OOTS #276 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

Better late than never, here's the new comic.

[Ilover_Juventad]

Woohoo, first post! Great as ever Rich, keep it up!

[Sleffie]

Yaaaaaaay!

I'm still laughing about the Stick up Ass joke, I loved the Miko/Roy conversation going like this:
"You need to compromise a little." - "A paladin never compromises." - "Does a paladin ever
remove the stick from their ass?" - "No. It's a class feature."

And I love this last one even more.

Yay Giant, Yay!

[Gralamin]

woot great comic!

SOON ISNT SHOJO!

poor krarger, and go dwarven builders!

[jaqueses]

Why must you draw this out?

Good job though.

[Rei_Jin]

Alright, cool comic

Now, to wait for the next one.

*starts rocking back and forwards like a fan-boy*

[Maelstrom]

And things become clearer :)

Still, the:
The Story continues tomorrow before Monday

has got to be the best ;) Get some sleep...

[Deuce]

Why must you draw this out?



Because shadow puppets don't scan nearly as well ;)

Another great comic. Loved the "class feature" coming up again. Loved the epic scope. And as a home owner, I can attest that you really need to make sure all that construction is up to code . . .

[Grimblade]

Sweet! A new comic!

Holey Brotherhood... Baron Pineapple... LOL!!

Great job as always, Giant!

Edit: Woot! First page!

[Valiena]

Rather long. Long is good. Good work as usual. How many crayons in your box? I always liked the big box of 64 when I was a kid.

[Moraine_Sedai]

Why must you draw this out?


Because shadow puppets don't scan nearly as well ;). . .

LMAO! Very punny. ;)

Great set of strips, Giant. I'm thoroughly enjoying the "back" story of this and even - glutton for punishment that I am - am enjoying the "cliff-hanger"ness of it all. :D

[pylonhead]

I really like what you've done with the whole crayon exposition. I smiled when I saw the striking similarities between the initial rift closers and our current friends.

Your work is fresh and fun. Keep up the good work, and remember that if we whine, it's only because we're jonesing.

[Flash]

Cutting corners to skim money for the rumpus room? Blast it! Will they never learn that such pointless excesses lead to a weakening of the very fabric of existence???? Ah well, gotta go play video games.

Great strip Giant, well worth the wait. Look forward to further exposition.

[xrestassuredx]

Wow .. explains a lot, yet -- still so many questions!

Stupid dwarves and their billiards..

[Tomada]

Really, Giant, go get some sleep.

I already went through a WHOLE WEEK with only 9 hours of sleep TOTAL. And it was not pretty at the end...

if you do this, I really doubt you can WAKE UP before monday.... drawing a new comic? pift!

[Leo_Forestclaw]

OK, this rocks!

Not only was there great art and moving story progression but two of the great moments from literature and film:

The Man still owes be money and shifty sub-contractors.

When can I buy the T-shirt that reads, "The Giant is my Master now..."


woot great comic!

SOON ISNT SHOJO!

poor krarger, and go dwarven builders!

While I haven't made any guess one way or the other on the Soon vs. Shojo thread, what in this comic made you think conclusively that he isn't?

Edit - added question

[Caledonian]

A part of me wonders why Soon can't arrange for his wife to be Raised from the Dead.

Another part answers that, if the Snarl can destroy things on the most fundamental level, that implies it can - no, must - annihilate souls when it attacks.

No trip to the Outer Planes. No eternity with a beloved god (or followed cause, if you're into that sort of thing). No Raise Dead. No Resurrection. No nothing. Just Unmaking.

Mijung and Kraagor aren't dead. You can return from the dead. They've ceased to be, as if they never were, and nothing - not a Wish, not the intervention of a god, nothing - can bring them back again.

[The Giant]

Yes, sorry, it's implied in #274 that the Snarl devours souls when it kills you. No resurrection is possible.

[Mike]

Wait, wait, wait.

In #196, Xycon says that Serini recorded the locations whilst the other five party members built the strongholds, but we pretty clearly see Kraagor getting turned to stone in today's. How does one build a gate when one cannot move?

[Hyrael]

Giant, I salute you.

"the holes have a right to exist." sounds like a enviromentalist crossed with a apocalypse cult.

First Page!

Good to see it up before I had to sleep.

Not as funny as "dude, dont taunt the god-killing abomination," but still quite funny

[Caledonian]

Also, I suggest that when more gaming content is added to this site again, the very first thing that goes up should be the stats for the dreaded Baron Pineapple.

[Tetralemma]

Dwarven engineers cutting corners!? Say it ain't so Giant!

Great comic! Keep it up!

[Tomada]

GO TO SLEEP GIANT!!!!


ok, not so polite, buuuuuuuuuuuuuut....

I think you may really need it.

Even though you still draws and writes better than anyone I know, even after 2 days sleepless...

[Caledonian]

Wait, wait, wait.

In #196, Xycon says that Serini recorded the locations whilst the other five party members built the strongholds, but we pretty clearly see Kraagor getting turned to stone in today's. How does one build a gate when one cannot move?
That's a monument built over his grave, not a Flesh-to-Stone'd body.

[Zargon]

What!? First panel, goldilocks seems to have misplaced her bears? Or do I just need more sleep...
(p.s. great strip!)

[Zaku_III]

Excellent comic. Any reason for Soon's change of color pattern from the first panel to the one with the party?

[Tomada]

You know... I just realized how MANY PEOPLE stayed up till late to see the new comic!

Giant, have you been using charm, sugestion, fascinate or any other mind affecting ability on us?

Last I checked my SR was right there and working.........

[Mike]

That's a monument built over his grave, not a Flesh-to-Stone'd body.

Oh.

But still, how does one build a gate when one is dead?

[OmegaDonut]

So that's how the Water Dungeon got cut out of Dorukon's castle!

[PhoeKun]

So, like all other things in life, we can blame the gate problem on landscapers... lousy freeloaders. I wonder what kind of corners you can cut on a reality strengthening gate?

Did anyone else notice the reference to the missing water sigil way back when?

Great comic, Giant. Worth the wait for me. I hope it was worth the lack of sleep for you. I've found each strip in this crayon series is better than the one before it, and the story continues tomorrow bit is a thing of last-minute genius.

I look forward to the conclusion.

[Hyrael]

A part of me wonders why Soon can't arrange for his wife to be Raised from the Dead.

Another part answers that, if the Snarl can destroy things on the most fundamental level, that implies it can - no, must - annihilate souls when it attacks.

No trip to the Outer Planes. No eternity with a beloved god (or followed cause, if you're into that sort of thing). No Raise Dead. No Resurrection. No nothing. Just Unmaking.

Mijung and Kraagor aren't dead. You can return from the dead. They've ceased to be, as if they never were, and nothing - not a Wish, not the intervention of a god, nothing - can bring them back again.

owch. thats nasty. But, couldnt a Wish bring them back? it wouldnt be raising them, it would be creating exact copies of their bodies/souls with full memories. Not technicaly raising, but for all intents and purposes the same thing.

It reminds me of the way magic works in Magic, the Gathering. In MTG, you cant bring people back. Red cant do anything about it. Green and white can bring them back from the brink of death, blue can create an illusion or magical construct, and black, well, you get the idea. Or, you can 'summon' them. but, thats just creating a being out of mana, that has the qualities of the person as you knew them, its not the true person...

[Wunderhund]

I love how Belkar totally called it way back in #71 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=71): "He might want to sue his contractor, stuff keeps breaking." ;D

[Caledonian]

Giant, I hope you've read my anecdote in the Discussion #275 thread.

Just saying, is all. (Also, why does Girard insinuate that Kraagor's death will be forgotten to Soon? I don't get it.)

[Gez]

This shows that our lichy friend doesn't know the actual whole story (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=196).

But I wonder who guarded Kraagor's secret fortress, since she's dead. Dorukan is dead, too, now; and presumably Lirian was killed during the forest fire incident. The fates of Serini and Girard are unknown.

Kraagor's death will be forgotten because the whole adventure is a secret, practically nobody outside the group will ever hear of her sacrifice, so of course this means she'll be forgotten eventually.

(The snarl attacked the comic with a Typo of Doom, on exactly in "I'm pretty sure that's excatly what will happen.")

[Wunderhund]

Giant, I hope you've read my anecdote in the Discussion #275 thread.

Just saying, is all. (Also, why does Girard insinuate that Kraagor's death will be forgotten to Soon? I don't get it.)
Because they were going to keep the whole "rifts" thing a secret, meaning that they could never explain to anyone what had really happened to Kraagor. From the sound of it, it was Soon's idea, and not everyone in the party was happy with it - but I guess they went along. Soon seems to have had the same outlook on paladinhood that Miko has. . .

[Caledonian]

Maybe it's a pun that Kraagor's death will be Soon-forgotten.

(Hey, is Kraagor male or female? I have a hard time telling with dwarves, and the writing in Serini's journal is so small it's difficult to make out. Does it say "Mean! Grr!" or "Meani Grrl" [meanie girl]?)

[PhoeKun]

Maybe it's a pun that Kraagor's death will be Soon-forgotten.

These puns are bad for my heart. Are you trying to kill me?

[Leo_Forestclaw]

Excellent comic. Any reason for Soon's change of color pattern from the first panel to the one with the party?

