New version of Bite of the Were-X

[Melcar]

So, playing a gish, the Bite of the Were X line of spells are some of the better buff spells. I was thinking of maybe researching a new version of this spell!


So assuming the DM has allowed your gish to researching a new version of the Bite of the Were X what would be some good creatures to adobt?

And how would one go about figuring out what specific boon it should get? Is there a system that defines the bonuses gained in the official spells or are they just completely random?


Thanks!

[Biggus]

They're based quite closely on either the animal form of the were-animal in question, or the corresponding animal itself, with some exceptions.

Str, Dex and Con bonuses are taken from the actual animals, converting their ability scores into an even-numbered bonus, ie 10-11 is +0, 12-13 is +2 and so on.

Natural AC bonuses are the same as the were-creature in its animal form.

Bite and claw damage are the same as the animal in question, with the exception that the boar's gore attack is turned into a bite attack (with the same damage).

Were-rats get Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat, the same as dire rats. The other bonus feats seem to be chosen more or less arbitrarily.

Edit: if you're looking for lower-level versions, there are plenty of animals to choose from. For higher-level ones there's not much which has significantly better stats than a brown bear, although a reasonably generous DM might allow Bite of the Were-triceratops, Were-spinosaurus, Were-woollymammoth or Were-direpolarbear...

[Melcar]

They're based quite closely on either the animal form of the were-animal in question, or the corresponding animal itself, with some exceptions.

Str, Dex and Con bonuses are taken from the actual animals, converting their ability scores into an even-numbered bonus, ie 10-11 is +0, 12-13 is +2 and so on.

Natural AC bonuses are the same as the were-creature in its animal form.

Bite and claw damage are the same as the animal in question, with the exception that the boar's gore attack is turned into a bite attack (with the same damage).

Were-rats get Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat, the same as dire rats. The other bonus feats seem to be chosen more or less arbitrarily.

Edit: if you're looking for lower-level versions, there are plenty of animals to choose from. For higher-level ones there's not much which has significantly better stats than a brown bear, although a reasonably generous DM might allow Bite of the Were-triceratops, Were-spinosaurus, Were-woollymammoth or Were-direpolarbear...

Ok cool, thanks!

I found this (https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Were-Creature_Bonuses_(3.5e_Other)) feference, and although I see not official it might be a good starting point? What you think?

So, lets say I wanted to make a Bite of the Dire Werewolverine version, which acording to the link, would yeild some nice bonuses. Now, I'm unsure of how the level of the spell is dertermined. On the one hand it could be the bonuses, size of the creature or HD of the creature. What I'm basically trying to ask here is what level would my Bire of the Dire Werewolverine be, if you gained the bonuses described in the link above? - I can't seem to figure out the level determination based on the official ones!

Thanks!

[Biggus]

That table tells you what ability score buffs the spell should give you. Natural armor bonuses are the same as the base animal +2.

For feats, insofar as there is a logic to it, it seems to be: if the Dex bonus it gives you is higher than the Str bonus, gain Weapon Finesse, if not, gain Blind-Fight. If it gives you a high Str bonus ("high" starting at somewhere between +6 and +12) also gain Power Attack.

So based on that, Bite of the Dire Werewolverine would give you +12 Str, +6 Dex, +8 Con, +6 Nat AC, 2 claws 1d6, 1 bite 1d8, Blind-Fight, Power Attack.

In the main, determining spell level seems to be more of an art than a science (as evidenced by a number of official spells being clearly under- or over-levelled), so I think the best way is to compare it to the existing Bite of the Were-X ones. In this case, it's pretty easy; the Str bonus is the same as Bite of the Weretiger, the Dex, Con and Nat AC bonuses slightly better, and the claw and bite damage slightly worse, so it should be the same level (Druid 5, Sorcerer/Wizard 6).

[Melcar]

That table tells you what ability score buffs the spell should give you. Natural armor bonuses are the same as the base animal +2.

For feats, insofar as there is a logic to it, it seems to be: if the Dex bonus it gives you is higher than the Str bonus, gain Weapon Finesse, if not, gain Blind-Fight. If it gives you a high Str bonus ("high" starting at somewhere between +6 and +12) also gain Power Attack.

So based on that, Bite of the Dire Werewolverine would give you +12 Str, +6 Dex, +8 Con, +6 Nat AC, 2 claws 1d6, 1 bite 1d8, Blind-Fight, Power Attack.

In the main, determining spell level seems to be more of an art than a science (as evidenced by a number of official spells being clearly under- or over-levelled), so I think the best way is to compare it to the existing Bite of the Were-X ones. In this case, it's pretty easy; the Str bonus is the same as Bite of the Weretiger, the Dex, Con and Nat AC bonuses slightly better, and the claw and bite damage slightly worse, so it should be the same level (Druid 5, Sorcerer/Wizard 6).

