledge" that grants a +6 untyped bonus to all Knowledge (and Spellcraft) checks and lets you make them untrained.

Ardent grants access to mantles which (much like domains) each grant access to special abilities. The Knowledge mantle lets you expend your psionic focus to get a +5 untyped bonus on a knowledge check.

[Crake]

Whether it works or not, I think if you try to come to a table with a level 1 changeling with Assume Supernatural Ability, and MCS into anything even mid-level in power, let alone a zodar for it's wish ability, and try to claim it works, you're gonna have a bad time.

I agree with the sentiment that Minor Change Shape is not a polymorph or similar effect because if you read through it's text it does reference a spell: Disguise Self. It's a physical transmutation effect, yes, but in the end, it's physically duplicating the effects of a level 1 illusion spell. It has no similarities to polymorph in any way other than it transmutes your shape, but MCS isn't even limited to specific creatures, you could turn yourself into a humanoid-shaped amorphous blob and get away with it, or change every limb to resemble a different creature, etc. That's not even mentioning the fact that you gain NO abilities of the form you take, not even natural weapons, so those claws you grew are completely useless.

This topic itself is contentious enough that you're not going to get a consensus from the playground, and even if you can convince yourself it works, you're gonna have a far harder time convincing a DM. Someone having access to powers far above their level isn't interesting for anyone else at the table, and the novelty will wear out for you fast enough as well, then you'll be left with a hollow, joyless character and roll onto the next meme character.

[newguydude1]

Whether it works or not, I think if you try to come to a table with a level 1 changeling with Assume Supernatural Ability, and MCS into anything even mid-level in power, let alone a zodar for it's wish ability, and try to claim it works, you're gonna have a bad time.

I agree with the sentiment that Minor Change Shape is not a polymorph or similar effect because if you read through it's text it does reference a spell: Disguise Self. It's a physical transmutation effect, yes, but in the end, it's physically duplicating the effects of a level 1 illusion spell. It has no similarities to polymorph in any way other than it transmutes your shape, but MCS isn't even limited to specific creatures, you could turn yourself into a humanoid-shaped amorphous blob and get away with it, or change every limb to resemble a different creature, etc. That's not even mentioning the fact that you gain NO abilities of the form you take, not even natural weapons, so those claws you grew are completely useless.

This topic itself is contentious enough that you're not going to get a consensus from the playground, and even if you can convince yourself it works, you're gonna have a far harder time convincing a DM. Someone having access to powers far above their level isn't interesting for anyone else at the table, and the novelty will wear out for you fast enough as well, then you'll be left with a hollow, joyless character and roll onto the next meme character.

doesnt work with zodar without polymorph any object which is 8th level.

rules compendium a thousand faces is a form changing effect
racial emulation feat says you assume forms.
assume supernatural ability grants you a su ability of assumed forms
metamorphic transfer also grants you su abilitiy of assumed forms.
change shape assumes forms
minor change shape assume forms

its open and shut.

if you dont like it thats fine. but rules are rules. its not us thats trying hard to convince ourselves that it works. its you who is trying really hard to convince yourself it doesnt work. i dont see you addressing "assumed form" in your post, but instead trying to ignore the rule text, dance around the raw, and pretend it doesnt exist.

and there is a consensus. no one is disagreeing whether it works with metamorphic transfer or not. its just the ones who are trying to hamfist a polymorph restriction onto assume supernatural ability thats disagreeing.

[magicalmagicman]

This topic itself is contentious enough that you're not going to get a consensus from the playground, and even if you can convince yourself it works, you're gonna have a far harder time convincing a DM. Someone having access to powers far above their level isn't interesting for anyone else at the table, and the novelty will wear out for you fast enough as well, then you'll be left with a hollow, joyless character and roll onto the next meme character.

The topic isn't contentious. As newguydude1 pointed out no one is disagreeing whether it works with Metamorphic Transfer or not. So it most definitely works. Other posters have provided the rule citations that directly shows it works. The only contentious part here is does Assume Supernatural Ability require a polymorph subschool effect and not just a form changing effect and only one person thinks that, and has provided no rule citations, nor any English citations.

[Malphegor]

I always thought the changeling ability worked like Disguise Self by default but it is physical rather than illusory. Dunno if that throws off all the polymorph discussions or not.

[Crake]

doesnt work with zodar without polymorph any object which is 8th level.

rules compendium a thousand faces is a form changing effect
racial emulation feat says you assume forms.
assume supernatural ability grants you a su ability of assumed forms
metamorphic transfer also grants you su abilitiy of assumed forms.
change shape assumes forms
minor change shape assume forms

its open and shut.

if you dont like it thats fine. but rules are rules. its not us thats trying hard to convince ourselves that it works. its you who is trying really hard to convince yourself it doesnt work. i dont see you addressing "assumed form" in your post, but instead trying to ignore the rule text, dance around the raw, and pretend it doesnt exist.

and there is a consensus. no one is disagreeing whether it works with metamorphic transfer or not. its just the ones who are trying to hamfist a polymorph restriction onto assume supernatural ability thats disagreeing.

Except you're completely ignoring the 3.0 context of the feat where all shapechanging abilities were either based on polymorph (and thus a "similar effect") or based on a different spell, like alter self (and thus not a similar effect, note that back in 3.0 alter self was a significantly different spell and was not part of the polymorph chain). With the way shapechanging has been rather significantly changed since 3.0, where shapechanging abilities have been divorced from being based on spells at all for the most part, it becomes far more ambiguous.

If you want to update Assume Supernatural Ability to 3.5, just make it a carbon copy of Metamorphic Transfer, but replace Metamorphosis with Polymorph.

[Doctor Despair]

Except you're completely ignoring the 3.0 context of the feat where all shapechanging abilities were either based on polymorph (and thus a "similar effect") or based on a different spell, like alter self (and thus not a similar effect, note that back in 3.0 alter self was a significantly different spell and was not part of the polymorph chain). With the way shapechanging has been rather significantly changed since 3.0, where shapechanging abilities have been divorced from being based on spells at all for the most part, it becomes far more ambiguous.