As priests tend to be my favorite class, I took the change in color to note one of two things: a change from diplomatic attire to adventuring gear or his order is mindful of changes in the seasons. A comtemporay conterpart is the coloration of the vestments in the Catholic clergy depending on the time of year.

Edit: cause I shouldn't try to write before bedtime...

[Caledonian]

These puns are bad for my heart. Are you trying to kill me?
Yes. Thus far, however, my teams of ninja death sprites have had difficulty hitting you with their spiky doom-from-above. You're quite a wily one, you are. So I must resort to terrible punning. Also, Spoonerisms, when I have the time.

[Godhand]

Phoe-Kun, I might kill you, but thats entirely unrelated.

In any event, excellent comic. Finding out Lirian was a druid made my day, I was wondering when we'd eventually meet a druid. (they were the last basic class not yet seen in the comic... unless you count illusionists, but theres one here too so moot point.)

Soooo was Kraagor killed? Or sucked into the portal? Or what? Mr. Giant kinda left that one open.

[ElfMaster2000]

I love all the similarities between Miko and Soon! great comic

[Caledonian]

Were Illusionist-Ranger double-classings even possible in 2nd Ed?

[Godhand]

Pretty much any dual class was allowed in 2nd edition if you had the stats for it, or maybe im thinking 1st... But im pretty sure it was 2nd as well.

[Wunderhund]

Soooo was Kraagor killed? Or sucked into the portal? Or what? Mr. Giant kinda left that one open.I think he became the lock on the rift, meaning that he couldn't be un-petrified without opening the rift again.

Also, it looks like there is a rift in Azure City...

[Brasswatchman]

Speaking of Xykon - what do you think this suggests is his Great Big Evil Master Plan of Doom? It sounds like he's figured out some way to control the Snarl, or maybe merge with it somehow... Yeeesh. The power to kill gods in a heartbeat. That sounds like BBEG material to me...

[hunisu]

the stick up the ass comment is the best! will it just grow there when you take the lvl :)

[Pedantic]

If you were human, you could always dual class that way.

[Leo_Forestclaw]

Were Illusionist-Ranger double-classings even possible in 2nd Ed?

In a weird way, yes. There were a couple of Specialty Priests who, for all intents and purposes, were Illusionist/Rangers. You just had to look REALLY hard in the Skills and Powers rule set. If memory serves there was an example of one in the 2ndED Faiths and Avatars series.

Semi off topic but Forestclaw over there was created under 2ndED rules and using the one of the Specialty Priest kits in F&A was a CG Druid/Ranger (back when druids had to be neutral) who in conversion to 3.5 rules became a CG half-elven Lythari/Ranger/Divine Champion. (sometime you just gotta love it when you roll a natural 0/00 on a god call...)

[PhoeKun]

Yes. Thus far, however, my teams of ninja death sprites have had difficulty hitting you with their spiky doom-from-above. You're quite a wily one, you are. So I must resort to terrible punning. Also, Spoonerisms, when I have the time.

Oh. That certainly explains the recent increase in ninja attacks of late. At least you're honest. Carry on then.

[fwiffo]

First, a little spelling error. Girard's "Actually, I'm pretty sure that's excatly..."

Where is the evidence that Soon is not Shojo? I didn't see it in this strip.

Shouldn't gods pay more attention to this whole affair, considering the deicidal nature of the beastie? I mean, you don't want Deus Ex in your adventure, but still...

"...defeated those who would use them for their own purposes"? Sounds like there is some kind of power to be derived from the control of the rift. After all, would Baron Pineapple and Holey Brotherhood both be wrong? I don't think so.

[Wunderhund]

Speaking of Xykon - what do you think this suggests is his Great Big Evil Master Plan of Doom? It sounds like he's figured out some way to control the Snarl, or maybe merge with it somehow... Yeeesh. The power to kill gods in a heartbeat. That sounds like BBEG material to me...

Whatever the case may be, I think it's safe to say that Xykon is smarter than the Holey Brotherhood and Baron Pineapple combined. I'm sure he has a very clever plan... which probably won't be revealed to us for many more strips. :(

[FlawedParadigm]

I was under the impression that Kraagor IS the gate - that the rift was sealed within the body of Kraagor, and held in check by a body of stone and a will of iron, dedicated to protecting the whole of creation with the rage that only the soul of a barbarian could provide.

Of course, I could just have a ridiculous flair for the dramatic and it could just be a statue commemorating the burial site (presuming there was anything of Kraagor left to bury post-sacrifice).

[Grimblade]

I posted this in the #275 discussion thread, but as luck would have it, that was right around the time the new comic came out, and I doubt anyone saw it.

This series isn't the first time the Giant has made a strip with crayon- check out comic #146 and scroll to the bottom.

I doubt it really means anything, as it's about the Giant at a convention, and I apologize if anyone has already pointed this out, but I thought it was cool.

Grats to the Giant on another great strip. Don't work too hard! I've done it before and it's no fun at all.

[Count-Tyr]

Fantastic strip, love the stick joke, time for a well earned rest there giant

[Odd_Thomas]

ditto^ and great job.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Well worth the wait; nothing beats the PCs having to fix the shortcomings of last generation's (well, two generations ago, I guess) uber-adventurers. Also, the Order of the Rfits are all awesome, and deserve fancomics.

A few obvious responses, then I'm off to a Predictions thread.


Where is the evidence that Soon is not Shojo? I didn't see it in this strip.
Me neither. Still, referring to oneself in the third person? Such emotional detachment from the defining time of your life? He's not talking like Soon would while relating the story, unless he's spent a lot of effort emotionally distancing himself from the memories.

Shouldn't gods pay more attention to this whole affair, considering the deicidal nature of the beastie? I mean, you don't want Deus Ex in your adventure, but still...
Explained by Shojo and V in response to Roy asking the same question, in the top panel to the right of the five-panel Riftview. Basically, the best the gods could do would be unmaking reality again...

"...defeated those who would use them for their own purposes"? Sounds like there is some kind of power to be derived from the control of the rift. After all, would Baron Pineapple and Holey Brotherhood both be wrong? I don't think so.
Well yeah. What else would Xykon be after? Like all BBEGs, and arcane casters in particular, he's arrogant enough to think he can control the Primal Forces of Evil, or something like that. Whether he can succeed or not remains to be seen. And I'm straying dangerously close to spoiler/predictions now...

[Maxymiuk]

Also, it looks like there is a rift in Azure City...


Mwahahaha, called it with my first post too. *struts* ;D ;D

Now I have to wonder... what happens now that two of the gates are destroyed? *casts Resist Speculation on self*

[Istielthia]

Going to sleep now, after a long session of WoW, but decided I must check to see if the new OoTS was up before I went. Couple of things though.

I know someone has pointed this out already (too tired/lazy to search-n-quote) but I'm fairly sure the stone Kraagor is a statue, not a petrified version. From the first panel of this comic, we can see that The Snarl does not necessarily destroy the bodies of those it kills. Soon is holding Mijung in his arms as Lirian comes upon them. I think its safe to assume that while the bodies may not be destroyed (usless they are somehow sucked into the rift, maybe stuck on its claws :o ) the soul or essence of that person is completely annihilated.

Ok, sleepy times!

[Tawkis]

Rockin stuff, 30 seconds and I'm already suffering withdrawl...

[Cirin]

owch. thats nasty. But, couldnt a Wish bring them back? it wouldnt be raising them, it would be creating exact copies of their bodies/souls with full memories. Not technicaly raising, but for all intents and purposes the same thing.This thing kills gods in one round, not just a god, but multiple major deities in one round. It is a hole in reality itself, the very fabric of creation turned into incarnate destruction and chaos. In other words, what it destroys, is gone forever.

Some things are beyond the power of a Wish.

Most DM's I've known have treated Wishes as a kind of command or summons to compel a deity or other powerful entity (noble genie, demon lord, archangel, ect) to grant what you ask, which is why it's usually twisted (most beings strongly resent being commanded, and many beings who grant wishes are already of ill temper). In other words, if it's beyond the power of the gods, it's beyond the power of a Wish.

You couldn't use a Wish to turn yourself into a God (or if you could, you know it would come with such a heinous catch that you'd never be able to use it). Remember, in 3rd edition, it is possible for a Wish to just outright fail if it's asking for too much (or you might only get a partial fulfillment or a twisted one, but it can just fail if you go too far).

Using a Wish to create a high level adventurer who has all the memories, experiences, and abilities, essentially an exact copy, of a being who was utterly wiped from reality sounds like something that might be beyond that line. It's one of those "DM says you're gone utterly" kind of plot deaths.

If a simple 9th level spell could undo being killed by Snarl, I'd imagine the Gods of the East would have been brought back by the other gods by now.

After reading this, in the "campaign" of OotS, now I'm imagining Soon & company as the prior campaign the GM ran in the same setting, years before with another group of players, and now he's come back to the same setting for a new campaign set 66 years later, where the new PC's accidentally start to undo the work of the first party.

This strip does at least explain why Shojo (if he really is Soon, which is implied, but not confirmed) has such a personal interest in protecting the gates, and why nobody else has even heard of them (Soon & company created the gates and kept them secret, and the gods kept knowledge of the rifts somewhat secret, and apparently Soon & company knew, and it looks like the other mortals who knew about those rifts were villains that Soon & company defeated).

