3 spells in a round with Action Surge?

[5eNeedsDarksun]

So as the title says, what are people's thoughts on an Action surging EK or multiclass fighter casting a bonus action spell (let's say Misty Step), then casting a cantrip, and using their extra action to cast another full spell? RAW?

[JackPhoenix]

No. If you cast bonus action spell, you can only cast cantrips with until the start of your next turn, no matter how many actions you'll get.

[Xetheral]

The only way to cast three leveled spells in a round is using two Actions (with Action Surge) to cast leveled spells, and then triggering the right conditions to cast a leveled Reaction spell.

Casting a Bonus Action spell completely locks you out of Reaction spells and leveled Action spells for your entire turn.

[Lunali]

You can, however, cast 3 spells in a turn with two cantrips and a bonus action spell, 4 in a round if you find a way to cast as a reaction when it isn't your turn.

[da newt]

Casting a Bonus Action spell completely locks you out of Reaction spells and leveled Action spells for your entire turn.

I don't think casting a BA spell prohibits you from casting a reaction spell that round - it does restrict you from casting an action spell (cantrip only) on that turn, but that's it. Right?

[PhoenixPhyre]

I don't think casting a BA spell prohibits you from casting a reaction spell that round - it does restrict you from casting an action spell (cantrip only) on that turn, but that's it. Right?

I read their post as

If you cast a bonus action spell then (on your turn) you cannot cast a reaction spell or any leveled spell.

Which is totally RAW--the restriction is for that turn. You can't cast a reaction spell on your turn because it's not a (cantrip with 1 action cast time), but that restriction goes away at the end of your turn. You can't cast a leveled 1-action spell not on your turn because you can't take actions off turn except a reaction. But you can cast a reaction spell off turn.

Turn =/= round.

[MaxWilson]

The only way to cast three leveled spells in a round is using two Actions (with Action Surge) to cast leveled spells, and then triggering the right conditions to cast a leveled Reaction spell.

Casting a Bonus Action spell completely locks you out of Reaction spells and leveled Action spells for your entire turn.

Well, not quite the only way. You can also Shapechange into a Marilith and potentially use Warcaster to cast multiple spells with your multiple reactions.

[cookieface]

I read their post as

If you cast a bonus action spell then (on your turn) you cannot cast a reaction spell or any leveled spell.

Which is totally RAW--the restriction is for that turn. You can't cast a reaction spell on your turn because it's not a (cantrip with 1 action cast time), but that restriction goes away at the end of your turn. You can't cast a leveled 1-action spell not on your turn because you can't take actions off turn except a reaction. But you can cast a reaction spell off turn.

Turn =/= round.

Reaction spells are outside of the normal "only one leveled spell per turn" rule, weirdly enough. Sage Advice clarified this:

Can you cast a reaction spell on your turn? You sure can!
Here’s a common way for it to happen: Cornelius the wizard
is casting fireball on his turn, and his foe casts counterspell
on him. Cornelius also has counterspell prepared, so he
uses his reaction to cast it and break his foe’s counterspell
before it can stop fireball

ETA: I'll never understand why the language for this rule is so convoluted. So easy to just say, "You cannot use both your action and bonus action to cast spells during the same turn, unless at least one of those spells is a cantrip." I get that that is not exactly what the rule says currently, but it is simple enough and similar enough that this is how I always describe it anyways. If there's a reason this language would be somehow gamebreaking while the current reading is not then I haven't seen it.

(Additionally, there's a bit of confusion, for me at least, if Readying a Spell is to be considered as "casting a spell on your turn". With the current rules it is unclear whether a player could cast Misty Step to get into the thick of the fray, then Ready Mage Armor with the trigger "as soon as someone comes within melee range of me.")

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I don't think casting a BA spell prohibits you from casting a reaction spell that round - it does restrict you from casting an action spell (cantrip only) on that turn, but that's it. Right?

For reference:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/phb/spellcasting#BonusAction


Bonus Action
A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action.

If you cast a BA spell, you can't also cast a reaction spell during your same turn. Casting any BA spell limits your spell choices that turn to cantrips with a casting time of 1 action. It actually specifies a cantrip, i.e. only one, so even if you Action Surge you probably can't even cast a second cantrip, depending on your DM's interpretation of that.

