SangoProduction
2021-01-25, 01:17 PM
Wow. 2 in one day. Why? Well, because I wanted to. Enough intro, onto the Dual Wielding sphere!
Post-Review Analysis: It's cool. If you're considering the rider effects you can add to the extra attack, it probably comes out quite comparably, if not favorably, to two handed fighting. As far as raw damage goes, unless you're hitching some Sneak Attack or what have you to the bonus attack, two handed is still probably superior...and good. That's a good thing. If this was always straight up superior, regardless of goal or circumstance, that would be horrible design.
Full or Partial BAB: As is the case with basically all BAB scaling spheres, I've seen so far, you will go massive gulfs of BAB gain without increasing the effectiveness of any of your talents. So, again, feel free to use whatever BAB progression you feel like here.
Flex Talents: There really aren't any truly situational talents that you wouldn't simply want in your build at all times. Stretching as hard as we can, Asynchronous Swing could allow you to overcome a low level damage reduction such as that from a skeleton or zombie.
Ranking system:
(S) Superb: You always want this. It's awesome.
(G) Good: You would certainly not complain about having this, especially in the right builds / situations.
(B) Bad: While perhaps better than nothing, you are giving up something for it, so probably shouldn't without a good reason.
(N) No.
<Angle brackets> around a rating indicates situational usefulness, and how good it is in that favorable situation.
- Special Ratings:
(C) Cheese: A talent so broken that it will be instantly banned if you use it as you could.
(I) Impossible: Can't be rated because it is just not defined enough to give a meaningful rating - it depends too much on DM ruling, or personal use. I'll just place it where I guess the average result would put it.
(F) Flavor: This indicates that the main draw to the talent is going to be its inherent fluff or flavor, rather than raw power or utility.
Base Sphere
Dual Attack: When making an attack action with a light or one-handed weapon, make an additional one with another weapon in your off hand. Both at -2 penalties. (Penalties doubled if you don't use a light weapon.)
It doesn't state it out right, but I do just assume that if your initial attack action granted more than 1 attack, the -2 penalty applies to all subsequent attacks of said attack action.
A strict raw reading says that you add 1/2 your strength to off hand attacks...even with guns and crossbows, as it makes no distinction on melee or ranged in that line. Thus why RAW isn't everything.
But otherwise, it's basically TWF, but as a talent. Practitioners get more talents than most characters get feats, so that is a pretty decent trade, even before considering other implications, such as the action cost also being lower.
Since it's all just "general" talents, I'm going to take creative license to create my own categories.
Gemini Dancer (<C>): For a swift action, effectively gain +5 to hit, as far as attack rider effects are concerned (including flat damage). You can make that really powerful. But it is using a swift action... unless you expend martial focus to make it last for [practitioner modifier] rounds. (Yes, like all stances.) Even when not cheesing with rider effects out the wazoo, it's nice to get to at least deal a bit of damage on a miss.
Balanced Blows (S): Reduces attack penalties by half, to a minimum of -1. That's pretty awesome. Even at its minimum usefulness, it's still basically weapon focus for your two weapons.
Following Strike (G-S): Gain a bonus off hand attack on hitting with both weapons. The wording implies intent to allow AoOs to count towards this, but free actions must be taken on your turn unless otherwise specified. At least, as far as I understand it.
Mixed Defense (G-S): Give up a ranged attack to make a ranged attack (as an AoO). On success, gain +2 AC and attack against them until end of your next turn. Which completely negates the typical penalties of Dual Attack.
Perfect Set-Up (I): The wording is so ****ed up that I can't make heads or tails of it. Either it's granting a bonus main hand attack, or letting you convert a main hand attack into a touch attack. I don't know which, and it's really upsetting. And it gives no context as to whether it'd be like Dual Attack, and probably apply to all main hand attacks, or if it's only affecting a single one.
Dual Opportunity (G): Make an off hand attack, once per round, on an AoO. The right build can make great use of that.
Mixed Assault (B-G, F): The relatively minor bonus to damage applies regardless of your weapon loadout. But also don't provoke while firing or reloading if you are holding a melee weapon. Much more cool than practical.
Mercurial Flow (B-G): Obviously, this gets better if you have an excessive amount of strength and added damage that depends on handedness. Generally this is just so-so.
Synchronous Accuracy (B): When you miss with your main hand, expend martial focus and immediate action to make an offhand attack, and a buff which allows you to do the same when you later miss a main hand attack until your next turn. So...cool. I won't say it's horrible, because it's not. I won't say it's good. It's just there.
