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StragaSevera
2021-01-25, 06:18 AM
I never DMed a game, because I'm too anxious. One thing I am anxious of is handling player's improvisation - mechanically.

I don't want to be railroading - I enjoy games that are more free-form. Of course, I will make and structure hypothetical plot, with major NPCs, their motivations and so on - but I fully expect players to not make the decisions I thought of.

But, how do I hande such instances mechanically?

For example, imagine this situation. Party needs help of a priest who knows how to defeat the Demon Lord. Unfortunately, such priest was put in jail because of false accusations of him working for demons.
I thought of three ways my party could solve the problem: bust him out by force (I made a map of the jail and some encounters there), prove his innocence (I planted some hooks that players could find), or make a big financial pledge for him (there is a well-paying contract for monster hunting that will exactly cover the price, and I prepared the monster encounters).

But then, for example, the party learns that a powerful mage lives in this city, but he is away for a buisness trip and will not come back for a few weeks (I made it so they would not try to get his help with this problem). And a party rogue has a genius idea - let's rob the mage's tower, and either find some artifact they can use to teleport a priest out of jail, or, worst case scenario, sell all goods to the underworld dealers and get the money to bail out the priest!

And, in this hypothetical example, I'm sitting speechless and unsure what to do.

The easy way is to railroad them. Rock falls, the wizard teleports back from the trip. But it is not fun.
The hard way is to make something on the fly. I don't have problems with having to roleplay it, I'm good with improvisation. I have problems with mechanical part - I did not prepare any encounters that would seem logical in a mage's tower. If the tower is guarded by an elaborate weave of traps that activate golems and summon magic flying worms - what are the stats of the golems and the worms? Should I stop the session, go to Google or my paper Bestiary and construct an encounter while players are bored of waiting?.. Or should I wing it and have a risk of wiping the players (or making an encounter extremely easy and non-satisfying?).

And such anxiety consumes me in all instances of going off rails. If a player wants to cast a Charm on a merchant to make him give a discount - what should I do mechanically, how high is his Will save? If a players wants to Sneak Attack a questgiver, how much Flat-Footed AC does she have?..
How can I handle this mechanical improvisation?

Kvess
2021-01-25, 08:12 AM
Try to time major decisions to the end of the night? Improvisation is great, but there’s a difference between expecting a GM to have a character react to a curveball and prepare an entire dungeon in 15 seconds.

If it just does not work out that way and you need a bit of time to breathe, one workaround is to insert an encounter before the players wander somewhere undefined. Your players will of course need to travel through wilderness or within a city, and there are many possible creatures with their own agendas who can intercept the party.

IMHO this is a large part of why random encounter tables exist, and hopefully that will chew through enough gameplay that you can figure something out for next session.

OldTrees1
2021-01-25, 08:16 AM
I never DMed a game, because I'm too anxious. One thing I am anxious of is handling player's improvisation - mechanically.

And, in this hypothetical example, I'm sitting speechless and unsure what to do.

The easy way is to railroad them. Rock falls, the wizard teleports back from the trip. But it is not fun.
The hard way is to make something on the fly. I don't have problems with having to roleplay it, I'm good with improvisation. I have problems with mechanical part - I did not prepare any encounters that would seem logical in a mage's tower. If the tower is guarded by an elaborate weave of traps that activate golems and summon magic flying worms - what are the stats of the golems and the worms? Should I stop the session, go to Google or my paper Bestiary and construct an encounter while players are bored of waiting?.. Or should I wing it and have a risk of wiping the players (or making an encounter extremely easy and non-satisfying?).

And such anxiety consumes me in all instances of going off rails. If a player wants to cast a Charm on a merchant to make him give a discount - what should I do mechanically, how high is his Will save? If a players wants to Sneak Attack a questgiver, how much Flat-Footed AC does she have?..
How can I handle this mechanical improvisation?

Step 1: Mentally acknowledge this is outside of what you prepared for, and that is okay.
Step 2: Tell the players you did not prepare for this and there is going to be a short break while you prepare for the outcome of their choices.
Step 3: Open the relevant resources. I keep my physical copy of the monster manual / bestiary next to me during the session.
Step 4: While preparing acknowledge that improvising is a skill and you will get better at it through practice. Eventually you will not need to take a break.
Step 5: After the session think about how to adjust your preparation to better fit the playstyle of the group. Maybe do a bit less deep preparation and a little more breadth preparation?

From my experience in your examples:
1) I know the mage has a tower and is away. I know the tower is guarded by traps and low/zero maintenance minions. I know the mage has a specialization. What was that specialization? My mind might fill in the blank as a Conjuror or I might roll a die to decide. I know the mage is a powerful mage so they will have powerful wards, but the party is also powerful so their plan might still work. I pick 3 interesting offensive spells with 2 of them being from the mage's specialization. I base these spells based on the spell level the party or the mage could cast depending on if I am tailoring encounters to the party level or having the world determine CR independent of party level. In this case I might pick a teleportation trap (remove the thief), a force cage trap (hold the thief), and Gate to summon a powerful outsider aligned with the mage (might summon an angel). Then since conjuration does not lend itself to persistent minions, I would default to golems. I would flip to the golem section of the monster manual and pick one with a CR that is a solo encounter and another that would work as a pair. Now I have 5 encounters spread across the floors of the mage's tower. The Party might enter at any floor and their choices in navigating the tower will determine which defenses if any they trigger. With practice that can take 5m of prep and eventually can be done while the party is discussing how to enter the tower.

2) How high is the will save for a merchant? What level is the merchant? They seem to have a skill based life without much call for will saves so I would assume they are not specialized in it. How wise is this particular merchant? If you don't know take the average wisdom for their species. So, if this were 3rd edition, I would peg the common merchant merchant as 3rd level, with Will as a poor save (+1 at 3rd), and they have a 12 Wis, so they have a +2 on their will save. Or is this a retired adventurer running a magic item shop? I would peg them as 10th level, with a 50% chance (roll a die) of having a good will save (+3 or +7), and a 10 Wis. So either a +3 or a +7 on their will save.

3) Flat footed AC is 10 + Armor. What is the quest giver wearing? Full Plate? Concealed mithril chainmail? Mage armor? Turn to the PHB (I also keep that next to me) and check the armor. Then ask if it would be magical. Quest givers tend to be lower level than quest takers (but double check if that makes sense here). I am going to guess they had +1 mithril chainmail for a flat footed AC of 10+5+1=16

As you can see, my mechanism for handling mechanical improvisation is to ask the world a question, hear its reply, and then reference a reference manual.

Mastikator
2021-01-25, 08:32 AM
When it comes to sneak attacking quest givers and charming merchants I usually have a "generic person" stat sheet and just use that for all NPCs that don't have their own stats.

That being said, *puts on fireproof vest* there's nothing wrong with a bit of railroading if you're up front about the game NOT being a sandbox to the players. If you want the quest giver to survive just say: "no you do not sneak attack the quest giver, stop disrupting the game because the alternative is that you kill the quest giver and then we all go home."
I know this forum it's popular to say that the DM should always go with whatever shenanigans the players are doing and the DM should just be good at improvising or stop being a DM but that's not realistic. It takes years of practice to have a chance at being good at improv, some DMs never get good at it. You are allowed to say no.

With the wizard's tower I think it would be very easy to just say that the security is so good that they immediately fail and see no way to get in with no option to roll for it.

