Is the Multiverse Medieval?/Why is the city of Union so primitive?

[Destro2119]

So I have recently been reading up on the Epic Level Handbook and I recently realized that, for a massive planar metropolis, Union seems surprisingly primitive and medieval. Wood, torches, stone and leather are still used instead of composite alloys, lightbulbs and nylon even though thousands of people come through the place and at least some must be technologically advanced enough for that.

Heck, practically every other person in Union is smart enough as to be capable of creating all the tech and advancements of Shadowrun or Starfinder singlehandedly. Or at least you could find someone like that there. For example, one of the guys working for the Order of the Book could have just figured out databases and computers to upload the spells onto, even if it took epic magic which is basically a nonissue anyways.

Yet, we don't see even a hint of this on Union. Even across the universe AND the multiverse it seems everyone has swords, leather, and crossbows as their most advanced weapon. What if the US army comes through a gate and tries to conquer Union? Will its denizens be completely unable to resist?

Any information you give is welcomed.

[AlanBruce]

Your observation goes beyond the specific example.

For some reason, everyone equayes fantasy with the medieval era: torches light the streets. Horses pull a rickety old wagon...

Toilets are unheard of.

And yet, you have people walking around with items- tech, if you will- that reflect a clear a superior knowledge regarding crafting and ingenuity. This said knowledge need not be the one belonging to the wearer- PCs tend to be, for the most part, feeble minded and remorseless killers with expensive tools.

The world you create need not be one resembling an ignorant time in history. You can still have swords being swung around...

and a perfectly working sewer system. And even cell phones.

Case in point: Final Fantasy VII

[StSword]

A world with dnd style magic should not be medieval, quite true.

But asking why they don't have modern technology is a funny question.

They already have a resource superior to our modern technology, it's called magic.

With it they can create automatons that follow any order, heal any injury or disease including death itself, and unleash wrath that makes the 2d8 of an automatic rifle look like a love tap.

Not to mention change someone's species, create artificial intelligences, control the weather, or create things ex nihilo.

Necessity is the mother of invention.

[icefractal]

Union is really underwhelming, even leaving technology aside. This is an Epic-level place built by an organization with staggering levels of resources. It shouldn't just be mostly an ordinary town!

Like, a while ago a played a 20th level character (in Pathfinder, so no Epic levels and somewhat less craziness available than 3.5). Just as a 20th level character with normal resources, I was able to construct a city-size demiplane network with:
* Control of all environmental aspects, including gravity and positive/negative polarity and such.
* Telepathic communication and control comparable to a modern computer network.
* Guards that were little barely-visible dots but packed enough punch to easily handle a Balor, in basically unlimited quantities.
* Easy access from anywhere to anywhere, and to most spells and gear on demand.
* Windows showing events in other planes, memory bars, illusory landscapes, etc.

While probably more high-op than WotC would expect a single character to be, it's nothing that couldn't be achieved at a higher resource cost by very normal methods. A consortium of non-Epic magic items merchants with a tenth of the resources Union is said to involve should have something at least as good as the above, and probably better.


Now you could say that maybe it's just an aesthetic. Union looks like a normal prime-material town because it was intentionally designed to look like one. Well besides the fact that nothing about the Mercane indicates such a preference, looking normal doesn't really impede any of the above - Union still could (and should) be functionally advanced even if it resembled a simple pastoral village.

[Mechalich]

While probably more high-op than WotC would expect a single character to be, it's nothing that couldn't be achieved at a higher resource cost by very normal methods. A consortium of non-Epic magic items merchants with a tenth of the resources Union is said to involve should have something at least as good as the above, and probably better.

The ELH was written very early in 3e's publication cycle, to the point that it is so low-optimization as to be effectively anti-optimization both in expectations and in the simple fact that many of the more advanced optimization tricks literally did not exist yet because the spells/feats/special abilities/etc had not yet been written.

That being said, Union is underwhelming from the perspective of even what epic-level 2e characters (who are orders of magnitude less powerful than 3e characters in terms of what high-level casters can do) could reasonably be expected to accomplish and where in fact actually presented as having done in terms of books written about Netheril and certain other high-magic localities in D&D's publication record.

Honestly, I think Union was thrown together very quickly as a potential new 'planar hub' location because the powers that be weren't sure whether they wanted to keep using Sigil or not at that point. As it happened the answer with regards to Sigil was 'yes' and Union was basically never mentioned again.


For some reason, everyone equayes fantasy with the medieval era: torches light the streets. Horses pull a rickety old wagon...

Not really, it's just that the traditions of the English-speaking world have, mostly for historical reasons, trouble referring to non-medieval fantasy as fantasy. Star Wars, notably, is quite possibly the most popular fantasy franchise in the English-speaking world (and some parts beyond), but a surprising number of people refuse to acknowledge that it is a fantasy set in space and not a science fiction story.

Beyond that, D&D, specifically was very grounded in the Medieval Period - or more accurately the medieval period as understood by a bunch of adult nerds in the 1970s, which resulted in a portrayal that hasn't held up especially well when seen from the vantage of 2021 - when it was designed. D&D was intended to facilitate gameplay in a world that hews to the conventions of either High Fantasy or Sword & Sorcery, both of which were if not precisely medieval (several of the inspirational sources, such as Conan, have much more of Bronze Age vibe), at least viable using the designer's understanding of medieval period technologies. It didn't exactly hold to that, weird elements drawn from other genres got included very early on, but that was the intention.

It's also important that, during the time D&D fluff got refined and codified and the D&D worlds took on their mostly coherent fluff structures in the 1980s and 1990s when TSR churned out box sets describing them, characters were a lot less powerful. The ability of a 30th level wizard in 2e AD&D to upgrade the global tech level was not even close to what a 3e or 3.5e character could do. I mean, in order to make Netheril work, Ed Greenwood had to distinctly bend the rules, notably to allow for the creation of magical items in an industrialized fashion, which otherwise simply wasn't possible in 2e.


The world you create need not be one resembling an ignorant time in history. You can still have swords being swung around...

and a perfectly working sewer system. And even cell phones.

Case in point: Final Fantasy VII

Final Fantasy and other fantasy worlds that involve an industrialized magitech civilization where people still fight with pre-industrial weapons are usually cheating the world building in some way. Specifically they're usually building in a scenario where modern defenses work in such a way that only anachronistic pre-industrial weapons can defeat them, a tradition best exemplified by "The slow blade penetrates the shield." Dune was published in 1965, so it's an old and well-established cheat.

Unfortunately its hard to sustain such a cheat, because there's usually some work around - which hey, Dune also includes an example of, gotta love the classics - and in tabletop in particular magitech is extremely vulnerable to abuse by creatively minded people with knowledge of STEM principles, something that encompasses most gaming tables. This why the various publishers of D&D and D&D derived games like Pathfinder, have, over the years, tried to pretend it's impossible to turn a D&D world into a magitech utopia (or slowly cooling debris field), even though it absolutely is.

[Troacctid]

I feel I should point out that everything we humans in the real world needed to create many modern inventions had been around for a bazillion years before we got around to actually inventing those things.

[Destro2119]

I feel I should point out that everything we humans in the real world needed to create many modern inventions had been around for a bazillion years before we got around to actually inventing those things.

Yeah, but the people in Union can easily access the same (Plane of Earth for mineral wealth, etc etc) and if not, they can just PAO or True Creation it from thin air. Also, they are not cavemen starting from scratch they are a city that has hundreds of genius level residents and people from different planets/planes of existences passing through.

[Jack_Simth]

Yeah, but the people in Union can easily access the same (Plane of Earth for mineral wealth, etc etc) and if not, they can just PAO or True Creation it from thin air. Also, they are not cavemen starting from scratch they are a city that has hundreds of genius level residents and people from different planets/planes of existences passing through.

I suspect you misunderstand. Perhaps an example:

The Greeks had a working steam engine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolipile). But they didn't seem to use it for anything. No trains, no powered boats, no production plants, et cetera. Why? Well, why would they? They had slaves to do all the work, so there wasn't any real point in the thing for them.

Most the time when folks have something that works well enough, they don't go looking for better solutions (especially when the search is expensive and doesn't promise results). So a society that has slaves and most stuff covered by basic magic... isn't necessarily going to be looking to better everything for the have-nots. Especially when the folks that are evil are just as "up there" as the folks that are good.....

[Zombimode]

Hm, I don't know. I find it more then a bit silly to complain that a fantasy settings actually resembles a fantasy aesthetic.

If you don't like that, use a different setting.

There is nothing more to it.

[schreier]

Have you seen the movie Onward? It shows what might happen when magic gets overtaken by technology (in a simplified Disney way). It doesn't factor in the potential age defying methods, but if it is easier to use a lightbulb than learn the spell, people forget how to use magic because people are lazy.

If magic is easy enough to learn, they never figure out the tech (as several above have pointed out).

Everton integrated the two pretty well, resulting in generally less high level magic but a lot of magic/ elemental powered tech.

Also people in power prefer to stay in power- not many are selfless. Epic wizards don't encourage everyone else to reach their level of power.

[Bugbear]

Well, the Real World answer is that the makers of D&D want to keep it a vague Medieval Renaissance setting. The idea is simple enough: the appeal of D&D is the roughly right before 1400 or so setting. Roughly right before gunpowder. Once you even add gunpowder, it's not really "D&D" to most people.

The second problem is space. Union, for example, does not get lots of pages in the book. And it would take lots of pages to describe 'advanced' place, and even more pages to describe the 'advanced' rules.

And that leads right into the third big problem: most writers could not do it if they tried. They might be able to say "Union is just like New York City in 2021", but would be hard pressed to give many details. You might get things like "the city has a magic train that goes Weeeee', but not too much else. Magical world building is hard, and it's about ten times harder using an D&D rules set. Most writers are not up to the challenge. They simply don't have the rule mastery, rule knowledge, game knowledge and imagination to do it.

---------

In game universe....well there is no reason Union or any other place would be a "modern wonderland".

The big problem here is the looking back one. As someone in the 21st century looking back into a 13th century world it is beyond easy to say "well why don't they just use magic to create computers". But that 21st century person has the advantage of knowing what a computer is and what it can do. But for someone IN the 13th century it is near impossible for them to think of that.

For example, have you ever tried to explain computers, the internet or any technology to a typically older person who grew up in a world without it? Are you old enough to remember the world without modern tech? If your in the 21st century, can you think up of the next new tech?

To go from the 13th century tech to 21st century tech took hundreds of years. To say it was slow is an understatement. Slowly improvements were made, but new ideas only come along once in a while. And new ideas are SLOW to come out. And most ideas need the support of the rest of the world too as few people create things in a vacuum. Most, if not all, advancement uses and builds on other advancements. And education, reading and communication are right at the top of such spreads.

Remember back in the day when you wanted to learn something, you had two options: 1.Find a book that told you about the topic...good luck. Or 2. Find someone to teach and tell you about it. But now look at 2021. With just You Tube alone you can find a ton of ton of information on nearly everything, in a couple minutes, with just the push of a button.

The second big problem is the magic is a huge crutch. Magic stifles invention. The basic reason anything is created and invented is need. The light bulb was invented so humans can see in the dark....but with magic is very easy to make glowing light, an everburing touch, or just see in the dark. And not only is there very little need, but there is very little advancement to build off of in the first place. Unlike Earth, you don't have countless people before you creating things and inventing things....because they have no need to do so.

The third problem is the alien problem. A true 21st century D&D city would be alien to us. To an extreme. It would be confusing and make no sense and maybe most of all not be fun and cool. It's more then enough to look at a lot of cultures that are not your own and be amazed at how different they are then what you think is normal. And it's about a hundred more times strange to think of the way anything was in the past. If fact, you might note just about all modern media looks back at the past with rose colored glasses. Any fiction set in history 'looks cool' to the modern audience. And that is on top of adding over the top drama and making it safe for a modern view point.

And this is a huge problem for fantasy and sci fi. Lots of classic such fiction was very alien, describing a world nothing like our own. It's popular enough, but does not have the broad appeal of the "just like Earth, but a little different". Both Star Wars and Star Trek have spaceships and zap guns....and then everything else is exactly like it is on modern Earth.

To illustrate this, picture a typical farmer from 1750. They have nothing we consider basic today: no running clean water, no sewer, no electricity, no phone, and no internet. They have to do everything by hand....and by hand that does basically mean THEY have to do it by hand. A typical day is endless work from sunrise to sunset. So then have our farmer get a peak into the future of 2021. And they see someone simply sitting at home in front of a TV/computer screen from sunup to sunset. Water just "comes out of the wall", and so does heat. Lights and nearly all electrical machines are beyond is understanding. One 'box' keeps food cool or frozen and another box 'cooks' food with no fire. And radio, TV, computers and internet are all things way, way, way beyond the farmers understanding. And things like social media...not a chance.

Even the poor guy from say 1980 might be able to understand in a vague way radio, TV, computers and internet of 2021....but it's still light years beyond anything he can really imagine. And he'd be at a huge loss to understand social media.

This brings us back to the 21st century Union city: it would make no sense to a typical 21st century Earth person. Just take the 700 years of magic development: So it's a 25th dimensional outside of time dimensional transcendental relativity differentiated paradox machine settlement. Or simply put....not the sort of place a 'hardy adventuring group' could just walk into to go shopping or have a drink at the tavern.

The fourth and final one is that most people like the "real thing" better then super advanced magic/tech. Many people would rather eat real grown food, not 'food' made by magic or science. Many people like the light and warmth of a real fire. Many people like to cook, not get a meal with the punch of a button or wave of a hand. Many people would much rather read a book, then watch the movie....or have it downloaded into their brain.

[Destro2119]

The ELH was written very early in 3e's publication cycle, to the point that it is so low-optimization as to be effectively anti-optimization both in expectations and in the simple fact that many of the more advanced optimization tricks literally did not exist yet because the spells/feats/special abilities/etc had not yet been written.

That being said, Union is underwhelming from the perspective of even what epic-level 2e characters (who are orders of magnitude less powerful than 3e characters in terms of what high-level casters can do) could reasonably be expected to accomplish and where in fact actually presented as having done in terms of books written about Netheril and certain other high-magic localities in D&D's publication record.

Honestly, I think Union was thrown together very quickly as a potential new 'planar hub' location because the powers that be weren't sure whether they wanted to keep using Sigil or not at that point. As it happened the answer with regards to Sigil was 'yes' and Union was basically never mentioned again.



Not really, it's just that the traditions of the English-speaking world have, mostly for historical reasons, trouble referring to non-medieval fantasy as fantasy. Star Wars, notably, is quite possibly the most popular fantasy franchise in the English-speaking world (and some parts beyond), but a surprising number of people refuse to acknowledge that it is a fantasy set in space and not a science fiction story.

Beyond that, D&D, specifically was very grounded in the Medieval Period - or more accurately the medieval period as understood by a bunch of adult nerds in the 1970s, which resulted in a portrayal that hasn't held up especially well when seen from the vantage of 2021 - when it was designed. D&D was intended to facilitate gameplay in a world that hews to the conventions of either High Fantasy or Sword & Sorcery, both of which were if not precisely medieval (several of the inspirational sources, such as Conan, have much more of Bronze Age vibe), at least viable using the designer's understanding of medieval period technologies. It didn't exactly hold to that, weird elements drawn from other genres got included very early on, but that was the intention.

It's also important that, during the time D&D fluff got refined and codified and the D&D worlds took on their mostly coherent fluff structures in the 1980s and 1990s when TSR churned out box sets describing them, characters were a lot less powerful. The ability of a 30th level wizard in 2e AD&D to upgrade the global tech level was not even close to what a 3e or 3.5e character could do. I mean, in order to make Netheril work, Ed Greenwood had to distinctly bend the rules, notably to allow for the creation of magical items in an industrialized fashion, which otherwise simply wasn't possible in 2e.



Final Fantasy and other fantasy worlds that involve an industrialized magitech civilization where people still fight with pre-industrial weapons are usually cheating the world building in some way. Specifically they're usually building in a scenario where modern defenses work in such a way that only anachronistic pre-industrial weapons can defeat them, a tradition best exemplified by "The slow blade penetrates the shield." Dune was published in 1965, so it's an old and well-established cheat.