Of course, with it being such a huge secret, the snarl, the rifts, the gates, and it all being a giant (so to say) secret, it's pretty nearly impossible for any kind of criminal intent to be proven, the story pretty much makes it clear that there is no way the OotS could have possibly known that it was any kind of attack on the fabric of reality, and that as far as they knew, the gate could just has likely have been something that Xylon built as some horrible weapon (going back and checking, he did trick the OotS into thinking that touching it would foil his plans, instead of aiding them).

Now for the prediction I see coming from all this:
So, really, Xylon is the mutual enemy of Shojo/Soon and the OotS. When it comes out that Xylon tricked them into destroying the gate, and they had no idea what was going on and were trying to defeat him, they'll be exonerated. Or at least they'll be found far less liable, and be sent to help fix the problem by sealing the rift back, but now having to deal with Xylon's new army he's got.

I think we're also likely to get a cutaway pretty soon to Xylon and what he's doing with that broken gate now, especially since we've got a much clearer picture of what it was. Now we just have to find out why he wants them opened, since the rifts have the potential to unleash a being that, the last time it was unleashed destroyed a pantheon in a few rounds and the entire world in 27 minutes, and the only way to stop it once it's out is for the gods to destroy the world, to prevent their own destruction. Why would anybody want to unleash it who wasn't a total nihilist who actively sought the destruction of the world? Does Xylon want to become a god, and as he does so unleash Snarl, and escape to the outer planes while snarl kills all the other gods, so he can come back and make the world in his image?

[ArlEammon]

Giant. I'd like to talk to you again. What's your AIM?

[although]

So that's how the Water Dungeon got cut out of Dorukon's castle!
Not to mention the incident of Celia crashing through the vault ceiling while petrified...

[Zantetsuken_Kokoro]

Well, as I recall from the diary, Serini seemed to like the illusionist.

Perhaps from this comic we can infer the feeling was mutual? ;)

[theKOT]

Hooray! Greatness! Yay! Ok, I think I can get through a senYay!tence now..... shoot. Anyway, so much for that "The red mountain castle was prexisting that's why the self-destruct rune was there" theory. I didn't like it anyway. I can't wait for before Monday! I gotta get some sleep....

[Omniplex]

(Hey, is Kraagor male or female? I have a hard time telling with dwarves, and the writing in Serini's journal is so small it's difficult to make out. Does it say "Mean! Grr!" or "Meani Grrl" [meanie girl]?)
Kraagor is definitly male. If you look close, you notice that his bottom is flat. Girls, women, and other female humanoid shaped things have round bottoms.

[afflictedkender]

Waaaait a minute. Now that I think about it, if Lirian's gate was destroyed by Redcloak in an accidental fire (as evidenced in Comic #196), how come the sapphire guard never sent anyone to capture/kill him? Unless the diviners can only sense if someone touches the self-destruct rune... (another cutback? instead of buying cleaning supplies, just install one self-destruct rune? :P )

[Sol]

Dear Giant,

You, Sir, know how to tell a story. It is a rare gift. I can only hope you treasure it as much as we do.

Thank you for keeping us on our toes, for not letting us know day to day, week to week whether the next strip will make us laugh, cry, or think. In the world of comics your work is unparalleled.

Keep up the good work.

-Sol

[soozenw]

Dear Giant,

You, Sir, know how to tell a story. It is a rare gift. I can only hope you treasure it as much as we do.

Thank you for keeping us on our toes, for not letting us know day to day, week to week whether the next strip will make us laugh, cry, or think. In the world of comics your work is unparalleled.

Keep up the good work.

-Sol

i agree! awesome job yet AGAIN rich! (i woke my boyfriend up i was laughing so loud at the stick up the ass remark...)

[ArlEammon]

I forgot to congratulate you for the nice work Giant.

[SteveMB]

Speaking of Xykon - what do you think this suggests is his Great Big Evil Master Plan of Doom? It sounds like he's figured out some way to control the Snarl, or maybe merge with it somehow... Yeeesh. The power to kill gods in a heartbeat. That sounds like BBEG material to me...
The question is how much Xykon knows (i.e. how much was mentioned/hinted at in that diary) about just exactly what he's attempting to unleash. He may simply be in way over his skull....

[2000eyes]

re introducing soon and the other ppl like that was awesome (although he wasnt really introduced just by a book xykon had) ;D

[mec]

Waaaait a minute. Now that I think about it, if Lirian's gate was destroyed by Redcloak in an accidental fire (as evidenced in Comic #196), how come the sapphire guard never sent anyone to capture/kill him?

Maybe the Sapphire Guard did send somebody to investigate the destruction of Lirian's Gate.

[humanpylon]

This is getting to be a great story! Not that it wasn't great before, but the backstory just adds so much!

You know it must be nice for Duroken and pals to have something to spend their adventuring treasure on. I was never into building castles when I played Dnd, so the treasure would just pile up and pile up and I never had a use for it.

[Godhand]

Waitaminute, if Lirians gate was destroyed...does that mean shes dead too? We have only one confirmed death (Durokan), but im pretty sure Kraagor got sucked up and most probably brutally slaughered...but ya never know. Giant, you making my head spin, and not in a good way.

[Eternal-Darthness]

I had dragged myself off to sluggy, kevin and kell, etc. and was still suffering withdrawal. Thanks Giant, wonderful comic. Interesting that I watched a documentary on the Johnstown, Ill disaster of 1889 before the comic was posted. (A lake above a city was owned by the carnegies and others, dam was poorly constructed and in disrepair. It was ignored until a flood that destroyed the dam and killed over 2000 people.) Odd that it would be the construction workers screwing up, generally homeowners ignore advice or assume what they don't know won't hurt them.

[Zaku_III]

The question is how much Xykon knows (i.e. how much was mentioned/hinted at in that diary) about just exactly what he's attempting to unleash. He may simply be in way over his skull....


If experience with bad guys is any indication, he has no idea what is actually behind the gates, and...I can't be sure if that'd be a prediction...oh well.

[killingwithasmile]

Great comic giant, i hope that the crayon flashbacks continue for a while because i love the extra length it is great.

The best bit about this comic is that im pretty sure this is the comic with the most cracks in the 4th wall. "hold on i'm sure this was a great campaign for these charecters but..."

[Marller]

The paladin joke was great.
Abd i'm glad you posted it today. ;)

Btw. Soon is called Soon Kim in the first panel, so unless he remarried and changed his name he isn't Lord Shojo.

[Antina]

GREAT JOB GIANT!!! ;D

I liked best - besides the great jokes - the way of "new" character-design!
Drawing THIS time NOT influenzed by the little halfling-girl (being in love = making prettier, personal dislike = making more grim looking).

And the just between the line told great story (and personal developement) of our rescuers of the world (do we get a spin of series?) ;)

VERY VERY NICELY DONE!!!

And thank you very much for the also funny hint about when the new comic will be up.

All thumbs up from Bavaria!!!

[Zaku_III]

The paladin joke was great.
Abd i'm glad you posted it today. ;)

Btw. Soon is called Soon Kim in the first panel, so unless he remarried and changed his name he isn't Lord Shojo.

Spoilers for Harry Potter

Tom Riddle changed his name to Lord Voldemort.

Neither Lord Soon nor Lord Kim sound that good, so maybe he just made up a name, or had another 5 or 6 names. Who knows, given his connection to Miko.

[Cirin]

Neither Lord Soon nor Lord Kim sound that good, so maybe he just made up a name, or had another 5 or 6 names. Who knows, given his connection to Miko.Or it could be a regnal name. Much like Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger became Pope Benedict XVI in the real world, or how Prince Albert. Duke of York became King Edward VI of the United Kingdom in 1936. It's actually a pretty common tradition in the real world for monarchs to take a different name to rule under (and even with the pseudo-Japanese bent of Azure City, the Emperors of Japan also use this practice)

[Vampire_Boy]

But I wonder who guarded Kraagor's secret fortress, since she's dead. Dorukan is dead, too, now; and presumably Lirian was killed during the forest fire incident.

I think that's a too big assumption to make, we have no way of knowing that. In this kind of story, unless a character death is shown, I'll probably draw the opposite conclusion. I could very well be wrong, of course, but I expect Lirian to show up at some point in the future. We need some druids in the story. ;)

[morbiczer]

I haven't seen anyone comment on it yet, but now we know for sure that one of the gates is in Azure City.

One was in a forest (destroyed), one in the hills (destroyed), the other two seem to be somewhere in a desert and in a snowy region.

[Darius Midnite]

Good god that was a good strip...
Very neat Giant..
Heh i didn't get the paladin-hafling joke at first... :)

[Arakune]

YEY!!! death to all corrupt dwarf enginers!

[Lightman]

Funniest OOTS in a while!

[Aiani]

Woo hoo I loved this strip. The Holey Goodness and the corner cutting construction dwarves made me laugh. Also there was so much feeling in the first panel with Soon and his wife. Excellent job especially considering that it was done in crayon.

[Blaznak]

Huh... you'd think news of something on the scale of inner-dimensional rifts, etc. and various cults and villians protecting them would have spread far and wide over the years. Interesting...

Later, "Stickees"...

[Sebastian]

Speaking of Xykon - what do you think this suggests is his Great Big Evil Master Plan of Doom? It sounds like he's figured out some way to control the Snarl, or maybe merge with it somehow... Yeeesh. The power to kill gods in a heartbeat. That sounds like BBEG material to me...

Or maybe he have no idea of what mess exactly is putting himself in (and even that is classical BBEG material)

[Sebastian]

First, a little spelling error. Girard's "Actually, I'm pretty sure that's excatly..."

