playable constructs

[rediridesence]

So, i have a player who was interested in playing something similar to a mechanical-man, and im curious about it myself.

So, does anyone know a way for a player to play as a construct (or a humanoid with the construct type).

the current limitations for this are:
-no warforged (for certain reasons they don't exist in this world).
-no higher then level 4.
-standard starting wealth (5,400gp)
-All official WOTC books.
-dragon mag allowed.
-web material allowed.
-humanoid shaped if possible(player preference).
-No 3rd party books.

any help is appreciated.

[Doctor Despair]

There's a dragon magazine construct that's playable for PCs iirc. Modron or something like that... A quick Google search tells me they're in Dragon 354.

[newguydude1]

warforged are in mm3. so unless your banning mm3 there is no reason why you cant have a warforged.

whats the difference between a construct made by someone with la+3 and a construct made by someone with la+0?

how bout warforged scout? they dont exist anywhere except mm3. theyre mm3 exclusive.

[rediridesence]

warforged are in mm3. so unless your banning mm3 there is no reason why you cant have a warforged.

way to ignore what was posted. :tongue:

[Doctor Despair]

warforged are in mm3. so unless your banning mm3 there is no reason why you cant have a warforged.

The reason is that they don't exist in-universe; they told us that in the OP. It's like asking why you can't play a half-dragon character in a world where no dragons have ever existed. The DM is allowed to curate what races, classes, items, etc. exist in-setting.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Honestly, if a player really wants to play a construct but the DM doesn't want to allow constructs explicitly designed to be playable, then the player should play something else, or you should talk to the DM about making an exception.

It's not like warforged require being in Eberron, or whatever.

[Particle_Man]

If you don't mind figuring out the Level Adjustment yourself, what about a Homonculus? It can have between 2 to 6 racial HD, and then you would add class levels as you like. Say that the homonculus's master has gone away (or was kidnapped!) to another plane for a while (coincidentally at least as long as the campaign will last) because reasons, so the little guy is left to help out the party with the Quest for the MacGuffin or is meant to protect one of the party members that is the master's great-nephew or something like that, perhaps as part of a long term plan to get back to its master.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/homunculus.htm

[newguydude1]

The reason is that they don't exist in-universe; they told us that in the OP. It's like asking why you can't play a half-dragon character in a world where no dragons have ever existed. The DM is allowed to curate what races, classes, items, etc. exist in-setting.

and i was questioning why one type of construct doesnt exist in universe while another type of construct exist in universe. makes no sense.

force golems, stone golems, flesh golems, iron golems, warforged, what is the difference? theyre all artificially made by some wizard for reasons. he said warforged didnt exist right? so why cant the player character be the first warforged?

outside of eberron theres no difference between a warforged and a homunculus.

now if the op doesnt want to share why he banned warforged, or why he allows one type of inanimate object brought to life with an earth elemental spirit but not another type of inanimate object brought to life with an earth elemental spirit, then ok. alright.

theres also no reason he cant use the warforged and change the name to something else and call it a not warforged but same stats.

[ShurikVch]

There was the Construct Familiar feat in Dragon #280
Some of possible Familiars are playable: Improved Familiar includes such options as Muckdweller or Beguiler with explicit LA, and Dragon #293 published ECL for most of Monster Manual creatures (thus, Animals which can be Familiars - like Monkey is +0)
Play as ex-Familiar whose master was killed...

[Saint-Just]

and i was questioning why one type of construct doesnt exist in universe while another type of construct exist in universe. makes no sense.

force golems, stone golems, flesh golems, iron golems, warforged, what is the difference? theyre all artificially made by some wizard for reasons. he said warforged didnt exist right? so why cant the player character be the first warforged?

outside of eberron theres no difference between a warforged and a homunculus.

now if the op doesnt want to share why he banned warforged, or why he allows one type of inanimate object brought to life with an earth elemental spirit but not another type of inanimate object brought to life with an earth elemental spirit, then ok. alright.

theres also no reason he cant use the warforged and change the name to something else and call it a not warforged but same stats.