You can cast a reaction spell during someone else's turn after casting a BA spell, just not on your own turn.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Reaction spells are outside of the normal "only one leveled spell per turn" rule, weirdly enough. Sage Advice clarified this:

Can you cast a reaction spell on your turn? You sure can!
Here’s a common way for it to happen: Cornelius the wizard
is casting fireball on his turn, and his foe casts counterspell
on him. Cornelius also has counterspell prepared, so he
uses his reaction to cast it and break his foe’s counterspell
before it can stop fireball

ETA: I'll never understand why the language for this rule is so convoluted. So easy to just say, "You cannot use both your action and bonus action to cast spells during the same turn, unless at least one of those spells is a cantrip." I get that that is not exactly what the rule says currently, but it is simple enough and similar enough that this is how I always describe it anyways. If there's a reason this language would be somehow gamebreaking while the current reading is not then I haven't seen it.

(Additionally, there's a bit of confusion, for me at least, if Readying a Spell is to be considered as "casting a spell on your turn". With the current rules it is unclear whether a player could cast Misty Step to get into the thick of the fray, then Ready Mage Armor with the trigger "as soon as someone comes within melee range of me.")

There is no "only one leveled spell per turn" rule.

There is a rule about bonus action spells. And only bonus action spells.

If somehow you had 3 actions, you could cast leveled actions with all of them if and only if you did not cast any bonus action spells that turn. You can even mix up with reaction spells under that same condition.

The restriction only applies when you cast a bonus action spell. You can only do so if and only if the only other spell you cast that turn is a cantrip with a 1-action cast time. That cuts out reaction spells.

So yes, you can normally cast reaction spells on your own turn. Just not on the same turn you cast a bonus action spell.

Edit: and when you ready a spell, you cast it and then hold the discharge. So if you Misty Step, you cannot ready a non-cantrip.

Additionally, why in the world would you ready Mage Armor? It's got an 8 hour duration!

[cookieface]

There is no "only one leveled spell per turn" rule.

There is a rule about bonus action spells. And only bonus action spells.

If somehow you had 3 actions, you could cast leveled actions with all of them if and only if you did not cast any bonus action spells that turn. You can even mix up with reaction spells under that same condition.

The restriction only applies when you cast a bonus action spell. You can only do so if and only if the only other spell you cast that turn is a cantrip with a 1-action cast time. That cuts out reaction spells.

So yes, you can normally cast reaction spells on your own turn. Just not on the same turn you cast a bonus action spell.

Edit: and when you ready a spell, you cast it and then hold the discharge. So if you Misty Step, you cannot ready a non-cantrip.

Additionally, why in the world would you ready Mage Armor? It's got an 8 hour duration!

Yes, I was imprecise with some language. Sorry about that.

My larger point is that this distinction doesn't make a ton of sense, to me. BA spells are specifically stated to be swift and quick to cast ... but they are the only spells to carry a restriction on how many spells overall can be cast a turn? In the Counterspell example -- a PC could cast Fireball and Counterspell, but not the "especially swift" Misty Step and Counterspell. That makes zero sense to me, logically (though I totally understand it mechanically).

My point about Mage Armor was just an example. (Though I could see a case of someone attempting to do this if they didn't have it already cast and attempting to get around the no-BA-spell-and-Action-spell-in-same-turn option.) And now that you say it, I do see the language in "Ready" that would mean you cannot Ready a spell to get around this stipulation.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Yes, I was imprecise with some language. Sorry about that.

My larger point is that this distinction doesn't make a ton of sense, to me. BA spells are specifically stated to be swift and quick to cast ... but they are the only spells to carry a restriction on how many spells overall can be cast a turn? In the Counterspell example -- a PC could cast Fireball and Counterspell, but not the "especially swift" Misty Step and Counterspell. That makes zero sense to me, logically (though I totally understand it mechanically).

My point about Mage Armor was just an example. (Though I could see a case of someone attempting to do this if they didn't have it already cast and attempting to get around the no-BA-spell-and-Action-spell-in-same-turn option.) And now that you say it, I do see the language in "Ready" that would mean you cannot Ready a spell to get around this stipulation.

Swift does not mean easy. A swift action like that takes particular focus that blocks other concurrent spellcasting. The in-universe rationale is pretty clear to me. I see reaction spells as being more like bursts of almost unfocused energy that you can weave in with more complicated spells. While bonus action spells are as intricate as a full action spell, just condensed into a shorter time. Those key phrasings and motions can't be interwoven with anything of any significant complexity. Remember that turns are not subdivided in-universe--you don't move, stop, cast a spell, cast a different spell, then move. You are moving and casting multiple spells all at once, while other people are doing other things.