Where is the evidence that Soon is not Shojo? I didn't see it in this strip.

Shouldn't gods pay more attention to this whole affair, considering the deicidal nature of the beastie? I mean, you don't want Deus Ex in your adventure, but still...

1) the Snarl weaken the structure of the universe, this include grammatic and syntax, all the typos we see in those comics are meant to be there.

No, really.

2)he say his name is Soon Kim (first panel), unless he changed his name his name can't be Shoio

3)which gods? the ones that pass their time fighting each other and going around drunkly throwing around lighting bolts and storms? those gods?

[fwiffo]

1) the Snarl weaken the structure of the universe, this include grammatic and syntax, all the typos we see in those comics are meant to be there.

No, really.

Yeah, sure. And next thing you'll be saying is that the reason Haley garbles her speech now is because she is carrying love child of a Snarl that is destined to grow up to be...

Hey! It is not a prediction! It is too stupid a plotline to be a prediction.


2)he say his name is Soon Kim (first panel), unless he changed his name his name can't be Shojo

What's in a name? That which we call Lord Shojo
By any other name would... would... umm...

Need to take couple levels in Bard.


3)which gods? the ones that pass their time fighting each other and going around drunkly throwing around lighting bolts and storms? those gods?

Not the most responsible pantheons, true. But containing Snarl is big time problem for all of them. Even if they don't act like grown up deities most of the time, one would think this is one subject they could show some maturity for.

[DOOM2099]

Dwarves don't cut corners. They are infallible craftsmen, and you should all be ashamed for insinuating anything other than the highest levels of work ethic.

Although, a new pool table would be sweeeet! Dwarves love billiards after all.

[Alfryd]

The Dread Baron Pineapple. We meet at last.

On reflection, it seems we can disqualify the hypothesis than Soon is Miko's father. She ain't 70+.


Another part answers that, if the Snarl can destroy things on the most fundamental level, that implies it can - no, must - annihilate souls when it attacks...
I would like to see some confirmation of this. My instinct, however, is that Rich is deliberately shying away from resurrection mechanics for the sake of dramatic impetus. Because it really does diminish the value of heroic sacrifice, and so forth.

...but, thats just creating a being out of mana, that has the qualities of the person as you knew them, its not the true person...
Given that every atom in my body is completely replaced every 7 years or so, I won't nitpick if that's the method used to raise me.
If it walks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

He's not talking like Soon would while relating the story, unless he's spent a lot of effort emotionally distancing himself from the memories.
That is quite possible. Or it may be for dramatic effect.

Girls, women, and other female humanoid shaped things have round bottoms.
No, that's a reflection on costume. Miko wears a chain-mail underskirt, so she has a square end.

...unless he changed his name his name can't be Shojo...
So, he can't be called Shojo unless he is?

[JoseB]

I would like to see some confirmation of this. My instinct, however, is that Rich is deliberately shying away from resurrection mechanics for the sake of dramatic impetus. Because it really does diminish the value of heroic sacrifice, and so forth.


And so you shall! On page 2 of this thread...


Yes, sorry, it's implied in #274 that the Snarl devours souls when it kills you. No resurrection is possible.

JoseB

[LurkerInPlayground]

Dwarves don't cut corners. They are infallible craftsmen, and you should all be ashamed for insinuating anything other than the highest levels of work ethic.

Although, a new pool table would be sweeeet! Dwarves love billiards after all.

Hey don't stereotype! It causes both dwarves and humans to suffer under your negative categorizatoin!

Anyway, I think this comic sort of implies that the OotS is not completely at fault since nobody in their right mind would install a self-destruct mechanism on the thing they were supposed to protect. One might wonder if the OotS is at fault at all if the dwarves have been cutting corners to begin with.

[Tawkis]

I must admit I love this crayon chronicle. Although a real paladin would've taken the stoning himself....

Selfish Soon, letting the poor Dwarf get stoned.

[ref]

So, does that mean we get a Sunday update, or the first twice-in-a-day update ever? I think the Giant should get some sleep, so I guess it's Sunday. hehe...


No trip to the Outer Planes. No eternity with a beloved god (or followed cause, if you're into that sort of thing). No Raise Dead. No Resurrection...

No pass Go, No get 200 gold pieces. (sorry, I couldn't resist) :P

[Vampire_Boy]

No, that's a reflection on costume. Miko wears a chain-mail underskirt, so she has a square end.

Maybe it's that stick up her a**...

[Caledonian]

Serini Toorbuck seems to be an even more annoying character than Elan... and Roy, not being a Paladin, has more options open in dealing with him.

Just goes to show that there's always someone that has it worse off than you do.

[Hyrael]

well said about the gods. Im still trying to get away from the Discworld Gods, who are largely incapable of making a cup of coffee, but the concept taints my perceptions. Damn it, Gods shouldnt be able to exist without their beleivers! they dont create worlds and living things! they just turn up when people start beleiving in things.

Im also trying to get used to the idea that when it is claimed that a god wants something, it really is the god that said it, and not the high preist, or whatever. Im used to idiot preists running thngs completely independent of the gods, and putting words in theri mouthes, ect.


anyhoo, as for the sojo/soon debate:
but, as previously pointed out, Soon might have taken a new name when he became ruler. look back in the thread, someone explained it. Its actualy quite a common practice.

[SimonMoon5]

First, a little spelling error. Girard's "Actually, I'm pretty sure that's excatly...".

Nothing wrong with that. Excatly's a perfectly good word.

"Ex-" as in former.

"-Cat-" as in a feline.

"-Ly" changing this into an adverb.

Thus, Ex-Cat-Ly means that this will happen in a way that has something to do with formerly being a cat. That's how the dwarf's sacrifice will be forgotten. Thus, the illusionist-ranger obviously used to be a cat, and as such, he is going to forget the sacrifice made by the dwarf. Perhaps, years later, he is turned back into his former cat body. And that explains why Lord Shojo has a cat.

Oops, I hope those aren't spoilers. :)



Kraagor is definitly male. If you look close, you notice that his bottom is flat. Girls, women, and other female humanoid shaped things have round bottoms.


Except Miko. (She's a man, baby!)

[Tomada]

This thing kills gods in one round, not just a god, but multiple major deities in one round. It is a hole in reality itself, the very fabric of creation turned into incarnate destruction and chaos. In other words, what it destroys, is gone forever.

Some things are beyond the power of a Wish.

Most DM's I've known have treated Wishes as a kind of command or summons to compel a deity or other powerful entity (noble genie, demon lord, archangel, ect) to grant what you ask, which is why it's usually twisted (most beings strongly resent being commanded, and many beings who grant wishes are already of ill temper). In other words, if it's beyond the power of the gods, it's beyond the power of a Wish.

You couldn't use a Wish to turn yourself into a God (or if you could, you know it would come with such a heinous catch that you'd never be able to use it). Remember, in 3rd edition, it is possible for a Wish to just outright fail if it's asking for too much (or you might only get a partial fulfillment or a twisted one, but it can just fail if you go too far).

Using a Wish to create a high level adventurer who has all the memories, experiences, and abilities, essentially an exact copy, of a being who was utterly wiped from reality sounds like something that might be beyond that line. It's one of those "DM says you're gone utterly" kind of plot deaths.

If a simple 9th level spell could undo being killed by Snarl, I'd imagine the Gods of the East would have been brought back by the other gods by now.
[/color]

Can a Wish create a simulacrum without the person in question? I think it could, but it would be up to the DM... It WOULD NOT be the real thing... but it's as far as I can get

[Jibar]

Girard Draketooth
Easily one of the coolest characters I've ever seen.
Yay for sweet purple tatoos and duel swords!

[Solara]

Oh man, it's been awhile since I've laughed this hard...and then been sad five seconds later, only to laugh again at the next panel!

First there's the banter in entire second panel, and then the 'Holey Brotherhood', and just as I'm going 'Awww...' about Kraagen's death we get the lazy dwarven contractors! :D

Will there ever be a spin-off series about the adventures of the OotRs? I'd buy it!

Though, all the funny aside, it is pretty sobering to think that if a new patch isn't made available soon the gods' shoddy workmanship might result in them deciding to toss the entire planet in the recycle bin and replace it with World 3.0.

Also, now that I'm beginning to realize how serious this is, Soon had better have sent someone to fix the gate that was destroyed in the fight with Xykon, as well as the one lost in the forest fire. I certainly hope his only action wasn't to send exactly one (1) paladin after the OotS and completely ignore the real problem...

EDIT: And best of all, no waiting an entire weekend for Monday's strip! :D

[Sleffie]

well said about the gods. Im still trying to get away from the Discworld Gods, who are largely incapable of making a cup of coffee, but the concept taints my perceptions. Damn it, Gods shouldnt be able to exist without their beleivers! they dont create worlds and living things! they just turn up when people start beleiving in things.

Im also trying to get used to the idea that when it is claimed that a god wants something, it really is the god that said it, and not the high preist, or whatever. Im used to idiot preists running thngs completely independent of the gods, and putting words in theri mouthes, ect.

Sweet.. sweet Small Gods. How I love that book so.

It's always a little switch you have to click when dealing with deities in most fantasy settings, and then the incompetent rowdy Discworld Gods, who get trapped in the desert when they have no believers left, with still the faint memories of what it was like when they were believed in.

