Ethereal v Incorporeal

[ashansol]

Hi all! As they say, long time listener, first time caller! :)

My last gaming session pointed out a huge flaw in my build. The ability to hit incorporeal creatures without the 50% miss rate. I actually kind of find it rather infuriating that a Ghost Touch weapon allows a melee type to hit incorporeal things with impunity, while my spells have a 50/50 chance of missing.

To remedy the situation (which, lets be honest, isn't *really* a remedy - i need to DO something, while the Ghost Touch wielder just gets to be boss by using a +1 enhancement >.<), I'm considering 2 spells.

This is kind of important, because my character is a sorcerer, so spell selection is a major influence.

If I'm reading it correctly, the Ghostform spell from Spell Compendium p103, suggests spells would effect other incorporeal things the same as a Ghost Touch weapon. But does not explicitly say so. considering it's a level 8 spell, i would hope so, but can't say.

The other choice is Ethereal Jaunt, level 7 spell. But it doesn't actually explicitly state the ability to hit "incorporeal" creatures. It just says spells cast effect other ethereal creatures as though they were material.

Both spells suggest that force effects hit as normal, which leads me to believe both DO have the same effect of becoming attuned to the incorporeal.

Are ALL incorporeals considered ethereal?

Looking for arguments either way. Thanks!

[Zombimode]

Are ALL incorporeals considered ethereal?

You have that backwards. Or rather I think you are confusing source and effect.

"Ethereal" just means "is on the Ethereal Plane". This has several implications, one of them being that an ethereal creature is incorporeal on the material plane.
But a creature can be incorporeal for other reasons. A Shadow for instance is considered incorporeal because it is, well, just a shadow!


If you are concerned about incorporeal enemies look for spells with the force descriptor.

Also, I think you are shortselling the effect of incorporeality on weapon users: you say "Ghost Touch is just +1" but there is no "just" in that. A plain Ghost Touch weapon costs 83xx gp! That is a rather significant investment - especially for a secondary weapon. Putting Ghost Touch on your main weapon come at a much higher cost.

I mean, how many of your party members carry an Ghost Touch weapon arround?

In my experience in the vast majority of cases you just suck up the 50% miss chance.

[KillianHawkeye]

You have that backwards. Or rather I think you are confusing source and effect.

"Ethereal" just means "is on the Ethereal Plane". This has several implications, one of them being that an ethereal creature is incorporeal on the material plane.
But a creature can be incorporeal for other reasons. A Shadow for instance is considered incorporeal because it is, well, just a shadow!

This isn't quite correct, and the reason people get confused about this is GHOSTS!

So, first of all, Ethereal creatures are on the ethereal plane and not on the material plane at all, incorporeal or otherwise.

Now, the ethereal plane is coexistant at all points with the material plane, and force effects can cross that boundary from the material to the ethereal (but not in the reverse direction). But otherwise, outside of the Transdimensional Spell metamagic feat, or spells that allow ethereal travel, there's no interaction between the material and ethereal planes.

Ghosts, however, are a special case. Ghosts exist normally on the ethereal plane (by which I mean corporeally), but when using their ability to manifest, they become incorporeal on the material plane as well. The unusual aspect of this is that ghosts stay partly on the ethereal plane while doing this, and so they're sort of on both planes at once. This is unique to ghosts and is not the case for other incorporeal creatures.

A shadow, to take Zombimode's example, does not live on the ethereal plane. It's simply an incorporeal undead. You might find them on the plane of shadow (or on any other plane by chance), but they'll still be incorporeal because they're simply not made of a physical substance.

So you can't ever grapple a shadow, because they're always incorporeal, but you can grapple a ghost on the ethereal plane because they're just a normal dead person there.

[Khedrac]

More on the Etheral v Incorporeal part of it.

Most creatures that are Ethereal don't interact with the material plan at all.
The bunch that do, typified by the ghost, follow special rules. I am going to proceed with the ghost rules as most follow them (iirc.)
Fromt he point of view of the material plane a ghost can be manifest or non-manifest - if it is non-manifest then you cannot see it or interact with it - it is fully on the etheral plane; however this also means it cannot interact with you (so no attacks).
When a ghost manifests it becomes visible but remains incorporeal to creatures on the material plane (to creatues on the ethereal plane ghosts don't get any incorporeality benefits iirc).
Now it is manifest, force effects will affect it normally, but other magic energies suffer miss chances. Non-magic weapons (and energies e.g. fire) cannot hit it and magic weapons (and non-force energies) suffer a miss chance.

