What is a high level monk like?

[Rfkannen]

In my ideal game a high level monk would be a character like one punch man, yojiro hanmam or jin taejin, the embodiment of bodily perfection, able to destroy mountains in a single kick. However that would be baaaaiscally impossible to balance lol.

So what IS a high level monk like? What fictional character best fits them? How do they feel in combat? How do they generally do? What is the monk's role at that level?

[MagneticKitty]

Battle field control (stuns) and mobility (reaching hard to reach enemies). They're not really meant to be top damage like your examples. They're good at stripping off legendary saves with "save or suck" things like stun and quivering palm and they're pretty good at hit and run.

[Walmcoli]

Yes - hit and run. In my OotA campaign we have a shadow monk who has boots of speed, a ring of free action and the mobile feat. He is impossible to pin down and rarely gets attacked. Combined with a monk’s immunity to poison, shadow step, slow fall, and ability to run up walls he is unstoppable in that setting.

[stoutstien]

In my ideal game a high level monk would be a character like one punch man, yojiro hanmam or jin taejin, the embodiment of bodily perfection, able to destroy mountains in a single kick. However that would be baaaaiscally impossible to balance lol.

So what IS a high level monk like? What fictional character best fits them? How do they feel in combat? How do they generally do? What is the monk's role at that level?

How high is high level? The monk is unique in that it's role shifts as it levels. A lv 17 monk is a different animal than it is one level later with empty body.

[Jon talks a lot]

IMO, it's pretty boring at any level, but that's a biased opinion, and what you find fun might be very different from what I do.

[Rfkannen]

How high is high level? The monk is unique in that it's role shifts as it levels. A lv 17 monk is a different animal than it is one level later with empty body.

Oh interesting! What is the difference? I am intrigued of the concept of their role shifting over time.


IMO, it's pretty boring at any level, but that's a biased opinion, and what you find fun might be very different from what I do.

What do you find boring about the monk, and what do you find fun about other characters?

[ezekielraiden]

For me, a high-level monk is around 75% Jackie Chan, 25% Monkey King. For the former, being able to get up to all sorts of hilarious AND awesome hijinks (just without needing to do 500 takes to get it right, obviously). For the latter, doing supernatural stuff, but always with the tiniest nod toward groundedness or at least some kind of "form" or "technique" that theoretically anyone could learn with enough discipline.

The high-level monk shouldn't be held to only what a non-wire-assisted Jackie Chan can do, but it also shouldn't be capable of directly replicating what Sun Wukong can do. The former would be unnaturally weak in a world of wish-casting wizards, clerics with divine intervention, and paladins who can literally transform into avatars of justice. The latter would be too strong because it would combine basically all the things I just mentioned, except all the time. (Which could work in some games, but it wouldn't work in D&D.)

It's also worth noting that monks shouldn't be stereotyped into only one personality. Some are stone-faced stoics, sure, but some take to heart the lesson of The Vinegar Tasters and thus always have a serene smile. Some are cranky old dudes, some are cranky young dudes, some are wise-cracking mentors, some are hotshot young masters...it all depends. And you can go in other directions as well; Charles Atlas superpowers are actually a lot easier to implement with a monk than most other classes due to the mystical-yet-grounded nature of Ki. (Barbarian is the other main choice; the two complement each other.) Despite claims to the contrary, the monk as a class is fairly versatile--no less versatile than paladin or barbarian, I'd argue.

[MaxWilson]

How high is high level? The monk is unique in that it's role shifts as it levels. A lv 17 monk is a different animal than it is one level later with empty body.

Yeah, Empty Body makes you incredibly tanky.

[Jon talks a lot]

What do you find boring about the monk, and what do you find fun about other characters?

Generally, I don't like ki, it's too close to other systems in-game.

Additionally, the monk is put in an odd position where it has the linear power growth that non-casters have, but the squishyness and other downsides that most casters have. It just makes it fairly weak and confusing to the point I don't enjoy playing them.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I DMed a Shadow Monk through Out of the Abyss, so 15th level or so. The player was experienced at RPGs, but a rookie to 5e, so he was doing things fairly effectively, but possibly not 'optimized'.
The character was effectively our Rogue as well since we didn't have one. I remember he tended to Dodge a lot; you definitely need a strategy to hit and not get hit, which I think made for a challenging experience. There were fights, particularly with terrain, where he outperformed the Paladin due to an ability to get where he needed, and others where it was the other way around. Saves were awesome once he had proficiency in everything and a Paladin aura to hang around in.
I think it was a good experience, but did require some attention from me to make sure to make sure there were opportunities to shine.

[Keravath]

The main role of higher level monks is battle field control. Damage comes second but with the large number of attacks they get they can still do decent damage (comparable to other classes as long as you leave out feats like Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master).

The monk can quickly expend ki forcing creatures to make several stun saving throws in one turn. Even creatures with a high constitution will fail sometimes and not every creature has proficiency in con saves and a high constitution. Dragons, liches, fiends and many others can all be stunned which prevents the creature from taking an action until the end of the monk's next turn, they automatically fail strength and dex saving throws and everyone has advantage to hit them. For high level creatures this will force them to use legendary saving throws - once those are gone the creatures are much more vulnerable to party spellcasters as well as the monk if they manage to land another stun.

After that, each type of monk has a different niche - open hand can knock creatures prone or push them away using their flurry of blows. Shadow monks can use ki to cast spells and have a darkness/dim light based bonus action 60' teleport making them particularly mobile and able to get to the rear lines of opponents and directly engage spellcasters.

At level 14, monks pick up proficiency in all saving throws making them more resistant to magic. This is important in 5e since it is difficult to acquire additional saving throw proficiencies.

At high levels, since they don't use magical shields or armor, they have more difficulty increasing their AC. Bracers of defence/ring or cloak of protection are some of the few ways for a monk to increase their AC.

Anyway, when a monk can land a stun it prevents that enemy from acting and makes that enemy an ideal target for the rest of the party thus amplifying the party effectiveness.

[HPisBS]

It's always bugged me how the Monk's "Martial Arts" doesn't actually feel like martial arts at all. How is it that a Fighter can trip and disarm people with "maneuvers," but "martial arts" is just punching harder and more often?

Martial Arts should give you some special way to trip (or "throw") people, disarm people, and eventually intercept attacks. Sure, Shove prone and Disarm are already things anyone can (try to) do, but Battle Master gets Maneuvers to do it. Martial Arts should let a Monk be the best at it. Or at least equal to a Battle Master.

Something like (edited):
Martial Arts Techniques (Enhances Martial Arts):
At level 2, you learn two of the following Martial Arts Techniques, which you can use in place of any of your normal melee attacks. You can use only one technique per attack. You learn the other two Techniques when you reach level 7 in this class.
Your Martial Arts save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Dexterity modifier.

- Impairing Strike: You make a light attack to impair the target’s movements or aim. If you hit, you deal damage equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier and impose disadvantage on the next attack roll or Dexterity check the target makes before the end of its next turn.

- Unbalancing Strike: If you hit with this attack roll, the target takes damage equal to your Strength or Dexterity modifier, and the next Strength or Dexterity saving throw or ability check it makes before the end of its next turn is made with disadvantage.

- Disarming Technique: You force a creature that is no more than one size larger than you to make a Strength saving throw against your Martial Arts DC. If the creature fails, you force it to drop an item of your choice that it’s holding and deal damage equal to your Dexterity modifier.
A creature has advantage on this save if it is a size larger than you.
(RAW Disarm action is an attack roll against the target’s athletics / acrobatics check.)

- Throw: You force a creature that is no more than one size larger than you to make a Dexterity saving throw against your Martial Arts DC. If the creature fails, it falls prone and takes bludgeoning damage equal to your Dexterity modifier.
A creature has advantage on this save if it is a size larger than you.
(RAW Shove action replaces an attack with opposed athletics checks.)

(RAW Shove auto-succeeds when the target is incapacitated [as in stunned], but Disarm’s opposed check is unaffected. By contrast, stunned targets auto-fail Str & Dex saves.)


Since this thread is focused specifically on higher level monks, here's some defensive Techniques I think they should get at mid to high levels, since reliably blocking and dodging hits should be a staple of high-level martial artists:

Level 11
Reflexive Techniques:

- Deflect Blow: Whenever a creature within melee range makes a melee attack against you, you may use your reaction to attempt to deflect the blow. To do so, roll your Martial Arts die and subtract the result from the enemy’s attack roll.
You can choose to use this Technique after the creature makes its roll, but before the DM determines whether the attack succeeds or fails.

- Intercepting Fist: Whenever a creature within melee range makes a melee attack against you, you may use your reaction to attempt to counter-attack first. To do so, make an unarmed attack roll. If the result is higher than both the target's attack roll and AC, then your attack hits and the target's attack is lost. Otherwise, you miss, and the creature's attack is not lost.
You can choose to use this Technique after the creature makes its roll, but before the DM determines whether the attack roll succeeds or fails.

These two ^ are stronger than Dodge in that the 1st is fairly reliable and the 2nd basically gives you another attack, and neither have a high opportunity cost, action economy -wise. Yet they're also weaker than Dodge in that they only protect you from a single hit. So idk if they should cost ki, be limited to proficiency times / rest, or what. Which level they'd come online at may be a balancing factor. Lvl 11 is when Monks' damage starts falling behind, so I think this is fitting enough.

Regardless, those are some things I think Monks should get at some point to strengthen their so-called "martial arts," and make it actually feel like martial arts.


Edit:
It may be worth pointing out that the first techniques impose saves, rather than opposed checks, and that they're written to be used in place of any melee attack, rather than being limited to when "using the Attack action" like the standard shove is.



Edit 2: Added more stuff.

And I kinda feel like there should be free and ki-costing versions of the reactions. Like make Intercepting Fist cost 1 ki, then add:
Counter-Attack: When a creature misses you with a melee attack, you can make a melee attack against it with your reaction. You may substitute this attack with a Martial Arts Technique as usual.
Guard: Spend 1 ki point as a reaction to use Deflect Blow against all of a creature's melee attacks against you for that turn.

OR
Deflect Blows and Counter-Attack could go on lvl 11, then they could get upgraded to Guard and Intercepting Fist (no ki cost) as a capstone buff...

[Snails]

Generally, I don't like ki, it's too close to other systems in-game.

Additionally, the monk is put in an odd position where it has the linear power growth that non-casters have, but the squishyness and other downsides that most casters have. It just makes it fairly weak and confusing to the point I don't enjoy playing them.

I see it similarly. The monk is dependent on a limited resource like a spellcaster (Ki), yet that Ki scales up only slowly in potency (much less so than any spellcaster), and it is not even very flexible in what it does.

Looks like a class that is so very easy to play poorly. You are only impressive when you burn Ki, probably multiple Ki in a single round. But a monk without Ki to spend suh-ucks in a way that I would never complain about a barbarian who is not raging or a fighter battlemaster who is out of supremacy dice.

[HPisBS]

I see it similarly. The monk is dependent on a limited resource like a spellcaster (Ki), yet that Ki scales up only slowly in potency (much less so than any spellcaster), and it is not even very flexible in what it does.

Looks like a class that is so very easy to play poorly. You are only impressive when you burn Ki, probably multiple Ki in a single round. But a monk without Ki to spend suh-ucks in a way that I would never complain about a barbarian who is not raging or a fighter battlemaster who is out of supremacy dice.

I'll count this as +1 vote for giving Monks defensive Techniques (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24893312&postcount=12) that don't cost ki. lol

[Witty Username]

I liked casting fly on myself, soaring into the air, and trying to kill an ancient dragon with my bear hands. Say what you will of the way of the four elements but it is exceedingly extra. I think dragon ball(before Z or Super) is about right for what I want from a monk.

[Waazraath]

A shadow monk maybe like Zeratul, from StarCraft? Monks in general like Mortal Kombat characters, Liu Kang before defeating Shang Tsung?

[elyktsorb]

I played a high level monk multiclass (Land Druid/Open Hand Monk) I found myself doing a lot with even the little amount of ki I had, usually saving it for when I wanted to deal a lot of damage or needed to keep my distance.

Druid was a good mix due to the Monk's mobility, allowing me to keep up concentration spells while keeping myself from being a main target by moving into positions where I was less likely to be hit.

[mistajames]

Generally, they have below average AC (but are usually OK defensively due to great mobility and strong saves), poor damage (few relevant attack feats, few relevant magic items, limited or no access to common damage boosters), and poor battlefield control (Stunning Strike can apply multiple times/round, but targets Constitution, which most things are proficient in at these levels, and Legendary Resists are also common). They have a lot of movement speed and so can get where they want to be, but they aren't really much of a threat once they get there.

They have excellent saves though, and are often quite hard to kill. There is little incentive for NPCs to target them over other party members, though. We played a high-level campaign with a monk in the party... very much useless compared to other martials (who at least can do lots of damage) and full casters.

I wouldn't choose to play one in a high level campaign.

[Snails]

I'll count this as +1 vote for giving Monks defensive Techniques (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24893312&postcount=12) that don't cost ki. lol

Yes, please put me down as supporting that. I like the idea of tying these abilities to Reaction. I like the idea of tactics baked into the base class that are useful and say "Monk!!!" without paying through the nose (i.e. like the Barbarian gets Reckless without being tied to Rages per day)

There are some options for monks that are interesting, but everything under the sun costs Ki -- the monk is just nickeled and dimed all day long. At face value, you are doing pretty well if spending 1 point of Ki proves as useful as a 2nd level spell like Hold Person or Blindness. Count up your Ki and compare to the real spellcasters, and you can see the playing field is tilted against the monk at the outset. For tactically savvy players, there are ways to use Ki to bend the Action Economy in your favor, but that typically involves burning through multiple Ki in a single round.

In this context, I see Way of the Four Elements: Sweeping Cinder Strike, and I want to cry. 2 Ki for a measly 1st level spell? 3 Ki to upcast to 4d6 fire damage in a small area? To be blunt, spending 1 Ki as an Action to do 4d6 fire damage in a little cone is no better than "okay".

[Rfkannen]

Yes, please put me down as supporting that. I like the idea of tying these abilities to Reaction. I like the idea of tactics baked into the base class that are useful and say "Monk!!!" without paying through the nose (i.e. like the Barbarian gets Reckless without being tied to Rages per day)

There are some options for monks that are interesting, but everything under the sun costs Ki -- the monk is just nickeled and dimed all day long. At face value, you are doing pretty well if spending 1 point of Ki proves as useful as a 2nd level spell like Hold Person or Blindness. Count up your Ki and compare to the real spellcasters, and you can see the playing field is tilted against the monk at the outset. For tactically savvy players, there are ways to use Ki to bend the Action Economy in your favor, but that typically involves burning through multiple Ki in a single round.

In this context, I see Way of the Four Elements: Sweeping Cinder Strike, and I want to cry. 2 Ki for a measly 1st level spell? 3 Ki to upcast to 4d6 fire damage in a small area? To be blunt, spending 1 Ki as an Action to do 4d6 fire damage in a little cone is no better than "okay".

Yeah, high ki costs are why I am really liking the look of way of mercy, lettings hand of healing be tied to your flurry (which you were already going to do) was really smart, and after level 11 your ki costs go WAY down.

[MaxWilson]

Generally, they have below average AC (but are usually OK defensively due to great mobility and strong saves), poor damage (few relevant attack feats, few relevant magic items, limited or no access to common damage boosters), and poor battlefield control (Stunning Strike can apply multiple times/round, but targets Constitution, which most things are proficient in at these levels, and Legendary Resists are also common).

When people say things like this I always wonder what kinds of encounters their DMs construct at high level. Not saying it's not true, just saying it's not inevitable, and there are plenty of high-level monster fights that monks are highly effective in.

How about a lich, a nalfeshnee, and a couple of air elementals? (Deadly x2 for a 20th level party.) A DC 19 monk has a 40% chance per hit of stunning the Lich (+10 Con), a 35% chance per hit of stunning the nalfeshnee (+11), and an 80% chance per hit of stunning an air elemental (+2). With up to five attacks per round (e.g. Flurry + Opportunist for a Shadow Monk), a monk has excellent odds of stunning the lich on any given round (will stun the lich 1.13 times on average without advantage on attacks, 1.69 times per round if it's already prone or stunned or in some other way giving the monk advantage) even if the lich Shields instead of Counterspelling. Or it could nullify both air elementals if the lich isn't in range. Even the Nalfeshnee, while not the best target, is certainly worth stunning and will get stunned 1.4 times per round on average. (74% chance of stunning the Nalfeshnee each round, even if the Monk doesn't have advantage, or Bless, etc.).

The monk is definitely pulling his weight in that fight even though the monsters have truesight.

What about a pair of death knights (Deadly for 20th level)? A DC 19 monk has a 65% chance of stunning a Death Knight with each hit. With Empty Body he can have advantage for an 84% chance to hit, times 65% chance per hit, equals 54% chance of attack of stunning the Death Knight. (1-0.54)^5 ~= 0.02, so there's only 2% chance for the Death Knight to avoid stunning. There's a pretty good chance the monk can stun both Death Knights every round for as long as his ki holds up.

3 Beholders is also a Deadly fight for level 20 PCs, and they're even more vulnerable to Stunning Strike than Death Knights: +4 to Con saves, AC 18.

Honestly the problem IMO with high-level monks is exactly the opposite: they have trouble with swarms of lower-CR monsters (if they're not Elemonks). A dozen Wraiths (Deadly for 4 level 20 PCs) will be a harder fight for four monks than 3 Beholders.

One of these days I'd like to run an all-monk party...

[HPisBS]

Yeah, high ki costs are why I am really liking the look of way of mercy, lettings hand of healing be tied to your flurry (which you were already going to do) was really smart, and after level 11 your ki costs go WAY down.

Yeah, all Monk subclasses need at least something to do that's worthwhile, but doesn't cost ki.
Astral Self
Mercy
Open Hand / Shadow
Kensei / Long Death
Drunken Master
Sun Soul
4 Elements


I think dragon ball(before Z or Super) is about right for what I want from a monk.

Yeah, I like the idea of making after-images and simple ki blasts. Except for kamehamehas that can flatten mountains or destroy the moon, I'd say that had a pretty good power level for what a lvl 20 Monk should be.

To me, Ultra Instinct -like defenses are what I think should be central to strong Monks. Evasion, Diamond Soul, and Empty Body all do their part, but I've always wanted some martial feeling defenses.


Yes, please put me down as supporting that. I like the idea of tying these abilities to Reaction. I like the idea of tactics baked into the base class that are useful and say "Monk!!!" without paying through the nose (i.e. like the Barbarian gets Reckless without being tied to Rages per day)

Yay! :D


Edit:

One of these days I'd like to run an all-monk party...

Shadow for stealth, Mercy for healing, Astral Self for dpr, and... I guess 4E / Sun Soul for blasting, just so you'd have some way to deal with hordes.

[MaxWilson]

Yeah, all Monk subclasses need at least something to do that's worthwhile, but doesn't cost ki.

I would say that all Monk characters need something interesting to do without spending ki, but it doesn't have to come from their subclass. One key to having a good time with an Elemonk, in my pre-Tasha's experience, is to pick up a feat like Prodigy (Athletics) so that you can grapple/prone vs. small groups of enemies without spending ki, and therefore have plenty of ki left when it comes time to Stunning Strike a big scary enemy or Fireball a huge group of enemies. Similarly, Kensei monks can be fun with Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert.

Without spending chargen resources you can also use DMG Disarm, throw nets, or use magic items (e.g. a Shadow Monk who is lucky enough to find a Wand of Web can attune it, because he's a spellcaster).

[HPisBS]

I would say that all Monk characters need something interesting to do without spending ki, but it doesn't have to come from their subclass. One key to having a good time with an Elemonk, in my pre-Tasha's experience, is to pick up a feat like Prodigy (Athletics) so that you can grapple/prone vs. small groups of enemies without spending ki, and therefore have plenty of ki left when it comes time to Stunning Strike a big scary enemy or Fireball a huge group of enemies. Similarly, Kensei monks can be fun with Sharpshooter and Crossbow Expert.

Without spending chargen resources you can also use DMG Disarm, throw nets, or use magic items (e.g. a Shadow Monk who is lucky enough to find a Wand of Web can attune it, because he's a spellcaster).

So a Monk can do, without /rest resources, what literally any character can do without such resources. (Just not very well in the case of shoving prone, as they "should" dump Str and have little room for feats). What a high bar that meets. Huge selling point, there.

The supposed martial artist class ought to actually be good at knocking people down and stuff. Not have to go rely on feats (which already doesn't jive well with their MADness) just to be passable.


(e.g. a Shadow Monk who is lucky enough to find a Wand of Web can attune it, because he's a spellcaster).

Is he, though? Doesn't "spellcaster" mean... the spellcasting feature? Or is the ability to cast a single racial spell enough to meet that requirement?

[MaxWilson]

So a Monk can do what literally any character can do (just not very well in the case of shoving prone, as they "should" dump Str and have little room for feats). What a high bar they meet.

Nitpick: Monks are unusually good at DMG Disarm due to large number of attacks, and they get more benefit than usual out of grappling because unlike a Fighter they don't lose any AC or offensive output while grappling. (Also, Stunning Strike synergizes with grappling/shoving prone because a stunned target autofails grapple/shove contests, per errata.)

That's a nitpick though because my main point was the one you ignored: it's necessary for the character to have good ki-free default actions, not the class. So the question becomes, "which Monk are you talking about?"


Is he, though? Doesn't "spellcaster" mean... the spellcasting feature? Or is the ability to cast a single racial spell enough to meet that requirement?

AFB but IIRC the DMG says the ability to cast spells is enough. It doesn't have to be Pact Magic or Spellcasting specifically--could be a racial spell, Shadow Monk's Shadow Magic, whatever.

[stoutstien]

When people say things like this I always wonder what kinds of encounters their DMs construct at high level. Not saying it's not true, just saying it's not inevitable, and there are plenty of high-level monster fights that monks are highly effective in.

How about a lich, a nalfeshnee, and a couple of air elementals? (Deadly x2 for a 20th level party.) A DC 19 monk has a 40% chance per hit of stunning the Lich (+10 Con), a 35% chance per hit of stunning the nalfeshnee (+11), and an 80% chance per hit of stunning an air elemental (+2). With up to five attacks per round (e.g. Flurry + Opportunist for a Shadow Monk), a monk has excellent odds of stunning the lich on any given round (will stun the lich 1.13 times on average without advantage on attacks, 1.69 times per round if it's already prone or stunned or in some other way giving the monk advantage) even if the lich Shields instead of Counterspelling. Or it could nullify both air elementals if the lich isn't in range. Even the Nalfeshnee, while not the best target, is certainly worth stunning and will get stunned 1.4 times per round on average. (74% chance of stunning the Nalfeshnee each round, even if the Monk doesn't have advantage, or Bless, etc.).

The monk is definitely pulling his weight in that fight even though the monsters have truesight.

What about a pair of death knights (Deadly for 20th level)? A DC 19 monk has a 65% chance of stunning a Death Knight with each hit. With Empty Body he can have advantage for an 84% chance to hit, times 65% chance per hit, equals 54% chance of attack of stunning the Death Knight. (1-0.54)^5 ~= 0.2, so there's only 2% chance for the Death Knight to avoid stunning. There's a pretty good chance the monk can stun both Death Knights every round for as long as his ki holds up.

3 Beholders is also a Deadly fight for level 20 PCs, and they're even more vulnerable to Stunning Strike than Death Knights: +4 to Con saves, AC 18.

Honestly the problem IMO with high-level monks is exactly the opposite: they have trouble with swarms of lower-CR monsters (if they're not Elemonks). A dozen Wraiths (Deadly for 4 level 20 PCs) will be a harder fight for four monks than 3 Beholders.