Unfortunately its hard to sustain such a cheat, because there's usually some work around - which hey, Dune also includes an example of, gotta love the classics - and in tabletop in particular magitech is extremely vulnerable to abuse by creatively minded people with knowledge of STEM principles, something that encompasses most gaming tables. This why the various publishers of D&D and D&D derived games like Pathfinder, have, over the years, tried to pretend it's impossible to turn a D&D world into a magitech utopia (or slowly cooling debris field), even though it absolutely is.

Impressive! Are there any more articles on this subject?

PS: The last line is exactly why I don't like Golarion or Greyhawk etc. To hear the devs say it, you would think that everyone there suffers from mental blocks large enough that you wonder how steel was discovered in the world.

[Destro2119]

I suspect you misunderstand. Perhaps an example:

The Greeks had a working steam engine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolipile). But they didn't seem to use it for anything. No trains, no powered boats, no production plants, et cetera. Why? Well, why would they? They had slaves to do all the work, so there wasn't any real point in the thing for them.

Most the time when folks have something that works well enough, they don't go looking for better solutions (especially when the search is expensive and doesn't promise results). So a society that has slaves and most stuff covered by basic magic... isn't necessarily going to be looking to better everything for the have-nots. Especially when the folks that are evil are just as "up there" as the folks that are good.....

Union doesn't have slaves, to my knowledge. (A minor digression, but it seems that the pops of the average DnD world accroding to the tables in DMG are REALLY low compared to even the Middle Ages).

[Destro2119]

Well, the Real World answer is that the makers of D&D want to keep it a vague Medieval Renaissance setting. The idea is simple enough: the appeal of D&D is the roughly right before 1400 or so setting. Roughly right before gunpowder. Once you even add gunpowder, it's not really "D&D" to most people.

The second problem is space. Union, for example, does not get lots of pages in the book. And it would take lots of pages to describe 'advanced' place, and even more pages to describe the 'advanced' rules.

And that leads right into the third big problem: most writers could not do it if they tried. They might be able to say "Union is just like New York City in 2021", but would be hard pressed to give many details. You might get things like "the city has a magic train that goes Weeeee', but not too much else. Magical world building is hard, and it's about ten times harder using an D&D rules set. Most writers are not up to the challenge. They simply don't have the rule mastery, rule knowledge, game knowledge and imagination to do it.

---------

In game universe....well there is no reason Union or any other place would be a "modern wonderland".

The big problem here is the looking back one. As someone in the 21st century looking back into a 13th century world it is beyond easy to say "well why don't they just use magic to create computers". But that 21st century person has the advantage of knowing what a computer is and what it can do. But for someone IN the 13th century it is near impossible for them to think of that.

For example, have you ever tried to explain computers, the internet or any technology to a typically older person who grew up in a world without it? Are you old enough to remember the world without modern tech? If your in the 21st century, can you think up of the next new tech?

To go from the 13th century tech to 21st century tech took hundreds of years. To say it was slow is an understatement. Slowly improvements were made, but new ideas only come along once in a while. And new ideas are SLOW to come out. And most ideas need the support of the rest of the world too as few people create things in a vacuum. Most, if not all, advancement uses and builds on other advancements. And education, reading and communication are right at the top of such spreads.

Remember back in the day when you wanted to learn something, you had two options: 1.Find a book that told you about the topic...good luck. Or 2. Find someone to teach and tell you about it. But now look at 2021. With just You Tube alone you can find a ton of ton of information on nearly everything, in a couple minutes, with just the push of a button.

The second big problem is the magic is a huge crutch. Magic stifles invention. The basic reason anything is created and invented is need. The light bulb was invented so humans can see in the dark....but with magic is very easy to make glowing light, an everburing touch, or just see in the dark. And not only is there very little need, but there is very little advancement to build off of in the first place. Unlike Earth, you don't have countless people before you creating things and inventing things....because they have no need to do so.

The third problem is the alien problem. A true 21st century D&D city would be alien to us. To an extreme. It would be confusing and make no sense and maybe most of all not be fun and cool. It's more then enough to look at a lot of cultures that are not your own and be amazed at how different they are then what you think is normal. And it's about a hundred more times strange to think of the way anything was in the past. If fact, you might note just about all modern media looks back at the past with rose colored glasses. Any fiction set in history 'looks cool' to the modern audience. And that is on top of adding over the top drama and making it safe for a modern view point.

And this is a huge problem for fantasy and sci fi. Lots of classic such fiction was very alien, describing a world nothing like our own. It's popular enough, but does not have the broad appeal of the "just like Earth, but a little different". Both Star Wars and Star Trek have spaceships and zap guns....and then everything else is exactly like it is on modern Earth.

To illustrate this, picture a typical farmer from 1750. They have nothing we consider basic today: no running clean water, no sewer, no electricity, no phone, and no internet. They have to do everything by hand....and by hand that does basically mean THEY have to do it by hand. A typical day is endless work from sunrise to sunset. So then have our farmer get a peak into the future of 2021. And they see someone simply sitting at home in front of a TV/computer screen from sunup to sunset. Water just "comes out of the wall", and so does heat. Lights and nearly all electrical machines are beyond is understanding. One 'box' keeps food cool or frozen and another box 'cooks' food with no fire. And radio, TV, computers and internet are all things way, way, way beyond the farmers understanding. And things like social media...not a chance.

Even the poor guy from say 1980 might be able to understand in a vague way radio, TV, computers and internet of 2021....but it's still light years beyond anything he can really imagine. And he'd be at a huge loss to understand social media.

This brings us back to the 21st century Union city: it would make no sense to a typical 21st century Earth person. Just take the 700 years of magic development: So it's a 25th dimensional outside of time dimensional transcendental relativity differentiated paradox machine settlement. Or simply put....not the sort of place a 'hardy adventuring group' could just walk into to go shopping or have a drink at the tavern.

The fourth and final one is that most people like the "real thing" better then super advanced magic/tech. Many people would rather eat real grown food, not 'food' made by magic or science. Many people like the light and warmth of a real fire. Many people like to cook, not get a meal with the punch of a button or wave of a hand. Many people would much rather read a book, then watch the movie....or have it downloaded into their brain.

Then why doesn't Union look even a little like Eberron?

Also, the people going to Union are people who have been all over the planes and the universe as well. Are you telling me that not even a single one had advanced tech? Also, these people are not 17th century farmers, they are incredibly intelligent individuals with tons of resources who might develop things for fun if not for sheer mundane utility of improving the area.

[Destro2119]

Have you seen the movie Onward? It shows what might happen when magic gets overtaken by technology (in a simplified Disney way). It doesn't factor in the potential age defying methods, but if it is easier to use a lightbulb than learn the spell, people forget how to use magic because people are lazy.

If magic is easy enough to learn, they never figure out the tech (as several above have pointed out).

Everton integrated the two pretty well, resulting in generally less high level magic but a lot of magic/ elemental powered tech.

Also people in power prefer to stay in power- not many are selfless. Epic wizards don't encourage everyone else to reach their level of power.

Well, if they actively did so, I suspect there would be like only 1-3 epic wizards, not like hundreds of them (tens of hundreds or thousands if you count the almost epic ones).

But this is off-point-- the real point is why don't they mass make technomagical items like in Eberron to overall improve life? Hell, at this point they can rule star systems and dimensions, and Union, one of the premier hang-out spots, is still so medieval? It's not like there are laws in Union to stop tech, the mercanes would love it because it is a trading city!

[noob]

It is simply a decoy.
It is meant to look like a capital but it is not and is here only so that murderhobos go and be generally dangerous in a place where few valuables are.
If you are not a murderhobo or one form of adventurer or mercenary or "hero"(you know the ones that are heroes because they defeated and stole a lot of stuff) they show you the real capital with tons of magical cool stuff.

[Destro2119]

So what would a TRULY epic city look like?


PS: To the "magic stifles tech" people-- only if EVERYONE has it. If this is not true, you will eventually have Eberron when everyone realizes that magic is so good they just learn it (through feats that give you spells like a version of 5e's Magic initiate or just the magewright class), and then they make massive improvements for those who can't.

To the "high-powered wizards stop things" people, then there should be FAR less epics in the multiverse than as many Union or Sigil has (not enough for organizations). And if they ever got in a fight, I am pretty sure we wouldn't have a universe to put Union in.

[ShurikVch]

Note: Dragon #277 (November 2000) has three articles:

Steampunk:
https://i.ibb.co/5XZ9JLt/The-Age-of-Steam.jpg

Even the cover art (http://dave.monkeymartian.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Dragon277KevWalker.jpg) was in the style!
Post-industrial:
https://i.ibb.co/jTpS8Zf/greyhawk-2000-war.jpg

https://greyhawkonline.com/greyhawkwiki/images/thumb/d/d3/Greyhawk_2000.png/500px-Greyhawk_2000.png

https://greyhawkonline.com/greyhawkwiki/images/thumb/5/57/Greyhawk_2000_E98DevilRaptor.png/300px-Greyhawk_2000_E98DevilRaptor.png

Greyhawk 2000 for November 2000 :smallamused:
and variable:
https://i.ibb.co/3hGbq99/Fantasy-Futures.jpg

[GeoffWatson]

The Greeks had a working steam engine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolipile). But they didn't seem to use it for anything. No trains, no powered boats, no production plants, et cetera. Why? Well, why would they? They had slaves to do all the work, so there wasn't any real point in the thing for them.


The ancient "steam engine" was just a toy. It had enough power to turn itself, and no more. A functional steam engine would require massive improvements in metal-working technology to create pressure vessels that won't break immediately, among other techologies.

[Destro2119]

Note: Dragon #277 (November 2000) has three articles:

Steampunk:
https://i.ibb.co/5XZ9JLt/The-Age-of-Steam.jpg

Even the cover art (http://dave.monkeymartian.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Dragon277KevWalker.jpg) was in the style!
Post-industrial:
https://i.ibb.co/jTpS8Zf/greyhawk-2000-war.jpg

https://greyhawkonline.com/greyhawkwiki/images/thumb/d/d3/Greyhawk_2000.png/500px-Greyhawk_2000.png

https://greyhawkonline.com/greyhawkwiki/images/thumb/5/57/Greyhawk_2000_E98DevilRaptor.png/300px-Greyhawk_2000_E98DevilRaptor.png

Greyhawk 2000 for November 2000 :smallamused:
and variable:
https://i.ibb.co/3hGbq99/Fantasy-Futures.jpg

Yes! One of the best issues in Dragon history!

One thing though: it seems that a lot of the high magic things would almost make anything being "Steampunk" per se obsolete. I could see Eberron being a stepping stone to replace it and build onto what would ultimately become the post-industrial /future settings (which might result in said settings becoming more magical).

[RNightstalker]

Remember, Medieval times (where D&D is mostly based) were actually a step back in many aspects. The Romans had in-house plumbing already. The Greek were a step away from a steam engine. Superstition ruled the day, and science/"magic" was suppressed if not outlawed completely.

[noob]

Remember, Medieval times (where D&D is mostly based) were actually a step back in many aspects. The Romans had in-house plumbing already. The Greek were a step away from a steam engine. Superstition ruled the day, and science/"magic" was suppressed if not outlawed completely.

It depends on the place, the amount of misconceptions your reader got about the past(it is a prime factor when wanting to do a story that is real looking instead of a story that is based on real things) and a bunch of other factors.
Technology kept progressing during the medieval times such as the compass continuing to spread and improve during that time.
There was in fact lots of technological progress(I will not do a list because it would take months to do a correct one).
The problem is that if you just say "medieval" it is spread over a 10 centuries time period so what you heard about it might be about a shorter time period but then you just said "medieval" instead of saying "in that specific continent right when famine, plague and some wars did hit it".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages
And superstition probably ruled the days before the middle ages it is just that there is a lot less records of that due to those time periods being further away.
In fact superstition rules right now: it is a constant thing rather than a punctual thing.

[Destro2119]

It depends on the place, the amount of misconceptions your reader got about the past(it is a prime factor when wanting to do a story that is real looking instead of a story that is based on real things) and a bunch of other factors.
Technology kept progressing during the medieval times such as the compass continuing to spread and improve during that time.
There was in fact lots of technological progress(I will not do a list because it would take months to do a correct one).
The problem is that if you just say "medieval" it is spread over a 10 centuries time period so what you heard about it might be about a shorter time period but then you just said "medieval" instead of saying "in that specific continent right when famine, plague and some wars did hit it".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages
And superstition probably ruled the days before the middle ages it is just that there is a lot less records of that due to those time periods being further away.
In fact superstition rules right now: it is a constant thing rather than a punctual thing.

Doesn't answer why Union is still so primitive despite being a hub of worlds.

[Mechalich]

So what would a TRULY epic city look like? (Personally, I am of the opinion that it would probably resemble one of the "prior eight worlds" of Numenera, but that's still subjective).

Well, the Tippyverse (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?222007-The-Definitive-Guide-to-the-Tippyverse-By-Emperor-Tippy) is one concept for a highly advanced D&D setting. It's not a perfect or complete concept and is mainly built around the impact of a single magical effect - Teleportation Circles - but it gets you at least oriented conceptually.

One of the difficulties with regard to projecting the actual impact of 3.X level D&D magic is that the magic system is comprised of thousands of individual components - individual spells, magical items, and monster abilities - that were rarely if ever designed to directly interact with each other. Many of these effects, like teleportation circles, are individually powerful enough to drastically deform the world from medieval stasis entirely on their own. Considering them all together rapidly becomes nearly impossible.

Most fantasy concepts of advanced magitech societies mimic what we know actual technology can provide because that's the only model we have.

On a broader level, speculative fiction struggles with the presentation of worlds in which life for the average individual has drastically changed from the human norm. A setting like Eclipse Phase (it's free to get the pdfs so it's very much worth looking at) throws so much advanced technology into the mix that the setting becomes immensely alien to the known human experience in a hurry. And as a scenario grows more and more distant from the typical known human condition it grows more and more distant from typical human stories as well, making it extremely difficult to actually use such a setting. Conversely, one of the appeals of the typical medieval fantasy is that it simplifies.

[noob]

Doesn't answer why Union is still so primitive despite being a hub of worlds.

Theory: at some point it was advanced then murderhobos went in and anything sightly magical was stolen.

[Destro2119]

Theory: at some point it was advanced then murderhobos went in and anything sightly magical was stolen.

I mean... the history of the city as given 100% does not say anything like that. In fact Union has so many anti-theft orgs that such a deed is basically impossible.

[noob]

I mean... the history of the city as given 100% does not say anything like that. In fact Union has so many anti-theft orgs that such a deed is basically impossible.

All the money after the rebuilding was entirely spent on anti theft measures.

[Destro2119]

Well, the Tippyverse (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?222007-The-Definitive-Guide-to-the-Tippyverse-By-Emperor-Tippy) is one concept for a highly advanced D&D setting. It's not a perfect or complete concept and is mainly built around the impact of a single magical effect - Teleportation Circles - but it gets you at least oriented conceptually.

One of the difficulties with regard to projecting the actual impact of 3.X level D&D magic is that the magic system is comprised of thousands of individual components - individual spells, magical items, and monster abilities - that were rarely if ever designed to directly interact with each other. Many of these effects, like teleportation circles, are individually powerful enough to drastically deform the world from medieval stasis entirely on their own. Considering them all together rapidly becomes nearly impossible.

Most fantasy concepts of advanced magitech societies mimic what we know actual technology can provide because that's the only model we have.

On a broader level, speculative fiction struggles with the presentation of worlds in which life for the average individual has drastically changed from the human norm. A setting like Eclipse Phase (it's free to get the pdfs so it's very much worth looking at) throws so much advanced technology into the mix that the setting becomes immensely alien to the known human experience in a hurry. And as a scenario grows more and more distant from the typical known human condition it grows more and more distant from typical human stories as well, making it extremely difficult to actually use such a setting. Conversely, one of the appeals of the typical medieval fantasy is that it simplifies.

Theory: The "standard" DnD world is actually always far more advanced than the real world.

[Quertus]

the real point is why don't they mass make technomagical items like in Eberron to overall improve life? Hell, at this point they can rule planets, and Union, one of the premier hang-out spots, is still so medieval? It's not like there are laws in Union to stop tech, the mercanes would love it because it is a trading city!

2e had a very elegant answer to this: because, while there may be no *rules*, there are *laws* preventing it. As in laws of physics.

Worlds have a technology rating, and technology beyond that *simply doesn't work*.

Now, that doesn't stop a purely magical utopia from forming, but… I've yet to see the PCs even attempt to create one.