There are a special exceptions to the general rules above:
Dream Dwarves can see etheral creatures - this presumably means a non-manifest ghost can use it's horrifying appearace on a dream dwarf who is stuck on the material plane!
Transdimensional Spell is a metamagic feat that allows spells to cross planar boundaries eliminating miss chance.
Etc.

Eidt: ninja'd by KillianHawkeye's excellent post

[Ramza00]

Incorporeal means you are on the material plane but you have no matter. It is like being made of cotton candy but the cotton candy can not be touched. Still on the material plane though.

Ethereal means you are the ethereal plane not the material plane, but since the ethereal plane is nearby and is parallel to the material plane you can perceive in in an indirect way. As a metaphor think of mirrors and how mirrors reflect light but you can not enter the mirror for there is a boundary, where the material plane ends and the ethereal plane begins is the boundary of the mirror.

Some creatures such as ghosts can manifest and be treated as on both but special rules.

[Crake]

So, first of all, Ethereal creatures are on the ethereal plane and not on the material plane at all, incorporeal or otherwise.

This is actually untrue:


A traveler on the Ethereal Plane is invisible, incorporeal, and utterly silent to someone on the Material Plane.

Creatures on the ethereal planes are always incorporeally present on the material plane, and can be seen with the see invisibility spell, as that spell allows you to see onto the ethereal planes as part of it's natural function. The planes do only allow force spells and "Abjuration spells that effect ethereal beings" (whatever that means), to cross from the material to the ethereal, so there are exceptions to the standard incorporeality rules there, and nothing can go ethereal to material, so being ethereal puts you at a pretty significant disadvantage in a conflict, though no floor on the ethereal means you can just dip into the ground to avoid being targeted.

It doesn't really help in the circumstance of trying to hit an incorporeal creature on the material plane though, since ethereal creatures cannot affect material creatures in any way (bar a few explicit exceptions, such as a ninja's ghost strike ability at sufficiently high levels).


The ability to hit incorporeal creatures without the 50% miss rate.

Back to the actual topic at hand though, there's a metamagic for this: Transdimensional spell. For +1 spell level you can make your spells affect incorporeal creatures without the miss chance, among other things, such as blinking/ethereal/shadow creatures, or creatures within a rope trick (since spells normally cannot cross a rope trick's portal).

[noob]

Even the devs are confused: they do not give str scores to ghosts while they are corporeal(for ethereal creatures) when in the ethereal plane so it is a relevant characteristic.

[Firest Kathon]

Back to the actual topic at hand though, there's a metamagic for this: Transdimensional spell. For +1 spell level you can make your spells affect incorporeal creatures without the miss chance, among other things, such as blinking/ethereal/shadow creatures, or creatures within a rope trick (since spells normally cannot cross a rope trick's portal).

As a sorcerer, you should try to get a metamagic rod for it (saves you a feat and the increased casting time). I don't know if it exists printed, but unless your GM is particularly stubborn you should be able to convince him. Alternatively, pick one of the more useful force spells (e.g. Orb of Force) and otherwise let your Fighter friend hack away at the ghost. If you're generous, provide them a Mage Armor.


Even the devs are confused: they do not give str scores to ghosts while they are corporeal(for ethereal creatures) when in the ethereal plane so it is a relevant characteristic.

I don't know where you are getting your idea from, but the sample ghost in the D&D 3.5 Monster Manual has a strength score, and the template does not mention removing the strength score at all. If you happen to look at the Pathfinder Ghost, it was changed completely and no longer has any interaction with the ethereal plane - it is simply an incorporeal undead which exists fully on the material plane.

[Crake]

Even the devs are confused: they do not give str scores to ghosts while they are corporeal(for ethereal creatures) when in the ethereal plane so it is a relevant characteristic.

Uhh...


Abilities

Same as the base creature, except that the ghost has no Constitution score, and its Charisma score increases by +4.

So ghosts just retain their strength score from life while corporeal on the ethereal plane, not sure where you're getting that from.

[gijoemike]

Cross reference the spell blink. Lets ignore ghosts ( they are special ).

