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Adumbration
2007-11-07, 10:09 AM
Now, inspired by the 'Wizard kill monk'- thread, answer this:

The wizard has committed something uspeakably evil (I will not speak of it) and the wizard community of the city goes after him. The 20th level wizard has a few moments of warning, and teleports away from the town seconds before.

The wizards give up, the bastard is out of their jurisdiction. They plunder his tower and break it into bricks. But it isn't over yet! The brotherhood that lives outside the city is pissed with him too! He burned their only outhouse! So they send their 20th level monk after him.

The wizard has never met this monk. He knows that there is likely to be someone after him, but does not know his/her class.

The monk will give up in two weeks. He has the equipment based on his wealth, that is dependent on his level. He also has once per day access to a wizard that will help him by scrying for money.

The wizard is worse off. He has only the clothes he was wearing, 2 material components, and some few hundred platinum coins. He used his last teleport spell for the day, and is in wilderness few kilometers away from the city.

Who wins?

EDIT:
All right. Let's up the odds a little, to turn this a bit more interesting.

The wizard has to stay within certain radius (say, fifty miles) from the city for two weeks, to receive and deliver the last informations from his spies. (Let's say his crime was spying). He recovers his hidden stash of five additional material components, plus three spellbooks and several trail rations and some clothes, including 1 ring he stashed for the rainy day.

He still has no idea who is after him.

Snadgeros
2007-11-07, 10:17 AM
Given all of the stuff the monk has access to, I give it to the monk easily. The wizard only has two components, severely limiting his selection of spells, and it's highly unlikely he'd prepare TWO forcecages necessary to stop the monk. Other spells such as fireballs and anything with a save has a good chance of not working on the monk's evasion, saves, and SR30. Also, with some ranks in hide and move silently, the monk can get the jump on the wizard (who he scryed earlier to figure out where he is) and grapple him. Once the wizard's pinned, he's screwed as the monk will win most, if not all of the grapple checks and just continue inflicting unarmed damage.

Should the wizard see the monk first though, odds are he'd try a forcecage, only to be thwarted by abundant step. As I said earlier, many of his other spells have a good chance of failure. The only hope for the wizard here is if he knows that it's a monk after him, otherwise odds are unlikely that he'll have proper monk-stopping spells prepared. He needs spells with no saves, no evasion, and can get past SR30, all with only two material components.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-07, 10:25 AM
should the wizard have a back-up spellbook stashed in a hidden location, with a back-up component pouch, or the feats spell mastery and eshew materials, or the spells planeshift and/or greater teleport, i'd bet on the wizard. Just because hideing and running is easier than finding and catching.

Dausuul
2007-11-07, 10:53 AM
If the wizard can obtain a spellbook with teleport and mind blank, he wins. Otherwise... it depends on what spells he had prepped when he had to run for it.

Kurald Galain
2007-11-07, 10:55 AM
Well, that depends on how severely you're crippling the wizard.

Obviously, a wizard who can't cast spells is going to get caught. You say he doesn't have any teleport spells memorized any more - but does he have anything else memorized? Does he have Spell Mastery? Or any of those Archmage's SLAs? Or spells tattooed on his body? What about Eschew Materials (given that nobody I've ever heard of actually keeps track of materials, and just writes "component pouch" on their sheet).

Several of these measures are quite common to wizards - and note that the wizard will have an intelligence in the high twenties, which means he would likely have a backup plan of some sort. Why on earth would he teleport with only his clothes, otherwise? Perhaps those clothes are a Robe of the Archmagi, or incorporate a Bag of Holding, or whatnot.

Given that there are numerous spells that don't have material components, and/or have components that are easily available in the wild, my bet is on the wizard. But it's really a stupid question because no sensible person would ever behave like this, and wizards have enough int to be considered sensible.

Adumbration
2007-11-07, 11:03 AM
All right. Let's up the odds a little, to turn this a bit more interesting.

The wizard has to stay within certain radius (say, fifty miles) from the city for two weeks, to receive and deliver the last informations from his spies. (Let's say his crime was spying). He recovers his hidden stash of five additional material components, plus three spellbooks and several trail rations and some clothes, including 1 ring he stashed for the rainy day.