StragaSevera
2021-01-25, 09:13 AM
Thank you very much for your replies! Especially to OldTrees1 - when you put it that way, it does not seem so frightening =-)

Tanarii
2021-01-25, 12:14 PM
But then, for example, the party learns that a powerful mage lives in this city, but he is away for a buisness trip and will not come back for a few weeks (I made it so they would not try to get his help with this problem). And a party rogue has a genius idea - let's rob the mage's tower, and either find some artifact they can use to teleport a priest out of jail, or, worst case scenario, sell all goods to the underworld dealers and get the money to bail out the priest!

And, in this hypothetical example, I'm sitting speechless and unsure what to do.

I love player genius ideas. Like this one, they're almost guaranteed to result in a TPK, in which the players can clearly connect the dots between their poor decision making and the consequences. :smallamused:

Edit: yeah, it's a problem if you introduce a powerful NPC with powerful items in their lair and haven't thought a little bit about their defenses to allow you to wing it, Because this is the kind of "genius" idea that players often have. OTOH you don't have to worry about the encounters being far too challenging. Just pull out all the stops, go with crazy powerful encounters. There's no reasonable expectation a powerful Wizard won't have incredibly powerful defenses far beyond what the average adventuring party can handle. Otherwise they'd have been robbed repeatedly already.

Ettina
2021-01-25, 12:56 PM
With the wizard's tower I think it would be very easy to just say that the security is so good that they immediately fail and see no way to get in with no option to roll for it.

Speaking of which, one tactic I use is to remind players of stuff they might not have considered but their PC would probably know, like that any wizard who's as powerful as this guy supposedly is will likely have very robust defenses for protecting his stuff, and they're unlikely to have any success stealing it.

Also, if you don't want to improvise a whole dungeon, maybe they successfully search his tower and find nothing of interest, because this wizard keeps his valuables in a personal demiplane that only he can open a portal to. The one time I played a high-level wizard in D&D, I stashed basically anything I wanted to keep safe in my demiplane.

Lord Torath
2021-01-25, 01:17 PM
When it comes to sneak attacking quest givers and charming merchants I usually have a "generic person" stat sheet and just use that for all NPCs that don't have their own stats.

That being said, *puts on fireproof vest* there's nothing wrong with a bit of railroading if you're up front about the game NOT being a sandbox to the players. If you want the quest giver to survive just say: "no you do not sneak attack the quest giver, stop disrupting the game because the alternative is that you kill the quest giver and then we all go home."
I know this forum it's popular to say that the DM should always go with whatever shenanigans the players are doing and the DM should just be good at improvising or stop being a DM but that's not realistic. It takes years of practice to have a chance at being good at improv, some DMs never get good at it. You are allowed to say no.You'll get no fire from me for this action. We've had multiple "DM Rules" threads on this site, and one common rule is "It's okay for the players to disrupt your plot. It's not okay for them to disrupt your game." Disrupting the plot is bypassing the guardhouse to sneak directly into the enemy HQ. Disrupting the game is stopping the adventure before it even gets started.

If a player says they will attack the quest giver, before resolving their action, ask them "Why?". If they can't come up with a reason that isn't essentially "for the lulz!" tell them that you as DM reserve the right to disallow disruptive actions. I think a few cases of players attacking quest givers have been blown out of proportion, as it's not been something I've ever encountered. If you've had a Session Zero, where you went over the type of campaign you're planning, and what type of party dynamics and player behavior is allowed, you're unlikely to run into this problem.

Attacking the quest giver not only affects the character that attacked, but the entire party, who now have to deal with the consequences. If you have a player who attempts any disruptive action (not just attacking the quest giver), always ask why before allowing them to resolve it. Find out their Out-of-Character as well as In-Character reasons. Maybe they have a legitimate grievance. If so, talk to them, and the group, and see if it can be resolved. Maybe it's time to revisit your social contract.

What's a social contract? It's the rules you all agree to abide by, like who brings Pizza, and how long before the session you need to give notice that you will not be available (with obvious exceptions for unplanned emergencies), what happens to PCs when their players are not present, use proper personal hygine, and don't be a jerk. Here's an example from one member of this forum:

Quick Summary:

1. We’re here to have fun.
2. Be constructive, not destructive, to other players (including the DM).
3. Communicate!
4. DM should be able to take constructive criticism.
5. DM should adjust the campaign based on actions of the PCs.
6. DM should not railroad the story.
7. Combat is most exciting when it’s dangerous.
8. DM should not deliberately try to kill PCs, but PCs will probably die occasionally.
9. It’s good to have places/things too powerful for the PCs to defeat.
10. DM needs to communicate when things are too powerful for the PCs to defeat.
11. NPCs should generally follow the same rules the PCs use. But only generally.
12. PCs should be able to attempt things not covered in the rules.
13. The DM runs the game; the dice do not.
14. DM is not required to roll dice in the open (but he can if he wants to).
15. Don’t interrupt the game with long rules arguments.
16. Retcons are to be avoided, but may be used in extreme circumstances.
17. DM shouldn’t try to “win” by beating the players.
18. Characters will occasionally die – permanently.
19. Players should learn the rules of the game.
20. Treat your host with respect, use good personal hygiene, and chip in for/provide your own food and drink (according to arrangements made by your group).
21. Alignment and paladin codes need to be clearly communicated to the players. If players do something “against code”, assume they forgot, and give them a refresher and a chance to change their action.
22. Don’t be a jerk IC unless it’s agreed on beforehand, or OoC.
23. DM can prohibit disruptive PC actions.
24. Players run the PCs, the DM does not.
*****
D&D Manifesto
Send comments to [email protected]
Occasional bumps in play after adopting the 3rd Edition rules led me to realize that players are just not always operating on the same page as I am. What I say/mean and what they hear/understand are often quite different things. All DM’s face similar problems to one degree or another. Everyone has different ideas of what the approach of a DM or player should be to the game so they may have erroneous assumptions about what those approaches actually ARE. No matter how many years you’ve been discussing rules and little bits of "game philosophy" what you have specifically in mind and what your players understand to be the case are, too often, two very different beasts. Though it had always been a consistent issue before then, in 3rd Edition this produced highly undesirable arguments with players over in-game situations that I decided could and SHOULD have been avoided by communicating with my players as much as I did with people online about D&D. So, I decided to more formally set out some principles of what I think my job is as DM. It’s what I think is the job of every DM. It’s the "rights and responsibilities" of everyone including players. It’s the differences between what the DM can do, should try to do, and is obligated to do.
This document is based on discussions I have read and participated in for decades now on the internet - including before there was even a World Wide Web. Any number of personal conversations and game situations over decades of playing have also contributed, as have my own independent study of the issues. I haven’t personally experienced everything discussed below, but everybody will have seen some part of it in their games and faced resolving the issues created.
You may believe differently than I do on specific issues. This isn’t meant to be a full-blown set of house rules, but a general philosophy to be basing house rules upon. It’s a "same page" for all the participants to work from regardless of the specific rules a DM later applies. As such, when it is edited to fit YOUR ideas it should make a good companion to any collection of house rules you assemble. Discuss it with players. Get their input. Add, modify, delete. I'm not trying to dictate to you how to play - I'm just telling you that you need to have this discussion with your gaming group before you start playing so you can begin and maintain an open dialogue.
I realize that it is LONG. I've tried to keep it as concise as possible while still being clear, but I believe it's important to cover ALL these items. The ones you think don't need to be mentioned may just be the ones that turn out to be more important than the others. I will even suggest that you go so far as to read it aloud before beginning any campaign. If you're running an open game such as at a game store then read it at the beginning of every session and/or have print copies that can be handed out. Have players read along and take them home, and give them your email address so they can provide feedback. If a new player joins the campaign in progress then have THEM read it aloud so there can be no excuses. It will also provide a DM with the ability to say, "We will now re-read the Manifesto because somebody at the table needs to be reminded of what it says." Heck, just add a last line that reads:
"By signing this document, or even by simply agreeing to play in the game which is informed and governed by this document, I agree to abide by its precepts (even if I disagree with some of them) and accept that I will be asked to leave if I cannot or will not do so."
... and have them sign it.