Thank you very much... thats a big help.

Would I be able to venture you for just one more...

The Desmodu War Bat, seems like a very very good candidate, albeing a flying creature. Is there anything prohibiting one from using a flying creature as the basis? And how would a Bite of the Were-desmodu War Bat look like?

If I understand correctly it would look something like:

Bite of the Were-desmodu War Bat
Transmutation
Level: Druid 7, Sorcerer 8, Walker In the Waste 8, Wizard 8,
Components: V, S, M,
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Touch
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: No
Spell Resistance: No
You gain a +14 enhancement bonus to Strength, + 12 enhancement bonus to Dexterity, a +10 enhancement bonus to Constitution, and a +11 enhancement bonus to natural armor. Your face lengthens into a batlike snout, and you gain a bite attack that deals 2d6 points of damage (or 1d8 points if you are Small) + 1-1/2 times your Str modifier. You also gain the benefit of the blind-Fight and Power Attack feat. If your base attack bonus is +6 or higher, you do not gain any additional attacks.

What do you think?


Thanks!

[liquidformat]

Edit: if you're looking for lower-level versions, there are plenty of animals to choose from. For higher-level ones there's not much which has significantly better stats than a brown bear, although a reasonably generous DM might allow Bite of the Were-triceratops, Were-spinosaurus, Were-woollymammoth or Were-direpolarbear...
Note Were creatures are supposed to be predator carnivores/omnivores so there wouldn't be Were-triceratops or Were-woollymammoth...


Thank you very much... thats a big help.

Would I be able to venture you for just one more...

The Desmodu War Bat, seems like a very very good candidate, albeing a flying creature. Is there anything prohibiting one from using a flying creature as the basis? And how would a Bite of the Were-desmodu War Bat look like?

If I understand correctly it would look something like:

Bite of the Were-desmodu War Bat
Transmutation
Level: Druid 7, Sorcerer 8, Walker In the Waste 8, Wizard 8,
Components: V, S, M,
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Touch
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: No
Spell Resistance: No
You gain a +14 enhancement bonus to Strength, + 12 enhancement bonus to Dexterity, a +10 enhancement bonus to Constitution, and a +11 enhancement bonus to natural armor. Your face lengthens into a batlike snout, and you gain a bite attack that deals 2d6 points of damage (or 1d8 points if you are Small) + 1-1/2 times your Str modifier. You also gain the benefit of the blind-Fight and Power Attack feat. If your base attack bonus is +6 or higher, you do not gain any additional attacks.

What do you think?


Thanks!

That works, I think Druid 7, S/W 8 seems about right for the power level of that spell. Alternatively, if you want to make it a bit more unique rather than giving power attack you could give it Blind-Fight and Blindsight, 5-foot Radius feat (it can be found in Sword and Fist and Deities and Demigods)

Similarly you could do Bite of the Were-Boar Lord or Bite of the Were-Fhorge and give Blind-Fight and Diehard at Druid 5 or 6. Typically the 'Dire' Animals should be changed to 'Lord' for were creature naming.

[Biggus]

The Desmodu War Bat, seems like a very very good candidate, albeing a flying creature. Is there anything prohibiting one from using a flying creature as the basis?

Not as far as I know.



If I understand correctly it would look something like:

Bite of the Were-desmodu War Bat
Transmutation
Level: Druid 7, Sorcerer 8, Walker In the Waste 8, Wizard 8,
Components: V, S, M,
Casting Time: 1 Standard Action
Range: Touch
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw: No
Spell Resistance: No
You gain a +14 enhancement bonus to Strength, + 12 enhancement bonus to Dexterity, a +10 enhancement bonus to Constitution, and a +11 enhancement bonus to natural armor. Your face lengthens into a batlike snout, and you gain a bite attack that deals 2d6 points of damage (or 1d8 points if you are Small) + 1-1/2 times your Str modifier. You also gain the benefit of the blind-Fight and Power Attack feat. If your base attack bonus is +6 or higher, you do not gain any additional attacks.

The bonuses and spell level all look right. I agree with liquidformat that it might be appropriate to vary the feats as the War Bat is a lot a different to the standard were-creatures. Blind-Fight seems highly appropriate for a bat, Power Attack perhaps not so much.

Arguably for 8th and 9th level spells it might be appropriate to grant a third bonus feat or even a special ability such as flight, but that's very much a DM judgement call.


Note Were creatures are supposed to be predator carnivores/omnivores so there wouldn't be Were-triceratops or Were-woollymammoth...


Oh yeah, good catch.

[Melcar]

Edit: if you're looking for lower-level versions, there are plenty of animals to choose from. For higher-level ones there's not much which has significantly better stats than a brown bear, although a reasonably generous DM might allow Bite of the Were-triceratops, Were-spinosaurus, Were-woollymammoth or Were-direpolarbear...

