OOTS #1223 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Peat]

That is a fantastic punchline.

[Goblin_Priest]

Blackwing's great, always on point. :P

[RMS Oceanic]

Blackwing being sensible about this

[ArkenBrony]

I saw the comic go up before i got the email about it. I don’t know true seeing well enough but it’s surprising it doesn’t tell this is happening. Good for the order though :)

[Cicciograna]

Flap, flap, flap, flap.

[Dragonus45]

Blackwing is just the best, the pacing feels just a bit slow here after having so long to speculate and work a lot if this out for ourselves but it is nice to get some solid grounding and confirmation of what is going on here.

[Vrock Bait]

Nice to see exactly were Roy’s sword actually went. Though is the fake dungeon connected to the dead end if the real dungeon is supposedly where the tunnel actually leads??

[Agi Hammerthief]

was hoping the moving through the portal again would lead to the gate, rather then a dead end.

[doctor23]

So to get back to the "outside" of the trap, and wait for Team Evil. They would need to disarm again. cross, and then wait for Team evil to ambush them yes? I mean that's not gonna happen cause they will head down the "real" tunnel first to see what's down there just checking to make sure I have order of operations right.

[carborundum]

Ah, Blackwing is the best.

So - lots of pre-existing small dungeons all over the place, hooked up when creating this door-topia, or lots of small dungeons, specially built, or... lots of entrances to one mega-dungeon in the neighbourhood?

[Cicciograna]

Hmmm, let's see.

When Blackwing checks the entrance, he sees only part of the scorch mark from the dead rat skull, and that's reasonable because it extends through both "sides" of the teleportation line, with one side beeing in green area, and the other being in yellow area.

Then he flies through, and he finds himself in green area, with no scorch mark visible. Makes sense.

Then Roy peers from yellow side through the line. He seems to be peering into green side. We could assume that that green side is connected to the green side where Blackwing is, but that might be a stretch. What puzzles me is that "behind" him there are Blackwing and the scorch mark! They shouldn't be in the same side!

[understatement]

I love how Belkar is essentially the audience.

[georger0171]

Then Roy peers from yellow side through the line. He seems to be peering into green side. We could assume that that green side is connected to the green side where Blackwing is, but that might be a stretch. What puzzles me is that "behind" him there are Blackwing and the scorch mark! They shouldn't be in the same side!
Well, if Roy looked behind him, he would've seen Blackwing, because of the Divination aura created by that spell.

[Sir_Norbert]

Great! I love how Blackwing has become so useful after the running joke about the party forgetting he even existed in the early books :P

[GreatWyrmGold]

This is the "Alright, chumps, here's how everything works, please stop making the same basic theories a thousand times" strip.

And also the "Blackwing is a pragmatic coward" strip.

[Seto]

Huh, that's interesting...

1. There's a double teleportation effect, depending on which way you enter the portal. The trap that leads to a random dungeon if you come from the door, and the one that Roy got his head through, that leads to a dead end. Except...

2. They function differently. Haley putting a dead rat head inside the trap spent its energy and disabled it for 20 seconds, giving the Order time to pass through. By contrast, Roy put his head inside the portal to look at the dead end, and it didn't "activate" and disappear.

3. Or do they? The scrying process and the possibility of several intruders entering the tunnel one after the other indicates that the portal is permanent, rather than a trap that activates once on contact and recharges after 20 seconds. Then why did the rat head work?

Am I overthinking this?
Also, I'm wondering about the dead end, what its purpose is, and what it means. Could it be a key for later?

[Cicciograna]

Well, if Roy looked behind him, he would've seen Blackwing, because of the Divination aura created by that spell.

Oooh, I understand what you mean. You are saying that the scorch mark is actually there where he is peering from, but that Blackwing is instead an image produced by the Divination effect. I get it now, thank you!

[Riftwolf]

I like this comic for going through various hypotheses and addressing them. We now know the answers to a lot of theories.
I'm guessing the teleported dungeon is deep below Monster Hollow, possibly as some kind of pseudo-underdark ecology that handwaves the second law of thermodynamics (the door portals could act as vents, I guess, and there's a magical source of power to keep the entropy out).

[GreatWyrmGold]

was hoping the moving through the portal again would lead to the gate, rather then a dead end.
Serini wouldn't want the Gate to be that easy to find. (And for that matter, neither would Elan. Or Rich.)



So to get back to the "outside" of the trap, and wait for Team Evil. They would need to disarm again. cross, and then wait for Team evil to ambush them yes? I mean that's not gonna happen cause they will head down the "real" tunnel first to see what's down there just checking to make sure I have order of operations right.
Problem #1: They haven't figured out how to get outside again. Unless disarming the trap from inside would work?



2. They function differently. Haley putting a dead rat head inside the trap spent its energy and disabled it for 20 seconds, giving the Order time to pass through. By contrast, Roy put his head inside the portal to look at the dead end, and it didn't "activate" and disappear.

3. Or do they? The scrying process and the possibility of several intruders entering the tunnel one after the other indicates that the portal is permanent, rather than a trap that activates once on contact and recharges after 20 seconds. Then why did the rat head work?

Am I overthinking this?
Possibly.

Haley was using her roguish trapfinding abilities to temporarily disable the magical trap. How does that work? Same way magical traps work in the first place, except it's an (Ex) ability so magic isn't directly involved. I guess intentional sabotage is more debilitating than typical function?



I like this comic for going through various hypotheses and addressing them. We now know the answers to a lot of theories.
I'm guessing the teleported dungeon is deep below Monster Hollow, possibly as some kind of pseudo-underdark ecology that handwaves the second law of thermodynamics (the door portals could act as vents, I guess, and there's a magical source of power to keep the entropy out).
Assuming that there aren't other entrances somewhere to places monsters/food can wander in from. Though Team Evil probably would have notice those by now...

[Ionathus]

Doom Tunnel and the Kill Skeleton is my favorite Hardy Boys mystery!

Great work, as always. I cackled.

[Metastachydium]

Two things:
1. it's good to see how much love Blackwing gets despite there being a whole thread about how he is a „mistake” with flat jokes;
2. while I was absolutely certain the space behind the screen is just a nondescript section of the same corridor the Order's in, seeing the crazy theories about the Gate being just there is truly a comfort.

[georger0171]

[QUOTE=Riftwolf;24895275
I'm guessing the teleported dungeon is deep below Monster Hollow, possibly as some kind of pseudo-underdark ecology that handwaves the second law of thermodynamics (the door portals could act as vents, I guess, and there's a magical source of power to keep the entropy out).[/QUOTE]

That actually seems like a plausible theory.

In other news, does anyone know of any spells that V or Durkon could use to determine their location?
I mean, Durkon knows his depth underground, but what about latitude/longitude?

[Metastachydium]

Problem #1: They haven't figured out how to get outside again. Unless disarming the trap from inside would work?


I'm pretty sure that's the case. A better question is whether disarming the trap permanently (instead of bypassing it) would trap Team Evil in the tunnel they entered or not.

[BaronOfHell]

It may be comfortable to know that the villains certainly couldn't have found the gate yet, but the heroes learning about this means it is only a matter of time before the villains figure it out as well, is my guess.

[Rjaye]

I was sure the familiar was just going to be there for a quick jab and a knock on how people treat familiars in 3.5 (and beyond) yet he's turned into one of my favourite B cast characters.

[Frozenstep]

Good to see the order testing out some of the ideas we were bouncing around. The fact that the other side is just a dead-end shoots down my theory that all they had to do was turn around to get to the gate.

[danielxcutter]

It may be comfortable to know that the villains certainly couldn't have found the gate yet, but the heroes learning about this means it is only a matter of time before the villains figure it out as well, is my guess.

Not really; none of the members of Team Evil have the Trapfinding ability. Unless they decide to use Detect Magic or something they might never figure it out, though once they do it's only a Greater Dispel Magic away from being suppressed.

Serini's probably smart enough to prepare against that though; that spell is literally a cantrip. The traps could be masked with something like Magic Aura or something, I guess, but I doubt that's the only thing.

[Book Wombat]

Thanks!

Very convincing Blackwing, flap flap.

[Metastachydium]

Not really; none of the members of Team Evil have the Trapfinding ability. Unless they decide to use Detect Magic or something they might never figure it out, though once they do it's only a Greater Dispel Magic away from being suppressed.

New crazy theory: the IFCC is sending a high-level mountebank in the general area as we speak.


Serini's probably smart enough

But then, she probably isn't (khm, her life and times, khm).

[Kareeah_Indaga]

Nice. :smallbiggrin:

I’d written off the floor color as a visual distortion from the magic barrier myself.

[drazen]

Looks like the Order now has a tunnel to explore.

Would Divination on the trap let a guardian monitor the crossings, in addition to showing the portal destination as if it were just a regular tunnel?

Unfortunately, the Order demonstrating such competence means that, at least by standard tropes, the villains will probably become that much more competent as well... :P

[pendell]

Bravo! This is the first time I've laughed -- really laughed -- at an OOTS strip in a long time. Blackwing's punchline cracked me up.

So now we know it's a teleportation trap much like the never-ending corridor in Wizardry I: Proving Grounds of the mad overlord (The corridor was actually 40' long, but there was a teleportation trap at 30' which sent you back to 10', so if you just walked down it you'd walk forever and never get anywhere).

This also tells us that the MITD's marking of additional doors did not help or hinder Team Evil, since they were always travelling to a decoy corridor anyway. Nonetheless, the attempt definitely counts towards a good alignment, since ze was attempting to hinder the evil villains in the most efficient way the MITD knew.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[danielxcutter]

New crazy theory: the IFCC is sending a high-level mountebank in the general area as we speak.

...Mountebank is one of those Dragon Compendium base classes right? IIRC I think it did explicitly get its magical abilities from lower powers...

Also if we want to get pedantic, there are plenty of ways besides that. Factotum. The Chameleon PrC. Even a core-only Arcane Trickster might be able to pull that off.


But then, she probably isn't (khm, her life and times, khm).

There's being terminally stupid, and there's being stupid enough to have your location holding the cosmic underpants of the universe up defeated by a literal cantrip. I'm not sure if even early-OotS Elan was that stupid.

[Lightning Lance]

I think the scorch mark appearing by Blackwing from Roy's point of view is probably a mistake. Blackwing doesn't see it on that side from either of his points of view (entering the door, and after passing through the barrier to Xykon's side).

[Benedict]

Hm... the panel where Roy's looking through is a little confusing, since... isn't that dead end where the tunnel they're actually in terminates, just beyond the projection? Shouldn't the floor be the same yellower color in the dead-end? Or is the projection also a teleporter (hence the WONNNH), going to a third location with the same greener floor as the entrance? (And who builds a teleporter pointing to a dead end?)

On an unrelated note... how much do you want to bet Monster Hollow doesn't "regenerate" monsters like Redcloak is assuming? If these portals can switch around where they're pointing to, why not have them switch on a rotation of, say, a couple months, naturally? The MitD's trick here- surely Serini Toormuck would've thought of it when designing the place, and thought "well, okay, so what if I set it up to do that automatically?" Switching where the doors go every few months, so anyone trying to systematically work through them by marking the doors is wasting their time?

[Night Knight]

Does this mean there now exists the potential for the OOTS to trap Team Evil inside if they break the trap? It wouldn't be a win, but it would give the Order a lot of breathing room.

[KorvinStarmast]

... the pacing feels just a bit slow here ... nice to get some solid grounding and confirmation of what is going on here. If you consider the strip as part of a graphic novel (which it is) and the readers as someone who never visits the forum, the exposition is needful.

I love how Belkar is essentially the audience. As a part of the audience, this is the closest I'll ever get to being a Sexy Shoeless God of War, I guess.
I'm guessing the teleported dungeon is deep below Monster Hollow, possibly as some kind of pseudo-underdark ecology that handwaves the second law of thermodynamics (the door portals could act as vents, I guess, and there's a magical source of power to keep the entropy out). V had a few strips commenting on how talent for making the laws of physics sit in the corner and cry was acknowledged as part of magic's benefit - the second law can go and hang insofar as magic is concerned in OoTSland. :smallbiggrin:

Doom Tunnel and the Kill Skeleton is my favorite Hardy Boys mystery! Oh my goodness, I didn't get the ref until you mentioned it.
Not really; none of the members of Team Evil have the Trapfinding ability. I guess I am not smart enough on the 3.5 edition here; don't rangers have trap finding skills? (I was under the impression that Oona is some kind of ranger).

PS: thank you Giant. This is a fun strip.

I keep thinking "Roy Greenhat" these days. I really like his green wool watch cap head gear. One of those "small details I enjoy" about the strip.

[Mad Humanist]

Good to see the order testing out some of the ideas we were bouncing around. The fact that the other side is just a dead-end shoots down my theory that all they had to do was turn around to get to the gate.

Unless the dead end is an illusion.

[skim172]

Nice. :smallbiggrin:

I’d written off the floor color as a visual distortion from the magic barrier myself.

I think the idea is that dust and light from the door is also teleported through the barrier, causing similar discoloration in the fake dungeon, while the real dungeon has not become discolored because it's protected from the outside elements.

As I understand this, there are two dungeons - Dungeon A, (the real one with the door, leading to the gate) and Dungeon B (the fake one with the dead end, leading to a random dungeon). If you enter the portal - from either direction - you are teleported to the other dungeon. Team Evil passes from Dungeon A into Dungeon B.

I wonder if there is a unique Dungeon B for every door (as in every door leads to a fake dungeon of its own) or if it's sort of a roulette system, randomly changing which dungeon the door is connected to after regular intervals.

[Shining Wrath]

Alas, poor Blackwing. I think your high-grade sarcasm may have been lost on Roy.
It is now confirmed that Team Evil has never actually explored the dungeon which hides the gate, aside from the first few feet of numerous tunnels. No rogue; no gate.
My objection is that you'd think that either Xykon or Redcloak would have cast Detect Magic sometime and noticed the trap. But ... if you get into a habit (open the door, walk down the tunnel) why vary the routine?

[RochtheCrusher]

Nice to see exactly were Roy’s sword actually went. Though is the fake dungeon connected to the dead end if the real dungeon is supposedly where the tunnel actually leads??

Presumably, the dead end is physically connected to Team Evil's tunnel, and magically connected to the area around Kragor's Tomb, while the Order's tunnel is physically connected to Kragor's Tomb and magically connected to the dead end. Otherwise, we have a third tunnel somewhere supplying the dead end for no reason.

[Metastachydium]

...Mountebank is one of those Dragon Compendium base classes right? IIRC I think it did explicitly get its magical abilities from lower powers...

Mhm. Precisely. It's an underwhelming rogue-analogue that pledges its soul to gentlemen in the ventral position in exchange for a couple of magic tricks.


Also if we want to get pedantic, there are plenty of ways besides that. Factotum. The Chameleon PrC. Even a core-only Arcane Trickster might be able to pull that off.

Factotums are fun stuff and yet I keep forgetting they exist.


There's being terminally stupid, and there's being stupid enough to have your location holding the cosmic underpants of the universe up defeated by a literal cantrip. I'm not sure if even early-OotS Elan was that stupid.

Well, committing to paper the location of every single object holding the underparts of the universe is not much better. Also, V's Detect Magic works just fine on the trap, so I'm not sure why Redcloak's wouldn't.

[RochtheCrusher]

My objection is that you'd think that either Xykon or Redcloak would have cast Detect Magic sometime and noticed the trap. But ... if you get into a habit (open the door, walk down the tunnel) why vary the routine?

https://www.dnd-spells.com/spell/nystuls-magic-aura

Magical auras can be spoofed and, for magical traps, they routinely are. The mage who sets them knows that another mage could easily find them, and therefore takes pains to hide the trap from their own skillset.

Rules as Written, and specifically, only a rogue has a chance to find a magical trap. Possibly because a mage is stepping into their turf, and is doing a fantastic MAGICAL job, but it's hard to outdo a scoundrel at their own game.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm

[KorvinStarmast]

My objection is that you'd think that either Xykon or Redcloak would have cast Detect Magic sometime and noticed the trap. But ... if you get into a habit (open the door, walk down the tunnel) why vary the routine? Given that the bugbears, per Oona's exposition, go in and out with some frequency before Team Evil arrives, maybe they listened to Oona and friends and were pre-disposed to just accept the dungeon passageways at face value - hence no need to cast detect magic.

The smartest guy in Team Evil, Redcloak, looks at all of those doors and arrives at a method to use process of elimination and probability to narrow down the choices to the correct door (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html). He's being taken in by the meta-shell game, isn't he? That shows us a bit of the rogue element folded into this gate's protection design. Redcloak falls for "if we just pick the right door we'll find it" ruse. Picking the right door will, I suspect, never lead you to the gate. You'll always go to a random dungeon, somewhere, and fight various beasties.

Oona mentions that the dungeons replenish, right? Or, maybe they (bugbears and later team evil) are depopulating the dungeons one by one, and end up in a random one each time so it seems like the dungeons are repopulating. When the have cleaned out the last dungeon that Serini stocked, they still won't have found the gate. Team Evil feels that they are under time pressure. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html) Wasting time on fruitless search frustrates attaining their goals, and allows for others to arrive and disrupt their plan. That would seem to be an element of how to construct a gate's defense.

[Worldsong]

So the Order of the Stick now has a working theory for how the trap works. Nice.

[Sebastian]

"flap, flap, flap, flap." :biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::bigg rin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin::biggrin:: biggrin:

Oh, my god. I've laughed so hard. Thankfully i was not at work. i doubt I could have stopped it.

[Shining Wrath]

I think the idea is that dust and light from the door is also teleported through the barrier, causing similar discoloration in the fake dungeon, while the real dungeon has not become discolored because it's protected from the outside elements.

As I understand this, there are two dungeons - Dungeon A, (the real one with the door, leading to the gate) and Dungeon B (the fake one with the dead end, leading to a random dungeon). If you enter the portal - from either direction - you are teleported to the other dungeon. Team Evil passes from Dungeon A into Dungeon B.

I wonder if there is a unique Dungeon B for every door (as in every door leads to a fake dungeon of its own) or if it's sort of a roulette system, randomly changing which dungeon the door is connected to after regular intervals.