He still has no idea who is after him.

horseboy
2007-11-07, 11:03 AM
Hmm, well, it all comes down to can the mage get to the next town faster than the monk. Wanted to turn it around a bit? If the mage can get to the next town, he drops a couple of the plat, gets a new spell book and a material component pouch, you're really only managed to lower his expensive components after that.
Not to mention "the clothes on his back" would be a robe of something or another, boots of this-that-or-the-other and possibly a cloak of something that does cut back on slots used.
Yeah, I'd still give it to the mage. Do a little damage to the monk and drop him with Power Word Kill.

[edit: Woops, didn't see your last post, Defiantly giving it to the wizard with that one.]

Adumbration
2007-11-07, 11:05 AM
By the way, why am I the only one who's thinking of Quivering Palm or whatever it's name was? Is there a reason he wouldn't use it?

Snadgeros
2007-11-07, 11:11 AM
Quivering palm's not a bad idea, but the fundamental problem with it is if you miss, you're screwed, and they can still make a save if it does hit. Stunning fist would actually be more practical, and would give the monk time to inflict more damage on the wizard each round he's stunned. Also, I don't imagine it would be difficult to take away his components and spellbooks and stuff while he's stunned (being that he can't do anything). Just stun him, grab his stuff, and burn it/throw it away/toss it off a clif/etc.

horseboy
2007-11-07, 11:11 AM
Probably because he can't reach him?

horseboy
2007-11-07, 11:14 AM
Also, I don't imagine it would be difficult to take away his components and spellbooks and stuff while he's stunned (being that he can't do anything). Just stun him, grab his stuff, and burn it/throw it away/toss it off a clif/etc.I see that brought up a lot but how does that help you now? So you wasted a couple of actions taking his back pack away and throwing it hella far. All that means is after the wizard is done killing you you've posthumously pissed him off while he goes looking for his stuff.

Snadgeros
2007-11-07, 11:16 AM
Probably because he can't reach him?

Why couldn't he? He can scry him and use his hide and move silently skill, then charge in from up to 180 feet away, 360 if he runs, and 450 if he has the run feat. Let's not forget the ever-useful abundant step or ability to go ethereal.:smalltongue:


I see that brought up a lot but how does that help you now? So you wasted a couple of actions taking his back pack away and throwing it hella far. All that means is after the wizard is done killing you you've posthumously pissed him off while he goes looking for his stuff.

How's he going to kill me if I just took away all of his components?

NEO|Phyte
2007-11-07, 11:25 AM
How's he going to kill me if I just took away all of his components?

Any number of spells that don't NEED components?

horseboy
2007-11-07, 11:29 AM
Why couldn't he? He can scry him and use his hide and move silently skill, then charge in from up to 180 feet away, 360 if he runs, and 450 if he has the run feat. Let's not forget the ever-useful abundant step or ability to go ethereal.:smalltongue: Cause he's flying; it's not really him, but an illusion; or not even in the same plane any more.

Emperor Demonking
2007-11-07, 11:31 AM
The monk sneaks up on the wizard, uses his quivering strike attack.
Wis equals at least 17+3+2 so a six wis modifier, so the wizard must make a 26, at least, fort save.
If not the monk will probably be able to use stunning blow, if he wins initiative.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-07, 11:37 AM
The monk sneaks up on the wizard, uses his quivering strike attack.
Wis equals at least 17+3+2 so a six wis modifier, so the wizard must make a 26, at least, fort save.
If not the monk will probably be able to use stunning blow, if he wins initiative.

and the monk sneaks into a MMM how? and given that they do what sort of wiz20 doesn't have a contingency up? and a clone stashed somewhere?

If the wiz gets a spellbook then he wins.

Kaelik
2007-11-07, 11:37 AM
Why couldn't he? He can scry him and use his hide and move silently skill, then charge in from up to 180 feet away, 360 if he runs, and 450 if he has the run feat. Let's not forget the ever-useful abundant step or ability to go ethereal.:smalltongue:

Because he is flying. Because he can Immediate action teleport? Because he has immunity to stunning fist and quivering palm as a matter of course?


How's he going to kill me if I just took away all of his components?

Spells without material components. Archmage SLAs. Eschew Materials. Not that it matters because you can never hit him.


The real reason the Wizard instawins this challenge. MMM. One cast, wait X long. Gets information from spys. Leaves to go do something else.