A standard incorporeal creature, say a shadow, there is a 50% chance to hit them when you ( said PC ) are 100% on the material plane and you are trying to affect them with elemental damage or magical melee attacks. 1/2 the time they are in the other plane miss < 50 / hit > 50

A standard incorporeal creature, say a shadow, there is a 50% chance to hit them when you ( said PC ) are 100% on the ethereal plane and you are trying to affect them with elemental damage or magical melee attacks. 1/2 the time they are in the other plane miss < 50 / hit > 50

A standard incorporeal creature, say a shadow, there is a 50% chance to hit them when you ( said PC ) are affected by blink and you are trying to affect them with elemental damage or magical melee attacks. 1/2 the time they are in the other plane but 1/2 the time so are you! So even though you miss them if you were in the material plane you now hit. But you can now hit them when on the physical plane, but you are on the ethereal plane making your hit a miss. If both rolls are < 50 you hit, or if both > 50 you hit.



So to solve your problem avoid trying to get to the ethereal plane, use Transdimensional spell or spells that are force effects. This removes the entire random roll. Also, let the other player shine for a moment. Ghost Touch is worthless 95% of the time. But that 5% of the time when you are fighting incorporeal creatures it is worth its weight in gold. The exact same thing goes for Seeking enchantment on ranged weapons that ignores concealment miss chances. Worthless until you are fighting a displacer beast or are in a obscuring mist.

[Zombimode]

A standard incorporeal creature, say a shadow, there is a 50% chance to hit them when you ( said PC ) are 100% on the ethereal plane and you are trying to affect them with elemental damage or magical melee attacks. 1/2 the time they are in the other plane miss < 50 / hit > 50

A standard incorporeal creature, say a shadow, there is a 50% chance to hit them when you ( said PC ) are affected by blink and you are trying to affect them with elemental damage or magical melee attacks. 1/2 the time they are in the other plane but 1/2 the time so are you! So even though you miss them if you were in the material plane you now hit. But you can now hit them when on the physical plane, but you are on the ethereal plane making your hit a miss. If both rolls are < 50 you hit, or if both > 50 you hit.


Uhm... no?

Many instances of incorporeality have no connection to the Ethereal plane at all, like the Shadow.

And I have no idea why you are bringing the Blink spell into the discussion. It is not relevant at all.

[Crake]

Cross reference the spell blink. Lets ignore ghosts ( they are special ).

A standard incorporeal creature, say a shadow, there is a 50% chance to hit them when you ( said PC ) are 100% on the material plane and you are trying to affect them with elemental damage or magical melee attacks. 1/2 the time they are in the other plane miss < 50 / hit > 50

A standard incorporeal creature, say a shadow, there is a 50% chance to hit them when you ( said PC ) are 100% on the ethereal plane and you are trying to affect them with elemental damage or magical melee attacks. 1/2 the time they are in the other plane miss < 50 / hit > 50

A standard incorporeal creature, say a shadow, there is a 50% chance to hit them when you ( said PC ) are affected by blink and you are trying to affect them with elemental damage or magical melee attacks. 1/2 the time they are in the other plane but 1/2 the time so are you! So even though you miss them if you were in the material plane you now hit. But you can now hit them when on the physical plane, but you are on the ethereal plane making your hit a miss. If both rolls are < 50 you hit, or if both > 50 you hit.



So to solve your problem avoid trying to get to the ethereal plane, use Transdimensional spell or spells that are force effects. This removes the entire random roll. Also, let the other player shine for a moment. Ghost Touch is worthless 95% of the time. But that 5% of the time when you are fighting incorporeal creatures it is worth its weight in gold. The exact same thing goes for Seeking enchantment on ranged weapons that ignores concealment miss chances. Worthless until you are fighting a displacer beast or are in a obscuring mist.

I don't believe miss chances stack like that in dnd, for the explicit reason that it just starts to get absurd to keep track of, you just use the highest miss chance.

[Zombimode]

I don't believe miss chances stack like that in dnd, for the explicit reason that it just starts to get absurd to keep track of, you just use the highest miss chance.

I've not see any indication that miss chances wouldn't stack. Provided that they don't have overlapping effects of course.

An invisible person that stands in a fog wouldn't get both 50% from total concealment and 20% from concealemt - because those are just different grades on the same scale.