If you want to update Assume Supernatural Ability to 3.5, just make it a carbon copy of Metamorphic Transfer, but replace Metamorphosis with Polymorph.

With that said, since the trick works with Metamorphic Transfer at level 6 anyway (or level 5 if you have a bonus feat at level 5), it's still worth discussing, even if you believe that "polymorph self spell or similar effect" refers to polymorph-based effects.

[Crake]

With that said, since the trick works with Metamorphic Transfer at level 6 anyway (or level 5 if you have a bonus feat at level 5), it's still worth discussing, even if you believe that "polymorph self spell or similar effect" refers to polymorph-based effects.

Well the main difference is that Metamorphosis and Polymorph both have HD restrictions, so you can't shoot too far above your level (there are still some low HD creatures with high-powered abilities out there, but they're more the outlier), MCS doesn't have that restriction, because, again, it's form shifting is purely cosmetic.

[Doctor Despair]

Well the main difference is that Metamorphosis and Polymorph both have HD restrictions, so you can't shoot too far above your level (there are still some low HD creatures with high-powered abilities out there, but they're more the outlier), MCS doesn't have that restriction, because, again, it's form shifting is purely cosmetic.

Metamorphic Transfer actually explicitly doesn't require Metamorphosis, which is where it differs from ASA.


Benefit
Each time you change your form, such as through the metamorphosis power, you gain one of the new form's supernatural abilities, if it has any.

Unlike in ASA, Metamorphic Transfer explicitly discusses metamorphosis only in terms of an example. I suppose there's still room for discussion as to whether or not MCS causes you to "change your form," as it doesn't have precisely the overlapping language of assuming a new form, but I think it's more clear-cut than the debate over "polymorph self spell or similar effect" folks were having.

[Crake]

Metamorphic Transfer actually explicitly doesn't require Metamorphosis, which is where it differs from ASA.



Unlike in ASA, Metamorphic Transfer explicitly discusses metamorphosis only in terms of an example. I suppose there's still room for discussion as to whether or not MCS causes you to "change your form," as it doesn't have precisely the overlapping language of assuming a new form, but I think it's more clear-cut than the debate over "polymorph self spell or similar effect" folks were having.

Ah, true enough, it doesn't. Still, you'd be right in saying that a Changeling's minor change shape ability has no wording about assuming forms at all.


Minor Change Shape (Su): Changelings have the supernatural ability to alter their appearance as though using a disguise self spell that affects their bodies but not their possessions. This is not an illusory effect but a minor physical alteration of a changeling’s facial features, skin color and texture, and size, within the limits described for the spell. A changeling can use this ability at will, and the alteration lasts until she changes shape again. A changeling reverts to her natural form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals her natural form. Using this ability is a full-round action.

People can point to the racial emulation feat and say that by this reading it's dysfunctional, and maybe it is, but that's an error with the feat's language, and is not how the changeling's MCS ability works. MCS (and thousand faces, since they use practically the same wording) merely alter your appearance, and do not allow you to take specific forms. While you can alter your appearance to appear in that form, you actually are not.

[Doctor Despair]

Ah, true enough, it doesn't. Still, you'd be right in saying that a Changeling's minor change shape ability has no wording about assuming forms at all.



People can point to the racial emulation feat and say that by this reading it's dysfunctional, and maybe it is, but that's an error with the feat's language, and is not how the changeling's MCS ability works. MCS (and thousand faces, since they use practically the same wording) merely alter your appearance, and do not allow you to take specific forms. While you can alter your appearance to appear in that form, you actually are not.

That's a hot take that hasn't received much conversation at all, but I suppose is worth discussing. Does Racial Emulation, by RAW, literally just do nothing? It'd be internally consistent with the argument that MCS doesn't involve assuming new forms, I suppose, which is the important thing when trying to argue Metamorphic Transfer doesn't work. I'm not sure I'd lean towards a RAW reading that invites dysfunction like that into an otherwise fine feat, personally.

[Crake]

That's a hot take that hasn't received much conversation at all, but I suppose is worth discussing. Does Racial Emulation, by RAW, literally just do nothing? It'd be internally consistent with the argument that MCS doesn't involve assuming new forms, I suppose, which is the important thing when trying to argue Metamorphic Transfer doesn't work. I'm not sure I'd lean towards a RAW reading that invites dysfunction like that into an otherwise fine feat, personally.

Well, I think it's rather clear how it's intended to function, and to fix it all, you do is change the word "form" to the word "appearance"


When you use your minor change shape ability to assume the form appearance of a humanoid creature

Like that.

[Crake]

Hi Crake



This character isn't a serious character. A changeling having access to such crazy powerful abilities at level 1 has such a WTF factor I thought it would be crazy fun to build such a crazy character together and show it off to my other friends to see their jaw dropped faces going "No way! No way!" for a while. But there has been nothing but extreme negativity here. I think it was a mistake to make an account and post.

I'm gonna go see if there's a way to delete this account.

There's plenty of ways to break the game at level 1, that's nothing special, adding another method onto the pile isn't really an accomplishment, and that's likely why you get such a jaded response to such ideas. Trust me, you'll have much more fun if you start using tabletop rpgs for what they're meant to be used for, and that's storytelling mediums, rather than what is essentially glitch hunting.

[magicalmagicman]

Well, I think it's rather clear how it's intended to function, and to fix it all, you do is change the word "form" to the word "appearance"



Like that.

Did you really just use the word "intend"?


You learn to use a supernatural ability of an assumed form.

Prerequisite
WIS 13, ability to assume a new form magically,

Benefit
You learn to use a single supernatural ability of another kind of creature while assuming its form through a polymorph self spell or a similar effect.


Each time you change your form, such as through the metamorphosis power, you gain one of the new form’s supernatural abilities, if it has any.

Intention of the feat is 100% clear. The goal is assuming a new form magically and polymorph is just an example. Yet you're trying to lawyer Polymorph into the prerequisite.