And that's ignoring Mindblank=Scry can go cry.

Kurald Galain
2007-11-07, 11:48 AM
plus three spellbooks

If the wizard has his spellbooks, then this debate boils down to the same thing we debate every week. The strongest core class beats the weakest core class, hands down.

elliott20
2007-11-07, 11:54 AM
Before the wizard found his stash? The monk maybe, depending upon what kind of other resources the wizard might have at his disposal. After the wizard found his stash? The wizard EASILY.

Telonius
2007-11-07, 12:06 PM
Because he is flying. Because he can Immediate action teleport? Because he has immunity to stunning fist and quivering palm as a matter of course?



Spells without material components. Archmage SLAs. Eschew Materials. Not that it matters because you can never hit him.


The real reason the Wizard instawins this challenge. MMM. One cast, wait X long. Gets information from spys. Leaves to go do something else.

And that's ignoring Mindblank=Scry can go cry.

I'd add another spell that adds insult to injury: Private Sanctum. It does have three material components, so that might be an issue. Not only does it prevent the wizard himself from being scried on, it prevents the whole Mansion from being scried on. So, no hints that he's in an extradimensional space.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-07, 12:50 PM
I'd add another spell that adds insult to injury: Private Sanctum. It does have three material components, so that might be an issue. Not only does it prevent the wizard himself from being scried on, it prevents the whole Mansion from being scried on. So, no hints that he's in an extradimensional space.

At which point every other class beyound monk, including even wizards, goes and cries.

elliott20
2007-11-07, 12:55 PM
yeah, pretty much the moment you allow the wizard to have some kind of resources to cast even ONE spell of the whole MMM nature, it's over.

Snadgeros
2007-11-07, 01:08 PM
Yeah you just defeated the entire challenge by giving him that stash. No class, not just monk, but not even another wizard, would be able to catch him then. Wizards have low HP, so they have plenty "get the hell out of dodge" spells. That's just not even fair. We need a new stash with a lot less stuff. Make the wizard stay on this plane. He can make himself unscryable, but he can't go hide in another plane or dimension.

Adumbration
2007-11-07, 01:12 PM
Well, first of all, good luck contacting your spies from the UNDETECTABLE INVISIBLE MANSION OF MAGIC!

Jeah, nice try, fellas.

Telonius
2007-11-07, 01:19 PM
The Wizard can still cast Sending from the mansion, and direct his spies to the entrance.

EDIT: Though if the Monk is really smart, he could start tracking the spies, but it's not certain at all if either the monk or the wizards will think of that.

horseboy
2007-11-07, 02:03 PM
Yeah you just defeated the entire challenge by giving him that stash. No class, not just monk, but not even another wizard, would be able to catch him then. Wizards have low HP, so they have plenty "get the hell out of dodge" spells. That's just not even fair. We need a new stash with a lot less stuff. Make the wizard stay on this plane. He can make himself unscryable, but he can't go hide in another plane or dimension.
You'd have to strip him naked with less than 5 gold on him, otherwise if he's got 20 gold he's back in business.

mostlyharmful
2007-11-07, 02:22 PM
Yeah you just defeated the entire challenge by giving him that stash. No class, not just monk, but not even another wizard, would be able to catch him then. Wizards have low HP, so they have plenty "get the hell out of dodge" spells. That's just not even fair. We need a new stash with a lot less stuff. Make the wizard stay on this plane. He can make himself unscryable, but he can't go hide in another plane or dimension.

Yup. the challenge is indeed completely writen off by giving the wizard his basic nesecities, somewhere in the region of 5 to 10 % of his WBL.

Doresain
2007-11-07, 02:33 PM
i say make him a necromancer rather than your typical wizard...necromancers dont need to hide from everybody, they just sit in the middle of their undead legions and wait in their luxurious stitched-flesh couch

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-07, 02:42 PM
Y'know, one prismatic sphere and a few prismatic sprays finish this challenge easily. Let's not talk about solid fogs, webs, cloudkills, etc. Most of those ask for no material comp, so the monk is a big disadvantage.

