When should a Fighter dip 1 level of Cleric [Archive]

Arkhios

2021-01-24, 11:56 PM

If you feel strongly about being fighter/cleric, then sooner you take cleric level(s), the better. Especially if it's only one level, take it at level 2. Delaying Extra Attack to 6th character level isn't end of the world. But delaying it further than that, especially as a Cavalier, is not worth it.

So, you'd have to wait until 8th character level to get access to Darkvision yourself. Assuming level cap at 15-ish, you'd be half-way through the campaign at that point and might have gotten Goggles of Night or your allies may already be accustomed to casting the spell on you.

As someone said above, over all, I don't think it's worth it for the sake of one spell.

Just realized that you said specifically Twilight Domain Cleric. Which gets Darkvision as a Domain feature at 1st level, access to the spell being irrelevant to this!

BoringInfoGuy

2021-01-25, 01:10 AM

Feels like minimal gain for continual delays on significant power increases. Waiting an extra level is not bad at low levels, but you feel it more as you get to the mid range. Up to you if that is a worthwhile trade.

But something I am curious about. I have not seen the official release in Tasha’s, so does it still grant Heavy Armor and Martial Weapon proficiency? If so, then what downside is there to taking Cleric before Fighter? All the same armor and weapon proficiencies, but you trade out Str / Con saves for Wis / Cha. Wisdom saves are useful against mind control effects, making Resilient Wisdom a common recommendation in fighter guides. Taking Cleric first removes that concern and frees up an ASI. And you get that dark vision you want starting at session one.

Am I missing something?

5eNeedsDarksun

2021-01-25, 01:22 AM

Given that you are in the Class that grants the most ASIs, if you really think you need it then I'd look at getting Devil Sight rather than delaying advancement.

Arkhios

2021-01-25, 02:29 AM

Given that you are in the Class that grants the most ASIs, if you really think you need it then I'd look at getting Devil Sight rather than delaying advancement.

True. However, there is the point that if the campaign will be set underground from the start, a character without natural darkvision or other means of seeing in the dark is pretty much in trouble. Ask yourself, would you be willing to wait from 1st level until 4th or 6th level to get that ability?

Lunatism

2021-01-25, 02:40 AM

Feels like minimal gain for continual delays on significant power increases. Waiting an extra level is not bad at low levels, but you feel it more as you get to the mid range. Up to you if that is a worthwhile trade.

But something I am curious about. I have not seen the official release in Tasha’s, so does it still grant Heavy Armor and Martial Weapon proficiency? If so, then what downside is there to taking Cleric before Fighter? All the same armor and weapon proficiencies, but you trade out Str / Con saves for Wis / Cha. Wisdom saves are useful against mind control effects, making Resilient Wisdom a common recommendation in fighter guides. Taking Cleric first removes that concern and frees up an ASI. And you get that dark vision you want starting at session one.

Am I missing something?

Some good 1st level cleric spells (shield of faith, bless, protection from evil and good) require concentration, proficiency in Con save can help to keep the spells up.

5eNeedsDarksun

2021-01-25, 02:45 AM

True. However, there is the point that if the campaign will be set underground from the start, a character without natural darkvision or other means of seeing in the dark is pretty much in trouble. Ask yoursrelf, would you be willing to wait from 1st level until 4th or 6th level to get that ability?

There are a couple of ways of answering this. From the Min/Max point of view, it's definitely worth considering taking a race that grants darkvision or a VHuman feat to sort it out from the get go.
From a role playing point of view, I kind of miss the days of playing and DMing in campaigns where it was customary for the group to be carrying torches and feeling a little vulnerable at low levels. I think it's unfortunate if the game has reached a point where being in the dark is no longer an issue for anyone, or a single character who can't see in the dark is considered a liability for the party. In some respects I'd like the challenge.
We did just play through Curse of Strahd with 2 characters who started without darkvision and I think it added to the mood. Though in fairness while there were dark sections, the entire campaign wasn't underground. I think the poster needs to consider how their group and the DM will react, as well as if there will be lit areas, and if other characters will be able to cast darkvision on occasion by 3rd level; if that's the case we are only talking about 1 extra level before they have a partial solution. I'd personally try and get by without dipping unless I liked it thematically or my group was really getting annoyed.