And Blind Io the top chief god, ofcourse. Who is a couple of thousand of Thunder Gods (a tribe here, a tribe there. It's amazing what you can do with a padded bra) just to stay in business.


But whilst the Discworld had the Creator, a man with a leather bag which contains all of the multiverse. The OotS evidently had the Gods at the Dawn of Time, and that's how it is! Easy to switcheroo to. *nod*

[Eva_of_Sirrion]

Were Illusionist-Ranger double-classings even possible in 2nd Ed?

I'm fair sure they're playing under 3E rules, as Serini talks about becoming a paladin next level, which indicates the level-by-level multiclassing of 3E (I say specifically 3E as things weren't converted to 3.5 until strip #1 of OotS).

[Amalthea]

Maybe it's a pun that Kraagor's death will be Soon-forgotten.

(Hey, is Kraagor male or female? I have a hard time telling with dwarves, and the writing in Serini's journal is so small it's difficult to make out. Does it say "Mean! Grr!" or "Meani Grrl" [meanie girl]?)
... He has a BEARD.

[El Jaspero, the Pirate King]

Yes, sorry, it's implied in #274 that the Snarl devours souls when it kills you. No resurrection is possible.


Given this, I think it's safe to say that Kraagor wasn't petrified: that's a statue of him. If he was turned to stone, the party could've just restored him. The Snarl killed him and consumed his soul .

[nightfire8199]

Sweet comic giant

[Reaver225]

I'm always slightly bugged by souls being 'destroyed' as such, by anything. Part of the definition of a 'soul' is to be indestructible.

[PhoeKun]

I'm always slightly bugged by souls being 'destroyed' as such, by anything. Part of the definition of a 'soul' is to be indestructible.

Really? I've never heard anything that would lead me to believe something like that. Numerous people have described hell (having visited in a dream or whatnot), and mentioned the devil eating souls.

Moreover, in D&D terms, the idea that the soul is indestructible is just plain scary. By that definition, all Outsiders are utterly invulnerable, since their souls are woven into their bodies. Which means even the tiniest Fire Elemental could whoop a 20th level party.

Think of it this way: The Snarl utterly destroys reality. If souls are real, then it destroys them.

[Albion]

Oh, those dwarven builders. ;D And all that.

[Amalthea]

I must admit I love this crayon chronicle. Although a real paladin would've taken the stoning himself....

Selfish Soon, letting the poor Dwarf get stoned.
Paladins don't do drugs.
...Seriously, how in the world do you expect a paladin to automatically negate the inherent RISK of entering into battle for the rest of his team? Such a position is so illogical that it's silly.

[theKOT]

Paladins don't do drugs.

Paladins also shouldn't let friends do drugs;)

Oh, and once again we see that the rifts have wind blowing out of them. It's probably just done for drama, though.

[Godhand]

"Oh, and once again we see that the rifts have wind blowing out of them. It's probably just done for drama, though."

...Or a burst in the fabric of reality caused a surge of wind, it could also be very windy in that prison, ya never know.

[Amalthea]

Paladins also shouldn't let friends do drugs;)

Touche.

However, since Kraagor was killed and not stoned, my non-humorous point stands. :)

[Adeptus]

I'm always slightly bugged by souls being 'destroyed' as such, by anything. Part of the definition of a 'soul' is to be indestructible.

Which definition is that? Everything isn't as [insert your religion] claims it to be.

[Sleffie]

... He has a BEARD.

That doesn't mean much. Dwarfs have beards, men and women alike.

"Female dwarfs are common, but are traditionally indistinguishable from males at all times. Dwarfs tend not to concern themselves much with this; the dwarfish language has a gender neutral pronoun, usually rendered as "he" when speaking human languages. Dwarfish courtship is an incredibly tactful affair, primarily concerned with finding out which gender the other dwarf is." ;)

[Eva_of_Sirrion]

... He has a BEARD.

You say that like it automatically makes Kraggor male. ;D ;)

[Eva_of_Sirrion]

That doesn't mean much. Dwarfs have beards, men and women alike.

"Female dwarfs are common, but are traditionally indistinguishable from males at all times. Dwarfs tend not to concern themselves much with this; the dwarfish language has a gender neutral pronoun, usually rendered as "he" when speaking human languages. Dwarfish courtship is an incredibly tactful affair, primarily concerned with finding out which gender the other dwarf is." ;)

Excellent quote m8! Where's that from?

[Caledonian]

... He has a BEARD. He (or she) is a dwarf. Dwarves can have beards, regardless of what gender they are.

[Zeekar]

I'm fair sure they're playing under 3E rules, as Serini talks about becoming a paladin next level, which indicates the level-by-level multiclassing of 3E (I say specifically 3E as things weren't converted to 3.5 until strip #1 of OotS).

But that's not consistent with Haley's father having been a First-Edition Thief (see strip #8: http://giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=8)

[Eva_of_Sirrion]

I believe the parallels betwixt the OotS and Soon's crew are deepening. I'm betting that Kraagor is the ambiguously-gendered one of Soon's crew.

[Amalthea]

That doesn't mean much. Dwarfs have beards, men and women alike.

"Female dwarfs are common, but are traditionally indistinguishable from males at all times. Dwarfs tend not to concern themselves much with this; the dwarfish language has a gender neutral pronoun, usually rendered as "he" when speaking human languages. Dwarfish courtship is an incredibly tactful affair, primarily concerned with finding out which gender the other dwarf is." ;)

What ARE you quoting? Hilgya didn't have a beard. (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=79)

[Eva_of_Sirrion]

But that's not consistent with Haley's father having been a First-Edition Thief (see strip #8: http://giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=8)

Yeah so? You've never heard of a group that played one campaign, finished it off, and started the next one 60 years later?

[Tyrmadris]

Sleffie:
Only 2nd Edition and earlier Dwarven females had beards. As of 3.0, if you check the PhB, it specifically states that they do not. In fact, I've seen numerous pictures in all the 3rd Edition books since then what appear to be incredibly short, chunky, masculinized Human females in pictures pretending to be Dwarves. I don't know what's up with Dwarf-envy, but it drives me crazy that so many Humans can't take pride in their own race. ;) Of course, the captions claim those are Dwarven females, but I still refuse to believe them. ;)

--- --- --- --- ---
As for the "Lord Shojo" debate, I suggest one find the definion of the word 'Shojo'. It's entirely possible that it is merely a title or rank (such as warlord, high priest, etc), and that anyone who fills that position becomes the "Lord Shojo". Alternatively, if it is his name, he could have simply changed it to through clever historians off the trail.
--- --- --- --- ---
I'd like to point out that, ignorant or not, Xykon is in a most unique position. Should he open a gate to the Snarl's prison, he has little to worry about. The soul of a Lich is stored in its Phylactery (Redcloak's Amulet, in this instance). The worst that can happen to Mr Bones is that the tangled clawlike appendage of the Snarl will tear through his chest, come out the other side, and end up either discorporating his body or cause him to look funny at the swiling, multicolored limb and go "Hmm.... I didn't expect that."

[PhoeKun]

But that's not consistent with Haley's father having been a First-Edition Thief (see strip #8: http://giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=8)

I'll not say it twice. (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1139070303 ;start=10#10)

[Sleffie]

I suppose you're most likely right, Tyrmadris. Hilgya didn't have a beard either, which weighs in favour of what you're saying.

Ofcourse there are always exceptions, as sometimes you have bearded ladies amongst humans too, so I can still cling onto the freak off-chance that Kraagor the Barbarian Dwarf is female, and just hasn't discovered shaving razors yet.

[Eva_of_Sirrion]

First thing I thought when I saw Hilgya: "Where's her gorram beard?" ;D

[Sleffie]

Amen, Dwarfs without beards just don't do it for me. ;)

If I was a dwarf I'd totally be insecure about the size of my beard, and consider hair extensions. There's probably a good reason why Kraagor had three braids in his beard.. :o

Such a shame he died, now that's a Dwarf you could party with. (check out the mad growling face when he's battling the Rift)

[SimonMoon5]

--- --- --- --- ---
As for the "Lord Shojo" debate, I suggest one find the definion of the word 'Shojo'.


Here ya go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shojo

Lord Shojo means Lord Girl. Or, more colloquially, Lord Anime/Manga-That-Appeals-Primarily-To-Young-Girls.

Of course, the Giant has stated that he didn't know what Shojo meant. But it still seems entirely reasonable to me that as Soon got older, he wanted everyone to call him a young girl.

[The Lady Auneredra]

I definitely see where Shojo could be Soon, but then, wouldn't Shojo be grouchy and have a stick up his ass? ...but then again, he could have retired from being a paladin and have the stick removed. ;D

And about Kraagor:
a) His (I'm guessing) hair isn't very long. Don't dwarven females usually have their hair long enough to be braided? His beard is braided, I would think that if he were a woman he'd grow out his hair and have that braided, too.
b) His name isn't feminine, even for a dwarf. Too me, the "gor" part says that he's a guy.

[idksocrates]

All dwarves tend to be very perfectionist towards the beards, often braiding and decorating with various materials to make them nice looking.

I have to say that Krugaar is probably male because Hilgya didn't have a beard, but since it is a 2nd edition team, and female dwares of 2nd edition had beards, that it could be a female. Metagame reasoning states that it's probably a guy because there are already 2 girls in the party (high girl parties are rare) but that reasoning can be defeated by gender-bending players.