One of these days I'd like to run an all-monk party...

All monk party of water walking pirates.

[HPisBS]

Nitpick: Monks are unusually good at DMG Disarm due to large number of attacks, and they get more benefit than usual out of grappling because unlike a Fighter they don't lose any AC or offensive output while grappling. (Also, Stunning Strike synergizes with grappling/shoving prone because a stunned target autofails grapple/shove contests, per errata.)

Good point on the Disarm.

But it seems you're mistaken about the grappling and shove. Being stunned only means auto-failing Str & Dex saves; grapple and shove are contested checks. For these often-forgotten attack substitutions, stunning an enemy only helps you to disarm them, and only because you'd have advantage on your attack. (But they'd still make their check as normal.)

I know, it makes tons of sense, but that's how it's written.

____
Edit: Now I see you said "per errata." I guess what I'm reading must not have incorporated it.
Edit 2: No, it seems I just overlooked the line about auto-success if the target's incapacitated.

This honestly just reinforces my frustration with Monks. Contested athletics checks don't exactly scream "standard Monk," so it's extremely easy to overlook, even with that errata. It's also annoying how those actions are written to only work with the Attack action, rather than with any melee attack, which means a Monk's bonus action attacks don't count.


... it's necessary for the character to have good ki-free default actions, not the class. So the question becomes, "which Monk are you talking about?"

Especially when a class's subclasses tend to transform the way you play as much as a Monk's does, you tend to want to actually use your subclass.

OH gets to add save-based "shoves" to their FoB for free, and weak as they may be, their lvl 6 and 11 features don't cost ki, either. Similar thing for Mercy. Shadow gets to teleport / go invisible for free in dim light or darkness. Long Death gets some free thp and a free 1-round fear effect. Astral and Even Sun Soul gets a little something to do without burning extra ki. 4E, though? Everything costs ki (save for the prestidigitation-like Elemental Attunement).

[MaxWilson]

Especially when a class's subclasses tend to transform the way you play as much as a Monk's does, you tend to want to actually use your subclass.

OH gets to add save-based "shoves" to their FoB for free, and weak as they may be, their lvl 6 and 11 features don't cost ki, either. Similar thing for Mercy. Shadow gets to teleport / go invisible for free in dim light or darkness. Long Death gets some free thp and a free 1-round fear effect. Astral and Even Sun Soul gets a little something to do without burning extra ki. 4E, though? Everything costs ki (save for the prestidigitation-like Elemental Attunement).

You don't have to use your subclass every round though to have fun with it. Does a Samurai use Fighting Spirit every round? Does a Battlemaster spend superiority dice every round? Does a Diviner use Portent every round? And yet they matter.

IME as long as you have good ki-free options to choose from, you have lots of ki to play around with when you DO want to spend ki on Fireball or Stunning Strike or whatever. Elemonk winds up using ki less frequently than a Shadow Monk or Long Death Monk but getting more bang for the buck when they do (especially with Patient Defense and Evasion--Elemonk can act as their own stalking horse to draw a bunch of enemies and then Fireball their own position). IME. But this brings us back to encounter construction and wondering how other DMs build their adventures... Elemonk would be relatively lame if PCs never fought more than one monster at a time, but relatively OP if they never fought less than twenty.

[minute]

It's always bugged me how the Monk's "Martial Arts" doesn't actually feel like martial arts at all. How is it that a Fighter can trip and disarm people with "maneuvers," but "martial arts" is just punching harder and more often?

Martial Arts should give you some special way to trip (or "throw") people, disarm people, and eventually intercept attacks. Sure, Shove prone and Disarm are already things anyone can (try to) do, but Battle Master gets Maneuvers to do it. Martial Arts should let a Monk be the best at it. Or at least equal to a Battle Master.

Something like
Martial Arts Techniques (Enhances Martial Arts):
When you make a melee attack against a creature that's no more than one size larger than you, you may forego the attack and damage rolls to attempt a Martial Arts Technique instead. Your Martial Arts save DC = 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Dexterity modifier.
A creature has advantage on this save if it is a size larger than you.
- Disarm: If the target fails a Strength Saving Throw against your Martial Arts DC, you force it to drop an item of your choice that it’s holding.
- Throw: If the target fails a Dexterity Saving Throw against your Martial Arts DC, the creature falls prone and takes 1 point of bludgeoning damage.

Since this thread is focused specifically on higher level monks, here's some defensive Techniques I think they should get at mid to high levels, since reliably blocking and dodging hits should be a staple of high-level martial artists:

- Deflect Blow: Whenever a creature within melee range makes a melee attack against you, you may use your reaction to attempt to deflect the blow. To do so, roll your Martial Arts die and subtract the result from the enemy’s attack roll.
You can choose to use this feature after the creature makes its roll, but before the DM determines whether the attack roll succeeds or fails.

- Intercepting Fist: Whenever a creature within melee range makes a melee attack against you, you may use your reaction to attempt to counter-attack first. To do so, make an unarmed attack roll. If the result is higher than both the target's attack roll, and AC, then your attack hits and the target's attack is lost. Otherwise, you miss, and the creature's attack is not lost.
You can choose to use this feature after the creature makes its roll, but before the DM determines whether the attack roll succeeds or fails.

These two ^ are stronger than Dodge in that the 1st is fairly reliable and the 2nd basically gives you another attack, and neither have a high opportunity cost, action economy -wise. Yet also weaker than Dodge in that they only protect you from a single hit. So idk if they should cost ki, be limited to proficiency times / rest, or what. Which level they'd come online at may be a balancing factor somehow.

Regardless, those are some things I think Monks should get at some point to strengthen their so-called "martial arts," and make it actually feel like martial arts.

I didn't even think about this but I completely agree. I think the Open Hand monk somewhat does this with their level 3 ability, but I agree that all monks should have some more options to really capitalize on that martial arts feel. Deflect Missiles is is very situational but effective when it comes up, especially if you can convince your DM to be somewhat lenient with what are considered "missiles". Other than that, and the things you already mentioned (Dodge and Dash), there's not much that showcases the martial ability of the monks

[HPisBS]

You don't have to use your subclass every round though to have fun with it. Does a Samurai use Fighting Spirit every round? Does a Battlemaster spend superiority drive every round? Does a Diviner use Portent every round?

IME as long as you have good ki-free options to choose from, you have lots of ki to play around with when you DO want to spend ki on Fireba or Stunning Strike or whatever.

That's not what I'm saying. Even OH won't be using OH Techniques every round, nor will Shadow be teleporting every round, nor will Long Death get/do its free stuff every round.

My view is that subclasses need something they can do regularly. 4E is particularly bad about every option costing ki, and most options either only lasting that one round, or being too expensive, or both.

But, complaints about particular subclasses aside, the Monk as a whole could do with some TLC (as could other martial classes, as plenty of threads have discussed). I'm kinda partial to those martial arts techniques I drafted. As far as shove, etc go: sure, they're a thing you can do. But they use Str: Athletics and Monks aren't really designed for that. To me, at least, it feels like they need options that're tailor-made for their design.

... And it just really, really irritates me that tripping/sweeping/throwing isn't a part of the Monk's "martial arts" lol


... all monks should have some more options to really capitalize on that martial arts feel
-snip-

Exactly.

[Unoriginal]

At level 14, naked, alone, without racial or subclass powers, and *without* spending any ki point, a Monk can:

- have more AC than a knight in plate armor

- drink a barrel of any poison without being affected. Same with being exposed to any disease.

- kill a Ghost or an Allip in two turns.

- run 110ft in a turn, including on water or on a sheer vertical surface.

- nullify the average damage of such a 200ft fall (or more than half the *maximum* damage of such a fall).

- punch (or headbut, or chew) through a solide adamantine door in two turns (as a conservative average).

- have at minimum 50% chances of succeeding any save with a DC of 14 (if using the standard stat array or point but).

- deflect and be 100% unarmed by a ballista bolt fired at them (assuming the bolt's damage is average, the Monk wouldn't even have to roll) or a rock thrown by an Hill Giant (assuming average rolls on both side).

- understand and be understood by any sapient being with a language

- endure and survive the breath of an Ancient Blue Dragon, even if the breath did max damage.


That's at lvl 14. Without spending ki. And naked.


Monks are awesome.




... And it just really, really irritates me that tripping/sweeping/throwing isn't a part of the Monk's "martial arts" lol

I agree the Monk should have more wrestling options, but what you're talking about is part of the Open Hand Monk's martial arts.

[Snails]

When people say things like this I always wonder what kinds of encounters their DMs construct at high level. Not saying it's not true, just saying it's not inevitable, and there are plenty of high-level monster fights that monks are highly effective in.

Well made points. Yes, it is not inevitable. It comes down to whether a monk has a big pile of key of Ki to burn through to beat that tough encounter. Perhaps it is not difficult for a high level monk to hoard 8-10 Ki for those big moments. I concede that I lack the experience to offer a strong opinion on that.

What I do know is this is not a problem most PCs have to really think hard about. A high level cleric can achieve similar results to what you describe by simply upcasting Banishment and targeting two nasties at what is likely to be a weak save. That is one measly high level spell, and there are many more where that comes from, at these high levels.

[BoutsofInsanity]

I've gotten a monk up to about 15th level.

The monk was... Oppressive. It was a constant, buzzing threat throughout the game.

The entire fight was the monk attempting to isolate targets, disrupt formations, save party members from attacks. Constantly running between the front and back lines applying conditions and status effects to enemies.

The monk was a disruptive force, picking away at targets over the course of the game removing the skirmisher scouts from play. Or rushing down the mages.

They have mobility, good saves, and strong disruption options that strip away defenses.

However, straight combat they always lost. Trying to hammer and tongs with any of the straight combat classes was a no go.

[Unoriginal]

However, straight combat they always lost. Trying to hammer and tongs with any of the straight combat classes was a no go.

Would you mind explaining what you mean by "straight combat", please?

[MaxWilson]

Well made points. Yes, it is not inevitable. It comes down to whether a monk has a big pile of key of Ki to burn through to beat that tough encounter. Perhaps it is not difficult for a high level monk to hoard 8-10 Ki for those big moments. I concede that I lack the experience to offer a strong opinion on that.

What I do know is this is not a problem most PCs have to really think hard about. A high level cleric can achieve similar results to what you describe by simply upcasting Banishment and targeting two nasties at what is likely to be a weak save. That is one measly high level spell, and there are many more where that comes from, at these high levels.

By "most PCs" you seem to imply "most primary spellcasters," because a Rogue, Ranger, Fighter, Barbarian, or even Paladin cannot upcast Banishment as casually as a monk can Stunning Strike - - and if course the cleric may have better things to concentrate on, like Silence, whereas Stunning Strike doesn't take concentration. The Cleric also had to worry about the Beholders' Antimagic Field, the Nalfeshnee's Magic Resistance. When Banishment is unsuccessful it does nothing, whereas if the Monk hits the lich and fails to stun it, he still does damage. He also burns through the lich's Legendary Resistance at a higher rate than the Cleric does. He's not subject to Counterspell. If he Stuns the lich, the rest of the party can kill it with advantage, instead of having to fight it anyway after Banishment wears off.

Considering all those downsides, I don't think it's fair to call Banishment comparable to Stunning Strike. It's worse in seven different ways by my count. (Better in one way: usable at range.)

Am I arguing that monks can compete with high-level spellcasters? Not really. I agree with those who say that warriors including monks are basically linear in power scaling, whereas spellcasters have the potential to be superlinear by abusing the most powerful, long-lasting spells. It's always painful to contemplate the idea of including a monk in the party instead of a druid because you get more bang from the druid, at least on paper. But my experience in play is also that monks are surprisingly good in non - obvious situations if you know how to use them, and competitive with spellcasters who aren't abusing spells like Polymorph, Conjure XYZ and Simulacrum. They also happen to synergize well with spellcasters who are using those abusively-strong spells. E.g. if you're a Diviner who wants to Wish (Planar Binding) on Sul Khatesh, you'll be glad to have a high-level Monk and your Simulacrum of that Monk too, in order to eat up her Legendary Resistances and/or fight her in the antimagic zones and drag her outside of them, so that you CAN bind her with magic.

If a Wizard 20 is a 10 for power, roughly speaking, and if a Fighter 20 is a 7, and a Barb 20 is a 4 (6 if Zealot), I'd call a (Shadow, Long Death, or Elemental) Monk 20 something that looks like a 5 on paper but is actually a 7-8 depending on campaign style. (Monk 17 is only a 5-7 though. 18th level is HUGE for monks.)

P.S. In a Combat As Sport campaign Wizard 20 would only be an 8.

[dmhelp]

It's always bugged me how the Monk's "Martial Arts" doesn't actually feel like martial arts at all. How is it that a Fighter can trip and disarm people with "maneuvers," but "martial arts" is just punching harder and more often?

Martial Arts should give you some special way to trip (or "throw") people, disarm people, and eventually intercept attacks. Sure, Shove prone and Disarm are already things anyone can (try to) do, but Battle Master gets Maneuvers to do it. Martial Arts should let a Monk be the best at it. Or at least equal to a Battle Master.

Just allow monks to pick battle master as a subclass and move the powers from 3, 7, 10, 15, 18 to 3, 6, 11, 17. That gives them martial arts moves and something to do without ki.

[Ovarwa]

Hi,


Just allow monks to pick battle master as a subclass and move the powers from 3, 7, 10, 15, 18 to 3, 6, 11, 17. That gives them martial arts moves and something to do without ki.

Oh, *that* is a clever idea!

And then let them spend 1 pt of ki to use a maneuver when they run through their default number of uses they get for free.

Anyway,

Ken

[Jon talks a lot]

Honestly, the best role I see for a high-level monk is as a mage killer.

Hear me out. They have insane mobility, generally good initiative bonuses, and they hit decently hard. The question is is that enough to reliably isolate and remove evil wizards or what have you. I think so. This is a niche they should fit into well and if you play it strategically enough, you could basically annihilate the biggest threats in an encounter

I mean, think about it. At a high level, you really aren't that worried about many things, but spellcasters sure as hell are one of them.

[MrStabby]

A high level monk is whatever the DM allows it to be.

Monk effectiveness is so DM dependant. If your DM likes to throw more attacks at you than saves and more brutish tough guys then delicate wise guys then the monk is weak. On the other hand if casters are common (monks wreck concentration and casters tend to be weaker vs stunning strike than things like giants, also a lot of spells force saves - something monks are pretty awesome at dealing with) then you will have a field day. And asymmetry is important - if every enemy is identical to every other enemy, then there are no weak points to exploit using monk mobility.

Monks can be really, really powerful - certainly one of the most powerful martial characters, but only in the right campaigns.


The value of monks also depends on who else in in your party. If there are a lot of attack rolls to hit stunned enemies then they rock. If the wizard can just cast fly on the party and obviate your mobility advantage then they suck.

I also believe that at high levels your monastic path matters more and more. If you play a wizard the different schools tend to play pretty much the same in practice, even as you get to high levels. Likewise with fighters - its still all about damage and the attack action. Clerics even get more similar (with a couple of exceptions) at high levels when the new domain spells dry up. But monks - their mid and high level path abilities matter and have a pretty big impact on play.

[Unoriginal]

Honestly, the best role I see for a high-level monk is as a mage killer.

Hear me out. They have insane mobility, generally good initiative bonuses, and they hit decently hard. The question is is that enough to reliably isolate and remove evil wizards or what have you. I think so. This is a niche they should fit into well and if you play it strategically enough, you could basically annihilate the biggest threats in an encounter

I mean, think about it. At a high level, you really aren't that worried about many things, but spellcasters sure as hell are one of them.

I mean you're 100% correct but the "hear me out" and "think about it" aren't really necessary, it's a known fact that Monks can do that and are great at pummeling back row casters.

Hard to find a kind of target more suited for Stunning Strike, too.


If your DM likes to throw more attacks at you than saves and more brutish tough guys then delicate wise guys then the monk is weak.

Monks are great against brutish tough guys, though. Watching a Monk jackhammering a Golem into scrap with their hands is quite a spectacle.


What most Monks struggle the most against is several powerful mooks ganging on them while the rest of the group is busy.

[Spo]

Currently playing a lvl 17 shadow monk/lvl 1 light cleric (cleric mainly for warding flare and ranged cantrips). My AC is 23 or 24 and we are in Mad Mage. Team consists of life cleric, barbarian, gloomstalker/assasin, wizard and sorlock.

Would not change a thing. I have done things the other characters could not have done. Solo'ed a high level vampire with legendary resistances? Yes. Tank Fire Giants in order for the team to re-group? Yes. Scout a gythaky (sp?) base and listen in and understand their attack plans? Yes. Rarely fail any saving throws? Yes.

The tools and fluff of the class and subclass result in coming up with mulitple solutions to practically anything the DM can throw at you.

[MaxWilson]

What most Monks struggle the most against is several powerful mooks ganging on them while the rest of the group is busy.

That right there is a big reason I think the Elemonk is underrated: they're the monk that has a good answer (besides running away) to this weakness of the core chassis.

Long Death and Sun Soul have answers too, but Elemonk's answer is more reliable (save-for-half) than Sun Soul's and more permanent than Long Death's.

[Witty Username]

How about a lich, a nalfeshnee, and a couple of air elementals? (Deadly x2 for a 20th level party.) A DC 19 monk has a 40% chance per hit of stunning the Lich (+10 Con), a 35% chance per hit of stunning the nalfeshnee (+11), and an 80% chance per hit of stunning an air elemental (+2). With up to five attacks per round (e.g. Flurry + Opportunist for a Shadow Monk), a monk has excellent odds of stunning the lich on any given round (will stun the lich 1.13 times on average without advantage on attacks, 1.69 times per round if it's already prone or stunned or in some other way giving the monk advantage) even if the lich Shields instead of Counterspelling. Or it could nullify both air elementals if the lich isn't in range. Even the Nalfeshnee, while not the best target, is certainly worth stunning and will get stunned 1.4 times per round on average. (74% chance of stunning the Nalfeshnee each round, even if the Monk doesn't have advantage, or Bless, etc.).

Isn't that in the realm of 6 ki a turn to keep that up, less if your successful stuns are frontloaded. A level 20 monk only has 20 ki, and you may need to make that ki last multiple combats depending on how your short rest schedule is.
Also by level 20 things like wall of force and force cage are on the table which could take enemies out of the fight with a 100% success rate.
Sidenote: I am skeptical that the air elementals have an effect on the combat much at all, the have low enough HP and AC a level 20 party might be able to kill them in a round with straight damage.

Edit: I think trying to stun the lich would be a poor decision, given that you are very unlikely to stun it past legendary resistance. you would probably need at least 3 rounds to stun it and that would be most of your ki gone after that.

[anthon]

probably low level early episode Tien Shinhan from Dragon Ball/Dragon Ball Z.

You are looking at Warlock Damage, but at melee only range, with a 10d10 attack - something some warlocks can also do (hurl through hell).

Monk: 4d10+20
Warlock: 4d10+20

5e characters at 17-20th level are potent, roughly building destroyers using 8th-9th level spells. It's not as bad as 1e characters that could solo Tiamat, but its roughly 3 mages: 1 ancient dragon ratio, which you can convert to whatever anime you like.

Knowing that, you can then divide by 2.5 to 3, to get how powerful your optimized monk will be. Needless to say, monks in 5e are roughly equal to "that guy in the front 2 rows of kung fu monastery scene",

but NEVER "that guy" who does crazy things in Grappler Baki, or explodes boulders, etc. There's no boulder exploding level power for 5e monks. If you want to get into the 200+ damage, you need a wizard.

[Unoriginal]

Isn't that in the realm of 6 ki a turn to keep that up, less if your successful stuns are frontloaded. A level 20 monk only has 20 ki, and you may need to make that ki last multiple combats depending on how your short rest schedule is.
Also by level 20 things like wall of force and force cage are on the table which could take enemies out of the fight with a 100% success rate.
Sidenote: I am skeptical that the air elementals have an effect on the combat much at all, the have low enough HP and AC a level 20 party might be able to kill them in a round with straight damage.

Edit: I think trying to stun the lich would be a poor decision, given that you are very unlikely to stun it past legendary resistance. you would probably need at least 3 rounds to stun it and that would be most of your ki gone after that.

A Monk can burn through a Lich's Legendary Resistances in one turn. That alone is huge.

[stoutstien]

A Monk can burn through a Lich's Legendary Resistances in one turn. That alone is huge.

Aye. It's often over looked that a monk can basically burn LR off a NPC in the first round leaving them vulnerable for the big spell or effect that can end the encounter.

[KorvinStarmast]

A shadow monk maybe like Zeratul, from StarCraft? I like the comparison. :smallsmile: (Man, I played way too much Starcraft ...)

I wouldn't choose to play one in a high level campaign. I have played them in Tier 3 and Tier 4 one shots. Having all of that ki (which regenerates on a short rest) was a real joy; stunning the enemy means that they are stunned until after my next turn; so I get advantage on the attack to re apply stun: stun lock. The party then shreds the foe.

All monk party of water walking pirates. Sounds like fun. :smallsmile:


Honestly, the best role I see for a high-level monk is as a mage killer. Yep; even better if the monk has a ring of jumping and gauntlets of ogre power. I call that my Boing Boing monk.

The value of monks also depends on who else in in your party. If there are a lot of attack rolls to hit stunned enemies then they rock. I have found this to be true.

But monks - their mid and high level path abilities matter and have a pretty big impact on play. Quivering Palm is pretty nice, yeah.

Monks are great against brutish tough guys, though. Watching a Monk jackhammering a Golem into scrap with their hands is quite a spectacle. They clean clock on Rakshasa's as well (After that sixth level magical attacks feature kicks in).

A Monk can burn through a Lich's Legendary Resistances in one turn. That alone is huge. And if the party wizard hasted the monk, can also begin the stun lock. :smallcool:

[Tzun]

A Monk can burn through a Lich's Legendary Resistances in one turn. That alone is huge.

That seems highly optimistic doesn't it? Monks have at most 4 to 5 attacks a turn at these levels having to burn 1 Ki for flurry, then have to land at least 3 of those attacks plus the target has to fail on all 3 of those saves burning another 3 Ki for the stun. So that's 4 Ki burned in the most optimal outcome. More realistically you're probably looking at burning 5-7 ki to make this happen and usually taking 2 to 3 turns. So basically you burned through 1/3 to 1/2 your Ki. Hopefully you'll be getting a short rest after every encounter or 2.

[MaxWilson]

That seems highly optimistic doesn't it? Monks have at most 4 to 5 attacks a turn at these levels having to burn 1 Ki for flurry, then have to land at least 3 of those attacks plus the target has to fail on all 3 of those saves burning another 3 Ki for the stun. So that's 4 Ki burned in the most optimal outcome. More realistically you're probably looking at burning 5-7 ki to make this happen and usually taking 2 to 3 turns. So basically you burned through 1/3 to 1/2 your Ki. Hopefully you'll be getting a short rest after every encounter or 2.

I suppose Unoriginal might have meant "can" in the same sense as "a Paladin can Smite the luck to death" or "a pair of Wizards can trap it in a Sickening Radiance / Forcecage" combo. This means "it's a potential outcome worth aiming for", not "this will happen with 100% probability".

In any case, the monk is burning off the lich's legendary resistance faster than any spellcaster can, even without advantage and even if the lich Shields instead of Counterspelling. If the lich does Counterspell instead of Shielding, burning off all three resists in one round is not that unlikely for a Shadow Monk (5 attacks per round), I'm guessing somewhere around 20-35% probability.

Of course, Silence + two attacks (Ki-fueled Strikes + Opportunist) is even better against a lich than five attacks, for a Shadow Monk.