Snapping Crab (N-B): Meh. Spend a swift action before you attack. And if you miss a melee attack, and your target attacks you with a melee attack, you get to make an AoO against them. Meh.
Two In The Hand (N): Gain reach, if you already were in range to whack someone with your main hand. So... I guess it's useful if your off hand arm gets selectively shrunk.
Critical Follow Up (N): Even if you're doing it optimally, and have Asynchronous Swing bumping the damage of your offhand to 1d8, and picking a x3 base crit, this is only giving you an average of 0.45 added damage. Take weapon specialization or power attack, dude. It's better, trust me. And hey, those will improve your crits too! Win-win!These talents either grant buffs, bonus attacks or reduce the penalties.
Tandem Offensive (S+): The number one hinderance to TWF (aside from just being numerically inferior to THF) is the fact that you're literally doubling your weapon costs. This removes that stupid mistake that PF could have solved when it ported over the rules from 3.5.
Asynchronous Swing (G): Requires different weapons, but it lets you the best weapon die size, as well as combine the two weapons' damage types. Conceptually, it's pretty terrifying to get simultaneously stabbed and crushed by a mace.
Paired Proficiency (B-G): That one bit saying " applying a feat that requires a specific type of weapon on a weapon that does not meet these prerequisites" is an illegal choice... kind of kills the point of it. But just assume that it allows for Weapon Focus and what not to apply to off-hand, if it applies to main hand. And vice versa at BAB 10.These talents give flexibility, power and cost savings by allowing you to transfer properties from one of your weapons to the other.
Strategic Set-Up (G-S): This provides anywhere from a +1 to +4 (or more, if you homebrew beyond Colossal) bonus on all CM that you use in place of your off hand attack, if you hit with your main hand. Imagine taking all the Improved X maneuver feats in 1 talent. It's actually not that valuable, because not all CM are available by exchanging your offhand attack, and of those that are, you probably don't have the infinite talents and feats to take advantage of each of them. But still, a bonus is a bonus and CM users need lots of bonuses.
Dancing Display (G, F): Are you making a bunch of attacks with one handed weapons in a round where you use an attack action? Are you targeting the floor for AC 5? Then congratulations. I'll see you on the autobahn. Attacks of opportunity also work.
High-Low Combination (G): Get to give up your off hand attack to make a free trip attempt, if you hit with your main hand. Explicitly works with ranged weapons. You can make the decision after you make your main hand attack, though DMs might require you do it before rolling your offhand.
Impossible Reload (G, F): Iconic gunslinging galore. No need for a third arm, animated magazines, or living hair. You just get to reload as though you had hands available. Hell yes. (Oh, also reduced penalties for attacking with one handed ranged weapons.)
Repositioning Routine (B-G): Repositioning is a horrible CM, in 90% of circumstances. So why's this so high? Because you just get it passively, and it explicitly works with ranged. It might not be great, but it is a rider effect that can occasionally be useful.
Focusing Defense (N-B): Move action to regain martial focus, and all you get out of it is +1 to AC / CMD. Sad face. But Dancing Display gets you your movement, so maybe not the most absurd thing to give up
Cunning Combo (N-B): You give up an attack in order to give a slight boost, and a slight penalty, to another attack. This is much better if you've got Duelist sphere, which I'm assuming you do, if you're looking to take this feat. Generally not ideal regardless. And taking the -2 really cancels out much of the benefits you get from feinting.
Combo Maneuvers (N-B): If you can declare your dual attack after you already failed your attempt, then awesome, you get compensation attacks. If not, never take this. Making your CMB high enough to reliably do something on your turn (especially as you gain levels) is very difficult. Taking a penalty isn't what you want.These talents have interactions with Combat Maneuvers or misc. combat actions
Concentrated Breakdown (G-S): It's a good duration penalty that can ramp, can't be removed early and is basically just a passive proc. It's not S+, as the penalties it applies are rather tame...which is pretty nice. You might actually get to use it.
Dizzying Combination (B): On hitting with both weapons, force a reflex save, or else they take -2 to reflex saves and reduced movement. Takes no special action from you (ie. is passive), and it lasts a minute unless they remove it. But it's a really tiny penalty.
Drumroll (B): Conditionally grants battered and a -2 to AoOs until the end of your next turn. But it's entirely passive. So nothing incredible, but it's there.
Defensive Whirl (N): OK. A passive -1 to attack for 1 round when you hit with both weapons is fine - not good, but fine - a solid B to N-B. -1 to attacks specifically against you is not fine. Even a conditional +1 AC would still be worse than the nonconditional Dodge feat.