iceman
2007-11-07, 03:32 PM
Purchase a pair of anti-magic shackles for the wizard and if you can squeeze it, a pair of anti-magic bracelets for yourself (Neither function if not worn, worth roughly 132,000gp a pop). Have friendly wizard scry every day until he locates bad wizard (MMM only lasts for two hours per caster level, thats 40 hours, less than two days out of the two weeks he has to avoid being caught) Go out and locate wizard using stealthy measures. Run up and beat the snot out of the wizard (your anti magic bracelets pretty much neuter him from using any offensive spells, and if within 5 feet all of his spells). Place anti-magic shackles on the wizard and drag his sorry butt back to town (avoiding those pesky random encounters on the way of course). Have Wizards guild reward you by creating your very own Permancied MMM. Using your left over gold, fill with concubines, tasty food, and good booze. Live drunkily ever after. THE END.:smallbiggrin:

blacksabre
2007-11-07, 04:10 PM
if I were the wizard on the run, I'd go underground for a few months until things settle down

Without more specs on the feats the wiz has hard to say exactly..

I don't see how a 20th level wizard wouldn't have a spell book on him 24/7

Anyway..mage's magnificient mansion as was mentioned..food and shelter is taken care of.

Scrying , if succeeded with a +5 other plane save bonus, only tells you he's in a mansion, but you'll never know where that mansion is


Monk gives up in 2 weeks

Kaelik
2007-11-07, 04:11 PM
(MMM only lasts for two hours per caster level, thats 40 hours, less than two days out of the two weeks he has to avoid being caught)

Right, because Wizards don't have ways to recast spells after 38 hours of sitting around completely unmolested.:smallwink:

GoC
2007-11-07, 04:15 PM
Let's see...
First he planeshifts to his private demiplane to pick up a few hundred of his emergency scrolls, his backup spellbook and his extra staffs then planeshifts back.
Then...
He's won!:smallbiggrin:

If he doesn't have a private demiplane (we've got a really absentminded wizard here) then he's either got a Wish spell or that ignore material components feat.
So he wishes for a spellbook with a big bag of material components on the front.

Both of my 18+ level wizards have had a private demiplane.

Kurald Galain
2007-11-07, 04:19 PM
So he wishes for a spellbook with a big bag of material components on the front.


Or he could wish for all the monk's magical items to be teleported into this bag here :smallbiggrin:

AKA_Bait
2007-11-07, 04:19 PM
Both of my 18+ level wizards have had a private demiplane.

Tell me more about how to aquire one if these private demiplanes. :smallconfused:

Karsh
2007-11-07, 04:22 PM
(MMM only lasts for two hours per caster level, thats 40 hours, less than two days out of the two weeks he has to avoid being caught):

What's to stop the Wizard from simply, oh, I dunno, preparing another one while in his Magnificent Mansion and casting it when the other one runs out? Or he could Extend it and only cast it once every 3 1/2 days. Foci aren't consumed when you cast a spell, so it's not like the Wizard will run out.


Tell me more about how to aquire one if these private demiplanes. :smallconfused:

Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm)

boomwolf
2007-11-07, 04:40 PM
I'll give it to the monk actually.
Nearly all spells commonly used have save throws, and a monk has good saves. not to talk about evasion.

If the monk finds the wizard, and the wizard does not know it is a monk that is after him, wizard is going down. even if he HAS his spellbook, he is unlikely to have good spells to fight off a monk. and the monk from the other hand had great things to fight off casters anytime.




Who uses genesis anyway? this is an NPC spell. no PC should use it, ever.

Karsh
2007-11-07, 04:45 PM
Wizard doesn't have to fight; he can just hide for the two weeks.

And he's going to have a contingency up that will prevent the monk from getting the jump on him. My personal favorite is "Cast celerity if I am attacked while surprised."

Or he can just fly and shoot magic missiles at the monk for target practice if he feels like it.

Or use Phantom Steed, whose Double Move is farther than a Monk's Run with the Run feat. And can fly.

Kurald Galain
2007-11-07, 05:15 PM
Nearly all spells commonly used have save throws
No they don't. There's entire lines of spells that don't do saves.

A good wizard is always prepared, because he has a 25+ intelligence.



and the monk from the other hand had great things to fight off casters anytime.
Yeah, like running away very fast, and hiding skill. That'll work fer sure!

Vva70
2007-11-07, 05:20 PM
I'll give it to the monk actually.
Nearly all spells commonly used have save throws, and a monk has good saves. not to talk about evasion.