[stoutstien]

I suppose Unoriginal might have meant "can" in the same sense as "a Paladin can Smite the luck to death" or "a pair of Wizards can trap it in a Sickening Radiance / Forcecage" combo. This means "it's a potential outcome worth aiming for", not "this will happen with 100% probability".

In any case, the monk is burning off the lich's legendary resistance faster than any spellcaster can, even without advantage and even if the lich Shields instead of Counterspelling. If the lich does Counterspell instead of Shielding, burning off all three resists in one round is not that unlikely for a Shadow Monk (5 attacks per round), I'm guessing somewhere around 20-35% probability.

Of course, Silence + two attacks (Ki-fueled Strikes + Opportunist) is even better against a lich than five attacks, for a Shadow Monk.

Smite the luck to death has a good ring to it.

Agreed. The monk having a potential to burn LR in a turn is usually enough to influence the NPCs course of action.

[MaxWilson]

Smite the luck to death has a good ring to it.

Yeah, but it's really, really unlikely. You'd basically need triple crits in one round.

[Unoriginal]

That seems highly optimistic doesn't it? Monks have at most 4 to 5 attacks a turn at these levels having to burn 1 Ki for flurry, then have to land at least 3 of those attacks plus the target has to fail on all 3 of those saves burning another 3 Ki for the stun. So that's 4 Ki burned in the most optimal outcome. More realistically you're probably looking at burning 5-7 ki to make this happen and usually taking 2 to 3 turns. So basically you burned through 1/3 to 1/2 your Ki. Hopefully you'll be getting a short rest after every encounter or 2.


I suppose Unoriginal might have meant "can" in the same sense as "a Paladin can Smite the luck to death" or "a pair of Wizards can trap it in a Sickening Radiance / Forcecage" combo. This means "it's a potential outcome worth aiming for", not "this will happen with 100% probability".

In any case, the monk is burning off the lich's legendary resistance faster than any spellcaster can, even without advantage and even if the lich Shields instead of Counterspelling. If the lich does Counterspell instead of Shielding, burning off all three resists in one round is not that unlikely for a Shadow Monk (5 attacks per round), I'm guessing somewhere around 20-35% probability.

Of course, Silence + two attacks (Ki-fueled Strikes + Opportunist) is even better against a lich than five attacks, for a Shadow Monk.

I mean at lvl 14 level most Monks will hit the Lich on a 12 if the Lich uses Shield, so it's not unlikely to have 4 attacks land 3 times. And Liches do have good CON save, so it's true that overall it's much more likely to take 6 attacks.

Regardless, as MaxWilson said, even if it takes two turns it's still faster than anyone else.

And we're talking about a lvl 14 fighting against a CR 21 legendary creature.



Agreed. The monk having a potential to burn LR in a turn is usually enough to influence the NPCs course of action.

Yeah, can't just ignore the threat the Monk represents.

Smite the Luck sounds like a Paladin ability that makes the targets of their Smite unable to have advantage for a given amount of time.

[Snails]

If a Wizard 20 is a 10 for power, roughly speaking, and if a Fighter 20 is a 7, and a Barb 20 is a 4 (6 if Zealot), I'd call a (Shadow, Long Death, or Elemental) Monk 20 something that looks like a 5 on paper but is actually a 7-8 depending on campaign style. (Monk 17 is only a 5-7 though. 18th level is HUGE for monks.)


Thank you, MaxWilson. I do appreciate your reasoned opinions. I concede that a savvy player will probably be able to tune in to the campaign style, and hoard 8-10 Ki to be fun enough to play in the big fight.

I, personally, very much dislike the design of the Monk class. It is tied by the apron strings to Ki to be effective, and it is just nickel and dimed for Ki all day long (e.g. Step of the Wind). Furthermore, it is not fundamentally different than the "mighty" Monk that was so "esteemed" in 3e. I am not (entirely) trying to rubbish the Monk when I make that comparison. The high level 3e Monk had great Saves and Spell Resistance, so it had the not small virtue of being likely to survive the 1st round and capable of rescuing friends if things were going very badly. And it, too, could get into the right place at the right time to flurry away with Stun attacks.

[mistajames]

When people say things like this I always wonder what kinds of encounters their DMs construct at high level. Not saying it's not true, just saying it's not inevitable, and there are plenty of high-level monster fights that monks are highly effective in.

How about a lich, a nalfeshnee, and a couple of air elementals? (Deadly x2 for a 20th level party.) A DC 19 monk has a 40% chance per hit of stunning the Lich (+10 Con), a 35% chance per hit of stunning the nalfeshnee (+11), and an 80% chance per hit of stunning an air elemental (+2). With up to five attacks per round (e.g. Flurry + Opportunist for a Shadow Monk), a monk has excellent odds of stunning the lich on any given round (will stun the lich 1.13 times on average without advantage on attacks, 1.69 times per round if it's already prone or stunned or in some other way giving the monk advantage) even if the lich Shields instead of Counterspelling. Or it could nullify both air elementals if the lich isn't in range. Even the Nalfeshnee, while not the best target, is certainly worth stunning and will get stunned 1.4 times per round on average. (74% chance of stunning the Nalfeshnee each round, even if the Monk doesn't have advantage, or Bless, etc.).

The monk is definitely pulling his weight in that fight even though the monsters have truesight.

What about a pair of death knights (Deadly for 20th level)? A DC 19 monk has a 65% chance of stunning a Death Knight with each hit. With Empty Body he can have advantage for an 84% chance to hit, times 65% chance per hit, equals 54% chance of attack of stunning the Death Knight. (1-0.54)^5 ~= 0.02, so there's only 2% chance for the Death Knight to avoid stunning. There's a pretty good chance the monk can stun both Death Knights every round for as long as his ki holds up.

3 Beholders is also a Deadly fight for level 20 PCs, and they're even more vulnerable to Stunning Strike than Death Knights: +4 to Con saves, AC 18.

Honestly the problem IMO with high-level monks is exactly the opposite: they have trouble with swarms of lower-CR monsters (if they're not Elemonks). A dozen Wraiths (Deadly for 4 level 20 PCs) will be a harder fight for four monks than 3 Beholders.

One of these days I'd like to run an all-monk party...

Having played at high levels, I can pretty much guarantee that our party could effectively beat each of those encounters in between 1 and 2 rounds, using minimal resources.

CR breaks down completely at high levels. High-level casters are insane. When we ran our campaign, I remember that one of our encounters (level 18, not level 20) had us facing off against a Mind Flayer Lich (CR22), 2 beholders (CR13 each), and 4 Iron Golems (CR16 each). I mean, it wasn't a cakewalk (you had to think carefully about what you were doing), but it wasn't actually *hard*. And this was a part of a dungeon where we'd go through 5-6 of these encounters in a day.

[MaxWilson]

Thank you, MaxWilson. I do appreciate your reasoned opinions. I concede that a savvy player will probably be able to tune in to the campaign style, and hoard 8-10 Ki to be fun enough to play in the big fight.

I, personally, very much dislike the design of the Monk class. It is tied by the apron strings to Ki to be effective, and it is just nickel and dimed for Ki all day long (e.g. Step of the Wind). Furthermore, it is not fundamentally different than the "mighty" Monk that was so "esteemed" in 3e. I am not (entirely) trying to rubbish the Monk when I make that comparison. The high level 3e Monk had great Saves and Spell Resistance, so it had the not small virtue of being likely to survive the 1st round and capable of rescuing friends if things were going very badly. And it, too, could get into position to flurry away with Stun attacks.

Huh. I'm an AD&D player, so the only things I know about 3E come from video games (Icewind Dale II and The Temple of Elemental Evil). I do remember that taking 1-2 levels in Monk was common on ultimate-AC builds for IWD2, but that more investment than that was counterproductive (better to just pump Banite cleric levels, plus be a Deep Gnome for the spell resistance).

5E monks don't give me that feeling at all, partly because 5E magic is relatively weak (and mostly doesn't stack) and partly because 5E monks aren't so frontloaded. Also because of the changes to the combat system (high-level 5E clerics don't get to make five attacks per round).

================================================


Having played at high levels, (A) I can pretty much guarantee that our party could effectively beat each of those encounters in between 1 and 2 rounds, using minimal resources.

CR breaks down completely at high levels. High-level casters are insane. When we ran our campaign, I remember that one of our encounters (level 18, not level 20) had us facing off against a (B) Mind Flayer Lich (CR22), 2 beholders (CR13 each), and 4 Iron Golems (CR16 each). I mean, it wasn't a cakewalk (you had to think carefully about what you were doing), but it wasn't actually *hard*. And this was a part of a dungeon where we'd go through 5-6 of these encounters in a day.

(A) Well, yeah. That's kind of the point of the example. The monk invests minimal ki to disable a large chunk of the opposition, and the rest of the party cleans up the Deadly x2 encounter. Party winds up spending only short-rest resources to beat the Deadly x2 fight, maybe takes a short rest, and moves on while still being basically at full strength.

(B) That sounds like an encounter where monks would have been extremely useful, to neutralize the beholders. Beholders are glass(ish) cannons, and out of everything in that fight, they both hit the hardest and are the most vulnerable to Stunning Strike (AC 18, +4 to Con saves). The Iron Golems are also easy to stun (AC 20, +5 to Con saves). If you're trying to persuade me that monks are bad because monster Con saves are too high, it isn't working.

[Unoriginal]

Thank you, MaxWilson. I do appreciate your reasoned opinions. I concede that a savvy player will probably be able to tune in to the campaign style, and hoard 8-10 Ki to be fun enough to play in the big fight.

I, personally, very much dislike the design of the Monk class. It is tied by the apron strings to Ki to be effective, and it is just nickel and dimed for Ki all day long (e.g. Step of the Wind). Furthermore, it is not fundamentally different than the "mighty" Monk that was so "esteemed" in 3e. I am not (entirely) trying to rubbish the Monk when I make that comparison. The high level 3e Monk had great Saves and Spell Resistance, so it had the not small virtue of being likely to survive the 1st round and capable of rescuing friends if things were going very badly. And it, too, could get into position to flurry away with Stun attacks.

I think you're ignoring all what a Monk can do even without spending ki.

[mistajames]

I think you're ignoring all what a Monk can do even without spending ki.

They're not contributing much. Unarmed strikes don't get magic weapon mods. Magic weapons are generally a given at these levels. 1d10+5 damage at level 20 is generally below the curve in terms of damage. They're basically a crappier Valor Bard at that point.


(A) Well, yeah. That's kind of the point of the example. The monk invests minimal ki to disable a large chunk of the opposition, and the rest of the party cleans up the Deadly x2 encounter. Party winds up spending only short-rest resources to beat the Deadly x2 fight, maybe takes a short rest, and moves on while still being basically at full strength.

(B) That sounds like an encounter where monks would have been extremely useful, to neutralize the beholders. Beholders are glass(ish) cannons, and out of everything in that fight, they both hit the hardest and are the most vulnerable to Stunning Strike (AC 18, +4 to Con saves). The Iron Golems are also easy to stun (AC 20, +5 to Con saves). If you're trying to persuade me that monks are bad because monster Con saves are too high, it isn't working.

Maybe you're right, and I am underestimating things here. If we expect Monks to drop 4 stunning strikes/round at these levels to incapacitate 1-2 mobs (which, at 5 ki/round, they can keep up for 4 rounds every short rest), it would seem that they are contributing. You need someone else to contribute damage to the mix, but stunning 2 CR-13+ mobs is still a pretty reasonable contribution if the fight only lasts 1-2 rounds.

Odds are, the monk is stunning both beholders every turn, assuming DC19. Provided that you choose your targets wisely, it would seem that Monks can contribute somewhat via Stunning Strike. I think that Way of Mercy also helps a lot to help the monk contribute.

Ki is still a concern though. Empty Body is great, but it costs an Action and 4 ki and only lasts for a single fight, meaning you're taking away Ki that could be spent on Stunning Strike. Diamond Soul is great too, but it also eats Ki. I've never played a monk in T4 or T3, but I know that my T2 monk ran out of Ki constantly. This is a class that benefits a lot from a Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, or Warlock dip for a way to boost their damage (via Hex/Hunter's Mark).

[MaxWilson]

I think you're ignoring all what a Monk can do even without spending ki.

My experience with ki-free monk features:

1.) Sharpshooter Crossbow Expert Kensei is fun, not bad at all. Ranged DMG Disarms, throw nets, use mobility to kite while shooting. This is the Action Hero monk. If you want to walk away from explosions without a scratch, get in gunfights crossbow fights that turn into fistfights (after you disarm each other or run out of ammo), jump off of buildings, scale the outside of a skyscraper (fantasy Burj Khalifa), catch bullets boulders before they can hit you, and shoot bad guys right between the eyes--if you want to be James Bond/John Wick/the Last Action Hero--you can be a Kensei and do all of that without spending any ki. (If you're not a Sharpshooter Crossbow Expert Kensei you can do some of that anyway, but mechanically the playstyle works best with good ranged attacks.)

2.) Mobile Shadow Monk is obviously awesome for Shadow Jumping and Minor Illusion plus 11th level Invisibility. Plinking away with a longbow is kind of boring though in Tier 3+, and melee kiting can get old, so after Tier 2 this monk is more fun out of combat than in combat, when hoarding ki.

3.) Long Death 6th level fear is quite good, gives you a nice AoE to go with your nice single-target stuff. Getting to suck temp HP off enemies (or even chickens) is also nice and thematic. Mastery of Death rarely costs ki but radically changes all of your RP in an extremely fun way (lets you be very casual about danger, which is kind of the opposite of my normal RP tendencies).

4.) Defensive Duelist Prodigy (Athletics) Elemonk is fun, very different from a Mobile monk. Good against solos, small groups, and large groups. I acknowledge that the ki-free stuff is not coming from Elemonk, but I would actually feel a little bit uncomfortable going all-in on grappling and single-target attacks on a different monk like a Shadow Monk or Kensei because they lack the Elemonk's anti-mob AoEs.

[mistajames]

My experience with ki-free monk features:

1.) Sharpshooter Crossbow Expert Kensei is fun, not bad at all. Ranged DMG Disarms, throw nets, use mobility to kite while shooting. This is the Action Hero monk. If you want to walk away from explosions without a scratch, get in gunfights crossbow fights that turn into fistfights (after you disarm each other or run out of ammo), jump off of buildings, scale the outside of a skyscraper (fantasy Burj Khalifa), catch bullets boulders before they can hit you, and shoot bad guys right between the eyes--if you want to be James Bond/John Wick/the Last Action Hero--you can be a Kensei and do all of that without spending any ki. (If you're not a Sharpshooter Crossbow Expert Kensei you can do some of that anyway, but mechanically the playstyle works best with good ranged attacks.)

2.) Mobile Shadow Monk is obviously awesome for Shadow Jumping and Minor Illusion plus 11th level Invisibility. Plinking away with a longbow is kind of boring though in Tier 3+, and melee kiting can get old, so after Tier 2 this monk is more fun out of combat than in combat, when hoarding ki.

3.) Long Death 6th level fear is quite good, gives you a nice AoE to go with your nice single-target stuff. Getting to suck temp HP off enemies (or even chickens) is also nice and thematic. Mastery of Death rarely costs ki but radically changes all of your RP in an extremely fun way (lets you be very casual about danger, which is kind of the opposite of my normal RP tendencies).

4.) Defensive Duelist Prodigy (Athletics) Elemonk is fun, very different from a Mobile monk. Good against solos, small groups, and large groups. I acknowledge that the ki-free stuff is not coming from Elemonk, but I would actually feel a little bit uncomfortable going all-in on grappling and single-target attacks on a different monk like a Shadow Monk or Kensei because they lack the Elemonk's anti-mob AoEs.

And I think this is why the Monk class comes from a design space that is completely at odds with the rest of 5e.

The idea of a mobile monk ducking and weaving away from monsters while attacking intermittently is a really cool idea in theory, but the reality of the situation is that you're giving up tons of damage to be able to skirmish, and skirmishing is completely irrelevant when a monster's response to your antics is to attack your teammates instead.

If the rest of your party is skirmishing too... well I think that gets kind of interesting.

[MaxWilson]

Maybe you're right, and I am underestimating things here. If we expect Monks to drop 4 stunning strikes/round at these levels to incapacitate 1-2 mobs (which, at 5 ki/round, they can keep up for 4 rounds every short rest), it would seem that they are contributing. You need someone else to contribute damage to the mix, but stunning 2 CR-13+ mobs is still a pretty reasonable contribution if the fight only lasts 1-2 rounds.

Odds are, the monk is stunning both beholders every turn, assuming DC19. Provided that you choose your targets wisely, it would seem that Monks can contribute somewhat via Stunning Strike. I think that Way of Mercy also helps a lot to help the monk contribute.

Ki is still a concern though. Empty Body is great, but it costs an Action and 4 ki and only lasts for a single fight, meaning you're taking away Ki that could be spent on Stunning Strike. Diamond Soul is great too, but it also eats Ki. I've never played a monk in T4 or T3, but I know that my T2 monk ran out of Ki constantly. This is a class that benefits a lot from a Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, or Warlock dip for a way to boost their damage (via Hex/Hunter's Mark).

Ki is always a concern, but when 1 point of ki has a 70% chance of saving you from six beholder eye zaps, you go ahead and spend the ki, which you have 18 of anyway. I'm not generally a fan of Flurry of Blows (I suspect that your Tier 2 monk experience probably overused Flurry of Blows for damage, which would explain why you were running out of ki constantly) but this is actually a situation where I would use it until at least one of the beholders was dead, unless I got lucky and stunned both Beholders with my first two attacks that round. (Once they are both stunned, it's not THAT unlikely--will happen 40% of the time--but it's still more likely than not that it won't, and I'll wind up Flurrying just in case.)

After the first round I wind up paying ~1.4 ki per Stunning Strike, plus a ki for Flurry of Blows 60% of the time, so about 3.4 ki per round while both beholders are alive. Since this is saving the party from literally hundreds of HP of damage and possible perma-death I think it's a good deal. I'm also inflicting ~35 HP of damage each round if I'm a Shadow Monk (because Opportunist). If the rest of the party does their jobs right, one or two rounds of Stunning the Beholders should be enough and then they'll be dead and I can move on to other targets which may or may not deserve a Stunning Strike (depends on situation). After combat, one of the casters can throw up a Rope Trick if I need to regain some ki, and then we're back at full strength, ready to take on more beholders and golems and liches.

Is this as brokenly strong as an 18th level Divine Soul who has spent a month conjuring up Couatls Wishing to Planar Bind them? No, although the Couatls won't work in a beholder's antimagic field like a Stunning Strike will. But maximally-abusive spells trump well-played warrior-types including monks. The thing is, maximally-abusive spells also kill campaigns because they kill tension: at a certain point you get tired of playing the game on easy mode and you stop, unless the DM knows how to change the game into something else (the infamous High Level Play problem). Monks are powerful enough to be fun at high levels, and not powerful enough to turn everything into an exercise in Already Solved Problems.


And I think this is why the Monk class comes from a design space that is completely at odds with the rest of 5e.

The idea of a mobile monk ducking and weaving away from monsters while attacking intermittently is a really cool idea in theory, but the reality of the situation is that you're giving up tons of damage to be able to skirmish, and skirmishing is completely irrelevant when a monster's response to your antics is to attack your teammates instead.

If the rest of your party is skirmishing too... well I think that gets kind of interesting.

Yeah, increasing defense (including but not limited to skirmishing) is generally more cost-effective than increasing offense in 5E, but it also requires more teamwork because as you say, the monsters will attack the weakest link. An all-Mobile party is amazing**, and likewise a party of all-Goblin Skulkers, especially if someone in the party has Pass Without Trace. (E.g. Goblin Skulker Paladin, Goblin Skulker Bardlock, Goblin Skulker Evoker, Goblin Skulker Moon Druid = fun.) ** Skirmishing monks also work well if the rest of the party are summoners and ranged attackers. They can hide behind the conjured meatshields (snakes or whatever) and shoot or blast, while the Monk stuns key targets to give all the snakes advantage, almost doubling the summoner's damage output.

But if you can't rely on cooperation from your teammates, a less cost-effective but simpler alternative is just kill the monsters before your teammates can make enough mistakes to die. This is why a Fighter 2/Evoker X is a good addition to any party, even a party of half-witted Barbarian 4/Bard Xs.

Also it depends on how skilled your DM is at pacing and running split parties (https://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/33791/roleplaying-games/the-art-of-pacing-part-5-advanced-techniques). The other PCs can't get themselves killed if they're offscreen.

[HPisBS]

My experience with ki-free monk features:

1.) Sharpshooter Crossbow Expert Kensei is fun, not bad at all. ...

2.) Mobile Shadow Monk is obviously awesome...

3.) Long Death 6th level fear is quite good...

4.) Defensive Duelist Prodigy (Athletics) Elemonk is fun, very different from a Mobile monk....

That's a lot of feats to throw on such a MAD class. Assuming pb or standard array, I expect you'd sacrifice Wis on the Kensei and Shadow, and probably sacrifice Dex on the 4E.



And I think this is why the Monk class comes from a design space that is completely at odds with the rest of 5e.

The idea of a mobile monk ducking and weaving away from monsters while attacking intermittently is a really cool idea in theory, but the reality of the situation is that you're giving up tons of damage to be able to skirmish, and skirmishing is completely irrelevant when a monster's response to your antics is to attack your teammates instead.

If the rest of your party is skirmishing too... well I think that gets kind of interesting.

To be fair, the rest of the party could be staying at range with bows and spells while the Monk slaps the mooks around to keep their attention on the scrawny, unarmored guy taunting "Over here! Nope, over here! You scared? C'mon, I'm right over here." Maybe even throw a dagger as his final attack of the turn to demonstrate that he's still a threat, even from afar.

[MaxWilson]

That's a lot of feats to throw on such a MAD class. Assuming pb or standard array, I expect you'd sacrifice Wis on the Kensei and Shadow, and probably sacrifice Dex on the 4E.

Correct on Kensei. Dex 20 Wis 16 is an okay place to end up.

Shadow only needs one feat (Mobile), which you can get through vhuman, but the Shadow Monk I have most experience with is a Wood Elf with good rolls (native 17 and 16) and didn't need to sacrifice an attribute boost. She actually took Mobile and Alert before Dex 20 or Wis 20 and didn't regret it--Alert Shadow Monks rock.

On 4E I'd actually sacrifice Wis instead of Dex because the key spells are save-for-half, so DCs don't matter quite as much. Dex 20 Wis 18 is where you'd end up at level 20 if you took a third feat like Mobile at some point.

I suspect that monks are less popular among people who play with point buy only.

[Evaar]

2.) Mobile Shadow Monk is obviously awesome for Shadow Jumping and Minor Illusion plus 11th level Invisibility. Plinking away with a longbow is kind of boring though in Tier 3+, and melee kiting can get old, so after Tier 2 this monk is more fun out of combat than in combat, when hoarding ki.


Just out of curiosity, is Mobile really worth it for a Shadow Monk? How are you using it?

I ask because you already have pretty exceptional movement speed, though increasing that further I'm sure is nice. And you already have lots of ways to avoid opportunity attacks, including just carrying a ball bearing with Darkness cast on it in your hand and opening/closing your hand as you like to get around safely.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Isn't that in the realm of 6 ki a turn to keep that up, less if your successful stuns are frontloaded. A level 20 monk only has 20 ki, and you may need to make that ki last multiple combats depending on how your short rest schedule is.
This really depends upon how many 2x Deadly, (or higher) encounters one expects to have. Many high level games will feature bowel shaking encounters at a fairly quick clip, but those same campaigns will often allow the PCs to include items such as Spell Scrolls of Catnap in their kit.