If you want to update Assume Supernatural Ability to 3.5, just make it a carbon copy of Metamorphic Transfer, but replace Metamorphosis with Polymorph.

I 100% Agree. Lets just do that. I've been saying that since the other thread.

Each time you change your form, such as through the polymorph spell, you gain one of the new form’s supernatural abilities, if it has any.

I guess the discussion is over.



Well, I think it's rather clear how it's intended to function, and to fix it all, you do is change the word "form" to the word "appearance"



Like that.
Even if you did that it'd change nothing.


Change Shape
A creature that has this special quality can assume the appearance
of a specific creature or type of creature (usually a humanoid),
but retains most of its original physical qualities. Changing
shape results in the following changes to the creature.
• The creature retains the type and subtype of its natural
form. It gains the size of its assumed form.

Change Shape assumes the appearance, not form. But the very next sentences treats changing appearance identically to changing form.

Assume the appearance is a synonym of assume the form. There is no distinction between the two. Not to mention this is all under the section "Changing Form" so it's clear cut that assume appearance = assume form. Not that I need to prove this because you can't change RAW. I mean, you can for your table, but we're not talking about your table.

Polymorph is just an example. Minor Change Shape assumes forms. Assume Supernatural Ability gives you the Su ability of assumed forms.

We have rule citation for each and every one of our claims. We even have "intent" on our side.

[Doctor Despair]

Polymorph is just an example.

The thing is that you keep making that claim, but there is no conclusive evidence it is just an example. A DM would not be incorrect to say that "polymorph self spell or similar effect" is referring to effects based on polymorph self; it matches the context.

With that said, a DM would not be incorrect to take "effect" out of that context and read polymorph self as "just an example." It is written super ambiguously, and if you read it this way, Minor Change Shape definitely works (or Racial Emulation doesn't work -- it's one or the other, and Racial Emulation not working seems much more dysfunctional to me than MCS not qualifying under this reading).

That's why this is ultimately subject to DM fiat. Both readings make sense in context and have supporting evidence. You can stack up supporting evidence for "polymorph self is an example" until the cows come home, but it's always going to be DM fiat because there is no conclusive rules text to settle the phrasing of this matter.

People object because the RAI is probably not for a level 1 Ardent Changeling to be able to get a supernatural ability from any 19HD bipedal creature with two arms, two legs, one head, and no extra appendages (Take 10 on the knowledge check, +4 from ranks, +4 from attribute, +5 from Knowledge mantle, +4 from power, +2 from masterwork tool). Given the choice of two RAW readings, they are rejecting the one that creates this absurdly potent situation. However, just as they are wrong to reject, so too are you wrong to tell them it is indisputable RAW that it works. You have a lot of supporting evidence. I imagine you can summon even more supporting evidence. None of that supporting evidence will eliminate the validity of the other reading. All of the supporting evidence you find would be valuable to convince a DM to accept that it is a valid reading that they should consider allowing at their table. On the subject of DMs, it is a 3.0 feat. That there is ambiguity will prompt the DM to update the feat regardless (or else "polymorph self spell or similar effect" becomes "null or similar effect," and the feat doesn't work for anything). This supporting evidence will be key to earn a favorable update.

Are there more powerful things you can do at level 1? Pun Pun can exist at level 1, so yes. I think the Omnificer also exists at level 1. However, this is a pretty potent one that is worth considering, especially since (in my opinion) it has a much stronger case to work with Metamorphic Transfer at level 6. I've noticed very few people arguing it wouldn't work with Metamorphic Transfer, so this topic of conversation is valid regardless of whether they reject ASA's compatibility or not.

[magicalmagicman]

The thing is that you keep making that claim, but there is no conclusive evidence it is just an example. A DM would not be incorrect to say that "polymorph self spell or similar effect" is referring to effects based on polymorph self; it matches the context.

It is conclusive. Look at the whole feat, its improved version, and the rest of d&d instead of just that one phrase by itself.

Here's the improved version

You gain skill with using a supernatural ability of an assumed form.

Prerequisite
Assume Supernatural Ability (SS) , WIS 17, ability to assume a new form magically,

I cannot believe anyone reasonable would say Assume Supernatural Ability line of feats require anything more than a way to assume a new form magically. Dismissing the feat description. Dismissing the feat prerequisites. Dismissing Metamorphic Transfer's text. Dismissing Rules Compendium. After dismissing everything and then saying it's "ambiguous" is not reasonable.


With that said, a DM would not be incorrect to take "effect" out of that context and read polymorph self as "just an example."

A DM is not "incorrect" if he makes house rules. In fact I'd say the DM is "incorrect" if he doesn't take measures to balance the game because as written d&d 3.5. is unplayable. But he is incorrect if he thinks his house rule is relevant to a RAW discussion.

If I was a DM I'd either ban the interaction, or let the player do this but nerf all the Su abilities he uses to his level. The Ruin Elemental thing newguydude1 talked about? In my table I'd allow it but he'd get a CR2 Ruin Elemental. But this has nothing to do with RAW.


That's why this is ultimately subject to DM fiat. Both readings make sense in context and have supporting evidence. You can stack up supporting evidence for "polymorph self is an example" until the cows come home, but it's always going to be DM fiat because there is no conclusive rules text to settle the phrasing of this matter.

There is no "supporting evidence" for the other reading. Your "supporting evidence" for that is dismissing everything and using tunnel vision to look at that one phrase. Unless I missed something. Do you have any "supporting evidence" other than dismissing everything?