What if the US army comes through a gate and tries to conquer Union? Will its denizens be completely unable to resist?

Well, their weapons might well simply stop working, and Google wouldn't be available to tell them what to do. So I expect that they'd just sit there patiently waiting for the Illithid vendors to decide whether or not their brains had spoiled.


Also, the people going to Union are people who have been all over the planes and the universe as well. Are you telling me that not even a single one had advanced tech? Also, these people are not 17th century farmers, they are incredibly intelligent individuals with tons of resources who might develop things for fun if not for sheer mundane utility of improving the area.

Quertus, my signature academia mage for whom this account is named, is one of several of my characters familiar with multiple technology levels.

Honestly, Quertus has never been terribly impressed with technology. It's biggest selling point is, "anyone can use it", which, Quertus reasons, means that you're putting more power into less competent hands, and breeding your population for incompetence. He really can't fathom why you'd want to do either.

From his perspective, he really hasn't found technological worlds to have any real advantages, either. They still have problems - disease, death, war, hunger, pollution, nuclear winter, extinction (species or complete) - and seemingly much less ability (or, at times, wherewithal) to solve them.

Technological armies have a much harder time adapting to "suddenly, Dragons" than magical armies do to "suddenly, orbital bombardment" (as Endgame demonstrates :smallcool:).

I've never seen technology catch on in a world with (good, reliable, powerful, commonly-known) magic - and, really, never seen a reason for it to do so, either.

[Destro2119]

2e had a very elegant answer to this: because, while there may be no *rules*, there are *laws* preventing it. As in laws of physics.

Worlds have a technology rating, and technology beyond that *simply doesn't work*.

Now, that doesn't stop a purely magical utopia from forming, but… I've yet to see the PCs even attempt to create one.



Well, their weapons might well simply stop working, and Google wouldn't be available to tell them what to do. So I expect that they'd just sit there patiently waiting for the Illithid vendors to decide whether or not their brains had spoiled.



Quertus, my signature academia mage for whom this account is named, is one of several of my characters familiar with multiple technology levels.

Honestly, Quertus has never been terribly impressed with technology. It's biggest selling point is, "anyone can use it", which, Quertus reasons, means that you're putting more power into less competent hands, and breeding your population for incompetence. He really can't fathom why you'd want to do either.

From his perspective, he really hasn't found technological worlds to have any real advantages, either. They still have problems - disease, death, war, hunger, pollution, nuclear winter, extinction (species or complete) - and seemingly much less ability (or, at times, wherewithal) to solve them.

Technological armies have a much harder time adapting to "suddenly, Dragons" than magical armies do to "suddenly, orbital bombardment" (as Endgame demonstrates :smallcool:).

I've never seen technology catch on in a world with (good, reliable, powerful, commonly-known) magic - and, really, never seen a reason for it to do so, either.

To the first point: this is 3.X, and none of that really applies.

Also, Endgame and its ilk aren't very good examples. Bad plots and whatnot :smallcool: .

[Dalmosh]

Most advanced real world technology requires physical chemistry to work.

In 3.5, for whatever in-universe reason, Alchemy is explicitly impossible without first being a spellcaster. A run-of-the-mill Expert simply can't even make a flask of acid. I tend to see this as a built-in default hard cap keeping things grounded in magical fantasy.

Once a spellcaster advances to about level 4, alchemy becomes increasingly irrelevant compared to what they can just do with magic. When such options are still useful they are typically augmented and driven with hybrid magic as in Eberron.

[Lord Raziere]

look, here is the thing about DnD magic:

its like programming. you can put anything on an item. all of reality is a platform for one enchantment or another. with that in mind....there is little to no reason to make the items themselves more advanced or elaborate. let me explain:

-a gun? just make a wand with magic missiles
-cell phones? we have literal magic rocks called sending stones for that. sure they only send messages 25 words or loss but thats what people do with cell phones in the modern day today anyways and its not much of a leap to make something more advanced
-car? okay, take carriage or wagon. enchant it to move without a horse and add a steering mechanism, perhaps a wand so it goes in the direction that wand points. done. later designs of wagon might need better seating though. but then again later designs might not have wheels at all and just float....just a box with seats floating around like a hovercar.
-airplane? take a boat. enchant it to fly with similar enchantment to the wagon-car. done.
-prestidigitation takes care of most hygienic concerns so figure out a magic item everyone can use for that
-motorcycles? flying brooms
-artillery weapons are just bigger staves with bigger blasting spells. so why even make a bigger staff? save money, make normal staff fire bigger spells, no need to waste money on making it hard to transport to.
-internet is a bit harder but basically: sending stones but even more advanced than them being cell phones. like hyper advanced sending stones connected to each other across the world and probably more like.....glass tablets like iPad are now. which I mean they are a pane of glass. with magic in it. probably with illusions to show all the internet info. but then why use glass? you could probably use wooden boards, it'd be easier.

you can probably recreate the entire 21st century without advancing materials science one bit, because DnD magic has no limitation on what you can enchant. no reason to make new materials or tools, just enchant all the existing tools to have better or more functions. your magical internet server could be a literal boulder and it would still work. you want magitech that actually looks technological, you gotta change the rules by which the enchantments work so that you need to make better machines to take advantage of what you can enchant with it.

[Mechalich]

Most advanced real world technology requires physical chemistry to work.

In 3.5, for whatever in-universe reason, Alchemy is explicitly impossible without first being a spellcaster. A run-of-the-mill Expert simply can't even make a flask of acid. I tend to see this as a built-in default hard cap keeping things grounded in magical fantasy.

D&D has alternative physics. This is an explicit aspect of its elemental multiverse. The bit in OOTS where Redcloak summons alternative elementals using actual periodic table elements - you can't actually do that in D&D because that's not how the physics of the D&D multiverse work. As a result, things get weird, like really weird, because the fundamental physical laws are so different. One simple example is that, because the Second Law of Thermodynamics doesn't hold in D&D, you can create perpetual motion machines that actually work.


Building on that point, about the invasion: GATE anime and this article:

GATE, and in fact most fantasy worlds, are built at a much, much, lower power level than a fully conceptualized 3.X magitech world would be. This is of course inevitable, because a fully conceptualized D&D magitech world is not recognizable as a traditional fantasy world. It would be something else, something very strange. Truly high-magic fantasy worlds of this nature are in fact vary rare in media. Most existing 'magitech' worlds just use conventional technologies but posit some alternative energy source at the base of production (which isn't all that unreasonable, our human society on Earth is attempting just such a transition right now).

As extrapolated from Clarke's law, sufficiently advanced technology and sufficiently advanced magic are functionally identical devices. However, they primarily appear in science fiction, because that genre is interested in questions about the human condition in hypothetical scenarios and likes to start from a real world baseline even when the 'technologies' are total physics-defying gobbledygook (FTL travel most notably). Fantasy isn't interested in those questions and because a highly advanced magitech world is unfamiliar to the audience and actually significantly more difficult to sustain suspension of disbelief within they are ignored. This is done even when the magic system in a fictional setting absolutely breaks and/or renders the setting nonsensical as presented because a huge portion of the audience will either fail to recognize this or simply won't care (or if your goals are primarily comedic, it won't matter, the MCU buries the absurdity of its universe under a metric ton of quips for a reason).

At the end of the day, the answer to the question: 'how much phlebotinum can I pump into a fictional setting while retaining solid historical parallels and social systems' is 'not much at all.' Serious historical fantasy - such as most of the works of Guy Gavriel Kay - tends to be extremely low magic as a result.

[rel]

High level content in D&D always seems deficient. Sure the numbers might be higher, but the designers seem convinced that the game will otherwise play the same at level 1 and level 100.

Even something as simple as ready access to flight is often completely overlooked in encounter design. Little wonder that the world building is similarly lacking.

Which is not to say that you can't have an epic world without the trappings of magitech, for the alternative aesthetic, look no further than Tolkein.
The problem I think stems from deciding that the game will be played in the normal low level way and providing the resources to support that, scaled up maybe but still very clearly based on the boring and ordinary low level experience.

[noob]

D&D has alternative physics. This is an explicit aspect of its elemental multiverse. The bit in OOTS where Redcloak summons alternative elementals using actual periodic table elements - you can't actually do that in D&D because that's not how the physics of the D&D multiverse work. As a result, things get weird, like really weird, because the fundamental physical laws are so different. One simple example is that, because the Second Law of Thermodynamics doesn't hold in D&D, you can create perpetual motion machines that actually work.

There is planar traits indicating how physics differs from real life in the DMG.
I forgot the specifics.

[Destro2119]

Most advanced real world technology requires physical chemistry to work.

In 3.5, for whatever in-universe reason, Alchemy is explicitly impossible without first being a spellcaster. A run-of-the-mill Expert simply can't even make a flask of acid. I tend to see this as a built-in default hard cap keeping things grounded in magical fantasy.

Once a spellcaster advances to about level 4, alchemy becomes increasingly irrelevant compared to what they can just do with magic. When such options are still useful they are typically augmented and driven with hybrid magic as in Eberron.

For Alchemy you are wrong. It is a mundane craft skill. Also, I was more focused on 3.P, which would include the Alchemist class, a class devoted to alchemy.

[Destro2119]

D&D has alternative physics. This is an explicit aspect of its elemental multiverse. The bit in OOTS where Redcloak summons alternative elementals using actual periodic table elements - you can't actually do that in D&D because that's not how the physics of the D&D multiverse work. As a result, things get weird, like really weird, because the fundamental physical laws are so different. One simple example is that, because the Second Law of Thermodynamics doesn't hold in D&D, you can create perpetual motion machines that actually work.



GATE, and in fact most fantasy worlds, are built at a much, much, lower power level than a fully conceptualized 3.X magitech world would be. This is of course inevitable, because a fully conceptualized D&D magitech world is not recognizable as a traditional fantasy world. It would be something else, something very strange. Truly high-magic fantasy worlds of this nature are in fact vary rare in media. Most existing 'magitech' worlds just use conventional technologies but posit some alternative energy source at the base of production (which isn't all that unreasonable, our human society on Earth is attempting just such a transition right now).

As extrapolated from Clarke's law, sufficiently advanced technology and sufficiently advanced magic are functionally identical devices. However, they primarily appear in science fiction, because that genre is interested in questions about the human condition in hypothetical scenarios and likes to start from a real world baseline even when the 'technologies' are total physics-defying gobbledygook (FTL travel most notably). Fantasy isn't interested in those questions and because a highly advanced magitech world is unfamiliar to the audience and actually significantly more difficult to sustain suspension of disbelief within they are ignored. This is done even when the magic system in a fictional setting absolutely breaks and/or renders the setting nonsensical as presented because a huge portion of the audience will either fail to recognize this or simply won't care (or if your goals are primarily comedic, it won't matter, the MCU buries the absurdity of its universe under a metric ton of quips for a reason).

At the end of the day, the answer to the question: 'how much phlebotinum can I pump into a fictional setting while retaining solid historical parallels and social systems' is 'not much at all.' Serious historical fantasy - such as most of the works of Guy Gavriel Kay - tends to be extremely low magic as a result.

So what would you think such a fully conceptualized 3.X world would look like, starting from Greyhawk levels of development? What would its culture be like what with the elves, dwarves, and all the different races? Could it win a military conflict with Earth? Would it be spacefaring? Would it be interdimensional? Any articles on this topic?

[Destro2119]

look, here is the thing about DnD magic:

its like programming. you can put anything on an item. all of reality is a platform for one enchantment or another. with that in mind....there is little to no reason to make the items themselves more advanced or elaborate. let me explain:

-a gun? just make a wand with magic missiles
-cell phones? we have literal magic rocks called sending stones for that. sure they only send messages 25 words or loss but thats what people do with cell phones in the modern day today anyways and its not much of a leap to make something more advanced
-car? okay, take carriage or wagon. enchant it to move without a horse and add a steering mechanism, perhaps a wand so it goes in the direction that wand points. done. later designs of wagon might need better seating though. but then again later designs might not have wheels at all and just float....just a box with seats floating around like a hovercar.
-airplane? take a boat. enchant it to fly with similar enchantment to the wagon-car. done.
-prestidigitation takes care of most hygienic concerns so figure out a magic item everyone can use for that
-motorcycles? flying brooms
-artillery weapons are just bigger staves with bigger blasting spells. so why even make a bigger staff? save money, make normal staff fire bigger spells, no need to waste money on making it hard to transport to.
-internet is a bit harder but basically: sending stones but even more advanced than them being cell phones. like hyper advanced sending stones connected to each other across the world and probably more like.....glass tablets like iPad are now. which I mean they are a pane of glass. with magic in it. probably with illusions to show all the internet info. but then why use glass? you could probably use wooden boards, it'd be easier.

you can probably recreate the entire 21st century without advancing materials science one bit, because DnD magic has no limitation on what you can enchant. no reason to make new materials or tools, just enchant all the existing tools to have better or more functions. your magical internet server could be a literal boulder and it would still work. you want magitech that actually looks technological, you gotta change the rules by which the enchantments work so that you need to make better machines to take advantage of what you can enchant with it.

I subscribe to the theory that the more "associated" the spell is with the wanted item, the more easily/efficiently it will be to make. So then you have these very specialized spells made using scientific principles so that you can make things like Universal Polymer Bases and replicators and such.

[Destro2119]

High level content in D&D always seems deficient. Sure the numbers might be higher, but the designers seem convinced that the game will otherwise play the same at level 1 and level 100.

Even something as simple as ready access to flight is often completely overlooked in encounter design. Little wonder that the world building is similarly lacking.

Which is not to say that you can't have an epic world without the trappings of magitech, for the alternative aesthetic, look no further than Tolkein.
The problem I think stems from deciding that the game will be played in the normal low level way and providing the resources to support that, scaled up maybe but still very clearly based on the boring and ordinary low level experience.

How would you "fix" this problem?

[gijoemike]

I am going to take a concept from the Chronicles of Amber. I am going to water down this explanation.

Union is a planer hub. This means that super low magic realms connect to it just like the ultra high tippy verse does. Keep that in mind.


The the Chronicles of Amber when one of the Amberites goes to a new plane/dimension sometimes the laws of physics/magic/tech are a little bit different and cell phones don't work, planes don't fly, guns won't fire, or those things work too well and explode or travel near the speed of light. In order to ensure that their tech works the beings that walk pattern, that can alter reality, use swords and tarot cards. Because sharp pointy metal and colored ink on paper works in pretty much every dimension. While in X dimension they will use cars, trains, guns, etc. But they won't walk the dimensions with them because they will not most likely work on the other side.

To those who know the stories, I know I butchered that explanation pretty bad.

Union presents a lowest common denominator of magic in everyday life to provide the appearance of your magic will work and isn't out of the norm. You wouldn't want low magic realm travelers to be greeted by nanobot swarms, or living spells. The appearance of UNION is to avoid the over the top look and feel of tippy verse and Mythal empowered cites of Forgotten Realms. It emulates the base bottom line. High magic realms know they are in the slums but lower magic feel right at home. Everyone has a common ground upon which their past experience can help them reach an understanding. The concept is your magic is accepted and understood here. If you go over the top, that is the one off.


If you flip that, the lower magic realms would be overwhelmed like taking a 12 century scholar to the Vegas strip to attend a convention on internet block chain and encryption practices.

UNION is going out of its way to present itself so that it can be the hub. It isn't that it is incapable of going tippy verse.

[ShurikVch]

Most advanced real world technology requires physical chemistry to work.

In 3.5, for whatever in-universe reason, Alchemy is explicitly impossible without first being a spellcaster. A run-of-the-mill Expert simply can't even make a flask of acid. I tend to see this as a built-in default hard cap keeping things grounded in magical fantasy.
It's awkward 3.5 retcon: most of Goblin Alchemists from Into the Dragons' Lair are Commoners with ranks in Alchemy
Euphoric Imp (Fiend Folio) have 7 ranks in Craft (alchemy) - which gives it +18 with all bonuses -, but is unable to use it, due to lack of any levels in spellcasting classes?
Go home, 3.5, you're drunk...