CR breaks down completely at high levels.
I wouldn't say that CR breaks down per say. At around 12th to 14th level, no matter which edition of D&D one is playing, the DM no longer has to worry about 'balancing' encounters. Just throw what you think will fit the story...the group can probably handle it.

If the party is well equipped, this might even happen sooner.
(My 9th level and extremely well equipped 4 person party last Sunday, took on and defeated a Red Abishai and 4 Black Abishai..it was difficult..but doable)



I suspect that monks are less popular among people who play with point buy only
Indeed, most of the "monks suck" crowd, I suspect plays with point buy, where as the other end of the spectrum, is the rolled stats crowd.

I don't typically run games with point buy, but I did run one game using that method. A player swapped their barbarian for a Long Death monk, The LD monk works with either method of stat generation.

[MaxWilson]

Just out of curiosity, is Mobile really worth it for a Shadow Monk? How are you using it?

I ask because you already have pretty exceptional movement speed, though increasing that further I'm sure is nice. And you already have lots of ways to avoid opportunity attacks, including just carrying a ball bearing with Darkness cast on it in your hand and opening/closing your hand as you like to get around safely.

It's nice for a ki-free disengage option that doesn't interfere with Martial Arts or rely on terrain. It lets you hard-counter certain classes of encounters. If I had to do things over again though I'd be tempted to take Alert at level 4 though instead of Mobile, because Alert is extremely strong on a Shadow Monk, not only for initiative in close quarters but also to make Darkness into a quasi-Blur spell which can also benefit allies.

But at high levels, against foes with truesight/blindsight, Darkness doesn't work, so Mobile still has benefits at high level anyway. I would just delay Mobile, not skip it.

I also value the Dash+difficult terrain synergy of Mobile more than I suspect most people do. It's great for opening up distance.

[HPisBS]

Indeed, most of the "monks suck" crowd, I suspect plays with point buy, where as the other end of the spectrum, is the rolled stats crowd.

Ya think?
lol


(I played my Magic Initiate V.uman, OH → Tranquility Monk with standard array. While I had fun, the MADness hurt. It especially hurt when my ki save DC was just 1 too low to land a stun. And so, I now continually champion certain Monk buffs.)

[BoutsofInsanity]

Would you mind explaining what you mean by "straight combat", please?

Standing in front of a pure combat class type or monster and trading blows.

For example - Standing in front of a Death Knight Monster or a Straight Fighter and full attacking and trading blows.

The AC and the Hit point differential would typically delete the monk in short order. The monk can off tank and provide distraction but when it comes time to "plug the gap" and stand in the front and just go straight at it, the Monk loses most of the time.

Caveat would be if they have weak constitution saves. Then stunning fist comes in and works pretty well.

[mistajames]

Just out of curiosity, is Mobile really worth it for a Shadow Monk? How are you using it?

I ask because you already have pretty exceptional movement speed, though increasing that further I'm sure is nice. And you already have lots of ways to avoid opportunity attacks, including just carrying a ball bearing with Darkness cast on it in your hand and opening/closing your hand as you like to get around safely.

That's kind of the core of the problem. Monk actually offers very little of value to a ranged build.

Kensei gets Sharpen the Blade... but most characters at this level are already using +X magic weapons already so that's kind of irrelevant. They can do bonus damage with a BA... but this doesn't matter if you're already using your BA for CBE (which is better than the monk feature).

At the end of the day, the high-level kensei's class features that help it do its job break down to the following:

1. The damage die on the Hand Crossbow increases from a 1d6 to a 1d10;

2. They can re-roll one miss/turn; and

3. A bunch of miscellaneous defensive abilities.

Otherwise, you're just throwing out 3 attacks/round like any other class with the Extra Attack feature and CBE. You're basically on the same level as a Level 12 VH Valor Bard with 20 Dex and CBE/SS, but without the spellcasting. This is not exciting at all for a ranged build in T4.

[MaxWilson]

Ya think?
lol

(I played my Magic Initiate V.uman, OH → Tranquility Monk with point buy. While I had fun, the MADness hurt. It especially hurt when my ki save DC was just 1 too low to land a stun. Hence, my continually championing certain Monk buffs.)

My single biggest annoyance with point buy, and the reason I would generally avoid monks under PB, is the pressure to dump Int and Cha. I do have one Str 13 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 8 Wis 16 Cha 8 monk concept (basically Wong, from the Dr. Strange movie) but in general I dislike the RP that inevitably results from PB + my powergaming instincts. With rolled stats that's less likely to be a issue, e.g. the Shadow Monk I mentioned upthread also happens to have Int 16 and Cha 16 because that's just how she rolled. Rolling the occasional dim-witted and socially awkward monk isn't an issue but I don't want every monk to be like that, and PB forces the issue a little too hard for my taste.

Under 3d6-in-order, which I use less often than I probably should, (decent) monks become quite rare, and kind of exciting to roll up.

(Roll, roll) For example, the first decent 3d6-in-order monk I got in about 15 rolls was (human) Str 6 Dex 18 (17) Con 12 Int 11 Wis 14 (13) Cha 10. I would make that a Sharpshooter Kensei monk in a heartbeat and happily play it. It's not actually any BETTER than point buy could get you, and arguably it's worse in terms of powerful, but on a RP level it's a lot easier to play a Int 11 Jason Bourne than Int 8 Jason Bourne.

[Thunderous Mojo]

I also value the Dash+difficult terrain synergy of Mobile more than I suspect most people do. It's great for opening up distance.
I will echo this. Both the Monk and Rogue in my Swords of Power campaign have the Mobile feat, and ignoring Difficult terrain on a Dash is a game changing ability.
Especially in games that feature varied terrain.

LOL..MaxWilson, sometimes I think you have an ability similar to the Probing Telepathy power of an aboleth. You seemingly know my greatest gaming desires. 😀

[MaxWilson]

I will echo this. Both the Monk and Rogue in my Swords of Power campaign have the Mobile, and ignoring Difficult terrain on a Dash is a game changing ability.
Especially in games that feature varied terrain.

LOL..MaxWilson, sometimes I think you have an ability similar to the Probing Telepathy power of an aboleth. You seemingly know my greatest gaming desires. 😀

Thank you, I am flattered. Would love to have you as a beta tester for my online ShiningSword game (XCOM/Bard's Tale-inspired 5E CRPG) if I ever get it into a playable state. (COVID lockdown has been bad for my ability to focus.)

[Snails]

I think you're ignoring all what a Monk can do even without spending ki.

I will say "Guilty, as charged!" to that.

I do not see any coherence around Ki versus non-Ki abilities. And I am not greatly enamored by the non-Ki abilities I see.

Way of Shadow's Shadow Step is pretty good, but I am not really all that impressed by that path overall (albeit it will scratch an itch for some players, so I understand if others see this differently).

[blackjack50]

In my ideal game a high level monk would be a character like one punch man, yojiro hanmam or jin taejin, the embodiment of bodily perfection, able to destroy mountains in a single kick. However that would be baaaaiscally impossible to balance lol.

So what IS a high level monk like? What fictional character best fits them? How do they feel in combat? How do they generally do? What is the monk's role at that level?

I look at higher level monks like “Neo/Morpheus” matrix like fighters. Fast and agile. Not the most power compared to their enemies though (agents). But lethal.

[Snails]

Indeed, most of the "monks suck" crowd, I suspect plays with point buy, where as the other end of the spectrum, is the rolled stats crowd.


You may be right. IMNSHO, it is a serious design flaw in a Core class for this to really matter much. (I recognize it may be unavoidable for it to matter some.)

[mistajames]

I will say "Guilty, as charged!" to that.

I do not see any coherence around Ki versus non-Ki abilities. And I am not greatly enamored by the non-Ki abilities I see.

Way of Shadow's Shadow Step is pretty good, but I am not really all that impressed by that path overall (albeit it will scratch an itch for some players, so I understand if others see this differently).

Most of the optimized Monk builds that I can think of will dip Rogue, Cleric, and/or Ranger. Something like a VH (Devil's Sight) Shadow Monk 5/Peace Cleric 1/Gloom Stalker Ranger 4/Shadow Monk X would work quite well. Gives expertise, Devil's Sight, Concentration outlet, Additional damage per attack, etc.

[MaxWilson]

You may be right. IMNSHO, it is a serious design flaw in a Core class for this to really matter much. (I recognize it may be unavoidable for it to matter some.)

Also note that the conventional wisdom on monks is for the PHB monks. Tasha's Ki Fueled Strikes for monks is one of very few Tasha's rules which I personally am using, and Tasha's has other monk buffs on top of that. E.g. the Sharpshooter Kensei thing gets even better if you can use your ki retroactively to increase your to-hit bonus after you miss (Focused Aim, +2 per ki). It's not quite as powerful as Action Surging two or three extra attacks, but you get to use it far more often than once per rest...

[Amechra]

Back when I played a Monk, we misread Step of the Wind and thought it let you Dash and Disengage as part of the same bonus action. I honestly think that that works out pretty well, and was kinda disappointed when I was corrected.

---

With Tasha's, one of the features that massively helps out the Monk is Ki-Fueled Strike. It effectively gives 4e and Shadow Monks War Magic, makes ranged Monks more viable (since using Focused Aim to salvage a missed attack lets you make a bonus-action attack), and makes Kensei pretty great archers (because Deft Strike lets you guarantee that bonus-action attack). Monks actually have some pretty great baseline ranged abilities now — every Monk can use Dedicated Weapon to turn shortbows or slings into Monk weapons, and Elves or multiclass Monks can use longbows.

Honestly, I kinda want to play a Kensei "zen slinger" with the Crusher feat. That could be cool.

EDIT: PB Monks are fine. It's not hard to hit Dex 16 and Wis 16, which is all the class really wants.

[Tzun]

EDIT: PB Monks are fine. It's not hard to hit Dex 16 and Wis 16, which is all the class really wants.

I agree. For the most part, PB is fine for monks unless you're rolling multiple 18s but then who wouldn't benefit from those rolls. The problem I have with the monk class in general is that all of their good stuff costs Ki and although it may seem that 15-20 ki points are a lot, it really isn't when everything you want to do costs Ki. Sure they have non ki abilities like great mobility and nice saves but all that running around ain't gonna get you much if ya can't deliver when ya get there.

[MaxWilson]

I agree. For the most part, PB is fine for monks unless you're rolling multiple 18s but then who wouldn't benefit from those rolls. The problem I have with the monk class in general is that all of their good stuff costs Ki and although it may seem that 15-20 ki points are a lot, it really isn't when everything you want to do costs Ki. Sure they have non ki abilities like great mobility and nice saves but all that running around ain't gonna get you much if ya can't deliver when ya get there.

Hence, one reason why Kensei Sharpshooters are so much fun: so you can leverage running away into power instead of running toward.

[MrStabby]

Just out of curiosity, is Mobile really worth it for a Shadow Monk? How are you using it?

I ask because you already have pretty exceptional movement speed, though increasing that further I'm sure is nice. And you already have lots of ways to avoid opportunity attacks, including just carrying a ball bearing with Darkness cast on it in your hand and opening/closing your hand as you like to get around safely.

As long as you are smart about it, no. Mobile is not worth it, especially on a shadow monk. Don't get me wrong, mobile is a great feat on a class that doesn't get great mobility boosts anyway, but on a shadowmonk its... OK. Nothing special. Would rather have +2 wisdom. Or +2 constitution even.

Mobile is good for when you find yourself surrounded and run out of Ki and caught in the light - but as a shadow monk the trick is to avoid that situation.

[Evaar]

Mobile is good for when you find yourself surrounded and run out of Ki and caught in the light - but as a shadow monk the trick is to avoid that situation.

And even then, Step of the Wind, Disengage out of there.

That's why I asked, it just seems like a lot of investment for stats the Monk really needs. But I guess if you're rolling stats, maybe you don't need them.

[MaxWilson]

As long as you are smart about it, no. Mobile is not worth it, especially on a shadow monk. Don't get me wrong, mobile is a great feat on a class that doesn't get great mobility boosts anyway, but on a shadowmonk its... OK. Nothing special. Would rather have +2 wisdom. Or +2 constitution even.

Mobile is good for when you find yourself surrounded and run out of Ki and caught in the light - but as a shadow monk the trick is to avoid that situation.

It depends partly on whether you intend to be an excellent party scout and close quarters combatant who is also TWICE as good at night or underground, or to operate primarily underground and at night.

To some extent this is also a question of whether or not you play in a Combat As War sandbox or a more linear structure (or something in between). I.e. does being slippery even in broad daylight grant you additional freedom?

[MrStabby]

And even then, Step of the Wind, Disengage out of there.

That's why I asked, it just seems like a lot of investment for stats the Monk really needs. But I guess if you're rolling stats, maybe you don't need them.

Yeah, its nice to have if you can get it for free, but there is almost always something better you could take. Even if you were somehow able to start with maxed stats there is some solid competition from other feats as well. Are you better off with mobile or with sharpshooter? Or fey-touched? Or even elven accuracy? Or crusher? Or lucy, alert or drow high magic....

[MaxWilson]

Yeah, its nice to have if you can get it for free, but there is almost always something better you could take. Even if you were somehow able to start with maxed stats there is some solid competition from other feats as well. Are you better off with mobile or with sharpshooter? Or fey-touched? Or even elven accuracy? Or crusher? Or lucy, alert or drow high magic....

Welcome to D&D. Lots of game space to explore. Dilemmas are interesting and good.


And even then, Step of the Wind, Disengage out of there.

That's why I asked, it just seems like a lot of investment for stats the Monk really needs. But I guess if you're rolling stats, maybe you don't need them.

I assume by "rolled stats" you mean "high rolls" since otherwise it's a non sequitur. Yes, she was lucky. Lower rolls might have changed the concept, or even made her into something else entirely like a warlock. In any case, she doesn't have problems with ki starvation.

[Tzun]

Hence, one reason why Kensei Sharpshooters are so much fun: so you can leverage running away into power instead of running toward.

I'm interested in playing that. With the optional rules from Tasha's, that might be a pretty nice build.

[MaxWilson]

I'm interested in playing that. With the optional rules from Tasha's, that might be a pretty nice build.

EKs are also quite good at that same thing. The EK is overall a better archer than the pre-Tasha's Kensei, but the Kensei is better when it turns into an action movie, e.g. bad guy grabs your quiver of bolts and chucks it off a cliff and you do the same to him. Even there EK isn't bad (Shadow Blade), they're just not as... kinetic. E.g. it takes a round to don a shield, and the EK can't grapple and enemy and run 20' up a wall before dropping them for 2d6 + prone damage. EK just kills them with a Shadow Blade, standing mostly in one place unless Mobile.

They're both good in different ways.

[Thunderous Mojo]

I do not see any coherence around Ki versus non-Ki abilities. And I am not greatly enamored by the non-Ki abilities I see.

... it is a serious design flaw in a Core class for this to really matter much.
Out of curiosity, have you played any other editions of D&D?
(Just trying to gauge your perspective)

The 5e monk non-Ki abilities seem most inspired by the 3e monk, and then secondarily references the 1e monk. So there is definitely an intent to appeal to legacy players in the design.

In 5e Monks and Barbarians, (the classes that have Unarmored Defense), are the one's that need high stats. In 1e & 2e this was Paladins and Rangers. Paladins in 3e were highly attribute dependent.
(So each edition seems to have it's offenders)

Unarmored Defense if designed now would probably not reference a second ability score modifier but would instead be 10 + PB + Dex or Con (for a Barbarian), with periodic AC boosts at certain levels. This would reduce MAD.

[Schwann145]

Answering the title question, high level monks are like a disappointing version of most other melee classes, except with a bunch of side-grade-quality nifty tricks that give the illusion of being better than they actually are.

Being immune to poison and disease is outstanding - when it matters... and useless when it doesn't. "Shocking" yourself out of a charm or fear is likewise. Talking to anything is a really neat, but pure ribbon, ability.

Frankly, you're best at the very early levels where you have what essentially boils down to free dual wielding with the fighting style and half the feat tacked on. Get in there with that spear and attack twice when everyone else can only attack once! Just... don't die with your middling AC and less-than-frontliner HP, yea?
However, you're very MAD (wanting to max two abilities) which leaves little room for feats, and you're locked out of GWM because of "monk weapon" limitations. So the higher your levels climb, the farther you fall behind on damage out put.

Then, to make matters worse, you're not even all that great at your strengths as a Monk.
•Mobility? Your speed increase is not meaningfully faster than a Barbarian, or anyone with the Mobile feat, for 10 levels - half your career (more than half for most, since most characters don't go past low teens!) You can get a free Dash, but it's not Free, it costs Ki every time, so you're a bit like a Rogue, but worse. Meanwhile, a Wizard can throw 30ft on anyone with a 1st level spell from 1st level onward, or the upgraded version with 3rd level Haste. Paladins can summon a mount from thin air and run circles around you that way. Gone are the days of 3.x Monks who run like the wind, unfortunately. Is mobility a strength of the class? Absolutely it is, it's just kinda low on the list of classes that are particularly good at mobility.
•Tankiness? People like to claim Monks are good off-tanks, and this always leaves me scratching my head. Sure, if you slam Ki points on every turn for the free Dodge, then you can be kinda annoying to hit for a tiny lil while, but that's not a lasting strategy and will run you out of Ki fast, and a Monk without Ki is really in a rough spot. Otherwise, you just don't have the AC or HP to be sticking in melee. You want to be skirmishing if you want to be surviving.
•Battlefield Control? Sure, if you wanna put all your eggs into one, very expensive, very unpredictable, basket! Stunning Fist is outstanding and being able to hit it again and again is a huge deal... Requiring you to 1) hit, 2) deal damage, and 3) have the enemy fail a (very common) Con save... It's another one of those "dedicate all your Ki to this strategy, and then be really bad until a short rest" strategies. If a 5 minute adventuring day is gamey and wrong for Wizards, it's also gamey and wrong for Monks. ;)
•DPR/Striker? Eh, again, you're a lil above the curve before level 5, but lacking anything like GWM, Smite, Sneak Attack, etc. you just won't keep up the longer the game goes. If you go all out spending Ki every round on FoB you look alright, but that's a losing strategy and leaves you dry for better Ki uses.

What Monks are particularly good at is Battlefield Maneuverability. Between increased walk speed, on-command Dash, slow falls, walking on water, up walls, etc, you can pretty reliably get to where you want to be without incident (not as well as a spellcaster, but... casters... c'mon).
The problem is that "battlefield mobility" is not a strategy unto itself.

[MaxWilson]

Being immune to poison and disease is outstanding - when it matters... and useless when it doesn't. "Shocking" yourself out of a charm or fear is likewise. Talking to anything is a really neat, but pure ribbon, ability.

I don't really disagree that much but want to point out a couple of uses:

(1) Being immune to poison enables some nifty combos, especially if you're already Alert as discussed elsewhere in this thread. Your Necromancer buddy (if you have one) can turn on Cloudkill for his zombies and skeletons, and you can be right there in the middle of the Cloudkill too, stunning monsters and being attacked only at disadvantage. It's not necessarily better than other combos but it's a nice extra arrow in your party quiver, sort of like the wizard getting double concentration.

(2) Tongue of the Sun and Moon makes Shadow Monk the best eavesdropper in the game.


However, you're very MAD (wanting to max two abilities) which leaves little room for feats, and you're locked out of GWM because of "monk weapon" limitations. So the higher your levels climb, the farther you fall behind on damage out put.

You're not locked out of Sharpshooter. See above RE: Kensei, which is better than ever if you're using Tasha's rules. (Possibly a big "if".)


•Mobility? Your speed increase is not meaningfully faster than a Barbarian, or anyone with the Mobile feat, for 10 levels - half your career (more than half for most, since most characters don't go past low teens!) You can get a free Dash, but it's not Free, it costs Ki every time, so you're a bit like a Rogue, but worse. (A) Meanwhile, a Wizard can throw 30ft on anyone with a 1st level spell from 1st level onward, or the upgraded version with 3rd level Haste. (B) Paladins can summon a mount from thin air and run circles around you that way. Gone are the days of 3.x Monks who run like the wind, unfortunately. Is mobility a strength of the class? Absolutely it is, it's just kinda low on the list of classes that are particularly good at mobility.

(A) Don't you mean 10'? (Longstrider.)

(B) In terrain where mounts are possible, you can also just bring your own mount that you bought at a regular stables. That isn't all terrains. I do agree that mounts are lovely, but they're not paladin-specific.


•Battlefield Control? Sure, if you wanna put all your eggs into one, very expensive, very unpredictable, basket! Stunning Fist is outstanding and being able to hit it again and again is a huge deal... Requiring you to 1) hit, 2) deal damage, and 3) have the enemy fail a (very common) Con save... It's another one of those "dedicate all your Ki to this strategy, and then be really bad until a short rest" strategies. (C) If a 5 minute adventuring day is gamey and wrong for Wizards, it's also gamey and wrong for Monks. ;)

(C) There's rather a large difference between a Monk (or Fighter) needing 60 minutes of downtime to recharge before being back at full strength, and a wizard or sorcerer needing 24 hours to be back at full strength. There's a reason people don't gripe about the Five Minute Adventuring Hour.

[Schwann145]

Tongue of the Sun and Moon makes Shadow Monk the best eavesdropper in the game.
I wanna say GOO Chainlock has it beat, but that does require the DM to rule Awakened Mind to be two-way, which isn't the intent but did seem to be cool with JC when he was asked about it. ;)


You're not locked out of Sharpshooter. See above RE: Kensei, which is better than ever if you're using Tasha's rules. (Possibly a big "if".)
True! Which is hyper-specific to one type of Kensai so I didn't call it out, but fair catch... and makes the "no heavy weapons" limitation doubly-frustrating and make even less sense, and it already made zero! xD


Don't you mean 10'? (Longstrider.)
I actually was thinking Expeditious Retreat for the bonus action Dashing, but I always forget that's self-only. Good catch. :) Monk still doesn't have enough speed to effectively skirmish without either spell help or a Sentinel buddy (unless they're willing to blow through their Ki at lightspeed). ;(


In terrain where mounts are possible, you can also just bring your own mount that you bought at a regular stables. That isn't all terrains. I do agree that mounts are lovely, but they're not paladin-specific.
They're not Paladin-specific, but regular mounts are incredibly easy to kill, so using one you summon is of much greater value/return-on-investment/whatever than replacing a real one constantly.



There's rather a large difference between a Monk (or Fighter) needing 60 minutes of downtime to recharge before being back at full strength, and a wizard or sorcerer needing 24 hours to be back at full strength. There's a reason people don't gripe about the Five Minute Adventuring Hour.
True, it could be a lot worse - they could be Sorcerer Points! But jokes aside, unless the party is built to abuse Short Rests, then no one is going to want to spend multiple hours breaking because the Monk is out of juice... again.

[HPisBS]

True, it could be a lot worse - they could be Sorcerer Points! But jokes aside, unless the party is built to abuse Short Rests, then no one is going to want to spend multiple hours breaking because the Monk is out of juice... again.

I mostly agree with the sentiment, but, to be fair, it isn't that hard to build a fairly short rest -focused party.

Monk, Warlock, Fighter, Cleric, Paladin, Druid, and even Wizard all have some short rest resource or other. (Ki, spell slots, 2nd wind & action surge, channel divinity, c.d. again, wild shape, and arcane recovery, respectively.) And then, there's a bunch of subclasses, and a few feats, that add their own short rest -based features.

And of course, spending hit dice is always an option.


But yeah. Ki tends to be spread pretty thin. Patient Defense and Step of the Wind should be free. Or at least should become free at some point.

