Nerfing Decanter of Endless Water

[DragonBaneDM]

Hey Playground!

In my Eberron game, we've got an aquatic elf rogue/battlemaster with dreams of becoming a pirate queen! When we made the character, she picked out a decanter of endless (sea)water as a starting item so that she could adventure with the rest of our non-aquatic team without any issues.

She's recently gotten a few other sea elves to help out the party, and are going to be acting as supplementary crew/muscle aboard the Lyrandar airship they take to various places, woo!

This has led the party to ask if they could find another decanter of endless (sea)water to buy from a place in Xen'drik that might carry it. PCs spending gold on characters other than themselves? How lovely!

I go, "Makes sense to me! There's loads of aquatic elves and sahuagin in Stormreach that would benefit from that item, and it makes sense someone would make those/retrieve them from nearby ruins. Let me just look up the price in the Sane Magical Items PDF and we get----135,000 GP...."

They do not have that, they are level 7. And if I DID make the item worth that much and able to be traded, they should IMMEDIATELY get the pirate to pawn it for even a fifth of the price and make more money than I've given them during their most recent dungeon crawl.

I'll admit that Sane Magic Items Prices isn't my bible, but I totally understand why Saidoro put that price tag on there: if your campaign has a semi-decent sized desert town in it's world, you now own it, and should stop adventuring to make back your 135,000 GP several times over.

What I'm wondering though, is saying that the decanter only makes endless salt-water enough of a nerf to bump it down to an affordable cost? If so, does making it cost the usual NonCombat But Super Useful Pricetag of 1,000 gp track? Or am I missing some other reason to make this a luxury item either than its ability to break the entire economy of a nation?

Thanks everyone!

[J-H]

You're the DM. Set the price however you want. Maybe they're extra- cheap because there's high demand and someone is pumping them out?
Maybe they can get a quest to go find something that someone wants in trade, without GP ever entering into it?

[Unoriginal]

Hey Playground!

In my Eberron game, we've got an aquatic elf rogue/battlemaster with dreams of becoming a pirate queen! When we made the character, she picked out a decanter of endless (sea)water as a starting item so that she could adventure with the rest of our non-aquatic team without any issues.

She's recently gotten a few other sea elves to help out the party, and are going to be acting as supplementary crew/muscle aboard the Lyrandar airship they take to various places, woo!

This has led the party to ask if they could find another decanter of endless (sea)water to buy from a place in Xen'drik that might carry it. PCs spending gold on characters other than themselves? How lovely!

I go, "Makes sense to me! There's loads of aquatic elves and sahuagin in Stormreach that would benefit from that item, and it makes sense someone would make those/retrieve them from nearby ruins. Let me just look up the price in the Sane Magical Items PDF and we get----135,000 GP...."

They do not have that, they are level 7. And if I DID make the item worth that much and able to be traded, they should IMMEDIATELY get the pirate to pawn it for even a fifth of the price and make more money than I've given them during their most recent dungeon crawl.

I'll admit that Sane Magic Items Prices isn't my bible, but I totally understand why Saidoro put that price tag on there: if your campaign has a semi-decent sized desert town in it's world, you now own it, and should stop adventuring to make back your 135,000 GP several times over.

What I'm wondering though, is saying that the decanter only makes endless salt-water enough of a nerf to bump it down to an affordable cost? If so, does making it cost the usual NonCombat But Super Useful Pricetag of 1,000 gp track? Or am I missing some other reason to make this a luxury item either than its ability to break the entire economy of a nation?

Thanks everyone!

The Sane Magical Items PDF is poorly thought out and its price are nowhere near sane.

It's an Uncommon magic item, so the Decanter is worth between 100 and 600 gp, plus the fees spent to localize someone ready to trade it.

Of course the owner may demand more money depending on the circumstances, or ask for something else than gold in exchange. But 135000 gp is ridiculous. It's over *six* times the maximum it costs to learn how to craft such a Decanter.



I'll admit that Sane Magic Items Prices isn't my bible, but I totally understand why Saidoro put that price tag on there: if your campaign has a semi-decent sized desert town in it's world, you now own it, and should stop adventuring to make back your 135,000 GP several times over.

If there is a semi-decent sized desert town in your world, it already has water, and someone showing up and declaring they own the town because they have a magic item will be ignored at best.

[Sigreid]

What is the basis of the prices in Sane Magic Item pdf? Sounds like it's basically, "I don't think anyone should ever be able to afford anything and did I mention never ever."

[DragonBaneDM]

What is the basis of the prices in Sane Magic Item pdf? Sounds like it's basically, "I don't think anyone should ever be able to afford anything and did I mention never ever."

In my experience, it's worked out most of the time! Things like lower tier weapons and potions cost well within what an average party collecting hoards from gnolls and trolls can pay, and things that have NO business being Uncommon (looking at you, Winged Boots!) are appropriately priced up. By the time my groups are raiding the troves of fire giants and wyrms, they're not really buying their gear upgrades, they're finding them. Sane Prices is more a way for me to take a look at what things like a Firebreath Potion might cost in my world, and I find a fair bit of wisdom in what's listed in the Gamebreaking Items section.

Obviously I don't agree with everything, or else this post wouldn't exist. I'll admit that the longer I play, the more and more I see discrepancies (and some outright typos), and the more I fall in line with Unoriginal's thoughts. When I was just starting to play around with the idea that maybe folks should be able to buy and trade in magic items in my campaigns, this was what I had. I guess I keep it around because I haven't found a better alternative for my DMing style, and using the WOTC system of prices-by-rarity is laughable. 500 gp for a Decanter, totally! A Sentinel Shield? Get outta town.

If anyone has been using a better list of magic items by cost, I'd love to see it! This PDF is getting long in the tooth, and while it was a perfectly useable starting place for me, I'm really still using it cause I haven't seen an alternative that I can vibe with.

[JackPhoenix]

What is the basis of the prices in Sane Magic Item pdf? Sounds like it's basically, "I don't think anyone should ever be able to afford anything and did I mention never ever."

In most cases "whatever 3.5e price was".

[sithlordnergal]

...That price is insane, literally insane. I've looked over that "Totally Sane MAgic ITem Prices" and I can't disagree with it hard enough. Can you imagine trying to sell an item with those prices?

So, for me I generally price my items this way:

Uncommon- 400gp to 1000gp

Rare- 4000 to 10,000gp

Very Rare- 14,000 to 25,000

Legendary- Cannot be bought, can be sold for 50,000 and above.

[Waazraath]

You're the DM. Set the price however you want. Maybe they're extra- cheap because there's high demand and someone is pumping them out?
Maybe they can get a quest to go find something that someone wants in trade, without GP ever entering into it?

This, but also: this 'sane magic item prices' is a (pretty controversial) homebrew - why on earth would you need help 'nerfing' it? It is homebrew, just ignore it. There is no nerf. Even if it was an official rule you'd chose to ignore, that's the whole setup of 5e: adjust to what fits your campaign, and what helps your game.