Once a spellcaster advances to about level 4, alchemy becomes increasingly irrelevant compared to what they can just do with magic. When such options are still useful they are typically augmented and driven with hybrid magic as in Eberron.
Alchemy matter because it's working even when magic is unavailable (and can't be detected - unlike the magic)



look, here is the thing about DnD magic:

its like programming. you can put anything on an item. all of reality is a platform for one enchantment or another. with that in mind....there is little to no reason to make the items themselves more advanced or elaborate. let me explain:

-a gun? just make a wand with magic missiles
-cell phones? we have literal magic rocks called sending stones for that. sure they only send messages 25 words or loss but thats what people do with cell phones in the modern day today anyways and its not much of a leap to make something more advanced
-car? okay, take carriage or wagon. enchant it to move without a horse and add a steering mechanism, perhaps a wand so it goes in the direction that wand points. done. later designs of wagon might need better seating though. but then again later designs might not have wheels at all and just float....just a box with seats floating around like a hovercar.
-airplane? take a boat. enchant it to fly with similar enchantment to the wagon-car. done.
-prestidigitation takes care of most hygienic concerns so figure out a magic item everyone can use for that
-motorcycles? flying brooms
-artillery weapons are just bigger staves with bigger blasting spells. so why even make a bigger staff? save money, make normal staff fire bigger spells, no need to waste money on making it hard to transport to.
-internet is a bit harder but basically: sending stones but even more advanced than them being cell phones. like hyper advanced sending stones connected to each other across the world and probably more like.....glass tablets like iPad are now. which I mean they are a pane of glass. with magic in it. probably with illusions to show all the internet info. but then why use glass? you could probably use wooden boards, it'd be easier.

you can probably recreate the entire 21st century without advancing materials science one bit, because DnD magic has no limitation on what you can enchant. no reason to make new materials or tools, just enchant all the existing tools to have better or more functions. your magical internet server could be a literal boulder and it would still work. you want magitech that actually looks technological, you gotta change the rules by which the enchantments work so that you need to make better machines to take advantage of what you can enchant with it.
Well, firstly: magic is prohibitively expensive to most of the world's population
Also - can be suppressed/dispelled/disjoined
And besides that - who, exactly, would produce such magic?

For the finer points:

-a gun? just make a wand with magic missiles
https://i.ibb.co/gR13czV/AD-slogan.jpg

Weapons

Guns and all manner of modern destructive devices have been developed since
the age of swords and crossbows. Humans being humans, they tend to always be at war, so there's little doubt that as centuries pass even magic-rich worlds will develop new weapons. It’s certainly easier and cheaper to equip an infantry company with rifles than to spend years Teaching every footman how to cast a magic missile spell.



-car? okay, take carriage or wagon. enchant it to move without a horse and add a steering mechanism, perhaps a wand so it goes in the direction that wand points. done. later designs of wagon might need better seating though. but then again later designs might not have wheels at all and just float....just a box with seats floating around like a hovercar.
"enchant it to move without a horse" you said?
But how?
Is there really such magic?
If you meant Animate Object - cars are much faster (and be ready to "surprise dispels")
If you mean Haunt Shift - then remember: it can move no faster than the original Undead (also, all the usual problems with Undead handling)


-airplane? take a boat. enchant it to fly with similar enchantment to the wagon-car. done.
Are you joking?
Nothing in the D&D - aside from Footsteps of the Divine abuse - have any hope to equal the plane's sheer speed
Your boat may work as substitution for a helicopter or dirigible (if sufficiently capacious) - but not a plane


-artillery weapons are just bigger staves with bigger blasting spells. so why even make a bigger staff? save money, make normal staff fire bigger spells, no need to waste money on making it hard to transport to.
You may say so, but even in the Forgotten Realms - that reservation of high-level spellcasters - Red Wizards still cared to develop their own smokepowder and cannons (Thay knockoff of Lantan smokepowder and cannons)



D&D has alternative physics. This is an explicit aspect of its elemental multiverse. The bit in OOTS where Redcloak summons alternative elementals using actual periodic table elements - you can't actually do that in D&D because that's not how the physics of the D&D multiverse work. As a result, things get weird, like really weird, because the fundamental physical laws are so different. One simple example is that, because the Second Law of Thermodynamics doesn't hold in D&D, you can create perpetual motion machines that actually work.
Note - our Earth is one of D&D worlds:
see The City Beyond the Gate adventure,
Elminster, Dalamar, and Mordenkainen meeting at at Ed Greenwood's home on Earth
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/9/99/Wizards_three-2e.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/270?cb=20200721222300
If the physics was so different, then why visitors from other worlds don't spontaneously sprouting tentacles(/falling dead/combusting/exploding/disappearing/.../whatever)?



I am going to take a concept from the Chronicles of Amber. I am going to water down this explanation.
I'm familiar with the concept, but disagreeing with it by the reason I mentioned above.
You see: processes which allow tech to work are, essentially, the same which allow living creatures to live; switch them off - and you will die really fast

[InvisibleBison]

Note - our Earth is one of D&D worlds:
see The City Beyond the Gate adventure,
Elminster, Dalamar, and Mordenkainen meeting at at Ed Greenwood's home on Earth
<image snipped>
If the physics was so different, then why visitors from other worlds don't spontaneously sprouting tentacles(/falling dead/combusting/exploding/disappearing/.../whatever)?

Your evidence that Earth is part of the D&D cosmology is insufficient for two reasons. Firstly, it's possible that in a given D&D cosmology the adventure you're referencing, or any other such material, isn't canonical. Moreover, it's not actually true that a bunch of D&D wizards visited the real-world Earth; rather they visited a fictional world that happens to appear the same as the real world. There's no reason to think that the fictional version of Earth uses the same physics as the real world.

But setting all that aside, and assuming for the sake of argument that a bunch of D&D wizards did in fact visit a world that has the same laws of physics as the real world, the answer to your question is simple: Magic. The spell that brought them to the real-world-physics-world also allowed them to exist in said world despite not complying with its physics.

[Destro2119]

It's awkward 3.5 retcon: most of Goblin Alchemists from Into the Dragons' Lair are Commoners with ranks in Alchemy
Euphoric Imp (Fiend Folio) have 7 ranks in Craft (alchemy) - which gives it +18 with all bonuses -, but is unable to use it, due to lack of any levels in spellcasting classes?
Go home, 3.5, you're drunk...


Alchemy matter because it's working even when magic is unavailable (and can't be detected - unlike the magic)



Well, firstly: magic is prohibitively expensive to most of the world's population
Also - can be suppressed/dispelled/disjoined
And besides that - who, exactly, would produce such magic?

For the finer points:

https://i.ibb.co/gR13czV/AD-slogan.jpg




"enchant it to move without a horse" you said?
But how?
Is there really such magic?
If you meant Animate Object - cars are much faster (and be ready to "surprise dispels")
If you mean Haunt Shift - then remember: it can move no faster than the original Undead (also, all the usual problems with Undead handling)


Are you joking?
Nothing in the D&D - aside from Footsteps of the Divine abuse - have any hope to equal the plane's sheer speed
Your boat may work as substitution for a helicopter or dirigible (if sufficiently capacious) - but not a plane


You may say so, but even in the Forgotten Realms - that reservation of high-level spellcasters - Red Wizards still cared to develop their own smokepowder and cannons (Thay knockoff of Lantan smokepowder and cannons)



Note - our Earth is one of D&D worlds:
see The City Beyond the Gate adventure,
Elminster, Dalamar, and Mordenkainen meeting at at Ed Greenwood's home on Earth
https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/9/99/Wizards_three-2e.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/270?cb=20200721222300
If the physics was so different, then why visitors from other worlds don't spontaneously sprouting tentacles(/falling dead/combusting/exploding/disappearing/.../whatever)?



I'm familiar with the concept, but disagreeing with it by the reason I mentioned above.
You see: processes which allow tech to work are, essentially, the same which allow living creatures to live; switch them off - and you will die really fast

Which is why I raise the point of technomagic. Heck, even a sword is technomagic in a sense.

To paraphrase GURPS Technomancer, the more complex something is, the more magic it will be/incorporate. Fighter jets with magic missile, dimension door, continual lights instead of electric lights, etc.

In terms of manufacturing, refer to my previous point on Universal Polymer Bases and replicators and all that fun stuff. Also see GURPS Technomancer.

Physics... I agree that if Earth can be traveled to at all it exists somewhere in DnD cosmology, and everybody's things work, like magic.

PS: Your gun example is bad. In the modern Greyhawk world, chemical firearms have been obsoleted by *magical* DiM pistols (Dragon 277). Also, Magic's flaws as you say they are: Eberron proves you wrong, magic can be learned. Suprresing/disjoing them is much harder for magic than for tech.

[icefractal]

How would you "fix" this problem?I'm not rel, but ...

First off, the way I'd fix it is incompatible with levels going up indefinitely, so it wouldn't fix the ELH for its intended purpose because I believe that purpose is inherently flawed.

Step 1: Have a concept of what levels mean. 4E's Heroic / Paragon / Epic tiers were the right idea, although they didn't always stick to that. Figure out at least at a high-concept level what your tiers look like.

Step 2: Anchor your setting to those tier concepts, and stay consistent with that! If "8th level" is the peak of what normal training can achieve, then that's as high as a kingdom's elite royal guard will be (regardless of the PCs' level), unless that kingdom is a special outlier that has a team of retired legendary heroes guarding the ruler - which should be notable and commented-on in the setting, and also not 'conveniently' start happening once the PCs are high level. If one day the Great Demon Lord who threatens to crush a path of conquest through all the nations of the world is 10th level, and later on some normal roadside bandits are 12th level, then your level system means nothing.

Step 3: Related to that, go through all the "impossible" things in your setting and decide which are really impossible and which merely require great power, and decide exactly what "great power" means for the latter. Besides the infinite-scaling, the ELH had a major problem from the get-go in that many things that should be Epic had already been created as non-Epic.

Step 4: Go through and decide what tier various capabilities should fall into, and then make that fact obvious. Put advice in the DMG about what capabilities are common at each tier and then stick to that when making adventures.

Step 5: Related to that, make it very easy for PCs to get the common abilities for the tier they're at. It doesn't necessarily need to be guaranteed, but most PCs should have them. The reason people thought a dungeon that's easily defeated by flying made any sense at 15th level is because they looked at a party of: [Fighter whose only magic items are weapons and armor, Cleric who mostly heals and fights with mace, Blaster Wizard who scorns utility spells, and Rogue without UMD] and didn't see any flying.


This isn't without trade-offs! Enforcing that adventures stay consistent this way can directly conflict with the desire to take a cool idea you saw in a book/movie/etc and use it in your next game session. Because maybe when you examine it, that's a high-level plot and the low-level PCs would be toast, or vice-versa. It's easier if you can just say "**** it, for tomorrow's game a rabid bear is more deadly than the avatar of pure entropy." But I find the latter approach gets unsatisfying in an extended campaign. So it's up to each table what to prioritize.

[gijoemike]

snip

I'm familiar with the concept, but disagreeing with it by the reason I mentioned above.
You see: processes which allow tech to work are, essentially, the same which allow living creatures to live; switch them off - and you will die really fast

You have just fallen for one of the basic fallacies of Amber. In this universe with this set of physics that statement is true. When you pattern walk and go elsewhere. None of those statements may be true. And that is why Amberites must use the most basic lowest level of tech. Colored liquid on paper and sharp basic metal. But D&D doesn't have wildly varying laws of physics like you see happen in Amber. So my example holds.


But Back to the OP,

Same concept but it applies to levels of magic only. Go with the lowest common denominator and everybody has a point of reference to logically categorize what is happening and what they are seeing. You don't have to play 20 questions with every single person from a lower level magic dimension.

Image this transaction.
Outsider from Dimension 12 which is low magic: "Excuse me sir, how do I use the hover bridge here?"

Tippy Verse Union: "You don't need to that is for large transportation. Just think about where you want to be and you will instantly appear there.

Outsider from Dimension 12 which is low magic: "I tried that but I cannot find a restaurant."

Tippy Verse Union: "Ugh, do you know why you aren't hungry yet? Of course you don't because you don't understand the basic concept of a sustenance field? There are no inns because you don't need to sleep either.

Outsider from D 12: WHAT?! I am not wearing a magic item or sigil.

Tippy Verse: So? Also your clothes are being repaired.

Outsider from D 12: jaw drops.


Now, take the discussion Durkon had with Thor when he was in the afterlife. He barely understood anything because it was so far past his understanding. Thor had to seriously dumb down and appears to skip most of the explanation just to get Durkon to mostly understand what he was trying to say. Thor has to repeat himself and dumb it down each time.

Or short version,

Keep It Simple Silly, and you won't have to explain how the magical toilet works to the folks from Dimension 34.

[Bugbear]

Then why doesn't Union look even a little like Eberron?

Why would it? Each culture is different. It's not like every city on Earth are the same worldwide.



Also, the people going to Union are people who have been all over the planes and the universe as well. Are you telling me that not even a single one had advanced tech?

Just where would the high advanced tech people come from? Does any 3X book even mention high tech?




PS: To the "magic stifles tech" people-- only if EVERYONE has it. If this is not true, you will eventually have Eberron when everyone realizes that magic is so good they just learn it (through feats that give you spells like a version of 5e's Magic initiate or just the magewright class), and then they make massive improvements for those who can't.


Except everyone does not need to be a spellcaster. The same way everyone in a technology place does not need to be a scientist.

A single spellcaster can make make a fabulous lake of endless pure clean water. Now a whole town has access to clean water.

[Destro2119]

You have just fallen for one of the basic fallacies of Amber. In this universe with this set of physics that statement is true. When you pattern walk and go elsewhere. None of those statements may be true. And that is why Amberites must use the most basic lowest level of tech. Colored liquid on paper and sharp basic metal. But D&D doesn't have wildly varying laws of physics like you see happen in Amber. So my example holds.


But Back to the OP,

Same concept but it applies to levels of magic only. Go with the lowest common denominator and everybody has a point of reference to logically categorize what is happening and what they are seeing. You don't have to play 20 questions with every single person from a lower level magic dimension.

Image this transaction.
Outsider from Dimension 12 which is low magic: "Excuse me sir, how do I use the hover bridge here?"

Tippy Verse Union: "You don't need to that is for large transportation. Just think about where you want to be and you will instantly appear there.

Outsider from Dimension 12 which is low magic: "I tried that but I cannot find a restaurant."

Tippy Verse Union: "Ugh, do you know why you aren't hungry yet? Of course you don't because you don't understand the basic concept of a sustenance field? There are no inns because you don't need to sleep either.

Outsider from D 12: WHAT?! I am not wearing a magic item or sigil.

Tippy Verse: So? Also your clothes are being repaired.

Outsider from D 12: jaw drops.


Now, take the discussion Durkon had with Thor when he was in the afterlife. He barely understood anything because it was so far past his understanding. Thor had to seriously dumb down and appears to skip most of the explanation just to get Durkon to mostly understand what he was trying to say. Thor has to repeat himself and dumb it down each time.

Or short version,

Keep It Simple Silly, and you won't have to explain how the magical toilet works to the folks from Dimension 34.

Oh, so that might be the reason why! But I have to pose the question, if they are low magic, then how did they even get to Union?

Also, lmao at the idea of relatively normal guys from Tippyverse and SF (where magic is basically mundane) rubbing elbows with guys from The Prince of Thorns or Tigana who are considered the highest archmages in the realm and the followers of a follower of a guy 3 seats down is better in magic than him ;)

[Destro2119]

Why would it? Each culture is different. It's not like every city on Earth are the same worldwide.



Just where would the high advanced tech people come from? Does any 3X book even mention high tech?




Except everyone does not need to be a spellcaster. The same way everyone in a technology place does not need to be a scientist.

A single spellcaster can make make a fabulous lake of endless pure clean water. Now a whole town has access to clean water.

To the first point: this is the exact problem: Union *does* look the same "as anywhere else" ie a weirdly medieval town.

To the second point: uh, from the infinite planets of the multiverse?

To the third point: this is literally never even touched upon even once in any setting I have read, including Union. Hence the thread.

[Lord Raziere]

Also check out First Age Exalted for some ideas.

Oh I know First age Exalted very well thank you. its just not very relevant to this discussion. I was specifically talking about DnD magic. a different settings form of magic has no relevance.

and your examples of polymer and tech with magic missiles and whatnot, work better with a society that discovers industrial technology BEFORE they discover magic. because then they have the industrial/engineering mindset to come up with those.

[icefractal]

Keep It Simple Silly, and you won't have to explain how the magical toilet works to the folks from Dimension 34.True to an extent, but a lot of this isn't anything people aren't already familiar with from other media. In some cases it's even simpler:
"What's the street layout? I'm trying to get to the entertainment district."
"The streets don't connect. Just touch one of the light posts and say where you want to go."