Something like:

- Deflect Blow: Whenever a creature within melee range makes a melee attack against you, you may use your reaction to attempt to deflect the blow. To do so, roll your Martial Arts die and subtract the result from the enemy’s attack roll.
You can choose to use this feature after the creature makes its roll, but before the DM determines whether the attack roll succeeds or fails.

- Intercepting Fist: Whenever a creature within melee range makes a melee attack against you, you may use your reaction to attempt to counter-attack first. To do so, make an unarmed attack roll. If the result is higher than both the target's attack roll, and AC, then your attack hits and the target's attack is lost. Otherwise, you miss, and the creature's attack is not lost.
You can choose to use this feature after the creature makes its roll, but before the DM determines whether the attack roll succeeds or fails.

[MaxWilson]

Monk, Warlock, Fighter, Cleric, Paladin, Druid, and even Wizard all have some short rest resource or other. (Ki, spell slots, 2nd wind & action surge, channel divinity, c.d. again, wild shape, and arcane recovery, respectively.)

Also Bard (inspiration, after Tier 1), Barbarian (Relentless Rage, after Tier 2), and a bunch of races like Shifter, Firbolg, and Lizardman. Even Rogue eventually gets a base class ability that is short-rest based (Stroke of Luck at 20). Inspiring Leader is one of the most powerful feats, and it refreshes on a short rest. And as you say, plenty of subclasses (like Battlemaster) refresh on a short rest.

A short rest is a substantial power refresh for the average party, whether or not it has monks in it. You'd have to go out of your way to design a party which would have the right to grumble about a Monk taking 2 hours a day to regain ki twice (a bunch of dwarven Beastmasters and Assassins maybe?), and even then they'd be stupid to do so unless the adventure was so easy that the monk had no need to spend ki in the first place. A party which actively COMPLAINS about a monk spending ki intelligently to stun key glass canons like Beholders, and wants to press on without letting anyone rest even if there's no urgency, has no right to my sympathy when they get disintegrated by Beholders or possessed by Intellect Devourers. Congrats on winning your Darwin Award, folks.

[Witty Username]

A Monk can burn through a Lich's Legendary Resistances in one turn. That alone is huge.
A lich has a 45% chance of being stunned, to burn though all three legendary resistances a monk would need to land three successful stuns which has an about 9% chance of happening. For reverence, That is slightly less than the chance of landing a single crit from two attacks(or one made with advantage)(9.75%). Which a level 20 rogue could do 70 average damage before weapon, dex or something like sharpshooter. that is over half of a lich's HP, leaving it a relatively easy kill from the rest of the party without spending any resources on the attack or the disengage. I am not saying these things are not cool when they happen, but they don't happen often and it is not a reasonable strategy to rely on these things happening with any consistency.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Being immune to poison and disease is outstanding - when it matters... and useless when it doesn't. "Shocking" yourself out of a charm or fear is likewise. Talking to anything is a really neat, but pure ribbon, ability.
I appreciate posts like this, as it really brings home how different some games are from the games I run and play in. Posts like these, broaden my perspective and thus my horizon. Sincerely, thank you for the post.

Alas I disagree with much of it.

How many people die from disease and poison in real life? How many explorers died from spoiled provisions and how many indigenous people in the Western Hemisphere died from novel diseases from Europe? Narratively, immunity from poison and disease is a Ron Burgundy level ability....in San Diego...it's kinda a big deal.

1e monks could eventually talk to plants and animals, so Tongue of the Sun and Moon isn't quite that. An always active, Tongues spell, that is immune to Counterspell, Dispel Magic, and Anti-Magic fields, is in my judgement at least equivalent to a 4th level spell.

In adventures that feature interplanar or interplanetary travel, Tongues of the Sun and Moon is very useful. In AD&D any high Intelligence character could be a polyglot. In 5e one typically has to prioritize languages through race, class, and background. Some campaigns might allow a PC to learn a language through training, many don't, or the opportunity never arises.

Any 13th level monk can talk to reclusive Kuo-Toa Monitors in a subterranean sea at the center of the world, and then talk to Neogi Slavers on a Spelljammer vessel they were teleported to.

From a role playing perspective, any player of a monk has great RP hooks by just asking "how did my monk get these abilities?", "What did the training consist of?" Did lessons with a coautl, or a bound demon teach the monk all languages? Do Monks of the North Fist take iocane powder, and all known poisons for years to build immunity?

These abilities can give so much more depth to a PC and a campaign than their mere mechanical values.

Otherwise, you just don't have the AC or HP to be sticking in melee. You want to be skirmishing if you want to be surviving.
Skirmishing is the name of the game, period, in 5e. A Red Abishai that hits with every attack, and does average damage kills a 20th level fighter with max hit points in approximately 3.4 rounds. Battleships are no longer active Ships of the Line for a reason...slugfests cost too much.

Same is true for 5e.

Even against an AC 26 Fighter, the Red Abishai is doing around 52 points of damage a round. This is a "standard" Devil...and once you are discussing CR 19 creatures.and high level PCs..one shouldn't just assume "standard" stats..."standard" is just the starting point.

What Monks are particularly good at is Battlefield Maneuverability. Between increased walk speed, on-command Dash, slow falls, walking on water, up walls, etc, you can pretty reliably get to where you want to be without incident (not as well as a spellcaster, but... casters... c'mon).
The problem is that "battlefield mobility" is not a strategy unto itself.
The Maginot Line would beg to differ. Mobility often is a necessary precursor for battlefield control. Also the monk's mobility isn't limited to solely the battlefield.

Exploration is the third rail of D&D.

[Witty Username]

This is more low level thinking but I think monk could benefit from borrowing some of the other classes methods of solving the same problem.
For example, way of the open hand has a very similar 3rd level ability to the swarm keeper ranger, but the monk's is gated behind another ability that requires resources.
This reasoning would probably substantially reduce the number of abilities that use ki, which may need some tinkering to avoid over-tuning. But may improve the game play feel.

[Tzun]

True, it could be a lot worse - they could be Sorcerer Points! But jokes aside, unless the party is built to abuse Short Rests, then no one is going to want to spend multiple hours breaking because the Monk is out of juice... again.

Well at least sorcerers still have spells left. A monk without Ki is really looking bad.



Skirmishing is the name of the game, period, in 5e. A Red Abishai that hits with every attack, and does average damage kills a 20th level fighter with max hit points in approximately 3.4 rounds. Battleships are no longer active Ships of the Line for a reason...slugfests cost too much.

Same is true for 5e.

Even against an AC 26 Fighter, the Red Abishai is doing around 52 points of damage a round. This is a "standard" Devil...and once you are discussing CR 19 creatures.and high level PCs..one shouldn't just assume "standard" stats..."standard" is just the starting point.

The Maginot Line would beg to differ. Mobility often is a necessary precursor for battlefield control. Also the monk's mobility isn't limited to solely the battlefield.


Skirmishing is fine and all but unlike the panzers, monks don't pack much of a punch when they get to Paris, especially if they're out of Ki points.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Skirmishing is fine and all but unlike the panzers, monks don't pack much of a punch when they get to Paris, especially if they're out of Ki points.
LoL.."packing punches"...and knees, and elbows, and head butts are sort of the monks groove. 🃏

This has been asked previously, but why is it in so many theoretical examples is the Monk out of Ki points but the Battlemaster Fighter seemingly always has all 6 of their Maneuvers and all of their Action Surges available?

18 Ki points is a larger number than 6 Maneuvers...is it not?
Disarms, Trips, Shoves...these actions can all be substituted for an attack, and cost no Ki points.

A bonus action disarm might do no damage, but it might stop the special Iron Golem from Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure from using their whip made from cockatrice feathers on the squishy that has low Con saves?

Damage can be important, but protecting the party wizard from being turned to stone is also important.

Taoist philosophy has the concept of Wu-Wei..it roughly means "no action". The idea is one does not use overwhelming force to accomplish one's goals. One waits, one subtlety arranges circumstances, so when one does apply force, that force is maximized.

Monks have a sufficient number of features that don't require Ki points to be effective in many different scenarios...before one considers that Ki points recharge on a Short Rest.

If you are just blowing Ki Points Willy-Nilly, without waiting, or creating, the opportune moment to STRIKE!, then I would argue..the problem is less with the class, and more with the play style.

A Paladin the uses all of their spell slots for smites on a trivial encounter isn't packing a "huge punch in Paris" either.

[MaxWilson]

LoL.."packing punches"...and knees, and elbows, and head butts are sort of the monks groove. 🃏

This has been asked previously, but why is it in so many theoretical examples is the Monk out of Ki points but the Battlemaster Fighter seemingly always has all 6 of their Maneuvers and all of their Action Surges available?

18 Ki points is a larger number than 6 Maneuvers...is it not?
Disarms, Trips, Shoves...these actions can all be substituted for an attack, and cost no Ki points.

A bonus action disarm might do no damage, but it might stop the special Iron Golem from Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure from using their whip made from cockatrice feathers on the squishy that has low Con saves?

Damage can be important, but protecting the party wizard from being turned to stone is also important.

Taoist philosophy has the concept of Wu-Wei..it roughly means "no action". The idea is one does not use overwhelming force to accomplish one's goals. One waits, one subtlety arranges circumstances, so when one does apply force, that force is maximized.

Monks have a sufficient number of features that don't require Ki points to be effective in many different scenarios...before one considers that Ki points recharge on a Short Rest.

If you are just blowing Ki Points Willy-Nilly, without waiting, or creating, the opportune moment to STRIKE!, then I would argue..the problem is less with the class, and more with the play style.

A Paladin the uses all of their spell slots for smites on a trivial encounter isn't packing a "huge punch in Paris" either.

I came here to say this:

Compared to what? They pack more punch than cantrips or a resourceless sword-and-shield Paladin, less punch than an Action Surging Fighter. But if the monk is out of ki then the Fighter probably used up Action Surge a long time ago, and Paladins can't regain spell slots just by meditating for an hour.

But then I realized that ThunderousMojo just said it better.

[Unoriginal]

LoL.."packing punches"...and knees, and elbows, and head butts are sort of the monks groove. 🃏

This has been asked previously, but why is it in so many theoretical examples is the Monk out of Ki points but the Battlemaster Fighter seemingly always has all 6 of their Maneuvers and all of their Action Surges available?

18 Ki points is a larger number than 6 Maneuvers...is it not?
Disarms, Trips, Shoves...these actions can all be substituted for an attack, and cost no Ki points.

A bonus action disarm might do no damage, but it might stop the special Iron Golem from Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure from using their whip made from cockatrice feathers on the squishy that has low Con saves?

Damage can be important, but protecting the party wizard from being turned to stone is also important.

Taoist philosophy has the concept of Wu-Wei..it roughly means "no action". The idea is one does not use overwhelming force to accomplish one's goals. One waits, one subtlety arranges circumstances, so when one does apply force, that force is maximized.

Monks have a sufficient number of features that don't require Ki points to be effective in many different scenarios...before one considers that Ki points recharge on a Short Rest.

If you are just blowing Ki Points Willy-Nilly, without waiting, or creating, the opportune moment to STRIKE!, then I would argue..the problem is less with the class, and more with the play style.

A Paladin the uses all of their spell slots for smites on a trivial encounter isn't packing a "huge punch in Paris" either.



I came here to say this:

Compared to what? They pack more punch than cantrips or a resourceless sword-and-shield Paladin, less punch than an Action Surging Fighter. But if the monk is out of ki then the Fighter probably used up Action Surge a long time ago, and Paladins can't regain spell slots just by meditating for an hour.

But then I realized that ThunderousMojo just said it better.

Yeah, I just don't get what people are hoping to get out of that "Monk without ki" comparison, because a Monk without ki is *still* awesome.

As I said on page 2:


At level 14, naked, alone, without racial or subclass powers, and *without* spending any ki point, a Monk can:

- have more AC than a knight in plate armor

- drink a barrel of any poison without being affected. Same with being exposed to any disease.

- kill a Ghost or an Allip in two turns.

- run 110ft in a turn, including on water or on a sheer vertical surface.

- nullify the average damage of such a 200ft fall (or more than half the *maximum* damage of such a fall).

- punch (or headbut, or chew) through a solide adamantine door in two turns (as a conservative average).

- have at minimum 50% chances of succeeding any save with a DC of 14 (if using the standard stat array or point but).

- deflect and be 100% unarmed by a ballista bolt fired at them (assuming the bolt's damage is average, the Monk wouldn't even have to roll) or a rock thrown by an Hill Giant (assuming average rolls on both side).

- understand and be understood by any sapient being with a language

- endure and survive the breath of an Ancient Blue Dragon, even if the breath did max damage.


That's at lvl 14. Without spending ki. And naked.


And when I said "knight in plate armor", I could also have said "plate-wearing adventurer with a two-handed weapon" or "other DEX-based characters".


Don't-use-any-ressource comparison will favor the Monk against basically all other classes... except maybe Artificier, I haven't done the calculation for this one.

[MrStabby]

LoL.."packing punches"...and knees, and elbows, and head butts are sort of the monks groove. 🃏

This has been asked previously, but why is it in so many theoretical examples is the Monk out of Ki points but the Battlemaster Fighter seemingly always has all 6 of their Maneuvers and all of their Action Surges available?

18 Ki points is a larger number than 6 Maneuvers...is it not?
Disarms, Trips, Shoves...these actions can all be substituted for an attack, and cost no Ki points.

A bonus action disarm might do no damage, but it might stop the special Iron Golem from Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure from using their whip made from cockatrice feathers on the squishy that has low Con saves?

Damage can be important, but protecting the party wizard from being turned to stone is also important.

Taoist philosophy has the concept of Wu-Wei..it roughly means "no action". The idea is one does not use overwhelming force to accomplish one's goals. One waits, one subtlety arranges circumstances, so when one does apply force, that force is maximized.

Monks have a sufficient number of features that don't require Ki points to be effective in many different scenarios...before one considers that Ki points recharge on a Short Rest.

If you are just blowing Ki Points Willy-Nilly, without waiting, or creating, the opportune moment to STRIKE!, then I would argue..the problem is less with the class, and more with the play style.

A Paladin the uses all of their spell slots for smites on a trivial encounter isn't packing a "huge punch in Paris" either.

I mean I get your point, but one thing that might make a difference is that the battlemaster can get through a lot of the day being vaguely adequate without using resources. Bigger weapons, magic weapons, at higher levels more attacks, better feat support all mean that a fighter can conserve resources whilst not being terrible.

There is a gradual trickle away of resources from a monk just to match this level. The monk can ba amazingly good using resources but without they can be a bit of a pitiful option.

[Snails]

Out of curiosity, have you played any other editions of D&D?
(Just trying to gauge your perspective)

The 5e monk non-Ki abilities seem most inspired by the 3e monk, and then secondarily references the 1e monk. So there is definitely an intent to appeal to legacy players in the design.

In 5e Monks and Barbarians, (the classes that have Unarmored Defense), are the one's that need high stats. In 1e & 2e this was Paladins and Rangers. Paladins in 3e were highly attribute dependent.
(So each edition seems to have it's offenders)

Unarmored Defense if designed now would probably not reference a second ability score modifier but would instead be 10 + PB + Dex or Con (for a Barbarian), with periodic AC boosts at certain levels. This would reduce MAD.

I have seen a lot of the Monk in play for 1e/2e/3e. None for 4e, very little for 5e. So there is a degree of theorycrafting, and, perhaps, even bias against the Monk in my opinions. There is much about the 5e Monk I do not like, and while Ki could be a mechanic that leads to a solution, how it is implemented looks too sloppy and uneven to earn my praise.

[MaxWilson]

As long as you are smart about it, no. Mobile is not worth it, especially on a shadow monk. Don't get me wrong, mobile is a great feat on a class that doesn't get great mobility boosts anyway, but on a shadowmonk its... OK. Nothing special. Would rather have +2 wisdom. Or +2 constitution even.

Mobile is good for when you find yourself surrounded and run out of Ki and caught in the light - but as a shadow monk the trick is to avoid that situation.

Then later:


There is a gradual trickle away of resources from a monk just to match this level. The monk can ba amazingly good using resources but without they can be a bit of a pitiful option.

Sure, and wizards can be squishy, if you build them wrong. But they can also be tanky.

Clearly you know how not to be pitiful without spending ki (in your own words, "the trick is to avoid that situation"). So just don't be pitiful.

[Amechra]

I have seen a lot of the Monk in play for 1e/2e/3e. None for 4e, very little for 5e. So there is a degree of theorycrafting, and, perhaps, even bias against the Monk in my opinions. There is much about the 5e Monk I do not like, and while Ki could be a mechanic that leads to a solution, how it is implemented looks too sloppy and uneven to earn my praise.

The Monk in 5e is a very different beast from the Monk in 1e/2e/3e, due to fundamental changes in the basic mechanics of the game. And honestly? Maybe you should actually have experience with a class before you start talking about how it works in high-level play, rather than theorycrafting.

Like, imagine I had seen the 5e Paladin used once, and then went into discussions using my familiarity with the 3e Paladin. That's... not going to be very helpful.

[Snails]

This has been asked previously, but why is it in so many theoretical examples is the Monk out of Ki points but the Battlemaster Fighter seemingly always has all 6 of their Maneuvers and all of their Action Surges available?

18 Ki points is a larger number than 6 Maneuvers...is it not?
Disarms, Trips, Shoves...these actions can all be substituted for an attack, and cost no Ki points.

That is a very fair question, and I would be very interested in opinions of people with practical experience at high level play to sketch this out more concretely.

My off the cuff response is that Battlemaster is not exactly out of tricks with zero Maneuvers and no Action Surge. At Tier 5, we are talking about a character that has 3-4 attacks per round, Str 20, and 4(!) feats to boost his effectiveness -- all with zero special resources to spend. Can someone please enlighten me about how a Ki-less monk comes within a country mile of this?

[Snails]

The Monk in 5e is a very different beast from the Monk in 1e/2e/3e, due to fundamental changes in the basic mechanics of the game. And honestly? Maybe you should actually have experience with a class before you start talking about how it works in high-level play, rather than theorycrafting.

Fair enough. But maybe you could say why fundamental changes make is so very different, eh? Being told I am wrong with concrete information will always be appreciated.

[Amechra]

That is a very fair question, and I would be very interested in opinions of people with practical experience at high level play to sketch this out more concretely.

My off the cuff response is that Battlemaster is not exactly out of tricks with zero Maneuvers and no Action Surge. At Tier 5, we are talking about a character that has 3-4 attacks per round, Str 20, and 4(!) feats to boost his effectiveness -- all with zero special resources to spend. Can someone please enlighten me about how a Ki-less monk comes within a country mile of this?

At 14th level, the Battlemaster has three attacks (four if they took PAM as one of their feats), a fighting style, Str 20, and 2-4 ASIs (depending on whether or not you went with the Custom Lineage rules). You might have your Second Wind left, and maybe 1-2 uses of Indomitable. Bear in mind that it's entirely possible that those feats don't directly help them in a fight because the player grabbed Actor instead (to pull a random example out of my hat).

At 14th level, a Monk that's out of ki has three attacks (which they can't upgrade to four, thanks to already using their bonus action), excellent mobility (a base land speed of 55ft plus the ability to run on water and walls plus near-immunity to falling damage), a bunch of defensive powers (you can shut off Charm/Frightened, you're immune to poison and disease, you can deflect ranged attacks, you have proficiency in all saving throws, and you have Evasion), Dex 20, and 1-2 ASIs (there are valid reasons to be a Variant Human with Mobility or whatever).

And, as someone who played a Drunken Monk at that level... you actually have to be burning ki really quickly in order to run out. I ended up spending 1 ki per turn in most fights (mostly spending it on Flurry of Blows), with some spikes where I felt it was useful to try to force a stun.

[Yakmala]

That is a very fair question, and I would be very interested in opinions of people with practical experience at high level play to sketch this out more concretely.

My off the cuff response is that Battlemaster is not exactly out of tricks with zero Maneuvers and no Action Surge. At Tier 5, we are talking about a character that has 3-4 attacks per round, Str 20, and 4(!) feats to boost his effectiveness -- all with zero special resources to spend. Can someone please enlighten me about how a Ki-less monk comes within a country mile of this?

I've played multiple monks, but only one single class all the way to 20. That was a Long Death Monk. And while I rarely ran out of Ki, here's what he could do at Level 20 with 0 Ki and 0 magic items...


Three attacks per round with fists that do as much damage as a halberd and are considered magical attacks.
Run 70 feet per turn and attack and retreat without provoking opportunity (Variant Human with Mobile feat).
Run across water and up walls, making it even harder for opponents to reach him.
Use his reaction to deflect an average of 30 damage from a ranged weapon attack.
Nullify up to 100 falling damage (I've taken out enemies simply by grappling them and leaping off a cliff).
Avoid AoE damage via evasion (He once withstood 3 meteor storms in a single round without taking damage).
Proficiency in all saving throws and immunity to poison and disease.
Remove fear and charm effects that make it past his saves.
Gain 25 temporary HP every time he reduces a creature to 0 HP.
30' radius Fear as an action.



Of course, being a Level 20 Monk, he was never really out of Ki, since the Level 20 ability Perfect Self gives you 4 ki points when you roll initiative if you are currently at 0 Ki. For a Long Death Monk, that means at least four uses of Mastery of Death, allowing me to avoid dropping to 0 HP four times per fight. That's assuming I even need to use the ability. First they have to damage me. Not easy when I can outrun them, deflect their ranged attacks, avoid their AoE's and make my saves no matter the attribute.

[Thunderous Mojo]

But then I realized that ThunderousMojo just said it better.
LoL, I said it more verbosely, not necessarily "better"


Yeah, I just don't get what people are hoping to get out of that "Monk without ki" comparison, because a Monk without ki is *still* awesome.

As I said on page 2:
Unoriginal, your page 2 post was spot on.


I mean I get your point, but one thing that might make a difference is that the battlemaster can get through a lot of the day being vaguely adequate without using resources.
I don't believe I am understanding your point here. A BM that uses attacks only, and utilizes no resources from their subclass nor the fighter chassis, is still expending Hit Points...most likely. This alone may necessitate a Short Rest. I'm just not seeing how this is more "vaguely adequate" compared to the naked monk.

Bigger weapons, magic weapons,
Bigger weapons translates to 1-2 points of extra damage. In the aggregate this will add up over the life of a character, but for any particular encounter this difference isn't that consequential, in my opinion.

Unlike prior editions Monks are not restricted in the number of Magic Items they use. A Monk can have a Flame Tongue and an Oathbow.

at higher levels more attacks, better feat support all mean that a fighter can conserve resources whilst not being terrible.
At 5th level any Monk can elect to have access to 3 attacks if they spend their Bonus Action. The fighter needs to invest in two weapon fighting, or meet the circumstances to trigger the Heavy Weapon Master feat's Bonus Action attack.

I've DM'ed for 3 monks, once a fighter hits 11th level and gets their Extra Attack(3) feature, it has never appeared to me the Fighter class inherently rockets ahead of the monk, like they activated a nitrous boost.

There is much about the 5e Monk I do not like, and while Ki could be a mechanic that leads to a solution, how it is implemented looks too sloppy and uneven to earn my praise.
I respect that opinion. Flurry of Whiffs was terrible in 3e, and I wish that instead of 5e's Flurry of Blows, monk's just received Extra Attack(3) like Fighters do.
Flurry of Blows could have been a subclass specific ability for Drunken and Open Hand monks. I will say that Focused Aim, has made an immediate impact, in my game.

I suspect that many people that do not like 5e monks, actually would like 4e monks. Ignoring many people's concerns about 4e as a system, the 4e monk was an at will controller...with some very effective and damaging encounter and daily powers.