It's very possible that Shojo isn't Soon, actually - Soon might have been part of the Sapphire guard in the past and is now somewhere else, guarding his gate.
Where was it stated that there definately was a gate in Azure city?

[Leveller]

There's just two thing I don't get;

How did the OotR find out about the snarl and the gods and the first world?
How did Lord Shojo find out about the OotR?

[Cirin]

Where was it stated that there definately was a gate in Azure city? Look at the comic #276, when they show the glimpse of the five locations of the five rifts. On the one in the right hand side, you can see the blue pagodas and buildings of Azure city below the rift.

[Ryltar_Swordsong]

Look at the comic #256, when they show the glimpse of the five locations of the five rifts. On the one in the right hand side, you can see the blue pagodas and buildings of Azure city below the rift.

(pssst it's #276)

Also, in #260, look at the Azure City skyline for comparison.

[PhoeKun]

There's just two thing I don't get;

How did the OotR find out about the snarl and the gods and the first world?
How did Lord Shojo find out about the OotR?

1) Up for speculation. Probably lots of spoiler-riffic stuff. Also probably because Soon saw the Snarl's claws first hand.
2) Soon is a Saphire Guard Paladin. No matter what his identity was in the past, Lord Shojo would know as the commander of those self-same forces.

[Cirin]

(pssst it's #276)

Also, in #260, look at the Azure City skyline for comparison.
Yeah, yeah. Typo corrected.

[ref]

what's this OotR you guys keep talking about?

[Renloth]

Order of the Rift maybe?

[Zink]

Regarding PhoeKun's flashback point:

This isn't necessarily really a flashback. The entire Rift plot is a campaign for our current PCs, which, as far as I know, was not planned at the beginning of the story and was only created far after strip #1. Meaning therefore, that the campaign, including the backstory and the characters driving it, were only created when the DM was already in 3.5, meaning that the characters would be created using 3.5 rules. Haley's dad is a different case, as it was not created by the DM. We know that the fact he was a thief is a part of Haley's backstory, and that's probably the only reason Haley had that information anyway. Him being 1st edition was just required for the joke "It runs in the family" to achieve maximum effect.

[PhoeKun]

Zink, you've taken my point and reconciled it with logic. Lesser men have tried in the past, and their heads exploded. Well done.

More to the point, what we are currently witnessing is a series of past events being physically told by an old man and backed up by pictures. The very definition of a flashback. What you've described is part of what makes the First Law of Flashbacks work. Its the core principle behind it all.

I suppose I could continue the lesson by describing the Second Law of Flashbacks: All stories are of finite length. Thus, any flashback will have story significance at some point during the main plot. Unless readers/viewers come to suspect as much, at which point one purely extraneous flashback will be added just to spite them.

Class dismissed.

[Athanatos]

There's just two thing I don't get;

How did the OotR find out about the snarl and the gods and the first world?
How did Lord Shojo find out about the OotR?


1) I'm assuming that once they started actively trying to seal the rifts, the gods said "Alright, fine. Here's the secret reason why you need to do this all, just don't tell, mmkay?"
2) Through Soon, probably. Or, he could be Soon, as has been theorized many a time.

[LurkerInPlayground]

Really? I've never heard anything that would lead me to believe something like that. Numerous people have described hell (having visited in a dream or whatnot), and mentioned the devil eating souls.

Moreover, in D&D terms, the idea that the soul is indestructible is just plain scary. By that definition, all Outsiders are utterly invulnerable, since their souls are woven into their bodies. Which means even the tiniest Fire Elemental could whoop a 20th level party.

Think of it this way: The Snarl utterly destroys reality. If souls are real, then it destroys them.

There is a difference between the idea of an immortal soul and just a soul. And usually in D&D souls are pretty immortal, unless you do something extremely unusual to destroy them. And is it so hard to understand that you can destroy the body and *not* the soul? Canonically, demons killed on the material plane simply get banished for "X" amount of time before they're allowed back onto the plane.

Also, whether or not female dwarves have beards or not is a matter of how your world is set up.

[Sebastian]

Part of the definition of a 'soul' is to be indestructible.
Part of the definition of a god is to be immortal, but that didn't stopped the Snarl.

[Sebastian]

But that's not consistent with Haley's father having been a First-Edition Thief (see strip #8: http://giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=8)
Obviously their game master is using house rules, it was very common in AD&D

[PhoeKun]

There is a difference between the idea of an immortal soul and just a soul. And usually in D&D souls are pretty immortal, unless you do something extremely unusual to destroy them. And is it so hard to understand that you can destroy the body and *not* the soul? Canonically, demons killed on the material plane simply get banished for "X" amount of time before they're allowed back onto the plane.

Also, whether or not female dwarves have beards or not is a matter of how your world is set up.

I admit D&D souls are hard to destroy. It is the possibility of an 'immortal soul' that I find scary. Because Outsiders don't have a distinction between their souls and their bodies (hence why most creatures with the Outsider type can only be brought back with True Ressurection). Actually, I guess that means their soul hasn't been completely destroyed, either, but it still doesn't seem like a big leap from 'unkillable soul' to 'unkillable Outsider' to me. Regardless, it ought to be well within the Snarl's abilities to entirely unmake a soul.

Also, demons are only banished after defeat if they were summoned to the Material Plane. Those who decide to physically make the trip themselves are just as killable as any native with an equivalent CR.

You are perfectly correct about Dwarves, of course.

[Sebastian]

What ARE you quoting? Hilgya didn't have a beard. (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=79)

She shaved it. :)

[Godhand]

Oh for the love of... Kraagor is a male dwarf, no self respecting female dwarf would use the beard ties in that way, it'd be one single one with a pink ribbon of course ;D.

By the way, Phoe Kun is completely right about those accursed outsiders, you gotta go to their plane to finish them for good (or evil). Thats why you can only kill a god (hah! good luck) on their primary plane.

[redmind0]

The world is coming together (or appart).

[Podkayne]

I love how the whole plot is coming together.
I don't think Soon is Lord Shojo, but I do want to know how Lord Shojo knows the whole story. I can't wait for the next comic. Does Lord Shojo know about an evil lich trying to open the gates, or, failing that, about Serini Toormuck's diary?

[Deuce]

The world is coming together (or appart).


Or a little of both at the same time.

[M4]

Good evening,

This is my first post on the forum after being a loyal fan from the beginning. I wish only to inform you that you've made a spelling error in the latest comic.

"I'm pretty sure that's excatly what will happen..."

Whereas I'm pretty sure that's exactly the kind of thing you want to avoid in continuing such a wonderful comic ;)

[nightfire8199]

welcome to the threads. and i didnt notice that

cool ;)

[M4]

Thank you kindly :)

[Hurlbut]

I don't think Soon is Lord Shojo,
A possibility, if they are not indeed same person, is that Lord Shojo is, in some way, related to Soon.

[Podkayne]

If Lord Shojo were related to Soon, it would make more sense than if he were Soon. It somehow seems wrong for a LG (at least, I hope he's LG) character to lie about his name (or did he change his name? It still seems wrong to withhold that information).

[Tawkis]

Paladins don't do drugs.
...Seriously, how in the world do you expect a paladin to automatically negate the inherent RISK of entering into battle for the rest of his team? Such a position is so illogical that it's silly.
I say "letting the Dwarf get stoned" and you take me seriously... :p
That being said it's my beef with these LG "acceptable loss" paladin's of (hopefully only) Azure city. Perhaps I'm just a touch of an idealist but I think that type of attitude is very unpaladinlike. I would say a paladin should endeavour to sacrifice themselves (knocking the Dawarven barbarian out of the way is tricky I will agree) over their allies.
It's not about attempting to remove risk it's about putting your friends head of you. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one" ; a great thing to say but if you recall, Spock didn't send someone else into the engine room in Kahn. He did it himself.
From my point of view the best example of a paladin in the Giants (or almost any) world is Roy Greenhilt. He's got the spirit of the class (and the letter for the most part) nailed.

[Krytha]

I thought the comic ended at the Holey Brotherhood when I checked it yesterday. I was delighted when I found out I had another page or so of OotS goodness to follow after that. hooray for the OotS and their surprise comicry (or my inept buffoonery)!

[Flash]

I'm thinking it's pretty obvious Kraagor is a he.

I'm also thinking the Snarl didn't off him... He obviously dies as a result of Soon (zealous paladin type) insisting the spell be cast while Kraagor is in the effect field (Right gamers? how many times have YOU been fried by some buddy's over-exuberant fireball?), which is why Draketooth is peeved at Soon later. I think this is a total friendly fire situation. Why he can't be raised? Only the giant knows...

Just my 2smallundervaluedcoins worth...

[theKOT]

I thought the comic ended at the Holey Brotherhood when I checked it yesterday. I was delighted when I found out I had another page or so of OotS goodness to follow after that. hooray for the OotS and their surprise comicry (or my inept buffoonery)!
You musta failed a spot check.
Yeah, I know: obvious and overdone. But I couldn't resist!
Anyway, for my closing statement: Lucky you!

[Duskrider_Moogle]

Rereading this yet again, it occurs to me that "Excuse me, have you seen any lost bears around here?" is a really, really funny line.

Also, last night I played in my first game of D&D since 2nd edition. I dropped in the middle of a campaign, and planar rifts were heavily involved. Thus OotS now has additional resonance for me. :)

[Tharr]

Yeah why cannot people be raised or recarinated in this strip really bugs the new readers.

