Has anyone tried a Sentinel Rogue?

[MThurston]

The concept is cool.

A two weapon rogue in combat takes it to get another sneak attack roll. With Scout you could make sure you are alway touching a bad guy that can attack two people.

I also believe but will look up that the scout (skirmisher) move doesn't provoke an Opportunity Attack.

[nickl_2000]

Sentinel on a rogue is great as long as you can handle being close in combat.

However, it doesn't work very well with the Scout Skirmisher ability (since both Sentinel and Skirmisher require the use of a reaction).

[heavyfuel]

I feel like the Rogue is just too squishy to make good use of Sentinel. Usually, if you pick Sentinel, it's because you want characters to attack you, but the Rogue is the character who doesn't really want to be atacked.

I suppose it can work better if you dip for Whip proficiency so you have reach, but I can't see it being particularly good.

[Naanomi]

Yes, works great... our swashbuckling 1/2 (high) elf makes great use of it, can really help to get off-turn backstabs; and between subclass taunt, booming blade, and sentinel (and rogues being surprisingly durable in this edition) he works as a very reasonable offtank

[MThurston]

Yes, works great... our swashbuckling 1/2 (high) elf makes great use of it, can really help to get off-turn backstabs; and between subclass taunt, booming blade, and sentinel (and rogues being surprisingly durable in this edition) he works as a very reasonable offtank
Swashbuckling rogue is a nice subclass. Not needed for this feat but nice non the less.

Yes the reaction wouldn't work well with scout.

[KOLE]

Really solid idea, though as noted earlier Scout conflicts with your reaction. Swashbuckler might work better to make sure you get your sneak attack in melee with mobile enemies who may not engaged with allies. Rogues are surprisingly sturdy, especially since you have plenty of spare points to spend on CON. You could easily start with a 16 con and be a competent rogue, maybe just lose a little bit of “Jack of all trades” skill monkey. If you really want to get resilient, a one level dip in fighter gets you medium armor, a shield (at the cost of TWF), and second wind to help keep you on your feet, plus whip prof which could help you kite, cut, and move.

Honestly, a one level fighter dip, Strength built Rogue using heavy armor would hit hard and stay Rogueish. Sounds like an interesting character build.

[stoutstien]

I feel like the Rogue is just too squishy to make good use of Sentinel. Usually, if you pick Sentinel, it's because you want characters to attack you, but the Rogue is the character who doesn't really want to be atacked.

I suppose it can work better if you dip for Whip proficiency so you have reach, but I can't see it being particularly good.

Rogues actually make one of the better classes for sentinel to work on. They are easy to grab better armor proficiency for and have a stack of defensive features that make them hearty for a class that does look soft at first glance.

Works best when paired with one of the typical tanky options that provide interference for targeting the rogue and the rogue inturn provides the opponents a strick rebuke for attacking the tank. Cavalier, armorer, AG barbarian, and about half the paladins work really well.

Sentinel is oddly only an okay feat for those who want to be hit and good feat for those who don't want to be hit but hang out next to those who do.

[Gignere]

Rogues are actually fairly beefy in this edition and arcane trickster can actually tank as good as any of the tougher classes with access to shield spell and defensive buffs like mirror image/blur/haste. Also mirror image can combo with sentinel to force the offturn sneak attack trigger.

[lordshadowisle]

Sentinel reaction for extra sneak attack totally works, but as many have pointed out it's a tradeoff between offense and survivability. Notably, Uncanny Dodge as well as Shield/Absorb Elements (for AT) are defensive options that also compete for your reaction.

Actually, Uncanny Dodge seems to work well with Sentinel. If the enemy hits your buddy, your reaction goes to Sentinel. If the enemy goes for you, you Uncanny Dodge (since the Sentinel won't trigger) for half damage. Conceivably, you can achieve 100% utilization of A,BA,R every turn.

[Ir0ns0ul]

I don’t know if it was mentioned, and it’s somehow DM dependent, but Sentinel has an amazing synergy with Mirror Image for a level 7+ Arcane Trickster.