[Amechra]

Fair enough. But maybe you could say why fundamental changes make is so very different, eh? Being told I am wrong with concrete information will always be appreciated.

Certainly! There are a few changes from 3.X that the Monk really benefits from:

1) The action economy doesn't punish martial characters for trying to move around anymore. In general, the Monk's class features in 5e aren't in a life-or-death fight over the available actions anymore, which is pretty nice.

2) More subtly, what it means to be "MAD" has really changed. Back in the 3.X days, it was the difference between "I solely care about one ability score, and could function pretty well if I had 3s in all other ability scores" (SAD) and "I want to have decent scores 3-4 ability scores" (MAD); on top of that, there was a much larger range for ability scores, meaning that a SAD class could be rocking a 24 in their main ability score while a MAD class was still trying to scrape together some 18s. Compare that to 5e's "I want one maxed-out ability score and two decent ones" (SAD) and "I want one maxed-out ability scores, one other nearly-maxed-out ability score, and one decent one" (MAD), and you can kinda see how the Monk isn't being kicked in the teeth anymore.

3) This is a pretty minor one, but the Stunned condition is kinda-sorta better in 5e that it was in 3e? It still worked kinda the same in 3e (it prevented the person you hit from taking actions and penalized their AC), but it didn't cause the creature to automatically fail Str/Dex saves/contested checks. On top of that, way more creatures were immune to being stunned - looking at you, Constructs, Elementals, Oozes, Plants, and Undead!

Most of the problems with the Monk aren't built into the class itself - they're a side-effect of how some of the combat feats are overtuned, or how module designers don't include magic items suited for Monks.

[MaxWilson]

Fair enough. But maybe you could say why fundamental changes make is so very different, eh? Being told I am wrong with concrete information will always be appreciated.

On phone so just listing one:

Monks are faster than most monsters. Even when you're out of ki, you can cut the damage you take from most monsters in half by just accepting an opportunity attack--the monster won't get a full Multiattack that round, just one attack. This trick alone roughly doubles the amount of damage you will do to the monster(s) before losing X HP, as long as your party has his teamwork.

PAM Fighters including Battlemasters can achieve something similar by Shoving the monster prone but it costs an attack, sometimes more, and doesn't work against Huge or prone-immune monsters, and has trouble with groups.

Hunter Rangers with Escape the Horde and Longstrider are also good at this.



I've DM'ed for 3 monks, once a fighter hits 11th level and gets their Extra Attack(3) feature, it has never appeared to me the Fighter class inherently rockets ahead of the monk, like they activated a nitrous boost.

That fourth attack at level 11 is really significant if the Fighter is spending an attack or two each round to gain advantage via Shove Prone. Three GWM or Sharpshooter attacks at advantage handily beats three regular unarmed strikes. With only two attacks at advantage it's a much closer contest.

Of course most Fighters don't take much advantage of Shoving. It's an advanced tactic. It makes sense that you haven't yet seen it in play.

[Tzun]

That is a very fair question, and I would be very interested in opinions of people with practical experience at high level play to sketch this out more concretely.

My off the cuff response is that Battlemaster is not exactly out of tricks with zero Maneuvers and no Action Surge. At Tier 5, we are talking about a character that has 3-4 attacks per round, Str 20, and 4(!) feats to boost his effectiveness -- all with zero special resources to spend. Can someone please enlighten me about how a Ki-less monk comes within a country mile of this?

Yes this is the issue. Besides maybe a kensei monk, a sharpshooting or PAM GWM fighters with their respective fighting styles with 4+ attacks can go all day out damaging a ki-less monk let alone a monk with ki. These are some of the top offensive feats in the game that fighters, barbs, rangers, and pali have available to them while the monk does not. The thing that base monks excel at which is maneuverability just doesn't do enough for them to make up for this deficiency.

[Schwann145]

Alas I disagree with much of it.
That's fair. If we all agreed, these'd be some pretty boring forums. ;D


How many people die from disease and poison in real life? How many explorers died from spoiled provisions and how many indigenous people in the Western Hemisphere died from novel diseases from Europe? Narratively, immunity from poison and disease is a Ron Burgundy level ability....in San Diego...it's kinda a big deal.
The problem with this line of thinking is that it applies to the Monk and the Monk alone. It's super handy to be immune to the Poison/Disease attack, but these aren't necessarily common. If Poison/Disease is going to be a roleplay challenge, then your immunity does nothing to help the party. Congrats, you survived the plagued food while everyone else died? It's the same reason the Paladin's Aura is always superior to the Monk's Diamond Soul, even when the Monk has +6 to the Paladin's +5.


1e monks could eventually talk to plants and animals, so Tongue of the Sun and Moon isn't quite that. An always active, Tongues spell, that is immune to Counterspell, Dispel Magic, and Anti-Magic fields, is in my judgement at least equivalent to a 4th level spell.

In adventures that feature interplanar or interplanetary travel, Tongues of the Sun and Moon is very useful. In AD&D any high Intelligence character could be a polyglot. In 5e one typically has to prioritize languages through race, class, and background. Some campaigns might allow a PC to learn a language through training, many don't, or the opportunity never arises.

Any 13th level monk can talk to reclusive Kuo-Toa Monitors in a subterranean sea at the center of the world, and then talk to Neogi Slavers on a Spelljammer vessel they were teleported to.
Language as a barrier is a DM tool, and it will be solved regardless. The Monk having the mcguffin built-in just saves the DM from needing to introduce one. (I also struggle to envision a Counterspell, Dispel Magic, or AMF used on a Tongues spell. I've never met the DM who wants to play it that hardcore. Maybe you're the exception to that rule?)


Skirmishing is the name of the game, period, in 5e. A Red Abishai that hits with every attack, and does average damage kills a 20th level fighter with max hit points in approximately 3.4 rounds. Battleships are no longer active Ships of the Line for a reason...slugfests cost too much.

Same is true for 5e.

Even against an AC 26 Fighter, the Red Abishai is doing around 52 points of damage a round. This is a "standard" Devil...and once you are discussing CR 19 creatures.and high level PCs..one shouldn't just assume "standard" stats..."standard" is just the starting point.
Someone has to tank those hits and it's certainly better for that to be the Barbarian/Druid/Fighter/Paladin than the Monk!
To successfully skirmish you have to be able to reliably begin and end your turn outside of your foe's reach (unless the foe is exceptionally stupid and hyper-focuses on chasing you). That means, for most fights, you need to both be level 17 and have the Mobile feat or burn Ki on Step of the Wind every single turn. (This, by the by, is one of the ways Monks end up burning through their Ki so fast compared to other class's resources. It's why it's fair to say that Monks want to Short Rest way more often than others [save maybe Warlocks], even though everyone benefits from Short Rests.)
Without that as a baseline, you must have someone who can tank the hits (preferably someone who can stop it's movement too, like with Sentinel), because if you don't, you will.

You're not wrong that skirmishing is the strategy for 5e, but everyone needs help to successfully pull it off, the Monk included. The Monk just needs less help.


Also the monk's mobility isn't limited to solely the battlefield.

Exploration is the third rail of D&D.
True, and I did give Monks the credit of being one of the mobility classes, I just place them rather low on that totem pole. Classes that have better mobility (and exploration potential) than the Monk:
Rogue
Paladin
Druid
Wizard
Sorcerer
Chain Pact Warlock
Sometimes Cleric
Sometimes Bard
Arguably Rangers (though it's iffy and certainly not in combat)

[Snails]

Thanks everyone, you have given me some things to chew on.


...I wish that instead of 5e's Flurry of Blows, monk's just received Extra Attack(3) like Fighters do.
Flurry of Blows could have been a subclass specific ability for Drunken and Open Hand monks. I will say that Focused Aim, has made an immediate impact, in my game.

You are putting your finger on the kinds of things about the Monk class design that annoy me.

The Monk is a fighter-y class that throws lots of non-huge hits. Why have a new mechanic that drains Ki? Just use a Fighter extra attack progression. The Monk is a fighter-y class that can dig down to put out extra effort. Why not just give it Action Surge just like a Fighter? These are very generic fighter-y things that do not need new mechanics.

The Monk is mobile and agile. Just give the Monk a re-skinned Cunning Action without getting Ki involved. This is a very generic clever/acrobatic thing that does not need a new mechanic.

The Monk's calling card is Stunning Strike. Is there any need to involve Ki here at all? Just allow one Stunning Strike attempt per round, and make the cost zero. (The potential for 5 Stunning Strikes in a round is "interesting" but it is weird and Action Economy bending and fussy, in a way that is not a good thing IMO. The base class does not need this, but it might be okay for a path.)

Ki should be for very significant Monk-y things, which I prefer to see as path specific.

I like seeing Ki for stuff like: additional attacks from "a subclass specific ability for Drunken and Open Hand monk", or Dimension Door, or PwaT (because giving the benefit to allies should cost something), or Fangs of Fire Snake.

That said, using a Ki for Diamond Soul does work for me. Using Ki to gain resistance as part of Empty Body works for me, but I would be perfectly happy to let the high level Monk turn invisible without any Ki.

[Mith]

Thanks everyone, you have given me some things to chew on.



You are putting your finger on the kinds of things about the Monk class design that annoy me.

The Monk is a fighter-y class that throws lots of non-huge hits. Why have a new mechanic that drains Ki? Just use a Fighter extra attack progression. The Monk is a fighter-y class that can dig down to put out extra effort. Why not just give it Action Surge just like a Fighter? These are very generic fighter-y things that do not need new mechanics.

The Monk is mobile and agile. Just give the Monk a re-skinned Cunning Action without getting Ki involved. This is a very generic clever/acrobatic thing that does not need a new mechanic.

The Monk's calling card is Stunning Strike. Is there any need to involve Ki here at all? Just allow one Stunning Strike attempt per round, and make the cost zero. (The potential for 5 Stunning Strikes in a round is "interesting" but it is weird and Action Economy bending and fussy, in a way that is not a good thing IMO. The base class does not need this, but it might be okay for a path.)

Ki should be for very significant Monk-y things, which I prefer to see as path specific.

I like seeing Ki for stuff like: additional attacks from "a subclass specific ability for Drunken and Open Hand monk", or Dimension Door, or PwaT (because giving the benefit to allies should cost something), or Fangs of Fire Snake.

That said, using a Ki for Diamond Soul does work for me. Using Ki to gain resistance as part of Empty Body works for me, but I would be perfectly happy to let the high level Monk turn invisible without any Ki.

I like this train of thought.

This makes it much more of a synthesis of the Rogue and the Fighter. Stunning Strike (basically chi blocking) would be akin to Sneak Attack once a round attempt. You then have Flurry of blows for 'more attempts' similar to how Rogues may use dual wielding for more attempts at Sneak attack. The rest fits on the Fighter's chassis, with Ki then fueling spell like abilities for most traditions, or becoming something 'more' (Open Hand upgrades 'Stunning Strike' to "Quivering Palm' for example).

Probably would have the monks with more spell caster style to have 1/2 cantrips so that they can always do their 'thing' even with no resources.

[Witty Username]

LoL.."packing punches"...and knees, and elbows, and head butts are sort of the monks groove. 🃏

This has been asked previously, but why is it in so many theoretical examples is the Monk out of Ki points but the Battlemaster Fighter seemingly always has all 6 of their Maneuvers and all of their Action Surges available?

18 Ki points is a larger number than 6 Maneuvers...is it not?
Disarms, Trips, Shoves...these actions can all be substituted for an attack, and cost no Ki points.

A bonus action disarm might do no damage, but it might stop the special Iron Golem from Mordenkainen's Fantastic Adventure from using their whip made from cockatrice feathers on the squishy that has low Con saves?

Damage can be important, but protecting the party wizard from being turned to stone is also important.

Taoist philosophy has the concept of Wu-Wei..it roughly means "no action". The idea is one does not use overwhelming force to accomplish one's goals. One waits, one subtlety arranges circumstances, so when one does apply force, that force is maximized.

Monks have a sufficient number of features that don't require Ki points to be effective in many different scenarios...before one considers that Ki points recharge on a Short Rest.

If you are just blowing Ki Points Willy-Nilly, without waiting, or creating, the opportune moment to STRIKE!, then I would argue..the problem is less with the class, and more with the play style.

A Paladin the uses all of their spell slots for smites on a trivial encounter isn't packing a "huge punch in Paris" either.



I came here to say this:

Compared to what? They pack more punch than cantrips or a resourceless sword-and-shield Paladin, less punch than an Action Surging Fighter. But if the monk is out of ki then the Fighter probably used up Action Surge a long time ago, and Paladins can't regain spell slots just by meditating for an hour.

But then I realized that ThunderousMojo just said it better.
Just want to quick check that my math is accurate:
damage check level 20, no resources assuming equal accuracy


monk
1d10+5 *3
avg 32.5


paladin w/sword and shield
2d8+5 * 2
avg 28 damage


paladin w/ pam using quarterstaff instead of sword
(1d6+1d8+5) *2 +1d4+1d8+5
avg 38 damage


fighter w/ sword and shield
1d8+5 *4
avg 39 damage


fighter w/ greatsword
2d6+5 * 4
avg 48 damage


warlock using eldritch blast
1d10+5 * 4
avg 42 damage


booming blade w/ dagger
1d4+5 +3d8
avg 22 damage


booming blade w/ dagger procs secondary damage
1d4+5 +7d8
avg 39 damage



From this you are somewhat correct, Monk out damages sword and shield paladin. However, the fighter is looking fine without action surge. A paladin with even slight leaning in a more damage focused direction is looking fine as well. And cantrips may need some qualifiers like no secondary damage and warlocks need not apply. Also, looking at those numbers bladesingers probably out damage monk but I think I would be more upset if they didn't.
Edit: In bold so I remember this mistake

[Unoriginal]

Just want to quick check that my math is accurate:
damage check level 20, no resources assuming equal accuracy


monk
1d10+5 *3
avg 32.5


paladin w/sword and shield
2d8+5 * 2
avg 28 damage


paladin w/ pam using quarterstaff instead of sword
1d6+1d8+5 *2 +1d4+1d8+5
avg 38 damage


fighter w/ sword and shield
1d8+5 *4
avg 39 damage


fighter w/ greatsword
2d6+5 * 4
avg 48 damage


warlock using eldritch blast
1d10+5 * 4
avg 42 damage


booming blade w/ dagger
1d4+5 +3d8
avg 22 damage


booming blade w/ dagger procs secondary damage
1d4+5 +7d8
avg 39 damage



From this you are somewhat correct, Monk out damages sword and shield paladin. However, the fighter is looking fine without action surge. A paladin with even slight leaning in a more damage focused direction is looking fine as well. And cantrips may need some qualifiers like no secondary damage and warlocks need not apply. Also, looking at those numbers bladesingers probably out damage monk but I think I would be more upset if they didn't.

Your calculation's factors are biased against the monks, though:

1)Monks, Paladins, Fighter and Warlock get several attacks, while the Booming Blade Wizard got one, meaning that the Wizard is greatly advantaged by the assumption that 100% of the attacks hit. A Paladin missing once and succeeding another can still deal 50% of that damage. A Wizard missing once get 0 damage.

If you want relevant numbers, you should try calculating over three rounds, against a given AC, making being able do to more attacks matters.

2) A Paladin selecting the feat for it can deal more damage than the no-feat Monk. Why is not the 1-feat-for-more-damage Paladin compared to a Monk who also got the 1-feat-for-more-damage deal?

3) Fighters are great at fighting, that's kinda a given in any half-decently-made edition of the game. No one is questioning that the Fighter is the better damage-dealer here. But a ki-less Monk still has more features to do things, beside dealing damage, so *only* comparing the damages doesn't show the Monk's efficiency.

4) Even with those factors against it, according to your calculation the ki-less, no feat Monk still deals 67% of the the greatsword Fighter's damage, and 85% of the PAM Paladin's. So if anything your calculation is showing the baseline Monk to be great at damage dealing.


Also the Bladesinger is a subclass, so if you want to compare it to a Monk the Monk needs a subclass too.

[[Minor, but still noticeable: Warlocks need an Invocation do to that much damage. Granted it's not a huge cost and most Warlocks do take it, but it's still a choice to make more damage.]]

[Thunderous Mojo]

That fourth attack at level 11 is really significant if the Fighter is spending an attack or two each round to gain advantage via Shove Prone. Three GWM or Sharpshooter attacks at advantage handily beats three regular unarmed strikes. With only two attacks at advantage it's a much closer contest.

Of course most Fighters don't take much advantage of Shoving. It's an advanced tactic. It makes sense that you haven't yet seen it in play.
All of the above is absolutely true. One issue I find that occurs often in discussions regarding the differences between classes, is at some point the discussion narrows to focus on something more akin to PvP, instead of viewing how the classes might utilize their features to build group synergy.

To survive challenging games, requires teamwork, (for discussion sake, let's ignore Simulacrum/Wish/ Planar Binding..one player teams 😉). A monk in a party with GWM or Sharpshooter fighter should be willing to sacrifice their DPR, to serve up prone foes for their Striker build companions so the strikers get the most out of their high DPR build. Ultimately the party that works as the team lives.

Open Hand monks can be quite good at this as they can knock a creature prone by forcing a Dex Save. Abilities like a Psi Warrior's Telekinetic Thrust rely upon STR saves which can be too easily foiled by strong creatures. For a fighter to reliably knock foes prone one does need a shove attack, and possibly the Skilled: Athletics feat.

This is a bit of a stretch, but if a DM will allow the Open Hand Flurry of Blows features to trigger off shove attacks then an Open Hand Monk becomes a mobile sous chef of death...serving up foes on a platter for their comrades to carve up.

If this interpretation is not allowed, alternating between Open Hand Attacks mixed with Shove attacks can still largely accomplish the same effect.

Being a versatile "midfielder" that gives key support to both offense and defense, and helps the team to win can be more enjoyable..then maxing DPR for solo glory.

That's fair. If we all agreed, these'd be some pretty boring forums. ;D
Well Said!

Congrats, you survived the plagued food while everyone else died?
From my perspective the ability's main function is conservation of group resources. At a certain point Monks won't need anti venom nor purification from disease, which means that such resources can be diverted either to other team members, or dispensed with altogether if the party as a whole has immunity. Monks are certainly not the only characters to gain immunity to disease or poison.

Language as a barrier is a DM tool, and it will be solved regardless. The Monk having the mcguffin built-in just saves the DM from needing to introduce one. (I also struggle to envision a Counterspell, Dispel Magic, or AMF used on a Tongues spell. I've never met the DM who wants to play it that hardcore. Maybe you're the exception to that rule?)
Yeah, this is the case of different game styles. I'm a "simulationist" in that I want to see the results of the game rules play out in the internal logic of the fictional world.
This also includes player choices, especially at high levels.
If the group has no means to speak with particular creatures, there most likely is not going to be mcguffin built in to "save you".

Shoves, even knocking a creature prone, can be sufficient to disengage, without spending Ki points. A Shadow Monk's Darkness power also negates many things including OAs. Hit Points can vary depending upon wether a set amount is gained per level or if rolled hit points are used. I've seen a 1st time player of D&D roll up a Wizard, place an 18 into INT, put their other 18 into Con, bump their Con to 20 with their 4th level ASI, and they rolled Maximum Hit Points on each level up, until 8th level.

Fortune favors fools, little children, ships named Enterprise, and 1st time players of Dungeons and Dragons.

Paladins are not the only characters to access mounts. Hippogrifs, griffins, making friends with a flock of giant eagles....if a group is willing to spend time and resources to acquire mounts, then they will.

I will leave it there, as my cuppeth does not runneth over in regards to 5e's Mounted Combat rules. Mounted Disengage spam, means horses must die first.

[Witty Username]

Your calculation's factors are biased against the monks, though:

1)Monks, Paladins, Fighter and Warlock get several attacks, while the Booming Blade Wizard got one, meaning that the Wizard is greatly advantaged by the assumption that 100% of the attacks hit. A Paladin missing once and succeeding another can still deal 50% of that damage. A Wizard missing once get 0 damage.

If you want relevant numbers, you should try calculating over three rounds, against a given AC, making being able do to more attacks matters.

2) A Paladin selecting the feat for it can deal more damage than the no-feat Monk. Why is not the 1-feat-for-more-damage Paladin compared to a Monk who also got the 1-feat-for-more-damage deal?

3) Fighters are great at fighting, that's kinda a given in any half-decently-made edition of the game. No one is questioning that the Fighter is the better damage-dealer here. But a ki-less Monk still has more features to do things, beside dealing damage, so *only* comparing the damages doesn't show the Monk's efficiency.

4) Even with those factors against it, according to your calculation the ki-less, no feat Monk still deals 67% of the the greatsword Fighter's damage, and 85% of the PAM Paladin's. So if anything your calculation is showing the baseline Monk to be great at damage dealing.


Also the Bladesinger is a subclass, so if you want to compare it to a Monk the Monk needs a subclass too.

[[Minor, but still noticeable: Warlocks need an Invocation do to that much damage. Granted it's not a huge cost and most Warlocks do take it, but it's still a choice to make more damage.]]
1.) Unless the chance to hit is different, the average damage won't change between number of attacks, Or to show some math
.6(1d10) +.6(1d10) = .6(1d10+1d10) = .6(2d10). Now you are less likely as a monk to deal no damage and less likely to deal best damage but the average won't change. ditto with over 3 rounds, unless something changes between rounds to change damage or accuracy. the average damage per round would be the same.
2.) A few points, One paladin has more freedom with its ASI's (they benefit but do not require 20 cha while a monk doesn't have that freedom with wis), two PAM is a strong selection generally that is easy to justify, and three I am not aware of many feats that monks can use to improve there damage(but if you have a suggestion I am open to it).
3.)Fighters have athletics along with strength investment, three attacks at 11th level for grapple and shove attempts while still having a respectable AC.
4.)I think that depends on where you put the line, and how you factor the cost benefits.

Point understood with the bladesinger, that was part of the reason it wasn't on the table.
But In the spirit I will make a note of all the monk subclasses that provide a no resource damage increase to its attack line...


shadow gets opportunist
1d10+5 * 4
avg 36 damage


Kensei gets unerring accuracy, So Now it can reroll its first miss. I am now considering conceding this point simply because I do not want to have to factor in this one. The short version is that it is the same as calculating accuracy with advantage(but it isn't advantage and given how it reads does it stack with advantage?) if 60% chance to hit or .6 your new accuracy is 1 -(1-.6)(1- 6) = .84 or 84%.
assuming calc a .6 accuracy it would be something like .84(1d10+5) +.6(2d10+10) = avg 21.42 damage.
and fighter w/ greatsword would be .6(48) = avg 28.8 damage.
and straight monk would be avg 19.5 damage.
so like a 2 point avg damage increase, If you think you can find a more favorable accuracy for the kensei have fun.

[HPisBS]

2) A Paladin selecting the feat for it can deal more damage than the no-feat Monk. Why is not the 1-feat-for-more-damage Paladin compared to a Monk who also got the 1-feat-for-more-damage deal?

Monks are considered to be more MAD. Paladin players (in my limited experience) tend to be more willing to delay / sacrifice either Str or Cha in order to get a feat or two of their choice. The functions of their primary stats (attacks and damage vs spells and auras) are separate enough that they can comfortably focus on only one. Monks' primary stats, however, are much more intertwined.


3) Fighters are great at fighting, that's kinda a given in any half-decently-made edition of the game. No one is questioning that the Fighter is the better damage-dealer here. But a ki-less Monk still has more features to do things, beside dealing damage, so *only* comparing the damages doesn't show the Monk's efficiency.

Certainly. But damage is the most visible and easily quantifiable factor. And it's fairly inevitable that players will be comparing that themselves as they play, too.