[mistajames]

The Sane Magic Items list is a much, much better measure of cost-benefit than the RAW that the devs put into place. IMO, the 5e devs did a terrible job with magic item balanccing in 5e.

Yes, we can argue over the value of some items (especially non-combat items), but the values given in general are just far more accurate to the efficiency of the items. Also, SMI is intended to completely supplant the RAW rarity-based item value system - relying on Xanathar's crafting-by-rarity rules is kind of missing the point.

How on Earth is Mithral Armor, Boots of Jumping, Fochlucan Bandlore and Winged Boots all uncommon? Giving a level 3 Valor Bard Mithral Armor is kind of cool. Giving them a Fochulucan Bandlore is more than doubling their spell slots. Giving them Winged Boots is basically giving them at-will flight (funny point - a Potion of Flying is somehow "Very Rare" by comparison).

Similarly, look at Horn of Blasting, Chime of Opening, Cube of Force and Daern's Instant Fortress (Rare). How exactly does a Staff of Power and a Potion of Supreme Healing (Very Rare) have the same value again?

There is really no rhyme or reason to the DMG rarity of items.

[KorvinStarmast]

The Sane Magical Items PDF is poorly thought out and its price are nowhere near sane. Thank you: I was feeling like "the man in the wilderness" on this. (I get the idea that someone very into WBL created that).

[bendking]

It's an Uncommon magic item, so the Decanter is worth between 100 and 600 gp, plus the fees spent to localize someone ready to trade it.

By that logic, Winged Boots should also cost 100-600 GP, which is ludicrously low for such a game-changing item.
In other words, the pricing of magic items in the DMG is broken, and using it in your campaign is a recipe for disaster.


The Sane Magic Items list is a much, much better measure of cost-benefit than the RAW that the devs put into place. IMO, the 5e devs did a terrible job with magic item balanccing in 5e.

Yes, we can argue over the value of some items (especially non-combat items), but the values given in general are just far more accurate to the efficiency of the items. Also, SMI is intended to completely supplant the RAW rarity-based item value system - relying on Xanathar's crafting-by-rarity rules is kind of missing the point.

How on Earth is Mithral Armor, Boots of Jumping, Fochlucan Bandlore and Winged Boots all uncommon? Giving a level 3 Valor Bard Mithral Armor is kind of cool. Giving them a Fochulucan Bandlore is more than doubling their spell slots. Giving them Winged Boots is basically giving them at-will flight (funny point - a Potion of Flying is somehow "Very Rare" by comparison).

Similarly, look at Horn of Blasting, Chime of Opening, Cube of Force and Daern's Instant Fortress (Rare). How exactly does a Staff of Power and a Potion of Supreme Healing (Very Rare) have the same value again?

There is really no rhyme or reason to the DMG rarity of items.

This. The Sane Magic Items PDF isn't perfect, but it is undoubtedly better than what we have in the DMG.

[Sigreid]

By that logic, Winged Boots should also cost 100-600 GP, which is ludicrously low for such a game-changing item.
In other words, the pricing of magic items in the DMG is broken, and using it in your campaign is a recipe for disaster.

Well, if you think about it; rarity doesn't have anything to do with power (or shouldn't). Rarity should be literally how hard they are to find, which would affect price based on supply/demand. If Winged Boots are listed as only uncommon, that would imply that at some point in the world history someone was making a lot of them. So many they aren't seen in every store, but aren't something no one has ever seen either.

[Unoriginal]

The Sane Magic Items list is a much, much better measure of cost-benefit than the RAW that the devs put into place.

They're magic items, not stocks in a company.


By that logic, Winged Boots should also cost 100-600 GP, which is ludicrously low for such a game-changing item.
In other words, the pricing of magic items in the DMG is broken, and using it in your campaign is a recipe for disaster.



This. The Sane Magic Items PDF isn't perfect, but it is undoubtedly better than what we have in the DMG.

Even if you loath the prices found in the Xanathar's/DMG, the "Sane Magic Items PDF" is just as bad.

"It's an alternative to something bad" doesn't make it good.


Well, if you think about it; rarity doesn't have anything to do with power (or shouldn't). Rarity should be literally how hard they are to find, which would affect price based on supply/demand. If Winged Boots are listed as only uncommon, that would imply that at some point in the world history someone was making a lot of them. So many they aren't seen in every store, but aren't something no one has ever seen either.

That is indeed correct, magic item rarity is not strictly linked to their power. Although it is harder to make powerful items, so indirectly it can still be an indicator.

[ProsecutorGodot]

All I'm seeing here is "if my non spellcasters want items that replicate spells they need the wealth of a small nation"

Conquer a desert with a decanter of endless water? Create food and water, or just create water.

Winged Boots? Fly, 3rd level spell.

If you're charging them this fee for magic items, I would hope you're offering similarly "sane" prices for a magic casters services. Does the party have a full caster? They should retire into nobility.

[KorvinStarmast]

By that logic, Winged Boots should also cost 100-600 GP, which is ludicrously low for such a game-changing item.
In other words, the pricing of magic items in the DMG is broken, and using it in your campaign is a recipe for disaster.
No it isn't. Magic items are not generally for sale. That's in the DMG as well. There's a neat addition in Xanathar's that has to do with "how long it takes to find someone with one" and "complications" that add some depth to that general concept.

This isn't a video game.

If you're charging them this fee for magic items, I would hope you're offering similarly "sane" prices for a magic casters services. Does the party have a full caster? They should retire into nobility. D&D 5e's core competency is as an adventuring game. With magic. As an economics emulator it, like all other editions, is neither designed that way nor even rational as a basis for the attempt.

If the players want to stop adventuring, beyond various down time 'between adventures' activities, then the game of D&D 5e is likely over.

Also: if the PCs get to rich, there are thieves guilds in the game world to take care of that problem. :smallbiggrin:

What I'm wondering though, is saying that the decanter only makes endless salt-water enough of a nerf to bump it down to an affordable cost? If so, does making it cost the usual NonCombat But Super Useful Pricetag of 1,000 gp track? Or am I missing some other reason to make this a luxury item either than its ability to break the entire economy of a nation? What economy? Did you construct one ex nihilo? Gold in D&D is a game token, not an economic system.

[stoutstien]

No it isn't. Magic items are not generally for sale. That's in the DMG as well. There's a neat addition in Xanathar's that has to do with "how long it takes to find someone with one" and "complications" that add some depth to that general concept.

This isn't a video game.

Not to mention concentration free flight would be a much higher level spell to begin with. Combined with the super effective toggle it has so you can use it when you need it and not waste it when you don't it would be at least a 7th level spell of not higher.

[Unoriginal]

All I'm seeing here is "if my non spellcasters want items that replicate spells they need the wealth of a small nation"

Conquer a desert with a decanter of endless water? Create food and water, or just create water.