Team Evil keeps finding monsters, so I think that means each teleport trap sends you to a different location.


Mhm. Precisely. It's an underwhelming rogue-analogue that pledges its soul to gentlemen in the ventral position in exchange for a couple of magic tricks.



Factotums are fun stuff and yet I keep forgetting they exist.



Well, committing to paper the location of every single object holding the underparts of the universe is not much better. Also, V's Detect Magic works just fine on the trap, so I'm not sure why Redcloak's wouldn't.

Factotums are indeed fun.
It may be that V's Detect Magic works because they cast it from the inside; part of the Divination magic might be giving a false result to Detect Magic, although I suspect that would be more than "minor" Divination.

[hamishspence]

Alas, poor Blackwing. I think your high-grade sarcasm may have been lost on Roy.

Blackwing's statement in the last panel isn't sarcasm, at least, it's Blackwing's version of what V says here, IMO:


https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0203.html

[Shining Wrath]

https://www.dnd-spells.com/spell/nystuls-magic-aura

Magical auras can be spoofed and, for magical traps, they routinely are. The mage who sets them knows that another mage could easily find them, and therefore takes pains to hide the trap from their own skillset.

Rules as Written, and specifically, only a rogue has a chance to find a magical trap. Possibly because a mage is stepping into their turf, and is doing a fantastic MAGICAL job, but it's hard to outdo a scoundrel at their own game.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm

I had forgotten Nystul's. A most spendiferous spell for the dungeon-building mage. And maybe Nystull's is in effect if you're outside the dungeon, but not if you're inside, past the trap.

[Ghosty]

Hm... the panel where Roy's looking through is a little confusing, since... isn't that dead end where the tunnel they're actually in terminates, just beyond the projection? Shouldn't the floor be the same yellower color in the dead-end? Or is the projection also a teleporter (hence the WONNNH), going to a third location with the same greener floor as the entrance? (And who builds a teleporter pointing to a dead end?)

On an unrelated note... how much do you want to bet Monster Hollow doesn't "regenerate" monsters like Redcloak is assuming? If these portals can switch around where they're pointing to, why not have them switch on a rotation of, say, a couple months, naturally? The MitD's trick here- surely Serini Toormuck would've thought of it when designing the place, and thought "well, okay, so what if I set it up to do that automatically?" Switching where the doors go every few months, so anyone trying to systematically work through them by marking the doors is wasting their time?

All of this, but mainly the first paragraph. Roy stuck his head into a different tunnel than where the Order is. It might even be a different tunnel than what TE is currently in. I'm interested in discovering what would happen if Roy went completely through the portal, then reversed and went back through it. I don't think he'd end up with the Order, but I don't know where he'd end up.

(This is making me want to use Feynman diagrams to try and figure out what's going on.)

I think if Haley were to disable the portal from the door side, TE would still be able to come back to the door side, as her actions wouldn't affect the portal where TE currently is. My guess is all doors lead to the same thing, if you bypass the portal. Ties in with Roy's observation about the close spaced doors and where do you fit the corridors. No idea if that same thing is the Gate.

I wonder if there's a second set of portals, more difficult to find than this first one?

Glad the Giant is well and posting again.

[KorvinStarmast]

It may be that V's Detect Magic works because they cast it from the inside; part of the Divination magic might be giving a false result to Detect Magic, although I suspect that would be more than "minor" Divination. IIRC, Nystul's Magic aura does that, doesn't it?

[Zhorn]

This gave me a good late night chuckle.
Thanks Giant, loving the work as always.

[Windscion]

Flap, flap, flap, flap.
I wish this site had shmuckers so I could tip this.

[Alaris]

I saw the comic go up before i got the email about it. I don’t know true seeing well enough but it’s surprising it doesn’t tell this is happening. Good for the order though :)

So, it's because the way it is set up that Tree Seeing doesn't tell that it's happening.

It's not actually an illusion. It's a trap that teleports them, with a Divination spell that shows them their destination.

It's actually quite clever. The only reason the OoTS got through it is because they had a high level rogue who actually saw the trap. Team Evil... well, a High Level Cleric and Sorcerer can get through a lot... but traps will still be a problem.

[Metastachydium]

My guess is all doors lead to the same thing, if you bypass the portal. Ties in with Roy's observation about the close spaced doors and where do you fit the corridors. No idea if that same thing is the Gate.


„Yes, this theory keeps coming up, and I happen to be one of the folks who keep pointing out that »all the doors lead to the Gate if one has a rogue« would be a horrible defense. (…) [I]f there are two corridors behind each door, the second of which can only be accessed if the trap is disarmed, and only one of the secondary corridors (which are guarded) leads to the Gate, it's clever. (…)
If, rather, disarming the trap behind any door leads to the one secondary corridor which leads to the Gate, now that's DUMB, period, even if the secondary corridor is guarded.”

[Dragonus45]

IIRC, Nystul's Magic aura does that, doesn't it?

It does exactly that, and depending on the designers resources you can do a lot of great stuff with the spell. Like the dungeon I'm running right now where every five foot square of the dungeon's floor, walls, and roof, have had the spell cast on them to register as a different school of magic to baffle attempts to detect within the dungeon. I'm a complete and total moron and even I worked this idea out so I'm sure a high level rogue with the kind of resources like Serini can do much better.

[Ivrytwr]

I am loving Blackwing!
"Flap, flap, flap, flap" made me laugh out loud.
Thanks Giant!

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Hmm, interesting that trying to go back through teleports you again. I wonder if going all the way through and then through again would bring you to a yet another spot...

I cackled at that last punchline.

[Ghosty]

„Yes, this theory keeps coming up, and I happen to be one of the folks who keep pointing out that »all the doors lead to the Gate if one has a rogue« would be a horrible defense. (…) [I]f there are two corridors behind each door, the second of which can only be accessed if the trap is disarmed, and only one of the secondary corridors (which are guarded) leads to the Gate, it's clever. (…)
If, rather, disarming the trap behind any door leads to the one secondary corridor which leads to the Gate, now that's DUMB, period, even if the secondary corridor is guarded.”

I just noticed Blackwing is visible flying in the panel where Roy's head went through. So, I'm guessing Roy would be transported to TE's tunnel if he were to do what I suggested. If TE, returning to the door, saw the portal, disabled it, and walked past it, they'd see Roy's head's alcove dead end.

So no 3rd set of tunnels. (Funny what you miss: I'd have sworn Blackwing wasn't there in that panel, the first time I read the strip.)

[Debatra]

I'm pretty sure that's the case. A better question is whether disarming the trap permanently (instead of bypassing it) would trap Team Evil in the tunnel they entered or not.


Does this mean there now exists the potential for the OOTS to trap Team Evil inside if they break the trap? It wouldn't be a win, but it would give the Order a lot of breathing room.

This would probably be among the worst things they could possibly do. Unless whatever tunnel Team Evil is in is dimensionally locked (which would negate the portal entirely), Xykon can just teleport them out. And then Redcloak would think to check the door they went in and find the real tunnel.

[Shining Wrath]

I notice that the scorch mark varies depending on where you are in the tunnels / trap complex.

It's fully visible only for those who are past the trap.
For those outside (Blackwing in panel #9) the door-side scorch is visible, but not the OotS side.
Once Blackwing is through (panel #14), again, the door-side scorch is visible, but not the OotS side.
When Roy sticks his head through to the dead end, only the OotS-side scorch is visible.

This is a clue that Red Cloak or Oona may notice and figure out. "Hey, why is there a scorch mark here with a sharp edge?" And then someone pops off Dispel Magic on the grounds that there must be an illusion.

[Ghosty]

„Yes, this theory keeps coming up, and I happen to be one of the folks who keep pointing out that »all the doors lead to the Gate if one has a rogue« would be a horrible defense. (…) [I]f there are two corridors behind each door, the second of which can only be accessed if the trap is disarmed, and only one of the secondary corridors (which are guarded) leads to the Gate, it's clever. (…)
If, rather, disarming the trap behind any door leads to the one secondary corridor which leads to the Gate, now that's DUMB, period, even if the secondary corridor is guarded.”

Then it's a thousand or so dead-ends, and one or a few doors that lead to the Gate, once you initially detect and bypass the Teleport portal? Sounds like Tomb of Horrors on steroids. I hope the Order packed a lunch... I also hope the false corridors aren't as death-trapped as ToH was.

But I suspect we'll be finding the Invisible Duo long before then.

[Ghosty]

This would probably be among the worst things they could possibly do. Unless whatever tunnel Team Evil is in is dimensionally locked (which would negate the portal entirely), Xykon can just teleport them out. And then Redcloak would think to check the door they went in and find the real tunnel.

Can they Teleport through dimensional stone? Or does it just stop things like Etherealness and Ghostform? Guess they could try and find out...

[Coyote0715]

If I had a band, that's the name I'd want: Doom Tunnel featuring Kill Skeleton.

[LtPowers]

I just noticed Blackwing is visible flying in the panel where Roy's head went through. So, I'm guessing Roy would be transported to TE's tunnel if he were to do what I suggested.

I don't think so. I think it's more accurate to say that Roy's head is in the actual continuation (termination) of the tunnel to which Blackwing and Team Evil were teleported. We can see Blackwing because there was no point erecting a divination-screen to show something else there -- no one would ever be coming in from the dead end.

As for what the teleportation effect would do if Roy were to cross back through, I think he'd end up in the Order's tunnel -- anything else raises scary questions about being halfway through the portal.


Powers &8^]

[Metastachydium]

I just noticed Blackwing is visible flying in the panel where Roy's head went through. So, I'm guessing Roy would be transported to TE's tunnel if he were to do what I suggested. If TE, returning to the door, saw the portal, disabled it, and walked past it, they'd see Roy's head's alcove dead end.

So no 3rd set of tunnels. (Funny what you miss: I'd have sworn Blackwing wasn't there in that panel, the first time I read the strip.)

Yeah, I had the same epiphany in the meantime: the dead end is part of the fake tunnel.


Then it's a thousand or so dead-ends, and one or a few doors that lead to the Gate, once you initially detect and bypass the Teleport portal? Sounds like Tomb of Horrors on steroids.

Mhm. That's what I think it is.


But I suspect we'll be finding the Invisible Duo long before then.

Agreed.

[danielxcutter]

Can they Teleport through dimensional stone? Or does it just stop things like Etherealness and Ghostform? Guess they could try and find out...

I'm pretty sure "multidimensional stone" here means "exists on the Ethereal Plane as well so you can't cheese it by going incorporeal."

[2D8HP]

I'm sure I'm not the first to think this, but I know read Blacking in the voice of Raymond Chandler's detective Phillip Marlowe.

[Kantaki]

As usual Blackwing is the best.:smallbiggrin:
Flap Flap Flap.


So, it's because the way it is set up that Tree Seeing doesn't tell that it's happening.

Tree Seeing?
A very useful spell if you have to navigate a forest.:smalltongue:

[hamishspence]

I'm pretty sure "multidimensional stone" here means "exists on the Ethereal Plane as well so you can't cheese it by going incorporeal."

Or at least, exists on both the corporeal and incorporeal levels. There's a certain amount of debate over whether creatures or objects on the Ethereal Plane can interact with "Incorporeal Creatures on the Material Plane" at all, and vice versa.

"Force" is the most notable example of something that exists on all 3 levels, the material, the incorporeal, and the ethereal. A human a shadow, and a phase spider on the Ethereal plane, who meet a Wall of Force, all of these cannot pass through it normally.


So "multidimensional stone" might be stone that is enhanced with Force.

[Resileaf]

Well, I sure hope somebody picks up that phone.

Because I called it!

[danielxcutter]

Well, I sure hope somebody picks up that phone.

Because I called it!

People having literally been calling this since last year. :smalltongue:

[locksmith of lo]

so many questions answered! the wait was almost worth it! :smallbiggrin:

[drazen]

Yeah, I had the same epiphany in the meantime: the dead end is part of the fake tunnel.

Based on the information we have been presented, I think we have the following scenario:



DOOR ---- A||Portal/Trap||B ---- Real Corridor --- ??

-----------------------------------------------------
------------ Several layers of Dirt and Rock -----------
-----------------------------------------------------

Dead End --- B||Portal/Trap||A ---- Fake Corridor --- Fake Dungeon


A teleports to A, B teleports to B, depending on which side of the portal you came from. You have to disable/disarm the trap to reach the "real" corridor. Doesn't mean there's anything in the real corridor, just that you'd have to do this for hundreds of doors.

The only oddity is that we can see Blackwing from the dead-end, rather than what's in the fake tunnel. But there probably was little reason for anyone to see the fake tunnel from the dead-end, and in fact that dead end could be a convenient hiding spot, where you'd probably want to be able to monitor the actual door, rather than the fake/teleported tunnel.

[Bedinsis]

I was legit concerned that the punchline would be that Xykon had discovered Blackwing who now would be inches away from death. Looks like Blackwing shared my concern.

[NobleCuriosity]

I think the idea is that dust and light from the door is also teleported through the barrier, causing similar discoloration in the fake dungeon, while the real dungeon has not become discolored because it's protected from the outside elements.

Thanks, I didn't really get this until now, but it makes sense. Now I'm just confused by the scorch mark on blackwing's side when Roy went through the teleporter.

[danielxcutter]

Thanks, I didn't really get this until now, but it makes sense. Now I'm just confused by the scorch mark on blackwing's side when Roy went through the teleporter.

The rat head was on both "green" sides when she started disarming it, and on both sides of the tunnel after she disarmed it... maybe that's it? I have a mental image as how that might have happened but I'm not sure how to put it into words...

[masonwheeler]

Remember in 428 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html), when Xykon pulled a shell game on the Azurites?


A con man doesn't choose to play the shell game with you if there is any possibility of him actually losing. The con isn't in getting you to pick the wrong shell. The con is in getting you to accept that the basic premise of the game is still being followed. The con is in getting you to pick a shell at all.
The ball isn't under the first shell... or the second shell... or even the third shell. The ball is in the con man's palm the whole time.

Problem is, all this time everyone's been falling for the shell game... including the Monster in the Darkness. It's been attempting to sabotage Team Evil's progress by marking extra doors, but Xkyon knows how to run a shell game. Which means that he's bound to figure out what's going on sooner or later... and MitD has inadvertently made it so that moment will arrive sooner, rather than later.

[NobleCuriosity]

The rat head was on both "green" sides when she started disarming it, and on both sides of the tunnel after she disarmed it... maybe that's it? I have a mental image as how that might have happened but I'm not sure how to put it into words...

But if it's really there too, why doesn't Blackwing see the scorch mark on the "fake tunnel" side of the portal in page 2 panel 3? It seems to directly contradict what Roy sees in page 2 panel 7, which would have agreed with the "scorch is on everything but the dead end" theory.

[Linneris]

Okay, this is very clear! My question is: did nobody on Team Evil think of casting Detect Magic right before entering a dungeon? This was standard procedure in most D&D groups I've played in. I'd expect Redcloak to have done it.

[danielxcutter]

Okay, this is very clear! My question is: did nobody on Team Evil think of casting Detect Magic right before entering a dungeon? This was standard procedure in most D&D groups I've played in. I'd expect Redcloak to have done it.

A fairly good question; maybe they're warded with something like Magic Aura. That can help it avoid detection IIRC.

[bunsen_h]

This is the "Alright, chumps, here's how everything works, please stop making the same basic theories a thousand times" strip.

I remain unconvinced that the Order's theories are correct. It's possible but I'm not going to count on it.


Or at least, exists on both the corporeal and incorporeal levels. There's a certain amount of debate over whether creatures or objects on the Ethereal Plane can interact with "Incorporeal Creatures on the Material Plane" at all, and vice versa.

"Force" is the most notable example of something that exists on all 3 levels, the material, the incorporeal, and the ethereal. A human a shadow, and a phase spider on the Ethereal plane, who meet a Wall of Force, all of these cannot pass through it normally.

A human, a shadow, and a phase spider walk in, and are barred..?

[Jasdoif]

Okay, this is very clear! My question is: did nobody on Team Evil think of casting Detect Magic right before entering a dungeon? This was standard procedure in most D&D groups I've played in. I'd expect Redcloak to have done it.Detect magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectMagic.htm) has that vague line about "Magical areas, multiple types of magic, or strong local magical emanations may distort or conceal weaker auras"; it's possible the multidimensional stone the place is built out of is interfering.

[b_jonas]

I think some of you misunderstand the traps.

Redcloak and Xykon and Oona know about the teleportation traps behind every door. They could have detected its magic, or Oona could have told them, because they're common knowledge among the bugbear town who lives from hunting in those dungeons.

Team Evil is not in a “fake dungeon”. They're in one of the real dungeons where the teleportation traps lead them, with lots of “cool stuff to murder” (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1222.html) aka “the nastiest monsters of the world” (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html). These are the dungeons that Oona was talking about: “Hunt a little, tame a little. Wait, then monsters come back, start all over.” (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html) One of those dungeons also hides Kraagor's Gate.

The Order bypassed the trap, and are now in a short tunnel that was originally behind the trap that has nothing interesting in it. No monsters, and definitely no Kraagor's Gate. The bugbear community, Xykon and Redcloak has already bypassed these traps a few times, saw the short uninteresting tunnels, and know that they have nothing interesting in them.

From an in universe perspective, the teleportation traps are there because there'd be no way to put a thousand huge dungeons with monsters actually into that mountain. You saw how tightly the doors were packed in the wall (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html), if there were full dugeons behind each of them they'd overlap each other. The actual dungeons are more spread out underground. It doesn't really matter where they are, because those teleportation traps are the most convenient way to enter.

From a narrative perspective, the teleportation traps are there because the final confrontation of the Order with Team Evil has to be delayed, and this way Team Evil could miss the order for a short time.

The only thing Xykon and Redcloak actually missed is looking behind the scrying part of the trap, where the Order is hiding, which is not too surprising because those places are usually boring so Xykon stopped paying attention to them. If Xykon weren't hurrying the team (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1222.html) because he wants to fight montsers, the cautious Redcloak would have noticed the Order by now. Redcloak's words were “We might as well follow him. Putting the dwarves aside, we need more data to determine the scale of the error with regard to the door marks.” This method of hiding can work once, just as melding into stone could work once, but it won't protect the Order forever.