Arkhios

2021-01-25, 02:50 AM

There are a couple of ways of answering this. From the Min/Max point of view, it's definitely worth considering taking a race that grants darkvision or a VHuman feat to sort it out from the get go.
From a role playing point of view, I kind of miss the days of playing and DMing in campaigns where it was customary for the group to be carrying torches and feeling a little vulnerable at low levels. I think it's unfortunate if the game has reached a point where being in the dark is no longer an issue for anyone, or a single character who can't see in the dark is considered a liability for the party. In some respects I'd like the challenge.
We did just play through Curse of Strahd with 2 characters who started without darkvision and I think it added to the mood. Though in fairness while there were dark sections, the entire campaign wasn't underground. I think the poster needs to consider how their group and the DM will react, as well as if there will be lit areas, and if other characters will be able to cast darkvision on occasion by 3rd level; if that's the case we are only talking about 1 extra level before they have a partial solution. I'd personally try and get by without dipping unless I liked it thematically or my group was really getting annoyed.

Personally I feel it's a bad habit to suggest another race to an OP when they have clearly said they want to play a certain race.

Besides, trying to shoehorn Min/Max approach to everyone's planning is not fun. You do you, but let others do their own. Try to expand on the tools that they have laid out rather than suggest throwing their build in the bin and self-insert something else entirely.

Waazraath

2021-01-25, 02:51 AM

Given that you are in the Class that grants the most ASIs, if you really think you need it then I'd look at getting Devil Sight rather than delaying advancement.

You can only pick up an invocation with a feat as a caster, alas. So unless switching Cavalier for Eldritch Knight, this doesn't work.

Arkhios

2021-01-25, 03:08 AM

You can only pick up an invocation with a feat as a caster, alas. So unless switching Cavalier for Eldritch Knight, this doesn't work.

Oof, nice catch. Even I hadn't noticed (or paid enough attention to) that prerequisite.

Note to self: re-adjust my just-for-fun builds in accordance to this "new" information :smalltongue:

J.C.

2021-01-25, 03:20 AM

Fighter X/ Wizard 1 is a better dip. Grab all of the level 1 Rituals, Shield, Absorb Elements, Find Familiar, Sleep, Wizard Magic Items and Wizard Spell Scrolls . . .

Lunatism

2021-01-25, 03:27 AM

Fighter X/ Wizard 1 is a better dip. Grab all of the level 1 Rituals, Shield, Absorb Elements, Find Familiar, Sleep, Wizard Magic Items and Wizard Spell Scrolls . . .

If you refer to OP, you can know his need (dark vision) better and help contribute to this thread.

J.C.

2021-01-25, 03:30 AM

If you refer to OP, you can know his need (dark vision) better and help contribute to this thread.

Find Familiar (Bat)

Engage BAT SIGNAL

Arkhios

2021-01-25, 03:34 AM

Find Familiar (Bat)

Engage BAT SIGNAL

There's a problem that when you look through your familiar's eyes, you're both deaf and blind yourself, and suffer from all the drawbacks from being deafened and blinded. Even if the bat sits on your forehead.

Relevant part from Find Familiar:
While your familiar is within 100 feet of you, you can communicate with it telepathically. Additionally, as an action, you can see through your familiar's eyes and hear what it hears until the start of your next turn, gaining the benefits of any special senses that the familiar has. During this time, you are deaf and blind with regard to your own senses

Deafened Condition:

A deafened creature can't hear and automatically fails any ability check that requires hearing.

Blinded Condition:

A blinded creature can't see and automatically fails any ability check that requires sight.
Attack rolls against the creature have advantage, and the creature's attack rolls have disadvantage.

J.C.

2021-01-25, 03:37 AM

There's a problem that when you look through your familiar's eyes, you're both deaf and blind yourself, and suffer from all the drawbacks from being deafened and blinded. Even if the bat sits on your forehead.

Whatever you perceive through your familiar eyes is what you perceive. Explain how I am deafened.