So bottom line, my position is:

Dismissing everything
Engineering a new term called "similar effects" while defying the English dictionary and claiming that your engineered term is RAW
Changing words or removing words from the rule text under the guise of "intent"
Claims Wild Shape, Alternate Form, and Change Shape cannot benefit from this feat in a book for player MONSTERS

Is very unreasonable therefore wrong. (I keep doing this so if I do do a strawman you can point to the bullet point where I got it wrong)


People object because the RAI is probably not for a level 1 Ardent Changeling to be able to get a supernatural ability from any 19HD bipedal creature with two arms, two legs, one head, and no extra appendages (Take 10 on the knowledge check, +4 from ranks, +4 from attribute, +5 from Knowledge mantle, +4 from power, +2 from masterwork tool). Given the choice of two RAW readings, they are rejecting the one that creates this absurdly potent situation. However, just as they are wrong to reject, so too are you wrong to tell them it is indisputable RAW that it works. You have a lot of supporting evidence. I imagine you can summon even more supporting evidence. None of that supporting evidence will eliminate the validity of the other reading. All of the supporting evidence you find would be valuable to convince a DM to accept that it is a valid reading that they should consider allowing at their table. On the subject of DMs, it is a 3.0 feat. That there is ambiguity will prompt the DM to update the feat regardless (or else "polymorph self spell or similar effect" becomes "null or similar effect," and the feat doesn't work for anything). This supporting evidence will be key to earn a favorable update.

It's not a RAW reading, it's an engineered reading trying to be passed off as RAW, is my problem.

If you use ASA as the opposition intended, using the an example mentioned on the OP of the thread, a wizard can polymorph into a Mad Crafter of Thoon, grab a continuous healing effect somewhere, and then use Assume Supernatural Ability to churn out 14,400 Scythers of Thoon per day.

Is it the RAI of this feat to allow players to spawn an entire army of robots in a single day? No. But that's how the rules work. So anyone trying to nerf the interaction by engineering a reading is wrong. The opposition is not finding rules to support their claim. The opposition is simply trying to dismiss every single thing my side provides. That is the definition of someone trying to engineer a reading instead of looking at the rules as-is.

Crake tried to change the word "form" to "appearance". Gruftzwerg tried to change the word "similar effect" to "similar spell". Invisible Bison tried to dismiss Racial Emulation's text as a dysfunction. You dismiss the feat's description and prerequisite. Not a single person here provided a rule citation.

If an interaction is broken, just accept that it's broken and ban it instead of engaging in all this lawyering. A DM is not bound by the rules which is why ultimately all this TO RAW stuff is meaningless other than for us to laugh at another person's ingenuity in finding yet another way to break the game.

edit: Rules Compendium says polymorph and a thousand masks are the same effect. Therefore "similar" to polymorph even if polymorph is not just an example. The opposition position literally has no legs to stand on.

[Crake]

Did you really just use the word "intend"?

I was talking about the obvious intention behind Racial Emulation, so settle down please.

If you go back and read my posts again, you'll see where the changeling's MCS ability says absolutely nothing about assuming or changing into the form of other creatures, but rather merely altering your own appearance.

[magicalmagicman]

I was talking about the obvious intention behind Racial Emulation, so settle down please.

If you go back and read my posts again, you'll see where the changeling's MCS ability says absolutely nothing about assuming or changing into the form of other creatures, but rather merely altering your own appearance.

If you're telling me to settle down, I do need to improve the way I write because I am settled down. I'm not emotionally charged, but rereading my posts, it does give off that vibe.

I apologize.

In addition to what everyone else provided, I also provided a passage in Rules Compendium where the rules treat assume appearance and assume form interchangeably in Change Shape (the normal version of MCS). So changing the word "appearance" with "form" accomplishes nothing, not that your argument is valid anyways since we're talking about RAW.

[newguydude1]

Someone having access to powers far above their level isn't interesting for anyone else at the table, and the novelty will wear out for you fast enough as well, then you'll be left with a hollow, joyless character and roll onto the next meme character.

your completely wrong. having epic level insta kill su abilities just makes you no different than an uber charger. one shot anything and die yourself. asa has a will save too so your glass cannon wizard is inconsistent.

ive been getting my ass kicked by fiends to the point the dm has to give me a couple handicaps but thanks to this trick i found i dont need his handicaps anymore.

from what im reading i doubt my dm will bat an eye. gaze stuff is countered by staying far away and outnumbering us. ruin elemental is an awesome beatstick but its still just a beatstick. a dmm cleric will surpass it by like level 3 or 5 or something. unbuffed monsters damage output truly is subpar. i should know cause i use mirror mephits regularly.

[Crake]

your completely wrong. having epic level insta kill su abilities just makes you no different than an uber charger. one shot anything and die yourself. asa has a will save too so your glass cannon wizard is inconsistent.

Wish is far more than just an "epic level insta kill su ability". It can solve way more problems than "enemy there, make enemy ded". Trying to compare the two is entirely disingenuous. You also only need to make a will save if you're in combat, but there's plenty of times where you could simply use wish to preemptively make combats simply not occur in the first place.

[newguydude1]

Wish is far more than just an "epic level insta kill su ability". It can solve way more problems than "enemy there, make enemy ded". Trying to compare the two is entirely disingenuous. You also only need to make a will save if you're in combat, but there's plenty of times where you could simply use wish to preemptively make combats simply not occur in the first place.

i wasnt comparing wish. free wishes is pun pun. which is why i said gaze attacks. the stuff doctor despair listed, or the stuff i listed. as high op as my table is we draw the line at free wishes before level 17.

[Crake]

i wasnt comparing wish. free wishes is pun pun. which is why i said gaze attacks. the stuff doctor despair listed, or the stuff i listed. as high op as my table is we draw the line at free wishes before level 17.

What about at-will Su dominate? Changelings aren't limited to any kind of creature types or even templates, so they could assume the form of a vampire lord and gain su dominate through their voice.

What about passive Su abilities that the will save becomes irrelevant for, like an angel's protective aura, making you completely invulnerable to low level spells.

What about archons' innate Su teleport at will?

There's so much more destructive things for a campaign than "I can kill monster gud."

[AvatarVecna]

What about at-will Su dominate? Changelings aren't limited to any kind of creature types or even templates, so they could assume the form of a vampire lord and gain su dominate through their voice.

What about passive Su abilities that the will save becomes irrelevant for, like an angel's protective aura, making you completely invulnerable to low level spells.

What about archons' innate Su teleport at will?

There's so much more destructive things for a campaign than "I can kill monster gud."

Case in point:

"Alright guys, today's session is a murder mystery plot."