How's that any more complex for players to grok than producing a street map (which they probably won't really use to navigate, they'll just point to the area they want to go, so in practice it works the same anyway)?

And while a proper version of how Union's guards are supposed to work (retired adventurers, so each one of them should be fairly unique and probably famous if you know your history) would mean an entire extra chapter, it would make as much sense to say they use constructs (and therefore need only the one set of stats), and give those constructs reasonable abilities for the type of trouble they're supposed to be dealing with.

Union is all about the shopping though, so I'd say that while they probably do have a sustenance field covering all the staff-only areas, the customer areas would be without one by default. That 10k meal at one of the multiverse's finest restaurants wouldn't be as satisfying if you couldn't get hungry beforehand, would it?


Incidentally, in the category of "ridiculously expensive stuff they might sell in Union" - macro-engraving.
Want your family's entire history engraved in absurd detail on your signet ring? With work so fine you need a microscope to see every detail? Well now you can. We magically enlarge the 'canvas' to 100x or more its normal size, have our team of world renowned artists work on it, and then return it to its true size for quality you simply can't find outside Union.

Which brings up a related concept. In the kind of high-magic city that's practically post-scarcity, there's still one thing that's limited in supply - products personally crafted by famous artists/designers. Any chump can have a gaudy mansion made of woven diamond, but this house here? Built by the real Aithlin Vamaer, not a clone, not a shadow-copy.

[Mechalich]

Many of the flaws of Union can be seen as an extension of the idea that D&D gameplay is intended to remain utterly consistent across the entire range of character advancement, from level 1 to level 20 and then even on into epic if you're going to do that. The idea being that the D&D party goes on adventures, to some ruin or wilderness area or dungeon and then they come back to town to sell their loot, rest up, and buy stuff before going out again. This is the basic 'in the box' approach to D&D gameplay.

However, even within this ridiculous video game style limitation that was rejected even back in 2e (where it was assumed that characters achieved leadership posts and moved into kingdom management starting around level 9), at some point characters break the box simply through the increase in sheer numbers on their sheets. Union, in many ways, is simply a way to supply a 'town base' component for a box that can hold epic-level characters. And if you intend to run you D&D campaign like you're running Baldur's Gate the pen and paper version, that actually works. This, of course, if something that a lot of published adventure paths actually do, so apparently a lot of people are content to play that way.


Oh I know First age Exalted very well thank you. its just not very relevant to this discussion. I was specifically talking about DnD magic. a different settings form of magic has no relevance.

First Age Exalted actually has a lot of relevance, because the issues with something like Union, and the influence of high-powered magic on D&D settings is far more about the overall power level than any of the specifics of the magical system. Both lead to two critical issues: the world ends up being almost incomprehensibly weird, and there's nothing to actually do there.

An epic level D&D character can either create their own or swiftly move to whatever version of reality most closely matches their idea of utopia at which point the game ends (and if their idea of utopia is an endless crusade against their ideological opponents they can do that too, but since those opponents are infinite, there's not really any reason to play that out either). This was actually once explicitly stated in D&D's past. In Planescape, Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, and Halflings Planars weren't playable races. The reason given for this was that they all just moved to the paradise established by their various pantheons and then never left.

[Bugbear]

To the first point: this is the exact problem: Union *does* look the same "as anywhere else" ie a weirdly medieval town.

To the second point: uh, from the infinite planets of the multiverse?

To the third point: this is literally never even touched upon even once in any setting I have read, including Union. Hence the thread.

I guess it depends on "where and when" you are comparing things. Compare Union to say 700DR Myth Drannor or -340DR Netheri cities.


No writer, editor, or company has ever really had will to make a high magic alternative setting. D&D is very focused on Adventure, not things like world building. And even more so 3X, as 3X really only has a focus on adventure crunch. A cool class or item for the players to use: 3X is full of them. A world building item: nope.

[Yahzi Coyote]

The Greeks had a working steam engine
The reason they didn't use it for anything is the same reason Charles Babbage's analytic engine didn't get built: materials science.

Consider building a car. You really need rubber for the tires. If you don't live in a biome that has rubber trees... you're wrecked.

We take not only advanced materials, but the global trade infrastructure, for granted. It's not that it's particularly hard to make rubber tires, it's that you need a hundred other steps to be done first, using ingredients found all over the planet.

[Destro2119]

I guess it depends on "where and when" you are comparing things. Compare Union to say 700DR Myth Drannor or -340DR Netheri cities.


No writer, editor, or company has ever really had will to make a high magic alternative setting. D&D is very focused on Adventure, not things like world building. And even more so 3X, as 3X really only has a focus on adventure crunch. A cool class or item for the players to use: 3X is full of them. A world building item: nope.

Well, the appearance of Union has been explained pretty well already: it is so that the "high archmage" of Low magic dimension 12 doesn't get completely overwhelmed by all the multiversal Numenera-shenanigans a planar metropolis (doesn't even need epic levels) would have.

However, it is the FUNCTION of Union that is confusing to me. From the flavor text, Union doesn't even have toilets, let alone advanced magic even a 15th level wizard would have.

[Destro2119]

True to an extent, but a lot of this isn't anything people aren't already familiar with from other media. In some cases it's even simpler:
"What's the street layout? I'm trying to get to the entertainment district."
"The streets don't connect. Just touch one of the light posts and say where you want to go."

How's that any more complex for players to grok than producing a street map (which they probably won't really use to navigate, they'll just point to the area they want to go, so in practice it works the same anyway)?

And while a proper version of how Union's guards are supposed to work (retired adventurers, so each one of them should be fairly unique and probably famous if you know your history) would mean an entire extra chapter, it would make as much sense to say they use constructs (and therefore need only the one set of stats), and give those constructs reasonable abilities for the type of trouble they're supposed to be dealing with.

Union is all about the shopping though, so I'd say that while they probably do have a sustenance field covering all the staff-only areas, the customer areas would be without one by default. That 10k meal at one of the multiverse's finest restaurants wouldn't be as satisfying if you couldn't get hungry beforehand, would it?


Incidentally, in the category of "ridiculously expensive stuff they might sell in Union" - macro-engraving.
Want your family's entire history engraved in absurd detail on your signet ring? With work so fine you need a microscope to see every detail? Well now you can. We magically enlarge the 'canvas' to 100x or more its normal size, have our team of world renowned artists work on it, and then return it to its true size for quality you simply can't find outside Union.

Which brings up a related concept. In the kind of high-magic city that's practically post-scarcity, there's still one thing that's limited in supply - products personally crafted by famous artists/designers. Any chump can have a gaudy mansion made of woven diamond, but this house here? Built by the real Aithlin Vamaer, not a clone, not a shadow-copy.

See, this is my real problem. Not that Union looks medieval, but in many ways it IS medieval, like no toilets or powered vehicles (judging from flavor text alone).

(Although I could have sworn there was a line urging DMs to include whatever they wanted)

[Psyren]

As is often the case, the simplest answer is the most applicable one:

Namely, the majority of D&D players/customers just aren't interested in playing in a Tippyverse or post-scarcity/post-industrial setting. So most if not all of the published settings are reacting to that demand. YOU are interested in exploring that, which is completely fine, but their job is to make money and that means appealing to the broadest base possible - primarily medieval with some magical conveniences.

If that changes one day and urban fantasy/science fantasy etc becomes less niche, I expect D&D will react accordingly, but it hasn't yet. The most popular "urban fantasy" setting by far is Harry Potter, and even that has the wizards several centuries behind the "muggles" in terms of technological advancement.

[ShurikVch]

The most popular "urban fantasy" setting by far is Harry Potter, and even that has the wizards several centuries behind the "muggles" in terms of technological advancement.
Yes - if by "several" you mean "one at most": they have steam engines, photo cameras...
Honestly, the about the only departments they're truly behind are weapons and electric devices (and even then - they may not even need them)



Consider building a car. You really need rubber for the tires. If you don't live in a biome that has rubber trees... you're wrecked.
1) Rubber can be made of dandelions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taraxacum_kok-saghyz#Rubber).
2) Rubber tires appeared no earlier than 1847; first cars appeared in the later XVIII/earlier XIX centuries (see the Oruktor Amphibolos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Evans#Oruktor_Amphibolos) and Puffing Devil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Trevithick#Puffing_Devil) for examples).



You have just fallen for one of the basic fallacies of Amber. In this universe with this set of physics that statement is true. When you pattern walk and go elsewhere. None of those statements may be true. And that is why Amberites must use the most basic lowest level of tech. Colored liquid on paper and sharp basic metal.
And You Fail Physics Forever (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/You_Fail_Physics_Forever) if you think machine made of metals, plastics, and semiconductors are different in any physical way from a "machine" "made" of flesh, bones, and blood.
Please, tell me - what is more sophisticated: a space rocket or a blade of grass? (Hint: nobody is able to make a blade of grass... :smallwink:)
Let's take the known technophobes - such as Yuuzhan Vong (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Yuuzhan_Vong): their "technologies" are alive. So, if it would suddenly stop working - does it would die? And, if yes, - then how the heck Yuuzhan Vong themselves are still alive?
Please, don't get it wrong: Roger Zelazny is one of my most favored authors ever, but the Amber tech situation is one of the most awkward implementations of Fantasy Gun Control (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FantasyGunControl) (because, you know - air guns (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_gun) and steam cannons (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_cannon) existed).



PS: Your gun example is bad. In the modern Greyhawk world, chemical firearms have been obsoleted by *magical* DiM pistols (Dragon 277).
Well, firstly: where you're getting DiM weapons are really magical?
Secondly: if you would look on stats - you will see firearms are mostly superior (except for pistols): sniper rifle have the same damage and crit as DiM rifle - but longer range; HMG do more damage and at longer range than any man-portable DiM weapon.
And finally: I don't see neither DiM shotguns, nor DiM artillery...


Also, Magic's flaws as you say they are: Eberron proves you wrong, magic can be learned. Suprresing/disjoing them is much harder for magic than for tech.
Magic can be learned - that is: by those who have magical aptitude.
And "dispelling" part isn't just my subterfuge - it's in-story example:
One oddish mage produced a magical car.
And guess what?
In the very same day, somebody dispelled it!
Since then - nobody there produced magical cars ever again.



Your evidence that Earth is part of the D&D cosmology is insufficient for two reasons. Firstly, it's possible that in a given D&D cosmology the adventure you're referencing, or any other such material, isn't canonical. Moreover, it's not actually true that a bunch of D&D wizards visited the real-world Earth; rather they visited a fictional world that happens to appear the same as the real world. There's no reason to think that the fictional version of Earth uses the same physics as the real world.

But setting all that aside, and assuming for the sake of argument that a bunch of D&D wizards did in fact visit a world that has the same laws of physics as the real world, the answer to your question is simple: Magic. The spell that brought them to the real-world-physics-world also allowed them to exist in said world despite not complying with its physics.
Well, firstly: DMG says to use real-world knowledge whenever it doesn't contradicts RAW - thus, even if it's not really our Earth, it should be sufficiently close in its laws of nature
Secondly: there are examples of high-tech in the D&D world - such as Return to the Temple of the Frog (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20070223a), Expedition to the Barrier Peaks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expedition_to_the_Barrier_Peaks)
And finally - the whole d20 Modern (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D20_Modern): if Meepo (https://dungeonsdragons.fandom.com/wiki/Meepo) from The Sunless Citadel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sunless_Citadel) was able to get to d20 Modern world - then all the Modern tech should work in D&D too

[Destro2119]

Oh I know First age Exalted very well thank you. its just not very relevant to this discussion. I was specifically talking about DnD magic. a different settings form of magic has no relevance.

and your examples of polymer and tech with magic missiles and whatnot, work better with a society that discovers industrial technology BEFORE they discover magic. because then they have the industrial/engineering mindset to come up with those.

Yes, but the society could have had both high tech and high magic (kind of what Golarion has).

In any case, Union should have it by sheer virtue of being what it is.

[Destro2119]

Yes - if by "several" you mean "one at most": they have steam engines, photo cameras...
Honestly, the about the only departments they're truly behind are weapons and electric devices (and even then - they may not even need them)



1) Rubber can be made of dandelions (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taraxacum_kok-saghyz#Rubber).
2) Rubber tires appeared no earlier than 1847; first cars appeared in the later XVIII/earlier XIX centuries (see the Oruktor Amphibolos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Evans#Oruktor_Amphibolos) and Puffing Devil (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Trevithick#Puffing_Devil) for examples).



And You Fail Physics Forever (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/You_Fail_Physics_Forever) if you think machine made of metals, plastics, and semiconductors are different in any physical way from a "machine" "made" of flesh, bones, and blood.
Please, tell me - what is more sophisticated: a space rocket or a blade of grass? (Hint: nobody is able to make a blade of grass... :smallwink:)
Let's take the known technophobes - such as Yuuzhan Vong (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Yuuzhan_Vong): their "technologies" are alive. So, if it would suddenly stop working - does it would die? And, if yes, - then how the heck Yuuzhan Vong themselves are still alive?
Please, don't get it wrong: Roger Zelazny is one of my most favored authors ever, but the Amber tech situation is one of the most awkward implementations of Fantasy Gun Control (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FantasyGunControl) (because, you know - air guns (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_gun) and steam cannons (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_cannon) existed).



Well, firstly: where you're getting DiM weapons are really magical?
Secondly: if you would look on stats - you will see firearms are mostly superior (except for pistols): sniper rifle have the same damage and crit as DiM rifle - but longer range; HMG do more damage and at longer range than any man-portable DiM weapon.
And finally: I don't see neither DiM shotguns, nor DiM artillery...


Magic can be learned - that is: by those who have magical aptitude.
And "dispelling" part isn't just my subterfuge - it's in-story example:
One oddish mage produced a magical car.
And guess what?
In the very same day, somebody dispelled it!
Since then - nobody there produced magical cars ever again.



Well, firstly: DMG says to use real-world knowledge whenever it doesn't contradicts RAW - thus, even if it's not really our Earth, it should be sufficiently close in its laws of nature
Secondly: there are examples of high-tech in the D&D world - such as Return to the Temple of the Frog (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/oa/20070223a), Expedition to the Barrier Peaks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expedition_to_the_Barrier_Peaks)
And finally - the whole d20 Modern (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D20_Modern): if Meepo (https://dungeonsdragons.fandom.com/wiki/Meepo) from The Sunless Citadel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sunless_Citadel) was able to get to d20 Modern world - then all the Modern tech should work in D&D too

The DiM weapons are magical. Read the article again. They also deal more damage than their conventional counterparts; it's not a stretch to see a DiM sniper rifle, or DiM artillery (left out to include the magical hybrid biotech elf weapons-- did I mention those-- that deal more damage than even the DiM weapons'). Also the normal DiM rifle is equivalent in damage to the sniper rifle, which presumably needs more effort to set up and use.

The car example... so if a thief destroyed Ford's first automobile, he would never build any again?

Magical aptitude just translates out to bare minimum 10-11 INT for magewright or maybe wizard. Even cantrips would greatly benefit the common man.

Your issues with Amber are your own problems, regardless, Earth's physics are much the same as DnDverses, with the exception of germ theory (if disease was really life in the form of bacteria, cure wounds should be causing everyone targeted to die of infection, but it doesn't happen. Figure out why.)

[noob]

Your issues with Amber are your own problems, regardless, Earth's physics are much the same as DnDverses, with the exception of germ theory (if disease was really life in the form of bacteria, cure wounds should be causing everyone targeted to die of infection, but it doesn't happen. Figure out why.)
Option: cure wounds do not quicken the recovery of the organism: it instead replaces parts of the person.
So you have a cut? it removes things around the cut and smoothly add replicate flesh,skin and muscles(made out of positive energy) to replace.
Regenerate do not need a template to do things as it reads the genetic code of the creature and so it is less limited in what it can heal.

[Psyren]

Yes - if by "several" you mean "one at most": they have steam engines, photo cameras...
Honestly, the about the only departments they're truly behind are weapons and electric devices (and even then - they may not even need them)

True, it's not 1:1, but my point is there are anachronisms because making them fully modern would not feel right. That's why they have trains and cameras, but no phones or cars etc. And that is for a magic setting that is explicitly set in the modern day, which D&D settings tend to not be. The closest we're ever likely to get is Eberron unless they're going for an entirely different genre like d20 modern or Starfinder did.