Arkhios

2021-01-25, 03:39 AM

Whatever you perceive through your familiar eyes is what you perceive. Explain how I am deafened. [{⊙♤□⊙□⊙♤□⊙♤□]

The spell is clear that you are not fully aware yourself. "During this time, you are deaf and blind with regard to your own senses." And thus, above conditions apply to you. Period.

Edit: I am truly sorry that you take my reading of the rules as an offense against you. It isn't personal. It's me reading Rules As Written. It's right in there, in the rules text. Believe what you will, but don't expect everyone will agree with you. I don't.

Lunatism

2021-01-25, 03:40 AM

Whatever you perceive through your familiar eyes is what you perceive.

It take up you main action every turn.
Not even practical.

J.C.

2021-01-25, 03:45 AM

And yet here I am.

Arkhios

2021-01-25, 03:46 AM

And yet here I am.

{Scrubbed}

J.C.

2021-01-25, 03:50 AM

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

{Scrubbed}

kazaryu

2021-01-25, 04:07 AM

I’m playing in an Underdark campaign starting at level 2. As a Warforged planning on tanking as a Cavalier, I’m tempted to dip 1 level as a Twilight Cleric to get darkvision and to up my support a little more. Should I go Fighter 1/Cleric 1/Fighter X, or Fighter 5/Cleric 1/Fighter X, or something else?

something to keep in mind. darkvision...kinda sucks in 5e. if you're tanking, that means you're at the front. in you're at the front its not just about being able to see in the dark sort of, its improtant to be able to see well. you're gonna be the first one in line to see obstacles, ambushers, all those sorts of things. and darkvision doesnt improve your ability to do that, you still have disadvantage on perception checks that rely on sight.

i'd instead recommend looking for ways to get the light cantrip (which is, tbf, super easy to do). so you can still do that same cleric dip, but instead do a different subclass.

arcane cleric can get you booming blade which is a useful tanking tool (punishes people for moving) while still giving you access to things like bless and healing word.

forge domain gives you +1 AC and access to searing smite.

graves cleric: empowers your ability to get someone up from 0 and, if you have no spell slots left, lets you stabilize a fallen comrade as a bonus action, from a range.

order: heroism for a bit of THP and some free attacks to your allies.

peace: concentration free slightly weaker version of bless (that stacks with bless) that scales with your proficiency.

war: easy bonus action attack (seems unlikely that a tank is going to be using a polearm).

alternatively you can do similar with sorcerer, which natively allows you to take booming blade.

clockwork: remove disadvantage on allied saves seems very fitting for a tank. uses scales with proficiency not class level. you also pick up protection from good/evil which..while niche is *Really* good for the niche that its in.

divine soul: add 2d4 to your own save (so your party doesn't lose its tank) while also obviously giving access to 1 or 2 cleric spells.

draconic: eh, bit of extra HP.

shadow: free darkvision, and a small chance to not go down when you hit 0. obviously not something to rely on, but its generally easier to run out of hp in the early levels. and the damage taken in early levels means the DC for the save is going to be small enough that you actually have not horrible odds of passing the save.

tempest: cast a spell to aid an ally, then 'teleport' over to next to them. definitely fitting for a tank.

you probably want to start with fighter (not just the con save, but also weapon/armor proficiences). after that i'd say the break points are lvl 2 or lvl 6. obviously if you go for booming blade, its *best* pre level 5, similarly if you do shadow sorc specifically, the boons you get from it would be better pre level 5. but most of the others i think could go either way.

obviously the downside of going light instead of darkvision is that you're making a beacon out of yourself...but relying on darkvision is a good way to get ambushed or walk into a trap. so it kinda comes down to preference.

Arkhios

2021-01-25, 04:26 AM

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

That you recommended a level in Wizard over a level in Cleric wasn't the point. Maybe I just misunderstood the comment I quoted above.

Care to explain then, what did you mean with "And yet here I am"? {Scrubbed}

Chronic

2021-01-25, 08:38 AM

As Kazariu said before, darkvision isn't that good since most of the time you still have disadvantage on perception check, which means that most of the time you will still need lights. Grab some torches or a light cantrip.

mistajames

2021-01-25, 09:34 AM

If you just want Darkvision, I would grab Eldritch Adept - Devil's Sight as a feat and forget about the dip.