"I cast 'Speak With Dead'."

And now we get to find out whether the DM was 100% not prepared for a spell that literally solves an entire genre, or if he had his low-level serial killer be unusually well-informed on the abilities and limitations of various low-level divination spells that would more or less immediately figure out whodunnit.

Spells are tools for solving problems in ways that circumvent the usual methods of solving those problems. They are, by design, inherently storybreaking, and need to be worked around to avoid them solving everything.

[Crake]

Case in point:

"Alright guys, today's session is a murder mystery plot."

"I cast 'Speak With Dead'."

And now we get to find out whether the DM was 100% not prepared for a spell that literally solves an entire genre, or if he had his low-level serial killer be unusually well-informed on the abilities and limitations of various low-level divination spells that would more or less immediately figure out whodunnit.

Spells are tools for solving problems in ways that circumvent the usual methods of solving those problems. They are, by design, inherently storybreaking, and need to be worked around to avoid them solving everything.

Yeah, but spells have spell levels for a reason. A murder mystery plot can't be solved by speak with dead by a level 1 party.

[AvatarVecna]

Yeah, but spells have spell levels for a reason. A murder mystery plot can't be solved by speak with dead by a level 1 party.

Also very true. And also it's not unreasonable that a serial killer might know ways to deal with Speak With Dead. But it's a solid example. My usual go-to example is definitely teleport tho, for LotR and OotS reasons. The utility of being able to just cut out all the nonsense issues of long-distance travel is hard to overstate. :smallsmile:

[newguydude1]

What about at-will Su dominate? Changelings aren't limited to any kind of creature types or even templates, so they could assume the form of a vampire lord and gain su dominate through their voice.

one break enchantment or magic circle and the changeling dies by his own minion the next turn. theres a reason i use simulacrum and not charm or dominate.


What about passive Su abilities that the will save becomes irrelevant for, like an angel's protective aura, making you completely invulnerable to low level spells.

dont use spells? throw a hydra at the changeling.


What about archons' innate Su teleport at will?
whats wrong with that.

you are forgetting you get one su ability per feat selection. you build your character to have one thing early.


There's so much more destructive things for a campaign than "I can kill monster gud."
dm is a god. he can cut xp rewards, he can tailor make encounters for the pcs and fluff it as the villains do their research or heard about the pcs. unless its pun-pun level stuff no high op trick matters.

the only problem like you said is a pc being 10 times more powerful than his other teammates. but if the other teammates are running dmm persistent clerics and uberchargers then this asa trick stuff is totally fine.

and being 10 times more powerful than his other teammates for a level or two is totally fine. if i was playing a dmm cleric i wouldnt mind an op changeling helping us blitzing through the first few levels until my thing comes online.


Yeah, but spells have spell levels for a reason. A murder mystery plot can't be solved by speak with dead by a level 1 party.

whats wrong with burning resources to get a spell early? artificers get 9th spells by 7th level without any investment in anything. pure naked 7 artificer and he gets 9th level spells 7th level.

here the changeling is using up his race, feats, and investing in +knowledge to get one or two abilities early. some abilities are problematic but so what? if you cant handle a particular su ability then just ask the player to avoid that one su ability. or nerf it further. my dm looked at yak folk and copied and pasted the "at most 1 creature at a time" into mirror mephits simulacrum sla and weve been doing fine. i use mirror mephits in real campaigns and with that nerf and the additional nerf of pcs being unable to get minions whos cr is higher than your ecl im actually weaker than my teammates.


you could turn yourself into a humanoid-shaped amorphous blob

i dont think shape and body type are the same thing. i wouldnt say a skeleton has the same body type as a human. lack of flesh is body type. amorphous blob is a lack of everything. i think its a lot more restrictive than you think.

[Psyren]

And now we get to find out whether the DM was 100% not prepared for a spell that literally solves an entire genre, or if he had his low-level serial killer be unusually well-informed on the abilities and limitations of various low-level divination spells that would more or less immediately figure out whodunnit.


You don't need the killer to be a supergenius or savant to beat SWD. The corpse only knows what it knew in life, and if it didn't know who killed it (e.g. killed from behind), you still have a mystery on your hands.

A better example for this would be something like Vision or Hypercognition - something that reveals information the killer can't possibly anticipate without fiat.

[gogogome]

My two cents on the subject
Similar is a vague word. For example, you can argue Fireball and bird crap is similar because Fireball needs bat crap to cast. And by that extension you could say bird crap and sulfur is similar because sulfur can be used as Fireball's material component so that's similiar to bat crap which is similar to bird crap and rat crap. You can argue that everything in the universe is similar to one another. So context matters.

I've personally seen people claim certain people are similar to cockroaches and vultures.

The opposite is true too. I can argue Polymorph Self and Polymorph Others are not similar to each other because one can only affect the caster and the other can only affect anyone but the caster. Context matters.

So,
Is the feat asking for something mechanical like having the same subschool?
Is the feat asking for something that references polymorph directly?
Is the feat asking for something that lets you assume forms magically?
What is the feat asking for?

I can argue Polymorph and Dimensional Anchor are similar because both spells are 4th level core arcane spells on the wizard spell list. But does the feat work with Dimensional Anchor? No it doesn't because the feat needs you to assume forms magically.

So now we see what the feat is really asking. It's asking for ways that let you assume forms magically.

The feat, and its improved version, only talks about assuming forms magically.
It doesn't talk about anything specific to polymorph.
Nothing about type changes
Nothing about retaining hitpoints
Nothing about gaining racial bonus feats
Nothing about gaining hitpoints as if you rested.

The feat only talks about assuming forms magically. So from this we can conclude without a doubt that the feat is asking for something that lets you assume forms magically, like polymorph. Which means magicalmagicman is right, polymorph is just an example.


Crake tried to change the word "form" to "appearance". Gruftzwerg tried to change the word "similar effect" to "similar spell". Invisible Bison tried to dismiss Racial Emulation's text as a dysfunction. You dismiss the feat's description and prerequisite. Not a single person here provided a rule citation.