[8wGremlin]

Yes, I tend to get it all the time for my rogue.
tag team next to my protector, and we can get really annoying.

[leugren]

By default, a Rogue is far too squishy to end their turn next to an opponent in order to trigger the Sentinel feat. If you want to get the most out of this feat, you need to build around it by investing in a high Constitution and picking up proficiency with Medium Armor and Shields, either through the Moderately Armored feat or by dipping a different class which grants these proficiencies. Otherwise, expect to be taking a lot of dirt naps!

[MThurston]

Rogues are actually fairly beefy in this edition and arcane trickster can actually tank as good as any of the tougher classes with access to shield spell and defensive buffs like mirror image/blur/haste. Also mirror image can combo with sentinel to force the offturn sneak attack trigger.

If you mean attacking the rogue but hitting an image ...it wouldn't work. You are still targeting the rogue.


I have read the rule for both and see that Crawford said yes. As a DM I would over rule that. The target was the rogue. The spell misdirected it to a copy of the rogue.

I will go further.

Mirror image. When you are targeted.

Sentinel. When someone doesn't targer you.

The attacker had to target you and can not target an image.

[Gignere]

If you mean attacking the rogue but hitting an image ...it wouldn't work. You are still targeting the rogue.

Read mirror image it actually changes the target to the image.

[MThurston]

Read mirror image it actually changes the target to the image.

You are targeting the rogue and can never target the image.

[Gignere]

You are targeting the rogue and can never target the image.

Read the spell it specifically saids the target of the attack is changed to the image so RAW it works.

[Lunali]

It could be argued that the images also have sentinel, which would prevent it from triggering.

[stoutstien]

By default, a Rogue is far too squishy to end their turn next to an opponent in order to trigger the Sentinel feat. If you want to get the most out of this feat, you need to build around it by investing in a high Constitution and picking up proficiency with Medium Armor and Shields, either through the Moderately Armored feat or by dipping a different class which grants these proficiencies. Otherwise, expect to be taking a lot of dirt naps!

The basic concept is to combine it with another class that has better ally protection built which works well because it reduces reaction conflicts. Something as simple as a rogue with sentinel with a battlesmith+ SD acting as a flanking buddy can leave enemies with no good targets which is the goal.

[verbatim]

I feel like the Rogue is just too squishy to make good use of Sentinel. Usually, if you pick Sentinel, it's because you want characters to attack you, but the Rogue is the character who doesn't really want to be atacked.

I suppose it can work better if you dip for Whip proficiency so you have reach, but I can't see it being particularly good.

Or use the new variant race rules from Tasha's to trade an Elf's shortsword proficiency out for a Whip while keeping their Longbow Proficiency.

[Gignere]

It could be argued that the images also have sentinel, which would prevent it from triggering.

Hey if a DM is going to argue that, great it means if the enemy attacks another player I get 4 sentinel attacks and since the images have sentinel I would argue they all have sneak attacks too, so makes the feat even better.

[MThurston]

Read the spell it specifically saids the target of the attack is changed to the image so RAW it works.

Changed but you targeted the rogue. Sentinal says targeted and you can't targeted an image.

[Gignere]

Changed but you targeted the rogue. Sentinal says targeted and you can't targeted an image.

Yes normally you can’t target an image but the spell makes you target the image, specific beats general so it will trigger sentinel. I’m just saying that’s RAW if you don’t like it rule 0 it away but as written it works.

[stoutstien]

Changed but you targeted the rogue. Sentinal says targeted and you can't targeted an image.

Sentinel is based on the results of an action(make an attack) not the intent(targeting the rogue with attack).

The wording of mirror image is in a way that the attacker is unintentionally targeting the image but they are definitely making an attack on the image which fills the requirements for the feat.

It's both RAW and RAI but doesn't mean you have to adhere to that. It also doesn't take away the fact it's a strong option for ATs with this feat at most tables.