I would love to hear your suggestions for both low or high level versions... I’m playing a Dex based Gish, that’s why I’m looking for “better” versions of the spell... while str is still important for dam (for now) Dex is as important...




The bonuses and spell level all look right. I agree with liquidformat that it might be appropriate to vary the feats as the War Bat is a lot a different to the standard were-creatures. Blind-Fight seems highly appropriate for a bat, Power Attack perhaps not so much.

Arguably for 8th and 9th level spells it might be appropriate to grant a third bonus feat or even a special ability such as flight, but that's very much a DM judgement call.

Good point about the feats for the bat version!

[Aleolus]

Just for the record, any carnivore or omnivore species can be used for the were template, as long as it is within one size of the creature who will be getting the template, but the spells bypass that particular rule. Therefore, unless I am mistaken, the best animal to use for a high-level Bite of the Were X spell would undoubtedly be a Roc. In addition to the appropriate Str/Con bonuses and natural armor, it would also grant the ability to fly.

[Biggus]

I would love to hear your suggestions for both low or high level versions... I’m playing a Dex based Gish, that’s why I’m looking for “better” versions of the spell... while str is still important for dam (for now) Dex is as important...


I'm afraid I can't think of anything better than the War Bat if you want both Str and Dex. For a Str-based gish there are a few powerful enough to make a 9th-level spell (Zeuglodon, Dire Polar Bear and Battletitan). I'll let you know if I find anything else.

Cat would probably suit you for a 2nd-level spell. +4 Dex, +2 Nat AC, 1d3 bite, 1d2 claws, Weapon Finesse.

[Melcar]

I'm afraid I can't think of anything better than the War Bat if you want both Str and Dex. For a Str-based gish there are a few powerful enough to make a 9th-level spell (Zeuglodon, Dire Polar Bear and Battletitan). I'll let you know if I find anything else.

That would be awesome honestly, thanks!

I have been scouring the internetz for gish guides and "best spells for gishes" and most of the spells mentioned just seems to be taken from "Logic Ninja's guide to being Batman"... great spells all, but not necessarily what I'm looking for in a Dex based fighter wizard... For instance, I don't want battlefield control spells, nor am I that interested in directly offensive spells... I'm looking for spells that specifically increases my capability in melee combat - both offensively and defensively... and that I having been able to find a ton of. Bite of the Were-X line seems like some of the best out there for my particular build...

So, I'm trying to infuse some creativity into my build. Our DM has allowed plenty of custom items and spells int the past, so I assume he will again, if they are balanced.

Hit me up if any good buff ideas come to mind!

Thanks!

[Biggus]

I have been scouring the internetz for gish guides and "best spells for gishes" and most of the spells mentioned just seems to be taken from "Logic Ninja's guide to being Batman"... great spells all, but not necessarily what I'm looking for in a Dex based fighter wizard... For instance, I don't want battlefield control spells, nor am I that interested in directly offensive spells... I'm looking for spells that specifically increases my capability in melee combat - both offensively and defensively... and that I having been able to find a ton of. Bite of the Were-X line seems like some of the best out there for my particular build...

So, I'm trying to infuse some creativity into my build. Our DM has allowed plenty of custom items and spells int the past, so I assume he will again, if they are balanced.

Hit me up if any good buff ideas come to mind!

Thanks!

What buffs do you have currently? Also, does your DM allow you to research spells from other classes' lists as Wizard spells?

For ability score buffs this is the best resource I know of, it's got *nearly* all of them: http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=176.0

[AnimeTheCat]

Note Were creatures are supposed to be predator carnivores/omnivores so there wouldn't be Were-triceratops or Were-woollymammoth...

Unless your world is also that of Dwarf Fortress. Then you can get Werehorses, Werezebras, Weresheep, Werebutts (not as much fun as what is said in DF), etc.

OP, you could probably create a Bite of the Mutated Wererat or similar line of spells that give you more heads, arms, claws, wings, tails, etc that are improvements to the original spells and are like, a spell level or two higher. Bite of the Arcanowarped Weretiger could include like... arcane burst on bite crits and give you spell resistance or spell deflection or something. Get creative with it, and I'm sure you can find some really cool custom modifications to make in to some new spells.

[Melcar]

What buffs do you have currently? Also, does your DM allow you to research spells from other classes' lists as Wizard spells?

For ability score buffs this is the best resource I know of, it's got *nearly* all of them: http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=176.0

Thanks for the link.