1. The first job of everyone playing the game is to enjoy it. It is the whole point to the exercise. If you're not having fun why are you here?
2. Be constructive. If you're not having fun try to do something about it. Don’t be disruptive in the process. You are there to enjoy yourself, but not to be passively entertained, and not at the expense of others at the table. Active participation is a necessary component - as is your maturity and restraint.
3. Communicate DANG IT! If you aren't having fun as a player, even though you may think it's very obvious, it's quite possible the DM or other players aren't going to know unless you say something. If you’re not enjoying your experience as DM you don’t have to put up with it. Nobody can force you to run a game. Sometimes you become the DM just because everyone else wants to avoid the job more than you do, but remember that no one can take advantage of you without your permission. If you have a problem with ANYTHING in the game: rules, behavior of a player, etc. then SAY SO! ESP is not a standard human ability.
4. The day a DM can't deal with a helpful suggestion or even hard, sincere criticism from players about the campaign is the day the DM needs to give up the chair. The game does not revolve around stroking the DM's ego.
5. A campaign is not absolutely under a DM's control. When PCs take actions within the campaign the campaign needs to adjust to take those actions into account. Through their characters actions the players WILL make changes to the game, therefore the DM cannot and should not attempt to force the campaign to go ONLY in directions he planned for because the freedom that is necessary for player characters can and will foil prearranged plans.
6. Things do not always go as the DM plans (see #5). For this reason among others the DM should really not be seeking to dictate a story. The only way to get characters to play out the story the DM believes they should play out is to force them to. Campaigns are about the player characters. They weave stories created and heavily influenced by the characters actions. D&D wasn't intended to be a game where player characters were simply plugged into a story preordained by the DM and then required to go through the motions to fulfill it. You must provide opportunity for the characters to do things yet not constantly try to control what they do to fit what you wanted. DM's should keep their stinking noses out of EVERY decision that a player makes for a PC unless it's absolutely necessary to maintain order, or specific in-game rules suspend a players control over his characters actions.
7. Danger levels: The most satisfying combats are usually the ones that take characters right to the edge of death, with the very real danger of death being present, yet without actually crossing that threshold unnecessarily. But not only is the game designed to randomize events but even small differences in so many areas combine to make it impossible to plan perfectly. Combat encounters are never a sure thing regardless of how meticulously designed they are. So, while the edge of disaster is the most exciting place to be it is also is the most likely way for events to slip out of control. This is just something that needs to be kept in mind by everyone.
8. A DM who truly sets out to deliberately kill the PCs has no business being a DM. The DM has at all times and in all ways the ability to kill the PCs whenever he bloody well feels like it, so if the DM's does intend to kill the characters what kind of fun is that for anybody? A DM who gets his jollies by thoughtlessly causing players to lose favorite characters and create new ones which they know will stand no better chance of long-term survival doesn't deserve the patience his players undoubtedly have to give him. If the DM is running combats at the edge of danger where the fun is (see #7) then PCs will occasionally die anyway. See also # 17.
9. Even given #’s 7 and 8 above it is still in everybody's interest for a campaign to have places, creatures, or encounters that the PCs are not actually able to defeat. It gives a campaign world a needed aura that it does not exist purely for the benefit of the PCs but has a life of its own. Without it the world becomes a place where the dangers within it always scale precisely - and therefore unrealistically - to the PCs’ capabilities. There is never anything like a real "Canyon of Doom" or legendarily undefeatable monster if its power is always adjusted to what the PCs can immediately handle.
10. Given #9 (that there are people and places that the PCs cannot and should not face) part of the DM's job is to make sure that the players and their characters are suitably warned about lethal dangers. That goes back to #8 – that it is never the DM's job to set out to kill the characters. It is the players’ responsibility to pay attention to those warnings without anyone needing to break character. But if the characters ignore warnings (for whatever reason) the DM is then justified in applying what he actually knows to be lethal force in an encounter. Still doesn't mean he should, just that it can’t really be held against him if he does. What this means for players is that the bull-headed notion of always fighting to the death, never retreating, and never surrendering will ultimately lead only to a TPK (total party kill) which is no fun for anyone.
11. Fair Play: It is generally in the interest of "fair play" for the DM to have the rest of his campaign world operating largely under the same rules that the PCs do. PCs and NPCs should have much the same limitations and open possibilities, but to get fanatical about "being fair" in this regard is not in anyone's interests either. It would mean that the DM is restricted in creating new and interesting challenges for the characters. While there are innumerable options within the existing rules, being allowed to create new rules, singular exceptions to rules, and even things that would not otherwise be possible under the known rules is a DM's prerogative. Only if the DM overuses or abuses this privilege are the players being cheated in any way. The "rules" never have, and never will, contain the absolute answers for everything in a campaign. It may also be that the DM needs to explain some changes up front. Fair play also applies between players. Characters are inherently unequal - in ANY version of the rules - and cannot be made equal; not by balancing feats, skills and abilities; not by everyone having identical ability scores; not even by everyone using completely identical characters because player skill and choice makes a difference too. Enjoyment of the game should not rely on NOBODY possibly having more fun than you at a given time. If it does then you're too immature for MY games. The DM needs only to try to make sure that the gap between one PC and another isn't TOO excessive.
12. As a corollary to #11, the players and their characters are not always bound by "the rules" in what they can do (or at least in what they can attempt.) There simply isn’t a rule for everything. One of a DM's biggest jobs is adjudication and adaptation of rules to the many situations that arise within a game. So by definition PCs can at least attempt to do things outside of the rules. In fact they generally get extra credit for such creativity (unless they make themselves a pest by constantly trying to do things not covered by the rules). To then deny the same privilege to the DM would be silly; to expect the DM to religiously follow rules when the players don’t.
13. The dice don’t run the game - the DM does. There are many charts, tables, formulae, etc for DMs to use in running the game. Naturally, using dice produces random results - at least as random as the tables and charts allow. The game, however, is not LIMITED to the dictates of charts and tables which is why there is the position of DM at all. I feel that not only is the DM free to expand or restrict the tables and formulae, but that he is free to alter dice rolls as well. At least those rolls that would negatively affect the PCs. A little of that (very little!) goes a long way and just because you can doesn’t mean that you should. To fudge things in the favor of the players is a useful tool to have as long as appropriate consequences of BAD decisions by the players or their characters are not being removed as a result. This is a DM's escape clause so it should be used only when as a DM you NEED (not just want) to alter results. To arbitrarily adjust results against the PCs is not a good idea at all. It often serves no purpose but to enforce a preconceived conclusion that the DM has – that the DM wants to force the PCs to conform to his personal vision, meaning that the players control of their own characters is rendered pointless. Remember that as DM it is your job to lose to the PCs - A LOT. I have found that slavish obedience to the dice and their results is too often just an attempt to dodge the responsibilities of the DM as primary instigator of a fun, interesting, and exciting game. The DM already has vast latitude; he can arbitrarily decide how many and how often dice rolls get made as well as many of the modifiers that would affect them. To then say that he must always, unwaveringly accept dice rolls only as-is or else be branded "unfair" or even a cheat is ludicrous. Similarly, there may be times when players should NOT have to roll to succeed regardless of what the rules say. See also # 18.
14. The DM is certainly not required to roll his dice in the open and should normally be discouraged from doing so. There may be factors at work behind the screen that the players should not, and need not be able to deduce by meta-game mathematics. Players and/or their characters will not always know every bonus and penalty that can and is being applied. Also, given #13, it prevents the DM from attempting to work things in the PCs’ favor without unnecessarily revealing that he’s doing so. Players on the other hand should always roll their dice openly. Nothing is kept secret from the DM because the DM needs, and still has adjudication and veto power - the precise details for which are not necessarily important for players to know. The only situation I can think of where a player can hide his rolls is as regards another player - but even then the DM still has authority to see all rolls, even if all the players don't.