And the mechanical rule is, in my opinion, absolutely clear. I'm not sure why people get so hung up on it, other than by trying to make it something it isn't (by making it a more general rule).

And the mechanical rationale is also perfectly clear. They wanted to put a hard kibosh on the action-economy shenanigans that characterized 3e and 4e. They actively did not want (and I've heard Crawford even say this explicitly) people to worry about optimizing their action economy and thinking "I always have to stuff a bonus action in there." And spells are a major focal point for those shenanigans. Reaction spells have triggers that aren't so easy to control and are really rare in general.

[cookieface]

While bonus action spells are as intricate as a full action spell, just condensed into a shorter time.

This is the crux of why I think it doesn't make sense in-universe. Again, BA spells are written to be "especially swift" but somehow you can't case a BA spell and a reaction in the same turn. And yet you CAN cast a normal Action spell and a reaction in the same turn. There's no good reason for that, in my opinion.

And none of the additional rationale you gave explains why "You cannot use an Action and a Bonus Action to cast a (non-cantrip) spell in the same turn" is worse than the current wording. It's nearly the same, functionally -- the only difference is that this allows, say, Shillelagh and Cure Wounds in one turn, while the current wording does not allow it -- and it doesn't read as clunkily as the current wording.

[Xetheral]

I don't think casting a BA spell prohibits you from casting a reaction spell that round - it does restrict you from casting an action spell (cantrip only) on that turn, but that's it. Right?

PhoenixPhyre's response was dead on--I was referring only to being locked of casting a Reaction spell on your turn.

[opaopajr]

The question has been answered sufficiently. :smallcool: But I just wanted to add that -- per your topic title -- yes you can. EK gets two uses of Action Surge at Fighter 17th lvl. :smalltongue:

/insert LARP "Fireball, fireball, fireball!" video here

[PhantomSoul]

The question has been answered sufficiently. :smallcool: But I just wanted to add that -- per your topic title -- yes you can. EK gets two uses of Action Surge at Fighter 17th lvl. :smalltongue:

/insert LARP "Fireball, fireball, fireball!" video here

You can't use a second Action Surge on the same Turn as the first (the Feature excludes that option directly), but you can still use a bonus action (as long as every other spell is a cantrip) and/or a reaction (as long as you can get a reaction spell triggered by jumping off a cliff or something, of course), to regurgitate the thread.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The question has been answered sufficiently. :smallcool: But I just wanted to add that -- per your topic title -- yes you can. EK gets two uses of Action Surge at Fighter 17th lvl. :smalltongue:

/insert LARP "Fireball, fireball, fireball!" video here

It's actually "Lightning bolt, lightning bolt, lightning bolt!" if anyone is interested in looking up a classic.

[greenstone]

I think it is Bonus Actions that don't make sense, and if I were designing the system I wouldn't have added them. :smallbiggrin:

[Milmoor]

For reference:
You can cast a reaction spell during someone else's turn after casting a BA spell, just not on your own turn.
Two even, one before and one during or after your turn. Counter spell wars: fireball, counter spell by the enemy, counter spell the counter spell. https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/21/can-a-reaction-be-used-on-my-turn/

[J.C.]

How much prep time do you get? Can I be concentrating on a spell from the turn before?

[kazaryu]

I read their post as

If you cast a bonus action spell then (on your turn) you cannot cast a reaction spell or any leveled spell.

Which is totally RAW--the restriction is for that turn. You can't cast a reaction spell on your turn because it's not a (cantrip with 1 action cast time), but that restriction goes away at the end of your turn. You can't cast a leveled 1-action spell not on your turn because you can't take actions off turn except a reaction. But you can cast a reaction spell off turn.

Turn =/= round.

while it doesn't *technically* get around the restriction, you can *effectively* get around that restriction by taking the readied action with your actions urged action, and just...cast a spell as a reaction immediately when your turn ends. unless im missing something.

[Tanarii]

while it doesn't *technically* get around the restriction, you can *effectively* get around that restriction by taking the readied action with your actions urged action, and just...cast a spell as a reaction immediately when your turn ends. unless im missing something.
Readying a spelll counts as casting the spell as normal. So it follows any on-turn restrictions.

[kazaryu]

Readying a spelll counts as casting the spell as normal. So it follows any on-turn restrictions.

ohhh, you're right. i thought it was worded the other way. fair enough.

[JackPhoenix]

Readying a spelll counts as casting the spell as normal. So it follows any on-turn restrictions.

Not to mention Ready action requies perceivable trigger for the reaction. Ending your turn is not perceivable trigger.

[kazaryu]

Not to mention Ready action requies perceivable trigger for the reaction. Ending your turn is not perceivable trigger. 'that npc' (indicating next in initiative' does anything'

[ProsecutorGodot]

Not to mention Ready action requies perceivable trigger for the reaction. Ending your turn is not perceivable trigger.

"Until I See anyone else move*" is a perceivable trigger though and does functionally the same thing, so it's an argument of semantics.
*Generalized, not literally moving using their speed.
Edit: Thinking more on it, your DM could rule that minute movement outside of their actual action don't trigger it so they would act before your readied spell, so it might not always be functionally identical.

For example, an enemy goes directly after you and without pause their first action is to attack you. The attack should resolve before your readied spell.

[kazaryu]

"Until I See anyone else move*" is a perceivable trigger though and does functionally the same thing, so it's an argument of semantics.
*Generalized, not literally moving using their speed.
Edit: Thinking more on it, your DM could rule that minute movement outside of their actual action don't trigger it so they would act before your readied spell, so it might not always be functionally identical.

For example, an enemy goes directly after you and without pause their first action is to attack you. The attack should resolve before your readied spell.

yup, under such conditions i think the only functional difference would be if the next person in initiative did something like cast a subtle spell. or did something that doesn't require movement. (like i think some monsters can cast certain spells while ignoring components)

[JackPhoenix]

yup, under such conditions i think the only functional difference would be if the next person in initiative did something like cast a subtle spell. or did something that doesn't require movement. (like i think some monsters can cast certain spells while ignoring components)

Reaction comes after the trigger, so if the general movement, dodging, whatever (which would even happen on your turn) everyone does in combat doesn't count for trigger, you can be attacked, hit and lose concentration on the readied spell before it has a chance to go off.

[kazaryu]

Reaction comes after the trigger, so if the general movement, dodging, whatever (which would even happen on your turn) everyone does in combat doesn't count for trigger, you can be attacked, hit and lose concentration on the readied spell before it has a chance to go off.

sure...after that enemy twitches, i cast my spell. my trigger isn't him taking any Action. its him moving at all. or it can be. obviously this is mega cheese, and its not something i'd personally allow at my table under most conditions. but it is RaW.

[JackPhoenix]

sure...after that enemy twitches, i cast my spell. my trigger isn't him taking any Action. its him moving at all. or it can be. obviously this is mega cheese, and its not something i'd personally allow at my table under most conditions. but it is RaW.

Unfortunately, he twitched while it was still your turn, so what was the point of reading the action in the first place?

[Tanarii]

Unfortunately, he twitched while it was still your turn, so what was the point of reading the action in the first place?
Yeah Ready Action cheese is incredibly easy for a DM to shut down. Besides, yknow, telling the player "don't do that".

I see the same cheese suggested with Rogues and Haste, as if it's always going to work.

[Lunali]

Yeah Ready Action cheese is incredibly easy for a DM to shut down. Besides, yknow, telling the player "don't do that".

I see the same cheese suggested with Rogues and Haste, as if it's always going to work.

Rogue with haste is easy to justify the ready action. I ready an attack for when he leaves himself open for a sneak attack.

[greenstone]

Yeah Ready Action cheese is incredibly easy for a DM to shut down.
Yep.

The way I explain it is:

This is a turn-based game. There isn't really simultaneous activity going on. Sure, I guess there is in the world, but not in the game rules we are using at the table. So, all the things you do, including Ready Action, have to be within the rules, thus turn-based. Having a trigger of "any time I see anyone move" isn't turn-based, and so doesn't fit in with the game rules.

[marlinspike]

so my idea for three spells in a round would be as a minimum, fighter 2 and wiz 11

1. set a contingency spell with a trigger being a spoken word or phrase

2. use action to cast a spell

3. use action surge to cast a spell from a spell scroll

[J.C.]

If you are allowed to start the turn Shapechanged into a Choker, you get effectively an extra Action Surge.

This enables 3 action spells, a contingency spell, and a reaction spell, so 5 levelled spells total.

You can use this trick to death trap a BBEG (e.g. Pyrotechnics, Forcecage, Sickening Radiance/ Wall of Light) or setup a 38 attacks in a turn Super Combo.