At the moment I'm level 8 elf (4 fighter/ 4 Wizard and I have the following spells:

Level 1:
Ebon Eyes
Mage Armor
Eyes of the Avoral
Feather Fall
Identify
Karmic Aura
Kaupaer’s Skittish Nerves
Magic Missile
Protection from Evil
Ray of Clumsiness
Scholar’s Touch
Shield*

Level 2:
Cat’s Grace
Heroics
Invisibility
Luminous Armor
Mirror Image
Mirror Move
Ray of Resurgence
Resist energy*
Touch of Idiocy
Whirling Blade


Level 3 (when I get access):
Bite of the Wererat
Dispel Magic*
Displacement
Dolorous Blow
Mage Armor, Greater
Fly
Haste
Heroism
Magic Circle against Evil
Magical Weapon, Greater
Moon's Change


So I do have some... I just don't feel like I've found that many... I'm certain I have missed some real nice ones... The party does include a cleric and a conjurer, so I am not filling the role of offensive or utility caster for that matter. I'm probably closest to filling the role as off tank/melee dps. My AC can get pretty high, but my damage is fairly low (1d8+6 18-20/x2).




OP, you could probably create a Bite of the Mutated Wererat or similar line of spells that give you more heads, arms, claws, wings, tails, etc that are improvements to the original spells and are like, a spell level or two higher. Bite of the Arcanowarped Weretiger could include like... arcane burst on bite crits and give you spell resistance or spell deflection or something. Get creative with it, and I'm sure you can find some really cool custom modifications to make in to some new spells.

That's not a bad idea to look into...

[Biggus]

I'm probably closest to filling the role as off tank/melee dps. My AC can get pretty high, but my damage is fairly low (1d8+6 18-20/x2).


Keen Edge would synergize nicely with your 18-20 threat range once you get 3rd-level spells. For some extra damage, Burning Sword and Sonic Weapon (both SpC) are decent.

[Melcar]

Keen Edge would synergize nicely with your 18-20 threat range once you get 3rd-level spells. For some extra damage, Burning Sword and Sonic Weapon (both SpC) are decent.

Thats true! I have that covered with Doloros Blow, but there might very well be some utility in the longer duration of Keen Edge...

Burning Sword is nice too... are there any way of increasing crit multiplying with items or spells, so as to gain even more damage from burning sword?

I haven't been able to find anything, accept 3rd party stuff... One could argue that compared to magic, increasing one's crit modifier from one step would not be broken in any way, but I only know about a few class abilities that does that... not what im looking for here!

[Biggus]

Thats true! I have that covered with Doloros Blow, but there might very well be some utility in the longer duration of Keen Edge...

Oh yes, so you do. It's situational which is better I think, with a cheap Lesser Metamagic Extend Rod Keen Edge can last a few hours even at lowish levels but obviously the bonuses from Dolorous Blow are better.


Burning Sword is nice too... are there any way of increasing crit multiplying with items or spells, so as to gain even more damage from burning sword?


Very few sadly, if you're relatively cheese-tolerant there's kaorti resin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a) but that's about it.

[Melcar]

Oh yes, so you do. It's situational which is better I think, with a cheap Lesser Metamagic Extend Rod Keen Edge can last a few hours even at lowish levels but obviously the bonuses from Dolorous Blow are better.



Very few sadly, if you're relatively cheese-tolerant there's kaorti resin (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a) but that's about it.

I thought as much...

By the way, I'm actually a little curious about who the Bite of the Were spells can effect?

On Bite of the Weretiger and rat says "Range: Touch", "Target: You" does that mean that I can touch others or only my self? Usually its either personal or touch, not both?

Thanks!

[Biggus]

By the way, I'm actually a little curious about who the Bite of the Were spells can effect?

On Bite of the Weretiger and rat says "Range: Touch", "Target: You" does that mean that I can touch others or only my self? Usually its either personal or touch, not both?

Thanks!

Hmmm, that's weird, in my copy of the Spell Compendium they're all listed as range: personal, but when I Google them they come up as you describe them. I can only guess that your copy is older than mine and it's a mistake that was corrected in later printings, although it's not listed in the SpC errata. Odd.

[Melcar]

Hmmm, that's weird, in my copy of the Spell Compendium they're all listed as range: personal, but when I Google them they come up as you describe them. I can only guess that your copy is older than mine and it's a mistake that was corrected in later printings, although it's not listed in the SpC errata. Odd.

Ahh.. I haven't even looked at the book verison, stupid me, I'm so used to using the online resources... lets me just check... Indeed its only personal... the online source has added some error adding a range of touch. That'll teach me to no open my actual books! :smallredface:

[Biggus]

Found some creatures that might be suitable for a 9th-level Bite of... spell for your character (MM2, under Legendary Animal):

Legendary Wolf. +14 Str, +18 Dex, +10 Con, +7 Nat AC.

Legendary Snake. +16 Str +14 Dex +14 Con, +8 Nat AC.

There's also Legendary Eagle in the same place. Its Str, Con, and Nat AC aren't much, but its Dex is +20(!). I'd probably rate it as a 7th-level spell for a Wizard.