I think this is accurate. If you need to change the RAW to make your interpretation work, then your interpretation is not RAW.

[Crake]

i dont think shape and body type are the same thing. i wouldnt say a skeleton has the same body type as a human. lack of flesh is body type. amorphous blob is a lack of everything. i think its a lot more restrictive than you think.

Firstly note I said a humanoid shaped amorphous blob, secondly, the context of the ability is the disguise self spell. An illusion that has absolutely 0 care about creature type at all. Skeleton sure, I could see a point, because a skeleton is literally just bones, even if they are arranged in a humanoid shape, but are you going to try and convince me that you can't use disguise self to make yourself look like a zombie, or a vampire, or a golem, or a babau, what, just because their creature types are different?

On that note, the 5e version of disguise self is very similarly worded, but adds this clarification on what "body type" means:


You make yourself--including your clothing, armor, weapons, and other belongings on your person--look different until the spell ends or until you use your action to dismiss it. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller and can appear thin, fat, or in between. You can't change your body type, so you must adopt a form that has the same basic arrangement of limbs. Otherwise, the extent of the illusion is up to you.

According to this, the notion of body type is simply the basic arrangement of limbs. You can't grow extra arms, or wings, or a tail, unless you already had those things to begin with, if you're an amputee, you still have lost limbs after using the spell, it has absolutely nothing to do with creature type, if it's humanoid in shape, upright with 2 arms and 2 legs connected to a torso with a head on top, then you can change into it with disguise self.


My two cents on the subject
Similar is a vague word. For example, you can argue Fireball and bird crap is similar because Fireball needs bat crap to cast. And by that extension you could say bird crap and sulfur is similar because sulfur can be used as Fireball's material component so that's similiar to bat crap which is similar to bird crap and rat crap. You can argue that everything in the universe is similar to one another. So context matters.

I've personally seen people claim certain people are similar to cockroaches and vultures.

The opposite is true too. I can argue Polymorph Self and Polymorph Others are not similar to each other because one can only affect the caster and the other can only affect anyone but the caster. Context matters.

So,
Is the feat asking for something mechanical like having the same subschool?
Is the feat asking for something that references polymorph directly?
Is the feat asking for something that lets you assume forms magically?
What is the feat asking for?

I can argue Polymorph and Dimensional Anchor are similar because both spells are 4th level core arcane spells on the wizard spell list. But does the feat work with Dimensional Anchor? No it doesn't because the feat needs you to assume forms magically.

So now we see what the feat is really asking. It's asking for ways that let you assume forms magically.

The feat, and its improved version, only talks about assuming forms magically.
It doesn't talk about anything specific to polymorph.
Nothing about type changes
Nothing about retaining hitpoints
Nothing about gaining racial bonus feats
Nothing about gaining hitpoints as if you rested.

The feat only talks about assuming forms magically. So from this we can conclude without a doubt that the feat is asking for something that lets you assume forms magically, like polymorph. Which means magicalmagicman is right, polymorph is just an example.



I think this is accurate. If you need to change the RAW to make your interpretation work, then your interpretation is not RAW.

I would gauge something similar to polymorph as physically changing forms while gaining at least some of the abilities and statistics of the creature in the process. If your change is purely cosmetic, I would not consider it to be similar to polymorph, as the change is just surface level, wheras polymorph affects your entire being. If you change yourself to appear to have claws with MCS for example, you can't even use them, because the claws are too flimsy to even have any effect, so if you can't even manifest real claws, how do you suddenly gain the ability to manifest the supernatural abilities of said form?

I will also continue to maintain that MCS never actually allows you to assume the form of specific creatures, as the text of the ability says nothing of the sort, but merely alter your own appearance, which may result in you LOOKING like said creature, but you're no more turning into that creature than putting on a convincing disguise would be.

[newguydude1]

Firstly note I said a humanoid shaped amorphous blob, secondly, the context of the ability is the disguise self spell. An illusion that has absolutely 0 care about creature type at all. Skeleton sure, I could see a point, because a skeleton is literally just bones, even if they are arranged in a humanoid shape, but are you going to try and convince me that you can't use disguise self to make yourself look like a zombie, or a vampire, or a golem, or a babau, what, just because their creature types are different?

i didnt say creature type. i said body type. body. type. i said blob is a no even if humanoid shaped. no skeletons or no blobs.

so im gonna ignore everything you said about creature type. because i said body type.

and even if its an illusion it gives a ****. if it didnt then you wouldnt even need the same body type.


On that note, the 5e version of disguise self is very similarly worded, but adds this clarification on what "body type" means:



According to this, the notion of body type is simply the basic arrangement of limbs. You can't grow extra arms, or wings, or a tail, unless you already had those things to begin with, if you're an amputee, you still have lost limbs after using the spell, it has absolutely nothing to do with creature type, if it's humanoid in shape, upright with 2 arms and 2 legs connected to a torso with a head on top, then you can change into it with disguise self.

according to this you can turn into a skeleton.
and according to this.... you can turn into a yak folk. {scrubbed}

so since there is no real definition of "body type" in the real world, and d&d's definition of body type in the spell is completely different from how people actually use body type in the real world (fat thin male female, all human)

i guess we should use a different edition definition of body type of the same spell.

i still say no to the blob, but yes to all the other examples.

[gogogome]

I would gauge something similar to polymorph as physically changing forms while gaining at least some of the abilities and statistics of the creature in the process. If your change is purely cosmetic, I would not consider it to be similar to polymorph, as the change is just surface level, wheras polymorph affects your entire being. If you change yourself to appear to have claws with MCS for example, you can't even use them, because the claws are too flimsy to even have any effect, so if you can't even manifest real claws, how do you suddenly gain the ability to manifest the supernatural abilities of said form?

I'm not saying what you just said is not reasonable. But it's not RAW. We are talking about Drown Healing level of legalese and pedantic-ness here.