EDIT: Yep, totally not an option.

Waazraath

2021-01-25, 10:09 AM

If you just want Darkvision, I would grab Eldritch Adept - Devil's Sight as a feat and forget about the dip.

Was already covered in the thread, you can't if you aren't a spellcaster.

Keravath

2021-01-25, 10:23 AM

There are several dips that provide darkvision and might be worth considering

- 1 level Twilight cleric
- 1 level Shadow sorcerer
- 3 levels of Gloomstalker ranger
- 2 levels of warlock for devils sight
- the darkvision spell is 2nd level and requires at least 3 wizard levels or 7 levels of eldritch knight (not useful in this context)
- Eldritch Adept feat: Devils sight (only good for caster class since that is a prerequisite for the feat)
- custom race background from Tasha's - darkvision, feat, +2 to one stat
- 3 levels of shadow monk

In this case the preferred options would be an early one level dip or start with it at first level. The character wants to be mostly a fighter.

Options:

1) The simplest is the Tasha's custom race option if available to the players in this game since they can start with darkvision and a feat.

2) The second is to take 1st level in one of the classes that gains darkvision at level 1 - twilight cleric or shadow sorcerer. Starting sorcerer requires a charisma of 13, you pick up 4 utility cantrips for flavor and a couple of spells including shield but your first level hit points are lower - you also have issues with heavy armor proficiency if you were planning on a strength fighter build. The cleric option retains armor and weapons but changes the primary save to wis ... however, if you leave your con stat odd you can pick up resilient con later and you will want it before tier 3.

In addition, if you start as a caster at level 1 and vHuman or custom you could pick up the Eldritch Adept feat for Devil's sight. This makes a 1 level wizard at level 1 (or any other caster) an option since you can get Devil's sight without need for darkvision.

3) The remaining option (to get darkvision early) is to start fighter 1 and then take the one level dip in shadow sorcerer or twilight cleric at level 2. Slight delay with darkvision for the first level but from level 2 onward you will have some ability to see in the dark.

The main issue with dips is the delay of the increase in ability at level 5 and somewhat again at level 11.

Ultimately, it is the OPs choice on which route to take but the easiest is the Tasha's custom race and the +2 to one stat is sufficient for a fighter.

Finally, when playing a character who needs to see in the dark (rogues are a prime example), I prefer trying to get Devils Sight.

Although many DMs are pretty lax on playing in the dark, Darkvision is not a substitute for a light source. Disadvantage on perception checks with darkvision means that there will be a lot of potential traps and ambushes that the players may miss as they try to move stealthily through the dark.

Darkvision isn't a great substitute for a light source unless you are in a situation where it is less safe to use a light source than to see your surroundings. It can be worth the risk usually if you don't want to be seen (since carrying a light source makes you obvious) but if run properly, a group moving around using just darkvision has significant vulnerabilities.

On the other hand, a character with Devils Sight sees in darkness as if it was brightly lit which avoids all of the issues associated with using Darkvision in darkness.

Sol0botmate

2021-01-25, 12:05 PM

Fighter X/ Wizard 1 is a better dip. Grab all of the level 1 Rituals, Shield, Absorb Elements, Find Familiar, Sleep, Wizard Magic Items and Wizard Spell Scrolls . . .

That is not true really if it's 1 level only You only have 2 spells/long rest. That means you will only use it when encounter is really serious.

Bless and Shield of Faith are better because while SoF is +2 vs Shield +5 AC - SoF lasts 1 hour (can go through couple encounters) and Bless can buff multiple people with d4s to attack and saves and free your party cleric concentraton slot for something stronger (like SGs or AoV).

Not to mention that Wizard on 1 gives almost nothing else while Cleric domains like Peace or Twilight give SUPERB 1st level features that are great right of the batt

As for the topic question:

Imo it's best to either take dip after level 5 (Extra Attack) or after level 11 (Extra Attack).

I would for Peace Cleric. Emb.Bond scales with Proficieny and it's super strong dip.