[Destro2119]

True, it's not 1:1, but my point is there are anachronisms because making them fully modern would not feel right. That's why they have trains and cameras, but no phones or cars etc. And that is for a magic setting that is explicitly set in the modern day, which D&D settings tend to not be. The closest we're ever likely to get is Eberron unless they're going for an entirely different genre like d20 modern or Starfinder did.

One of my big worldbuilding inspirations comes from wondering up the society that leads to SF or Tippyverse. Like what advancements would they make? How would magic factor in? Also by looking at things like SF and wondering how magic items were mass produced, "looking behind the curtain" so to speak.

[Mechalich]

One of my big worldbuilding inspirations comes from wondering up the society that leads to SF or Tippyverse. Like what advancements would they make? How would magic factor in? Also by looking at things like SF and wondering how magic items were mass produced, "looking behind the curtain" so to speak.

The path to a super high magic utopia or dystopia varies greatly depending on specific rule choices. A simple example: artificers yes/no? if artificers are available than you can use them as the means of production for all the advanced stuff you need (and you can use various tricks to turn 1 artificer into nigh-endless artificers). But if they aren't available, then mass production of magical items is slightly more complicated and follows a different path. This sort of thing burrows down to choices about individual spells, particularly some of the truly OP ones like Planar Binding and Polymorph any Object. The rulings on how those things work make a huge difference on how a setting develops when you're operating under the paradigm of 'squeeze magic for all its worth.'

[Destro2119]

The path to a super high magic utopia or dystopia varies greatly depending on specific rule choices. A simple example: artificers yes/no? if artificers are available than you can use them as the means of production for all the advanced stuff you need (and you can use various tricks to turn 1 artificer into nigh-endless artificers). But if they aren't available, then mass production of magical items is slightly more complicated and follows a different path. This sort of thing burrows down to choices about individual spells, particularly some of the truly OP ones like Planar Binding and Polymorph any Object. The rulings on how those things work make a huge difference on how a setting develops when you're operating under the paradigm of 'squeeze magic for all its worth.'

Well I assume they exist, and that effort can make advances not listed in a book.

[ShurikVch]

The DiM weapons are magical. Read the article again.
I checked - you're right. Sorry.


They also deal more damage than their conventional counterparts
No, not exactly: DiM rifle does exactly the same damage as Sniper rifle; and, while DiM pistol do more damage than Dwarven pistol - it's still about the same damage as Dwarven SMG


it's not a stretch to see a DiM sniper rifle, or DiM artillery
It's indemonstrable: for all we know, demonstrated performance of DiM rifle is a hard cap
And about the artillery - we have DiM gun: its damage is about 2/3 of Dwarven artillery, and range is incomparable (3000' for DiM gun vs 5 miles for Dwarven Artillery piece), let alone the fact Dwarven shells damage everything within 15' of the hit


(left out to include the magical hybrid biotech elf weapons-- did I mention those-- that deal more damage than even the DiM weapons').
More than rifles, but still notably less than HMG


Also the normal DiM rifle is equivalent in damage to the sniper rifle, which presumably needs more effort to set up and use.
Broadhammer sniper rifle - 4 lbs.
DiM rifle - 8 lbs.
More effort?..



The car example... so if a thief destroyed Ford's first automobile, he would never build any again?
Well, firstly, the question should be not to me, but to the book's author
But I think I understood the reasons:
If you're not a mage - how can you ensure some spellcasting idiot don't dispell your ride in the most inconvenient moment?
And if you're a mage - why would you even need it? Just teleport everywhere!
Automobile, at least, can be protected relatively easily...



Magical aptitude just translates out to bare minimum 10-11 INT for magewright or maybe wizard.
The "Magical aptitude" is notably vague: we know it's exist, but we don't know what it is
PC get it for free by being a "special snowflakes"

Sadly for the temple’s high priest, Llewan Aspenwold (NG female human Clr11 of Mystra), Harrowdale has turned out to be a poor site for a temple to Mystra. The old Harrans do not trust wizards or other practitioners of the Art, and the younger generation lacks magical aptitude — few Harrans possess the basic talents required for successful study of the Art.
Would you insist all younger Harrans are below Int 10? (Population: 90% Humans, 5% Half-Elves, 4% Elves)



Your issues with Amber are your own problems
Amber there was just an example: I dislike the "magic disable technology" trope really really much
If Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Dresden) was really so bad with technology as he insists - he should be run out of Chicago ("torches and pitchforks" style) long before the Storm Front events

[Destro2119]

I checked - you're right. Sorry.


No, not exactly: DiM rifle does exactly the same damage as Sniper rifle; and, while DiM pistol do more damage than Dwarven pistol - it's still about the same damage as Dwarven SMG


It's indemonstrable: for all we know, demonstrated performance of DiM rifle is a hard cap
And about the artillery - we have DiM gun: its damage is about 2/3 of Dwarven artillery, and range is incomparable (3000' for DiM gun vs 5 miles for Dwarven Artillery piece), let alone the fact Dwarven shells damage everything within 15' of the hit


More than rifles, but still notably less than HMG


Broadhammer sniper rifle - 4 lbs.
DiM rifle - 8 lbs.
More effort?..



Well, firstly, the question should be not to me, but to the book's author
But I think I understood the reasons:
If you're not a mage - how can you ensure some spellcasting idiot don't dispell your ride in the most inconvenient moment?
And if you're a mage - why would you even need it? Just teleport everywhere!
Automobile, at least, can be protected relatively easily...



The "Magical aptitude" is notably vague: we know it's exist, but we don't know what it is
PC get it for free by being a "special snowflakes"

Would you insist all younger Harrans are below Int 10? (Population: 90% Humans, 5% Half-Elves, 4% Elves)



Amber there was just an example: I dislike the "magic disable technology" trope really really much
If Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Dresden) was really so bad with technology as he insists - he should be run out of Chicago ("torches and pitchforks" style) long before the Storm Front events

On the topic of weapon weight, remember the creators are not military consultants they are RPG nerds.

On the topic of DiM pistol vs normal guns... are you seriously comparing a handgun to an SMG? Or a lightweight (3 lbs or less) bio weapon to an HMG? Concealability and portability are HUGE advantages.

DiM artillery-- DiM gun compared to normal artillery is apples to oranges, like comparing the rotary cannon on an F22 to a field missile launcher-- totally different uses. And "they didn't print it therefore it is impossible" is a pretty poor argument.

Car argument... it is 100% easier to put down some spike strips or something than to dispel magic. If you are so worried, then just make the car mostly mechanical and the engine is only magic. And if you are in place where people randomly dispel your stuff, you have bigger problems anyways. To answer your other assertion, you make cars at all so your minions can travel faster. Of course, if you want to extrapolate, then eventually you have the magical industrial revolution.

Magic aptitude-- if it was PC exclusive they would SAY something, but as it stands if you argue that you need sort of inherent aptitude (like sorcerers explicitly do) you are not doing according to RAW. Compare to Shadowrun which explicitly says that having the luck to be Awakened is rare, and just because you can pick magic at chargen doesn't mean everyone has it. I can also cite multiple instances in published material (notably any "arcane college" area or Eberron) where you don't need some arbitrary spark to magic.

[ShurikVch]

On the topic of weapon weight, remember the creators are not military consultants they are RPG nerds.
Well, you don't need to be a weapon expert to understand weapon which weighs more are more difficult to handling



On the topic of DiM pistol vs normal guns... are you seriously comparing a handgun to an SMG?
Yes, I do!
Pistol is 3 lbs. For a pistol - it's huge! The direct equivalent would be LAR Grizzly Win Mag (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAR_Grizzly_Win_Mag).
SMG is 4 lbs. Not that different from the pistol. But for an SMG - it's tiny! It's even lighter than H&K MP7 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_MP7) (4.2 lbs.) - which is, by itself, is a borderline machine pistol (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_pistol)...



Or a lightweight (3 lbs or less) bio weapon to an HMG? Concealability and portability are HUGE advantages.
Let me remind you - you said:

(left out to include the magical hybrid biotech elf weapons-- did I mention those-- that deal more damage than even the DiM weapons')
Among the DiM weapon is a "DiM gun" - which is vehicle-mounted. What "concealability and portability"? :smallconfused:
Also, HMG is portable - it's not marked as vehicle-mounted
And good luck to conceal a long bow...
Also, Spirit bows are available only to Elves, and can't even be purchased - which aren't arguments in their favor...



DiM artillery-- DiM gun compared to normal artillery is apples to oranges, like comparing the rotary cannon on an F22 to a field missile launcher-- totally different uses. And "they didn't print it therefore it is impossible" is a pretty poor argument.
I know they're different
I mentioned it only to prevent you from arguing "Yeah, they're totally exist - just not printed!.." Well, guess what - they are printed...
Let me remind you how, exactly, DiM weapons operating:

All dimensional accelerator (DiM) weapons operate in much the same way whether they are lightweight pistols or heavy artillery pieces. Projectiles - usually small caliber, ball-bearing-like bullets made of either titanium or high-density composites - are held in some sort of mechanical clip or other feeder device. The projectile is set into one end of a long barrel that holds two tiny dimensional portals. These tuned portals, products of highly advanced dimensional magic, can be duplicated on a mass production scale but require the copying of a “source vortex” initially provided by Ryuujin.

The first portal sends the projectile through a narrow dimensional wormhole to a point in space in near-solar orbit, and a point in time approximately one hour in the past. High gravitational forces accelerate the projectile, over the course of an hour, to a velocity no form of combustion could ever produce. The projectile then exits from the second dimensional portal in the accelerator barrel a millisecond later. The projectile has lost nearly all of its mass but is now traveling at speeds dose to 15,000 miles per second and is burning at a temperature of 31000F.

The projectile, now a bit of molten titanium the size of a grain of sand, gets from the end of the barrel to its target so fast it doesn’t make any sound, even as it rapidly cools and resolidifies. There is a blinding flash of light at the point that the projectile re-enters through the second dimensional portal as it vaporizes the air. This is hidden by a flash-suppressor at the end of the barrel. There is only a low thud - much quieter than a traditional gun - as air fills the space left by the air that was vaporized. DiM weapons have no recoil. The thud is usually heard at the same time, or right after, the projectile hits its target.
So, if projectile losing "nearly all of its mass" - which kind of shells (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_(projectile)) it can be used in?
High-explosive (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_(projectile)#High-explosive_shells)? Nope.
Shrapnel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_(projectile)#Shrapnel_shells)? Nope.
Cluster (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_(projectile)#Cluster_and_sub-munition)? Nope.
Chemical (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_(projectile)#Chemical)? Nope.
Nuclear (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_artillery)? LOL nope.
Non-lethal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_(projectile)#Non-lethal_shells)? With 15000 mps mi/s and 31000F? Nope.
Guided (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_(projectile)#Guided_shells)? Still nope.
The only kind of shell which can be ever used with DiM artillery is the solid shot.
Also, range of DiM artillery always would have inferior range in comparison to firearm artillery: there is no way to launch shot on ballistic trajectory - the resulting slag is too light, and would be practically harmless at the end of the path.
By the same reason, DiM cannons wouldn't be able to hit enemies behind the hard cover with open (or, at least, less protected) top (such as walls, barricades, etc)



Car argument... it is 100% easier to put down some spike strips or something than to dispel magic.
And spikes wouldn't hurt a "magical car"... Really? Why?


If you are so worried, then just make the car mostly mechanical and the engine is only magic.
IIRR, (Do you know how it's difficult to find a book it was in?) it's about how it was done - enchanted coach or something
Your point?


And if you are in place where people randomly dispel your stuff, you have bigger problems anyways.
Historically, earlier drivers were attacked by local inhabitants - why fantasy world should be any different?


To answer your other assertion, you make cars at all so your minions can travel faster.
Faster than teleportation? :smallamused:


Of course, if you want to extrapolate, then eventually you have the magical industrial revolution.
Check the magic in Zero no Tsukaima (https://zeronotsukaima.fandom.com/wiki/Spells_and_Abilities) - they're able to produce a Golem by a wave of their wands, but no "industrial revolution" ensued
If anything - magic is an impediment for technological advancement: why to change everything, if magic is able to do it better(/faster/easier/cheaper/.../insert epithet there)
It's kinda like with bronze: if there were much less tin - nobody would use bronze; if there were much more tin - nobody would use iron...



Magic aptitude-- if it was PC exclusive they would SAY something, but as it stands if you argue that you need sort of inherent aptitude (like sorcerers explicitly do) you are not doing according to RAW. Compare to Shadowrun which explicitly says that having the luck to be Awakened is rare, and just because you can pick magic at chargen doesn't mean everyone has it. I can also cite multiple instances in published material (notably any "arcane college" area or Eberron) where you don't need some arbitrary spark to magic.
No, I never said magic aptitude is unique for PC
RAW is silent about the "Magic aptitude" - but even the for sorcerers (mentioned by you) it's still not a RAW too (Warforged Sorcerer - for crying out loud!)
Also, what "arcane college"?
Anyway, "Magic aptitude" may be not even a "yes/no" thing, but gradient of some sort: Akar Kessell (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Akar_Kessell) (before he found Crenshinibon (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Crenshinibon))

Slit-eyed, Kessell looked around to see if anyone was watching. "Why not?" he muttered. Pointing a deadly finger at the cat, he uttered the command words to call forth a burst of energy. The nervous feline bolted away at the spectacle, but no magical bolts struck it, or even near it.
Kessell looked down at his singed fingertip and wondered what he had done wrong.
But he wasn't overly dismayed. His own blackened nail was the strongest effect he had ever gotten from that particular spell.

[Destro2119]

Well, you don't need to be a weapon expert to understand weapon which weighs more are more difficult to handling



Yes, I do!
Pistol is 3 lbs. For a pistol - it's huge! The direct equivalent would be LAR Grizzly Win Mag (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAR_Grizzly_Win_Mag).
SMG is 4 lbs. Not that different from the pistol. But for an SMG - it's tiny! It's even lighter than H&K MP7 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_MP7) (4.2 lbs.) - which is, by itself, is a borderline machine pistol (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_pistol)...



Let me remind you - you said:

Among the DiM weapon is a "DiM gun" - which is vehicle-mounted. What "concealability and portability"? :smallconfused:
Also, HMG is portable - it's not marked as vehicle-mounted
And good luck to conceal a long bow...
Also, Spirit bows are available only to Elves, and can't even be purchased - which aren't arguments in their favor...



I know they're different
I mentioned it only to prevent you from arguing "Yeah, they're totally exist - just not printed!.." Well, guess what - they are printed...
Let me remind you how, exactly, DiM weapons operating:

So, if projectile losing "nearly all of its mass" - which kind of shells (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_(projectile)) it can be used in?
High-explosive (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_(projectile)#High-explosive_shells)? Nope.
Shrapnel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_(projectile)#Shrapnel_shells)? Nope.
Cluster (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_(projectile)#Cluster_and_sub-munition)? Nope.
Chemical (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_(projectile)#Chemical)? Nope.
Nuclear (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_artillery)? LOL nope.
Non-lethal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_(projectile)#Non-lethal_shells)? With 15000 mps mi/s and 31000F? Nope.
Guided (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shell_(projectile)#Guided_shells)? Still nope.
The only kind of shell which can be ever used with DiM artillery is the solid shot.
Also, range of DiM artillery always would have inferior range in comparison to firearm artillery: there is no way to launch shot on ballistic trajectory - the resulting slag is too light, and would be practically harmless at the end of the path.
By the same reason, DiM cannons wouldn't be able to hit enemies behind the hard cover with open (or, at least, less protected) top (such as walls, barricades, etc)



And spikes wouldn't hurt a "magical car"... Really? Why?


IIRR, (Do you know how it's difficult to find a book it was in?) it's about how it was done - enchanted coach or something
Your point?


Historically, earlier drivers were attacked by local inhabitants - why fantasy world should be any different?


Faster than teleportation? :smallamused:


Check the magic in Zero no Tsukaima (https://zeronotsukaima.fandom.com/wiki/Spells_and_Abilities) - they're able to produce a Golem by a wave of their wands, but no "industrial revolution" ensued
If anything - magic is an impediment for technological advancement: why to change everything, if magic is able to do it better(/faster/easier/cheaper/.../insert epithet there)
It's kinda like with bronze: if there were much less tin - nobody would use bronze; if there were much more tin - nobody would use iron...