If the feat wanted you to use something that also changed your type, physical ability scores, etc. it would've said so alongside "assume forms magically". If type change or some other statistical change is mandatory, even if it didn't list it in the prerequisite, it would've listed it somewhere in the feat description. But it didn't. There are many aspects to polymorph but the spell is only asking for the "assuming forms magically" aspect of polymorph, nothing else. So anything that lets you assume forms magically regardless of whether the stat changes are identical or significantly different to polymorph, qualifies. Because the only thing the spell asks for is "assuming forms".

Context matters. "similar effect to polymorph" by itself can mean everything and nothing. You can go in circles for ages which is what has been happening in this thread. But once you look at the context, there is only one conclusion.


I will also continue to maintain that MCS never actually allows you to assume the form of specific creatures, as the text of the ability says nothing of the sort, but merely alter your own appearance, which may result in you LOOKING like said creature, but you're no more turning into that creature than putting on a convincing disguise would be.

Your position is not a RAW position because you require to change the rules as written in Racial Emulation.

Every single person on this planet would agree with your interpretation if Racial Emulation did not exist. But since it does, legally speaking, MCS changes your form.

As unfortunate as it is, Rules Compendium does not say "assuming form" and "assuming appearance" are mutually exclusive to each other, and does in fact suggest physically assuming an appearance is "assuming a form". So there is no RAW way to disqualify Racial Emulation. In fact I'd say Rules Compendium is the final nail in the coffin.

Using MCS and ASA together is legal ruled as written.

[Doctor Despair]

Every single person on this planet would agree with your interpretation if Racial Emulation did not exist. But since it does, legally speaking, MCS changes your form.


To be fair, it is also internally consistent to conclude that Racial Emulation is nonfunctional, as MCS doesn't change your form. :smalltongue: Not the reading I would go for, obviously.

[newguydude1]

To be fair, it is also internally consistent to conclude that Racial Emulation is nonfunctional, as MCS doesn't change your form. :smalltongue: Not the reading I would go for, obviously.

if theres an instruction manual that says "fill the screw holes". there are two interpretations
1. you fill the screw holes.
2. you go find yourself some woman and fill them up/screw them with ****.
but... the box didn't come with women. it came with wood with screw holes bored into it.

do you say "this instruction manual is dysfunctional because it didnt come with women?"

no.
if there is a nondysfunctional interpretation that works with everything, no problem. then its not dysfunctional, and your interpretation is wrong because it creates dysfunction
seriously.
you cant say your dysfunctional interpretation is right and the instruction manual is **** when there is a nondysfunctional interpretationt that works with everything.

how can you say the rules are dysfunctional when it all works?
rules compendium says a thousand mask is a form changing effect.
rules compendium says you assume the form when you assume its appearance.
racial emulation says mcs lets you assume forms.
no dysfunction, everything fits, everything is consistent, everything works.


To be fair, it is also internally consistent to conclude that Racial Emulation is nonfunctional, as MCS doesn't change your form. :smalltongue: Not the reading I would go for, obviously.

and yet your here saying the interpretation that creates dysfunction could be the truth when there are interpretations that create no dysfunction. wtf. seriously.

you cant call something dysfunctional when it all works perfectly together.



I would gauge something similar to polymorph as physically changing forms while gaining at least some of the abilities and statistics of the creature in the process. If your change is purely cosmetic, I would not consider it to be similar to polymorph, as the change is just surface level, wheras polymorph affects your entire being. If you change yourself to appear to have claws with MCS for example, you can't even use them, because the claws are too flimsy to even have any effect, so if you can't even manifest real claws, how do you suddenly gain the ability to manifest the supernatural abilities of said form?

I will also continue to maintain that MCS never actually allows you to assume the form of specific creatures, as the text of the ability says nothing of the sort, but merely alter your own appearance, which may result in you LOOKING like said creature, but you're no more turning into that creature than putting on a convincing disguise would be.

not a single shred of rule citations. nor addressing any of the rule citations especially in rule compendium.

its fine if you house rule that way at your table but just admit your house ruling.
calling a feat description dysfunctional when rules compendium says its not dysfunctional.

[Crake]

not a single shred of rule citations. nor addressing any of the rule citations especially in rule compendium.

I cited the rules text of MCS where it very clearly states nothing about changing form, and only merely alters your appearance. It no more alters your form than putting on a convincing disguise does.

[Doctor Despair]

I cited the rules text of MCS where it very clearly states nothing about changing form, and only merely alters your appearance. It no more alters your form than putting on a convincing disguise does.

I'm curious -- would you conclude that Racial Emulation is nonfunctional then?

[Crake]

I'm curious -- would you conclude that Racial Emulation is nonfunctional then?

If you can't read past RAW, then yeah, but i've already explained that you can fix racial emulation by literally changing a single word in it's text. Most erratas are much more complex than changing literally a single word.

To me, racial emulation being nonfunctional without changing a single word is less of an issue than "I can use this level 1 ability to transform into creatures that I can use to break the game". You need to pick one disfunction, if you're happy with racial emulation, then you're also happy with level 1 ASA zodar wishes.

[newguydude1]

I cited the rules text of MCS where it very clearly states nothing about changing form, and only merely alters your appearance. It no more alters your form than putting on a convincing disguise does.

and you continually fail to address rules compendium.
ill repeat it one more time.

the changing form section shows when you assume an appearance, you also assume its form in the change shape description.
a thousand masks is under the section changing form and its a copy and paste of mcs.
therefore rules compendium agrees assuming an appearance physically is also assuming a form.
racial emulation abides by these rules so its not dysfunctional.

a nondysfunctional interpretation exist so you cant claim racial emulation is dysfunctional and say thats the truth.

your response:
ignore rules compendium
say mcs doesnt talk about assume form or appearance
therefore it doesnt assume the form because i say so and im ignoring rule compendium
therefore racial emulation is dysfunctional because i say so and im ignoring rule compendium
therefore i will change appearance to form even though rule compendium says when you assume the appearance you assume its form too.

problem with your response:
you ignore rule compendium.
you have no basis of saying mcs doesnt assume a form. none whatsoever.
even if you change form to appearance, it doesnt matter because rules compendium says changed appearance = changed form.

mcs doesnt say you assume an appearance or form. rules compendium elaborates mcs does. racial emulation says it does. how can this be any more open and shut?