There are multiple possible reasons and not every official world allows for everything ever published even when they are thematically linked. Doppelgangers are a little bit more widespread than changelings, lycanthropes more than shifters. Even going back to the older editions Athas has never had the iconic dragons (as they are understood normally), and the first book outright stated that there is only The Dragon which barely resembles "normal" dragons (and even when later books revealed there are more, they were even further from the familiar concepts), yet there are drakes to provide the ever-popular dragonhide and dragonbone for adventurers. And gnomes did not exist despite being in the Core. In short - it's normal.

[newguydude1]

There are multiple possible reasons and not every official world allows for everything ever published even when they are thematically linked. Doppelgangers are a little bit more widespread than changelings, lycanthropes more than shifters. Even going back to the older editions Athas has never had the iconic dragons (as they are understood normally), and the first book outright stated that there is only The Dragon which barely resembles "normal" dragons (and even when later books revealed there are more, they were even further from the familiar concepts), yet there are drakes to provide the ever-popular dragonhide and dragonbone for adventurers. And gnomes did not exist despite being in the Core. In short - it's normal.

theres a difference why a living creature doesnt exist and why an artificial creature doesnt exist im saying.
like, why do red cars exist in the world but not blue cars? theyre both cars. made by wizards.

living creatures not existing that i can understand. evolution or whatever didnt occur that way. but were talking why spoons exist but not forks.

[rediridesence]

theres a difference why a living creature doesnt exist and why an artificial creature doesnt exist im saying.
like, why do red cars exist in the world but not blue cars? theyre both cars. made by wizards.

living creatures not existing that i can understand. evolution or whatever didnt occur that way. but were talking why spoons exist but not forks.

or you could just actually assist with the question, and not ignore the post.

but if you must know, in the most basic of explanations: due to deific intervention, all warforged were wiped from existence, along with all knowledge on how they were created, as well as the knowledge of them even existing.

so yes, no warforged.

[newguydude1]

or you could just actually assist with the question, and not ignore the post.

but if you must know, in the most basic of explanations: due to deific intervention, all warforged were wiped from existence, along with all knowledge on how they were created, as well as the knowledge of them even existing.

so yes, no warforged.

construct immunities and no intelligence score is the chief reason why all constructs are la:-. wotc really hates construct immunities.

ive studied constructs a lot so i can confidently say none in mm1-5, ff, and the other usual monster manuals dont have an la.
the closest i know of is savage species where it gives you guidelines on turning monster races including iron golems playable but outside that your out of luck.

i think one of the power gamey options was to use an human with the effigy template and use the savage species rules to give it a la:0. but nothing is wotc official.

[Doctor Despair]

Looks like the only out-of-the-box playable race offered thusfar is Modron. An Exiled Modron is the most suitable race for PC use:



+2 Con, +2 Int, -2 Dex, -2 Cha
Medium
Construct (living)
30ft land speed, vestigal wings
Surprise vulnerability: flat-footed until second turn in combat they didn't initiate. They can still act on first turn, but remain flat-footed.
Acid/cold/fire resistance 2.
+2 natural armor
+2 racial bonus on all saves against illusions and mind-affecting effects
-2 to charisma-based skills made against chaotic creatures
+2 racial bonus on spot and listen checks
Cannot wear standard armor or clothing, including robes, vests, and shirts; they must be custom-made.
Automatic languages: Common.
Bonus languages: Celestial, Gnome, Infernal, and Modron.
Favored Class: first class taken.
LA: +1



https://i.ibb.co/5RPFyd7/modron.png

[ShurikVch]

construct immunities and no intelligence score is the chief reason why all constructs are la:-. wotc really hates construct immunities.

ive studied constructs a lot so i can confidently say none in mm1-5, ff, and the other usual monster manuals dont have an la.
the closest i know of is savage species where it gives you guidelines on turning monster races including iron golems playable but outside that your out of luck.

i think one of the power gamey options was to use an human with the effigy template and use the savage species rules to give it a la:0. but nothing is wotc official.
Well...
Fiend Folio have Maug (2 HD and LA +3)
Savage Species also have Homunculus (2 HD and LA +3)

Lost Empires of Faerûn - Helmed Horror (13 HD and LA +3) and Battle Horror (20 HD and LA +4)