The wizard you are familiar with.
Fun word play wonder if he did have a familiar.
Do the people know this wizard from before.
I cast detect plot device.

[pudgimelon]

I'm thinking it's pretty obvious Kraagor is a he.

I'm also thinking the Snarl didn't off him... He obviously dies as a result of Soon (zealous paladin type) insisting the spell be cast while Kraagor is in the effect field (Right gamers? how many times have YOU been fried by some buddy's over-exuberant fireball?), which is why Draketooth is peeved at Soon later. I think this is a total friendly fire situation. Why he can't be raised? Only the giant knows...

Just my 2smallundervaluedcoins worth...

I agree, it is totally a friendly-fire situation, but let's not be too harsh on the paladin.

First, he lost his wife to this thing, and he's human, so give the guy a break if he's a bit over-eager to defeat this thing. It's personal, and if you ask me, it's personal in a bit more noble way than Miko's personal beef with Belkar.

Second, they are battling a god-killing abomination for crying out loud. That's a lot of pressure to be under and nobody should be second-guessing Soon's leadership until they've been in a similar situation. In the heat of battle, things can go bad real quick. One lousy roll and suddenly that thing has slice-n-diced two party members. I don't think Soon is being an "acceptable loss" paladin in that case. I think his using his battle experience to judge that they've got maybe one or two rounds left before the Snarl turns the battle, so if they don't end it NOW, they all die.

Third, Soon and Kraagor probably had made a pact when Kraagor joined the party. Something like: "If you get a chance to beat this thing, and I'm in the way, don't hestitate. Don't try to save me, just do it". Maybe Kraagor has personal reasons to beat the Snarl just like Soon. If so, Soon would totally respect Kraagor's wish to "die an honorable death" defeating a foe that killed someone Kraagor loved too.

If that's the case, then Soon's decision to stone the Snarl while he and Kraagor are in the way is a totally LG thing to do. I don't see Kraagor going, "Hey, wait til I'm out of the way!" So if Kraagor isn't going to complain about getting stoned, neither should we.

Also, I think the stoning spell was necessary to seal the rift. Since Kraagor was so close, the dwarf got wrapped up in the bind too. So I think that's why they can raise Kraagor. If they do, it would unbind the rift and free the Snarl again.

Kraagor's statue probably IS the seal in that particular case.

[LurkerInPlayground]

I admit D&D souls are hard to destroy. It is the possibility of an 'immortal soul' that I find scary. Because Outsiders don't have a distinction between their souls and their bodies (hence why most creatures with the Outsider type can only be brought back with True Ressurection). Actually, I guess that means their soul hasn't been completely destroyed, either, but it still doesn't seem like a big leap from 'unkillable soul' to 'unkillable Outsider' to me. Regardless, it ought to be well within the Snarl's abilities to entirely unmake a soul.

Also, demons are only banished after defeat if they were summoned to the Material Plane. Those who decide to physically make the trip themselves are just as killable as any native with an equivalent CR.

You are perfectly correct about Dwarves, of course.

This is because mortal resurrection isn't supposed to work the same way for outsiders. You kill the evil Pit Fiend. Pit Fiend is banished for 999 years to his home plane. He *poofs* back into Hell (or was it the Abyss?) and he is really pissed. He's going to be thinking about how he's going to enjoy tormenting your descendants. His soul is linked to his home plane, and he's fine and dandy, if imprisoned. You only killed his body.

I don't honestly know what's supposed to happen to the Outsider's soul once you off them in their home plane, but I guess that's the mystery (unless it's revealed in Fiend Folio or something). Maybe they really are immortal, with reforming boides. Would fit though, since it only makes demons terrifying.

But then again, this is more about how you want to flavor your campaign. If demons just die after you kill them, then that's what happens.

And to be perfectly clear, I meant immortal soul also in the sense that you go on to your "eternal reward." It isn't life, but it sure is an afterlife. Basically, an immortal soul is supposed to be the indestructible component of your identity that persists after death.

Although in D&D they are only immortal until some evil horror-of-the-night sucks it out, or if the forces of chaos rends your soul into so much primal energy. Or maybe the apocalypse rolls around and your god's heaven starts disintegrating. You know, whatever.

[GAZ]

The wizard you are familiar with.
Fun word play wonder if he did have a familiar.
Do the people know this wizard from before.
I cast detect plot device.



They know him from before because, the wizard Dorukan owned to dungeon the first hundred odd strips of the comic were set in and employed Celia therein.

And it looks to me that he was just as negligent with his familar as Varsuvius is.

[Tharr]

If he owes Celia maybe he could be taken for court for the failure to pay a debt.
Does Xykon have a familiar.

[phlip]

If he owes Celia maybe he could be taken for court for the failure to pay a debt.

Might be a challenge, unless Speak with Dead is permissable as testimony...
(Xykon killed Dorukan - it says so in #196)

[Cirin]

Might be a challenge, unless Speak with Dead is permissable as testimony...
(Xykon killed Dorukan - it says so in #196)Speak With Dead has been used as testimony in the trial of the OotS, so apparently it's allowed under Azure City law.

[Vampire_Boy]

Rereading this yet again, it occurs to me that "Excuse me, have you seen any lost bears around here?" is a really, really funny line.

I always thought it was the druid standard greeting!

[Bakta]

Is it me or did the word byplay between the illusionist and the wizard happens in any given situation?.

I don't mean this illusionist and that wizard, but any ill and any wiz. There is always one with a warped wiev of the world, and one with a tree up the arse who would like nothing more than offer an olive "branch" to any new paladin around.

Those two lines were far too close to all gamin sessions I've been in not to raise a nostalgic chuckle.

[Adeptus]

Part of the definition of a god is to be immortal, but that didn't stopped the Snarl.

Immortal as in unaging parhaps, but stories of god's getting killed are just about as old as stories about god's themselves.

[Alfryd]

And so you shall [have confirmation of soul-eatng]! On page 2 of this thread...
Thank you.

Except Miko. (She's a man, baby!)
Step a little closer and repeat that. I'm somewhat hard of hearing.
*shunk-splortch*

Think of it this way: The Snarl utterly destroys reality. If souls are real, then it destroys them.
Then the threads of reality used in the world would no longer have been available for reweaving after the Deicide.

I'm betting that Kraagor is the ambiguously-gendered one of Soon's crew.
Ayup.

Selfish Soon, letting the poor Dwarf get stoned.
There may have been more at stake than either of their lives. Soon ran the same risk himself, well, better saving throws excepted.

I would say a paladin should endeavour to sacrifice themselves (knocking the Dawarven barbarian out of the way is tricky I will agree) over their allies.
What makes you think Soon didn't? We have no idea what actually happened.

This strip was good. But I yearn for further updates.

[Caledonian]

No, tearing apart the weave to return the threads to their original state IS ultimate destruction.

[Clertar]

It's very possible that Shojo isn't Soon, actually - Soon might have been part of the Sapphire guard in the past and is now somewhere else, guarding his gate.

Well, considering that the events in the flashback happened 66 years before the current OOTS campaign, wouldn't Soon be very old to guard a gate on his own? And if there was a rift in Azure City, it's also logical that Soon guarded this gate -and to me it all points to lord Shojo.

What is more, I think it's quite evident that the comic is made so that people do think they are the same person. Speaking of oneself in 3rd person and finally revealing it was actually you is a common recourse after all.

[Tawkis]

I agree, it is totally a friendly-fire situation, but let's not be too harsh on the paladin.

But it's FUN... that and I personally do hold paladin's to a higher standard than others. That's why they're paladins.



First, he lost his wife to this thing, and he's human, so give the guy a break if he's a bit over-eager to defeat this thing. No breaks EVER !!!!!!!



Second, they are battling a god-killing abomination for crying out loud. That's a lot of pressure to be under and nobody should be second-guessing Soon's leadership until they've been in a similar situation. I don't think Soon is being an "acceptable loss" paladin in that case. I think his using his battle experience to judge that they've got maybe one or two rounds left before the Snarl turns the battle, so if they don't end it NOW, they all die. Well we are of course assuming that Soon is the leader. A reasonable assumption I'll agree. Soon however does take the time to remove himself from the AOE since everyone's not clear. Lirian's line makes it clear tht Soon had to get clear. As leader he could've ordered Kragor to get clear, and taken the spell himself but he chose not too.


Third, Soon and Kraagor probably had made a pact when Kraagor joined the party. Something like: "If you get a chance to beat this thing, and I'm in the way, don't hestitate. Don't try to save me, just do it". Maybe Kraagor has personal reasons to beat the Snarl just like Soon. If so, Soon would totally respect Kraagor's wish to "die an honorable death" defeating a foe that killed someone Kraagor loved too. Possible, but unless it states in the comic that this happened (it doesn't) I'm going to say it didn't and that Soon made the call "as is".


If that's the case, then Soon's decision to stone the Snarl while he and Kraagor are in the way is a totally LG thing to do. I don't see Kraagor going, "Hey, wait til I'm out of the way!" So if Kraagor isn't going to complain about getting stoned, neither should we.

It doesn't make it LG at all if that's the case. It makes the descision neutral in alignment. Ordering a party member to die, or killing a party member is always one of two things. Either Evil (if done for pure conveinience) or Neutral if it just has to be done or becomes necessary. The only good way is if a member explicitly requests it or sacrifices him/herself.