An invisible creature that is also blinking would get miss chances from both invisibility and blink: even if you would coincidantally hit the target you can't see (which is what the miss chance from total concealment represents) it may happen that the target is blinked just at this moment. The Blink would only account for a 20% miss change as per the spell description as the invisibility is already accounted for.
If the creatures is protected by a Shield of Entropy spell it would also gain an additional 20% miss chance against ranged attacks because the effect from Shield of Entropy represents something different from both the concealment from invisibility and the there/not there effect from blink.

As long as you think of effects in what they represent (instead of just noting there immediate mechanical effect) this is all very easy to adjucate.

[Crake]

I've not see any indication that miss chances wouldn't stack. Provided that they don't have overlapping effects of course.

An invisible person that stands in a fog wouldn't get both 50% from total concealment and 20% from concealemt - because those are just different grades on the same scale.

An invisible creature that is also blinking would get miss chances from both invisibility and blink: even if you would coincidantally hit the target you can't see (which is what the miss chance from total concealment represents) it may happen that the target is blinked just at this moment. The Blink would only account for a 20% miss change as per the spell description as the invisibility is already accounted for.
If the creatures is protected by a Shield of Entropy spell it would also gain an additional 20% miss chance against ranged attacks because the effect from Shield of Entropy represents something different from both the concealment from invisibility and the there/not there effect from blink.

As long as you think of effects in what they represent (instead of just noting there immediate mechanical effect) this is all very easy to adjucate.

Yeah, I understand the logic behind it, i just swear there was a rule somewhere that said miss chances don't stack, that you simply apply the largest miss chance, but maybe im thinking about concealment specifically.

[Ramza00]

Yeah, I understand the logic behind it, i just swear there was a rule somewhere that said miss chances don't stack, that you simply apply the largest miss chance, but maybe im thinking about concealment specifically.

Not going to look it up right now, but if I recall it was a matter of debate prior to the Rules Compendium which settled the issue.

[ashansol]

You guys are all awesome! I never expected this amount of discussion. I've been on the road, so haven't been able to respond as fast as I would like to have.

For all who suggested it, I will definitely be taking the Transdimensional Spell feat @Lv24. If I'm not mistaken, the +1 won't apply to spells that have Arcane Thesis applied. So basically free.

As a point of order, being that our group is level 22-24, the +1 Ghost Touch is not really a painful purchase, and I still believe, gold costs pale in comparison to feat costs. So I still feel that spending a feat to do what a measly +1 weapon bonus does is painful.

From the rest of the conversation, I feel like the consensus is Ethereal is incorporeal, but incorporeal isn't necessary Ethereal. Square vs. Rectangle argument.

I *still* don't know what to think about the 8th level spell Ghostform. I guess in my opinion it still suggests that the ability to reliably hit incorporeal creatures is 100%. Like Ghost Touch weapons it seems to indicate the ability to reliably hit incorporeal things.

However, as many of you pointed out, the REASON for being incorporeal vary. Ethereal, or Shadow, or whatever.

I figure if "ghost touch" in a weapon basically guarantees a hit, ghostform should do the same, albeit with the cost of a spell.

Thanks everyone for your insight!

[Doctor Despair]

Random tangent to the topic of this thread: is there a difference between ethereal vs incorporeal living creatures when it comes to breathing, eating, drinking, and/or sleeping?

[hamishspence]

You guys are all awesome! I never expected this amount of discussion. I've been on the road, so haven't been able to respond as fast as I would like to have.

For all who suggested it, I will definitely be taking the Transdimensional Spell feat @Lv24. If I'm not mistaken, the +1 won't apply to spells that have Arcane Thesis applied. So basically free.

As a point of order, being that our group is level 22-24, the +1 Ghost Touch is not really a painful purchase, and I still believe, gold costs pale in comparison to feat costs. So I still feel that spending a feat to do what a measly +1 weapon bonus does is painful.

From the rest of the conversation, I feel like the consensus is Ethereal is incorporeal, but incorporeal isn't necessary Ethereal. Square vs. Rectangle argument.

I *still* don't know what to think about the 8th level spell Ghostform. I guess in my opinion it still suggests that the ability to reliably hit incorporeal creatures is 100%. Like Ghost Touch weapons it seems to indicate the ability to reliably hit incorporeal things.