Dragon #355 - Conscious Scarecrows (5 HD and LA +4)

Dragon #293 published ECL for most of Monster Manual creatures; for Constructs, it has:
Animated Objects (ECL 5, 6, 8, 10, 14, 21, and 36),
Iron Golem (ECL 26; ECL for other "common" Golems are the same - or lower - in the Savage Species)
Retriever (ECL 20)
Shield Guardian (ECL 23)

[newguydude1]

Well...
Fiend Folio have Maug (2 HD and LA +3)

your right. but its 1 level too high for the op


Savage Species also have Homunculus (2 HD and LA +3))

mm updated it and its now la:-


Lost Empires of Faerûn - Helmed Horror (13 HD and LA +3) and Battle Horror (20 HD and LA +4)

leof isnt a usual monster book

maug is my one and only oversight.

[Particle_Man]

Looks like the only out-of-the-box playable race offered thusfar is Modron. An Exiled Modron is the most suitable race for PC use:


Am I the only one that finds it weird that int 10 and dumber modrons speak common but not modron?

Anyhow, would the OP's player feel ok with "working towards becoming a construct" or "having construct parts"?

Because there is the Green Star Adept prestige class for the former (warning, this prestige class is usually considered sub-optimal), and there are Maug grafts for the latter.

I guess there is also the "Awaken Construct" spell, if you don't mind a 9th level spell in the character's backstory.

[ShurikVch]

mm updated it and its now la:-
No, not exactly:
Flesh Golem have "LA: -" in the 3.5 Monster Manual too
But does it mean its monstrous class don't exists now? No.
Thus, if Savage Species is available, Homunculus is still playable; but if it isn't - then MM rules are in full effect

Also, aforementioned #293 gave Homunculus ECL 8
IMHO, it's too high, but if you just want to play Homunculus no matter what, it's still an option...

[newguydude1]

No, not exactly:
Flesh Golem have "LA: -" in the 3.5 Monster Manual too
But does it mean its monstrous class don't exists now? No.
Thus, if Savage Species is available, Homunculus is still playable; but if it isn't - then MM rules are in full effect

except savage species is 3.0 and mmi is 3.5. mmi wins. primary source rule or update rules and stuff like that.
savage species also has a la for shadows. i really wanted to be a shadow but mmi gave shadows la:- so i cant.

unless im wrong. im pretty sure latest printing of a monster/feat wins and theres an explicit rule for that.


I guess there is also the "Awaken Construct" spell, if you don't mind a 9th level spell in the character's backstory.

awaken construct doesnt give you an la.

[ShurikVch]

except savage species is 3.0 and mmi is 3.5. mmi wins. primary source rule or update rules and stuff like that.
savage species also has a la for shadows. i really wanted to be a shadow but mmi gave shadows la:- so i cant.

unless im wrong. im pretty sure latest printing of a monster/feat wins and theres an explicit rule for that.
"Apples and oranges":
if Monster Manual 3.5, actually, had Monster Classes - it would supersede Savage Species
But it didn't
Thus, Savage Species rules are still in full effect
And (since it would be rather weird to give LA-heavy classes to NPC only) it means all playable monstrous races in the Savage Species are still playable

[Doctor Despair]

"Apples and oranges":
if Monster Manual 3.5, actually, had Monster Classes - it would supersede Savage Species
But it didn't
Thus, Savage Species rules are still in full effect
And (since it would be rather weird to give LA-heavy classes to NPC only) it means all playable monstrous races in the Savage Species are still playable

Wouldn't it imply that the class exists, but there is no rules-legal PC who would be able to advance in it? If our only point of argument that Humonculi are legal is that "it would be weird if there was a 3.0 class for it when it's illegal to be that race in 3.5," I'm not sure that it follows to say "Humonculi must therefore be legal in 3.5."