If the monk finds the wizard, and the wizard does not know it is a monk that is after him, wizard is going down. even if he HAS his spellbook, he is unlikely to have good spells to fight off a monk. and the monk from the other hand had great things to fight off casters anytime.




Who uses genesis anyway? this is an NPC spell. no PC should use it, ever.

Pray tell, how is the monk going to find the wizard anyway? The wizard is sitting inside his Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion, mind blanked to prevent scrying. Even if he leaves the mansion, he's still scry-proof and probably flying around on a phantom steed.

And what's wrong with a PC using genesis (assuming the DM is okay with it, and there's no reason for that not to be the case)? There are all manner of cool things you can do with your own private demiplane.

illathid
2007-11-07, 05:34 PM
And what's wrong with a PC using genesis (assuming the DM is okay with it, and there's no reason for that not to be the case)? There are all manner of cool things you can do with your own private demiplane.

Like having a harem of dominated Succubi :smallwink:.

Or working on eugenics program that would combine all of the major planar bloodlines (Celestial, Fiendish, Anarchic, Axiomatic, along with all 6 of the inner planes) into one penultimate species.

Or creating a group of atomic monsters that can spread word of your love for x through ought the multiverse.

Man, I wish I had my own demiplane :smallfrown:

LordLocke
2007-11-07, 06:18 PM
I dunno how the Monk could possibly do this without a lot of outside help unless you basically deny the wizard his very class features- even then, a Wizard with a vaguely generalist spell list could probably stall for a while. I know that my wizards usually have:

Rope Trick
Phantom Steed
Overland Flight
MMM

Which combined is basically good for 8 + 20 + 20 + 40 hours of near-untouchability. After the first week things start to get a little trickier, but frankly what lv 20 wizard is going to be unable to go for two WEEKS without touching one of his spellbooks? We're talking about stuff like Leomund's Secret Chest, Genesis, Drawmij's Instant Summons- paranoid wizards piling contingency plans upon contingency plans, since basically their only weakness IS not getting a chance to refresh their spells.

So yeah, the wizard can very realistically lose this challenge. If he's the dumbest wizard ever. Otherwise, he's going to get ONE of his spell books back within the first fifteen minutes, and then it's a whole new ball game as he basically shuffles about and hides in other dimensions, way high in the sky, or what not for the two weeks needed.

(And of course, there's the fact that if the monk FINDS the wizard... well, that's good. Now the Monk's facing off against a wizard. That's... not so good. Not exactly a winning situation for the Monk unless the Wizard's all but completely out of level 5+ spells and is just kinda waiting for death.)

Dode
2007-11-07, 06:52 PM
Plane Shift onto a coterminous plane (Ethereal, Shadow). Wizard wins.

Adumbration
2007-11-08, 12:41 AM
It's funny how almost everyone ignores any and all equipment used by the monk It's a fricking 20th level character, for goodness sake! With wealth based on level! How hard can it be to get something to create anti-magic field, get object that allows you to fly, or a phantom steed of your own!

Almost everyone keeps inventing these cheesy ways for the wizard to survive. No one thinks up a way for the monk to win...

tyckspoon
2007-11-08, 12:55 AM
It's funny how almost everyone ignores any and all equipment used by the monk It's a fricking 20th level character, for goodness sake! With wealth based on level! How hard can it be to get something to create anti-magic field, get object that allows you to fly, or a phantom steed of your own!

Almost everyone keeps inventing these cheesy ways for the wizard to survive. No one thinks up a way for the monk to win...

Because an anti-magic field negates all the other items you might be using and does not meaningfully prevent the wizard from attacking you. Because the monk's primary challenge is to find the wizard; if he can't do that, then whatever he might want to use to try and actually defeat the wizard doesn't matter. If you've got a suggestion for an item that will help the monk actually locate the (mind-blanked, other-plane-dwelling) wizard, feel free to mention it.

Note: And no, having another full spellcaster cast divinations for you doesn't count. The original terms of the contest already provide for a Scrying; getting a Discern Location or a Commune or Contact Other Plane or whatever you want to try is using another class's class features for the contest and makes the actual class tasked with carrying out the contest fairly irrelevant.

the_tick_rules
2007-11-08, 12:59 AM
provided the wizard isn't able to magically discern the monk is the one after him the monk could do this easily. if the monk gets the drop on the wizard before he can buff himself and start his spell slinging the monk could pound, stun, and grapple him silly.