[luilupino]

Now that I read that I'm not sure if Soon is Shojo, they could be different persons, maybe they are related somehow.

[ChaotikLawfull]

Shojo is old enough to be the son of Soon and his late wife.

[Hurlbut]

Shojo is old enough to be the son of Soon and his late wife.
Likely so. 60ishes years is a long life for a D&D human.

[Ashaman_Feeney]

Well we are of course assuming that Soon is the leader. A reasonable assumption I'll agree. Soon however does take the time to remove himself from the AOE since everyone's not clear. Lirian's line makes it clear tht Soon had to get clear. As leader he could've ordered Kragor to get clear, and taken the spell himself but he chose not too.
Possible, but unless it states in the comic that this happened (it doesn't) I'm going to say it didn't and that Soon made the call "as is".
In the comic Soon specifically does not leave the AoE. He just got lucky.

[Deuce]

. . .

Well we are of course assuming that Soon is the leader. A reasonable assumption I'll agree. Soon however does take the time to remove himself from the AOE since everyone's not clear. Lirian's line makes it clear tht Soon had to get clear. As leader he could've ordered Kragor to get clear, and taken the spell himself but he chose not too.

. . .



You are assuming that Kragor *would* break off, even if ordered. Remember, you are dealing with a Berserker here. Soon may have given the order to back off, and been ignored.

[The Lady Auneredra]

I just hope that Rich gets the new comic up before the Super Bowl! :o
...because unless he has TiVo, he's probably going to watch it... ;)

[nightfire8199]

mmmmm...super-bowl. cant wait for it!. But the super bowl is a half hour away. so traffic is REALLY REALLY REALLY BAD!!!

[Ilanin]

I have officially less than no sympathy. This is strictly speaking as a Steelers fan in the UK who doesn't own a television, you understand. The Superbowl is being shown (although it ends at gone 3am GMT) on free-to-air TV, but whether or not I'll actually have anywhere to watch it is less clear. Hmph.

wrt the comic, I'm fairly certain that Kraagor wouldn't have retreated even if told to, Soon knew this, and wasn't going to waste his energy on trying to make him.

[Reaver225]

Well we are of course assuming that Soon is the leader. A reasonable assumption I'll agree. Soon however does take the time to remove himself from the AOE since everyone's not clear. Lirian's line makes it clear tht Soon had to get clear. As leader he could've ordered Kragor to get clear, and taken the spell himself but he chose not too.]

Couldn't he have just rolled a good save? I'm only guessing, I don't play much DnD.

Also, I'm pretty sure it's a statue of him anyway, why else would there be a pedastal under him?


Is it usual to have horrific, god-killing monstrous abomination type creature being defeated by a group of adventurers in the Rifts campaign?

[notin_theface]

Lets not forget the mention of the reinforced ceiling in todays comic, and in comic 69

[Artector]

Just like to bring in a new idea about Kraagor's death in.

I think its entirely possible that Kraagor who was in melee combat with the Snarl's claw and was pulled in. When the spell was cast Kraagor was pushed in along with the claw. Thusly meaning his fate may have been left untold and may have been tortured by the Snarl until it randomly got bored.

But hey, tis up to the giant

[Grey Watcher]

Just like to bring in a new idea about Kraagor's death in.

I think its entirely possible that Kraagor who was in melee combat with the Snarl's claw and was pulled in. When the spell was cast Kraagor was pushed in along with the claw. Thusly meaning his fate may have been left untold and may have been tortured by the Snarl until it randomly got bored.

But hey, tis up to the giant

I was thinking much the same thing. Only I was thinking Kraagor was killed by the Snarl rather than simply trapped with it. That is, Kraagor, too, might have survived the spell, just as Soon did, but he didn't even get a chance, since he'd just fallen to the Snarl.

[Dagoth]

The way I see it, the Snarl is trapped in a totally different plane. Things in that plane wouldn't be the same as they are in the world we know - in one of the earlier comics, Shojo mentioned that it may have been possible that the gods were more vulnerable to the Snarl than mortals. And the plane where Zeus' family was killed was about the same as the one where the Snarl is currently trapped. So even if Mijung was completely obliterated, in the other plane, Kraagor might have been able to resist the Snarl. How long, I wonder...

[Grey Watcher]

A thought occurs to me.

I was sort of comparing and contrasting these fabled adventurers of old to the Order of the Stick. Serini Toormuck is obviously similiar to Elan, with the naive impulsiveness. Gerad and Dorukan spilt time with Roy-type lines, with the passive-aggressive sarcasm, though Gerad picks up shades of Belkar's bitterness. Kragoor's one line sounds a lot like something Durkon would say, but that gave me pause.

Kraagor is described in Serini's Diary with the words "Mean! Grrr!". But his one line is fairly diplomatic. I suppose it isn't inconsistent, since it is kind of shooting her down, but no more so than everyone else's comments, arguably less so. I guess I just expected Kraagor to be that stereotypical, raucous, at least somewhat bloodthirsty, Klingon-esque Dwarven Warrior.

[SpaceCoyoteVega]

omg
they've got Chinese takeout...
:D

edit: oops, wrong thread
it was in the last one
and probably already talked about

[Tharr]

The snarl must plan its revenge like the seahawks.

[Annalia]

I think he's dead as a result of the spell. I mean, Lirian talks about a sacrifice. Sounds to me like he decided to stay in place and hold the Snarl.

Also, I've reread comic 296 (where Xykon finds the diary) and something's bothering me. Xykon says Lirian's gate was destroyed in a forest fire (caused by Redcloak) but how the heck didn't the Saphire Guard notice that? And if they did, does that mean they couldn't stop Xykon? And if they knew, it lends some credency to Oots's story, no?

[Tawkis]

Poor Seahawks, just goes to show what being outcoached and undisciplined gets you.


Everyone has good points why Soon isn't the "bad guy" here. However, as I am thoroughly enjoying my narrow minded paladin bashing I refuse to relinquish any point that anyone else is right and I am wrong, despite any convincing arguements any of you have made or will make in the future.

*searches for my +4 keen (details) bash-o-stick*

[Umbral_Arcanist]

Everyone has good points why Soon isn't the "bad guy" here. However, as I am thoroughly enjoying my narrow minded paladin bashing I refuse to relinquish any point that anyone else is right and I am wrong, despite any convincing arguements any of you have made or will make in the future.

*searches for my +4 keen (details) bash-o-stick*

Was that ironic on purpose?



I agree that Kraager is dead, it makes sense that it is a statue the pedestal and the fact that the spell stone to flesh exists, oh and that the spell likely wouldn't turn someone to stone

[Tharr]

Who knows only time will show truth.
It would be shocking to find him.
Everyone knows it.

[Tawkis]

Was that ironic on purpose?

Perhaps, perhaps not. Generally I lack the wit to be purposefully ironic and just try to be a smartmouth. However since you asked:

Yes, yes it was on purpose.

[Zeekar]

Rapidly running out of "before Monday" here... guess I needn't have stayed up to catch the new strip... ah, well.

[Tharr]

I cast the detect irony.

[Godhand]

Hes pulled the post before midnight thing on us before, hes just adding to the suspense. Besides, hes already given us 4 comics last week so I really have no room to complain. Keep up the work Giant, your army is growing by the day.

[datasion]

He didn't say which Monday, though...

[Annalia]

He didn't say which Monday, though...

hehehe! ;D. A thought I find quite disturbing... A whole week without Oots! :o. How could I possibly survived!

By the way, I don't know if anyone noticed it or mentionned it before but we can actually see the crayon in the dwarven engineers yellow beards! Kinda funny (I don't mind at all, don't misunderstand this!).

[theKOT]

He didn't say which Monday, though...

Shhhh! He'll see this! Quick! edit it away before you doom us all!!!

[Tharr]

Maybe he got drunk from the bowl game show.

[monkofawesome]

Maybe he got drunk from the bowl game show.






I like your style.

[yuccadude]

I'll go with the obvious one here and say, "what gate are you guys talking about?"

[ElfLad]

Exactly what time zone does the Giant run on? Because I think it's Monday in NY even though it's Sunday here in Washington state.

And it could be Sunday in some time zone for a while after midnight here.

[Dugray]

-Sigh- Yet another missed deadline. Dang.

[ElfLad]

In my timezone, he's got an hour and a half left.

[Dugray]

In my timezone, he's got an hour and a half left.


Well in mine he's an hour and a half late!!

[ElfLad]

Haha, my timezone's better.

[camelman]

He still has about five hours before its Monday everywhere. ;D

[OffTheWall]

He still has about five hours before its Monday everywhere. ;D

After which it instantaneously becomes Tuesday somewhere. Poor Somewherians; they have to wait an extra day for the comic!

[The Doctor]

Some time systems actually also incldue the first six hours of the next day (0:00 - 5:59) as being the previous one. Television broadcasting used that system (I cannot begin to tell ypou the havoc that places to people who are ordered to make electronic program guides).
So, if you twist and toggle that abit, he'll have at least six more hours left.
Though I think it may be smarter to just go back to the page, cross out monday, and doodle tuesday, But I am a slacker, I can't even fix a chameleon circuit.

[Euphemism]

The Giant is never late. He posts the comic precisely when he means to.

[yuccadude]

coup de grace! take that evil(assumedly) goblins!

[Tharr]

It came up.