[Shale]

Detect magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectMagic.htm) has that vague line about "Magical areas, multiple types of magic, or strong local magical emanations may distort or conceal weaker auras"; it's possible the multidimensional stone the place is built out of is interfering.

It might also just be warded against detection from the outside (where the rubes are) but not from the inside of the real tunnel (since if you're already there, either you know what's going on already or you're going to figure it out just via empirical testing)

The real question is, since that teleport spell only works in one direction....how does the Order get out?

[Metastachydium]

The real question is, since that teleport spell only works in one direction....how does the Order get out?

The Order was never teleported anywhere, since the conjuration effect that does that is part of the trap. All they need to do is disable/bypass the trap again and walk out.

[Kantaki]

The real question is, since that teleport spell only works in one direction....how does the Order get out?

I'd assume the tunnel they're in leads somewhere*, so maybe they just follow it?

*Because it's there, mostly.
Basically my logic is, if there wasn't a point to this tunnel Serini wouldn't have bothered with it and the Order would stand in a dead end, like in the other dungeon.

[bunsen_h]

The Order bypassed the trap, and are now in a short tunnel that was originally behind the trap that has nothing interesting in it. No monsters, and definitely no Kraagor's Gate. The bugbear community, Xykon and Redcloak has already bypassed these traps a few times, saw the short uninteresting tunnels, and know that they have nothing interesting in them.

Xykon is having fun just killing stuff. Redcloak wouldn't assume that the hidden tunnels all have nothing interesting in them, just based on a small sample.

[ratfox]

I notice that the scorch mark varies depending on where you are in the tunnels / trap complex.

It's fully visible only for those who are past the trap.
For those outside (Blackwing in panel #9) the door-side scorch is visible, but not the OotS side.
Once Blackwing is through (panel #14), again, the door-side scorch is visible, but not the OotS side.
When Roy sticks his head through to the dead end, only the OotS-side scorch is visible.

This is a clue that Red Cloak or Oona may notice and figure out. "Hey, why is there a scorch mark here with a sharp edge?" And then someone pops off Dispel Magic on the grounds that there must be an illusion.

But there is something that doesn't make sense on the drawings. On panel #14, viewed from Blackwing, the scorch mark is only on the door-side; meaning that in the tunnel #2 there is no scorch mark on the not-door-side. On panel #18, viewed from Roy's head, there is a scorch mark on the not-door-side — but that's the not-door-side of of tunnel #2, since we can see Blackwing.

Either the scorch mark should be on Blackwing's side as well on panel #14, or it should not be there on panel #18. We could imagine logical reasons for the scorch mark to be there or not, but it should be consistent.

[KorvinStarmast]

Or at least, exists on both the corporeal and incorporeal levels. There's a certain amount of debate over whether creatures or objects on the Ethereal Plane can interact with "Incorporeal Creatures on the Material Plane" at all, and vice versa.

"Force" is the most notable example of something that exists on all 3 levels, the material, the incorporeal, and the ethereal. A human a shadow, and a phase spider on the Ethereal plane, who meet a Wall of Force, all of these cannot pass through it normally. TIL today, thanks. I'll see if that interaction is the same in 5e. Thanks for getting my brain churning.

A human, a shadow, and a phase spider walk in, and are barred..? Heh, nice one.

The Order was never teleported anywhere, since the conjuration effect that does that is part of the trap. All they need to do is disable/bypass the trap again and walk out. That's how it seems as of this strip. I'll bet the over on it.

[One Skunk Todd]

So let me see if I got this right.

This only applies to this door, but may apply to other doors.

Where you can stand:
DOOR
DEAD END
MONSTER TUNNEL
MYSTERY TUNNEL

Where you go with the trap active:
DOOR -> MONSTER TUNNEL
DEAD END -> MYSTERY TUNNEL(I think)
MONSTER TUNNEL -> DOOR
MYSTERY TUNNEL -> DEAD END

WHAT YOU SEE AND HEAR with the trap active:
DOOR -> MONSTER TUNNEL
DEAD END -> MONSTER TUNNEL
MONSTER TUNNEL -> DOOR
MYSTERY TUNNEL -> DOOR

Note, this renders the mystery tunnel invisible through the trap from any location. Obviously you can see where you are standing.

Where you go with the trap INACTVE:
DOOR -> MYSTERY TUNNEL
DEAD END -> Not known but seems likely MONSTER TUNNEL
MONSTER TUNNEL -> Not known but seems likely DEAD END
MYSTERY TUNNEL -> Not known but seems likely DOOR

It seems likely that each door would have a MYSTERY TUNNEL behind a deactivated trap, however each MYSTERY TUNNEL might simply be a place to stand and observe people coming and going through each door and may not connect any place important.

Each door with an active trap connects to a MONSTER TUNNEL, but there may be more, the same or fewer MONSTER TUNNELS than the number of doors. It seems like a one-to-one relationship though, given the restocking description from Oona.

It seems like the MONSTER TUNNELS are probably isolated from the surface with the traps deactivated. Unfortunately this is not a way to strand Team Evil since I think Xykon has epic teleport.

[gatemansgc]

doom tunnel with kill skeleton! omg i love blackwing SO much <3

also wasn't expecting the dead end on the other side of the tunnel. that means they probably ARE in the true tunnel, and that one had no connection from the outside! does that mean every door team evil took was in the same dungeon? or maybe each door warped you to a random (but consistent by door) wrong dungeon cause oona said that it takes a few days to respawn so it couldn't just be the same dungeon over and over!

wb

[Psychronia]

It's what any decently autonomous employee would do. Good work, Blackwing.

SCIENCE! We sorta figured it out, but the Order has learned to be thorough about this.

[BaronOfHell]

But there is something that doesn't make sense on the drawings. On panel #14, viewed from Blackwing, the scorch mark is only on the door-side; meaning that in the tunnel #2 there is no scorch mark on the not-door-side. On panel #18, viewed from Roy's head, there is a scorch mark on the not-door-side — but that's the not-door-side of of tunnel #2, since we can see Blackwing.

Either the scorch mark should be on Blackwing's side as well on panel #14, or it should not be there on panel #18. We could imagine logical reasons for the scorch mark to be there or not, but it should be consistent.

My take is that the trap was disabled when the scorch mark was created.

[Darth Paul]

I, too, would definitely wait for the umpteenth level fighter's permission to amscray the dungeon where the lich and his evil high priest buddy are just hanging out looking for things to kill. (Not.)

[The Pilgrim]

My take on how it works is:

DUNGEON A
-----------------------------------------------------
D ### @[ +++++++++++++++++++++++++
-----------------------------------------------------

DUNGEON B
------------------------------------------------------
| ### ]@ #######################
------------------------------------------------------

D = Door to Surface
# = Green Floor
+ = Yellow Floor
| = Dead End
@ = Dimensional Portal (DP) -> Switches you between Dungeon A and Dungeon B
[ = Divination Screen 1 (DS1) -> Shows Dungeon B to anyone coming from the Door
] = Divination Screen 2 (DS2) -> Shows Dungeon A to anyone coming from the Passageway

....

Therefore:

- OOTS enter door of Dungeon A, DP active, they see (B)
- OOTS deactivate DP and DS1, they see (A) and cross into (A)
- Team Evil enter door of (A), DP and DS1 active. They see (B), cross into (B)
- Team Evil now in (B). If they look back, DS2 shows them (A)
- When looking towards the door, Order still see (A), as DS1 only triggers if you are looking from the door side
- Blackwing enters, DP and DS1 active. He sees (B), crosses into (B)
- Roy crosses DP while it's active. As he's in (A - passageway side), he goes to (B - dead end side).
- Blackwing is visible from Roy's position because DS2 only triggers if you are looking from the passageway side.
- Roy goes back. DP active. As he's in (B - dead end side), he goes to (A - passageway side), back to the OOTS.
- Blackwing goes back, crosses DP. As he's in (B - passageway side), goes back to (A - door side)

....

Now, my Speculation:

- If the OOTS deactivates DP again, they can exit Dungeon A from the same door they entered.
- If the OOTS deactivates DP while Roy is halfway, he dies as the half of his body in B is detatched from the half of his body in A.
- If the OOTS disables DP permanently, Team Evil can't go back to the door, effectively trapping them in Dungeon B

[One Skunk Todd]

But there is something that doesn't make sense on the drawings. On panel #14, viewed from Blackwing, the scorch mark is only on the door-side; meaning that in the tunnel #2 there is no scorch mark on the not-door-side. On panel #18, viewed from Roy's head, there is a scorch mark on the not-door-side — but that's the not-door-side of of tunnel #2, since we can see Blackwing.

Either the scorch mark should be on Blackwing's side as well on panel #14, or it should not be there on panel #18. We could imagine logical reasons for the scorch mark to be there or not, but it should be consistent.

You're right, the mark should not be there in #18. I think it's an art error. I am guessing the scorch mark mismatch is what will give away the game to Team Evil.

[gerryq]

Presumably, the dead end is physically connected to Team Evil's tunnel, and magically connected to the area around Kragor's Tomb, while the Order's tunnel is physically connected to Kragor's Tomb and magically connected to the dead end. Otherwise, we have a third tunnel somewhere supplying the dead end for no reason.


It's not that simple - there are seemingly a LOT of real tunnels. Either the Order is in one of a thousand tunnels that presumably all join up somehow, or they are in a single special tunnel. The dead end connected to that could be the start of any other tunnel.

Unless there is only one tunnel with a magical trap (and when you think about it, that IS the right way to design this), and they stumbled into it. That means there must be a million tunnels in total :D

If so, and if MitD marked this one, maybe he does know something.

[The Pilgrim]

It's not that simple - there are seemingly a LOT of real tunnels. Either the Order is in one of a thousand tunnels that presumably all join up somehow, or they are in a single special tunnel. The dead end connected to that could be the start of any other tunnel.

Unless there is only one tunnel with a magical trap (and when you think about it, that IS the right way to design this), and they stumbled into it. That means there must be a million tunnels in total :D

If so, and if MitD marked this one, maybe he does know something.

My take is that there are, say, 1000 doors, each with a portal trap connecting it to one of 1000 dungeons that are somewhere else. And that's how it's possible that each door leads to a different dungeon without overlapping, despite all the doors being so close to each other.

Without the portal traps, 999 of the doors leads to a dead end, and 1 of the doors leads to the Gate... and it's defenders.

If you don't figure out the traps, the Defenders let you go on picking doors unmolested, as you will never find the Gate.

If you figure out the trap, though, the Defenders aren't going to let you continue picking doors unmolested until you eventually find the Jackpot.

Therefore, the Order is about to meet the Gate Defenders.

[Riftwolf]

...Mountebank is one of those Dragon Compendium base classes right? IIRC I think it did explicitly get its magical abilities from lower powers...

You get demonic powers by standing on benches?

[r2d2go]

My take is that there are, say, 1000 doors, each with a portal trap connecting it to one of 1000 dungeons that are somewhere else. And that's how it's possible that each door leads to a different dungeon without overlapping, despite all the doors being so close to each other.

Without the portal traps, 999 of the doors leads to a dead end, and 1 of the doors leads to the Gate... and it's defenders.

If you don't figure out the traps, the Defenders let you go on picking doors unmolested, as you will never find the Gate.

If you figure out the trap, though, the Defenders aren't going to let you continue picking doors unmolested until you eventually find the Jackpot.

Therefore, the Order is about to meet the Gate Defenders.

By that logic, though, you might as well put all (or at least a vast majority) of your defenders in the 1 door that leads to the gate - there's no reason to put the "true", high-powered defenders anywhere else. In fact, given that the trap just looks mostly like a trap, and you wouldn't notice the separation effect unless you specifically disabled the trap, let it re-enable, and then watched someone else walk in... It makes more sense for most, or all, of the dungeons to have just "trick" defenders anyway, to keep up the charade.

Heck, by the Shell Game logic, you don't need to make a convenient door to the gate either way. Serini was a rogue, and while she might have honored Kraagor with the endless monsters, if she planned to never let the gate be accessed then she could just leave no physical doors to the gate. The teleport trick still helps, because if you fall for it, even if you start tunneling through walls you will never find the gate. But, if you happen to disable that trap, it's better to require specific wallhacks/teleportation and guessing to find the gate, rather than potentially just letting people walk into the gate, right?

[bunsen_h]

You're right, the mark should not be there in #18. I think it's an art error. I am guessing the scorch mark mismatch is what will give away the game to Team Evil.

I think it's more likely to be a clue to what's going on than an error. Rich would be paying especially close attention to the details of what is visible from where. If the observations aren't consistent with the theory, it's more likely that the theory is wrong than that there's a problem with the observations. In some circumstances it can mean that the observations involve an experimental protocol whose conditions aren't sufficiently controlled, but I don't think that that's likely to be the case here.

[KorvinStarmast]

If you figure out the trap, though, the Defenders aren't going to let you continue picking doors unmolested until you eventually find the Jackpot.

Therefore, the Order is about to meet the Gate Defenders. Hmm. I need to chew on this a bit before I buy into it. Interesting approach ..

You get demonic powers by standing on benches? Isn't that how Pun-Pun got built? :smallbiggrin:

[Sneak Dog]

You're right, the mark should not be there in #18. I think it's an art error. I am guessing the scorch mark mismatch is what will give away the game to Team Evil.

Alternatively panel b7 is Blackwing leaving (meaning it's the half a scorchmark next to the entrance) and panel b9 is a mystery.

[Emanick]

Hey, last night I dreamed there would be a new comic today, and my dream came true!

Of course, I also dreamed that Rich had sketched out several pages of a long, baleful nonfiction tale about how traumatizing his last month had been, one that literally made me cry because it was so horrible, and put it directly beneath the main comic. Super glad that part did not come true.

[Draconi Redfir]

i feel like it's more accurate to say that Xykon walked into the dungeon physically connected to the door, while the order was transported somewhere else. everything just kinda points to that.

not sure why the order didn't pick up on that.

[Crusher]

Flap flap flap flap.

Lol.

[Canisius]

"Which I will do now. Flap flap flap flap"

I startled my cats.

[Canisius]

Hey, what is the url to go directly to the latest comic? I moved my bookmarks around and somehow my OOTS bookmark goes to 1222.

[Aegeus]

i feel like it's more accurate to say that Xykon walked into the dungeon physically connected to the door, while the order was transported somewhere else. everything just kinda points to that.

not sure why the order didn't pick up on that.
The trap was disabled, so the order wasn't transported anywhere. Xykon was - they saw him vanish before their eyes.

It is a little confusing because Roy pokes his head out and sees a dead end before saying that, but he was sticking his head through the teleporter, so he was seeing the fake dungeon.

[Debatra]

Hey, what is the url to go directly to the latest comic? I moved my bookmarks around and somehow my OOTS bookmark goes to 1222.

There isn't one.

[JonahFalcon]

"Exact number of additional shinies to be determined at a later date." :biggrin:

[MoiMagnus]

Hey, what is the url to go directly to the latest comic? I moved my bookmarks around and somehow my OOTS bookmark goes to 1222.

There isn't one direct, but https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots.html works quite well as a bookmark

[WanderingMist]

Not really; none of the members of Team Evil have the Trapfinding ability. Unless they decide to use Detect Magic or something they might never figure it out, though once they do it's only a Greater Dispel Magic away from being suppressed.

Serini's probably smart enough to prepare against that though; that spell is literally a cantrip. The traps could be masked with something like Magic Aura or something, I guess, but I doubt that's the only thing.
Detect Magic is a 1st level spell, isn't it?

Looks like the Order now has a tunnel to explore.

Would Divination on the trap let a guardian monitor the crossings, in addition to showing the portal destination as if it were just a regular tunnel?

Unfortunately, the Order demonstrating such competence means that, at least by standard tropes, the villains will probably become that much more competent as well... :P
Actually, I don't think so. At the beginning of the comic, the Order was just a group thrown together and all with wildly varying goals, while Team Evil were all on the same page. Now the Order's got everyone getting along swimmingly and Team Evil is cracking at the seams.

Bravo! This is the first time I've laughed -- really laughed -- at an OOTS strip in a long time. Blackwing's punchline cracked me up.

So now we know it's a teleportation trap much like the never-ending corridor in Wizardry I: Proving Grounds of the mad overlord (The corridor was actually 40' long, but there was a teleportation trap at 30' which sent you back to 10', so if you just walked down it you'd walk forever and never get anywhere).

This also tells us that the MITD's marking of additional doors did not help or hinder Team Evil, since they were always travelling to a decoy corridor anyway. Nonetheless, the attempt definitely counts towards a good alignment, since ze was attempting to hinder the evil villains in the most efficient way the MITD knew.

Respectfully,

Brian P.
It might hinder them a bit when they realize how to actually get through the doors, if they ever do, since they'd have to start again from the beginning.

As usual Blackwing is the best.:smallbiggrin:
Flap Flap Flap.



Tree Seeing?
A very useful spell if you have to navigate a forest.:smalltongue:
Useless if you want to spot the forest itself.

But there is something that doesn't make sense on the drawings. On panel #14, viewed from Blackwing, the scorch mark is only on the door-side; meaning that in the tunnel #2 there is no scorch mark on the not-door-side. On panel #18, viewed from Roy's head, there is a scorch mark on the not-door-side — but that's the not-door-side of of tunnel #2, since we can see Blackwing.

Either the scorch mark should be on Blackwing's side as well on panel #14, or it should not be there on panel #18. We could imagine logical reasons for the scorch mark to be there or not, but it should be consistent.

That's not an error. It just means Blackwing had already gotten back past the portal by the time Roy poked his head through the other side, since we know he essentially turned around immediately.

[Draconi Redfir]

The trap was disabled, so the order wasn't transported anywhere. Xykon was - they saw him vanish before their eyes.

It is a little confusing because Roy pokes his head out and sees a dead end before saying that, but he was sticking his head through the teleporter, so he was seeing the fake dungeon.

That doesn't really explain the floor suddenly changing colour though, or how Roy isn't able to return to the door while Blackwing can.

plus the way Redcloak and the others vanish through the barrier makes it look like the Order are the ones in a different location while team evil is just walking through.


idk, it's all super confusing and probably doesn't matter in the end. two different tunnels, that seems to be all that matters.