Winged Boots? Fly, 3rd level spell.

If you're charging them this fee for magic items, I would hope you're offering similarly "sane" prices for a magic casters services. Does the party have a full caster? They should retire into nobility.


There are several people on this very subforum who argue that unironically. Generally while also declaring martials can't do anything worthwhile.


Winged Boots aren't even particularly great. They require Attunement, and don't change your speed. Having access to 3D movement is nice but far from fight-breaking.

[Sigreid]

No it isn't. Magic items are not generally for sale. That's in the DMG as well. There's a neat addition in Xanathar's that has to do with "how long it takes to find someone with one" and "complications" that add some depth to that general concept.



I've always interpreted this as them trying to say that you're not obligated to give out tons of magic items just to be able to continue to play the game. Something that has been a complaint in earlier editions from some corners.

[stack]

If you want a cheap utility item, remove functionality from the decanter. If you are using it for comfort/mitigation of environmental disadvantages, you don't need the 30 gal/rnd geyser function. Aquatic creatures would want enough flow to breath and/or stay sufficiently moist, which I expect would be significantly less than even the 1 gallon flow rate from the normal decanter. Then price according to what makes sense in the setting and for your group. If the item is largely for fluff purposes (convenience for aquatic elf followers/hirelings outside of water), it doesn't need to cost much. You could even assume such creatures recruited in that kind of location would just have them; if they aren't gaining any advantage over just hiring a different species, then you don't NEED a mechanical cost.

If the fact that they are aquatic elves grants a mechanical advantage somewhat regularly, then a cost to mitigate their disadvantages is appropriate.

[Unoriginal]

I've always interpreted this as them trying to say that you're not obligated to give out tons of magic items just to be able to continue to play the game. Something that has been a complaint in earlier editions from some corners.

I mean I'm pretty sure that they actually say it in the books, they don't have to try implying it.

[mistajames]

There seems to be this bizarre attachment to RAW here that I feel is totally unwarranted. Players need to be able to rely on RAW and RAI as they relate to their characters, so they can make meaningful decisions, but this doesn't apply to the DM. Just because a principle or rule made it into a published 5e book (or even Core) doesn't make it well thought-out or helpful. I only really care about what makes my games better - that a rule is or isn't RAW doesn't actually matter to me at all in building encounters or the game world.

"Item Rarity" is absolutely useless to me as a DM. As a DM, any item is as common or as rare as I want/need it to be.

It is far more useful to me (as a DM) to try to determine how powerful/useful items are when compared to each other. Why? Because the DM is responsible for building encounters and a campaign world, and they need to be able to account for the impact different magic items have on encounters and the game world. SMI does a far better job of this than the DMG. Again, not a "perfect" job, but a far better job.

[Sigreid]

I mean I'm pretty sure that they actually say it in the books, they don't have to try implying it.

Oh, I'm just of the opinion that they aren't always good at saying what they mean in a simple and concise way.

[KorvinStarmast]

I've always interpreted this as them trying to say that you're not obligated to give out tons of magic items just to be able to continue to play the game. Something that has been a complaint in earlier editions from some corners. Yeah, similar take.

Oh, I'm just of the opinion that they aren't always good at saying what they mean in a simple and concise way. You can say that again. Attack, attack, melee attack, melee weapon attack, two different things with the same name (two weapon fighting) and DM inspiration / Bardic Inspiration - why use the same word? MY players in one game world still get confused about which is which ... granted, they only look at the books when it's almost game night, but one of them played bard to level 7 and even he is a bit off focus now that he's playing a barbarian.

[noob]

Hey Playground!

In my Eberron game, we've got an aquatic elf rogue/battlemaster with dreams of becoming a pirate queen! When we made the character, she picked out a decanter of endless (sea)water as a starting item so that she could adventure with the rest of our non-aquatic team without any issues.

She's recently gotten a few other sea elves to help out the party, and are going to be acting as supplementary crew/muscle aboard the Lyrandar airship they take to various places, woo!

This has led the party to ask if they could find another decanter of endless (sea)water to buy from a place in Xen'drik that might carry it. PCs spending gold on characters other than themselves? How lovely!

I go, "Makes sense to me! There's loads of aquatic elves and sahuagin in Stormreach that would benefit from that item, and it makes sense someone would make those/retrieve them from nearby ruins. Let me just look up the price in the Sane Magical Items PDF and we get----135,000 GP...."

They do not have that, they are level 7. And if I DID make the item worth that much and able to be traded, they should IMMEDIATELY get the pirate to pawn it for even a fifth of the price and make more money than I've given them during their most recent dungeon crawl.

I'll admit that Sane Magic Items Prices isn't my bible, but I totally understand why Saidoro put that price tag on there: if your campaign has a semi-decent sized desert town in it's world, you now own it, and should stop adventuring to make back your 135,000 GP several times over.

What I'm wondering though, is saying that the decanter only makes endless salt-water enough of a nerf to bump it down to an affordable cost? If so, does making it cost the usual NonCombat But Super Useful Pricetag of 1,000 gp track? Or am I missing some other reason to make this a luxury item either than its ability to break the entire economy of a nation?

Thanks everyone!

You do realise that agriculture is a low value business (you can buy 1lb of wheat for 1 copper) and that there is other ways to create water if all you need is to drink?(like clerics, druids and people who take the right feat being able to create 45 litres of water per day or more if they have more than one spell slot)
So in the end in a desert you would need literally years and to convince thousands of peasants to work for you to restabilise the cost of 135000 gp because each gold coin is a hundred copper coins so with the cost of one decanter you can buy more than 6000 tons of wheat.
You are better off making those peasant work outside a desert and buy land outside of the desert.

[Avonar]

I mean there can't really be standard magic item prices. Every campaign is different, every DM is different. Price items according to how much wealth you give the characters. If you mean an item to be purchasable, put it in their price range. If you mean for them to have to save up or work for it, make it higher. No point in using standard values that don't take your campaign into account.

[KorvinStarmast]

I mean there can't really be standard magic item prices. Every campaign is different, every DM is different. Price items according to how much wealth you give the characters. If you mean an item to be purchasable, put it in their price range. If you mean for them to have to save up or work for it, make it higher. No point in using standard values that don't take your campaign into account. Bravo, and well said.

[Thunderous Mojo]

There seems to be this bizarre attachment to RAW here that I feel is totally unwarranted....
....."Item Rarity" is absolutely useless to me as a DM. As a DM, any item is as common or as rare as I want/need it to be.
I mean this with no ill intent, but it seems your own perceptions are being shaped by this very same attachment/Attunement to RAW.

If the item rarity guidelines in the DMG hold no value for yourself, then of course ditch the rules, and run the game how you and your table want.


It is far more useful to me (as a DM) to try to determine how powerful/useful items are when compared to each other. Why? Because the DM is responsible for building encounters and a campaign world, and they need to be able to account for the impact different magic items have on encounters and the game world. SMI does a far better job of this than the DMG. Again, not a "perfect" job, but a far better job.