The Phantom template from MM5 might work - LA - though, so unless the DM rules that LA - is the same as LA +0, it might be problematic for PCs. It has the following ability:

Phantom Strike: "For the purposes of resolving spells (and a bunch of other things) .... a phantom is considered to be both incorporeal and corporeal, when it is incorporeal. Thus, the phantom receives its normal Strength bonus on attack rolls and damage roles, and it can use material components to cast its spells".

Combined with the fact that the Incorporeal subtype (which is gained whenever a creature "goes incorporeal") states that a creature has a 50% chance of ignoring magic from a corporeal source, and you have a way of automatically hitting incorporeal creatures with magic, and at the same time benefiting from certain corporeal benefits.



I *still* don't know what to think about the 8th level spell Ghostform. I guess in my opinion it still suggests that the ability to reliably hit incorporeal creatures is 100%. Like Ghost Touch weapons it seems to indicate the ability to reliably hit incorporeal things.

I'd agree with that. From the way the Incorporeal Subtype is worded in the MM5 glossary, if you are an "incorporeal source" you have no 50% miss chance against another "incorporeal source".


Regarding ethereal creatures as opposed to "regular incorporeal creatures" - from the way Etherealness is worded in the DMG, "going incorporeal" while still on the Material Plane, does not grant any bonus to hitting an Ethereal creature with magic.

An Ethereal Creature is completely immune to all magic from a creature on the Material Plane, that is not a Force Effect (or certain Abjuration spells). Whether the opposing caster is Incorporeal or not.

So, if you "went incorporeal" against an Ethereal Creature, and started throwing regular fireballs at it, they would do nothing.

Whereas if you "went incorporeal" against another incorporeal creature that is on the Material Plane, such as a Shadow, your miss chance with magic would go from 50% to 0%, yes.




Creatures on the ethereal planes are always incorporeally present on the material plane, and can be seen with the see invisibility spell, as that spell allows you to see onto the ethereal planes as part of it's natural function.
Using the DMG definition of Ethereal, a Ghost Touch weapon will not affect a traveller that is on the Ethereal Plane. It hammers home that the creature is not present on the Material Plane. It'll only work on a manifest ghost, not an unmanifest one.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#etherealness


As such: I would say this line:



A traveler on the Ethereal Plane is invisible, incorporeal, and utterly silent to someone on the Material Plane.
should not be read as "the traveller has the Incorporeal Subtype while it is on the Ethereal Plane" - that "insubstantial" is a more accurate description. It's the word used in Etherealness instead:


Ethereal creatures are invisible, inaudible, insubstantial, and scentless to creatures on the Material Plane.

Creatures with the Incorporeal subtype don't need to eat (according to Rules Compendium). Travellers on the Ethereal plane, do (Manual of the Planes specifically states this).

[Crake]

should not be read as "the traveller has the Incorporeal Subtype while it is on the Ethereal Plane" - that "insubstantial" is a more accurate description. It's the word used in Etherealness instead:



Creatures with the Incorporeal subtype don't need to eat (according to Rules Compendium). Travellers on the Ethereal plane, do (Manual of the Planes specifically states this).

I mean, it says specifically with regards to people on the material plane, creatures on the ethereal plane are still corporeal to each other. However, the alternate definition of being insubstantial does seem to work better.


As a point of order, being that our group is level 22-24, the +1 Ghost Touch is not really a painful purchase, and I still believe, gold costs pale in comparison to feat costs. So I still feel that spending a feat to do what a measly +1 weapon bonus does is painful.

As mentioned elsewhere in the thread, all +1 metamagic rods share the same prices, so it wouldn't be unreasonable for you to ask your DM to make a metamagic rod of transdimensional spell for the same price as an equivalent metamagic rod of extend spell, if you simply want to throw money at the problem.

Likewise, I would suggest to your teammates rather than adding a +1 weapon effect to their weapons (which scales in price, and is also an opportunity cost on what their weapon could have otherwise had), they could isntead get a truedeath augment crystal, a lesser one only costs 5000gp, and deals +1d6 damage to undead in addition to adding the ghost touch property to your weapon, while the greater one costs 10,000gp and adds on the ability to critically strike or sneak attack undead as if they were living.