[ShurikVch]

Wouldn't it imply that the class exists, but there is no rules-legal PC who would be able to advance in it? If our only point of argument that Humonculi are legal is that "it would be weird if there was a 3.0 class for it when it's illegal to be that race in 3.5," I'm not sure that it follows to say "Humonculi must therefore be legal in 3.5."
Well, alternate to it would be: "No, you can't play as a Flesh Golem! No, not even with LA +6 on top of it's 9 Construct HD. It was updated to LA - in the Monster Manual 3.5"

Also, Monster Classes in Savage Species have "monster races" for those classes (kinda "0th class level"); and, since "monster races" ≠ Monster Manual creatures, 3.5 revision doesn't do anything for them (although later Monster Classes - such as in Libris Mortis - may do)

[newguydude1]

Well, alternate to it would be: "No, you can't play as a Flesh Golem! No, not even with LA +6 on top of it's 9 Construct HD. It was updated to LA - in the Monster Manual 3.5"

Also, Monster Classes in Savage Species have "monster races" for those classes (kinda "0th class level"); and, since "monster races" ≠ Monster Manual creatures, 3.5 revision doesn't do anything for them (although later Monster Classes - such as in Libris Mortis - may do)

little confused but whatever.

savage species is a book that tells you how to give la to la:- monsters so i think monster classes is more than fine rule wise.

so i guess thats the answer to the ops question. get your player to play a 4th level homunculus monster class who has to continue leveling up as a homunculus until he finishes the entire class.

a better thing to do is to homebrew your own maug monster class. seems so much better than homunculus.

[Doctor Despair]

Well, alternate to it would be: "No, you can't play as a Flesh Golem! No, not even with LA +6 on top of it's 9 Construct HD. It was updated to LA - in the Monster Manual 3.5"

Also, Monster Classes in Savage Species have "monster races" for those classes (kinda "0th class level"); and, since "monster races" ≠ Monster Manual creatures, 3.5 revision doesn't do anything for them (although later Monster Classes - such as in Libris Mortis - may do)

I mean, that's RAW wrt Flesh Golems, right? The second point is more compelling though

[ShurikVch]

Also, Dustform Creature gives LA +2, but is Mindless...

[Doctor Despair]

Also, Dustform Creature gives LA +2, but is Mindless...

Is there a template that confers an int score to a creature that doesn't have one?

Edit: Maybe a large Dustform creature with Symbiotic Creature? You'd need a willing small party member with the template, of course, and you'd basically be giving up your chatacter...

[newguydude1]

Is there a template that confers an int score to a creature that doesn't have one?

theres a spell called awaken construct.

[Doctor Despair]

theres a spell called awaken construct.

You can't afford that with WBL at any reasonable level though :p

[Dalmosh]

Savage Species Flesh Golem Monster Class at whatever level the other PCs are at (4?).

But be aware that sticking to its official printed LA is going to be worse than playing a Commoner. Since the printed rules here simply don't work as they are meant to, you may be amenable to rebalancing them if its going to help add workable content into your game...

I personally balance Monster races to the LA reassignment thread rating, because I've seen a few unplayable monster PCs at my tables after sticking faithfully to WotC's (mostly horrible) printed LA's, and I LIKE people swimming against the current with character builds. The LA reassignment thread considers a Flesh Golem character to be weaker than its 9HD, rather than requiring the extra SIX level adjustment that Savage Species thinks it needs.

So, if it were me, I'd probably start them with a free construct HD (letting them be pretty tanky at level 1 - which a golem should be), and then let them progress through the remaining 7 HD as normal, and just see what happens from there. Or at the very least, I'd give them an extra feat by considering their race choice as a "flaw".

You could just about argue that since Libris Mortis doesn't state that you need to complete a monster class before taking other class levels, and it is a 3.5 source, that Savage Species Undead classes should be considered for partial completion too. A Construct might be similarly built "finished" at a powered down level of its full potential, though again, that's not RAW.
Formally, 3.5 (non-undead) Monster Classes should normally default to Planar Handbook/Races of Stone; which stipulate that you normally need to complete the full progression. We don't have an example of a post-Savage Species construct monster class though, so its not necessarily that cut-and-dry.

[Maat Mons]

It doesn't really make any sense to suppose a Dustform Creature hired someone to cast Awaken Construct on him. I mean, Dustform Creatures are mindless... and mute... and blind. Lots of challenges to overcome.