No official book is going to match play at any particular table perfectly. It is, and always has been up to the DM to balance their game. In an aquatic game, Boots of Flying are mainly irrelevant. Giving a 1st level character a Potion of Supreme Healing, without home brewing 'sipping' rules...is just a waste.

If this SMI book does a better job of representing your particular preference, then I am glad you found it. That is the whole point of Third Party Products..a 3PP can operate from assumptions, that are more narrowly defined then what one is going to find in the DMG.

[Kurt Kurageous]

If you want a cheap utility item, remove functionality from the decanter. If you are using it for comfort/mitigation of environmental disadvantages, you don't need the 30 gal/rnd geyser function. Aquatic creatures would want enough flow to breath and/or stay sufficiently moist, which I expect would be significantly less than even the 1 gallon flow rate from the normal decanter.

To put this in mundane context:

A fire hose throws 100 gal/minute (10 rounds). The geyser is 3x more than a full on firehose.

A water cannon is said to throw 2000 gal/minute, or 200gal/round. Not that it runs for a minute... but a one second pulse producing a 33.3 gal is a missile of 267 pounds of water. Now you know why it knocks down people the way you see it on youtube. And yes, it breaks bones.

1gal/round = 12 gpm is the average maximum output of a garden hose.

So I'm thinking firehose as the upper limit you want at 10 gal/round.

[mistajames]

I mean this with no ill intent, but it seems your own perceptions are being shaped by this very same attachment/Attunement to RAW.

If the item rarity guidelines in the DMG hold no value for yourself, then of course ditch the rules, and run the game how you and your table want.

No official book is going to match play at any particular table perfectly. It is, and always has been up to the DM to balance their game. In an aquatic game, Boots of Flying are mainly irrelevant. Giving a 1st level character a Potion of Supreme Healing, without home brewing 'sipping' rules...is just a waste.

If this SMI book does a better job of representing your particular preference, then I am glad you found it. That is the whole point of Third Party Products..a 3PP can operate from assumptions, that are more narrowly defined then what one is going to find in the DMG.

I want to use sources which are actually going to make my job of running the game easier. We could all ditch the D&D system altogether and start over from scratch. We don't do this because the rules generally help facilitate the game and ensure that everyone is on the same page. The rules are useful in this regard.

The magic item rules set out in the DMG, apart from the magic item tables (though I prefer custom tables as well) is not very useful in actually running a D&D game, in my view. The "con" responses that people have posted basically break down into 2 camps: 1: the "efficiency =/= rarity" camp, and 2: the "SMI is not an accurate way to balance magic items" camp.

Neither of these approaches helps any DMs assess which magic items they should be giving out to their PCs. Approach 1 attempts to side-step the issue entirely (i.e. - "everything is arbitrary") and Approach 2 doesn't even assess whether SMI is better than the DMG guidelines, only that SMI "isn't accurate". Again, none of this helps anyone determine how to dole out magic items in a way that is fun and engaging for everyone, and to help a DM in balancing encounters where people have these items.

Hence my criticism.

[Mellack]

How much salt water do they need to produce for your campaign? The Alchemy Jug can make 12 gallons a day, and that pdf has it for just 6000 GP. If you wanted to build off that, you could make a cheaper one that only made the salt water instead of the variety the jug makes. Or you could keep the price but have it make greater volume but only of salt water. Both options seem reasonable to me.

[Thunderous Mojo]

The magic item rules set out in the DMG, apart from the magic item tables (though I prefer custom tables as well) is not very useful in actually running a D&D game, in my view.
Cool. I appreciate you sharing your opinion.

The 5e DMG is very clear that the "default" assumption is that magic items are "not for sale". It then further explains that if a DM decides to not use this "default" assumption, the Magic Item Rarity provides some guidelines on the cost associated with the sale of magic items.

Otherwise, the Magic Item rarity is a rough gauge of an items "level appropriateness"...(e.g. 1st level adventurers typically don't have nor find Rings of Invisibility). AD&D had no such guidelines...one either randomly rolled for treasure or chose it, and only experience from actual play, informed your decisions.

When you state that "Magic Item Rarity is useless to you as a DM", I interpret your statement as meaning that you have such an understanding of your own game that whatever item you elect to have available to the PCs you can "balance" the play with the item.

The rules suggest not giving an Oathbow to a 5th level PC, if you chose to do it, it is because you have it handled. Again, cool, and Cheers to That!🍾
Someone DM-ing for the first time, or creating their first campaign from whole cloth, may actually appreciate some guidance regarding this exact issue...which the DMG provides.

'Accidentally' handing out overpowered items has lead to many a campaign demise.

You stated you wanted more guidance for power levels between items in the same rarity category. Again, that is hard to do, as this depends on the particulars of a campaign.

I think most people can "eyeball" the fact that a Staff of Power is generally more powerful than a Potion of Supreme Healing. Of course not every campaign will have a Wizard or a Sorcerer or a Warlock in it. The DM has to be prepared to make such judgements, or failing that learn from missteps.

The "School of Hard Knocks" really is the best education for a DM, in my opinion.

Guidance from books helps, and I can certainly empathize with wanting more guidance that can directly help you specifically. Alas, the guidance provided in the DMG should primarily help those with the weakest grasp on how to make "balanced" choices.

If the 3PP book works better for you, that is great!
Decanters of Endless Water, Immovable Rods, Sovereign Glue, and Universal Solvent all are "low powered" items that have a penchant for causing mischief...(especially when used together😃). Typically this requires the conjunction of a clever player, the right item, and the right circumstances.

130K for a Decanter of Endless Water, means in effect the item is banned. There may not have been 130K worth or number of coinage in existence in England when Issac Newton was in charge of the English Mint. That is a gob smacking amount of currency to assume for economies based on coins of precious metals...especially pre-industrial ones.

[Xetheral]

I think it's the magic item creation rules on the DMG where rarity really starts to fall apart. Presumably Sovereign Glue and Universal Solvent are Legendary rarity simply because there isn't much demand for them. But under the magical item creation rules, one bottle of either one requires 250,000 gold and 80,000 hours to produce. It's hard to imagine why any doses exist at all if they are that expensive and time-consuming to make.

I suppose the legendary rarity for these items could be a feedback effect: they were expensive to produce, so no one produced them, so they became rarer, and thus even more expensive to produce, until eventually they became merely the stuff of legends and almost impossible to produce. But a game world that operates on such a principle is really only good for a farcical campaign.

[Sigreid]

I'd actually probably be down to buy a WoTC book that was just magic item formulas.

[Randel]

There's also the Alchemy Jug (https://www.aidedd.org/dnd/om.php?vo=alchemy-jug) that can produce 12 gallons of salt water a day along with all sorts of other stuff like honey, beer, wine, mayonnaise, etc. It's an uncommon item which the Sane Magic Item Price thing lists as costing 6,000 gp, although I could easily see it being priced under 1,000 gp since it's utility is situational and not for combat.