These talents grant penalties to your foes. Yay.
Post-Review Analysis: It's cool. If you're considering the rider effects you can add to the extra attack, it probably comes out quite comparably, if not favorably, to two handed fighting. As far as raw damage goes, unless you're hitching some Sneak Attack or what have you to the bonus attack, two handed is still probably superior...and good. That's a good thing. If this was always straight up superior, regardless of goal or circumstance, that would be horrible design.
Full or Partial BAB: As is the case with basically all BAB scaling spheres, I've seen so far, you will go massive gulfs of BAB gain without increasing the effectiveness of any of your talents. So, again, feel free to use whatever BAB progression you feel like here.
Flex Talents: There really aren't any truly situational talents that you wouldn't simply want in your build at all times. Stretching as hard as we can, Asynchronous Swing could allow you to overcome a low level damage reduction such as that from a skeleton or zombie.
Ranking system:
(S) Superb: You always want this. It's awesome.
(G) Good: You would certainly not complain about having this, especially in the right builds / situations.
(B) Bad: While perhaps better than nothing, you are giving up something for it, so probably shouldn't without a good reason.
(N) No.
<Angle brackets> around a rating indicates situational usefulness, and how good it is in that favorable situation.
- Special Ratings:
(C) Cheese: A talent so broken that it will be instantly banned if you use it as you could.
(I) Impossible: Can't be rated because it is just not defined enough to give a meaningful rating - it depends too much on DM ruling, or personal use. I'll just place it where I guess the average result would put it.
(F) Flavor: This indicates that the main draw to the talent is going to be its inherent fluff or flavor, rather than raw power or utility.
Base Sphere
Dual Attack: When making an attack action with a light or one-handed weapon, make an additional one with another weapon in your off hand. Both at -2 penalties. (Penalties doubled if you don't use a light weapon.)
It doesn't state it out right, but I do just assume that if your initial attack action granted more than 1 attack, the -2 penalty applies to all subsequent attacks of said attack action.
A strict raw reading says that you add 1/2 your strength to off hand attacks...even with guns and crossbows, as it makes no distinction on melee or ranged in that line. Thus why RAW isn't everything.
But otherwise, it's basically TWF, but as a talent. Practitioners get more talents than most characters get feats, so that is a pretty decent trade, even before considering other implications, such as the action cost also being lower.
Since it's all just "general" talents, I'm going to take creative license to create my own categories.
Gemini Dancer (<C>): For a swift action, effectively gain +5 to hit, as far as attack rider effects are concerned (including flat damage). You can make that really powerful. But it is using a swift action... unless you expend martial focus to make it last for [practitioner modifier] rounds. (Yes, like all stances.) Even when not cheesing with rider effects out the wazoo, it's nice to get to at least deal a bit of damage on a miss.
Balanced Blows (S): Reduces attack penalties by half, to a minimum of -1. That's pretty awesome. Even at its minimum usefulness, it's still basically weapon focus for your two weapons.
Following Strike (G-S): Gain a bonus off hand attack on hitting with both weapons. The wording implies intent to allow AoOs to count towards this, but free actions must be taken on your turn unless otherwise specified. At least, as far as I understand it.
Mixed Defense (G-S): Give up a ranged attack to make a ranged attack (as an AoO). On success, gain +2 AC and attack against them until end of your next turn. Which completely negates the typical penalties of Dual Attack.
Perfect Set-Up (I): The wording is so ****ed up that I can't make heads or tails of it. Either it's granting a bonus main hand attack, or letting you convert a main hand attack into a touch attack. I don't know which, and it's really upsetting. And it gives no context as to whether it'd be like Dual Attack, and probably apply to all main hand attacks, or if it's only affecting a single one.
Dual Opportunity (G): Make an off hand attack, once per round, on an AoO. The right build can make great use of that.
Mixed Assault (B-G, F): The relatively minor bonus to damage applies regardless of your weapon loadout. But also don't provoke while firing or reloading if you are holding a melee weapon. Much more cool than practical.
Mercurial Flow (B-G): Obviously, this gets better if you have an excessive amount of strength and added damage that depends on handedness. Generally this is just so-so.
Synchronous Accuracy (B): When you miss with your main hand, expend martial focus and immediate action to make an offhand attack, and a buff which allows you to do the same when you later miss a main hand attack until your next turn. So...cool. I won't say it's horrible, because it's not. I won't say it's good. It's just there.
Snapping Crab (N-B): Meh. Spend a swift action before you attack. And if you miss a melee attack, and your target attacks you with a melee attack, you get to make an AoO against them. Meh.