Aquillion
2007-11-08, 03:33 AM
Writing circumstances that deny the wizard basic class features like, say, a material component pouch is unreasonable. If the wizard doesn't have a material component pouch, that's fine, but it's only fair to say that the monk, in turn, has no capability to make unarmed attacks. If the wizard gets two components, the monk can make two unarmed attacks (an iterative attack uses up one for every hit.) Additionally, since you negated the Wizard's most potent abilities when you took out teleport and kept him near the city, it's only fair to say that the Monk must give up Stunning Fist and grappling.

Likewise if the wizard is in a situation that limits access to magical items or services, the Monk must labor under the same restriction. Anything else, and we would be having a contest of how clever your restrictions were, not of class vs. class.

Under these more balanced conditions, I think that it's fair to say that the Wizard wins. (If you have other things that you think the Monk could trade away instead to equal the abilities you stripped from the Wizard, that's fine; but they have to be of equal value. And absolutely no magical items, hiring services, or otherwise accessing extra resources for the monk unless the Wizard gets equal access; a 'contest' where only one person is allowed their WBL items is flatly absurd. That isn't "wizard vs monk", that's "wizard vs. every item ever published by WotC".)

...I should add, of course, that the fact that many people still proposed reasonable ways for the wizard to win while laboring under the absurd restrictions that were put on him says everything that needs to be said.

Finally, one most important note: Any solution proposed for the Monk must also have an explaination for why it couldn't be done as well, or better, by either rogue 20 or barbarian 20. Everything I've seen here so far falls into that trap. (Run up and grapple, and hope the wizard doesn't have Free Action or a contingent or silenced/stilled dimdoor? Yeah. How about pounce and full attack? I'm not an expert on the subject, but I think that wizards have more options when they're grappled than they do when they're dead.)

Kurald Galain
2007-11-08, 05:56 AM
if the monk gets the drop on the wizard before he can buff himself and start his spell slinging

...then the wizard has a Contingency set up to Dimension Door him the maximum distance straight up when surprised, and can back this up with immediate abilities like Dimension Step or the Conjurer's alternative feature, and is immune to grappling because of the ring he's wearing.

Funkyodor
2007-11-08, 06:16 AM
From reading Genesis, there is nothing I read that makes it 'Private Demiplane'. It is a Limited Access Demiplane. Meaning that you can only access it from the Ethereal plane. So anyone with access to the Ethereal plane can come in, unless you protect it like anyother sanctum.

Artifact that allows scrying anything or anyone anywhere ignoring all magical protection would be a good start (like the Palantir from Lord of the Rings). You don't even have to give it to the monk. Let the mage working with the monk have it and just charge to use it. Makes a good story on how they found out the Wizard was corrupt and evil in the first place, since figuring out where or what a high level Wizard is doing in the first place is apparently 'Impossible'. Set up a trap. Figure out how long the MMM is going to last, put a Anti-Magic Field trap right outside with a thunder stone. Wizard steps in, thunderstone goes off, DC 15 Fort save or deaf (20% verbal spell failure) and -4 init, might as well add a tanglefoot bag to the mix as well to keep him in the AMF maybe. (You know, make it 5 thunderstones and tangfoot bags. You can never have enough save or suck effects, and all he needs to do is fail a couple.) Contingencies don't go off because of the AMF, Monk charges out of hiding during surprise action and tries to land Quivering Palm or Stunning fist, etc... Round 1 of normal combat. Contest begins.

Just my 2 bits.

EDIT: Added more to the trap.

GoC
2007-11-08, 08:37 AM
From reading Genesis, there is nothing I read that makes it 'Private Demiplane'. It is a Limited Access Demiplane. Meaning that you can only access it from the Ethereal plane. So anyone with access to the Ethereal plane can come in, unless you protect it like anyother sanctum.

No.
It must be cast from the ethereal plane but you can Planeshift into it from anywhere.
Limited access means the creator of the plane says who can get in.

Tyger
2007-11-08, 09:38 AM
These threads, while certainly interesting, are completely pointless without laying out all the particulars at the beginning.