If you're running a ship, I'd wholeheartedly recommend making alchemy jugs cheap enough that the players can get more than one. Get some barrels, tubs, buckets, etc to store seawater for the elves and use the jugs to keep them filled. Then, if you've got enough seawater then the jugs can produce stuff like beer, honey, vinegar, etc to help keep people fed.

[Magic Myrmidon]

https://amp.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/b0afyy/magic_item_prices_for_the_sane_and_discerning/

I also had problems with Sane Magic Item prices. I found this spreadsheet for an alternative, and it's been great. Having the prices side by side also allows me to decide whether either price is reasonable, too.

[Bardon]

Just to be clear, if I understand correctly they want another Endless Decanter of Seawater not fresh. If so, even if you're wedded to the Sane guide I'd definitely drop the price because it doesn't produce potable water, so many of the economy-breaking issues described don't apply.

[stack]

It is Eberron, so utility magic is common. There isn't a setting reason to make it expensive, assume its function is reduced to what is needed for aquatic elf comfort.

If it is providing benefits that don't impact the party, there is no reason it needs to have a significant cost.

[Unoriginal]

I think it's the magic item creation rules on the DMG where rarity really starts to fall apart. Presumably Sovereign Glue and Universal Solvent are Legendary rarity simply because there isn't much demand for them. But under the magical item creation rules, one bottle of either one requires 250,000 gold and 80,000 hours to produce. It's hard to imagine why any doses exist at all if they are that expensive and time-consuming to make.

I suppose the legendary rarity for these items could be a feedback effect: they were expensive to produce, so no one produced them, so they became rarer, and thus even more expensive to produce, until eventually they became merely the stuff of legends and almost impossible to produce. But a game world that operates on such a principle is really only good for a farcical campaign.

Sovereign Glue literally requires a Wish to remove, if you don't have Universal Solvent. It's pretty Legendary to me.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Sovereign Glue literally requires a Wish to remove, if you don't have Universal Solvent. It's pretty Legendary to me.

Oft forgotten fact, Oil of Etherealness also removes it.

Which might be why Universal Solvent is legendary... Who would go through all the trouble to make that if a more expedient and less costly alchemical solution (that is useful in other ways to boot) already exists?

[Xetheral]

Sovereign Glue literally requires a Wish to remove, if you don't have Universal Solvent. It's pretty Legendary to me.

Sure, the bond it creates is nearly indestructible, but it doesn't provide any additional strength to the bonded objects. Unless you're bonding adamantine or artifacts it's pretty trivial to cut away the glued surface and then cast Mending to repair the damage from your (literal) hack job.

In other words, having a bond stronger than the objects it is bonding isn't particularly useful, so who cares whether the bond is indestructible rather than merely strong enough to not be the point of failure? Sure, one could write a campaign where there is a need to permanently bond two artifacts to each other, but without a ton of contrivance Sovereign Glue has about the same level of utility in the game world as epoxy. So, it's useful (particularly if non-magic adhesives are limited in the campaign world), but not particularly valuable. No one is going to make (or commission others to make) a bottle of it unless either they need it themselves, or they think they can sell it for a profit. At a quarter-million gold and 80,000 hours per bottle (plus labor costs, for a commission), it's hard to see why anyone ever bothered making any of it at all. It's literally a career's worth of work (27 years!) for a spellcaster to make a single bottle of adhesive that in practical terms isn't significantly more useful than what can be found in any modern drugstore.

[Coidzor]

Just to be clear, if I understand correctly they want another Endless Decanter of Seawater not fresh. If so, even if you're wedded to the Sane guide I'd definitely drop the price because it doesn't produce potable water, so many of the economy-breaking issues described don't apply.

There are still ways to break the economy that can be achieved by being able to produce a lot of salt water, but you have to work harder because evaporating salt water into salt takes time/energy/space and harvesting it requires labor, and so there are more moving parts to the scheme.

Admittedly, salt is 5 cp per pound when it was once 5 gp per pound or sp per pound in previous editions, which has tended to cut down on discussions of such schemes.

[Xetheral]

There are still ways to break the economy that can be achieved by being able to produce a lot of salt water, but you have to work harder because evaporating salt water into salt takes time/energy/space and harvesting it requires labor, and so there are more moving parts to the scheme.

Admittedly, salt is 5 cp per pound when it was once 5 gp per pound or sp per pound in previous editions, which has tended to cut down on discussions of such schemes.

A Decanter of Endless Saltwater is also still good for powering perpetual motion machines, albeit with a higher cost in replacing components damaged by corrosion.

[Sigreid]

A Decanter of Endless Saltwater is also still good for powering perpetual motion machines, albeit with a higher cost in replacing components damaged by corrosion.

THinking a ship powered by a paddle wheel?

[Fable Wright]

https://amp.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/b0afyy/magic_item_prices_for_the_sane_and_discerning/

I also had problems with Sane Magic Item prices. I found this spreadsheet for an alternative, and it's been great. Having the prices side by side also allows me to decide whether either price is reasonable, too.

Decanter of Endless water: Is it worth... 135,000gp, or 300gp?
Weapon of Warning: 60,000gp, or 400?

Honestly, in the end, I'm inclined to go for the Discerning Merchant's Price Guide valuations. Having a holy avenger worth 165,000gp and a decanter of endless water at 135,000gp is... beyond nuts. When an extraordinarily powerful weapon, a +3 bow/sword/whatever, is priced at 16k? It makes no sense whatsoever.

[Xetheral]

THinking a ship powered by a paddle wheel?

As one of many possible options, yes.

[stack]

THinking a ship powered by a paddle wheel?
Paddle wheel is an unnecessary step. Mount it below the waterline and let it push you directly. You just need a way to vector the thrust.

[Sigreid]

Paddle wheel is an unnecessary step. Mount it below the waterline and let it push you directly. You just need a way to vector the thrust.

I don't think that would work with larger vessels. /shrug

[Xetheral]

I don't think that would work with larger vessels. /shrug

The amount of kinetic* energy created by the Decanter is fixed. Whether you mount it as a waterjet or use it indirectly on a paddlewheel (or turbine), you get similar maximum power, modified for any efficiency losses. The waterjet method has fewer mechanical losses (from e.g. friction of the wheel), and so should be slightly more efficient than the paddlewheel. On the other hand, by gearing the paddlewheel, one would get a lot more control over the boat's acceleration.

*The Decanter creates other types of energy too. The easiest to access would be gravitational potential energy--just put the Decanter on a mountain and use the height to create additional water pressure. One could also potentially tap the thermal energy of the water, although the method would depend on whether the Decanter produces water at a fixed temperature or at ambient temperature. By far the most energy produced by the Decanter is in the rest-mass energy of the new water, but good luck trying to access that.