How would your player feel about being a haunted marionette? That's easy to do. You start out as a humanoid, get turned into a necropolitan, and then pay someone to cast Haunt Shift of you. Bam! You're a haunted marionette. Or a haunted something else.

But you want to be something with joints unless you start at 10th level or higher. At lower levels, you can't move unless you have joints... or flexible parts. But who wants to be a creepy toy made out of cloth when you could be a creepy toy made out of wood? Hardness 5 is better than no hardness at all!

And think of how much trouble a sentient teddy bear would have washing out all the blood he'd always be getting all over himself. Hard to lure in unsuspecting children when the evidence of your previous murders is right there for anyone to see.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Be a fiend of possession or a ghost and possess an object? If you're also a psion or have a psychoactive skin of proteus, use your status as an object/construct to become an animated object and pretend to be a haunted marionette (which actually IS a haunted marionette).

[Blue Jay]

Savage Species Flesh Golem Monster Class at whatever level the other PCs are at (4?).

But be aware that sticking to its official printed LA is going to be worse than playing a Commoner. Since the printed rules here simply don't work as they are meant to, you may be amenable to rebalancing them if its going to help add workable content into your game...

I personally balance Monster races to the LA reassignment thread rating, because I've seen a few unplayable monster PCs at my tables after sticking faithfully to WotC's (mostly horrible) printed LA's, and I LIKE people swimming against the current with character builds. The LA reassignment thread considers a Flesh Golem character to be weaker than its 9HD, rather than requiring the extra SIX level adjustment that Savage Species thinks it needs.

So, if it were me, I'd probably start them with a free construct HD (letting them be pretty tanky at level 1 - which a golem should be), and then let them progress through the remaining 7 HD as normal, and just see what happens from there. Or at the very least, I'd give them an extra feat by considering their race choice as a "flaw".

I made progressions for just about all of the monsters from MM and MM3, using the Reassigned LAs (only monsters with ECL 4 or higher are included, though). I haven't converted them to Playground format yet, so they're still just sitting at Myth-Weavers (https://www.myth-weavers.com/showthread.php?t=486034) at the moment. But you're welcome to use them.

I feel like the golems make a fair amount of sense here, because they're fairly simple and generic; though they might not be very fun to play, mechanically; and the Magic Immunity might be something you'd want to pay attention to. My progressions give the golems Spell Resistance, until it becomes immunity at the last level of the progression. Also, for clay and flesh golems, don't enforce the Berserk quality, or at least reduce the severity of it, because that's just mean.

Another option is to just let the player use the statistics of a Medium animated object (2 HD). Just give it an Intelligence score, probably reduce the Wis and Cha penalties, and say it's a statue (or something else humanoid-shaped) that can wield weapons. If you're nervous about the immunities and the Hardness quality being disruptive to your game, give it LA +1.

[newguydude1]

It doesn't really make any sense to suppose a Dustform Creature hired someone to cast Awaken Construct on him. I mean, Dustform Creatures are mindless... and mute... and blind. Lots of challenges to overcome.

thats not how it works. mindless creatures dont have sentience. so the moment someone casts awakening on the dustform creature is when the player first sees his pc.

[ShurikVch]

Soulfused Construct (MoI)? LA +1

[Mechalich]

Bladelings (MMII, LA +1) are outsiders, but they have a lot of superficial commonalities with constructs. Covered in metal, oily black blood, no actual need to eat. A bladeling that got transported to the Prime Material more or less immediately after their 'birth' (Bladelings manifest from shards of razor ice primed in the forest that surrounds their city on Acheron), might erroneously believe they were a construct. Thought I'd offer that as a possible workaround.

[Particle_Man]

Soulfused Construct (MoI)? LA +1

Wait, how does the LA +1 work if the template is attached to constructs that have no intelligence score and are not already living constructs? +1 to what, exactly? Won't the base constructs with no intelligence score have LA --, rather than LA 0?

[rel]

An easy and often overlooked approach is to make a custom creature with powers, LA and backstory tailored to the player and table.

[Segev]

I understand wa forged do not exist for world setting reasons. Is there a reason some other unique construct that uses warforged stats but doesn't look like them nor use their fluff would not work?