Sception

2021-01-25, 12:35 PM

Feels like minimal gain for continual delays on significant power increases. Waiting an extra level is not bad at low levels, but you feel it more as you get to the mid range. Up to you if that is a worthwhile trade.

I disagree with this. For martial classes, their best features are typically early ones. For example, as a fighter your first extra attack is a +100% modifier to your existing attack action. But your second extra attack is only +50%, and your third only +33%.

Cavalier's later subclass features are good, but you don't anticipate reaching level 20, and as a tank you probably want to take sentinel before level 10, which makes several aspects of Hold the Line redundant (hopefully your DM allows some form of feat retraining). Warding maneuver at level 7 is pretty good, but suffers from competition for your reaction and potentially overlap with interdiction, if you take that fighting style.

Again, all good features, Cavalier is a good subclass, but you shouldn't feel bad about delaying any of them one level for Guidance, Spare the Dying, 300ft darkvision (especially in an underdark campaign), permanent advantage on initiative (which you can give to an ally if another party member needs it more), and two spell slots per day to cast Bless or Healing Word.

About the only level you'll feel like you're maybe missing out is 5th level when you could have had extra attack but don't yet, but even then you should be ok, especially since you're focused on tanking/support and aren't filling the role of primary damage output for the party.

Honestly, after you've grabbed extra attack, I'd strongly recommend ducking back into cleric for at least one more level to grab an extra spell slot plus twilight sanctuary 1/short rest. It's not as amazingly strong as it is on a full cleric, but even a second level twilight sanctuary is still an extremely useful tool to be able to pull out in tough fights.

5eNeedsDarksun

2021-01-25, 12:37 PM

Personally I feel it's a bad habit to suggest another race to an OP when they have clearly said they want to play a certain race.

Besides, trying to shoehorn Min/Max approach to everyone's planning is not fun. You do you, but let others do their own. Try to expand on the tools that they have laid out rather than suggest throwing their build in the bin and self-insert something else entirely.

If you read my entire post you'll see I threw this out as a counterpoint to the bulk of what i wrote, which was to counsel the OP not to do this. I think that it's pretty clear by describing it as a Min/Max approach and the context that this is not what I was suggesting.

JonBeowulf

2021-01-25, 01:27 PM

I haven't seen anyone ask the most relevant question: Does the rest of the party have Darkvision?

If so, then I say start with cleric (or go F1/C1/F+ if the profs don't line up... AFB) and have fun.

But if not, then you having it as a Tank serves no benefit at all since there will always be a light source and you won't be sneaking off by yourself.

KorvinStarmast

2021-01-25, 02:58 PM

BoringInfoGuy

2021-01-25, 05:30 PM

Some good 1st level cleric spells (shield of faith, bless, protection from evil and good) require concentration, proficiency in Con save can help to keep the spells up.

It is a good point.

However, trying to hold Concentration while in melee is a dubious tactic. The Cavalier’s Mark mechanic pushes more attacks against the Cavalier. Multiple hits received is multiple chances to lose concentration. Even with proficiency and a good Con score, you can easily loose a concentration spell early if surrounded by enemies.

The Ward ability would help offset that, when it comes online at Character level 8 (Cavalier 7).

But with only a single level dip of Cleric, you get stuck at only two spells per day. While Bless and Shield of Faith are great spells even past low levels, it may be a better strategy to hold those slots in reserve for an emergency Healing Word to bring back a dying ally.

Bless or Shield of Faith can help a battle go your way. Healing Word gives a chance to turn around a battle that has already turned south. First time you have a single Breath Weapon (or similar) take half the party from full to zero HP and the rest of the near death is when you learn to really value the ability to get people back on their feet ASAP.

If the OP was looking to do more than a single level caster dip, I’d agree that Con Saves would be much better. For two 1st level spells per day? ::shrug::

Still, that sort of thing depends on party makeup, DM style and player preference. Something for the OP to consider.

Is there a full cleric in the party? Does the DM have creatures attack 0 HP PCs? Does the OP have any actual interest in Cleric abilities beyond getting Darkvision from the Twilight domain?

Sol0botmate

2021-01-25, 05:42 PM

However, trying to hold Concentration while in melee is a dubious tactic.