[Crake]

and you continually fail to address rules compendium.
ill repeat it one more time.

the changing form section shows when you assume an appearance, you also assume its form in the change shape description.
a thousand masks is under the section changing form and its a copy and paste of mcs.
therefore rules compendium agrees assuming an appearance physically is also assuming a form.
racial emulation abides by these rules so its not dysfunctional.

a nondysfunctional interpretation exist so you cant claim racial emulation is dysfunctional and say thats the truth.

your response:
ignore rules compendium
say mcs doesnt talk about assume form or appearance
therefore it doesnt assume the form because i say so and im ignoring rule compendium
therefore racial emulation is dysfunctional because i say so and im ignoring rule compendium
therefore i will change appearance to form even though rule compendium says when you assume the appearance you assume its form too.

problem with your response:
you ignore rule compendium.
you have no basis of saying mcs doesnt assume a form. none whatsoever.
even if you change form to appearance, it doesnt matter because rules compendium says changed appearance = changed form.

mcs doesnt say you assume an appearance or form. rules compendium elaborates mcs does. racial emulation says it does. how can this be any more open and shut?

One interpretation inherently breaks the game, the other does not. I know which I prefer.

[newguydude1]

One interpretation inherently breaks the game, the other does not. I know which I prefer.

see once again you ignore rules compendium.

why do you think ignoring rules compendium is an option?
do you think you get to pick and choose which rules you follow and which you dont? i mean you can at your table but this discussion is not your table.

just tell me that you believe in a rules as written discussion your allowed to ignore rules compendium so i know you dont know what rules as written means.

rules compendium drops the number of interpretations to one. just one. your interpretation is proven wrong by rules compendium.
so tell me that you think its ok to ignore all the rules that say your wrong especially in a rules as written discussion.

your "interpretation" is not an interpretation because it is wrong. it defies the rules in rules compendium. it cannot coexist with rules compendium. and since rules compendium is 100% true and since it exists, your "interpretation" does not. so if you refuse to acknowledge rules compendium and still say your interpretation is right, you are house ruling. and im not gonna talk to you about the house rules at your table since im not at your table.

[AvatarVecna]

One interpretation inherently breaks the game, the other does not. I know which I prefer.

Can this, then, be taken as an acknowledgement that the rules interpretation you're favoring is not RAW but RAI, and the one you are arguing against is RAW but not RAI? It's important to clarify, since when somebody says "this is how these rules should work", it's easy for two people to hear very different meanings.

[Crake]

Can this, then, be taken as an acknowledgement that the rules interpretation you're favoring is not RAW but RAI, and the one you are arguing against is RAW but not RAI? It's important to clarify, since when somebody says "this is how these rules should work", it's easy for two people to hear very different meanings.

Well, I've already made it clear that based on the wording of MCS, you never actually assume a form, but merely alter your appearance, so by that interpretation of RAW, you can't benefit from ASA, since you never actually assume any forms. This interpretation of RAW makes Racial Emulation disfunctional, but as I've said, that's a very simple fix to how the feat is obviously intended to function to the point where I don't actually consider that disfunction as being an issue at all.


see once again you ignore rules compendium.

I'm ignoring rules compendium because it's irrelevant to the argument. I'm not saying that MCS is, or is not "similar to a polymorph effect", I'm saying that MCS, by it's own rules text, never actually lets you assume the form of another creature, but simply alters your own appearance. You can look like a creature, but you're not turning into a creature, and as such, since you're not actually turning into another creature, you cannot thusly actually gain any abilities of that creature. Saying it's a polymorph effect or not doesn't change that argument.

[gogogome]

Well, I've already made it clear that based on the wording of MCS, you never actually assume a form, but merely alter your appearance, so by that interpretation of RAW, you can't benefit from ASA, since you never actually assume any forms. This interpretation of RAW makes Racial Emulation disfunctional, but as I've said, that's a very simple fix to how the feat is obviously intended to function to the point where I don't actually consider that disfunction as being an issue at all.



I'm ignoring rules compendium because it's irrelevant to the argument. I'm not saying that MCS is, or is not "similar to a polymorph effect", I'm saying that MCS, by it's own rules text, never actually lets you assume the form of another creature, but simply alters your own appearance. You can look like a creature, but you're not turning into a creature, and as such, since you're not actually turning into another creature, you cannot thusly actually gain any abilities of that creature. Saying it's a polymorph effect or not doesn't change that argument.

1. I dont think you're fully reading what other people are saying.
Rules compendium says when you assume the appearance, you also assume the form.
So your interpretation and proposed fix doesn't change anything.

2. Here's the full text for Minor Change Shape

Minor Change Shape (Su): Changelings have the super natural ability to alter their appearance as though using a disguise self spell that affects their bodies but not their possessions. This ability is not an illusory effect, but a minor physical alteration of a changeling’s facial features, skin color and texture, and size, within the limits described for the spell. A changeling can use this ability at will, and the alteration lasts until she changes shape again. A changeling reverts to her natural form when killed. A true seeing spell reveals her natural form. When using this ability to create a disguise, a changeling receives a +10 circumstance bonus on Disguise checks. Using this ability is a full-round action

As you can see, Minor Change Shape says Changelings alter both their appearance and their form. You cannot revert to your natural form unless you are in the form of another. This is inline with Rules Compendium that says when you assume the appearance, you also assume the form. The two are not mutually exclusive.

edit: Here's polymorph with the exact same language

Incorporeal or gaseous creatures are immune to being polymorphed, and a creature with the shapechanger subtype can revert to its natural form as a standard action.

3. ASA working with MCS is not a dysfunction. Just because you call it a dysfunction doesn't make it true. Racial Emulation not working when ruled as written is a dysfunction.
Your interpretation creates dysfunction both in the Racial Emulation feat, and with Rules Compendium, and with the ability description of MCS itself.
newguydude1's interpretation creates no dysfunction.