Also the Bladesinger is a subclass, so if you want to compare it to a Monk the Monk needs a subclass too.

That subclass, I assume, was chosen simply because it's the all-in-one gish.



To survive challenging games, especially at high level, requires teamwork. A monk in a party with GWM or Sharpshooter fighter should be willing to sacrifice their DPR, to serve up prone foes for their Striker build companions to get the most out of their high DPR build. Ultimately the party that works as the team lives.

Certainly. It's natural to expect different roles be filled by different classes. We tend not to compare a Wizard's blasting against a Bard's. (At least, not without the explicit caveat that the Bard is better geared for support.)

With that in mind, perhaps part of the issue is that the Monk chassis is simply misleading? Perhaps having 3-4 attacks / turn alongside steadily increasing damage dice gives the impression that damage should be the - or at least a - focus? And perhaps all of the disparate, relatively minor and/or situational features Monks have baked in simply don't make a very strong impression on their own - regardless of their potential impact?


... Abilities like a Psi Warrior's Telekinetic Thrust rely upon STR saves which can be too easily foiled by strong creatures. For a fighter to reliably knock foes prone one does need a shove attack, and possibly the Skilled: Athletics feat.

Sure, but the difference is that the fighter who wants to shove is actually incentivized to pump Str, unlike a Monk.

[Witty Username]

That subclass, I assume, was chosen simply because it's the all-in-one gish.


Kinda, I choose it as bladesinger and EK probably have the highest damage of cast cantrip people (that don't use eldritch blast), and I dropped EK because I already covered fighter.

[Thunderous Mojo]

With that in mind, perhaps part of the issue is that the Monk chassis is simply misleading?
We are 6 years into 5e, and I think enough "let's discuss the Monk class" threads have been created, that information is available to dispel "monk myths".

I only joined this message board last October, but I was a voiceless apparition on this board when the Treantmonk "Monk's Suck" video engendered an interesting conversation here and across other D&D Discussion venues. My impression of the result of Treantmonk's participation in the thread on this forum, was that TM took a Disengage action, as his assumptions in the video were being soundly refuted.

(Others must not feel the same, based how monks always seem a 'hot topic')

Monks as a class won't appeal to all people. Monks as a class, may be hampered in certain campaigns...(I'm not certain I believe this...I think a player can make a monk that "works" in any campaign...but certainly quite a few people believe the aforementioned assertion to be true...so I am willing to entertain the idea)...
.......monks certainly benefit from rolled stats.

Sure, but the difference is that the fighter who wants to shove is actually incentivized to pump Str, unlike a Monk.
Prioritizing Dexterity and Strength, and aiming for 16 Wisdom is a viable monk build. Low Strength scores, on monks, actually contributes to increased Ki point burn. One can certainly, mitigate the impact of a low strength score on a monk..but that generally means more Ki expenditure. Stunned creatures fail most critical Strength related ability checks/saves.

Also, Gauntlets of Ogre Power are an uncommon item. While it is not guaranteed that one may find a set or two, or be able to purchase a set in a large city...it is an uncommon item, and thus not that difficult to arrange a purchase wether one uses DMG or XGE rules.

Expertise in Athletics also helps monks with modest Strength scores to grapple/shove, and allows those that have more then modest Str to excel at it.

[Unoriginal]

1.) Unless the chance to hit is different, the average damage won't change between number of attacks, Or to show some math
.6(1d10) +.6(1d10) = .6(1d10+1d10) = .6(2d10). Now you are less likely as a monk to deal no damage and less likely to deal best damage but the average won't change. ditto with over 3 rounds, unless something changes between rounds to change damage or accuracy. the average damage per round would be the same.

If there is 60% chances to hit, then over 3 rounds a Monk will (statistically) hit 6 times, and a Wizard with Booming Blade will hit twice. I don't see how that doesn't change the average damage, unless your average damage is calculated to be 60% of the damage, but I don't think that's representative.

60% of the average damage is not the same as the average damage for 60% of the attacks.



2.) A few points, One paladin has more freedom with its ASI's (they benefit but do not require 20 cha while a monk doesn't have that freedom with wis), two PAM is a strong selection generally that is easy to justify, and three I am not aware of many feats that monks can use to improve there damage(but if you have a suggestion I am open to it).

How about Monk with quatterstaff and PAM? You don't have to use the 1d4 strike to get the other benefits, which means you get 3*1d10 attack



3.)Fighters have athletics along with strength investment, three attacks at 11th level for grapple and shove attempts while still having a respectable AC..

Sure, but that doesn't change the Monk gets much more ressourceless perks.

[Schwann145]

Sure, but the difference is that the fighter who wants to shove is actually incentivized to pump Str, unlike a Monk.
I think there's been enough support of Shove as a Monk strategy that the above bears repeating.
Unless you decide to favor Str over Dex or Wis, which seriously disadvantages you via other Dex/Wis-reliant abilities, then you will not be a viable shover as a Monk.
(Magic Items, as always, fix this issue - but they fix every issue and shouldn't be counted on for argument's sake.)


My impression of the result of Treantmonk's participation in the thread on this forum, was that TM took a Disengage action, as his assumptions in the video were being soundly refuted.
I recall many many people vehemently disagreeing with him, as Monk is a very popular class. But I don't recall very much actual refutation happening. I consider myself a fan of the Monk class, but frankly, his math was right, and it is demonstrably a worse-off class than most of it's contemporaries. :\

[MaxWilson]

If there is 60% chances to hit, then over 3 rounds a Monk will (statistically) hit 6 times, and a Wizard with Booming Blade will hit twice. I don't see how that doesn't change the average damage, unless your average damage is calculated to be 60% of the damage, but I don't think that's representative.

60% of the average damage is not the same as the average damage for 60% of the attacks.

Yes, because of crits it's closer to the average damage for 63% of the attacks - - but is that really important? It doesn't matter how many attacks the damage is split into. It does matter for opportunity attacks (one big attack is better) and concentration checks (many small vs one big) but for expected damage calculations it doesn't.


I recall many many people vehemently disagreeing with him, as Monk is a very popular class. But I don't recall very much actual refutation happening.

Really? We must have been involved in different threads. The single most frustrating thing about that thread was how TreantMonk refused to engage with substantive criticism, even though the thread was replete with it. He just skipped any post which pointed out a mistake, which resulted in a lot of people repeating the same points over and over and the thread going nowhere. It was a dumpster fire because of the lack of two-way dialogue, but there was no lack of refutation. What was missing were TreantMonk rebuttals, or failing that acknowledgements and a change of mind.

The thread is here for those who are interested: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?616588-Treatmonk-on-Monks-in-5e

Hard to believe it was only six months ago. Feels like years.

[Evaar]

How about Monk with quatterstaff and PAM? You don't have to use the 1d4 strike to get the other benefits, which means you get 3*1d10 attack

I'm sorry, I've read this multiple times and I truly do not understand what you're saying here.

Are you presuming that an enemy is going to provoke an opportunity attack by entering your reach, and counting that as one of the 3 attacks?

[Unoriginal]

I'm sorry, I've read this multiple times and I truly do not understand what you're saying here.

Are you presuming that an enemy is going to provoke an opportunity attack by entering your reach, and counting that as one of the 3 attacks?

No, I'm saying that a Monk can make three attacks with their regular Extra Attack + Martial Arts bonus attack, and still get the opportunity attack from PAM.

The assumption that PAM helps with damage is based on getting the opportunity attack, no?

[MaxWilson]

The assumption that PAM helps with damage is based on getting the opportunity attack, no?

No, in the referenced case ("1d6+1d8+5 *2 +1d4+1d8+5" (38)) , that 20th level paladin was using it for the bonus action attack. Reaction attack was not included.

[Evaar]

No, in the referenced case ("1d6+1d8+5 *2 +1d4+1d8+5" (38)) , that 20th level paladin was using it for the bonus action attack. Reaction attack was not included.

Thanks, this is why I was so confused.

[elyktsorb]

Prioritizing Dexterity and Strength, and aiming for 16 Wisdom is a viable monk build. Low Strength scores, on monks, actually contributes to increased Ki point burn. One can certainly, mitigate the impact of a low strength score on a monk..but that generally means more Ki expenditure. Stunned creatures fail most critical Strength related ability checks/saves.

Also, Gauntlets of Ogre Power are an uncommon item. While it is not guaranteed that one may find a set or two, or be able to purchase a set in a large city...it is an uncommon item, and thus not that difficult to arrange a purchase wether one uses DMG or XGE rules.

Expertise in Athletics also helps monks with modest Strength scores to grapple/shove, and allows those that have more then modest Str to excel at it.

Don't need to do str builds for a monk to shove with Astral Self monk, as all strength checks can be substituted with wisdom modifiers, including shoving, which astral monks can also do at range due to their reach.

[HPisBS]

No, in the referenced case ("1d6+1d8+5 *2 +1d4+1d8+5" (38)) , that 20th level paladin was using it for the bonus action attack. Reaction attack was not included.

Really? Where's that d6 and 3rd d8 coming from?


Don't need to do str builds for a monk to shove with Astral Self monk, as all strength checks can be substituted with wisdom modifiers, including shoving, which astral monks can also do at range due to their reach.

True. But kinda tangential to a class discussion, since that's just 1 subclass out of 9. The 1 which happens to be the most recent and most powerful. And it's the most powerful in part specifically because it mitigates much of the Monk's MADness.

[Schwann145]

Really? Where's that d6 and 3rd d8 coming from?

The d6 is base for the quarterstaff (weird pick for a Paladin, which has access to polearms, but whatevs)
The d4 is the bonus attack from PAM
The d8s are all from Paladin's Improved Divine Smite

[MaxWilson]

Really? Where's that d6 and 3rd d8 coming from?


It's a 20th level PAM Paladin (therefore with Improved Divine Smite) and Str 20:

1d6+1d8+5 *2 +1d4+1d8+5 (38) because

Attack: d6 quarterstaff + d8 Improved Divine Smote + 5 Str
Extra Attack: d6 quarterstaff + d8 Improved Divine Smote + 5 Str
PAM bonus action: d4 quarterstaff + d8 Improved Divine Smote + 5 Str

It wasn't my post but this is obviously what the poster has in mind because it's the only thing that fits the math.

[HPisBS]

Ohhhh. So he'd be one-handing the quarterstaff? Ok....

Should've written it as (1d6+1d8+5)*2 + 1d4+1d8+5

[Schwann145]

Yeah, the more likely and reasonable PAM Paladin expectation would be:
[(1d10+1d8+5)*2] + [1d4+1d8+5] = 42

If you wanted to make fishing for AoOs part of it, make the *2 into a *3 and get 57.

[Unoriginal]

No, in the referenced case ("1d6+1d8+5 *2 +1d4+1d8+5" (38)) , that 20th level paladin was using it for the bonus action attack. Reaction attack was not included.

I see what I didn't get now, sorry about that.

[Witty Username]

The d6 is base for the quarterstaff (weird pick for a Paladin, which has access to polearms, but whatevs)
The d4 is the bonus attack from PAM
The d8s are all from Paladin's Improved Divine Smite

I picked quarterstaff because I was trying to keep it in line with shield use, and it came to mind before spear for some reason.

I apologize for not using proper PEMDAS, I feel like a half page was lost because of that.

[AntiAuthority]

In my ideal game a high level monk would be a character like one punch man, yojiro hanmam or jin taejin, the embodiment of bodily perfection, able to destroy mountains in a single kick. However that would be baaaaiscally impossible to balance lol.

So what IS a high level monk like? What fictional character best fits them? How do they feel in combat? How do they generally do? What is the monk's role at that level?

Actually, I agree with you that the examples you listed (along with Akuma/Gouken from Street Fighter and Kenshiro/Raoh/Toki from Fist of the North Star... The Way of the Astral Self in particular has a lot of similarities with characters from Naruto, with the energy arms and armor) are all examples of what a high level monk would look like, when other high level characters are stopping time, calling up natural disasters like tsunamis, creating pocket dimensions and other such things that would fit into (and exceed) mythologies and other high powered stories.

[Thunderous Mojo]

True. But kinda tangential to a class discussion, since that's just 1 subclass out of 9.
I wouldn't classify bringing up the Astral Monk as "tangential", any more than bringing up the Hexblade in a discussion about the Warlock class, would be.

The 1 which happens to be the most recent and most powerful. And it's the most powerful in part specifically because it mitigates much of the Monk's MADness.
Is the Way of the Astral Monk, "the most powerful monk"?
(I am asking the above as a question, and not as a rhetorical device)

In all earnestness, I haven't given the subclass much thought. Outside of playing an Kalashtar Monk, with the Astral Armor being the true Dream Self of the Quori spirit...the concept doesn't really evoke any other character ideas.

Awakened Astral Self seems underwhelming. By spending 5 Ki points, you get the same benefits as normally cost only 2 Ki Points. The Extra 3 Ki points spent grant another Extra Attack, and a +2 to AC. (Is it worth it?)

Not only is this ability expensive, but I'm not confident it is more impactful than a Shadowmonk using Opportunist to make an Reaction Attack with Stunning Strike.

Admittedly, I have had a preternatural love of the Silence spell since AD&D. Preventing sound from traveling, prevents "Aggro-ing the Dungeon".

I've not played a monk in 5e, and alas no-one has played a 'shadow dancer' of the three monks I've DM'd for...but Way of Shadow seems better, overall to me, and much easier to envision making a multitude of characters out of.

I would love to read why people think the Way of the Astral Self is "da best".

[MaxWilson]

I wouldn't classify bringing up the Astral Monk as "tangential", any more than bringing up the Hexblade in a discussion about the Warlock class, would be.

Is the Way of the Astral Monk, "the most powerful monk"?
(I am asking the above as a question, and not as a rhetorical device)

In all earnestness, I haven't given the subclass much thought. Outside of playing an Kalashtar Monk, with the Astral Armor being the true Dream Self of the Quori spirit...the concept doesn't really evoke any other character ideas.

Awakened Astral Self seems underwhelming. By spending 5 Ki points, you get the same benefits as normally cost only 2 Ki Points. The Extra 3 Ki points spent grant another Extra Attack, and a +2 to AC. (Is it worth it?)

Not only is this ability expensive, but I'm not confident it is more impactful than a Shadowmonk using Opportunist to make an Reaction Attack with Stunning Strike.

Admittedly, I have had a preternatural love of the Silence spell since AD&D. Preventing sound from traveling, prevents "Aggro-ing the Dungeon".

I've not played a monk in 5e, and alas no-one has played a 'shadow dancer' of the three monks I've DM'd for...but Way of Shadow seems better, overall to me, and much easier to envision making a multitude of characters out of.

I would love to read why people think the Way of the Astral Self is "da best".

It's not the best. It's okay, but if you're using Tasha's rules I'd rather be playing a Sharpshooter Kensei if I wanted DPR, or Shadow Monk if I wanted to be a mage killer (with Ki Fueled Strikes you can Silence and Stunning Strike in the same round, plus Stunning Strike on your opportunity attack if they try to move away!), or Long Death if I wanted to be unkillable, or Elemonk if I wanted to be a horde breaker. Tasha's managed to make Astral Monk look less lame than I originally thought in UA (something about that picture makes the astral arms seem more reasonable), but it's still not outstanding. At 17th level you're doing 6d10+25 (58) damage when you Flurry, and a Fighter 1/Kensei 11 with a sling or bow is doing 4d8+54 (72) for the same amount of ki and about the same to-hit (Archery + Sharpen the Blade offsets Sharpshooter's -5 to hit) AT RANGE, and monks excel at winning archery duels so ranged DPR is really fun for them.

I don't love Opportunist, but it's okay as a fringe benefit for being a Shadow Monk, if you're willing to stay in melee instead of kiting. Astral Monk has slightly better DPR and can get its extra attack while still kiting and can still use its reaction for e.g. Defensive Duelist (max Wisdom, leave Dex at 16ish, take Defensive Duelist and two to three other feats?). I think you could make a case for Astral Monk being the best at punching--but Sharpshooter Kensei with Ki Fueled Strikes is better at damage, although not quite as good as a Fighter (which is okay since Kensei can still compete with that Fighter in other ways e.g. mobility, arrow catching, Stunning Strike).

[KorvinStarmast]

We are 6 years into 5e{snip}
Monks as a class won't appeal to all people. Monks as a class, may be hampered in certain campaigns...(I'm not certain I believe this...I think a player can make a monk that "works" in any campaign...but certainly quite a few people believe the aforementioned assertion to be true...so I am willing to entertain the idea)...
.......monks certainly benefit from rolled stats. If I am in a three person group, I won't pick monk unless both of the other characters have Stealth proficiency. As a group we'll need to be careful due to action economy ... if I am in a five person group, I think Monk is a fantastic fifth party member.


Also, Gauntlets of Ogre Power are an uncommon item. So are Rings of Jumping. Have you seen my vHuman Monk Boing Boing concept? :smallbiggrin: It includes a feat that grants expertise (Athletics), Ogre Gaunts, Ring of Jumping, and maxing Wis and Dex. (While I prefer to max Wis First, I can see maxing dex first also since "you can't stun what you don't hit" raises its ugly head. The last attuned item would be a cloak of displacement for the perfect Monk Boing Boing. You can do a different version with proficient Athletics and Mobile, though, and the same items if you can find them or get them crafted.

The single most frustrating thing about that thread was how TreantMonk refused to engage with substantive criticism, even though the thread was replete with it. Yep. My take was "shilling for my youtube channel" was the purpose of visiting. If I'm wrong, I apologize to TM.

[MaxWilson]

Yep. My take was "shilling for my youtube channel" was the purpose of visiting. If I'm wrong, I apologize to TM.

My take was slightly different: I feel like TreantMonk was there to defend himself from perceived accusations of being a bad person--but nobody else on the thread wanted to talk about whether TreantMonk was a good person or not, they were there to talk about whether what he said was actually true, and he wasn't interested in that.

I do feel like "shilling for my youtube channel" was his reason for making the video in the first place, but not for visiting these forums.

[BoutsofInsanity]

Something to remember among all of this are the following.


Monks are not fighters and shouldn't fight as well as them
Different campaigns have different needs and an all combat campaign requires a different monk than a political one
DM dependent is a thing - The campaign will inform largely how effective a Monk is.


Monks are fine at nearly all levels of the game. The issue is that it depends on the game being played. A monk should lose in a straight fight with the fighter and barbarian or a high tier demon. That's not their wheelhouse.

But picture this scenario.

The party has pissed off some evil organization and they hired an assassin to take out the parties Wizard. So as the party engages in some downtime activity the enemy assassin from 600 feet away sharp shoots the Wizard for 2d8 (Longbow) +14d6 (7 Sneak attack crit dice)+6d6 (Poison) + 15 damage. Not enough to kill the Wizard outright, but enough to drop him to zero. The Assassin can come back later in the day to finish him off. But the Monk immediately takes off in the direction of the Assassin. Step of the Wind - 150 feet per round can get there in 24 seconds. The Assassin (If played correctly) had to book it. Left behind his longbow and is currently doing the Assassin's Creed thing. So the monk quickly makes a perception check or survival to tail him. That's based on Wisdom which the Monk should be good at. If DM'ed correctly the monk should at least have a few opportunities to make the assassin and engage. If he doesn't then he doesn't. But if they get into a fight the assassin is screwed. He can't outrun the Monk, hiding is going to be very difficult. And fighting the monk as a dexterity based character is a fools errand.

If scenario's like the above don't come into play in campaigns. If monsters only ever engage on the front lines the monk will never get to do cool stuff and should have rolled a fighter. But if the enemies are doing tactics, and extra nonsense, then the Monk will shine a lot more.

The Monk is proficient in all saves, can end effects on himself, has evasion and a bonkers move speed. Wisdom based skills, targets con, decent damage, anti-ranged abilities AND can specialize into

A more fighting style with extra condition appliers
A controller who can't die and makes the enemy make fear saves
A highly skilled scout and infiltrator with consistent (Every Short Rest) Pass without trace, darkness, and silence



All their abilities recharge on a short rest.

The monks more than any other class benefit from a wide array of campaign options. If the DM isn't maximizing the amount of different events and scenarios within the campaign the Monk will suffer for it. They are uniquely situated to deal with all manner of nonsense within a game.

Monks are a(n)...

B Fighter class
B+ Stealth Class
B insight / diplomacy class
A+ if you subscribe to alternate ability checks and skills
A defensive class
B scout class



If provided the opportunity the Monk in high level games can do a lot of things and never not be useful. They can stun, they can off tank, they can chase down elusive targets, participate in skill checks depending on their specs, do some controlling, they do decent damage, recharge on a short rest.

What they can't do is stand toe to toe with a monster and hammer it out like a fighter or barbarian. Understanding those weaknesses and having a DM not do every encounter in a white room 60x60 makes a lot of difference.

[HPisBS]

It's not the best. It's okay, but if you're using Tasha's rules I'd rather be playing a...

I suspect that this is, in part, another example of different perspectives due to mostly playing with rolled stats vs with point buy / standard array.

Substituting Wis for Str (and Dex attacks / dmg) goes a long way in making Monks less MAD, which is pretty major when your highest stats have to be a 15, 14, and 13 before racial bonuses. You seem to expect a Monk to be able to afford feats, and this subclass can make taking feats hurt a lot less for standard array / point buy players.

All of that means you can pump Wis and more effectively do the whole shove and grapple thing, with or without expertise in athletics. As fond as you are of those tactics, I'd think you'd rate that more highly.



Tasha's managed to make Astral Monk look less lame than I originally thought in UA...

Now, to be clear, I'm not saying Astral Self is the coolest, or evokes many more character concepts than just those two Naruto characters. Just that reading its features still elicits a "Really? They get to do that?!" response from me.

That's because, in addition to being less reliant on Dex, Astral also gets to make all 3-4 (eventually, 4-5) of his melee attacks from 10 ft away, which of course means no opportunity attacks, nor opportunity costs, to skirmishing when your stun attempts fail.

- Speaking of which, sure, Kensei w/ Sharpshooter can do more damage while there aren't any official feats that would significantly boost Astral's damage. But a Kensei obviously isn't stunning anything while Sharpshooting. Astral is stunning, and from 10 ft away. (And doing it without having to pick up proficiency with whips somehow.)


... Also, Astral Sight will be very helpful depending on the campaign / party.

[Unoriginal]

Astral Monk is nice if you want to focus on WIS, but it's not more powerful than any Monk.

A character concept I would find funny would be an Astral Monk Hill Dwarf with Dwarven Fortitude whose Astral Self is a Dwarf, so you can actively Dwarf your way through adventures.


My take was slightly different: I feel like TreantMonk was there to defend himself from perceived accusations of being a bad person--but nobody else on the thread wanted to talk about whether TreantMonk was a good person or not, they were there to talk about whether what he said was actually true, and he wasn't interested in that.

Why would he think he was accused of being a bad person?

[HPisBS]

Why would he think he was accused of being a bad person?

Many people take criticism personally. They naturally take criticism of their ideas / statements as criticism of them.

Terms like "disingenuous" were also said quite a few times.

[MaxWilson]

I suspect that this is, in part, another example of different perspectives due to mostly playing with rolled stats vs with point buy / standard array.

Substituting Wis for Str (and Dex attacks / dmg) goes a long way in making Monks less MAD, which is pretty major (A) when your highest stats have to be a 15, 14, and 13 before racial bonuses. You seem to expect a Monk to be able to afford feats, and this subclass can make taking feats hurt a lot less for standard array / point buy players.

*snip*

(B) All of that means you can pump Wis and do the whole shove and grapple thing, with or without expertise in athletics. As fond as you are of those tactics, I'd think you'd rate that more highly.