[Bisqwit]

That's not an error. It just means Blackwing had already gotten back past the portal by the time Roy poked his head through the other side, since we know he essentially turned around immediately.
That theory has two implications:
1. The portal presents a mirror image of what’s through
2. Panel 9 in the second section shows someone other than Blackwing passing through the portal.
I think an art error is more plausible.

[Ruck]

I think some of you misunderstand the traps.

Redcloak and Xykon and Oona know about the teleportation traps behind every door. They could have detected its magic, or Oona could have told them, because they're common knowledge among the bugbear town who lives from hunting in those dungeons.

Source? This sounds like you're making an assumption that is the exact opposite of what we've been shown.

[Frogwarrior]

So the halfling rogue from the backstory pulled a super clever trick, making it SEEM like it was a Strength Dungeon in honor of Kraagor, but only a clever rogue can see through the deception.
I'm guessing all (?) of the "real" tunnels actually lead to the facility with the Gate, although there's probably more shenanigans in the way. And every one of the "fake" monster tunnels is a dead end.

[Iakus]

I think Blackwing may be the smartest member of the group, as far as having both Intelligence AND Wisdom...

[Darth Paul]

That doesn't really explain the floor suddenly changing colour though, or how Roy isn't able to return to the door while Blackwing can.

plus the way Redcloak and the others vanish through the barrier makes it look like the Order are the ones in a different location while team evil is just walking through.


The "one-way teleport trap" is an oldie but a goodie among my group. I first used it in one of my dungeons back in the mid-1980s.

Does that technically make it a century old? :smallconfused:


But there is something that doesn't make sense on the drawings. On panel #14, viewed from Blackwing, the scorch mark is only on the door-side; meaning that in the tunnel #2 there is no scorch mark on the not-door-side. On panel #18, viewed from Roy's head, there is a scorch mark on the not-door-side — but that's the not-door-side of of tunnel #2, since we can see Blackwing.

Either the scorch mark should be on Blackwing's side as well on panel #14, or it should not be there on panel #18. We could imagine logical reasons for the scorch mark to be there or not, but it should be consistent.

In #14, Blackwing has flown through the teleport barrier into a different corridor, so there's no scorch mark on his side; but he can still see back through it from that side, so half the mark is visible. In #18, Roy now has his head poked through into the dead end corridor, so there's no scorch mark on that side, but the opposite half is visible.

In all the other panels featuring the OOTS, they are the only ones who can see both sides of the teleport barrier and both parts of the corridor that they walked through, so they can see both halves of the scorch mark.

[pearl jam]

That theory has two implications:
1. The portal presents a mirror image of what’s through
2. Panel 9 in the second section shows someone other than Blackwing passing through the portal.
I think an art error is more plausible.

I think the divination shows the same view regardless of which side of the projection you view it from: the area leading from the door they all entered to the trap with the scorch mark.

When we see Roy's head poke through the projection, we're just observing the same thing that V and the rest of the party are observing from the other side, flipped around because we're seeing the image from the "back" so the scorch mark is on the left from our point of view and the right from the point of view of the OOTS.

[Bisqwit]

I think the divination shows the same view regardless of which side of the projection you view it from: the area leading from the door they all entered to the trap with the scorch mark.
Nonetheless, the view with the half scorch mark on the floor is mirrored between panels 3 and 5 in the second part. In panel 3 (and 4 and 6), it is on the right side. In panel 5, it is on the left side. So either there is mirroring happening on (in which case the exit blur in panel 9 remains unexplained) or it’s an art error.

[pearl jam]

Nonetheless, the view with the half scorch mark on the floor is mirrored between panels 3 and 5 in the second part. In panel 3 (and 4 and 6), it is on the right side. In panel 5, it is on the left side. So either there is mirroring happening on (in which case the exit blur in panel 9 remains unexplained) or it’s an art error.

I added some more clarification to my explanation, if that helps.

[Darth Paul]

Nonetheless, the view with the half scorch mark on the floor is mirrored between panels 3 and 5 in the second part. In panel 3 (and 4 and 6), it is on the right side. In panel 5, it is on the left side. So either there is mirroring happening on (in which case the exit blur in panel 9 remains unexplained) or it’s an art error.

Zooming in (240% on my screen), the mark looks about the same as everywhere else; it's just from an unusual angle. There's actually a very faint line visible that marks the line of the teleport spell. I don't think it's an exit blur. It does have a slightly different shape compared to the rest of the panels, though.

[BruceGee]

I think some of you misunderstand the traps.

Redcloak and Xykon and Oona know about the teleportation traps behind every door. They could have detected its magic, or Oona could have told them, because they're common knowledge among the bugbear town who lives from hunting in those dungeons.

Team Evil is not in a “fake dungeon”. They're in one of the real dungeons where the teleportation traps lead them, with lots of “cool stuff to murder” (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1222.html) aka “the nastiest monsters of the world” (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html). These are the dungeons that Oona was talking about: “Hunt a little, tame a little. Wait, then monsters come back, start all over.” (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html) One of those dungeons also hides Kraagor's Gate.

The Order bypassed the trap, and are now in a short tunnel that was originally behind the trap that has nothing interesting in it. No monsters, and definitely no Kraagor's Gate. The bugbear community, Xykon and Redcloak has already bypassed these traps a few times, saw the short uninteresting tunnels, and know that they have nothing interesting in them.



I agree that this would be the smartest and most secure method of hiding the gate forSerini. However, I do not think that Serini is very smart (as others have noted re: her Journal). Perhaps Oona and the bugbears know about the traps but saw no reason to inform Redcloak and Xykon.

Also, the Order finding that they are in a dead-end tunnel would not be very dramatic, and this is a universe where the laws of drama reign. Disabling the same trap on hundreds of tunnels seems rather tedious, and tedium isn't what Serini is all about either.

My prediction is that all of the real tunnels (accessible only when their traps are disabled) lead to the same place: a very large room with many tunnels joining together, the Gate, and two or more Very Impressive Defenders.

I also think they lucked out that Redcloak didn't notice the half burn mark on the way in (possibly it was shielded by Oona and the warg) and will probably notice in on the way out, kneel down and see the rune trap, and he or Xykon will then dispell it. So the Order has bought themselves a bit of time, but TE will be breathing down their necks soon enough.

[Yirggzmb]

That doesn't really explain the floor suddenly changing colour though, or how Roy isn't able to return to the door while Blackwing can.

plus the way Redcloak and the others vanish through the barrier makes it look like the Order are the ones in a different location while team evil is just walking through.


idk, it's all super confusing and probably doesn't matter in the end. two different tunnels, that seems to be all that matters.



My theory on the floor is that the teleporter/portal thing is also teleporting all the dust in the air and sunlight etc, plus generations of bugbears going in and out, thus discoloring the entrance and the "teleported to" dungeon equally. The tunnel the Order is in, then, wouldn't be discolored the same because nothing goes in there.

If the portal/teleport is two way, it makes sense to me. If the portal is on, when you walk into the tunnel and past it, you get teleported. Then when you go to exit the tunnel, you walk through the portal again and get teleported again to the exit where you expect. So when Blackwing entered and exited, he was using the portal as intended.
Meanwhile, Roy and the others bypassed it by temporarily disabling it. Now it's active again. So when Roy pokes his head in, the portal is active and takes him to the same dungeon Xykon and co are in, just on the other side of the invisible magic wall. In this case, that happens to be a dead end. To get out again, I expect the order would have to temporarily disable the portal again so they can pass through without being affected. (or find some other way out after exploring where they are)

And to me, it looked like Team Evil was being affected by the magic rather than the other way around. But then, I also don't expect Rich to be trying to misdirect us here. I don't see much narrative point to specifically saying the opposite of what's really going on, but of course I could always be wrong.

[Draconi Redfir]

The "one-way teleport trap" is an oldie but a goodie among my group. I first used it in one of my dungeons back in the mid-1980s.

Does that technically make it a century old? :smallconfused:


im starting to feel like the "trap" that Haley found was less of a "Trap" and more of a "Test". She didn't DISable it, she ENabled it, allowing the Order to travel through and be sent to the new location before it reset. It's a doorway that's designed to look like a trap, and only opens when someone attempts to disable it, when in reality it's completely harmless and doesn't do anything. That'd explain why Roy sees a dead end when he pokes his head through the barrier, he's seeing the real other side of it, with the barrier itself presenting as either side of the actual hallway.

edit: Although, the floor is still different in the dead end too... not sure what that's about.




And to me, it looked like Team Evil was being affected by the magic rather than the other way around. But then, I also don't expect Rich to be trying to misdirect us here. I don't see much narrative point to specifically saying the opposite of what's really going on, but of course I could always be wrong.

i'm kind of seeing it like the whole "living person walks through a ghost and doesn't realize it" kind of thing. The Order are in a new location, but have a window to the starting point. the window is incorporeal and two-dimensional, so team evil simply walks through it. Since the window itself is only two-dimensional, anything that travels past it's threshold appears to vanish in thin air, as it's no longer visible from the window.

[slp0001]

Weird, it seems like even the latest comic is hidden behind a divination effect on my end! When I'm on #1222, I can't see that there is another comic, and the next button does nothing, but going back one page to #1221 shows the link to #1223. Is that a bug, or a clever easter egg?

[BarakDeathBlade]

I think the divination shows the same view regardless of which side of the projection you view it from: the area leading from the door they all entered to the trap with the scorch mark.


This makes sense, if you're Serini and know about the "real" dungeon, or find your way into it somehow like the Order, there is a huge advantage to being able to see the "fake" dungeon. They can watch the entrance from where they are, or could camp out in the "dead end" to wait for Team Evil to leave, maybe hitting them when they are at their weakest? I mean they'd see Team Evil leave either way, but camping out in the dead end gives a couple more rounds of warning.

Note to self: Go to dead end, and look back, before bypassing the trap and leaving the "real" dungeon. You'll live longer...

[BarakDeathBlade]

Also, floor color:

Knowledge (Architecture) anyone?

[Yirggzmb]

i'm kind of seeing it like the whole "living person walks through a ghost and doesn't realize it" kind of thing. The Order are in a new location, but have a window to the starting point. the window is incorporeal and two-dimensional, so team evil simply walks through it. Since the window itself is only two-dimensional, anything that travels past it's threshold appears to vanish in thin air, as it's no longer visible from the window.

Admittedly, I'm also leaning towards "The Order's got it figured out: Team Evil went through the portal, not the Order" because of how each team has described the dungeon.

Team Evil goes in, and when they exit they describe the place as complex, "with many twistings and turnings". Glad that no one had to draw that.

Meanwhile, Roy looks at how many doors there are so close together, uses his Knowledge(architecture), and concludes that the only way each door could lead to a distinct dungeon is if each one is a straight hallway.

So Team Evil being taken somewhere else makes more sense to me than the Order being taken somewhere else. Because if the actual tunnel behind the door is where Team Evil is, then both team's assessments can't be true. But if the actual tunnel behind the door is where the Order is, then both can be right.

[elros]

I love how Belkar is essentially the audience.
Agree, it's always a challenge for creators to explain what is happening in their world, so it helps to have the clueless character ask the questions for us.

[Draconi Redfir]

Team Evil goes in, and when they exit they describe the place as complex, "with many twistings and turnings". Glad that no one had to draw that.

Meanwhile, Roy looks at how many doors there are so close together, uses his Knowledge(architecture), and concludes that the only way each door could lead to a distinct dungeon is if each one is a straight hallway.

So Team Evil being taken somewhere else makes more sense to me than the Order being taken somewhere else. Because if the actual tunnel behind the door is where Team Evil is, then both team's assessments can't be true. But if the actual tunnel behind the door is where the Order is, then both can be right.


ohhhh, that's right, that does make sense. silly me, i had already theorized that the doors lead to different locations because of the description of the stone. "multi phasic" or "dimensional" or something long ago too.

i guess the "Dead end" roy saw was what was really behind team evil and blackwing, rather then what was behind his own portal.

the colour changing floor is still odd, but i guess the dust collection thing could explain that.

[GreatWyrmGold]

1. it's good to see how much love Blackwing gets despite there being a whole thread about how he is a „mistake” with flat jokes;
...what?



There's being terminally stupid, and there's being stupid enough to have your location holding the cosmic underpants of the universe up defeated by a literal cantrip. I'm not sure if even early-OotS Elan was that stupid.
I'm not sure if there's a sweet spot where you're smart enough to (successfully) defend such a cosmically critical location and foolish enough to forget about detect magic.




Well, I sure hope somebody picks up that phone.
Because I called it!People having literally been calling this since last year. :smalltongue:
1. That's not saying much, it's January.
2. Whoever owns that phone is really busy, let's not bother them.



Remember in 428 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0428.html), when Xykon pulled a shell game on the Azurites?

Problem is, all this time everyone's been falling for the shell game... including the Monster in the Darkness. It's been attempting to sabotage Team Evil's progress by marking extra doors, but Xkyon knows how to run a shell game. Which means that he's bound to figure out what's going on sooner or later... and MitD has inadvertently made it so that moment will arrive sooner, rather than later.
The thing about shell games is, there's a whole bunch of places the stone could be hiding—the Order only solved Xykon's so quickly because his undead dragon happened to be flying by within earshot. Figuring out that you're playing a shell game only tells you where the stone isn't.

Moreover, the MitD accidentally provided perfect cover for a shell game. Assume that Team Evil marks off every door before MitD blows his cover; Team Evil will realize something's off, and will start trying to figure out what. Which are they more likely to suspect—that they've missed multiple teleports per day, or that something's wrong with the marks on the door, which they already suspect?[/irl]



I remain unconvinced that the Order's theories are correct. It's possible but I'm not going to count on it.
And what say you to the fact that they've gathered evidence supporting those theories?



Team Evil is not in a “fake dungeon”. They're in one of the real dungeons where the teleportation traps lead them, with lots of [url=https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1222.html]“cool stuff to murder” (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1222.html) aka “the nastiest monsters of the world” (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html). These are the dungeons that Oona was talking about: “Hunt a little, tame a little. Wait, then monsters come back, start all over.” (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1039.html) One of those dungeons also hides Kraagor's Gate.
That last sentence is a baffling assertion. Why do you think that Serini is teleporting people to separate dungeons which contain the Gate? Remember, she's trying to stop people from finding it, and a teleportation trap which is so easy to miss doesn't make sense as an addition unless it's meant to make finding the Gate harder.



That doesn't really explain the floor suddenly changing colour though, or how Roy isn't able to return to the door while Blackwing can.

plus the way Redcloak and the others vanish through the barrier makes it look like the Order are the ones in a different location while team evil is just walking through.
1. I assume Serini painted (or otherwise recolored) the stone outside the portal to match the place she portaled the tunnel to.
2. Roy can't return to the door because he's on the wrong side of the portal.
3. Team Evil looks like they vanished because they were visible, and then they weren't. The divination thing V mentioned is one-way.



The "one-way teleport trap" is an oldie but a goodie among my group. I first used it in one of my dungeons back in the mid-1980s.

Does that technically make it a century old? :smallconfused:
...I wasn't alive during the 1980's, but I'm pretty sure they were only 30-40 years ago, not a hundred? :smallconfused:



im starting to feel like the "trap" that Haley found was less of a "Trap" and more of a "Test". She didn't DISable it, she ENabled it, allowing the Order to travel through and be sent to the new location before it reset. It's a doorway that's designed to look like a trap, and only opens when someone attempts to disable it, when in reality it's completely harmless and doesn't do anything.
Three big problems.
1. Simplicity. Magical traps are something well-established in both D&D and this comic, but that kind of reverse trap—one that is disguised so well that even a high-level rogue can't detect the deception—isn't.
2. I don't think it's possible to create something that looks like a functional trap, which can only be disabled one way, and that one way is secretly a switch to an invisible something-else. The middle clause is the biggest red flag; there are a thousand ways to skin a cat, but only one way to grow one.
3. Various details point to something being up with the dungeons in this mountain. You know, like how there are too many doors in the wall for there to be an entire dungeon behind each, and how Roy specifically remarks on this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1203.html). You don't have your characters point out something that doesn't make sense unless it's supposed to not make sense.

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

I think the scorch mark on panel #18 is indeed an art error. If I understood the theory correctly, there should be no scorch marks whatsoever from that point of view. Half of the mark is on the floor next to the door, and the other half is on the floor where OotS is standing right now. In panel #18, we see the other two places: the dead end (which correctly shows no scorch marks) and the corridor Team Evil (and Blackwing) went through, where there is also no scorch mark (as seen on panel #14).

edit: Also, notice the subtle teleportation effect behind Roy on panel #20, indicating Blackwing passing through the portal back to safety.

[WanderingMist]

I think the scorch mark on panel #18 is indeed an art error. If I understood the theory correctly, there should be no scorch marks whatsoever from that point of view. Half of the mark is on the floor next to the door, and the other half is on the floor where OotS is standing right now. In panel #18, we see the other two places: the dead end (which correctly shows no scorch marks) and the corridor Team Evil (and Blackwing) went through, where there is also no scorch mark (as seen on panel #14).

edit: Also, notice the subtle teleportation effect behind Roy on panel #20, indicating Blackwing passing through the portal back to safety.

And there wouldn't be because...? If you're hiding in the dead end, you want to see out to the door. Blackwing isn't in Team Evil's teleported dungeon in that panel. He's back out at the front entrance, having immediately left the corridor Team Evil was in. The scorch mark not being there would be an error. The teleportation mark behind Roy is because Roy stuck his head through the portal.

[tanonev]

For those claiming that Redcloak should have noticed the trap with Detect Magic by now: Xykon was willing to ditch the rest of Team Evil to start down the dungeon after waiting for maybe 1 round. Do you really think he would have allowed Redcloak to spend 3 rounds staring at an area to figure out what auras exist, then move on a bit, then repeat? Or would he have walked straight through the Detect Magic cone and messed up the aura count with his own dozen or so auras from magic items and active spells?

Detect Magic is a cantrip, yes, but it's an unwieldy cantrip that is generally only useful if you have a specific thing you're trying to investigate, e.g., V scanning the runes that Haley previously spotted (and here I will voice my support of the idea that the theme of Serini's dungeon is teamwork). It is not good for a general sweep of a dungeon, especially since you have to dismiss it (stop concentrating on it) to take any action. This is why Arcane Sight exists, but that's not on Redcloak's spell list, and it probably isn't on Xykon's either.

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

And there wouldn't be because...? If you're hiding in the dead end, you want to see out to the door. Blackwing isn't in Team Evil's teleported dungeon in that panel. He's back out at the front entrance, having immediately left the corridor Team Evil was in. The scorch mark not being there would be an error. The teleportation mark behind Roy is because Roy stuck his head through the portal.

Because to me he is in the corridor that Team Evil teleported to. I don't think Blackwing is back at the entrance before the portal, precisely because there is that white glow in panel #20. That glow only happens when someone is effectively touching or going through the portal, there is no "after glow". Roy is clearly back, not touching it at all. And there is also panel #19, with no white glow at all, when Roy has already returned.

I'm positive that this white glow on panel #20 is caused by Blackwing crossing the portal back to the door and outside the dungeon.

[M1982]

I'm pretty sure that's the case. A better question is whether disarming the trap permanently (instead of bypassing it) would trap Team Evil in the tunnel they entered or not.

Even if it would block the only intended exit, they're high level spellcasters and can just teleport out on their own power as soon as they realized that there's somehow no way out.

[drtsoni]

I just have a theory, so I'll try to explain this as well and as simply as I can...

Physical reality:
- REAL DOOR -----> REAL DUNGEON
- DEAD END -----> FAKE DUNGEON

The portal transports things and vision:
- REAL DOOR --||--> FAKE DUNGEON
- REAL DOOR <--||-- FAKE DUNGEON

Haley disabled the portal so the party went:
- REAL DOOR -----> REAL DUNGEON

From REAL DUNGEON, they still see the REAL DOOR, which means: The back side of the portal has no scrying effect (i.e. It's just a transparent screen).

Roy crosses the re-activated portal and went:
- DEAD END <--||-- REAL DUNGEON

Now we're on the back side of the portal on the FAKE plane. If the transparent screen rule still applies, then from the DEAD END looking through the (should be transparent) portal, we should see the FAKE DUNGEON. Indeed, Roy saw Blackwing's back. I made a handy diagram of this moment...

https://i.imgur.com/QiLU6uk.png

Now onto the issue with the scorch mark on #18. We know that the explosion happened on the REAL plane, because we saw the scorch mark both on the REAL DOOR side (before and after the portal reactivated) and the REAL DUNGEON side (where party is now). We also know that the explosion did NOT happen on the FAKE plane because we do not see the scorch mark on the DEAD END side (when Roy poked through) or the FAKE DUNGEON side (when Blackwing flew through the portal after Xykon). And yet, on #18, we can see the scorch mark below Blackwing even though there was no scorch mark below BW in the previous panel.

Assuming that this was not an error, maybe this is a mixed reality where both the REAL DUNGEON and the FAKE DUNGEON are combined? That you need to do something in both the REAL and FAKE dungeons, then enter the mixed reality from the DEAD END to find the Gate?

[Someone101]

I agree with what everyone's been saying; either scorch mark you see from the dead end is an error or things don't work like we think they do. To prove it (and to help people who are still struggling) I put together a visual demonstration of how the portal works (show spoilers to see the images):

The two rooms are set up like this:
https://i.imgur.com/GbG23hi.png
A, B, C, and D are four different observers. The colored lines on either side of the portal show where you will travel to when you enter the portal from that direction. The black side transmits images (via the scrying spell), and the red side does not. The yellow splotch represents the scorch mark that was made when the portals were "off", the green box is an object traveling through the black side, and the blue box is an object traveling through the red side.


What person A would see:
https://i.imgur.com/ZPDIGi5.png
We see in the comic that this is true; Person B and the different floor color cannot be seen, the scorch mark is only on the door-side of the line, and since TE never figured it out, we can infer that people didn't disappear from sight or appear cut off upon entering the portal from A's point of view (I highly doubt they were all in a row every time they entered a dungeon).


What person B would see:
https://i.imgur.com/4MzggOc.png
This was observed in the previous strip; the floor is a different color on the far side of the line, people coming in from the door are visible, but anything that crosses the line (from either direction) appears to get cut off.


What person C should see:
https://i.imgur.com/vOvArmL.png
This is almost what we see; Roy's torso is invisible past the line, he can see Blackwing (who's in person D's spot in the panel), and the floor is the same color as it is by the door. The only difference is that he can see the scorch-mark on Blackwing's side. Since Blackwing can't see the scorch-mark on that side, then we know that if the portal is not transmitting images in this direction, the scorch-mark is an error. If, however, the portal is transmitting images from this direction, then person C should be seeing this:
https://i.imgur.com/mnm8zq3.png
Everything except the scorch mark (and the dead end) is wrong; he should see everything on the real-dungeon side of the room, he shouldn't appear to be cut off, and Blackwing shouldn't be visible. But the dead end and the way the scorch mark is cut off would be correct.


And just for completeness' sake, what person D would see:
https://i.imgur.com/WBuK6kW.png
Again, we can observe that when Blackwing crosses the line, this is what he sees.


Hopefully Rich either corrects that panel, or blows our minds by revealing that it doesn't work like we were thinking at all! Also, I hope this helps clarify things for everyone who was struggling to wrap their heads around this concept.

[Just Helping]

Just wanted to point out, the scorch mark is actually from Haley's rat skull. (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1220.html) It seems that both sides of the actual trap were scorched as a result of whatever she did to keep it from teleporting them. Notice that the mark is absent in panel 8, but shows up in panel 10.

EDIT: To clarify, I mean that the scorch was made to keep the trap from re-triggering long enough for people to cross -- so no teleportation would be possible to displace the scorching.

[b_jonas]

Source? This sounds like you're making an assumption that is the exact opposite of what we've been shown. It's all assumptions, yes. Perhaps the comic will later show that I'm wrong. I'm basing it on that Xykon is an epic lich sorcerer who has boasted about his racial bonuses to perception checks, Redcloak is pretty good understanding magic too, they figured out how to activate the rune in Dorukan's dungeon, and there's a whole community of bugbears who hunt in the dungeons, so it would be pretty surprising if all of them missed the traps. But I don't see how any of this is the opposite of what we've been shown.


That last sentence is a baffling assertion. Why do you think that Serini is teleporting people to separate dungeons which contain the Gate? Remember, she's trying to stop people from finding it, and a teleportation trap which is so easy to miss doesn't make sense as an addition unless it's meant to make finding the Gate harder. Firstly, probably only one of those dungeons contain the gate. You still have to find which one it is, and then get past the mighty guardian monsters.

Secondly, there seems to be some narrative force or rule so that dungeon makers can't make an impossible dungeon. There has to be some path to the end prize of the dungeon. You see this in every story or video game with dungeons. It's not easy to give an in-universe reason for this. You can say that the Order of the Scribble themselves need to get to the Gates to occasionally patch up the rifts before they get serious, but this doesn't really explain everything. Dorukan can build magical doors that only open if three people with a pure heart touch three signs simultaneously, and Xykon can't just break the doors down with a big axe, but he couldn't just build magical doors that never open. Girard can build a pyramid with traps covered by illusions, but he can't just build a pyramid where the path to the Gate is completely blocked off by solid rock. Serini can bring the mightiest monsters, but he has to leave some theoretical way for strong enough villains to get in.


3. Various details point to something being up with the dungeons in this mountain. You know, like how there are too many doors in the wall for there to be an entire dungeon behind each, and how Roy specifically remarks on this (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1203.html). Oh yeah, I forgot about Roy's remark in #1203 fifth panel. That said, our explanation for that before #1222 was “built up out of multidimensional stone” (#1041 third panel) (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1040.html).

[Linneris]

Detect Magic is a 1st level spell, isn't it?

In 5e, it is. In 3.5e, it's a cantrip.

[bunsen_h]

And what say you to the fact that they've gathered evidence supporting those theories?

That there are other theories that are at least as consistent with the evidence we've seen so far. My preferred theory is that there are several sections of corridors and rooms in the multidimensional stone, and that the "trap" (1) changes how they're connected, and (2) in the sections that the Order are in, projects illusions/images of the contents of the other sections. There's no teleporting involved anywhere in this setup; among other things, it's likely to be detected. No portals, either.

When the "trap" was tampered with, the spatial connection changed much more quickly than the blast to the osquip skull caused the scorching on the floor. Flash! followed by the puff of smoke. As a result, what got marked up is the corridor right by the doorway, and the floor where the Order are now, which was temporarily connected to that corridor but isn't any longer.

We know that the area is built of "multidimensional stone"; all that we know for sure about the properties of "multidimensional stone" is that it prevents ghostform transit. We know that something weird is going on in terms of things moving from one place to another. I'm suggesting that the simplest explanation is that the weird moving-from-place-to-place stuff is another effect tied to the multidimensional properties of the stone.

[danielxcutter]

In 5e, it is. In 3.5e, it's a cantrip.

Technically a few prestige classes end up getting it as a 1st-level spell, but yeah.

[ebarde]

I think I'm starting to understand this puzzle. This is the part where someone comes in and takes out half of the doors and tells you to pick one again.

[Ruck]

It's all assumptions, yes. Perhaps the comic will later show that I'm wrong. I'm basing it on that Xykon is an epic lich sorcerer who has boasted about his racial bonuses to perception checks, Redcloak is pretty good understanding magic too, they figured out how to activate the rune in Dorukan's dungeon, and there's a whole community of bugbears who hunt in the dungeons, so it would be pretty surprising if all of them missed the traps. But I don't see how any of this is the opposite of what we've been shown.

People have made the point that traps can't be detected by anyone but thieves, and while you may assume "it would be pretty surprising if all of them missed the traps," it's just as plausible at least to assume "it would be pretty surprising if any of the bugbears were high-level enough to detect and successfully disarm a trap." As far as Team Evil goes, if they don't have anyone who can detect a trap, then they can't detect it. And if they have no reason to think there's any trap there, there's no reason for them to burn a Detect Magic at the entrance of every dungeon. (Let alone any of the other reasons people have suggested they wouldn't spend time doing that.)

It makes far more sense that, based on how the dungeon appears to be laid out-- as Roy mentioned, there's no way for all of those doors to have the kind of "visually complex" "twistings and turnings" Team Evil has encountered-- and assuming the gate location is correct (since all of the gate locations in Serini's diary have been correct, and Kraagor's statue is right there, this seems reasonable)-- the trap teleports anyone who crosses it to a wild-goose-chase dungeon. Your thesis requires assuming the opposite, that disabling the trap teleports the Order but not Team Evil. Either that or it requires assuming Serini set up the gate so not disabling the trap was the only way to get to the gate, which just doesn't make sense.

[Squeeq]

I'm a little confused by the other-sides of the trap, but I assume that it doesn't care which direction you walk in from, it'll spit you out on the 'other' channel when you walk through it. If you can bypass it on the way in you can bypass it on the way out! I'm dying to see what's actually DOWN the corridor, which we have scrupulously not been shown.

I wonder, considering that the barbarian in question was a dwarf, if Durkon's stone cunning is going to be a vital piece of the puzzle too, something that Redcloak and Xykon wouldn't likely have access to. If they *had* crossed the trap, would Durkon have instantly known that they weren't where they were supposed to be?

Also, Redcloak used true seeing, but there isn't an ILLUSION there, it's a DIVINATION that shows you where you're going, so true seeing wouldn't bypass it. The confidence of having the true seeing spell available and up is probably what made them skip the cantrips. Redcloak even says "Scanning for illusions," but you don't need an illusion to fool someone when you can have the truth fool them instead.

Mechanically, could the magical trap function as a sort of magical item, which can't be destroyed by a dispelling?

[Metastachydium]

...what?


I'm not the one who made it, but it's there (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?625408-Blackwing-was-a-mistake).

[hungrycrow]

It's all assumptions, yes. Perhaps the comic will later show that I'm wrong. I'm basing it on that Xykon is an epic lich sorcerer who has boasted about his racial bonuses to perception checks, Redcloak is pretty good understanding magic too, they figured out how to activate the rune in Dorukan's dungeon, and there's a whole community of bugbears who hunt in the dungeons, so it would be pretty surprising if all of them missed the traps. But I don't see how any of this is the opposite of what we've been shown.
If they knew about the trap, they would certainly have noticed the half scorch mark on the ground and realized where the order went.

[The Pilgrim]

That doesn't really explain the floor suddenly changing colour though, or how Roy isn't able to return to the door while Blackwing can.

Why, both are teleported exactly the same way. Both are teleported from Dungeon (A) to Dungeon (B), and then from Dungeon (B) to Dungeon (A). But as they enter the portal from opposite sides, they logically end in different sides of the portal.

Blackwing enters the portal:
-----------
D b-> @ R (DUNGEON A)
-----------
-----------
| @-> b (DUNGEON B)
-----------

Roy enters the portal:
-----------
D @ <-R (DUNGEON A)
-----------
-----------
| R <-@ b (DUNGEON B)
-----------

Roy goes back:
-----------
| R-> @ b (DUNGEON B)
-----------
-----------
D @-> R (DUNGEON A)
-----------

Blackwing goes back:
-----------
| @ <-b (DUNGEON B)
-----------
-----------
D b <-@ R (DUNGEON A)
-----------

D= Door
@ = Portal
R = Roy
b = Blackwing
-> = direction of movement
| = Dead End
--- = Cave walls

[Corneel]

So to simplify, the most plausible situation for this is:

Physically the Door end (EA) connects to the Mystery Tunnel (TA), where the order are and the Dead End EB connects to the Monster Tunnel (TB) Team Evil entered.

There are two magical effects
- The first is the "switch" which is some kind of teleportation trap. When the switch is active it connects EA to TB and EB to TA. Normally the switch is active. If the switch is dis-activated, then we go back to the physical connections. (EA to TA and EB to TB)
- The second is the "cover". This is some kind of Divination spell (Clairvoyance-like) that makes it that from EA you look into TB and vice versa.

Dis-activating the switch does not dis-activate the cover, which remains in place. This explains why we see people "disappearing" even if they step in to TA from EA, which are physically connected, when the switch is dis-activated.

Now this is the situation for this door.

The question now is how this works for multiple doors. Is there a set of A & B behind each door, or does each door only have a fixed A and do the effects cycle through different B tunnels, or do multiple doors share a B (or even all doors share a B and the randomising of monster lairs happens further down the line).

[Lex]

I'm still a bit bothered by the fact that apparently nobody never questioned the impossible geometry of the dungeon nor managed to find a trap that Haley (who hasn't even her search skill maxed) discovered at her first try (I know about the whole only rogues can find magical traps, but I find equally disappointing that there apparently isn't a single rogue in the village nor anyone bothered casting the Find traps spell, which is level 2 for clerics), so part of me still hopes that the real dungeon that leads to the gate is the one you enter through teleport and Team Evil is actually aware of the trap.
Still, I don't think Rich would have gone to such lenght in showing and explaining how the dungeon works if there isn't going something significant in the tunnel the Order is, so I guess they are going to find either the gate or someone/something else crucial to the story.

[b_jonas]

People have made the point that traps can't be detected by anyone but thieves, and while you may assume "it would be pretty surprising if all of them missed the traps," it's just as plausible at least to assume "it would be pretty surprising if any of the bugbears were high-level enough to detect and successfully disarm a trap." As far as Team Evil goes, if they don't have anyone who can detect a trap, then they can't detect it. And if they have no reason to think there's any trap there, there's no reason for them to burn a Detect Magic at the entrance of every dungeon.

and assuming the gate location is correct (since all of the gate locations in Serini's diary have been correct, and Kraagor's statue is right there, this seems reasonable) You do have a valid point about how only rogues are any good at disabling traps. But does that apply to detecting traps too? I assumed that both Xykon and Redcloak would be able to detect that there's a trap here, beacuse Xykon can see through illusions and Redcloak just cast True seeing, so they'd notice that the scrying effect projects a different dungeon than what they enter. Perhaps they might not be able to disarm the trap, at least not as easily as Haley, but they wouldn't just never notice it. And I did assume that every door has the same kind of trap, simply because Roy suspects that in #1219.

But as for Serini's diary, I don't think that's an obstacle. The diary won't give a precise enough location to distinguish between the hidden dungeons where the teleport trap leads and the entrance, it certainly won't tell which door or hidden dungeon is the correct one. In fact the diary will probably not even point to the hidden dungeons, but to the entrances that let you teleport in, because that's how you give useful guidance. Nobody other than Ganonron could Epic teleport directly into the hidden dungeons from just a description.

[hamishspence]

There is Wish - but it costs XP:

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm

Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

[danielxcutter]

You do have a valid point about how only rogues are any good at disabling traps. But does that apply to detecting traps too? I assumed that both Xykon and Redcloak would be able to detect that there's a trap here, beacuse Xykon can see through illusions and Redcloak just cast True seeing, so they'd notice that the scrying effect projects a different dungeon than what they enter. Perhaps they might not be able to disarm the trap, at least not as easily as Haley, but they wouldn't just never notice it. And I did assume that every door has the same kind of trap, simply because Roy suspects that in #1219.

But as for Serini's diary, I don't think that's an obstacle. The diary won't give a precise enough location to distinguish between the hidden dungeons where the teleport trap leads and the entrance, it certainly won't tell which door or hidden dungeon is the correct one. In fact the diary will probably not even point to the hidden dungeons, but to the entrances that let you teleport in, because that's how you give useful guidance. Nobody other than Ganonron could Epic teleport directly into the hidden dungeons from just a description.

Why would Xykon be able to see through illusions?

Also, this trap involves no illusions whatsoever; V's only detecting conjuration and divination magic. And rogues are also the only (core) class that's any good at detecting traps as well; that's the Search skill.

[Daibhid C]

You do have a valid point about how only rogues are any good at disabling traps. But does that apply to detecting traps too? I assumed that both Xykon and Redcloak would be able to detect that there's a trap here, beacuse Xykon can see through illusions and Redcloak just cast True seeing, so they'd notice that the scrying effect projects a different dungeon than what they enter. Perhaps they might not be able to disarm the trap, at least not as easily as Haley, but they wouldn't just never notice it. And I did assume that every door has the same kind of trap, simply because Roy suspects that in #1219.

The thing is, it's not an illusion. What they're seeing is where they're going; it's just not where they think they're going. The description of true seeing says:


The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces).

I don't think that means that if you're looking directly into a permenant teleport portal you can tell it's a permenant teleport portal, or can see "through" it to what's really on the other side. You see what's "really there", and what's really there is the portal and the place the portal leads to.

[b_jonas]

Vaarsuvius says in the fifth panel “Any observer remaining on the opposite side of the line would still percieve those who had passed before them – thus masking that they had already been rerouted.” I assumed that this is similar to an illusion effect enough that it would automatically not be fooled: he would see the projected image, but would know that it's a scrying image, not really behind the trap. I might be wrong though, perhaps this is something where being undead and the True seeing spell doesn't help. #1219 shows that Roy can't see the thin line even after Haley points it out, which weakly hints that Haley can only detect the trap because he's a rogue.

[danielxcutter]

Vaarsuvius says in the fifth panel “Any observer remaining on the opposite side of the line would still percieve those who had passed before them – thus masking that they had already been rerouted.” I assumed that this is similar to an illusion effect enough that it would automatically not be fooled: he would see the projected image, but would know that it's a scrying image, not really behind the trap. I might be wrong though, perhaps this is something where being undead and the True seeing spell doesn't help. #1219 shows that Roy can't see the thin line even after Haley points it out, which weakly hints that Haley can only detect the trap because he's a rogue.

Being undead has nothing whatsoever to do with this. I'm guessing you're confusing that with undead being immune to mind-affecting spells.

And True Seeing doesn't work on that either -


You confer on the subject the ability to see all things as they actually are. The subject sees through normal and magical darkness, notices secret doors hidden by magic, sees the exact locations of creatures or objects under blur or displacement effects, sees invisible creatures or objects normally, sees through illusions, and sees the true form of polymorphed, changed, or transmuted things. Further, the subject can focus its vision to see into the Ethereal Plane (but not into extradimensional spaces). The range of true seeing conferred is 120 feet.

True seeing, however, does not penetrate solid objects. It in no way confers X-ray vision or its equivalent. It does not negate concealment, including that caused by fog and the like. True seeing does not help the viewer see through mundane disguises, spot creatures who are simply hiding, or notice secret doors hidden by mundane means. In addition, the spell effects cannot be further enhanced with known magic, so one cannot use true seeing through a crystal ball or in conjunction with clairaudience/clairvoyance.

This trap is not hiding a door, does not use magical darkness, is not making things invisible, using illusions, polymorphing, changing, or transmuting anything, or involved with the Ethereal Plane so it'd do jack.

Oh, and mostly you can't really find traps without having levels in Rogue. There's the Find Traps spell, but that's about it for Core and the bonus is pretty bleh for someone who doesn't already have at least a decent Search modifier. Remember, Haley is a very high level Rogue at this point and has a decent Int modifier.

[Ghosty]

I think I'm starting to understand this puzzle. This is the part where someone comes in and takes out half of the doors and tells you to pick one again.

Not that kind of problem. (Or campaign, though Roy's Sword, and all of the parts to Durkon's Hammer, come close)

I will love it if one of the Invisible Duo asks them whether they'd like to stand pat, or choose what's behind Door #2 though. I mean, they're already wearing silly costumes....

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Ghosty]

...This trap is not hiding a door, does not use magical darkness, is not making things invisible, using illusions, polymorphing, changing, or transmuting anything, or involved with the Ethereal Plane so it'd do jack.

Oh, and mostly you can't really find traps without having levels in Rogue. There's the Find Traps spell, but that's about it for Core and the bonus is pretty bleh for someone who doesn't already have at least a decent Search modifier. Remember, Haley is a very high level Rogue at this point and has a decent Int modifier.

This. Xykon probably does have a high Search skill. Let's say he does. Unless he's a Rogue, it doesn't help him at all to see this particular trap.
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm and scroll down to the Magic Traps section.

RC can cast Find Traps, and therefore can Search like a Rogue for the spell's duration, but his Search skill is likely blah. The Bugbear Village likely has Rogues living within it, as Rogue is the favored class of their race. But they likely don't have high-level Rogues, and therefore don't likely have high Search skill. (Alternate theory: They do know about the teleport trap, but are working in concert with the Invisible Duo to hide that.)

Who knows? Maybe Xykon has known about it all along? But since he's having the most fun of his unlife, killing things, taking their stuff, and not thinking any deeper than that---exactly like the type of D&D players that The Giant has been satirizing and criticizing from the beginning of this entire strip---he hasn't bothered to point it out to RC.

[danielxcutter]

This. Xykon probably does have a high Search skill. Let's say he does. Unless he's a Rogue, it doesn't help him at all to see this particular trap.
https://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm and scroll down to the Magic Traps section.

Nitpick: Xykon probably has a horrible Search bonus. It's not a class skill and his Int bonus probably isn't that high even with age and racial bonuses.[/QUOTE]

[Shining Wrath]

Maybe ... just maybe ... figuring out the trap doesn't lead you to the Gate, but it does get you closer.

Hypothesis

Triggering the teleport trap leads you somewhere that is not very close to the Gate, physically. That's how all those doors can have twisty complex dungeons behind them
When your Rogue figures out the trap is there and bypasses it (or other methods work, like randomly casting Dispel Magic), you get to explore inside Kragor's Tomb
However, exploring inside Kragor's Tomb still won't lead you all the way to the Gate
The Gate is inside a chamber of the Dimensional Stone with no doors. To reach it, you have to guess where it is, and dig the last N feet, for medium-sized N (20? 50? something like that)



Why? Because Kragor was a dwarf fighter. And what are dwarves known for? Mining.

Serini's dungeon design, then, pays homage to teamwork (you need a Rogue or a spellcaster to even get near the Gate), Strength (you must fight large monsters on the way), and dwarves (at the end, you need a pickaxe).

[Xlsfd]

I think the chances of the Order being in the corridor that leads to the gate went up considerably. After all, since Kraagor valued strength, what would be a better display of strength than having to force your way through solid stone to reach the gate?

[BriarHobbit]

I enjoyed #1223 quite a bit. It's nice to see Blackwing have the good sense to get out of there quickly. The dynamic between Roy, V, and Blackwing is quite interesting. Roy, as leader, has no problem giving directions to members of the team. V. apparently does not like anyone else giving his familiar orders. We will see how that resolves itself.

The magic transporters are very sophisticated magic. You can't just hire a rent-a-mage to cast that kind of magic, especially for so many tunnels. I am suspecting a ring of three wishes. I suspect that this is just the first line of defense of the tomb.

[danielxcutter]

I enjoyed #1223 quite a bit. It's nice to see Blackwing have the good sense to get out of there quickly. The dynamic between Roy, V, and Blackwing is quite interesting. Roy, as leader, has no problem giving directions to members of the team. V. apparently does not like anyone else giving his familiar orders. We will see how that resolves itself.

The magic transporters are very sophisticated magic. You can't just hire a rent-a-mage to cast that kind of magic, especially for so many tunnels. I am suspecting a ring of three wishes. I suspect that this is just the first line of defense of the tomb.

I'm personally betting on her getting help from the party casters. The main conflict was mostly Soon and the arcanists; since she lacked a city to help or epic magic she may not even have needed to go behind Soon's back.

[The Pilgrim]

Why? Because Kragor was a dwarf fighter. And what are dwarves known for? Mining.

Dwarves are known for their Stonecunning sense. It's a racial trait.

So there is merit in your idea that the path to the Gate is concealed behind a stone wall, apparently the same as the cave walls, that only a Dwarf would perceive. No magic, no true seeing, no detect traps, no detect secret doors, would help you. Only the stonecunning sense of a Dwarf would perceive that the stone is weaker at a certain spot.

Expanding on my previous suggestion, my take is that:

1) Evey door has a portal trap that leads you to an specific dungeon populated by mosters somewere else.

2) If you disable the trap, you end up in a dead-end corridor. Only one of the doors leads to a corridor containing a fake wall along it that connects with Kraagor's Tomb. Or maybe all doors are connected by a network of tunnels, with the fake wall somewere along the tunnel system.

3) The Bugbears may be aware of the portal traps, but as they lead to empty tunnels, they aren't interested in them. They are interested in getting into the monster-populated dungeons.

4) Team Evil may be aware of the existence of the portal traps. But as they lead to nowere, they assume the Gate will be accesed through one of the dungeons they get teleported to.

[hungrycrow]

Another issue with Team Evil knowing about the portals: don't they have the coordinates of the gate? If the portal dungeons are far enough away, they could just figure out which matches the coordinates instead of slogging through each one.

[Mad Humanist]

Can we conclude from all this detective analysis on the recent strips, that the Serini panel in 277 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) is something of a misdirection. Serini was not organizing the capturing of monsters but rather engaging in a massive project of architecture and high-level magic. Presumably that panel is what she told the other scribblers.

[Rogar Demonblud]

It isn't even that. It's what Shojo says his father said that Soon said that Ms Toormuck said.

[Ironsmith]

Dwarves are known for their Stonecunning sense. It's a racial trait.

So there is merit in your idea that the path to the Gate is concealed behind a stone wall, apparently the same as the cave walls, that only a Dwarf would perceive. No magic, no true seeing, no detect traps, no detect secret doors, would help you. Only the stonecunning sense of a Dwarf would perceive that the stone is weaker at a certain spot.

I'm not entirely sold on the "dig the rest of the way" notion. Every other gate had a route that was easily bypassed by the guards, presumably to perform any magical maintenance that might be needed. Dismantling and replacing a whole wall, particularly one that's meant to blend seamlessly in with the cave wall without the use of illusions or a master craftsman on call, is somewhat impractical.

Plus, from a security standpoint, there's no reason to build a layer that's specifically dwarf-permeable. The defenses would be designed so that Sereni and any assistants she had could get through, while outsiders could not. Sereni doesn't have any stonecunning ability, and to my recollection, doesn't have any dwarves working for her. The only upshot of that particular defense would be that it's hard to detect and penetrate in general... which admittedly is still a big upshot, but more coincidentally aligned with the specialties of dwarves than intentional.

[Darth Paul]

...I wasn't alive during the 1980's, but I'm pretty sure they were only 30-40 years ago, not a hundred? :smallconfused:


True, but the 80s were in the last century, plus, I feel old lately. It's the march of technology, I guess.

[Kantaki]

Another issue with Team Evil knowing about the portals: don't they have the coordinates of the gate? If the portal dungeons are far enough away, they could just figure out which matches the coordinates instead of slogging through each one.

They have the coordinates of the general location of Kraagor's Gate/Monster Hollow.
I doubt they're precise enough to pinpoint the exact location of the Rift.
Especially if it's buried somewhere under all that rock.

Depending how accurate Serini was in her diary of course, but since Team Evil teleported next to Girard's pyramid and not right next to the actual Gate they probably only have the equivalent of "It's in Manhattan"*. Helpful to narrow it down, but not enough to pop up right next to it.

*Okay, maybe not quite that bad.

[bunsen_h]

I'm still a bit bothered by the fact that apparently nobody never questioned the impossible geometry of the dungeon nor managed to find a trap that Haley (who hasn't even her search skill maxed) discovered at her first try (I know about the whole only rogues can find magical traps, but I find equally disappointing that there apparently isn't a single rogue in the village nor anyone bothered casting the Find traps spell, which is level 2 for clerics), so part of me still hopes that the real dungeon that leads to the gate is the one you enter through teleport and Team Evil is actually aware of the trap.

It's not physically impossible even in "normal" geometry, if the doors lead to long corridors which spread out from the cliff face, and/or to downward ramps or stairs which put the dungeons deep below. At this point, we can skip the jokes about going up or down levels. :smallsmile:

[hungrycrow]

They have the coordinates of the general location of Kraagor's Gate/Monster Hollow.
I doubt they're precise enough to pinpoint the exact location of the Rift.
Especially if it's buried somewhere under all that rock.

Depending how accurate Serini was in her diary of course, but since Team Evil teleported next to Girard's pyramid and not right next to the actual Gate they probably only have the equivalent of "It's in Manhattan"*. Helpful to narrow it down, but not enough to pop up right next to it.

*Okay, maybe not quite that bad.

Teleporting right outside the pyramid was actually pretty accurate. The coordinates that Girard gave to Soon were also accurate enough that he assumed Soon would trip over his secret message. So the area covered by the coordinates has to be significantly smaller than a city.
I'm kind of guessing here, but I think the teleport traps go farther than a few hundred feet. I guess the dungeons could be layered on top of each other below the same coordinates, but I think it's more likely they're spread far apart.

[Argis13]

In the panel just above the last one, you can see the aura where Blackwing is preemptively getting the heck out of there behind Belkar's head.

Gotta love the Giant's attention to detail.

[toapat]

Serini wouldn't want the Gate to be that easy to find. (And for that matter, neither would Elan. Or Rich.)

if Sirini was truly pragmatic, Monster Hollow would have no way to connect to the gate, and the gate is merely embedded several hundred feet under rock.

[AvangionQ]

Roy's order was to fly in for a moment. Blackwing did well.

[ebarde]

The people on the village definetly would know this all by now, I mean they seem to specialize in hunting and tracking. It's just a matter of them not really caring, as they don't seem to have much stake in this race.

[JonahFalcon]

The people on the village definetly would know this all by now, I mean they seem to specialize in hunting and tracking. It's just a matter of them not really caring, as they don't seem to have much stake in this race.

Why? Why would they think something is odd? Monster Hollow has monsters in them. They're not "are we SURE these tunnels go where they seem to go?" because they just know the tunnels lead to dinnertime.

[Kantaki]

Why? Why would they think something is odd? Monster Hollow has monsters in them. They're not "are we SURE these tunnels go where they seem to go?" because they just know the tunnels lead to dinnertime.

I would argue that (some of) the bugbears probably know there's something weird about those tunnels.
The more magically inclined might even know their hunters are transported somewhere.

But yeah, why should they care?
To them it's a feature, not a bug.
Why mess with the easy access to all the food and the pets and the toys? Just to look at empty corridors*?

The thought that whatever important thingamajig R&X are looking for might be behind the trap probably doesn't even register to them- All the good stuff is through it after all. And even if Oona has a idea she won't tell them.
She's here to make sure the guests don't ruin the bugbears' livelihood as much as she's here to play guide for them.

*Assuming someone even tried at some point.

[mjasghar]

if Sirini was truly pragmatic, Monster Hollow would have no way to connect to the gate, and the gate is merely embedded several hundred feet under rock.

That’s a Seal not a Gate
There definitely seems to have been an intention from the scribblers to be able to enter the rift and possibly access the world inside

[Rules Lawyer #1]

Assuming that panel b7 is mostly accurate. It suggests to me that there is a mirror-effect in play that explains the floor coloring, the scorch-mark, and Blackwing's position without any artist error involved.

For example, Blackwing could be leaving the dungeon in panel b7 and not still exploring the dungeon like everyone thinks he is.

However, the situation as a whole remains insufficiently explained.
Teleportation? Scrying? I don't know. All of that is speculative at best. Right now, the OotS seems to think that's what happened. But we know that even though there is a Conjuration effect and a Divination effect, but they don't have to be Teleportation and Scrying.

The real problem is Redcloak's True Seeing, which would cause Redcloak to notice "secret doors hidden by magic" as well as see "invisible creatures and objects" such as scrying sensors. If such magical effects were disguised with some sort of nondetection magic, then V's Detect Magic should've failed to detect them properly. This adds fuel to the fire of questions from the previous strip: there doesn't seem to be a clear answer yet to the question of why Redcloak failed to notice anything with True Seeing.

Redcloak notices the secret door hidden by magic (it doesn't matter what school of magic was used). There's no explanation for why Redcloak failed to noticed the secret entrance. It's a secret door hidden by magic!

If Teleported and Scrying, then Redcloak True Sees the invisible sensor.

Multi-dimensional stone! I foil all your spells - GM Hax - Ha ha ha? It's still the best explanation. Not that I blame a GM... I mean True Seeing: now I can't put any secret doors in my dungeons? *cry cry*

[Spriteless]

I always love poking around with magic to see how it works. D&D PCs always do, which is refreshing when so many fictional characters just treat what makes their worlds special as a mystery or a plot convenience. Science the hell out of that magic guys!

[Shining Wrath]

The Azure City gate did not require any regular access by those guarding it, as it was in the air above the city. We don't know how the seals work, but I don't recall any statement in the Order of the Scribble's tale that the seals needed tending, either.

If you want access, there's one place where there's a tunnel in sealed by only 5' of rock. It's a hobbit-sized tunnel, because only Serini went in there. So Belkar will be the chosen Stick to go down there - and that's where he'll die, because he'll miss the Glyph of Warding or something similar.

[Xel]

The straightforward topology of the system (discussed in detail already) feels, well, too obvious. Feels like it's designed for someone who suspects a shell game. So I'm thinking the shell game itself is a shell game, especially with the contradictory evidence.

Shell game layer 1: All of the doors and monster dungeons if you don't realize there's a trap that must be disabled. The gate is not in any of these dungeons. If you figure that out, you quickly figure out the two-dungeons-per-door setup and the obvious way the trap works. You're also now alerted to watch for other such "traps" as you proceed through the second set of dungeons.

Shell game layer 2: You now proceed to explore the second set of hidden dungeons. The gate is not in any of these. The "have to tunnel through the rock to get to the gate" option is sort of such a second shell game, but why stop there? Make the "dead end" be actually a third dungeon entirely, and you have to disable the its teleportation trap to not go back to the second one. Stack this out N layers, but hide a second "trap" under/just behind one halfway through the sequence that you have to find and disable (or not disable) in order to follow the new trail. Connect some of the traps one-way to dungeons behind the other doors. Eventually you make the topology so incredibly confusing that it'll take decades to figure it out.

The "errors" in the second layer shell game (floor color difference in only one, burn mark error, expressly drawing a teleport effect for Blackwing leaving) crossing feel like they're subtle efforts to foreshadow something more.

...Or it could just be that the floor by the door was colored to match the decoy dungeon, that the teleport effect was just to foreshadow Blackwing leaving on their own initiative, and the burn mark seen from the dead-end tunnel is an art error. Guess we wait and find out.

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

For example, Blackwing could be leaving the dungeon in panel b7 and not still exploring the dungeon like everyone thinks he is.

The problem is that Blackwing is clearly still beyond the portal, because we can see the portal being used in panel b9 (in your panel numbering system). See that white glow and the white line on the wall behind Belkar, that was Blackwing going back. So, in b7, he was still at the position we see in b3.

The scorch mark is either an art error or nobody understood how the portals really work. Neither us here nor Roy and the OotS.

[Ghosty]

The problem is that Blackwing is clearly still beyond the portal, because we can see the portal being used in panel b9 (in your panel numbering system). See that white glow and the white line on the wall behind Belkar, that was Blackwing going back. So, in b7, he was still at the position we see in b3.

The scorch mark is either an art error or nobody understood how the portals really work. Neither us here nor Roy and the OotS.

Since we know that the scorch mark only exists on the door side, and for the dungeon side too where the Order is, we can know that if Roy sees it looking backwards at the portal it means he's seeing what exists on the door side. Which is why he sees Blackwing zipping out of the dungeon.

I am guessing both sides of the portal (the side where Roy's head is, and the side TE zipped down) show that image. So, whichever side of the portal you're on in TE's dungeon, you get zapped back towards the door.

Anyone but Xykon coming back (because he doesn't care) might notice an unusually split off scorch mark along the wall. Might be how RC figures out that they've been had this whole time. Which leads to all sorts of questions for Oona and the Bugbear Village.

Oh, and though it's been repeated ad nauseam throughout this thread and the last couple of strip threads, True Seeing shouldn't show anything about this trap. Though it is interesting that Detect Magic from the Door side of the portal doesn't seem to detect the portal.

[Ironsmith]

A random thought occurs to me; the differing colors between the two floors might not be intentional in-universe. The door opens out into the Random Dungeon via the portal, so the floor right next to the door and the floor in the Random Dungeon are both going to be subject to the same wear and tear, dust buildup, chemical erosion, et cetera, while the floor of the Real Dungeon would be relatively untouched by the same, thanks to the portal. Note even that it's a fair bit less faded than the Random Dungeon's floor, like it was made yesterday. Interesting detail.

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

Since we know that the scorch mark only exists on the door side, and for the dungeon side too where the Order is, we can know that if Roy sees it looking backwards at the portal it means he's seeing what exists on the door side. Which is why he sees Blackwing zipping out of the dungeon.

But if we see the "mirror image", then we should not see Blackwing at all, because at that point in time he had not crossed the portal back to the door yet, he's still on the other side. He only crosses it on panel 20.


I am guessing both sides of the portal (the side where Roy's head is, and the side TE zipped down) show that image. So, whichever side of the portal you're on in TE's dungeon, you get zapped back towards the door.

That's also strange to me, since Roy can get back to where the OotS is after leaning his torso to see the dead end. One can argue that it only does that if you cross your whole body, but that seems needlessly complicated to me. :smallbiggrin:

[bunsen_h]

Hmm. According to my theory, from the point of view of Roy with his head in the dead-end area, no mark should be visible on the floor. He's seeing an image of Blackwing hovering in a section of corridor which doesn't contain the mark, and the mark isn't present on Roy's side. This is before Blackwing flies back, passes through the plane of the "trap" line -- on the left edge of panel 20 overall, panel 9 of the second page, we see the "splash" -- and exits.

[Ruck]

You do have a valid point about how only rogues are any good at disabling traps. But does that apply to detecting traps too?

I said "detecting," not "disabling."

[facw]

This is before Blackwing flies back, passes through the plane of the "trap" line -- on the left edge of panel 20 overall, panel 9 of the second page, we see the "splash" -- and exits.
Neat, I completely missed that we can see the effect from Blackwing crossing back

[pearl jam]

It's possible that the last flash is someone other than Blackwing crossing back over as well and we just haven't seen it spelled out yet.

[Snails]

The real problem is Redcloak's True Seeing, which would cause Redcloak to notice "secret doors hidden by magic" as well as see "invisible creatures and objects" such as scrying sensors. If such magical effects were disguised with some sort of nondetection magic, then V's Detect Magic should've failed to detect them properly. This adds fuel to the fire of questions from the previous strip: there doesn't seem to be a clear answer yet to the question of why Redcloak failed to notice anything with True Seeing.

I think it is a simple as Epic Magic can defeat True Seeing, which is something that I as a player would be fine with.

I am not entirely convinced that Roy has interpreted things correctly. My interpretation: If he is seeing a dead end on the other side, then it could be the Order is the one transported. The "trap" that was bypassed was the magical effect that prevented the party from being affected.

There are two layers of magical effect for crossing that line. The Local Gate effect, which is not a trap or inherently dangerous, so Haley did not see it. On top of that is a Prevent Gate From Affecting You "Trap". The second functions within the norms of a trap, applying a harmless effect. Haley bypassed that because its mechanisms look trap-like to her.

This also makes sense insofar as it is more believable that RC with True Seeing is seeing perfectly well a normal corridor. What is hidden by Epic Magic is something that is not directly affecting him at all.

[danielxcutter]

I think it is a simple as Epic Magic can defeat True Seeing, which is something that I as a player would be fine with.

I think it's as simple as "you're interpreting it wrong".

As I already said earlier in the thread, and likely will be several times more, this trap is not hiding a door, does not use magical darkness, is not making things invisible, using illusions, polymorphing, changing, or transmuting anything, or involved with the Ethereal Plane. Therefore, True Seeing does nothing.


I am not entirely convinced that Roy has interpreted things correctly. My interpretation: If he is seeing a dead end on the other side, then it could be the Order is the one transported. The "trap" that was bypassed was the magical effect that prevented the party from being affected.

There are two layers of magical effect for crossing that line. The Local Gate effect, which is not a trap or inherently dangerous, so Haley did not see it. On top of that is a Prevent Gate From Affecting You "Trap". The second functions within the norms of a trap, applying a harmless effect. Haley bypassed that because its mechanisms look trap-like to her.

Also false; if "not being inherently dangerous" means a rogue can't find it then these (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0867.html) couldn't be found either; Summon Monster is not inherently a spell that hurts you and neither are Stoneskin or Haste.


This also makes sense insofar as it is more believable that RC with True Seeing is seeing perfectly well a normal corridor. What is hidden by Epic Magic is something that is not directly affecting him at all.

I'm guessing that people are conflating "deception" with "can be seen with True Seeing".

[Ironsmith]

The real problem is Redcloak's True Seeing, which would cause Redcloak to notice "secret doors hidden by magic" as well as see "invisible creatures and objects" such as scrying sensors. If such magical effects were disguised with some sort of nondetection magic, then V's Detect Magic should've failed to detect them properly. This adds fuel to the fire of questions from the previous strip: there doesn't seem to be a clear answer yet to the question of why Redcloak failed to notice anything with True Seeing.

Redcloak notices the secret door hidden by magic (it doesn't matter what school of magic was used). There's no explanation for why Redcloak failed to noticed the secret entrance. It's a secret door hidden by magic!


Because it's not a secret door hidden by magic.

Let me explain. True Seeing does not expose objects hidden by mundane means; it wouldn't reveal a trapdoor hidden under a rug, for instance.

The portal is an actual object, not merely an illusion. If anything can pass through it, that would include air (and therefore sound) and light, therefore making it look and sound like whatever is on the other side, all without the use of illusions. Think of it like looking in a mirror, in effect.

[Ruck]

It's possible that the last flash is someone other than Blackwing crossing back over as well and we just haven't seen it spelled out yet.

I dunno, from the perspective we see the decoy tunnel in page 2, panel 7, I don't see anyone else in there who would be moving back through.

[pearl jam]

I'm just searching for explanations that could explain how the scorch mark is visible without it being an error. however, my previous thought that it might be a flipped image of blackwing already on the way out seems unlikely upon further review because the door is too close to the line in the earlier frames to allow that to be blackwing already back to the door side on his way out the door with the scorch mark properly behind him again.

[Kornaki]

The floor colors also match in that panel, which they shouldn't. I think he just messed up the floor in that panel.

[hamishspence]

Until they put the osquip head down, the tunnel is green:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1220.html

Which suggests that the "entrance tunnel" is green normally, but the area that the party are in is yellow:


As such, because Blackwing is in a green tunnel, it makes sense that panel 18 of this strip be green - because we can see Blackwing:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1223.html

Presumably, both the entrance tunnel, and the tunnel Blackwing is in, are green rather than yellow, to ensure that intruders who fail to disarm the trap, are not tipped off by the floor colour changing when they are teleported.

Whereas the Order are in a special separate, yellow-floored tunnel.

[Ghosty]

But if we see the "mirror image", then we should not see Blackwing at all, because at that point in time he had not crossed the portal back to the door yet, he's still on the other side. He only crosses it on panel 20.



That's also strange to me, since Roy can get back to where the OotS is after leaning his torso to see the dead end. One can argue that it only does that if you cross your whole body, but that seems needlessly complicated to me. :smallbiggrin:

We're sure of when Blackwing starts to head out of the Doom Tunnel? (LOL) Because we don't see Blackwing (other than the panel with Roy's head) between the time Blackwing says "Uh...no?" and the final panel. I infer that Blackwing turns around and zips out while the Order is talking amongst themselves, and Roy's head's panel is a clever way to show that.

As to partial teleportation, we saw with the prior strip and Roy's sword that things have to completely traverse the portal plane in order to get completely teleported. Roy got an entire sword back. We don't know if Roy, standing completely in that dead end space and then re-entering the portal, would be teleported to the Door side of the dungeon, or back to where the Order sits.

It's conceivable---and may even come up with subsequent portals, later---that the portal system might work in some configurations where the Divination part shows on a different part of space than the Conjuration part teleports you to.

Editing again, I like Bunsen's (and Pearl Jam's) point upthread that Roy sees too much of the sides of the corridor for him to be looking through the portal and seeing the Door side of the corridor. There just isn't that much wall between the Door and the plane of the trap. Some part of the Door would be visible if Roy's point of view was looking towards the Door side, rather than deeper into the 'Doom Tunnel.'

[diplomancer]

I love how Belkar is essentially the audience.
I'm not sure if Belkar is the audience; but I love how Blackwing is a DM with a great sense of humor roleplaying a small raven familiar.

[BarakDeathBlade]

We're sure of when Blackwing starts to head out of the Doom Tunnel? (LOL) Because we don't see Blackwing (other than the panel with Roy's head) between the time Blackwing says "Uh...no?" and the final panel. I infer that Blackwing turns around and zips out while the Order is talking amongst themselves, and Roy's head's panel is a clever way to show that.


Two panels after the one with Roy's head, Roy and Belkar are talking and there's a white splash behind them on the portal at the left edge of the panel. It was off panel enough that the WONNNH!! was not visible. But it set up the last panel joke.

[Ironsmith]

It's conceivable---and may even come up with subsequent portals, later---that the portal system might work in some configurations where the Divination part shows on a different part of space than the Conjuration part teleports you to.


Actually, that much is proven already. Roy went through the portal to a dead end, but the portal displays the entrance.

[Robots]

Nice update. :)

I can't wait to see what happens next

[Aaron L]

Smart Fighters are the best Fighters. I love Roy.

[Aaron L]

I love how Belkar is essentially the audience.

Belkar has become the Everyman Audience Surrogate.

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

Two panels after the one with Roy's head, Roy and Belkar are talking and there's a white splash behind them on the portal at the left edge of the panel. It was off panel enough that the WONNNH!! was not visible. But it set up the last panel joke.

This. Also, notice the white line on the wall. The portal is being used at that very moment. Notice how the line that marks where the portal is turns white whenever someone crosses it.

In short: Blackwing crosses the portal back to the door on panel 20. Not before that.

[ORione]

So, Team Evil presumably doesn't know about the teleportation trap...

Too bad someone killed the party's rogue, Redcloak.

[Snails]

I think it's as simple as "you're interpreting it wrong".

As I already said earlier in the thread, and likely will be several times more, this trap is not hiding a door, does not use magical darkness, is not making things invisible, using illusions, polymorphing, changing, or transmuting anything, or involved with the Ethereal Plane. Therefore, True Seeing does nothing.

Ah. You are correct. Thank you.

Looking carefully at the 3e spell wording, True Seeing (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueSeeing.htm) confers no specific ability to Detect Magic. It will show things that are altered by magic or hidden by magic. In fact, it is not even a benefit for finding most traps, magical or mundane.

So the answer is "I am interpreting it wrong", as you said.

Haley has a sky high Spot and Search, and found the "trap". Redcloak is relying on True Seeing, but did not bother with Detect Magic, and sees nothing. Detect Magic would presumably reveal something is there that might be worth further investigation. Redcloak has been using True Seeing, and, nobody having been blown up at the foyer in the last 100+ tunnels, saw no reason to alter his tactics.

[Metastachydium]

So, Team Evil presumably doesn't know about the teleportation trap...

Too bad someone killed the party's rogue, Redcloak.

Well, he wouldn't be all too eager to help anyway, and as a frail old man, he'd be expected die to the first critter they run into, so it isn't even a given that they would bring him along.

[Darth Paul]

I'm still trying to figure out what this "art error" is that everyone is talking about.

Other than the floor in panel 18 being a little darker than it should be, I'm not seeing a problem. The floor in panel 1 is also darker than it should be, so this is an inconsistency or an issue of light or shading, not an error.

[hungrycrow]

So, Team Evil presumably doesn't know about the teleportation trap...

Too bad someone killed the party's rogue, Redcloak.

Now I wonder if pointing out this irony is how main comic readers will be brought up to speed on Right-eye.

[Yirggzmb]

I'm still trying to figure out what this "art error" is that everyone is talking about.

Other than the floor in panel 18 being a little darker than it should be, I'm not seeing a problem. The floor in panel 1 is also darker than it should be, so this is an inconsistency or an issue of light or shading, not an error.

I think they're talking about the half of the scorch mark being visible in the divination in that panel, when it's not actually there when you look at the panel of Blackwing going through

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

I'm still trying to figure out what this "art error" is that everyone is talking about.

Other than the floor in panel 18 being a little darker than it should be, I'm not seeing a problem. The floor in panel 1 is also darker than it should be, so this is an inconsistency or an issue of light or shading, not an error.

It's the scorch mark on the floor. It shouldn't be there. If we are correct in our interpretation of how the portals work, then panel 18 is just another angle of panel 14. And on 14 the scorch mark is not there (on Blackwing's side of the portal).

Edit: Ninja'd.

[Silverionmox]

I think it's much simpler. The floor color is the key. That means:

- Team Xykon is actually just walking into yet another monster tunnel.

- The Order is being teleported to Somewhere Else, likely a tunnel leading to the portal.

- The teleportation activates conditionally, likely at least the condition of alignment, which explains why Blackwing, being an unaligned animal doesn't trigger the condition but the Order does. Probably with a timer to accomodate company with an alternative alignment.

This means that the gate tunnel isn't accidentally accessible to any random adventurer with Detect Magic and Dispel Magic. If the effects are dispelled, the tunnel remains where it is, and the gate too, likely hidden somewhere underground. The teleportation effect is just a convenient service access.

The illusion is just an unconditional one that crosswires the sensory data when observing through the portal.

It also only requires a *single* teleport/illusion combo, instead of one for every tunnel, hundreds or thousands.


The rat head is effectively part of Haley's equipment, which is why it triggers the condition, and why the scorch mark is on departure and destination sides of the teleportation.

The only thing unexplained is why the convenient maintenance entrance doesn't work both ways, but we'll see that later I suppose.

[BarakDeathBlade]

This. Also, notice the white line on the wall. The portal is being used at that very moment. Notice how the line that marks where the portal is turns white whenever someone crosses it.

In short: Blackwing crosses the portal back to the door on panel 20. Not before that.

I'll be honest, I didn't notice the white line on the wall...

[Ruck]

I think it's much simpler. The floor color is the key. That means:

- Team Xykon is actually just walking into yet another monster tunnel.

- The Order is being teleported to Somewhere Else, likely a tunnel leading to the portal.

- The teleportation activates conditionally, likely at least the condition of alignment, which explains why Blackwing, being an unaligned animal doesn't trigger the condition but the Order does. Probably with a timer to accomodate company with an alternative alignment.

This means that the gate tunnel isn't accidentally accessible to any random adventurer with Detect Magic and Dispel Magic. If the effects are dispelled, the tunnel remains where it is, and the gate too, likely hidden somewhere underground. The teleportation effect is just a convenient service access.

The illusion is just an unconditional one that crosswires the sensory data when observing through the portal.

It also only requires a *single* teleport/illusion combo, instead of one for every tunnel, hundreds or thousands.


The rat head is effectively part of Haley's equipment, which is why it triggers the condition, and why the scorch mark is on departure and destination sides of the teleportation.

The only thing unexplained is why the convenient maintenance entrance doesn't work both ways, but we'll see that later I suppose.

I still don't understand the case that an active trap doesn't teleport people but a disabled one does.

[bunsen_h]

I still don't understand the case that an active trap doesn't teleport people but a disabled one does.

The "trap" might be a two-step thing. One, relatively easy to spot and disable by a rogue, doesn't actually do very much. The second, much harder to spot, acts on the basis of the state of the first one.

I don't think that that's what's happening, but that's how it could work.

[BarakDeathBlade]

The "trap" might be a two-step thing. One, relatively easy to spot and disable by a rogue, doesn't actually do very much. The second, much harder to spot, acts on the basis of the state of the first one.

I don't think that that's what's happening, but that's how it could work.

Roy got a WONNNH!! when he went toward the dead end, so if we stipulate that teleportation is happening, it is happening. Ergo, the dead end tunnel is the tunnel where Team Evil is, Roy is correct.

Now, question B: does "bypassing" the trap leave you in a tunnel in the "real" dungeon, or does it also teleport you, with less effects, into the "real" (yes, I'm assuming, shell game and all) dungeon. The answer, in my humble opinion, is does walking down the tunnel yield a bunch of branch points where you can join all the other doors?

That's my idea, 5 Quatloos.

[LoRdofCookIES]

Regarding the issue of the scorch mark in team Evil / Blackwing's side:

Just before the mini explosion that suspended the trap (1220, p8-9), the rat-skull was for a moment half way through the trap. Then the magical effect suspended, which was the cause for the mini explosion and the scorch mark. Therefore, since at this critical moment the rat-skull was half way through the team Evil side, then the explosion mark should be there too!

Meaning that this mini explosion happened at: 1. at the side of the entrance 2. at the team Evil side 3. the OotS side. Yes. Three sides. Magic! Or rather, suspension of active teleportation magic.

Then there is the fact that after this moment (p10), the rat-skull half that was on the team Evil side, exists now in OotS side. This shows us that suspending the spell while someone is half way through, will not in fact cut them in half.

[Xel]

Another random thought -- does sound transmission play into this at all? As well as seeing into the door section from the hidden corridor, the OOtS are hearing what's going on there. But Xykon isn't hearing the OOtS. If the hypothesis that corridor #1 goes "Door Section => Divination => Teleport to Corridor 2 => Hidden (OOtS) Section" is true, and that the Order is seeing/hearing Team Evil because they're in the same physical corridor, wouldn't all of their own talking carry past the divination wall and let Xykon hear them?

Maybe the teleport traps convey the sound waves as well? But I'm having trouble figuring out a configuration where the two teleport traps behave the same way that is still consistent with the evidence. I think there's something else going on to get the sound working the way it is. Maybe it's just a good thing that Roy is only using telepathy in the dead end, and not actually speaking?

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

Meaning that this mini explosion happened at: 1. at the side of the entrance 2. at the team Evil side 3. the OotS side. Yes. Three sides. Magic! Or rather, suspension of active teleportation magic.

That would explain the scorch mark on panel 18, but would render panels 9 and 14 wrong. On those, by your explanation, there shouldn't be half marks. They had to be on both sides.

I still think it's as simple as an art error on panel 18. Occam's razor. :smallbiggrin:

[Xel]

Regarding the issue of the scorch mark in team Evil / Blackwing's side:

Just before the mini explosion that suspended the trap (1220, p8-9), the rat-skull was for a moment half way through the trap. Then the magical effect suspended, which was the cause for the mini explosion and the scorch mark. Therefore, since at this critical moment the rat-skull was half way through the team Evil side, then the explosion mark should be there too!

Meaning that this mini explosion happened at: 1. at the side of the entrance 2. at the team Evil side 3. the OotS side. Yes. Three sides. Magic! Or rather, suspension of active teleportation magic.

Then there is the fact that after this moment (p10), the rat-skull half that was on the team Evil side, exists now in OotS side. This shows us that suspending the spell while someone is half way through, will not in fact cut them in half.

Except the scorch doesn't appear to be there in frame 14 (frame 3 of section 2).

[Ironsmith]

I think it's much simpler. The floor color is the key. That means:

- Team Xykon is actually just walking into yet another monster tunnel.

- The Order is being teleported to Somewhere Else, likely a tunnel leading to the portal.

- The teleportation activates conditionally, likely at least the condition of alignment, which explains why Blackwing, being an unaligned animal doesn't trigger the condition but the Order does. Probably with a timer to accomodate company with an alternative alignment.

All of this from the floor color? That can be easily explained by a perpetually-active portal; everything that could affect the coloration of the floor would affect the floor on both sides of the portal. As the portal intercepts anything that would go behind it, the ground in the tunnel behind it would be untouched. Note again that the entry floor color is more muted than the color of the floor by the Order; dustier, maybe, or more worn-down. Hardly proof of Team Evil's tunnel being connected directly to the entrance.


This means that the gate tunnel isn't accidentally accessible to any random adventurer with Detect Magic and Dispel Magic. If the effects are dispelled, the tunnel remains where it is, and the gate too, likely hidden somewhere underground. The teleportation effect is just a convenient service access.

There are hundreds of tunnels, some or all of which might have portals of their own. Even if this is the only tunnel with a trick entrance, the odds of finding that one entrance, even with magical assistance, are pretty low. If the Order has indeed found the way to the Gate, it's probability being a copper piece harlot again.


The illusion is just an unconditional one that crosswires the sensory data when observing through the portal.

It also only requires a *single* teleport/illusion combo, instead of one for every tunnel, hundreds or thousands.

Sensible, if you assume Sereni can't or won't prepare more than one portal. But Kraagor's Tomb is already an example of gross excesses; hundreds of doors, thousands of epic-level monsters, which replenish their numbers if killed, implying stock beyond what we see. Why would the traps be any less excessive?

[tanonev]

What should we make of the fact that Blackwing isn't black in panel 18, but rather a dark gray? This plus the scorch mark seem like very deliberate choices, which make it more likely that there's another layer of complexity than that it's simply an art error (or in this case, two art errors).

[mjasghar]

I still don't understand the case that an active trap doesn't teleport people but a disabled one does.

That’s not it
Let’s say A is in the hollow with door and B is the dungeon with monsters you get teleported to if you cross the line and trigger the trap
The trap is permanent and teleports you to the other tunnel from that which you enter
Haley temporarily disabled it letting the Order into the other side of A
It then resets
So Team Evil get teleported from front of A to B
Roy and his sword went partially through the reactivated trap so end up in the front of B which is a dead end
You can only go from A to A or B to B by disabling the trap
Possibly there’s some special item or password that lets any guardians or maintainers pass freely.

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

What should we make of the fact that Blackwing isn't black in panel 18, but rather a dark gray? This plus the scorch mark seem like very deliberate choices, which make it more likely that there's another layer of complexity than that it's simply an art error (or in this case, two art errors).

I'd say that is a deliberate art choice by Rich to picture things in the background. Look at Haley in the two last panels of 1219 (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1219.html), for example.

[Ironsmith]

Another thought occurs to me: is it possible that the portal trap is meant to catch out particularly clever intruders? The new portal leads out into a dead end, which means there's no guarantee the Order can find its way out. If something happens to their trap-finding rogue (like, say, she gets disintegrated by an epic monster), then no matter how well the Order fares in the rest of the dungeon, they're kinda screwed. Heck, can they even get air in there?

[JessmanCA]

All this talk about locating traps. Why does it have to be a trap at all? Putting the rat skull down there could be Activating a Device, not deactivating a trap. Like punching in a code to open a door. Except this “door” is a portal which is activated

Further it could be that the portal disappears once the 20 seconds wears off. So that’s why team evil couldn’t see it even with detect magic, the magic is turned off when they pass it.

Where the order now is, they have a new portal that is activated at all times, hence why they can detect it

[hungrycrow]

Another thought occurs to me: is it possible that the portal trap is meant to catch out particularly clever intruders? The new portal leads out into a dead end, which means there's no guarantee the Order can find its way out. If something happens to their trap-finding rogue (like, say, she gets disintegrated by an epic monster), then no matter how well the Order fares in the rest of the dungeon, they're kinda screwed. Heck, can they even get air in there?

Most parties could just teleport out. I can't imagine Serini would go through all this specifically to trap parties that have a high level rogue and a wizard who banned conjuration.

[Ironsmith]

Most parties could just teleport out. I can't imagine Serini would go through all this specifically to trap parties that have a high level rogue and a wizard who banned conjuration.

Can they, though? There are spells that prevent teleportation (Dimensional Lock, Dimensional Anchor, Forbiddance, etc.), and it's not inconceivable that Sereni could have had a version rigged that included an exception for her portal. Plus, we've already heard that the stonework here is multidimensional or whatever (and that's why Xykon can't phase through it), so there's always a chance it naturally foils teleportation or planar travel as well.

[Yirggzmb]

All this talk about locating traps. Why does it have to be a trap at all?

Because Haley called it a trap and considering she's a high level rogue with a lot of experience, I'm inclined to believe her.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The OotS think Xykon's group was the one teleported.
But considering the other side of the trap for the OotS is now a dead end, it seems more likely that THEY were the ones teleported. Not sure that's possible, to have a trap that only transports you if you disable or bypass it, but it'd make way more sense. Then each door can teleport to the same singular tunnel and if you fall for the trap...you proceed into the dungeon like normal and find nothing but monsters and such.

Still not sure how the hell Xykon and Redcloak never noticed this. But assuming that OotS is now on the path to the seal, then Xykon's not, and never will be until they figure this trick out. Which I'm guessing will occur due to the OotS causing them to find it... (even in a way like, "well, they just VANISHED, what could've happened? hmm...") :smallfrown:

Good on Blackwing getting out of there ASAP w/o waiting to be told to do so.

[JessmanCA]

Blackwing is better off somewhere up high flying around. If they find him sitting out there they might recognize him from previous fights and capture him, they might make him talk

[Gehatan]

All of this from the floor color? That can be easily explained by a perpetually-active portal; everything that could affect the coloration of the floor would affect the floor on both sides of the portal. As the portal intercepts anything that would go behind it, the ground in the tunnel behind it would be untouched. Note again that the entry floor color is more muted than the color of the floor by the Order; dustier, maybe, or more worn-down. Hardly proof of Team Evil's tunnel being connected directly to the entrance.

Then the dead end must get as much traffic as the entrance door - that's possible but it seems more likely that the dead end is part of the same tunnel as Xykon et al are in, with the same colored rock, and the entrance immediately in front of the door has been deliberately colored the same by Serini to avoid making the teleporter obvious (but no need to recolor the area oots are in which is past the teleporter).

[Darth Paul]

Okay:

In every panel except #18, from Roy's point of view, the entire scorch mark is visible, because he can see the corridor they came in by, and also the corridor they are in right now. Two different corridors. Blackwing, on the other hand, can't see the floor where Roy is, and can't see that scorch mark, but he can always see the whole corridor that he himself IS in. Panel by panel, I think it is consistent.

Panel 9: from Blackwing's point of view; half of the mark is visible, on his side.

10-12: Roy's POV; both halves are visible.

14: BW's POV; Only the half that he could originally see is still visible. He's still in the original corridor, a different corridor from Roy, who can still see the entire scorch mark. The other half of the scorch mark is in Roy's corridor.

Panel 18: Roy's POV; Roy can now only see half of the mark, but the opposite half. He has stuck his head into the dead end; this is not the entrance he came into.

Two corridors, each with one half of the scorch mark in it. Roy and the rest of the party can see both halves. Blackwing can't, because the line that sent the party to a different corridor also means he can't see that corridor.

The dead end of that corridor, is the one Roy is looking into in panel 18. It has no scorch mark, because the party entered by a different corridor.

-------______
_____/--______
___BW_/
--------_______
______/--_Roy___
__|____/

The offset in my so-called diagram represents the boundary the party passed through, their corridor is at the bottom with the dead end. Each one is (or seems to be) a different corridor; passing through the boundary moved the party to a new corridor. (I like the word "boundary" better than "trap". For one thing, it has "bound" in it. A nice, woody sounding word.)

Roy can see out to Blackwing's corridor, but Blackwing can't see in to Roy's corridor. And Roy can't see out to the dead end (bottom left end) unless he sticks his head through the boundary.

I still don't see why this is an art error, it looks consistent to me. (My diagram is an art error, but that's a whole 'nother story.)

[Blatt]

Or maybe it's only an illusion of a dead-end, dun, dun, dun!!!

[Blatt]

OK, complicated theory: there are three portals one after the other, about 1 micron apart. The first portal just teleports you to after the second portal, ie you come out the 3rd portal and stay in the same tunnel, and that works both ways. The middle portal is the one which takes you to the "real" tunnel. To access the middle portal you must disable portal 1.

[pearl jam]

Okay:

In every panel except #18, from Roy's point of view, the entire scorch mark is visible, because he can see the corridor they came in by, and also the corridor they are in right now. Two different corridors. Blackwing, on the other hand, can't see the floor where Roy is, and can't see that scorch mark, but he can always see the whole corridor that he himself IS in. Panel by panel, I think it is consistent.

Panel 9: from Blackwing's point of view; half of the mark is visible, on his side.

10-12: Roy's POV; both halves are visible.

14: BW's POV; Only the half that he could originally see is still visible. He's still in the original corridor, a different corridor from Roy, who can still see the entire scorch mark. The other half of the scorch mark is in Roy's corridor.

Panel 18: Roy's POV; Roy can now only see half of the mark, but the opposite half. He has stuck his head into the dead end; this is not the entrance he came into.

Two corridors, each with one half of the scorch mark in it. Roy and the rest of the party can see both halves. Blackwing can't, because the line that sent the party to a different corridor also means he can't see that corridor.

The dead end of that corridor, is the one Roy is looking into in panel 18. It has no scorch mark, because the party entered by a different corridor.

-------______
_____/--______
___BW_/
--------_______
______/--_Roy___
__|____/

The offset in my so-called diagram represents the boundary the party passed through, their corridor is at the bottom with the dead end. Each one is (or seems to be) a different corridor; passing through the boundary moved the party to a new corridor. (I like the word "boundary" better than "trap". For one thing, it has "bound" in it. A nice, woody sounding word.)

Roy can see out to Blackwing's corridor, but Blackwing can't see in to Roy's corridor. And Roy can't see out to the dead end (bottom left end) unless he sticks his head through the boundary.

I still don't see why this is an art error, it looks consistent to me. (My diagram is an art error, but that's a whole 'nother story.)

The thing that's confusing people is that when Roy sticks his head through the barrier, behind him we see an image where the scorch mark is on the floor apparently corresponding to where Roy's feet are, but his feet aren't visible. Instead we also see Blackwing flying with his back to a scorch mark on the floor which should only appear with Blackwing when Blackwing is in front of the door but the door is not visible in that view. If Blackwing were facing out the door with the scorch behind him, we would expect it to appear behind him to his right, rather than to his left, as well.

[JennTora]

I said "detecting," not "disabling."

clerics can, too. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/findTraps.htm)

But to be fair, if Redcloak and Xykon spoke to the bugbears beforehand, and saw that they had been going into and out of the cave for years without harm, he might not have bothered to prepare that spell.

Do we know whether the bugbears found them while they were exploring or if they spoke to them first?

[danielxcutter]

clerics can, too. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/findTraps.htm)

But to be fair, if Redcloak and Xykon spoke to the bugbears beforehand, and saw that they had been going into and out of the cave for years without harm, he might not have bothered to prepare that spell.

Do we know whether the bugbears found them while they were exploring or if they spoke to them first?

Also, even with that spell Redcloak's Search bonus would have been abysmal. It's not a Cleric class skill and it's Int-based, so I doubt that he'd even have half Haley's bonus.

[Ruck]

That’s not it
Let’s say A is in the hollow with door and B is the dungeon with monsters you get teleported to if you cross the line and trigger the trap
The trap is permanent and teleports you to the other tunnel from that which you enter
Haley temporarily disabled it letting the Order into the other side of A
It then resets
So Team Evil get teleported from front of A to B
Roy and his sword went partially through the reactivated trap so end up in the front of B which is a dead end
You can only go from A to A or B to B by disabling the trap
Possibly there’s some special item or password that lets any guardians or maintainers pass freely.

I understand that and it's not what I'm talking about. People, more than one, have made the case that actually Team Evil are either in the real corridor or teleported to the real dungeon, while the Order is, by disabling the trap, somehow in the decoy dungeon. Which I think is the opposite of what has happened.

[chrestomancy]

I just wanted to offer a theory for why (shell-game discussion aside) you might want a vast array of different monsters for your attackers to fight through, other than the fact they may assume that the monsters are the whole of the defense. If there's a separate high level team defending the gate itself, you could put in place some sort of scrying system so they can watch the enemy team in action against a wide array of different opponents. You can then tailor your response to that party when and if they finally find the secret route into your inner sanctum. Even if there is no team in place any longer, that could have been the intention. We don't know what happened to Serini or why she has not responded to any of the order, but it could be the actual gate is just as unguarded as the pyramid.

I personally think the blast mark is an art error. It looks like a pretty straight-forward portal between two corridors. One corridor is from the door into where the OotS (excluding Blackwing) are now standing. The other corridor is a dead end into a dungeon full of monsters, where Team Evil are currently exploring. Going through the portal each way teleports you to the *other* corridor. There's a wonnnnh noise of the teleport activating, that is in some way masked from two sides - the doorway and the dungeon full of monsters, but isn't masked elsewhere. Vision behaves normally, except there's a divination on the side where the OotS and, briefly, where Roy's head was, that shows what is happening down the other two ends of the corridor.

To me, it appears clear Team Evil never had much in the way of trap-prevention. We've seen Redcloak prepare for the dungeon, and Find Traps was not one of the spells he cast (note that it's a fairly short duration spell anyway, about 20 mins for redcloak or 40 with extend, so tends to be used by Clerics situationally when they expect a trap, not "just on the off-chance" - speaking from personal experience at least!). Previously we've seen them either tank damage, send goblins/hobgoblins, or summoned undead to do the work of triggering traps. It's usually a very effective strategy - with the simple exception of exactly this sort of trap.

[Schroeswald]

While I’ve been reading all this discussion of the scorch mark I just finally bothered to go look at it and here’s how I see it:
I think that we’re seeing the entrance, Blackwing is already flying away from the Kill Skeleton here and that’s why we see him.

[JennTora]

Also, even with that spell Redcloak's Search bonus would have been abysmal. It's not a Cleric class skill and it's Int-based, so I doubt that he'd even have half Haley's bonus.

It would probably be more than half, considering Haley hasn't been keeping her search skill maxed, and the highest bonus she can get from skill ranks is +19 (if the class and level geekery thread is right about her being level 16.) while the spell is giving Redcloak a +8 or more just from its insight bonus, but point taken nonetheless.



To me, it appears clear Team Evil never had much in the way of trap-prevention. We've seen Redcloak prepare for the dungeon, and Find Traps was not one of the spells he cast (note that it's a fairly short duration spell anyway, about 20 mins for redcloak or 40 with extend, so tends to be used by Clerics situationally when they expect a trap, not "just on the off-chance" - speaking from personal experience at least!). Previously we've seen them either tank damage, send goblins/hobgoblins, or summoned undead to do the work of triggering traps. It's usually a very effective strategy - with the simple exception of exactly this sort of trap.

Good point, they probably would just animate some zombies to send ahead of them if they were worried about traps. Which means they wouldn't have a clue.