15. Differences of Opinion About Rules: Conventional wisdom suggests that whenever it is at all feasible rules-lawyering should be kept to a minimum during the game. Players should concisely state the substance of objections, the DM should make a ruling after listening to all sides, and if players take exception to the ruling it should be noted - but then play should proceed. If a DM is not out to screw the players but to simply provide the best game possible there are very few problems whose minutia could not wait until later (even until after the session is over) to hash out. Also, the DM is not perfect and not everything he rules on in a game should be considered a new law graven in stone. If they make mistakes and change their minds later it doesn’t mean everything from earlier events needs to be "retconned." See #16 below.
16. Retconning or Retcon is short for Retroactive Continuity. It means to "turn back time" to the point where a mistake was made and begin playing again from that point. When bad rulings, oversights, meta-game complications, or bad/boring plots go REALLY bad this is one way to fix things, but it is never very satisfying. If things have not degenerated too far it may be best to handle things this way, but there comes a certain point where it is better to simply accept what has taken place - no matter how stupidly or badly it was done - take it in stride and move forward. The level of screw-up that leads to taking this route always seems to involve a character's death making resolution of the problem more emotionally charged for players than would normally be the case.
17. The DM is not there to formally oppose the players despite what you may read in comics. He is there to provide the world for the characters, things for them to do within it, and to adjudicate their actions. If the DM sees himself as the opponent for the players – he wins. The only question then is how tedious and humiliating an experience he makes it for the players. He gets to make up anything and everything that the characters encounter. There is no ability for the players to trump that, so there can be no purely antagonistic position between players and DM without the DM simply being a gigantic ass.
18. Characters die. They can – and should – occasionally die permanently. It is my firm belief that resurrection magic is in the game only because it is so easy for characters to die and playing on the edge of disaster is more fun and exciting (see #7), but unless permanent character death is more than just a theoretical possibility that never really occurs there is no fear of death and playing "on the edge" is meaningless. Players must accept the real possibility that a favorite character can and will die permanently and that the DM can’t predict when and who it will be. Very seldom will a character even be able to willingly go out in a cinematic blaze of glory. Such things are simply very hard to engineer because the game isn't designed to facilitate it without just throwing all rules to the wind and narrating a predetermined outcome.
19. Players must learn the rules. Nobody needs to pass a rules knowledge test or memorize it all - not even the DM - but it's more than reasonable to expect that players read the entire Players Handbook and be able to understand it. Anyone new to the game needs to accept that they will need to do a lot of reading and put some effort into learning the game, and there is a lot of information they need to absorb right from the start. The basics of the game can be taught in short order, perhaps an hour or at most one game session. After a few sessions of play they should NOT require having basics repeatedly explained. Only if the DM informs players up front that the rules DON'T MATTER, or the player actually has learning disabilities is anyone excused from achieving a general, functional knowledge of the game. Older editions in particular have elements that are confused or questions left unanswered. DMs are required to fill in those gaps in ways suitable to their game. Players should accept that not everything has a single, easy answer or definition.
20. Regarding "Table Rules": Wherever the game session is taking place respect the host and the hosts property. Don't make a mess. Clean it up if you do. Behave. You are a GUEST so act accordingly. Assist the host and/or DM in getting others to respect the Table Rules. Sadly, it is necessary to state that this includes being mindful of your own hygiene. Just because nobody tells you, "You stink!" doesn't mean that you don't. They may want to tell you so but are TOO polite to do so, they don't know how to do it tactfully, or rightly fear that it will be taken for an insult rather than an appropriate reaction to YOUR social offensiveness. This means bathe/shower before a game, wear clean clothes, and brush your teeth. Any simple request that you clean yourself up, stop interrupting, stop being an ass, pay attention to the game instead of the phone/computer/book/your navel lint/etc. must NOT be considered an insult. It will be considered a FAVOR to you; an opportunity to better yourself as a person if not as a player. A simple, direct apology and CORRECTION of the situation is all that should be necessary. Players are typically responsible for their own food, drinks, etc. unless arrangements are made ahead of time. It is BASIC manners to reciprocate other players hospitality if/when it comes to be your turn to host the game. If you so desire or cannot afford to do so then advise people well ahead of time so that other arrangements can be made.
21. There are some game rules which despite being rules are subject to wide interpretation. What alignment means to you and how it works is probably chief among these. Paladins and their obligations are related and a close second. How certain feats actually function, or maybe just what you will and won't allow players/PCs to do are variables. These things MUST be clarified at the start and perhaps even occasionally restated - even if you go by the book. Really, this should be assumed under #3 but communication (or lack thereof) is the single most common cause of ALL problems in D&D. The DM should not always assume the players know what he wants, how he interprets things, or runs things. These things must be TOLD to players early and often to eliminate misunderstandings and arguments. If players are not given this information then they should demand it - and if it isn't provided they must not be held to fault for implementing their own interpretations.
22. Players are obliged to be fair and reasonable to other players, as well as for their characters to act likewise towards other PCs. There is no excuse for either you or your character to be an ass. NONE. The only exception being if the ALL the players are mature enough for their characters to be openly antagonistic of each other, and that the DM has made it clear from the start that such behavior is to be allowed, as well as how it will be kept in line. This is NOT an unreasonable restriction upon roleplaying but is, in fact, a very basic supposition of the game: the PCs, an often radically diverse party of individuals, nonetheless DO adventure together for money, glory, and other mutually agreeable ends. This means that right from the start, as a player you are largely obliged to find reasons for your character to LIKE the other PCs, not openly antagonize them. It means that no player gets to dictate to the other players the circumstances of their participation in the game in general; no character gets to dictate to another character how they are to be treated in the adventuring party, nor may an exclusive collection of two or more players/characters exert such control over one or more others. The DM is obliged to maintain this atmosphere of civility and cooperation, or, if it has been agreed by all beforehand to allow crossing that line, he is obliged to keep in and out-of-character attitudes and behavior from becoming disruptive.
23. The DM is not required to allow a character to actually play out in the game anything that the player wants. What that means is that particularly if the player is about to do something the DM feels is either really stupid or openly disruptive he should stop the game and get clarification or correction before proceeding. For example, if a character is about to kill an NPC for no reason, then rather than allow it to happen the DM should stop the player and find out what's going on. Determine the player's/character's motive. If the players response is unsatisfactory he should DISALLOW the action from taking place at all and let play proceed from THAT point instead of proceeding from the point AFTER the disruptive act has been allowed to occur and trying to pick up the pieces. Communication flows both ways and the DM does not need to act as if players should be forbidden to ever knows what goes on in a DM's mind or behind the DM shield. When a DM makes rulings there is no reason not to freely explain why he rules as he does unless there is in-game information involved that PCs should not be privy to. DMs should be capable of providing explanations for their rulings beyond, "because I said so."
24. The players run their characters - the DM does NOT. Unless players are being disruptive just for the sake of being disruptive the DM should keep his stinking paws off controlling the PCs. The DM does not dictate what the PC's do except if some form of in-game magical control has removed it from the player (such as charm, or lycanthropy) - and then the DM needs to be VERY judicious about what he does with the character. The ONE THING players get to control in the game is the attempted actions of their characters. DM's should interfere with that control only in extremis and with great care and caution even then. This extends to not interfering with treasure distribution. Although the DM determines what treasure is found it must generally be left up to the players and their characters to determine how it is distributed - unless it is done so badly as to be disruptive or patently unfair to other players.

Tanarii
2021-01-25, 02:02 PM
Speaking of which, one tactic I use is to remind players of stuff they might not have considered but their PC would probably know, like that any wizard who's as powerful as this guy supposedly is will likely have very robust defenses for protecting his stuff, and they're unlikely to have any success stealing it.
Absolutely, warn the players before you TPK them.

Also worth asking if they've paid dues with the local thieves guild and gotten authorization for this job? Since the powerful Wizard will have either paid them off, or have good enough defenses it doesn't need to. Worth knowing if you're gonna have thieves and assassins crawling out of the woodwork if you survive.

Always a good idea to point out things when players haven't even considered the basics.

---------

Either that or they're already so powerful they can do whatever they want, and really the only thing stopping them from murderhoboing around town is a moral code, armies, or constantly adventuring in the outer planes. Kinda joking, but really there's a point in D&D where that line gets crossed. Usually around Name Level.

Yora
2021-01-25, 04:52 PM
Contrary to the common saying, there are many situations where the best option to proceed is to tell the players No.
Sometimes thing can go into such unexpected directions that it's just not possible for a GM to deal with it on the fly. When that happens, tell the players. You still can offer them two options: They can either chose to go with a different plan that you can manage right now, or they will have to wait until the next game to go through with it, when you had the time to prepare the new content.
Generally speaking, most players are okay with a fun idea not being doable right now, and they are fine with thinking of something else then. Though in some cases, when the game would end in 30 or 60 minutes anyway, and the plan sounds really fun, waiting until the next game can also be a really good way to proceed.
Gamemastering is not magic and you can't always get everything you want as a player. It's not bad to let players know about the limitations of the game. It's only railroading when you tell the players what they have to do. Sometimes reaching the edge of prepared content is in the nature of roleplaying games.

jayem
2021-01-25, 05:49 PM
If you get totally stuck. You could roll a die to dictate your mood (and hence give a bit of a nudge to your improvisation and eyeballing), 1&2 you are harsher that you initially planned to be, 3&4 you go with your common sense , 5&6 you are more generous.
It would break you from just enforcing your will, while also leave plenty of space for you to enforce common sense, and for their actions to be meaningful.

So perhaps regarding the mages tower. You ask them what to do, and they say they'll case the outside. You aren't a big fan of the idea and don't think it's really doable (you sent him away as he is so far above them he'd make their challenges easy, so that makes sense) so for 3&4 you just make up non-descript barriers. High Walls (beyond their skill level), Locked Gates, Heavily Armed Guards, Keep Out signs. If they concur it's reasonable not to attempt it, then you are fine. If they decide to look at getting a massive ladder then you have to deal with that.

5&6, you now have to think of something that makes the castle (possibly) accessible that would be discoverable from looking at the walls (perhaps a 'barely' scalable bit of wall), 1&2 you have to think of an obstacle that would impinge someone walking round the walls might encounter (perhaps a suspicious neighbour).

Then while the balls back in their court, fill in some of the blanks. Hopefully soon, you get back to something there is concrete mechanics for.

MrStabby
2021-01-27, 09:50 AM
what game system are you playing?

It makes a difference. If its something like D&D 5th edition then there is a lot you can do as it comes up. If it's 3rd edition I wouldbe suggesting ways to stall or other ways to manage it.

But generally...

1) Have a few pre-built locations. This is easier for me whenI play online through roll20 or similar, but works in person as well. Not finished, but things like building/treasure traps... who lives there and other details then added as they come up. Have the players land in a basement. Loadsof buildings have basements - you were going to use it sooner or later.

2) Stall. You know that really interesting NPC you wanted to introduce? Have them meet the party there - maybe a prisoner, maybe a guest, maybe another thief that challenges them to a heist-off. Have the party meet them and instead of exploring they spend the rest of the session having a chat, geting some exposition etc..

3) Subvert what they are doing. In 5th edition no powerful wizard would becaught without forbidance protecting their tower - so they can't teleport in but need to climb in. Taking the time to actually see the building and maybe understand a bit of what is inside it, might dissuade them from going any further.

4) Make them decide not to go - they want to sleep first, disrupt their sleep. Make other events and enemies catch up with them. Some things that could happen anytime happen now. Having a plot where a dozen things are happening at once means there are many more options for gently steering the party away from an action, not forever, but just for long enough you get time to prepare.

kyoryu
2021-01-27, 11:47 AM
Prep to improvise.

Have a number of critters available that you're ready to run with. Not necessarily "encounters", but pieces of encounters. Put them together, and be ready to let the PCs flee if there's too much opposition (you *will* make mistakes).

Ideally have some stock floorplans you can use. Yes, it will eventually become obvious they're stock. No, nobody will care.

Once you start improvising, you really open yourself up to how things go... specifically, it becomes feasible for the players to *lose*, especially if you allow them to escape. So how I start planning a scene is something like this:

1) What do the players want?
2) Is it reasonable? (Hint: Presume that if the players think it's reasonable, it's probably reasonable)
3) What can they reasonably get if they're successful?
4) Who wants to stop them, or why is it difficult? If the answer is "nobody, and for no reason" then just give them what they want and go to the actually interesting bits.
5) What happens if they lose? Death is usually not the best option.

A ton of this is implicit in "what the players decide to do". That will suggest the opposition.

As far as "what happens if they lose", I highly suggest this article: https://io9.gizmodo.com/why-you-should-never-write-action-scenes-into-your-tent-511712234

Other resources to have ready can include some kind of NPC personality generator (I personally like Short Order Heroes http://calicogames.com/index.html) to help give some personality. Random physical descriptions can help. A list of names is critical.

The ultimate helper though is just any die you have lying around. Any time you're not sure of something, roll a die and take the result. That can provide an inspiration to roll with. "How straight is this guy playing here?". Roll a die. High? He's totally up front. Low, he's deceiving in some way and you can run with that. The goal of these kind of randomizers is not to tell you what is happening, but to help spark you in an interesting direction where you can take over.

And remember that most of the time you don't need to know everything about a situation up front. That can be filled in over time. You need enough to make the scene work.

Make notes about important things and new NPCs, especially ones that the PCs gravitate to or seem to find interesting! You can use these notes to ensure consistency later on and build off of what happens during play.

kyoryu
2021-01-27, 11:49 AM
Absolutely, warn the players before you TPK them.

Also worth asking if they've paid dues with the local thieves guild and gotten authorization for this job? Since the powerful Wizard will have either paid them off, or have good enough defenses it doesn't need to. Worth knowing if you're gonna have thieves and assassins crawling out of the woodwork if you survive.

Always a good idea to point out things when players haven't even considered the basics.

The trick here is remembering that "the basics" are probably the basics in your head but the players don't fully know how the world works.

The characters however likely would, at least to the extent of not doing suicidal things.

Tanarii
2021-01-27, 12:01 PM
The trick here is remembering that "the basics" are probably the basics in your head but the players don't fully know how the world works.

The characters however likely would, at least to the extent of not doing suicidal things.Sure, if they're brand new to FRPGs, then they can be excused for not knowing about powerful Wizards defending themselves and thieves guilds protection rackets.

FrogInATopHat
2021-01-27, 12:43 PM
Sure, if they're brand new to FRPGs...

And fantasy as a genre in general.

kyoryu
2021-01-27, 03:17 PM
Not every fantasy city in every fantasy world has thieves guilds organized enough to run comprehensive protection schemes, and to put out mass attacks on people working without their blessings.

Telling the players things their characters would know is always a good idea, no matter how obvious you think it is. Because what's obvious to you isn't necessarily obvious to everyone.

icefractal
2021-01-27, 05:07 PM
Sure, if they're brand new to FRPGs, then they can be excused for not knowing about powerful Wizards defending themselves and thieves guilds protection rackets.
Powerful Wizards have powerful defenses, sure. But "Thieves' Guilds"? Those aren't really a thing in many settings, especially not as an official organization that a non-criminal mage would have an arrangement with.

I mean, would Tony Stark pay an organized crime group to guard his tower? I don't think so.
(Now watch, it'll turn out that very thing happened in some comic I haven't read. Oh well.)


On topic of the OP, I find what can be helpful in improvising NPC stats is to decide on what the level curve looks like and then determine some benchmarks based on that.

So for example, let's say I decide a curve like this:
1-4 : Common; most people fall into this category; you can easily find a 4th level ___ for hire.
5-8 : Uncommon; a relatively small slice of the population, but still lots of people in absolute terms; an "elite ___" probably falls in this range.
9-12 : Rare; not that many people reach it, and they're more likely doing things like running organizations than being available for hire.
13-16 : Very Rare; there may only be a few people in a given speciality of this level in the entire world. You want a 16th level good-aligned Cleric? Well that's the High Ecclesiarch of Pelor, maybe if you're notable yourself you can make an appointment to see her.
17-20 : Legendary; at a given point in time people of this level may or may not exist. Like, there is an 18th level Wizard, although he only visits the material plane twice a year. There used to be a 19th level Druid, but they died and nobody else has reached that degree of natural affinity yet.

Then with that in mind, you can pre-calculate things like this:
Unremarkable Professional: 2 ranks + 3 class + 0 stat = +5
Skilled Professional: 4 ranks + 3 class + 3 stat/trait/feat = +10
Elite: 6 ranks + 3 class + 3 stat + 3 trait/feat/item = +15
City's Best: 8 ranks + 3 class + 4 stat + 5 feats + 5 item = +25

And then use the appropriate rating, or roll between the applicable ones if you're not sure.

Quertus
2021-01-27, 11:01 PM
Whenever possible, I like to end the season with a simple question: "what are we doing next session?". So I wouldn't *start* a session with "you want to rescue a guy - how do you want to go about it?", I'd *end* a session on that note.

If I immediately see things that the PCs would know (like powerful Wizard wards or Thief Guild protection rackets), I'd inform the players, and ask the classic "are you sure?".


That being said, *puts on fireproof vest* there's nothing wrong with a bit of railroading if you're up front about the game NOT being a sandbox to the players. If you want the quest giver to survive just say: "no you do not sneak attack the quest giver, stop disrupting the game because the alternative is that you kill the quest giver and then we all go home."
I know this forum it's popular to say that the DM should always go with whatever shenanigans the players are doing and the DM should just be good at improvising or stop being a DM but that's not realistic. It takes years of practice to have a chance at being good at improv, some DMs never get good at it. You are allowed to say no.

With the wizard's tower I think it would be very easy to just say that the security is so good that they immediately fail and see no way to get in with no option to roll for it.

I think that most GMs should desire to reach that level of competence, yes. Should *want* to be able to build robust adventures that aren't plagued with "single point of failure" issues. Should aspire to be able to roll with the PCs' plans.

But you need no fireproof vestments to protect your hide from me for the notion of upfront player buy-in. If you successfully communicate the type of game you want to run, and the players buy into that, and everyone has fun, great!

Just… keep your eyes & ears open, that the players may not have heard and agreed to what you thought you communicated. And be prepared to go meta and communicate when something *isn't* rails, when they *actually* have choices and/or watch for their tells that they're looking for rails where none exist. (GM: "Time to go shopping" Players: <what does the GM want us to buy? Where does he want us to go? Where are the rails? Does he want us to split the party, or to stay together? Are we supposed to gather rumors first, so we know what to buy, or buy first, so that we're going in with equipment badly mismatched for the mission? I don't understand!>)

LibraryOgre
2021-01-27, 11:12 PM
So, another option:

Say yes, and have them do legwork to figure out what's going into the tower... and have them help you build it.

Obviously, he's going to have defenses... if the players say he's not, they're being silly.* What might those defenses look like? Have them give a few options. What might his servitors look like? Get the players to build his defenses for you in the course of the game, decide which of their options to take, and then present them with the results at the next game.

*A fun option, from Mary Kirchoff's "Night of the Eye", is that the mage HAS no defenses on his villa. It's just a place he stays, and occasionally has people over. He's actually got a teleportation circle in there, though, that takes him to his REAL home, where all of his valuables are kept.

Zaranthan
2021-02-05, 08:18 PM
*A fun option, from Mary Kirchoff's "Night of the Eye", is that the mage HAS no defenses on his villa. It's just a place he stays, and occasionally has people over. He's actually got a teleportation circle in there, though, that takes him to his REAL home, where all of his valuables are kept.

This was my knee-jerk reaction to the proposed scenario. The mage's tower isn't a vast impregnable fortress in the middle of town, it's in the middle of town! It's quite safe! The players wander through some very posh bedrooms, magical hot springs on the fifth floor, a friendly succubus in a spare room who politely turns away the PCs because she's got other business to attend to, etc. The players encounter little to no resistance, and accordingly find little to no treasure. Certainly not the powerful expensive magical artifacts they were expecting. Without the resident mage, the tower is a low-level dungeon and contains corresponding rewards for its plunder. Let the players have their payout, but fall short of what they wanted, since they've intentionally sought a meager challenge.

If you want the experience to feel like part of your campaign, throw in some breadcrumbs pointing them back toward the ideas you had in mind. The mage has a copy of that jail map in his study. Another flyer for the monster hunt hangs from his pegboard. A hook for proving the priest's innocence (one of the ones you've already come up with but the party missed) is just lying in plain sight.

False God
2021-02-06, 12:23 PM
I never DMed a game, because I'm too anxious. One thing I am anxious of is handling player's improvisation - mechanically.

I don't want to be railroading - I enjoy games that are more free-form. Of course, I will make and structure hypothetical plot, with major NPCs, their motivations and so on - but I fully expect players to not make the decisions I thought of.

But, how do I hande such instances mechanically?

For example, imagine this situation. Party needs help of a priest who knows how to defeat the Demon Lord. Unfortunately, such priest was put in jail because of false accusations of him working for demons.
I thought of three ways my party could solve the problem: bust him out by force (I made a map of the jail and some encounters there), prove his innocence (I planted some hooks that players could find), or make a big financial pledge for him (there is a well-paying contract for monster hunting that will exactly cover the price, and I prepared the monster encounters).

But then, for example, the party learns that a powerful mage lives in this city, but he is away for a buisness trip and will not come back for a few weeks (I made it so they would not try to get his help with this problem). And a party rogue has a genius idea - let's rob the mage's tower, and either find some artifact they can use to teleport a priest out of jail, or, worst case scenario, sell all goods to the underworld dealers and get the money to bail out the priest!

And, in this hypothetical example, I'm sitting speechless and unsure what to do.
It's just another part of the "bust him out" route, just with extra steps. If you think it's a possibility, I'd stat up the mage's tower with a general layout, defenses, and list of items and their location. If the players break into the Mage Tower, you're prepped! If they don't, you've got a nice little layout for if the party ever needs to go there later or something.


The easy way is to railroad them. Rock falls, the wizard teleports back from the trip. But it is not fun.
It would not be unreasonable for Mr Wizard to have some kind of alarm system that would alert him of a break-in, so he could immediately teleport back.


The hard way is to make something on the fly. I don't have problems with having to roleplay it, I'm good with improvisation. I have problems with mechanical part - I did not prepare any encounters that would seem logical in a mage's tower. If the tower is guarded by an elaborate weave of traps that activate golems and summon magic flying worms - what are the stats of the golems and the worms? Should I stop the session, go to Google or my paper Bestiary and construct an encounter while players are bored of waiting?.. Or should I wing it and have a risk of wiping the players (or making an encounter extremely easy and non-satisfying?).
Well, you're here now so why not plan something out now? At least lightly sketch it out. I mean golems and magic worms and an elaborate weave of traps, go pick some of those things out, assemble them into the Mage Tower and boom, prepared!


And such anxiety consumes me in all instances of going off rails. If a player wants to cast a Charm on a merchant to make him give a discount - what should I do mechanically, how high is his Will save? If a players wants to Sneak Attack a questgiver, how much Flat-Footed AC does she have?..
How can I handle this mechanical improvisation?
IMO, most people are just people, they might have a +1 or a +2 bonus somewhere, a Merchant may be smart, so +1 Will saves. A Soldier may be tough so +1 Fort (if they don't have like, 5 levels of Fighter or something).

Ultimately my experience is that you prepare a dozen things, and the players will utilize 2 or 3 of them. Those other things are still prepared, and make it easier to prep more going forward. The best things to prepare are the big things. The Jail. The Mage Tower. The Dungeon. The details of what's in them? Less important. You can fill them up with an assortment of appropriate things once you get there.

A lot of times you just go "Well, this is a pretty average Joe Town Guard, so, 3rd level fighter with good Strength." And yeah, kinda wing it. He'll have a whopping ~30hp, 15AC(Leather +2, shield+2, +1 dex(12)), +3BAB and +3(16 str) to damage and some really pathetic will saves. Boom you have a generic town guard. Copy pasta as many times as you need for more guards.

Plan the Big Stuff. Wing the Small Stuff.

anthon
2021-02-06, 12:38 PM
mage tower robbing:

i had a powerful wizard once, he was immune to fire and negative energy. He had some resist/immunities to other stuff because he was multiclass.

But there were things he was totally not immune to. Like cold.

Now, lets assume for a minute he was your wizard in the tower.

And your thief was a spell user/magic item buyer, and he went in there to set up a cold trap, like a bear trap tied to a cone of cold.

There's no legitimate reason for my powerful wizard in his tower to not get frost bite. He would survive the cone of cold, because frankly, he had lots of hit points.

But he wouldn't be immune. As DM, i wouldn't handwavium some "anti frostbear trap protection field" into existence. I hadn't thought of frost beartraps, so why would they suddenly exist in my universe just to spite my player's creative ideas?


And thus you should run all scenarios.

it is what it is. If it's clever, and you didn't plan for it, neither did the NPCs.

if the NPCs are insanely old or insanely wise/intelligent (like max character mental stat or above, 1000+ years old, etc.) you can make a single "maybe they would have planned for this sort of thing" check that you, a normal human being might have missed. But don't make that check easy.

If they have the wisdom of Athena, maybe its 55-75%, but if they are merely a Genius, don't give them better than 50/50.

anthon
2021-02-06, 12:46 PM
Absolutely, warn the players before you TPK them.


i agree with this sentiment. Just be aware you will get some players who are trying to ride the game badly and sometimes they need to know they can die. So one or two TPK warnings and if they are still a bucket of chuckles, let the dice fall where they may. You can give them slight hints like a disapproving glance or brooding "hmnn".

Mutazoia
2021-02-08, 12:21 AM
Well, in your example I would be sure to let the players make pretty easy Int/knowledge rolls to know that:


The Wizard is much higher level than the players
Wizards never leave their towers unguarded
The amount of time and resources they are going to have to expend trying to rob the Wizard will be dungeon crawl level difficulty at least.
They can't rescue the Priest if they are dead or in jail themselves.


And that's just the beginning. What alignment are the characters? Unless they are a lot lower on the morals scale than Neutral Good, they probably won't have the moral infortitude to rob an innocent bystander.

Or you could just let the rogue case the place and find out it's going to be too tough of a nut to crack at their level.

Or you could let them break in and find out that the Wizard doesn't just leave his valuables laying around for would-be thieves and has an account at the local bank.

Or you could let them break in and found out that the Wizard is actually dead broke and isn't on vacation, he's been evicted, and that the place is completely empty.

Basically, you will eventually develop the creative muscle to be able to come up with stuff on the fly. That kind of skill comes with experience. The more experience you get, the better your off-the-cuff responses to player Machiavellianism will get.

aglondier
2021-02-08, 01:45 AM
If you really want to mess with the players, make it a milk run. The mage had no defences. The party can literally open his unlocked door, wander through his house, take what they like, and leave. Nothing there to stop them...


...except the possible realisation that this is the home of a very powerful spellcaster, who will want his stuff back.

They plan to pawn the stuff? Noone, not even the local thieves guild, will fence that stuff. In fact, word spreads and shops close when they see the pcs approach. The common folk clear the streets, locking doors and shutters until they pass.

After a few days of this have a messenger deliver a scroll to the most lawful party member, it's an itemised bill for everything they stole, and an indentured servitude contract as a repayment method. No threats, no unpleasantness...for now...

If they return everything, the mage sends them on a quest or six. If they keep everything, he binds them with geas/quest spells...

Quertus
2021-02-08, 04:17 PM
If you really want to mess with the players, make it a milk run. The mage had no defences. The party can literally open his unlocked door, wander through his house, take what they like, and leave. Nothing there to stop them...


...except the possible realisation that this is the home of a very powerful spellcaster, who will want his stuff back.

They plan to pawn the stuff? Noone, not even the local thieves guild, will fence that stuff. In fact, word spreads and shops close when they see the pcs approach. The common folk clear the streets, locking doors and shutters until they pass.

After a few days of this have a messenger deliver a scroll to the most lawful party member, it's an itemised bill for everything they stole, and an indentured servitude contract as a repayment method. No threats, no unpleasantness...for now...

If they return everything, the mage sends them on a quest or six. If they keep everything, he binds them with geas/quest spells...

I had just come back to say almost exactly this, as that's not entirely unlike how Quertus, my signature academia mage for whom this account is named, guards his towers.