Wait what? It's not that hard. With 20 CON and 9th level you are 100% guarantee to succeed DC 10 Conc

If you take Peace Cleric level and have Emb.Bond active + you have Bless active then you have extra 2d4 + to save one saving throw and d4 to every saving throw.

That means that you have 100% success of DC 12 and once per turn on DC 15.

I don't see a problem in maintaining concentration on Fighter/Cleric at all. As many hits in melee of damage 20+ you expect on level 9 apart from boss fights?

Also if you have Shield n Sword + Defense + Shield of Faith then you have 23 AC before any other buff or magic items. That means that creatures with +6 to hit need min of 17 roll to hit you.

5eNeedsDarksun

2021-01-25, 06:00 PM

It is a good point.

However, trying to hold Concentration while in melee is a dubious tactic. The Cavalier’s Mark mechanic pushes more attacks against the Cavalier. Multiple hits received is multiple chances to lose concentration. Even with proficiency and a good Con score, you can easily loose a concentration spell early if surrounded by enemies.

The Ward ability would help offset that, when it comes online at Character level 8 (Cavalier 7).

But with only a single level dip of Cleric, you get stuck at only two spells per day. While Bless and Shield of Faith are great spells even past low levels, it may be a better strategy to hold those slots in reserve for an emergency Healing Word to bring back a dying ally.

Bless or Shield of Faith can help a battle go your way. Healing Word gives a chance to turn around a battle that has already turned south. First time you have a single Breath Weapon (or similar) take half the party from full to zero HP and the rest of the near death is when you learn to really value the ability to get people back on their feet ASAP.

If the OP was looking to do more than a single level caster dip, I’d agree that Con Saves would be much better. For two 1st level spells per day? ::shrug::

Still, that sort of thing depends on party makeup, DM style and player preference. Something for the OP to consider.

Is there a full cleric in the party? Does the DM have creatures attack 0 HP PCs? Does the OP have any actual interest in Cleric abilities beyond getting Darkvision from the Twilight domain?

If the OP is going to multiclasss I tend to agree that it's not worth starting Fighter for the Con saves. For the amount you will be casting the Wisdom saves are far more valuable. Perhaps for an odd score it's worth taking the other down the road, but if I had to pick one it would be Wisdom to avoid the save or suck spells.

Sol0botmate

2021-01-25, 06:44 PM

If the OP is going to multiclasss I tend to agree that it's not worth starting Fighter for the Con saves. For the amount you will be casting the Wisdom saves are far more valuable. Perhaps for an odd score it's worth taking the other down the road, but if I had to pick one it would be Wisdom to avoid the save or suck spells.

That depends. If you dip Cleric you mostly want to be able to cast some spells from it. As a Fighter you will be in hot spot during encounter. You will be engaging a lot of enemies, you will be first up front to eat arrows, spells etc. Even with high AC it's a matter of number of attacks that you will get. CON save will help you keep that Shield of Faith up and mitigate a lot of damage just by +2 AC. Bless is also something very good in certain party setups (Lots of GWM or Sharpshooters or fighting vs a lot of nasty effects).

Spell or suck spells should be mitigate by your party wizard/sorc/bard with Counterspell. It's their job to battle enemy magic. If you have Cleric or Druid - once level 11 they will have Hero's Feast and give you advantage on WIS saves + immunity to Fear for 24h anyway + they have ways to mitigate charm or fear (Twilight Cleric is especially good here).

If you pick Cleric at start you get WIS/CHA saves but you will have to pick up that RES (CON) on the way anyway to not waste the power that this dip gives.

Also if you start as Cleric and it's not Forge, Twilight, Life etc. then you lose Heavy Armor proficiency as Fighter multiclass give only medium armor, not heavy. Which would also require you to have at least 14 DEX to make use of it. So if you make STR Fighter for GWM/Grapple etc. then you shoot yourself in foot and make yourself MAD. You need now STR, DEX for Medium, CON for concentration, and WIS for multiclass.

So if you want to take Cleric like Peace cleric for example who is EXCELLENT DIP for Fighter - you need to start as Fighter for Heavy Armor proficiency. Then you only need to focus on STR + CON and WIS as third one for dip. You can still pick RES (CON) on level 8 or 12 as Fighters have more feats.