No, I never said magic aptitude is unique for PC
RAW is silent about the "Magic aptitude" - but even the for sorcerers (mentioned by you) it's still not a RAW too (Warforged Sorcerer - for crying out loud!)
Also, what "arcane college"?
Anyway, "Magic aptitude" may be not even a "yes/no" thing, but gradient of some sort: Akar Kessell (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Akar_Kessell) (before he found Crenshinibon (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Crenshinibon))

Look, let's stop discussing DiM weapons since you have proven clearly that no one in the WotC writers department for Dragon back in the day knew anything about gun weights or even touched a gun in their lives because I am pretty sure the weights for modern guns in the DMG put a semiauto at like 3 lbs too (but if you want more info on purely magical/hybrid weapons like them, check out the degenerator pistol and rifle and the Steller Degenerator from Starfinder). BTW HMG's need to be mounted on a vehicle too.

Magical Car could be a hovercar. And you could make more of them over time. Why are you always asserting that teleports will be more common? If that is so, you inevitably get Tippyverse because teleport isn't some secret spell.

Magical aptitude-- novels aren't rulebooks, but Akar Kessell probably barely even has int 10 (in fact judging from his immensely immature and stupid decisions when Crenshinibon is not directly controlling him, he probably has int 9 or even 8). But on the topic of Sorcery Warforged, check out this article: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/ismpfh/retraining_and_the_art_of_genetic_engineering/ I also admit the spark of sorcery is a lot easier than it seems, apparently just chilling next to a highly magical thing like a dragon or a magic meteor is sufficient to cause draconic/arcane/starsoul/insert whatever bloodline here.

Arcane college-- one of the most common tropes in fantasy. Check out this one for inspiration, FR probably has even more: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/74486/where-are-all-of-the-wizard-colleges-in-golarion (and it is worth it to note that in PF Ultimate Campaign, the normal academy building, which is listed separately from the magical academy, actually provides magic for the kingdom.)

[ShurikVch]

Look, let's stop discussing DiM weapons since you have proven clearly that no one in the WotC writers department for Dragon back in the day knew anything about gun weights or even touched a gun in their lives because I am pretty sure the weights for modern guns in the DMG put a semiauto at like 3 lbs too
Well, to be fair to writers, they don't specified much about Dwarven firearms
I mean: yes - 3 lbs. is rather heavy for a pistol, and 4 lbs. - kinda light for a SMG; but, say, Desert Eagle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Eagle) weighs even more than 3 lbs., and Škorpion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0korpion) - even lighter than 4 lbs.

The worse example of dubious weight is a Dragon FP Pistol in the Freeport campaign setting (Dragon Annual 2001) - 4 lbs.
For comparison: Pistolet modèle An IX (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistolet_mod%C3%A8le_An_IX) isn't even a whole 3 lbs...
Moreover, Flintlock Pistol in Warcraft the RPG (both "older" and "newer" version) - is 5 lbs. :smallbiggrin: I mean - 5 lbs., Carl!



BTW HMG's need to be mounted on a vehicle too.
Are you sure?
I mean - its weight listed as 35 lbs. That's less than 1 pound heavier than Maxim–Tokarev (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxim%E2%80%93Tokarev) (which was, supposedly, handheld)



Magical Car could be a hovercar. And you could make more of them over time. Why are you always asserting that teleports will be more common? If that is so, you inevitably get Tippyverse because teleport isn't some secret spell.
The answer to this question is strongly depends on: in which, exactly, book it was...
But, say, in the "Chronicles of strange kingdom" (which was my primary suspect for the source; but, apparently, isn't) about every single mage (save apprentices) is able to teleport, but this isn't resulting in Tippyverse, because teleport ≠ Teleportation Circle.
Moreover, BBEG of the series used for his troops' transport "modern" helicopters (not exactly modern - they're from a world which is a Fallout-style postapocalypse)



Magic in 3.X is not as common as in that anime. They are more "town blacksmith" or "established craftsmen" level of common (which is still more than 3 times as common as medical doctors IRL). So tech wouldn't be replaced on that level, otherwise we wouldn't even have steel swords.
That's strongly depends on: which, exactly, part of "3.X" we're speaking of
Mages in the Zero no Tsukaima are nobles. All of them. No exceptions. I think you're aware of noble/non-noble population ratio?
For the comparison - Halruaa:

Not all Halruaans are wizards, but they act as if they were. Halruaans observe exaggerated social courtesies, taking time for length declarations of intent, ritual sharing of spell components, and other elaborate social niceties. These practices would be a waste of time in a society that didn’t hinge on the worry that a fellow citizen who grows displeased with you could turn you into a toad.
...
Although practicing magic is not necessary to live well in Halruaa, it helps. Those who are capable of casting wizard spells "have the gift," even if they do not make use of their talents. Roughly one-third of all Halruaans have the gift. Of that number, approximately two-thirds have some arcane knowledge and the rest have at least one level of wizard.



Magical aptitude-- novels aren't rulebooks, but Akar Kessell probably barely even has int 10 (in fact judging from his immensely immature and stupid decisions when Crenshinibon is not directly controlling him, he probably has int 9 or even 8).
Then how the heck he became an apprentice of Morkai the Red (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Morkai)? :smallconfused:
I mean - sure, guardian of the North Tower of the Host Tower of the Arcane (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Host_Tower_of_the_Arcane) should be capable to recognize Kessell is unfit for wizardry?..


But on the topic of Sorcery Warforged, check out this article: https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/ismpfh/retraining_and_the_art_of_genetic_engineering/ I also admit the spark of sorcery is a lot easier than it seems, apparently just chilling next to a highly magical thing like a dragon or a magic meteor is sufficient to cause draconic/arcane/starsoul/insert whatever bloodline here.
What "article"? All I seeing by that link is a conversation on Reddit - not that different from a thread on GitP



Arcane college-- one of the most common tropes in fantasy. Check out this one for inspiration, FR probably has even more: https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/74486/where-are-all-of-the-wizard-colleges-in-golarion (and it is worth it to note that in PF Ultimate Campaign, the normal academy building, which is listed separately from the magical academy, actually provides magic for the kingdom.)
You said: "(notably any "arcane college" area or Eberron)"
I hoped to read about it, checked books, found nothing - thus, asked the question...

[Destro2119]

Well, to be fair to writers, they don't specified much about Dwarven firearms
I mean: yes - 3 lbs. is rather heavy for a pistol, and 4 lbs. - kinda light for a SMG; but, say, Desert Eagle (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Eagle) weighs even more than 3 lbs., and Škorpion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0korpion) - even lighter than 4 lbs.

The worse example of dubious weight is a Dragon FP Pistol in the Freeport campaign setting (Dragon Annual 2001) - 4 lbs.
For comparison: Pistolet modèle An IX (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistolet_mod%C3%A8le_An_IX) isn't even a whole 3 lbs...
Moreover, Flintlock Pistol in Warcraft the RPG (both "older" and "newer" version) - is 5 lbs. :smallbiggrin: I mean - 5 lbs., Carl!



Are you sure?
I mean - its weight listed as 35 lbs. That's less than 1 pound heavier than Maxim–Tokarev (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxim%E2%80%93Tokarev) (which was, supposedly, handheld)



The answer to this question is strongly depends on: in which, exactly, book it was...
But, say, in the "Chronicles of strange kingdom" (which was my primary suspect for the source; but, apparently, isn't) about every single mage (save apprentices) is able to teleport, but this isn't resulting in Tippyverse, because teleport ≠ Teleportation Circle.
Moreover, BBEG of the series used for his troops' transport "modern" helicopters (not exactly modern - they're from a world which is a Fallout-style postapocalypse)



That's strongly depends on: which, exactly, part of "3.X" we're speaking of
Mages in the Zero no Tsukaima are nobles. All of them. No exceptions. I think you're aware of noble/non-noble population ratio?
For the comparison - Halruaa:




Then how the heck he became an apprentice of Morkai the Red (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Morkai)? :smallconfused:
I mean - sure, guardian of the North Tower of the Host Tower of the Arcane (https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Host_Tower_of_the_Arcane) should be capable to recognize Kessell is unfit for wizardry?..


What "article"? All I seeing by that link is a conversation on Reddit - not that different from a thread on GitP



You said: "(notably any "arcane college" area or Eberron)"
I hoped to read about it, checked books, found nothing - thus, asked the question...

For the last part-- well, if you can teach magic in an academy at ALL you can probably infer that magic can be taught if you have the aptitude (ie INT score). Because otherwise, we wouldn't have near enough people to have as many schools of magic as a game with "average" magic like PF does, especially not the ways those schools are treated (which are VERY much exams and education based like real colleges are IRL).

That "article" is a discussion on a very interesting piece of RAW that seems to validate how you can "manually" create a sorcerer.

The HMG is a special case. It NEEDS to be mounted on a vehicle b/c of a clause in the table that says all heavy weapons need to be mounted on vehicles.

For Akar Kessell-- you know, I have really no idea. Maybe the guardian lost a bet? From flavor, it looks like the guardian just grabbed him from the nearest dirt farm and ran off.

For teleport vs cars-- because sometimes you need to move a LOT of mundane people from one place to another very quickly. It is kind of a logical step. And Craft Wondrous Item/Craft Construct (mostly for Dedicated Wrights) is available far sooner than teleport.

PS: On the "gift" of magic-- FR's meta magic system lore works differently from Greyhawk or PF's background lore in that I think you actually do need some arbitrary "spark" in *that* setting, which is honestly nonsense considering HOW MANY DAMN CASTERS are in that setting. I do not recall anything like that in PF or Greyhawk, especially not for PF due to its generous retraining rules.

PPS: Someone crunched the numbers on Greyhawk's demographic tables:

As per the Dmg in a city of 20,000 people there should be roughly:
32: 1st, 8: 2nd, 8: 3rd, 4: 4th, 2: 5th, 2: 6th, 2: 7th, 1: 10th, 1: 12th, 1: 14th levels bards clerics and druids, the numbers are the same for adept except there would be 100 1st levels.
16: 1st, 8: 3rd, 2:5th, 4: 6th, 1: 10th, 1: 11th, 1: 12th levels paladins, rangers, sorcerers and wizards.

That means 2% of the cities population can cast at least 1st level spells. 2% of 20,000 people not counting new ones (and the fact that in PF those adepts would likely be full clerics, if only due to James Jacobs distaste for Adepts). Note that the USA has only about one million MDs with a pop of 328 million which is about .35 % (being generous).

[ShurikVch]

For the last part-- well, if you can teach magic in an academy at ALL you can probably infer that magic can be taught if you have the aptitude (ie INT score). Because otherwise, we wouldn't have near enough people to have as many schools of magic as a game with "average" magic like PF does, especially not the ways those schools are treated (which are VERY much exams and education based like real colleges are IRL).
Counter to that argument - Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry: you can't benefit from it unless you was already born with necessary abilities
And even among those - only very few would be able to be any good in Divination: Sybill Trelawney was hired not because she was a capable witch or even good teacher, but because they just don't have any other candidates



That "article" is a discussion on a very interesting piece of RAW that seems to validate how you can "manually" create a sorcerer.
I checked: Retraining rules have no such RAW.
Homebrew?



The HMG is a special case. It NEEDS to be mounted on a vehicle b/c of a clause in the table that says all heavy weapons need to be mounted on vehicles.
Re-check the table: HMG don't have the "1" index - unlike the DiM gun
Thus, if MG 08/15 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_08#MG_08/15) was supposed to be man-portable - with its 39.7 lbs - I don't see why dwarven HMG (35 lbs.) can't be used as individual infantry weapon



For teleport vs cars-- because sometimes you need to move a LOT of mundane people from one place to another very quickly. It is kind of a logical step. And Craft Wondrous Item/Craft Construct (mostly for Dedicated Wrights) is available far sooner than teleport.
And how, exactly, early transport-fit Constructs with fly speed are available?
Also, if you need to move a lot of people - just put them in a Portable Hole, teleport, and then - get 'em out...



PPS: Someone crunched the numbers on Greyhawk's demographic tables:

As per the Dmg in a city of 20,000 people there should be roughly:
32: 1st, 8: 2nd, 8: 3rd, 4: 4th, 2: 5th, 2: 6th, 2: 7th, 1: 10th, 1: 12th, 1: 14th levels bards clerics and druids, the numbers are the same for adept except there would be 100 1st levels.
16: 1st, 8: 3rd, 2:5th, 4: 6th, 1: 10th, 1: 11th, 1: 12th levels paladins, rangers, sorcerers and wizards.

That means 2% of the cities population can cast at least 1st level spells. 2% of 20,000 people not counting new ones (and the fact that in PF those adepts would likely be full clerics, if only due to James Jacobs distaste for Adepts). Note that the USA has only about one million MDs with a pop of 328 million which is about .35 % (being generous).
Demographic tables are dysfunctional (page 18-19 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?372964-Dysfunctional-Rules-VI-Magic-Circle-Against-Errata/page18)) - are you sure you want to rely on them?
Also - how much of cities of such population in Greyhawk?

[Max Caysey]

Now you could say that maybe it's just an aesthetic. Union looks like a normal prime-material town because it was intentionally designed to look like one. Well besides the fact that nothing about the Mercane indicates such a preference, looking normal doesn't really impede any of the above - Union still could (and should) be functionally advanced even if it resembled a simple pastoral village.

Just like the matrix is build to a certain easy recognizable level of technological development, so too is Union... the union mainframe could have chosen something else but the population would probably reject it; ergo you get low tech, medieval Europe!

[Destro2119]

Counter to that argument - Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry: you can't benefit from it unless you was already born with necessary abilities
And even among those - only very few would be able to be any good in Divination: Sybill Trelawney was hired not because she was a capable witch or even good teacher, but because they just don't have any other candidates



I checked: Retraining rules have no such RAW.
Homebrew?



Re-check the table: HMG don't have the "1" index - unlike the DiM gun
Thus, if MG 08/15 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_08#MG_08/15) was supposed to be man-portable - with its 39.7 lbs - I don't see why dwarven HMG (35 lbs.) can't be used as individual infantry weapon



And how, exactly, early transport-fit Constructs with fly speed are available?
Also, if you need to move a lot of people - just put them in a Portable Hole, teleport, and then - get 'em out...



Demographic tables are dysfunctional (page 18-19 (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?372964-Dysfunctional-Rules-VI-Magic-Circle-Against-Errata/page18)) - are you sure you want to rely on them?
Also - how much of cities of such population in Greyhawk?

I could write up a rebuttal to all of your points, but we are off the subject as it is :smallsmile:

So, getting back to the main point, why is Union so ordinary and "medieval" for lack of a better word?

[icefractal]

Just like the matrix is build to a certain easy recognizable level of technological development, so too is Union... the union mainframe could have chosen something else but the population would probably reject it; ergo you get low tech, medieval Europe!Exactly my point - while the Matrix is at a "realistic modern day" level, the Agents get to break the rules and have superhuman capabilities.

So in an "ordinary village" Union, you'd probably have a personal guide (artificially created and telepathically linked up) who can direct you to whatever you're looking for, taking a "shortcut" (non-linear spatial connection) when necessary - and if you're enough of a VIP, they'll create "whatever you're looking for" as needed. Heck, there may be multiple "Unions" with different aesthetics for different tastes, all connected 'backstage' and all hosting the same core businesses. People trying to start trouble just disappear - yoinked backstage by very stealthy guards, where they can be subdued without disturbing anyone.

I guess basically what I mean is that with the resources of an Epic or merely high-level organization, anything looking like unmodified medieval Europe is probably an intentional facade, like Disneyland or a RenFaire. And those don't extend to the staff / functional areas.

[rel]

the more I think about this the more I realise that I find the idea of a high level / epic organisation where even the guy who cleans the toilets is a high level baddass to be unsatisfying.

It makes being a high level seem less special and weakens the distinction between high level and low level. At which point I find myself asking, why play at high levels at all?

[Mechalich]

the more I think about this the more I realise that I find the idea of a high level / epic organisation where even the guy who cleans the toilets is a high level baddass to be unsatisfying.

It makes being a high level seem less special and weakens the distinction between high level and low level. At which point I find myself asking, why play at high levels at all?

This question actually gets at some fundamentals of game design.

First, most games basically support a single specific playstyle. The reality is that it is extremely difficult if not impossible do design a game system that is both mechanically sound and supports doing a whole bunch of different things (or if it is, you end up with something like GURPS which basically demands you use only a small part of the system at any given time). Games that try tend to fall flat on their face.