BRC
2021-02-08, 07:01 PM
Try to time major decisions to the end of the night? Improvisation is great, but there’s a difference between expecting a GM to have a character react to a curveball and prepare an entire dungeon in 15 seconds.


This is the most important lesson, IMO.

I usually end each session by saying "Okay, so what are you planning to do next", and then making the following session about resolving that plan.

Which is to say, don't say "In this session, they are going to get a priest out of jail" and plan 4 sessions around different ways to do that.

instead, have them discover that the priest is in jail near the end of the session, let them plot, scheme, and debate how they want to try to solve this, and then use that decision to plan out the next session. Get used to this pattern,
Open the session with "Last time, you all decided to solve problem X by doing Y", then end the session with them getting a new problem and picking a direction to go with it.

Keep your scenario building loose enough that you can adapt things a little on the fly mid-session, and prepare a couple alternate routes (For example, if they are breaking into the jail, be prepared for them to try to use disguises and cunning rather than brute force), and don't be afraid to buy yourself a little time to prep.


Also, almost every GM i've met is a better improviser than they think they are. If you sit there and try to consider every hypothetical you'll drive yourself mad, but when you're in the seat and the players go off the rails, if you've built a properly fluid scenario and have a good enough sense of the state of the gameworld, you can usually work out "Okay, so if you tried that, here is what would happen".


The key on that latter front is to avoid thinking of things as just a set of encounters or puzzles, but as a functional place.

This is the Prison, there are guards, prisoners, a warden. The guards patrol regularly, the Warden holds the keys. If a Guard spots intruders, they'll try to raise the alarm and summon more help. Keep these things in mind and you'll be pretty capable of assembling somethign when the PC's try to throw something together.

Altheus
2021-02-09, 06:51 AM
What I do in this situation is to remember that everything doesn't need a full statblock.

Instead, pick a number for an environment, say the mages private bedchamber is number 16. Anything encountered in that environment has ac16, any saves are dc 16.

Regarding traps, use the difficulty of the room as the target to find and disarm and set the damage at something unpleasant. 5d6 is a good number for most purposes assuming these traps are serious. Then increase it by 6 because you're probably going soft on them.

Phhase
2021-02-10, 10:39 PM
Boy, I'd love to play an example game with you just to see where you're at. I'm one of THOSE, the ones that follow the ethos that if they're making a basic weapon attack roll with no frills, something is wrong. Here are some pointers to get you started:

Consider the state, location, and disposition of the following:
Authority figures, and their resources
Success and failure states for all involved parties in a scenario
What happens if the players do nothing/something that goes in a third direction that does not disrupt the systems you have in place
Something you can throw at the players as filler, while still allowing the situation to make logical sense
How the information flows (Who sees the players? Who can they tell?)
How NPCs live their lives (So as per your wizard's tower example, said tower would likely have lots of dangerous magical defenses and traps befitting a high level wizard - a potentially harrowing yet interesting dungeon!)

MrZJunior
2021-02-18, 07:17 AM
A couple sessions back my players did something I totally did not expect. They managed to totally rearrange the geopolitics of the world in the second session.

I was upfront with them and said I was not at all prepared for this, apologized, and ended the session an hour early.

quinron
2021-02-18, 04:35 PM
A couple sessions back my players did something I totally did not expect. They managed to totally rearrange the geopolitics of the world in the second session.

I was upfront with them and said I was not at all prepared for this, apologized, and ended the session an hour early.

Okay, I have to know what they did.

Yora
2021-02-18, 04:56 PM
I always feel that everything becomes much more important and interesting if you can say the whole time "remember, all of this is because of you!"

OldTrees1
2021-02-18, 07:56 PM
I always feel that everything becomes much more important and interesting if you can say the whole time "remember, all of this is because of you!"

Indeed! I am currently living that up right now.

My PCs decided to release 4 powerful souls that I did not predict they would release. That has basically rewritten the endings and added a new epilogue chapter addressing these 4 powerful entities and the consequences of their release.

So how did I mechanically handle that player improvisation?
I already had some notes about what those entities were and how they were held. I knew what would happen if the players did actions A thru Y. When the players went with action Z, I asked them for details on what they were doing. That gave them time to discuss / speak and give me time to think. I compared action Z against the outcomes I knew and I thought about how these souls were held. Based upon that time and those comparisons, I was able to figure out that the souls being released was my best guess at what action Z should do in this context. So I went with that outcome. The players released the souls and I described what they observed. Cut to a couple months later and they are now dealing with the result of the outcome. In this case the couple months of IRL time helped me figure out important but time consuming things like stats for these entities. Luckily I could delay that prep until after the session because it was not immediately required.

MrZJunior
2021-02-19, 04:47 PM
Okay, I have to know what they did.

I was expecting the campaign to revolve around a siege of a particular city. I was going to have the party do tasks relating to helping the defenders. Instead they opened the gates.

Now the centaurs have taken over the imperial capital, their khan is the new emperor, and the party is helping him consolidate his power.

BRC
2021-02-19, 04:59 PM
I was expecting the campaign to revolve around a siege of a particular city. I was going to have the party do tasks relating to helping the defenders. Instead they opened the gates.

Now the centaurs have taken over the imperial capital, their khan is the new emperor, and the party is helping him consolidate his power.
Good on you for rolling with that, but here is another note.


It's okay to request that the players buy-in to the premise of the campaign, at least in the most general sense, and especially at the start.


If the GM says "This campaign is about defending this city from a siege, build characters who would involve themselves in the effort to defend this city from a siege", that's fine. As the GM, you are not obligated to accept every rules-legal character concept that arrives at your table, and making sure everybody is on the same page is a good step to running any game.
It's also a good way to check to make sure the players are going to be engaged in the story you're interested in telling, and to avoid frustrating character conflicts.



For example, if one player wants to play a Noble Paladin who Destroys Evil, and the other wants to play a Demon Worshipper, you should make sure that they both understand that they will be sharing a party and table with the other character.

What's more, even if they like the idea of "We will be at each other's throats constantly", you should probably check with the rest of the group to make sure they're okay with "hey, a lot of the game is going to be these two characters fighting each other until they can be wrangled back into cooperation".

MrZJunior
2021-02-19, 09:10 PM
I don't intend to sound unhappy, I'm actually quite pleased. I think it's great that my players did something so unexpected. My favorite thing about RPGs is how flexible they are. You can do just about anything. It's not like a video game where you are limited to what the designers thought of and had the time and resources to implement. I like to present people with a scenario and see what they do.

Calthropstu
2021-02-19, 10:39 PM
I am responding to the original question.

Short answer: You don't.
Long answer?
You flesh out a realistic high level wizards defenses, complete with deadly traps that can kill the characters. You have them roll a wisdom check to realise how stupidly dangerous it is. Then go all out creating his tower. Have a succubus disguised as a dryad inside a magic circle begging for their help. Add a few deadly traps, hiding most of the wizards truly valuable objects inside secret chest and the like. If they succeed in robbing the tower, all they'll really get is a few grand in gold, enmity from the mage in question, a cursed item left as a trap and a released succubus... whom they will like try to extort in her "dryad" form. (if they extort her for sex boy are they screwed... heh.)

Have the wizard's quasit or imp familiar secretly fly around setting (and manually resetting) traps invisibly. Have a cloudkill effect (which the familiar is immune to) go off. (Any wizard with a bound creature would have such an effect to prevent ants or similar from walking across summon circles).

Stress how stupidly dangerous this is. If they say "we can handle it" and die en masse so be it.