So to sum it up:

1. You will need CON and WIS proficiency anyway along the way. WIS is crucial for Fighter but so is CON for front liner + using that precious SoF/Bless when needed.
2. If you don't start as Cleric with Heavy Armor - you either need to become DEX Fighter or be really MAD with STR, DEX, CON and WIS high enough.
3. Your party spell caster should take care of enemy spells + if you have Cleric/Druid/Bard they should be able to battle stuff like Fear or Charm.

I would pick Peace Cleric level 1 dip at level 6 and then pick up RES (WIS) on when I feel like it's a problem now or not. So level 8 or level 12.

andaval

2021-01-26, 06:08 PM

Sol0botmate

2021-01-26, 06:24 PM

Whoa, I missed a lot of discussion.

Answering some questions:
5 person party, 3 other players have darkvision. So if I go Twilight, everyone is covered (the 5th person only for an hour).

There is no full Cleric in the party, there is a Druid and a Bard. So having Guidance and Bless is not redundant. I might take a 2nd level for the channel divinity sometime after getting extra attack.

I agree Peace cleric looks mechanically stronger but the character concept background is an Underdark Sherpa and Twilight Cleric fits that very well.

I don't want to mess with your character concept, however if party has no cleric and you want cover some of that roll- wouldn't it be better to just go Paladin and combine half-divine-caster with martial chasis?

If not then I would start as Cleric, then go Fighter because Twilight gives heavy armor so you don't lose that proficiency when you multi to Fighter. Pick up RES (CON) at some point.

The general difference is picking RES (CON) or RES (WIS) at some point. CHA and STR saves are both rare enough no to prioritize them too much.

andaval

2021-01-26, 06:32 PM

Starting Cleric makes sense, I’ll probably do that. I’m not really trying to fulfill a divine caster role - I’m tanking for a spore Druid, a Rogue and a Bladesinger. I want to get Darkvision for utility and the 1 level Cleric dip is enticing because I could also get Guidance and Bless/SoF.

Zaile

2021-01-26, 07:27 PM

I say start cleric. Wisdom saves are nice for a melee. Think of it this way. You will want both WIS and CON saves anyway, but Resilient Wis is a waste of a feat and a stat point if you don't pursue cleric. Resilient Con isn't as you are raising a stat you were going to max anyway.

Bloodcloud

2021-01-26, 07:44 PM

You could also pick the Blind fighting combat style. Not quite darkvision, but it can pick up other things...

sambojin

2021-01-26, 07:52 PM

Honestly, go fighter then cleric. The Con proficiency is simply better than Wis (wis saves become a problem later, concentration saves happen from lvl1), and you lose little to nothing. I probably wouldn't ever bother getting Resilient (Wis), there's simply better things for you to use your ASIs on.

Don't forget to be an a-hole and use Guidance on almost every skill check. Only joking, but having that at your starting lvl2 (fighter1/ cleric 1) fits pretty well for the "Sherpa knows stuff" role as well.

Remind your Spore Cleric to not be a whimp and to use wildshape offensively sometimes as well, and definitely not for spores all the time. By lvl2/4 they'll have a pretty big range of wildshapes to use, that you'll sometimes be blessing for +to-hit, and things like g.constrictor snake restrain/ Velociraptor pack tactics/ jaculi death springs/ frilled deathspitter multi-attacks and the "wildshape tHP" from these forms mean that you shouldn't be the only one on the frontlines all the time. At least early-on. They'll be jealous of your Con save proficiency, even if no-one else is. On those fights where there's one round of prep time, or just big fights, you Bless, they Wildshape, and then you both go in to rip things apart. By level 8 (or 5 with them casting Conjure Animals), you have a flying Yoshi in them as well (ok, a Giant Eagle) to make you feel more Cavalier in what you're doing. Your lvl7 Cavalier ability, that you'll get at lvl8, may as well get some use.
It's debatable, but normal little wildshape is often better than spores until about level 6-7, especially alongside a tanky fighter. Especially one that can give you free dodge or +AC and resistance every once in a while as a bonus for standing alongside them and biting things to death. With Enlarge/Reduce now on a druid's spell list, the world is your oyster on your choice of team-ups together. He can also "nova" as a frilled deathspitter with spores for both his wildshape charges, if there's ever two rounds of prep time (there almost never is, but he might already be wildshaped), and the damage output is surprisingly good for a "non-melee" class alongside the tHP he'll have. He can just be a regular full caster/summoner for the next encounter :)
(non-Moon druids are way better in melee than people give them credit for, especially around level 2-6, by which point they're good casters anyway)