Second, playstyles struggle with changes in power and scale. When characters become significantly more powerful or more important the natural expectation is that they will do different things. Soldiers, for example, get promoted, and while a Corporal, Sergeant, and even Lieutenant might still mix it up in roughly the same way as a grunt, a Colonel or General definitely won't. While you can write a story where characters solve all their problems in basically the same way across a scale ranging from tribal to cosmic, it's going to be ridiculous (Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann does exactly this, it is incredibly, ludicrously, ridiculous, but that's entirely the point).

Consequently, any game that allows a significant increase in character power over time will reach the point where characters break through the boundaries of the intended playstyle. The natural solution, when this point is reached, is to stop playing the game and roll up new characters. D&D, by the way, has long been aware of this. 2e AD&D both took the steps of curtailing the advancement of character power starting at the mid-levels, and talked about retiring characters when they'd reached a natural endpoint right in the core.

However, while the mechanical solution to character power breaking gameplay is a simple one - just cap character power right before that happens (in 3.X D&D this is broadly understood to be somewhere between level 6 and level 8, which is why E6/E8 is a popular rules modification that just does that) - this presents problems when you're trying to market a game, sell lots of books, and make lots of money. There's a significant portion of the TTRPG fanbase that simply wants to use the same characters forever and it is absolutely in the interest of the company to try and offer them additional product (especially since they tend to be the kind of obsessive fans who actually buy lots of books full of player options). This isn't unique to tabletop, the average MMO spends a huge portion of its resources working on providing at satisfying 'endgame' experience.

The people behind 3e - who were indeed trying to make a lot of money, something that really isn't true of a lot of game publishing teams - therefore faced a conundrum. They could try to develop a setup for actual high-level gameplay that actually worked using the d20 system, or they could pretend that high-level gameplay functioned in the exact same way as low-level gameplay only with bigger numbers. They chose option B. In fairness, I'll add that at the time the ELH was written the designers had absolutely no idea just how much power expansion occurred in the new edition compared to the old one. They wrote the rules for epic level play with no understanding of the capabilities of even lightly optimized level 15-20 casters.

[Particle_Man]

Fan theory: The infinite outer planes are beyond the full comprehension of any mortal. When mortals travel to union it looks like what they unconsciously expect it to look like, and their mind shuts out the parts that “don’t fit”. So Union looks medieval because even with all their powers, the PCs grew up with certain medieval backgrounds that shape their perceptions of the outer planes.

[icefractal]

the more I think about this the more I realise that I find the idea of a high level / epic organisation where even the guy who cleans the toilets is a high level baddass to be unsatisfying.

It makes being a high level seem less special and weakens the distinction between high level and low level. At which point I find myself asking, why play at high levels at all?Very much so. That's a huge problem with the ELH paradigm to me, and it's also why I think that having levels scale indefinitely is fundamentally incompatible with levels being meaningful. Like, even with how high the existing power of 20th level is, you could extend it to 30th or 40th by upping the ante even further. But not to 100th, because by that point you'd be at like 5-6 orders of magnitude above gods, and what does that even mean?

The scale I use for "can you hire people of Xth level" personally is something like:
1-4: Yes, easily.
5-8: Yes, but you might have to look around, it's like finding a highly-experienced specialist.
9-12: Maybe. Some people at this degree of power are happy to remain mercenary and be the big fish in a small pond, but most are focused on their own goals. It helps if you're offering something besides money, like a cause they'd care about or a chance to be part of something big.
13-16: No, and even meeting them may be tricky unless you're a major player yourself.
17-20: No, and it's possible there is no currently-living Sorcerer 20 (for example). Very difficult to meet with even when they do exist.

So by that scale, "Epic level minions" aren't a thing. If a 20th+ level character is part of an organization, they're virtually always in a senior role, and are either the ones running it or are personally dedicated to the cause it's for.

This does pose a problem for anyone needing to interact with potentially-hostile outside forces (ie. guards, but also anyone who does negotiations or has access to sensitive information) - if they're willing to be a cog in the machine, they're probably not powerful enough to handle any serious opposition. My solution would be artificial minions like constructs, simulacra, etc. Potentially also bound outsiders or undead, depending on the organization.

[rel]

The easy solution is that there simply aren't any high level organizations, societies or similar.

Consider a setting where there are only about 100 level 15-20 creatures in total and maybe 20 creatures of epic level. But every single one of them is a MASSIVE deal in terms of their influence and impact.
No one runs the epic lemonade stand in epic town. There is no epic town. There is no epic bar, the epic barkeep is not offering 1 million GP to clear the epic rats from her epic basement.

But everyone, even the level 15 barbarian are legends in their own right. songs are sung about them, people in far off lands speak their names in whispers, they are the movers and the shakers. The levers of the world.

As you level up, things naturally become more personal as the pool of opponents shrinks until eventually, everything you face is something you've heard of. Something unique. Something special.

[Destro2119]

Very much so. That's a huge problem with the ELH paradigm to me, and it's also why I think that having levels scale indefinitely is fundamentally incompatible with levels being meaningful. Like, even with how high the existing power of 20th level is, you could extend it to 30th or 40th by upping the ante even further. But not to 100th, because by that point you'd be at like 5-6 orders of magnitude above gods, and what does that even mean?

The scale I use for "can you hire people of Xth level" personally is something like:
1-4: Yes, easily.
5-8: Yes, but you might have to look around, it's like finding a highly-experienced specialist.
9-12: Maybe. Some people at this degree of power are happy to remain mercenary and be the big fish in a small pond, but most are focused on their own goals. It helps if you're offering something besides money, like a cause they'd care about or a chance to be part of something big.
13-16: No, and even meeting them may be tricky unless you're a major player yourself.
17-20: No, and it's possible there is no currently-living Sorcerer 20 (for example). Very difficult to meet with even when they do exist.

So by that scale, "Epic level minions" aren't a thing. If a 20th+ level character is part of an organization, they're virtually always in a senior role, and are either the ones running it or are personally dedicated to the cause it's for.

This does pose a problem for anyone needing to interact with potentially-hostile outside forces (ie. guards, but also anyone who does negotiations or has access to sensitive information) - if they're willing to be a cog in the machine, they're probably not powerful enough to handle any serious opposition. My solution would be artificial minions like constructs, simulacra, etc. Potentially also bound outsiders or undead, depending on the organization.

It's actually pretty easy to have a high level organization.

Epic level minions are a misnomer-- they would just hire lower level people. Heck, by epic levels, there is no excuse for everything not to be automated and industrialized on a crazy level-- think fast time demiplanes full of devices that do nothing but create gold and create raw materials every round, every day, every year, every century. These are people who if you cashed out all their wealth in gp you would have galaxies made of nothing but gold. These are people who could pull a red giant star into a demiplane that is billions of miles wide.

[Efrate]

You can make the same arguments about Sigil even if its ruled by plot device that slaps gods if they get out of hand and literally connect to everywhere.

Short answer: designer intent.
Longer answer: devs sucked at worldbuilding.

It is not just the ELH. At even lower levels the entire setting should be post scarcity and if not tippyverse the drastically different. The everfull larder from SBG feeds up to 432000 people a day every day and cost 15k gp. One of those feeds nearly any statted city for a pitiful investment. There is a similar item for water. The entirety of the worlds should easily have these or something similar. It saves tons of resources if all kinds. Given time every settlement everywhere should easily have access to one of these.

Thats not counting wall of salt for infinite wealth. Or fabricate, or....

Depending on your world, technological and magical advancement is held in check by gods. But magic also means technology is deincentivised and you can get a spell that does anything.

Plus science requires centuries of advancements to build upon, and if bob the gnome wants to make something that works like magic but not he has to start mostly from scratch. And if he doesnt keep detailed notes once he dies all his knowledge is gone. Or most likely thrown out by whoever takes care of his body.

Real world science comes from questioning, starting with basic natural principles and asking why and how. Those questions did not have a definitive known answer or solution. In dungeon and dragons they do. Why is there sun? Becuase of the god of the sun who is known and revered and provably real. How does it work? Magic. A real observable force that can pretty much transcend any and all limitations of reality. Even if someone has no magical knack, no inclination to learn, they know it exists, and can be harnessed in a bunch of ways.

Magic is also supremely efficient. Taking very little time, a functionally infinite resource, and minor costs. How much is metal, rubber, materials, and time would it take to make a better broom? How about maintenence on said broom? Can the average dirt farmer afford it? How much is an at will item of prestidigitation that anyone can use? The numbers are not there.

Even if you make a like magic but not thing, unless you can make an maintain for free or near enough, the cost is too high. I am sure there are tons of pet projects and whatnot, but it just cannot compete with magic large scale.

Also science is not cheap. While researching, how are you feeding yourself and your family? Extrapolate that out to a city and you see why it just is not realistic (HA).

Points of leveling, epic, etc. are more design fails. The game where monk and wizard are supposed to be equal does not understand itself well at all and the designer wanted blaster, healer, sneak, meat shield to be a team with little variation that will solve problems by blasting, healing, sneaking, and meat shielding. Anything beyond that they are not prepared for, and were not planned.

As for the 25th level monk scrubbing floors? He knows his place vs the 11th? 9th? level plus casters. They do not prestidigitate the floors because it makes him feel useful.

Also, pretty much all dnd settings are pretty much post apocolyptic, and all the cool stuff was lost. Happens every few years to keep the setting about as it is. Time of troubles, spellplague, gaint demon invasion, undead uprising, wild hunt, living spells escaping, etc. etc.

[Bugbear]

It's actually pretty easy to have a high level organization. The Time Lords and Gallifrey would be an example of a "high level organization" on the level of a planet.

Well, it's not like Gallafrey is a world full of high level people. First off, most Gallafreans are not even Time Lords. Time Lords are an elite social class. And the vast bulk of all Time Lords, like really any group, is made up of low and mid level people and a couple high level people.

[Destro2119]

nevermind this

[Destro2119]

You can make the same arguments about Sigil even if its ruled by plot device that slaps gods if they get out of hand and literally connect to everywhere.

Short answer: designer intent.
Longer answer: devs sucked at worldbuilding.

It is not just the ELH. At even lower levels the entire setting should be post scarcity and if not tippyverse the drastically different. The everfull larder from SBG feeds up to 432000 people a day every day and cost 15k gp. One of those feeds nearly any statted city for a pitiful investment. There is a similar item for water. The entirety of the worlds should easily have these or something similar. It saves tons of resources if all kinds. Given time every settlement everywhere should easily have access to one of these.

Thats not counting wall of salt for infinite wealth. Or fabricate, or....

Depending on your world, technological and magical advancement is held in check by gods. But magic also means technology is deincentivised and you can get a spell that does anything.

Plus science requires centuries of advancements to build upon, and if bob the gnome wants to make something that works like magic but not he has to start mostly from scratch. And if he doesnt keep detailed notes once he dies all his knowledge is gone. Or most likely thrown out by whoever takes care of his body.

Real world science comes from questioning, starting with basic natural principles and asking why and how. Those questions did not have a definitive known answer or solution. In dungeon and dragons they do. Why is there sun? Becuase of the god of the sun who is known and revered and provably real. How does it work? Magic. A real observable force that can pretty much transcend any and all limitations of reality. Even if someone has no magical knack, no inclination to learn, they know it exists, and can be harnessed in a bunch of ways.

Magic is also supremely efficient. Taking very little time, a functionally infinite resource, and minor costs. How much is metal, rubber, materials, and time would it take to make a better broom? How about maintenence on said broom? Can the average dirt farmer afford it? How much is an at will item of prestidigitation that anyone can use? The numbers are not there.

Even if you make a like magic but not thing, unless you can make an maintain for free or near enough, the cost is too high. I am sure there are tons of pet projects and whatnot, but it just cannot compete with magic large scale.

Also science is not cheap. While researching, how are you feeding yourself and your family? Extrapolate that out to a city and you see why it just is not realistic (HA).

Points of leveling, epic, etc. are more design fails. The game where monk and wizard are supposed to be equal does not understand itself well at all and the designer wanted blaster, healer, sneak, meat shield to be a team with little variation that will solve problems by blasting, healing, sneaking, and meat shielding. Anything beyond that they are not prepared for, and were not planned.

As for the 25th level monk scrubbing floors? He knows his place vs the 11th? 9th? level plus casters. They do not prestidigitate the floors because it makes him feel useful.

Also, pretty much all dnd settings are pretty much post apocolyptic, and all the cool stuff was lost. Happens every few years to keep the setting about as it is. Time of troubles, spellplague, gaint demon invasion, undead uprising, wild hunt, living spells escaping, etc. etc.

This "science tangent" is interesting, but it still has plot holes. Even if "all the cool stuff was lost," the reappearance of items like the aforementioned Larder in books basically is a tacit admission that it has bee rediscovered in some way.

In any case, NONE of this helps to answer why the whole MULTIVERSE is at a so called postapocalyptic level, or why Union, or Sigil is so low tech in appearance and, as implied by books, function.

[Endarire]

Maybe those with the resources simply don't want to share them.

[Ashtagon]

The reason Union looks so "primitive" is because of massively powerful magic. PCs from fantasy mileaus see it to appear as if it were a city they are familiar with. PCs from a morte modern mileau see it to appear with modern architecture and furnishings. And PCs from Space Station Alpha see a high-tech city. In all cases, they are see the exact same city. Is it an illusion or is it reality? No one really knows for sure, but it doesn't appear to radiate magic.

[noob]

The reason Union looks so "primitive" is because of massively powerful magic. PCs from fantasy mileaus see it to appear as if it were a city they are familiar with. PCs from a morte modern mileau see it to appear with modern architecture and furnishings. And PCs from Space Station Alpha see a high-tech city. In all cases, they are see the exact same city. Is it an illusion or is it reality? No one really knows for sure, but it doesn't appear to radiate magic.

then afterwards the medieval guy is notice the modern people are staring at their hands for hours and wonders "what makes people so much obsessed with their own hands" while they were in fact looking at their own smartphones.(that are invisible to medieval people because the concept people could look at pain inflicting boxes for hours is just so weird it can not be translated under magical item shape)

[Destro2119]

Maybe those with the resources simply don't want to share them.
Still doesn't solve "medieval epic level city" situation.

[Destro2119]

then afterwards the medieval guy is notice the modern people are staring at their hands for hours and wonders "what makes people so much obsessed with their own hands" while they were in fact looking at their own smartphones.(that are invisible to medieval people because the concept people could look at pain inflicting boxes for hours is just so weird it can not be translated under magical item shape)

The question is why doesn't Union make and sell sci-fi commlinks/datapads/computers whatever. Even if they are based on magic, Union is a place where that sort of thing could effortlessly be developed for practical reasons.

[noob]

The question is why doesn't Union make and sell sci-fi commlinks/datapads/computers whatever. Even if they are based on magic, Union is a place where that sort of thing could effortlessly be developed for practical reasons.

I was talking about ashtago theory of "you can only see things you are familiar with" which means that even if union was entirely made out of commlinks and datapads(no air: there is just breathable datapads and so on) a medieval person would not be able to see any of those.

[Destro2119]

I was talking about ashtago theory of "you can only see things you are familiar with" which means that even if union was entirely made out of commlinks and datapads(no air: there is just breathable datapads and so on) a medieval person would not be able to see any of those.

What if someone wants to teach him how to use one? Is he just doomed to never know?

[noob]

What if someone wants to teach him how to use one? Is he just doomed to never know?

You could probably show things incrementally: for example start by explaining the scry spell then show a scrying orb and keep introducing closer and closer concepts?
But I am not sure: it is not my theory.

[Destro2119]

You could probably show things incrementally: for example start by explaining the scry spell then show a scrying orb and keep introducing closer and closer concepts?
But I am not sure: it is not my theory.

Frankly there is a lot of gaps in that theory; it if were an illusory thing it would be fine, but if you enter a warehouse full of datapads you have the problem of friends being able to scale a pile of datapads to get to the other side but you falling through them because they don't exist to you somehow.

[Ashtagon]

Those datapads would probably get re-interpreted as personal crystal balls (which somehow don't roll when dropped).

[Destro2119]

Those datapads would probably get re-interpreted as personal crystal balls (which somehow don't roll when dropped).

Well if they function the exact same then there IS no difference other than an aesthetic reskin in that case.