[MThurston]

Sentinel is based on the results of an action(make an attack) not the intent(targeting the rogue with attack).

The wording of mirror image is in a way that the attacker is unintentionally targeting the image but they are definitely making an attack on the image which fills the requirements for the feat.

It's both RAW and RAI but doesn't mean you have to adhere to that. It also doesn't take away the fact it's a strong option for ATs with this feat at most tables.

When you make an attack you must choose a target. You can not choose an image.

It doesn't matter that Mirror Image changes the target and mirror image says when you are targeted.

You are the target.

It was very nice of Crawford to say this works but in the writing it clearly is contradictory.

Why do you ask? Because the choice was you. They didn't choose an image, the spell did.

[Bloodcloud]

Swashbuckler/Battlemaster is the way to go i'd say. Battlemaster 5 gets you Riposte and extra attack. Makes you a bit tankier too. Then Rogue all the way, max out on sneak attack on action and reaction.

[micahaphone]

One of my favorite someday in the future characters is a mountain dwarf inquisitive rogue, thematically based off the bounty hunter of Darkest Dungeon. No stealth, great at tracking, with crossbow expert you can throw a net then shoot into the target as a BA, later on Sentinel would be great combo'd with insightful fighting. I'll admit two feats is a lot for going Str rogue and still needing 14 dex for armor.

[NecessaryWeevil]

Hey if a DM is going to argue that, great it means if the enemy attacks another player I get 4 sentinel attacks and since the images have sentinel I would argue they all have sneak attacks too, so makes the feat even better.

If that's the only way you're breaking the game with this ruling, you have more restraint than some players.

[Keravath]

When you make an attack you must choose a target. You can not choose an image.

It doesn't matter that Mirror Image changes the target and mirror image says when you are targeted.

You are the target.

It was very nice of Crawford to say this works but in the writing it clearly is contradictory.

Why do you ask? Because the choice was you. They didn't choose an image, the spell did.


"SENTINEL
You have mastered techniques to take advantage of every drop in any enemy's guard, gaining the following benefits:
• When you hit a creature with an opportunity attack, the creature's speed becomes 0 for the rest of the turn.
• Creatures provoke opportunity attacks from you even if they take the Disengage action before leaving your reach.
• When a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you (and that target doesn't have this feat), you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature."

"MIRROR IMAGE
2nd-level illusion
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 minute
Three illusory duplicates of yourself appear in your space. Until the spell ends, the duplicates move with you and mimic your actions, shifting position so it's impossible to track which image is real. You can use your action to dismiss the illusory duplicates. Each time a creature targets you with an attack during the spell's duration, roll a d20 to determine whether the attack instead targets one of your duplicates. If you have three duplicates, you must roll a 6 or higher to change the attack's target to a duplicate. With two duplicates, you must roll an 8 or higher. With one duplicate, you must roll an 11 or higher.
A duplicate's AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier. If an attack hits a duplicate, the duplicate is destroyed. A duplicate can be destroyed only by an attack that hits it. It ignores all other damage and effects. The spell ends when all three duplicates are destroyed.
A creature is unaffected by this spell if it can't see, if it relies on senses other than sight, such as blindsight, or if it can perceive illusions as false, as with truesight."

The writing is clearly NOT contradictory.

Sentinel is activated when a creature makes an attack within 5' at a target other than you.

When mirror image is present the creature starts out making an attack against you and so does not trigger sentinel.

However, if they make the roll for mirror image the spell specifically states "the attack instead targets one of your duplicates".

The duplicates are NOT you. They are duplicates. You do not take damage if one is hit. Sentinel does not require that the creature make an attack against a target that is another creature. It does not say anything except it makes an attack against a target that is not you. Mirror Image specifically changes the target of the attack to one of the duplicates. This is NOT an attack against you. It is an attack against a target within 5' that is not you and is sufficient to trigger sentinel.

There is no contradiction. By RAW it works fine. Any DM can change it if they want but Mirror Image changes the target to a duplicate. The duplicates are NOT the character. Sentinel only requires an attack within 5' against a target other than you - so sentinel is triggered by an attack that selects one of the mirror images.

We can argue about lots of things but the RAW in this case is pretty clear.

[heavyfuel]

Rogues actually make one of the better classes for sentinel to work on. They are easy to grab better armor proficiency for and have a stack of defensive features that make them hearty for a class that does look soft at first glance.

Works best when paired with one of the typical tanky options that provide interference for targeting the rogue and the rogue inturn provides the opponents a strick rebuke for attacking the tank. Cavalier, armorer, AG barbarian, and about half the paladins work really well.

Sentinel is oddly only an okay feat for those who want to be hit and good feat for those who don't want to be hit but hang out next to those who do.

The thing with getting "better" armor is that Rogues need a Finesse weapon to sneak attack (stupid rule if you ask me) so you want a high Dex score because you're not going to get as much benefit from Str (no bonuses to stealth, thieves' tools, initiative, Dex saves, etc).

So "better armor proficiency" really means "shield proficiency", which works nicely with the Whip proficiency you probably got from the same dip.

Still, at the end of the day I think Sentinel works better when combo-ed with PAM and a reliable source of Advantage (or other boost to attack rolls) to make sure you hit the enemy and drop their speed to 0.

I don't think Sentinel Rogue is bad, but I do think it's not nearly as good as Sentinel Barbarian or Sentinel Battle Master.

[Naanomi]

I don't think Sentinel Rogue is bad, but I do think it's not nearly as good as Sentinel Barbarian or Sentinel Battle Master.
they are using the feat for different purposes, tanks are using it for parts 1+2 to control the battlefield (and will occasionally get a bit of extra damage from part 3); rogues are using parts 2+3 to potentially double their impressive damage output (and will occasionally do some basic battlefield control with part 1)

[heavyfuel]

they are using the feat for different purposes, tanks are using it for parts 1+2 to control the battlefield (and will occasionally get a bit of extra damage from part 3); rogues are using parts 2+3 to potentially double their impressive damage output (and will occasionally do some basic battlefield control with part 1)

Sure. But still, how often do you see enemies using the Disengage action? I've seen it happen quite often, but everytime it's when they are vastly outnumbered and make a last-ditch attempt of surviving. At this point in the combat, an increase in DPR isn't particularly important.

As for the OA from attacking somebody else. That's part of my point. If the enemy is even slightly intelligent, they might as well attack the Rogue over whoever else is also in melee with them. Because of Bounded Accuracy, both characters likely pose a similar threat level and have similar defenses, so why not attack the Rogue?

Again. Not saying it's terrible, but I do think the ASI/free feat would be better spent elsewhere.

[Naanomi]

As for the OA from attacking somebody else. That's part of my point. If the enemy is even slightly intelligent, they might as well attack the Rogue over whoever else is also in melee with them. Because of Bounded Accuracy, both characters likely pose a similar threat level and have similar defenses, so why not attack the Rogue?
Most enemies don't know what feats I have, so one OA in crowded melee is a pretty reasonable expectations (especially if you have to leverage your greater maneuverability to go protect casters in the backrank while the main tanks hold up the front lines)

[Gignere]

Sure. But still, how often do you see enemies using the Disengage action? I've seen it happen quite often, but everytime it's when they are vastly outnumbered and make a last-ditch attempt of surviving. At this point in the combat, an increase in DPR isn't particularly important.

As for the OA from attacking somebody else. That's part of my point. If the enemy is even slightly intelligent, they might as well attack the Rogue over whoever else is also in melee with them. Because of Bounded Accuracy, both characters likely pose a similar threat level and have similar defenses, so why not attack the Rogue?

Again. Not saying it's terrible, but I do think the ASI/free feat would be better spent elsewhere.

I think we all agree it depends on party composition to a certain extent. Like all range party than yeah don’t get sentinel. Or if a barbarian/fighter/Paladin picked it up you can skip it too.

However, in the right party composition it can be devastating on a rogue, like any party with a Druid with conjure animals. You are basically one of 9 options to get hit and unless the DM metagames like crazy you are bound to proc sentinel a few times in every combat that counts. If the enemy tries to beeline the Druid perfect sentinel can keep it from moving.

Actually any party with good minionmancy and one other melee sentinel rogue would do real good.

[Stangler]

It really depends on the way combat is going in your party. Party composition and dm style is really important to determine effectiveness. That said I think you can compare it to the dual weapon fighting style which is worth 3 to 5 damage a round before accuracy. So a rogue at level 8 would want to be triggering the attack about once every 4 to 5 rounds. At higher levels the value goes up and it would need to be triggered less to provide value. There is also the cost of the reaction to consider which also varies by situation.

[MThurston]

"SENTINEL
You have mastered techniques to take advantage of every drop in any enemy's guard, gaining the following benefits:
• When you hit a creature with an opportunity attack, the creature's speed becomes 0 for the rest of the turn.
• Creatures provoke opportunity attacks from you even if they take the Disengage action before leaving your reach.
• When a creature within 5 feet of you makes an attack against a target other than you (and that target doesn't have this feat), you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against the attacking creature."

"MIRROR IMAGE
2nd-level illusion
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Self
Components: V, S
Duration: 1 minute
Three illusory duplicates of yourself appear in your space. Until the spell ends, the duplicates move with you and mimic your actions, shifting position so it's impossible to track which image is real. You can use your action to dismiss the illusory duplicates. Each time a creature targets you with an attack during the spell's duration, roll a d20 to determine whether the attack instead targets one of your duplicates. If you have three duplicates, you must roll a 6 or higher to change the attack's target to a duplicate. With two duplicates, you must roll an 8 or higher. With one duplicate, you must roll an 11 or higher.
A duplicate's AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier. If an attack hits a duplicate, the duplicate is destroyed. A duplicate can be destroyed only by an attack that hits it. It ignores all other damage and effects. The spell ends when all three duplicates are destroyed.
A creature is unaffected by this spell if it can't see, if it relies on senses other than sight, such as blindsight, or if it can perceive illusions as false, as with truesight."

The writing is clearly NOT contradictory.

Sentinel is activated when a creature makes an attack within 5' at a target other than you.

When mirror image is present the creature starts out making an attack against you and so does not trigger sentinel.

However, if they make the roll for mirror image the spell specifically states "the attack instead targets one of your duplicates".

The duplicates are NOT you. They are duplicates. You do not take damage if one is hit. Sentinel does not require that the creature make an attack against a target that is another creature. It does not say anything except it makes an attack against a target that is not you. Mirror Image specifically changes the target of the attack to one of the duplicates. This is NOT an attack against you. It is an attack against a target within 5' that is not you and is sufficient to trigger sentinel.

There is no contradiction. By RAW it works fine. Any DM can change it if they want but Mirror Image changes the target to a duplicate. The duplicates are NOT the character. Sentinel only requires an attack within 5' against a target other than you - so sentinel is triggered by an attack that selects one of the mirror images.

We can argue about lots of things but the RAW in this case is pretty clear.

It is outrageously badly written for these to work together.

I target you.
The spell targets an image.
Sentinel says they have to target you or you get to attack.

They did target you. Your spell misdirected it.

[Frogreaver]

It is outrageously badly written for these to work together.

I target you.
The spell targets an image.
Sentinel says they have to target you or you get to attack.

They did target you. Your spell misdirected it.

Actually it says "makes an attack against a target other than you".

And the attack rules say: If there's ever any question whether something you're doing counts as an attack, the rule is simple: if you're making an attack roll, you're making an attack.

Seems pretty clear the enemy made an attack against a target other than the sentinel rogue - regardless of how well intentioned.

That said, I think it's a terrible rule and would rule otherwise along with many other DM's. And since what DM's rule matters more than RAW then I submit that it's best to ask your DM if this trick works in their games.