1) What spells did the wizard have memorized?
2) What precautions had the wizard taken to prevent the loss of his spell books and components?
3) What other precautions did the wizard have in place?
4) What magical items do both the wizard and monk have in their possession?
5) What spells are in the wizard's spellbook (if they can get it back)?
6) What are the stats, feats, actual class(es) and class abilities of the two characters? I Wizard 20 and a Wizard 10 / Mage of the Arcane Order 10 have two very different sets of capabilities Hell the second one is only minorly incapacitated by the temporary loss of his spellbooks. Just as a Monk 20 and a Monk 10 / Pys Warrior 10 are two very different opponents. Feats are important as well. Does the wizard have Eschew Materials?
7) What resources are available to the players? What splatbooks, is it Core only?
When those are answered (for a start) the actual question can be reasonably addressed.

My gut says that the answer is still going to be the same though.... the wizard only has to stay hidden for two weeks. With that in mind, he can easily (once, not if, he gets his spellbook back) spend all of his very considerable resources on just staying hidden. Whereas the monk, in addition to all the other arguments regarding his overall weakness, not only has to spend resources in tracking down the wizard, but must then have resources in holding in order to defeat or capture the wizard. No contest there.

FUNKYODOR: Once you start allowing one side powers that even the gods lack... well, why bother playing at that point? C'mon, an artifact more powerful than the gods??? Not to mention, a Wizard 20 who can't beat 5 DC 15 saves is either a) a complete idiot or b) a complete idiot. +6 from Superior Resistance, + 6 from CON, +6 base... only failing on a 1. And of course, you needed this Supreme Artifact in order to place them there, all of which occurs without the Wizard knowing about it of course....

Karsh
2007-11-08, 10:36 AM
Figure out how long the MMM is going to last, put a Anti-Magic Field trap right outside with a thunder stone. Wizard steps in, thunderstone goes off, DC 15 Fort save or deaf (20% verbal spell failure) and -4 init, might as well add a tanglefoot bag to the mix as well to keep him in the AMF maybe. Contingencies don't go off because of the AMF, Monk charges out of hiding during surprise action and tries to land Quivering Palm or Stunning fist, etc... Round 1 of normal combat. Contest begins.

So now the Monk has access to a Major Artifact? In that case, the Wizard gets a Staff of the Magi and just absorbs the AMF.

More realistically, however, there are a few problems with your plan.

In an AMF, a Monk loses...

Ki Strike (Su)
Wholeness of Body (Su)
Diamond Body (Su)
Abundant Step (Su)
Quivering Palm (Su)
and Empty Body (Su)

And if the Wizard can become immune to critical hits, Stunning Fist doesn't work either.

And some spells can still be cast in an AMF. Like Prismatic Sphere. Good luck getting close to the Wizard.

Chronos
2007-11-08, 07:11 PM
And some spells can still be cast in an AMF. Like Prismatic Sphere. Good luck getting close to the Wizard.Not quite. Prismatic Sphere still functions in an AMF, if it's already there, but you still can't cast it while you're in one.

And even though I usually try to take the nonmagical side in these debates, the monk still has no chance. The wizard just has too many ways to avoid encountering the monk in the first place (flight, invisibility, planar travel of various sorts, maybe any of a variety of spells to hide underground...).

Meanwhile, allowing the monk to have a major artifact is basically conceding defeat for the monk. There's probably an artifact somewhere that could allow an awakened chipmunk commoner to defeat a wizard.

Arbitrarity
2007-11-08, 07:15 PM
Not quite. Prismatic Sphere still functions in an AMF, if it's already there, but you still can't cast it while you're in one.

And even though I usually try to take the nonmagical side in these debates, the monk still has no chance. The wizard just has too many ways to avoid encountering the monk in the first place (flight, invisibility, planar travel of various sorts, maybe any of a variety of spells to hide underground...).

Meanwhile, allowing the monk to have a major artifact is basically conceding defeat for the monk. There's probably an artifact somewhere that could allow an awakened chipmunk commoner to defeat a wizard.

I.e.

"I Win:
This major artifact looks like a piece of molding clay. It grants its wielder the ability to Manipulate Form as a Sarrukh, at will, with no restrictions on type."

:smallbiggrin: