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View Full Version : What makes a spell 1st or 9th level?



fireinthedust
2007-11-07, 09:40 AM
Okay, the title is exagerated. My quesiton, though, is how I know what level a spell should be. Is there a die-pool? A general guideline out there somewhere that tells me what to look out for?

why are 8th level spells 8th level, and 9th level spells 9th level? Also, wish vs. shapechange?


the reason I ask is that I have a d20 book that uses an alternate magic system. The levels cap at 30th, and instead of 1st to 9th level spells (beyond which come the epic spell system) you get 1st to 15th level spells. There isn't a company forum with advice on how to convert spells, as the book basically isn't in print any more. The spells tend to be low-power (like 5d6x2 damage plus an effect for a 10th level spell!), so I'm not sure what to look for.

what I want to do is figure out how to decide which 3.5 spells should go in 1st-15th spell levels. Or which of these spells should go into 3.5's 1-9 levels, which would be easier.

it's a spell-point system, so for either the more powerful/game breaking spells can simply cost more to cast.

SilverClawShift
2007-11-07, 09:49 AM
As far as I'm aware, there are no hard and fast rules (especially considering the broad range of power within spell levels themselves).

1st level spells are simple spells that anyone who studies magic long enough can reasonably expect to cast. They don't level cities, they perform small semi-useful things. 9th level spells bend reality over the desk and spank it till it cries. Most spells fall somewhere in between.

Really, if you're making/converting spells, the best thing to do is to think of a similar spell, or put it in a spell level randomly. make it a 5th level spell. Is it too powerful for a 9th level spellcaster to have access to? Bump it up a level. Is it so that few spellcasters would realistically ever learn it in favor of other spells? Bump it down a level.
Ultimately, what you want is to be able to take the spell, a bunch of other spells of the same level, and say "Yeah, I'd be inclined to use any of these situationally". It should be a fairly reasonable choice to either use, or neglect it.

Galathir
2007-11-07, 09:53 AM
The easiest way would be to compare spells with spells from the other system. For example, the spell you mentioned (5d6 x 2 + effect) effectively does 10d6 + effect. I don't have my books with me, but that seems slightly more powerful than a fireball cast by a level 10 wizard. I don't know what the effect is, that would obviously change things considerably depending on how powerful it is. Anyway, a spell that does that damage plus an effect would probably be around a fifth level spell. Set damage like that is unusual for D&D, it's generally based on caster level. As such, it doesn't transfer very well.

If it was a fourth level spell, you would be doing 10d6 damage, about equal to a fireball cast by a caster three levels higher. However, if it was a fifth level spell, you would be doing the same damage as a level three spell. The problem is that it doesn't scale and doesn't really fit the mold of D&D damage spells.

I guess you could just guess and see what works.

fireinthedust
2007-11-07, 10:05 AM
yeah, thinking about those two methods. That's one thing that's really lacking for DnD: guidelines for power level regarding spells. I've been checking the damage numbers and comparing, and that may help.

what about other spells, like Web or Dimension Door?

I'm thinking:

1) damage dice used, shape and number (1d4+1/level, 1d6, 1d8, etc.)
2) Save DC to avoid an effect (strength check vs. web)
3) Ability of PCs to recover from the effect of that spell (ie: remove disease vs. contagion, restoration vs. vampiric touch, flesh to stone vs. stone to flesh; use of fire to burn a Web spell vs. need for epic weapons)
4) Area of effect... unsure the size.

Anything else that might help? and what would you say the guidelines for each level spell would be? Keep in mind I'm a low-level DM, as games don't often last long (schedules, etc.). I don't have the same perspective I might if I was in rpga a lot.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-11-07, 10:17 AM
The DMG has rough guidelines for creating your own spells on page 35-36, they might also help you a little.

fireinthedust
2007-11-07, 11:16 AM
hey cool!

although it's still a bit vague. I'm thinking hard, fast, number-crunching rules that make it easier to pump out spells that work. Like feats: a +1 bonus, +2 to a skill, a combat maneuver, affiliation with a group, etc.

Any spell compendiums that mention this sort of rule?

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-11-07, 11:27 AM
Any spell compendiums that mention this sort of rule?

No.

This message will now post.

shadowdemon_lord
2007-11-07, 03:55 PM
what your describing is akin to the psychic warriors zero level spells. +1 on a save as an immediate action, or +1 on an attack roll as an immediate action, etc. I don't see how a spell could grant you affiliation with a group though. What I've found is the best way to give spells levels is to compare them to a list of spells that do similar things at various levels. A spell that immobolises someone might be compared with web, otilukes resilent sphere, hold person, mass hold person, hold monster, and mass hold monster. Spells that do damage could be compared against magic missile, melfs acid arrow, fireball, cone of cold, delayed blast fireball, polar ray, flamestrike, firestorm, storm of vengeance, shout, and greater shout. If the spells don't really compare accurately against these, maybe they shouldn't be in the setting, or maybe you should eyeball it.

AslanCross
2007-11-07, 04:26 PM
4) Area of effect... unsure the size.


I see that a lot of damaging spread/burst spells usually have a radius of 20 feet. Apart from that there don't seem to be any consistent guidelines.

shadowdemon_lord
2007-11-07, 04:32 PM
Mass spells all follow the guidlines targets up to level, no two of which can be more then thirty feet apart. Cones tend to be 30' long.

AKA_Bait
2007-11-07, 04:42 PM
Fax's Guide to Homebrewing (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10313) should be helpful here.

Aquillion
2007-11-07, 05:36 PM
There's really only one relevent paragraph, and it's pretty common sense:
...compare it to similar spells. If you're making a better fireball, for instance, it should be higher level than fireball. However, if it's not as good as Delayed Blast Fireball, stick it somewhere in the middle.Just look for similar spells, and place your spell above the ones that it's better than, and below the ones that it's worse than.