[stack]

I don't think that would work with larger vessels. /shrug

Is spraying onto a paddle wheel going to transfer the kinetic energy move efficiently than spraying directly into the water?

It can push a 200 pound object 15 feet in 6 seconds. Can't get precise numbers out of this, since it also pushes a 1 ounce object the same distance and we have no numbers for the coefficient of friction (though large volumes of water will help reduce that).

Could come at it from the other side. 30 gallons/round = 300 gallons/minute. It shoots 30 feet regardless of orientation, so call that 30 feet of head. Specific gravity is 1. Efficiency is 1 (magic!)

Pwhp = q h SG / (3960 μ)

where

Pwhp = water horsepower (hp)

q = flow (gal/min)

h = head (ft)

SG = 1 for water Specific Gravity

μ = pump efficiency (decimal value)

300*30*1/3960 = 2.27 horsepower. So the power potential, regardless of how you employ it, is useful but limited. Any way you employ this power will be inefficient, so lets call it about 2 hp. Could run small boat.

Edit: Xetheral makes good points about gravity and temperature. Since it apparently comes out as liquid, even if it emerges at ambient temperatures, the latent heat required to change state in extreme environments could still be useful.

[Sigreid]

The amount of kinetic* energy created by the Decanter is fixed. Whether you mount it as a waterjet or use it indirectly on a paddlewheel (or turbine), you get similar maximum power, modified for any efficiency losses. The waterjet method has fewer mechanical losses (from e.g. friction of the wheel), and so should be slightly more efficient than the paddlewheel. On the other hand, by gearing the paddlewheel, one would get a lot more control over the boat's acceleration.

*The Decanter creates other types of energy too. The easiest to access would be gravitational potential energy--just put the Decanter on a mountain and use the height to create additional water pressure. One could also potentially tap the thermal energy of the water, although the method would depend on whether the Decanter produces water at a fixed temperature or at ambient temperature. By far the most energy produced by the Decanter is in the rest-mass energy of the new water, but good luck trying to access that.


Is spraying onto a paddle wheel going to transfer the kinetic energy move efficiently than spraying directly into the water?

It can push a 200 pound object 15 feet in 6 seconds. Can't get precise numbers out of this, since it also pushes a 1 ounce object the same distance and we have no numbers for the coefficient of friction (though large volumes of water will help reduce that).

Could come at it from the other side. 30 gallons/round = 300 gallons/minute. It shoots 30 feet regardless of orientation, so call that 30 feet of head. Specific gravity is 1. Efficiency is 1 (magic!)

Pwhp = q h SG / (3960 μ)

where

Pwhp = water horsepower (hp)

q = flow (gal/min)

h = head (ft)

SG = 1 for water Specific Gravity

μ = pump efficiency (decimal value)

300*30*1/3960 = 2.27 horsepower. So the power potential, regardless of how you employ it, is useful but limited. Any way you employ this power will be inefficient, so lets call it about 2 hp. Could run small boat.

Edit: Xetheral makes good points about gravity and temperature. Since it apparently comes out as liquid, even if it emerges at ambient temperatures, the latent heat required to change state in extreme environments could still be useful.

I was actually thinking in terms of water weight built up as a wheel section fills.

[Xetheral]

Edit: Xetheral makes good points about gravity and temperature. Since it apparently comes out as liquid, even if it emerges at ambient temperatures, the latent heat required to change state in extreme environments could still be useful.

Coming out at ambient would probably be even easier to use than at room temperature. It's easier to change the ambient temperature of the Decanter than it is to move the Decanter to an environment where ambient is noticably different than room temp. And then you get phase-change shenanigans on top. :)

EDIT:
I was actually thinking in terms of water weight built up as a wheel section fills.

That could work, but even with perfect efficiency you'd need a 9.10 meter diameter wheel to get up to the same 2.27 horsepower that stack calculated for the waterjet. That's an impractically large wheel for most boats. But the taller the wheel the more horsepower is available (since basically you're extracting gravitational potential energy), so you're right that for the biggest boats this method would work better than a waterjet. You'd be wasting the kinetic energy, though, so a hybrid approach with a small pressure-driven turbine located above the giant wheel that drains into the buckets would be more efficient.

Edit Edit: Although, the mass of the wheel will increase (at least) with the square of its diameter, whereas the available horsepower only increases linearly with the diameter. So depending on the materials the boat is made out of and the displacement of the rest of the boat, at some point you'll start to get diminishing speed returns from a larger wheel.

[JoeJ]

Paddle wheel is an unnecessary step. Mount it below the waterline and let it push you directly. You just need a way to vector the thrust.

The decanter won't push anything weighing more than 200 pounds, so that will only work on very small vessels. And even then you'd have to point the stream at the boat rather than the water, because there doesn't appear from the description to be any recoil.

[Xetheral]

The decanter won't push anything weighing more than 200 pounds, so that will only work on very small vessels. And even then you'd have to point the stream at the boat rather than the water, because there doesn't appear from the description to be any recoil.

Interesting interpretation. It's certainly possible: the Decanter is already violating conservation of energy in a huge way, so maybe it also violates conservation of momentum too. Of course, there is an easy workaround: just have the Decanter vent into an internal chamber on the ship that itself is ducted out the back. Also, interpreting the Decanter to violate conservation of momentum opens up another can of worms: it's already got unlimited delta-V as a rocket engine, but if you ignore conservation of momentum you can use it to make a reactionless drive.

[stack]

No pressure limitations either; could make an interesting hydraulic system.

edit: engineers + magic items = trouble

[Sigreid]

Coming out at ambient would probably be even easier to use than at room temperature. It's easier to change the ambient temperature of the Decanter than it is to move the Decanter to an environment where ambient is noticably different than room temp. And then you get phase-change shenanigans on top. :)

EDIT:

That could work, but even with perfect efficiency you'd need a 9.10 meter diameter wheel to get up to the same 2.27 horsepower that stack calculated for the waterjet. That's an impractically large wheel for most boats. But the taller the wheel the more horsepower is available (since basically you're extracting gravitational potential energy), so you're right that for the biggest boats this method would work better than a waterjet. You'd be wasting the kinetic energy, though, so a hybrid approach with a small pressure-driven turbine located above the giant wheel that drains into the buckets would be more efficient.

Edit Edit: Although, the mass of the wheel will increase (at least) with the square of its diameter, whereas the available horsepower only increases linearly with the diameter. So depending on the materials the boat is made out of and the displacement of the rest of the boat, at some point you'll start to get diminishing speed returns from a larger wheel.

That is what I was thinking, but I also think Animate Object would be a better way of propelling a ship.