What are the setting limitations on what a construct can be, and what does the player want out of being a construct for his concept? "Being a construct" is almost as broad as "being an elf."

[Anthrowhale]

I'd suggest creating a monster progression for Maugs so they can start at 4th level, then take one more level of Maug.

There's quite a bit in the Fiend Folio about Maugs giving them backstory, and they are a solid melee race even with the LA+3 penalty. They have:

Construct type (and extraplanar subtype)
Large size
Natural Armor+7
SR 14
Str+10, Dex+4, Con---, Int+2, Cha+2
Special Ability: Rapid Repair (1hp/hour), Outsider skills for racial HD, Craft(Stonemasonry)+4, Knowledge(Architecture&Engineering)+4, Pulverize(Su) 3/day negate hardness for 1d4 rounds, access to Maug grafts
Bonus Feat: Alertness

Overall, it seems like an LA+3 penalty is pretty appropriate. You could easily shave it down to LA+2 by removing large size and going with:
Construct type (and extraplanar subtype)
Medium size
Natural Armor+5
SR 14
Str+2, Dex+6, Con---, Int+2, Cha+2
Special Ability: Rapid Repair (1hp/hour), Outsider skills for racial HD, Craft(Stonemasonry)+4, Knowledge(Architecture&Engineering)+4, Pulverize(Su) 3/day negate hardness for 1d4 rounds, access to Maug grafts
Bonus Feat: Alertness

Relative to a PHB handbook half-orc (for example), this would have a much higher AC, but lower to-hit and a penalty of 2 to all skills. Once 5th level is reached, the to-hit and damage become superior to a half-orc, but the Maug is missing a feat and 3 ranks in skills.

[ShurikVch]

a better thing to do is to homebrew your own maug monster class. seems so much better than homunculus.
That's strongly depends on: what, exactly, you're hoping to achieve by playing a construct?

If it's a beefy warrior which is immune to most of SoD/SoS effects - then yes, Maug is superior

But if it's a nimble skillmonkey which is impervious to poisons, able to squeeze through gaps which are barely big enough for a cat - then Homunculus is, obviously, better (especially considering the speed)

But, if all they need from the Construct is "LOL! ROBOT!" - then anything will work (maybe, not even a Construct at all - as long as its looks "metallic" enough)



Wait, how does the LA +1 work if the template is attached to constructs that have no intelligence score and are not already living constructs? +1 to what, exactly? Won't the base constructs with no intelligence score have LA --, rather than LA 0?
Dustform Creature template (Sandstorm) makes base creature Mindless, but gives it LA +2
Thus, Dustform Creature is a legal variant for playable Soulfused Construct

[Doctor Despair]

Of note, isn't there an Incarnum template for constructs that gives negative 2 LA somehow?

[Particle_Man]

Dustform Creature template (Sandstorm) makes base creature Mindless, but gives it LA +2
Thus, Dustform Creature is a legal variant for playable Soulfused Construct

Well then I guess a Soulfused Dustform Human would work? It could even have a single class level in something. That seems to fit the OP's criteria. Might be a little weak with 1 HD at level 4, but thats Level Adjustment for you. Maybe the LA could be bought off later.

https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/reducingLevelAdjustments.htm

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Probably the easiest solution is to pick one of the constructs that the LA Assignment Threads have done, giving you a theoretically viable LA for (at the very least) all the ones in the MM. That is definitely homebrew, but should be relatively balanced and fair.

If that's not on the table, then of the other options mentioned so far, the Modrun seems the best from a mechanical (heh) standpoint.

There's also Mechanatrix from the Fiend Folio, which is like a construct in the way a Tiefling is like a fiend. LA +0, I think, though that may be for Lesser Mechanatrix.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Awakened human effigy (CAr).

It's got one construct HD and assigning a level adjustment via SS guidelines should be fairly trivial.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Awakened human effigy (CAr).

It's got one construct HD and assigning a level adjustment via SS guidelines should be fairly trivial.What would an awakened dvati effigy be like? I mean, you'd lose all of your special qualities but keep the special attacks which require at least one special ability to function.