*snip*

(C) Now, to be clear, I'm not saying Astral Self is the coolest, or evokes many more character concepts than just those two Naruto characters. Just that reading its features still elicits a "Really? They get to do that?!" response from me.

That's because, in addition to being less reliant on Dex, Astral also gets to make all 3-4 of his melee attacks from 10 ft away, which of course means no opportunity attacks, nor opportunity costs, to skirmishing when your stun attempts fail.

(D) - Speaking of which, sure, Kensei w/ Sharpshooter can do more damage while there isn't anything official that would significantly boost Astral's damage. But a Sharpshooter obviously isn't stunning anything. Astral is, and from 10 ft away. (Without having to pick up proficiency with whips somehow.)


(A) This remark would make sense for standard array (which I don't mind as much as point buy BTW), but for point buy it's not true. You can get a 15, 15 as easily as 15, 14, 13. You can even go full-bore 15, 15, 15, 8, 8, 8 (which is exactly what I hate most about point buy). Accordingly, from a powergaming perspective, a Dex 20 Wis 16 Fighter 1/Kensei 8 with Sharpshooter is achievable by level 9, and at level 13 you'll have Crossbow Expert online for better endurance (less need for Ki-Fueled Strikes) and melee-range damage as well as having Sharpen the Blade for more DPR. Your AC is better than the corresponding Fighter (Hand Crossbow Fighters have AC 17, Mage Armor can bump it to 18 (shield can bump it to 20 but takes a whole round and prevents using the crossbow); the Kensei has AC 18, can switch instantly to AC 20 just by making a single unarmed attack without needing to spend a whole round equipping a shield first).

A point buy astral monk would be Dex 16 Wis 20 + some feat (or Dex 18, or racial features) instead. Unless that feat is Prodigy (Athletics) or Skill Expert (Athletics) so you can be a grapple monk, it's hard for me to see how switching to Wisdom is helping. It's still pretty MAD.

(B) I'm a fan of using the tactic where it makes sense. I'm not a fan of building around it, certainly not to the extent of devoting a whole subclass to it. For me it's a secondary tactic that happens to be cheap (on certain builds) and often effective (in certain common situations).

(C) Plenty of monsters have 10' reach. You also still spend movement getting into and out of melee distance, which makes it hard to skirmish. Monks aren't actually all that fast, and if you don't have Mobile, even spending 10' of movement to approach can leave you close enough to a monster to be unable to get out of its range + reach. Therefore I wouldn't call that "no opportunity costs". You can sometimes avoid opportunity attacks from some monsters, at the cost of your subclass.

(D) Yep. The Sharpshooter Kensei has to come within melee range to stun, just like anybody else. (Nothing stops him from picking up whip proficiency of course at Kensei 3, so he can skirmish from 10' away just almost as easily as the Astral monk can, just with fewer attacks--which illustrates my point about a subclass being a heavy cost to pay.) Unlike a Sharpshooter Crossbow Expert Fighter who can just shoot crossbow bolts all the time, he's not a pure archer, he has to adapt his tactics to the situation, which sort of goes with the Action Hero theme.

Like you, I'm not saying that Kensei is awesome or the best or better archers than Eldritch Knights or anything like that. (Kenseis are interesting to play--lots of fun decisions to make in combat--but not my favorite kind of monk.) But I honestly don't see what the Astral Monk is bringing to the table except grappling, and IMO grapping is sometimes worth a feat (Prodigy) but not a subclass.


Why would he think he was accused of being a bad person?

It's not really clear why, but he certainly took offense to this post (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?616588-Treatmonk-on-Monks-in-5e/page11&p=24638863#post24638863). Quoting in part:


It's not the opinions that are problematic, it's the incorrect facts, such as claiming that a Tier 1 monk using Patient Defense is no better than tied for third-best class at defense even if the other classes aren't using any resources. You didn't explain your reasoning and I can't replicate your claim--every class I look at has to spend resources to be better than AC 16-17 + disadvantage.

This makes your claim that monks stink look disingenuous. Yes, monks that spend resources are merely comparable defensively to other classes spending defensive resources, but so what? You claimed something else: that monks spending resources are still worse than other classes not spending resources. (And ki is a relatively plentiful resource with a good recharge rate and a good action economy, so spending resources isn't that painful for a monk compared to e.g. a wizard casting Mirror Image.)

It's also suspect when you dismiss Missile Deflection against multiple monsters, or giants throwing boulders, without bothering to look at the math first. Missile Deflection is as valuable as Rage against both types of threats, but it doesn't even cost a resourse. When you dismiss it instead of accounting for it, that's not just a difference of opinion, that's using incorrect facts.

Can we at least both agree that cutting the damage you take from a giant boulder by 50% to 70% is defensively valuable when you're fighting giants?

There's more substantive criticism there, but Treantmonk ignored all of it to focus on what offended him. Quoting in full:



This makes your claim that monks stink look disingenuous.

I would just love to get in your head and see what's going on. If I'm being disingenuous, what do you think is my motive? I'm genuinely curious.

That's the whole post. He completely ignored all of the substantive discussion to change the subject to a discussion of Treantmonk's motives. That was the pattern in all of his posts in that thread, and that is why that discussion went nowhere after Treantmonk showed up.

[Unoriginal]

(B) I'm a fan of using the tactic where it makes sense. I'm not a fan of building around it, certainly not to the extent of devoting a whole subclass to it. For me it's a secondary tactic that happens to be cheap (on certain builds) and often effective (in certain common situations).

I feel like there is a lot of "will always be in the optimal situation" expectations, when people try to optimize a character.

[KorvinStarmast]

Many people take criticism personally. They naturally take criticism of their ideas / statements as criticism of them.
I have watched, since about 2000ish, an steady increase in the number of people on the internet to take disagreement personally. There are two forums that I was on for years that I stopped participating in due to how that attitude had grown.

Hmm: it's a weird version of the ad hom problem. Disagreement is taken as a personal affront (or a basis for presuming bad faith). Another way that it comes off is "there must be something wrong with you if you disagree with me ... and that something wrong is also offensive to me ..."
What is more disorienting in that often, not far away on the same forum, you'll see raw, unadulterated, old school flaming and flame wars.

I'll stop there.

[HPisBS]

snip

That's mostly fair. Though I still think you're underselling the reduced MADness. Pumping your stun chance while simultaneously pumping your to-hit and damage is awesome. That pretty much leaves Dex for just AC and stealth. And while those are obviously still very significant, you can be much more comfortable delaying / sacrificing some AC and stealth than you could AC, stealth, to-hit, and damage. Or than you could AC and ki-saves.

Kensei being able to grab whips is pretty great. Keep in mind though, that you've been holding up a Kensei Sharpshooter (and Crossbow Expert, now? Plus Fighter 1), which necessarily means lower Wis. So, while the Kensei can melee from 10 ft away as well as the Astral, he's not stunning (from 10 ft away) as well as the Astral.

[MaxWilson]

That's mostly fair. Though I still think you're underselling the reduced MADness. Pumping your stun chance while simultaneously pumping your to-hit and damage is awesome. (A) That pretty much leaves Dex for just AC and stealth. (B) And while those are obviously still very significant, you can be much more comfortable delaying / sacrificing some AC and stealth than you could AC, stealth, to-hit, and damage. Or than you could AC and ki-saves.

(C) Kensei being able to grab whips is pretty great. Keep in mind though, that you've been holding up a Kensei Sharpshooter (and Crossbow Expert, now? Plus Fighter 1), which necessarily means lower Wis. So, while the Kensei can melee from 10 ft away as well as the Astral, he's not stunning (from 10 ft away) as well as the Astral.

(A) AC, stealth, acrobatics, lockpicking, pickpocketing, initiative, saves, and ranged attacks.

(B) If you pump Dex instead of Wisdom, e.g. as a Kensei Sharpshooter, you get AC, stealth, initiative, saves, attack and damage both at range and in melee, and you lose out on Stunning Strike DC increases, perception, insight, and Wisdom saves. How is that more painful than an Astral Monk losing stealth, acrobatics, lockpicking, pickpocketing, initiative, saves, and ranged attacks? Looks pretty even to me.

I'm willing to be shown that Astral Monk SADness is a big deal but at far I'm not seeing what you're getting at. Bear in mind that a point buy monk is still going to pump both Dex and Wis to 16 anyway - - you're not actually SAD the way sorlock or fighter is.

(C) Yep. That's the tradeoff.

[dmhelp]

For tashas I think Mercy seems better than Astral. Or maybe I’m over valuing a no save poison condition every turn? I’d rather be more MAD for that.

[Evaar]

For tashas I think Mercy seems better than Astral.

I agree. Hands of Harm is a straight upgrade to Flurry, its a substantial increase to their effective DPR. Then they get to add Poisoned on top of that.

[Thunderous Mojo]

The Astral Monk only rents replacing their Strength Modifer for their Wisdom Modifer. To have Full Astral Arms Coverage, your premium cost is 6 Ki points per hour. You have to spend more KI if you add Visage of the Astral Self.

I generally assume that a power that lasts for 10 minutes, is roughly about 2 encounters...presuming time in between is needed to scout, search for traps and treasure, secret doors etc.

Of course, this is a presumption, so actual results may vary.

In terms of action economy, the Way of the Astral Self has similar issues to the Barbarian class, only monks have more uses for their Bonus Actions. The 10 minute duration, means that an Astral Monk has a better chance to prep in advance, but at some point the monk is going to start combat without their Astral Self up.

Dumping Str, means this monk can't jump. That, admittedly won't matter to some. No monk can truly neglect Dexterity, the sub-class just doesn't seem actually that Single Attribute Dependent.

From a novelty standpoint, one could theoretically Multi-class in Fighter or other class that receives a Fighting Style and take the Unarmed Fighting Style and wear armor. This isn't a great idea, but it might be situationally useful if you had low stats outside Wisdom, and needed the AC boost.

[HPisBS]

The Astral Monk only rents replacing their Strength Modifer for their Wisdom Modifer. To have Full Astral Arms Coverage, your premium cost is 6 Ki points per hour. You have to spend more KI if you add Visage of the Astral Self....

Why do you think that?

"... As a bonus action, you can spend 5 ki points to summon the arms, visage, and body of your astral self and awaken it for 10 minutes...."



... No monk can truly neglect Dexterity, the sub-class just doesn't seem actually that Single Attribute Dependent....

Nothing is without its drawbacks. But actually playing it from lvl 1 up to whatever, an Astral Monk gets to pump his to-hit and damage while also pumping his ki save dc. I notice there's a tendency to discount - or outright overlook - the process of actually reaching those final builds, the experience you'd have at lvl 5, etc. Being less MAD like the Astral is may or may not transform your final build, but you should certainly expect it to change those middle levels, where most actual play seems to occur.

Being able to enjoy the benefits of 20 Wis while also enjoying the primary benefits of 20 Dex (in melee) as early as lvl 8 strikes me as being pretty significant.

[MaxWilson]

Why do you think that?

"... As a bonus action, you can spend 5 ki points to summon the arms, visage, and body of your astral self and awaken it for 10 minutes...."


5 ki for ten minutes is 30 ki per hour. ThunderousMojo was just talking about the arms, 6 ki per hour.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Why do you think that?
"... As a bonus action, you can spend 5 ki points to summon the arms, visage, and body of your astral self and awaken it for 10 minutes...."
That is spending 5 Ki points to get all of the Way of the Astral Hands subclass abilities up for 10 minutes. To access everything but the Capstone subclass power it costs 2 Ki Points for 10 minutes of usage. What is 2 Ki points times 6 segments of 10 minutes increments?

An Astral Monk does not freely substitute Wisdom modifier for the Dex and Str modifier...they have to pay Ki points for 10 minute increments.

What are you claiming the subclass does? I'm confused at what you are intending to say. I would appreciate some clarification...as I am not at all sure what you are stating.


Nothing is without its drawbacks. But actually playing it from lvl 1 up to whatever, an Astral Monk gets to pump his to-hit and damage while also pumping his ki save dc. I notice there's a tendency to discount - or outright overlook - the process of actually reaching those final builds, the experience you'd have at lvl 5, etc. Being less MAD like the Astral is may or may not transform your final build, but you should certainly expect it to change those middle levels, where most actual play seems to occur.
I don't want this to sound snippy, but isn't this just theory? Have you played an Astral Monk from 1st level to 20th level already?

Presuming you haven't, aren't you HPisBS doing exactly what you'd stated when you wrote this: "I notice there's a tendency to discount - or outright overlook - the process of actually reaching those final builds, the experience you'd have at lvl 5, etc".

I will gladly defer to your expertise, if you have played an Astral Monk up to any level. I would love to hear what actual play with the subclass is like, and what the campaign assumptions are.

In my experience, adventuring parties get ambushed from time to time. In my experience, adventuring parties have,(occasionally), time considerations that inhibit them from always being able to take a short rest whenever they want.

Being able to enjoy the benefits of 20 Wis while also enjoying the primary benefits of 20 Dex (in melee) as early as lvl 8 strikes me as being pretty significant.
One can have this with any monk using the Default Stat Array from the PHB. One just needs a +2/+1 race, or be a Vhuman and take an appropriate feat.

It has been a long arduous day, so I want to issue a preemptive Mea Culpa, if this post has any overtones of rudeness. I'm intending to ask for clarification. I appreciate the opportunity for the discussion.🖖

[Witty Username]

Is the Way of the Astral Monk, "the most powerful monk"?
(I am asking the above as a question, and not as a rhetorical device)

I would say no. Astral Monk has a frustration that it is Ki hungry, and its most interesting ability, wis for unarmed strikes and strength checks, is weak when you first get it and it is debatable whether or not it is effective generally, agnostic of your opinions of other monk features. The main grapple plan for monks is stunning strike as I understand it, and the whole point is that the target auto-fails if stunned. Meaning the grapple advantage is for when you are trying to conserve ki, and this ability requires ki. For unarmed strikes, you will need dex investment anyway for your first 2 levels at least, likely more for your off-arm time, and you still probably want at least a 16 for AC purposes, so you end up with the same 20/16 split monks would already have so madness is not really reduced. Visage has minimal combat application, it reads more as utility, which is fine until you get to later levels and realize it gates other combat features behind it. And Awakened Astral self is a gluttonous ability when it comes to ki, it plus empty body is around half your ki pool. if you are committed to using one or the other then you have to decide when it is worth using over empty body(probably when you want the 10 minutes as opposed to 1 is my guess, and if you need your action in the first round of combat for something). There may be something I am missing, but it looks like this doesn't get much until Tier 3 and what you do get doesn't look like it is on par with the other monk sub classes.

[Amechra]

OK, what are you doing in your games where you would have to have your Arms up constantly? You should be fine if you turn them on when you need to lift stuff, and just live with your low Strength otherwise.

[Witty Username]

I think that depends on what you are using the arms for. If you are using them to strong man, lifting gates out of the way, climbing cliffs, etc. then you are probably fine with them off most of the time. If you are using them for combat (I wouldn't recommend it most of the time), probably 1 ki every 1-2 fights depending on your day. If both you may be using a lot of ki over the course of an adventuring day.
What are people's opinion of the aoe damage? My take is that it is probably too low to see significant use.

[Thunderous Mojo]

My largest criticism of the 2x Martial Arts die AoE power is the layout of the subclass power buries the ability in a paragraph of text. I think a few players will skim the book and forget they even have an AoE on the turn they summon the arms.

Beside, this minor objection to the layout of the text...an AoE that:
-does an escalating amount of damage as the character advances in monk levels
-has a 10' range, and only damages creatures you chose.
.... Is a decent ribbon-like ability.

Thematically it might have been interesting to have the AoE be an attack akin to a Hunter Ranger's Whirlwind power...but there would be some power level objections that would probably arise.

The Way of the Astral Self is Amara from Borderlands 3. 😁
https://www.destructoid.com/ul/552326-kiss-these-biceps-goodbye-i-ve-got-dibs-on-amara-in-borderlands-3/AmaraAbs-noscale.jpg
The subclass just lacks phaselock.

A Wildshaped Monk/Druid with the Astral Arms active, would be a frightening sight. One might not even need the 6th level ability of Wisdom of Spirit to get advantage on an Intimidation checks.

I would give an irate squirrel with spectral arms, and a wisdom based bite attack a wide berth, if I saw it at my local park.😀

The wording of the Astral Arms ability doesn't preclude combining the ability with a Barbarian's Rage ability. One still can be making a Strength melee weapon attack, with the arms, to satisfy the Rage requirements, and then substitute their Wisdom modifier per Arms of the Astral self.

[x3n0n]

I think that depends on what you are using the arms for. If you are using them to strong man, lifting gates out of the way, climbing cliffs, etc. then you are probably fine with them off most of the time. If you are using them for combat (I wouldn't recommend it most of the time), probably 1 ki every 1-2 fights depending on your day. If both you may be using a lot of ki over the course of an adventuring day.
What are people's opinion of the aoe damage? My take is that it is probably too low to see significant use.

My impression: Astral Self is weaker than some other Monks at levels 3-4, but it gets a lot better in tier 2. Wis 20 at level 8 makes stun significantly more likely, and the unarmed damage die is not as crappy (and will continue to improve). Mobile/disengage isn't required as often when you have reach and a good shove.

(Stun efficiency differential presumably drops in tier 3 as the other subclasses likely bump Wis.)

The AoE is double-purpose: payback for a potential lost bonus action at the beginning of combat, plus an anti-mob tool against really weak mooks.

I actually think of this as a *less* ki-hungry subclass in combat (in tier 2 and later). Say 1 ki tax per encounter or pair of encounters (tax goes up to 2 in tier 3), for reach and a good shove (fewer Step of the Wind) and fewer failed stuns.

Outside combat, being competent at Athletics is good.

[Witty Username]

My largest criticism of the 2x Martial Arts die AoE power is the layout of the subclass power buries the ability in a paragraph of text. I think a few players will skim the book and forget they even have an AoE on the turn they summon the arms.

Beside, this minor objection to the layout of the text...an AoE that:
-does an escalating amount of damage as the character advances in monk levels
-has a 10' range, and only damages creatures you chose.
.... Is a decent ribbon-like ability.

Thematically it might have been interesting to have the AoE be an attack akin to a Hunter Ranger's Whirlwind power...but there would be some power level objections that would probably arise.

The Way of the Astral Self is Amara from Borderlands 3. 😁
https://www.destructoid.com/ul/552326-kiss-these-biceps-goodbye-i-ve-got-dibs-on-amara-in-borderlands-3/AmaraAbs-noscale.jpg
The subclass just lacks phaselock.

A Wildshaped Monk/Druid with the Astral Arms active, would be a frightening sight. One might not even need the 6th level ability of Wisdom of Spirit to get advantage on an Intimidation checks.

I would give an irate squirrel with spectral arms, and a wisdom based bite attack a wide berth, if I saw it at my local park.😀

The wording of the Astral Arms ability doesn't preclude combining the ability with a Barbarian's Rage ability. One still can be making a Strength melee weapon attack, with the arms, to satisfy the Rage requirements, and then substitute their Wisdom modifier per Arms of the Astral self.
Making a unarmed strike with the arms at each creature in range I think would be about the same(2d4 vs 1d4+3/2d6 vs 1d6+4/2d8 vs 1d8+5). that is about a half point increase but you lose out on half damage on a miss, it might involve more rolling though. There is the stun interaction with that, make of that what you will.

I like the image a lot with the astral squirrel, Monk 1 already is reasonable on a moon druid so this would be 2 more levels in monk for that. I think the benefits are mostly the look though.

I don't think you can combine the arms with the bonus damage of rage and still use your wisdom modifier("attack with a melee weapon using strength"), you could get the advantage on strength checks though if that is what you mean.

My impression: Astral Self is weaker than some other Monks at levels 3-4, but it gets a lot better in tier 2. Wis 20 at level 8 makes stun significantly more likely, and the unarmed damage die is not as crappy (and will continue to improve). Mobile/disengage isn't required as often when you have reach and a good shove.

(Stun efficiency differential presumably drops in tier 3 as the other subclasses likely bump Wis.)

The AoE is double-purpose: payback for a potential lost bonus action at the beginning of combat, plus an anti-mob tool against really weak mooks.

I actually think of this as a *less* ki-hungry subclass in combat (in tier 2 and later). Say 1 ki tax per encounter or pair of encounters (tax goes up to 2 in tier 3), for reach and a good shove (fewer Step of the Wind) and fewer failed stuns.

Outside combat, being competent at Athletics is good.
I think the issue in tier 2 is this is a 5% increase until 8th for a 10% increase on stunning strike success rate, so you are using this when you plan to use stunning strike, essentially investing your first attempt into a 5%/10% increase on your attempts in the rest of the combat. Running the numbers a bit (lets just assume 60% success rate vs 55%/50% for a stun and 60% for hitting with an attack generally). Assuming you are trying to stun the target. astral will bonus action prep and make 2 attacks trying to stun, a normal monk will make 3 attempts (just going to use 60% for the hit rate on attacks). the astral self will have a 36% chance of landing a stun each each attack, about 59% for the attack line. The standard monk will have 33% and 30%, about 70% and 66% respectively. the following rounds astral self will have about a 74% chance.
So about(opposite of not, over the two rounds)1 - (41 * .26) = 89% astral vs 1-(.30^2) = 91%. and 1-(.34^2) = 88% standard monk. This is assuming you are not using flurry either way.

[x3n0n]

I think the issue in tier 2 is this is a 5% increase until 8th for a 10% increase on stunning strike success rate, so you are using this when you plan to use stunning strike, essentially investing your first attempt into a 5%/10% increase on your attempts in the rest of the combat. Running the numbers a bit (lets just assume 60% success rate vs 55%/50% for a stun and 60% for hitting with an attack generally). Assuming you are trying to stun the target. astral will bonus action prep and make 2 attacks trying to stun, a normal monk will make 3 attempts (just going to use 60% for the hit rate on attacks). the astral self will have a 36% chance of landing a stun each each attack, about 59% for the attack line. The standard monk will have 33% and 30%, about 70% and 66% respectively. the following rounds astral self will have about a 74% chance.
So about(opposite of not, over the two rounds)1 - (41 * .26) = 89% astral vs 1-(.30^2) = 91%. and 1-(.34^2) = 88% standard monk. This is assuming you are not using flurry either way.

At a glance, the math looks fine for likelihood of "stun at least once over the first two rounds" being about the same for both and quite high. Note that this calculation is not quite the same as "expected number of ki spent to get first stun". (More stuns per 10 minutes leads to cheaper results for AS, fewer is clearly better for the Monk that doesn't need to bring up the arms.)

My "ki-lite" impression is based more on the other things I mentioned: being able to shove prone or grapple without ki and being able to stay at 10', allowing for "free Disengage" much of the time instead of spending a feat on Mobile or ki on Step of the Wind. That is, when people complain that a Monk who is not spending at least 1 ki every round is "useless", this Monk has more stuff to do in combat without spending ki.

[Thunderous Mojo]

.
I don't think you can combine the arms with the bonus damage of rage and still use your wisdom modifier("attack with a melee weapon using strength"), you could get the advantage on strength checks though if that is what you mean.
A permissive reading of the text that would apply for both a monk's martial arts ability and the Arms of the Astral Self ability, is the type of attack itself does not change, the specific abilities simply allow monks to apply ability score modifiers that normally would not apply.

Any monk wielding a club can use their Dex modifier instead of Str for the particulars of the modifier that is used, but can still claim it is a STR attack. The monk just has greater choices in what ability modifier is used. Monks functionally get Finesse for their melee weapons, without actually applying Finesse.

As I stated, this is a permissive reading. Though, I think it is just permitting fun for an unlikely multi-class combination, (barbarian/monk).