[Xetheral]

No pressure limitations either; could make an interesting hydraulic system.

edit: engineers + magic items = trouble

Excellent point. This (https://what-if.xkcd.com/147/) seems apropos, although more for weaponizing the Decanter than for hydraulics. Just substitute a smaller straw to keep the water's velocity relativistic. No limitations on how to attach the straw to the Decanter--any clamp that can survive 200 lbs of force will work under JoeJ's interpretation. :)

With a small-enough straw, we can get the kinetic energy up around the rest-mass energy when the water gets to 0.9c. That's in the neighborhood of 10^19 joules every six seconds, and unlike the rest-mass energy it will be in a usable form (assuming you have a use for ultra-high-energy plasma anyway).

Hmm, one difficulty will be what to make the straw out of. We don't want it to vaporize instantly. A Wall of Force with overlapping 10' x 10' panels should work nicely, leaving a square hole of arbitrarily small size in the middle. Since the wall is immobile and the Decanter doesn't experience recoil, we don't even need a clamp.

[stack]

There are people who DON"T have a use for ultra-high-energy plasma?
:smallbiggrin:

[JoeJ]

Excellent point. This (https://what-if.xkcd.com/147/) seems apropos, although more for weaponizing the Decanter than for hydraulics. Just substitute a smaller straw to keep the water's velocity relativistic. No limitations on how to attach the straw to the Decanter--any clamp that can survive 200 lbs of force will work under JoeJ's interpretation. :)

With a small-enough straw, we can get the kinetic energy up around the rest-mass energy when the water gets to 0.9c. That's in the neighborhood of 10^19 joules every six seconds, and unlike the rest-mass energy it will be in a usable form (assuming you have a use for ultra-high-energy plasma anyway).

Hmm, one difficulty will be what to make the straw out of. We don't want it to vaporize instantly. A Wall of Force with overlapping 10' x 10' panels should work nicely, leaving a square hole of arbitrarily small size in the middle. Since the wall is immobile and the Decanter doesn't experience recoil, we don't even need a clamp.

And when you do all that, the water still shoots only 30 feet and only has enough power to do 1d4 bludgeoning damage (to a creature that fails its save) or move a 200 lb. or less object 15 feet. Kinetic energy is not a meaningful concept; the decanter follows the law of conservation of results. That is, the water is magically controlled to produce certain results and nothing further.

[Xetheral]

There are people who DON"T have a use for ultra-high-energy plasma?
:smallbiggrin:

I mean, I think the aquatic elf from the OP probably plans to use the Decanter for the salt water, rather than as a 4.5(ish) horsepower perpetual motion machine (using the turbine+gravitational waterwheel design, assuming conservation of momentum) or as a weapon to destroy cities (using the Decanter and Wall of Force nozzle/blast shield, assuming violation of conservation of momentum).

You know, under the violates-conservation-of-momentum interpretation, the Decanter is easily worth the otherwise-problematic 135,000 GP price.


And when you do all that, the water still shoots only 30 feet and only has enough power to do 1d4 bludgeoning damage (to a creature that fails its save) or move a 200 lb. or less object 15 feet. Kinetic energy is not a meaningful concept; the decanter follows the law of conservation of results. That is, the water is magically controlled to produce certain results and nothing further.

Sure, based on the item description the 30 gallons of water (travelling at 0.9c) hit a person, possibly deal 1d4 damage, and maybe knock them prone. The item's effects are now finished, and the description no longer controls. The water is still around, however, and does everything normal water would, which, in the case of normal water travelling 0.9c, involves lots of excitement.

Real answer: no, I would not use the item this way at my table, or let the PCs do so. It is fun to think about the implications though, especially when trying to enforce one aspect of the description (a lack of mention of any recoil) makes the implications much worse, rather than more palatable. :)

More broadly, all of our analysis is flawed anyway--the moment you start discarding conservation of energy and/or momentum, all of the other physics equations probably change too.

[JoeJ]

Sure, based on the item description the 30 gallons of water (travelling at 0.9c) hit a person, possibly deal 1d4 damage, and maybe knock them prone. The item's effects are now finished, and the description no longer controls. The water is still around, however, and does everything normal water would, which, in the case of normal water travelling 0.9c, involves lots of excitement.

The water hangs around, but after it goes 30 feet it's not travelling at 0.9 c. It's just laying there in puddles on the floor. It never was travelling at 0.9c; it was travelling 30 feet per round. Even if you put it through a tiny straw, both the amount and the speed remain unchanged. Magic and physics are not only separate, they have different underlying logics.

[greenstone]

...That price is insane, literally insane.
That's because the item is totally insane. In a desert, it is literally worth more than a kingdom. Rulers would happily bankrupt an entire nation just to get something that generates unlimited free fresh water.

Now for the salt water one, yep, discount that thing through the floor. The processes to turn sea water into potable water are slow and/or expensive in a typical D&D world, so the item is a wash. 10,000 gold, maybe less.

[ProsecutorGodot]

That's because the item is totally insane. In a desert, it is literally worth more than a kingdom. Rulers would happily bankrupt an entire nation just to get something that generates unlimited free fresh water.

Or, alternatively, you could have a handful of cleric/druid do a very similar thing with a 1st level spell. Sure, it takes longer, but it won't take that long to reach the same effect.

If they're able to cast 3rd level spells, they could create food at the same time.

The price is insane, the effect is a convenience unless you're looking to abuse it because the case of abuse is already possible, just significantly slower without it.

Magic exists in the world, if a kingdom is willing to bankrupt themselves for this decanter they're a fool, they could pay a handful of spellcasters for a lifetime without going bankrupt.

Besides, the desert king who has a squad of casters who fill up a giant basin in a ritualistic way every day is a lot more interesting than the one who bought a magic jug that someone has to hold and say "geyser" at every 6 seconds.

[PhoenixPhyre]

And when you do all that, the water still shoots only 30 feet and only has enough power to do 1d4 bludgeoning damage (to a creature that fails its save) or move a 200 lb. or less object 15 feet. Kinetic energy is not a meaningful concept; the decanter follows the law of conservation of results. That is, the water is magically controlled to produce certain results and nothing further.

Exactly. Magic does exactly and only what it says it does. The laws of earth physics can go hang.

[Unoriginal]

That's because the item is totally insane. In a desert, it is literally worth more than a kingdom. Rulers would happily bankrupt an entire nation just to get something that generates unlimited free fresh water.


...Yeah, no. If the desert kingdom exists, it means that they have enough water to maintain itself already. Having endless water when you already have enough water is just a luxury.

If the argument is that they want more water to expend/to counter the times water becomes rarer, then fine, but literally no person who'd stay in charge of anything would bankrupt themselves for that.

Especially when only a fool would bet everything they have, including the fate of whichever new thing they want to build, on something that can be stolen or broken so easily should their enemies target them.

[noob]

...Yeah, no. If the desert kingdom exists, it means that they have enough water to maintain itself already. Having endless water when you already have enough water is just a luxury.

If the argument is that they want more water to expend/to counter the times water becomes rarer, then fine, but literally no person who'd stay in charge of anything would bankrupt themselves for that.

Especially when only a fool would bet everything they have, including the fate of whichever new thing they want to build, on something that can be stolen or broken so easily should their enemies target them.

Especially since there is the create water spell which creates 45 litres at level 1 per casting so if you fear water penuries causing death by thirst you can just finance your favoured local church more.

[Porcupinata]

If anyone has been using a better list of magic items by cost, I'd love to see it! This PDF is getting long in the tooth, and while it was a perfectly useable starting place for me, I'm really still using it cause I haven't seen an alternative that I can vibe with.

There's always Blackball's Treasure (https://gurbintrollgames.wordpress.com/blackballs-treasure-2/). I find the prices in there much better than those in the "Sane" one - and it does a good job of explaining how they're arrived at rather than just having them arbitrarily decided.

That one bases most item prices on the spells they replicate, and pegs a Decanter of Endless Water at 3,500gp.

[da newt]

Price it however you like. If the magic item creates seawater, it's much less desirable than one that creates potable water or 12 gallons of anything liquidish/day.

I'd include this in your calculations: Why don't any of the water elves know the spells that create water? Salt is CHEAP, buy a few 50 gallon barrels of salt and create water as you need it (4.5 oz of salt per gallon for average earth seawater).

How much salt water does a water elf need every day, and what for?

Is it like the Grung - they need a daily soak? A soak wouldn't consume much water, so it would last for many uses - A handful of brine filled elf sized barrels in the ship's hold should suffice.

[Amdy_vill]

Hey Playground!

In my Eberron game, we've got an aquatic elf rogue/battlemaster with dreams of becoming a pirate queen! When we made the character, she picked out a decanter of endless (sea)water as a starting item so that she could adventure with the rest of our non-aquatic team without any issues.

She's recently gotten a few other sea elves to help out the party, and are going to be acting as supplementary crew/muscle aboard the Lyrandar airship they take to various places, woo!

This has led the party to ask if they could find another decanter of endless (sea)water to buy from a place in Xen'drik that might carry it. PCs spending gold on characters other than themselves? How lovely!

I go, "Makes sense to me! There's loads of aquatic elves and sahuagin in Stormreach that would benefit from that item, and it makes sense someone would make those/retrieve them from nearby ruins. Let me just look up the price in the Sane Magical Items PDF and we get----135,000 GP...."

They do not have that, they are level 7. And if I DID make the item worth that much and able to be traded, they should IMMEDIATELY get the pirate to pawn it for even a fifth of the price and make more money than I've given them during their most recent dungeon crawl.

I'll admit that Sane Magic Items Prices isn't my bible, but I totally understand why Saidoro put that price tag on there: if your campaign has a semi-decent sized desert town in it's world, you now own it, and should stop adventuring to make back your 135,000 GP several times over.

What I'm wondering though, is saying that the decanter only makes endless salt-water enough of a nerf to bump it down to an affordable cost? If so, does making it cost the usual NonCombat But Super Useful Pricetag of 1,000 gp track? Or am I missing some other reason to make this a luxury item either than its ability to break the entire economy of a nation?

Thanks everyone!

so I would argue that the sane magic items price is wrong here, given that it sights a specific reason for being so high and you do not seem to be engading with any systems that the reason effect(ie you don't seem to be in a servial focused game) you should probably use a normal price. while 5e magic item pricing may be lacking when i comes to certain interactions so long as you not interacting with those rules(survival so on) you should overlook them for the purposes of having a fun game instead of a realistic game. its also quite easy to turn saltwater into drinkable water, we have been doing it since literally the invention of fire(some of the early ceramics we have seem to be veries type of boiler.) the reason we don't rely on it is that it takes effort, often more effort in the long run then the creation of other sources. infinite salt water is just infinite water with about 1-3 hours of prep required. this is excluding the massive amounts of low level magic the fixes saltwater and you are playing in a high magic, magi tech setting with one of its big ideas being the industrialization of connections and uses of the elemental plains.

remember dnd is balanced as a game, magic item rarity is mostly built around bookkeeping or if it interacts with the bonded accuracy system, its put into a the rareity that bonded accuracy wants it in. the pricing is then built around other game systems, money is worthless in dnd, silver and copper can't buy anything but simple good and almost everything outside of food requires you to be rich. its more important for the game to be balanced fun as a game than being realistic. this is also excluding ideas like market value and demands, in a world where a large amount of the population can produce decanters and decanters are so useful, do they keep their value or do the market drive down the price and makes them an everyday item. money is complex and simplifying it to water is important in the desert their for decanters are expensive is to be willingly ignorant of the complex factor surrounding and the complexity of markets, now you can predict a market that doesn't exist but you can talk about it and given the reason for decanters increased price are also the reason it would likely have it price-driven down lead to their really being a non-coversation, we should care more about the game play and not the realism.

[Bardon]

...Yeah, no. If the desert kingdom exists, it means that they have enough water to maintain itself already. Having endless water when you already have enough water is just a luxury.

If the argument is that they want more water to expend/to counter the times water becomes rarer, then fine, but literally no person who'd stay in charge of anything would bankrupt themselves for that.

Especially when only a fool would bet everything they have, including the fate of whichever new thing they want to build, on something that can be stolen or broken so easily should their enemies target them.

Ahh, but what if the source of water for the desert kingdom is diminishing? Sounds like a plot hook to me... :)

[Chaosmancer]

All I'm seeing here is "if my non spellcasters want items that replicate spells they need the wealth of a small nation"

Conquer a desert with a decanter of endless water? Create food and water, or just create water.

Winged Boots? Fly, 3rd level spell.

If you're charging them this fee for magic items, I would hope you're offering similarly "sane" prices for a magic casters services. Does the party have a full caster? They should retire into nobility.


This was always my problem with that PDF. The premise seemed to be "A clever player could make a lot of money with this, so I need to make it very expensive."

But, a clever player can make a lot of money period.

My favorite example is Plant Growth, requires a 5th level druid or cleric. I don't have the energy to look up wheat prices again, but I do have some pre-made math I did for a game on how many potatoes we could grow for our town (city building game)

We had a strip of land that was 688.71 acres. Big, but not unreasonably so if we treat this number as a season's work. With a half-mile radius, you only need a few castings of plant growth to hit all of it, I think it took three.

Potatoes are very densely grown, and on that much land you can grow around 16,873,395 lbs of potatoes. Plant Growth doubles this to 33,746,790.

Even if you assume that Potatoes are worth 1/5 of a copper per pound, and that the druid only makes 10% of the farmer's profit from doing this, three castings of this spell would net them 6,749 gold. The spring lasts at least three months, so even if you travel a week between locations, and take three days at each location, this can be done at least nine times for 60,744 gold.

Which, doesn't sound like a lot, but remember, 10% profit on a 1/5 of a copper per pound. If you were able to hit any more profitable plant, like say cotton or something, you could trivially rake in 100's of thousands of gold.



TL;DR
Clever players can make money. They don't need magic items to do it