Later on, you also have the option of dipping in another cleric level as well. Probably around lvl8/9 or 13/14. This is solely for your channel divinity and Tasha's "get a free spell slot" option from it. Short rest resources are always handy anyway, and Twilight Sanctuary is pretty good. You'll then have 4 spell slots a day, and can still feel pretty magical in the mid or late campaign, while also helping out in your tanking role.

DwarfFighter

2021-01-27, 12:00 PM

Ettina

2021-01-27, 02:30 PM

Gloomstalker ranger is another possibility. It's a 3 level dip instead of 1 level, but ranger meshes better with fighter than cleric does.

Alternatively, if you're OK with making light instead of seeing in the dark, magic initiate can give you the light cantrip for a feat instead of a level dip.

Both of those options could also give you spot healing, if you want.

Although a fighter going twilight cleric because he's trapped in the Underdark has interesting RP potential. You're trapped in the dark, so you start going a bit nutty and worshipping the darkness around you...

Frogreaver

2021-01-27, 09:04 PM

Doesn't someone know the light cantrip? If so I'd say you are good to go without darkvision.

If you still want Darvision I'd probably start as cleric and MC into Fighter. Just because roleplaying that transition is alot easier and more natural than playing a fighter for a while, starting to be a cleric and then go back to being a fighter.

The min-max threshold here just doesn't seem like enough to worry about and so I'd base my decision on roleplaying.

andaval

2021-01-28, 10:40 AM

One thing about Con vs Wis saves is that as a Warforged, I’m already resistant to poison and have advantage against poison saves. So Con proficiency is a little redundant

Arkhios

2021-01-28, 10:44 AM

One thing about Con vs Wis saves is that as a Warforged, I’m already resistant to poison and have advantage against poison saves. So Con proficiency is a little redundant

Constitution Proficiency is much more relevant because maintaining Concentration is a Constitution Saving Throw, not because most saves against poison are made with Constitution, nor because higher constitution means more hit points.

Sol0botmate

2021-01-28, 11:53 AM

One thing about Con vs Wis saves is that as a Warforged, I’m already resistant to poison and have advantage against poison saves. So Con proficiency is a little redundant

If you want to cast anything - it will be concentration to keep spell. If you are front liner you will get hit. A lot. Even with high AC becasue you will be first target. Mathematically you will be tested for CON much more often than you party Wizard who is probably way behind and counts on you being in front and hold enemies.

If you want to dip Cleric that means you want to make use of his spells like Bless or Shield of Faith. Since you have very little slots available - it's even more important to you to keep that concentration as level 8+ Cleric can allow himself to lose conc on 1st level spell, since he can cast them a lot. You don't.

Also advantage vs poison does not give auto success and resistance does not protect from being poisoned.

Sure, you can start as Cleric for WIS saves but you will have to pick CON prof on the way anyway.

sockmonkey

2021-01-30, 07:30 AM

Find Familiar (Bat)

Engage BAT SIGNAL
I forget, does the sensory information automatically get parsed for you? If not, you're better off with an owl. Plus owls fly silently.

Darkvision isn't a great substitute for a light source unless you are in a situation where it is less safe to use a light source than to see your surroundings. It can be worth the risk usually if you don't want to be seen (since carrying a light source makes you obvious) but if run properly, a group moving around using just darkvision has significant vulnerabilities.
This is a pretty important point. Many critters in the Underdark are going to have darkvision or low-light vision themselves. Probably sharper hearing and smell than most humanoids too. Unless everyone else has darkvision, just go with using a light source because your group isn't going to be sneaking up on anything anyway.