Two In The Hand (N): Gain reach, if you already were in range to whack someone with your main hand. So... I guess it's useful if your off hand arm gets selectively shrunk.
Critical Follow Up (N): Even if you're doing it optimally, and have Asynchronous Swing bumping the damage of your offhand to 1d8, and picking a x3 base crit, this is only giving you an average of 0.45 added damage. Take weapon specialization or power attack, dude. It's better, trust me. And hey, those will improve your crits too! Win-win!These talents either grant buffs, bonus attacks or reduce the penalties.
Tandem Offensive (S+): The number one hinderance to TWF (aside from just being numerically inferior to THF) is the fact that you're literally doubling your weapon costs. This removes that stupid mistake that PF could have solved when it ported over the rules from 3.5.
Asynchronous Swing (G): Requires different weapons, but it lets you the best weapon die size, as well as combine the two weapons' damage types. Conceptually, it's pretty terrifying to get simultaneously stabbed and crushed by a mace.
Paired Proficiency (B-G): That one bit saying " applying a feat that requires a specific type of weapon on a weapon that does not meet these prerequisites" is an illegal choice... kind of kills the point of it. But just assume that it allows for Weapon Focus and what not to apply to off-hand, if it applies to main hand. And vice versa at BAB 10.These talents give flexibility, power and cost savings by allowing you to transfer properties from one of your weapons to the other.
Strategic Set-Up (G-S): This provides anywhere from a +1 to +4 (or more, if you homebrew beyond Colossal) bonus on all CM that you use in place of your off hand attack, if you hit with your main hand. Imagine taking all the Improved X maneuver feats in 1 talent. It's actually not that valuable, because not all CM are available by exchanging your offhand attack, and of those that are, you probably don't have the infinite talents and feats to take advantage of each of them. But still, a bonus is a bonus and CM users need lots of bonuses.
Dancing Display (G, F): Are you making a bunch of attacks with one handed weapons in a round where you use an attack action? Are you targeting the floor for AC 5? Then congratulations. I'll see you on the autobahn. Attacks of opportunity also work.
High-Low Combination (G): Get to give up your off hand attack to make a free trip attempt, if you hit with your main hand. Explicitly works with ranged weapons. You can make the decision after you make your main hand attack, though DMs might require you do it before rolling your offhand.
Impossible Reload (G, F): Iconic gunslinging galore. No need for a third arm, animated magazines, or living hair. You just get to reload as though you had hands available. Hell yes. (Oh, also reduced penalties for attacking with one handed ranged weapons.)
Repositioning Routine (B-G): Repositioning is a horrible CM, in 90% of circumstances. So why's this so high? Because you just get it passively, and it explicitly works with ranged. It might not be great, but it is a rider effect that can occasionally be useful.
Focusing Defense (N-B): Move action to regain martial focus, and all you get out of it is +1 to AC / CMD. Sad face. But Dancing Display gets you your movement, so maybe not the most absurd thing to give up
Cunning Combo (N-B): You give up an attack in order to give a slight boost, and a slight penalty, to another attack. This is much better if you've got Duelist sphere, which I'm assuming you do, if you're looking to take this feat. Generally not ideal regardless. And taking the -2 really cancels out much of the benefits you get from feinting.
Combo Maneuvers (N-B): If you can declare your dual attack after you already failed your attempt, then awesome, you get compensation attacks. If not, never take this. Making your CMB high enough to reliably do something on your turn (especially as you gain levels) is very difficult. Taking a penalty isn't what you want.These talents have interactions with Combat Maneuvers or misc. combat actions
Concentrated Breakdown (G-S): It's a good duration penalty that can ramp, can't be removed early and is basically just a passive proc. It's not S+, as the penalties it applies are rather tame...which is pretty nice. You might actually get to use it.
Dizzying Combination (B): On hitting with both weapons, force a reflex save, or else they take -2 to reflex saves and reduced movement. Takes no special action from you (ie. is passive), and it lasts a minute unless they remove it. But it's a really tiny penalty.
Drumroll (B): Conditionally grants battered and a -2 to AoOs until the end of your next turn. But it's entirely passive. So nothing incredible, but it's there.
Defensive Whirl (N): OK. A passive -1 to attack for 1 round when you hit with both weapons is fine - not good, but fine - a solid B to N-B. -1 to attacks specifically against you is not fine. Even a conditional +1 AC would still be worse than the nonconditional Dodge feat.
These talents grant penalties to your foes. Yay.