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DiscipleofBob
2007-11-07, 11:37 AM
So I'm making a level 10 character, well actually two characters, to join a friend's campaign. The first was a underground-style dwarf druid who could basically mob you with earth elementals. But that's not who I want to talk about.

For a long time I've looked at the Marshall and went, "Meh..." Minor support class, good auras, but medium BAB and not much else to work with. Then I actually made one, a level 10 half-elf (for skill bonuses and flavor reasons) Marshall. I have not done equipment yet, as I'm not sure how the DM is going to handle that. Good god is this class ridiculous.

The big deal isn't the Major Auras or the Grant Move Action (although those are nice), but the Minor Auras.

Now, while this character won't be spectacular in combat and could be taken down by any one of the PC's, that's not his point. He's a pseudo-skill monkey. Charisma is boosted as high as possible (18+2 for levels is 20.) Intelligence is close behind at 16 with everything else being really average. No, he won't have crazy Open Lock, Disable Device, Hide, or Move Silently like a rogue. Heck, I didn't even put any ranks in Spot or Listen.

Diplomacy has 12 ranks in it. Could've gone for 13, but it was easier to calculate at the time, and in retrospect I really don't need it. I get +2 for being Half-Elf (14), +4 from various synergy bonuses (I think it was Sense Motive and Bluff) (18), 3 more points from Skill Focus (Diplomacy) a class feature (21), and, thanks to one of my minor auras, double my charisma bonus (+5x2=+10) for a total of +31 before equipment, which will almost definitely include a Cloak of Charisma, some Potions of Eagle Splendor, and other Cha-boosting stuff. Thanks to my Minor Auras, I can add my Charisma to, among other things, any Charisma check or Charisma-based skill check, any Intelligence check or skill check, and all saves. I could also have gotten Wisdom and Dexterity based skill auras, which will basically let my skyrocketing Charisma score be added to any and every skill check, not to mention all of my allies' skill checks. The only skills I won't be competent in are those that I can't use untrained if I don't put ranks into them. Oh, and all Knowledges are class skills for the Martial. 12 ranks in Knowledge (Warfare) and Knowledge (Geography) since this is a large war-based campaign, and 5 ranks in pretty much every other important knowledge for synergy bonuses and competence.

Now, having all these ridiculously high skills and auras is nice, but what about in combat? Auras are active as long as I shout out tactics, and I can grant Move Actions, but other than that I have very little to do in combat. With only medium BAB and no direct combat-oriented class features or feats, I won't be able to do too much damage with any sort of weapon. Back to skills, which I have plenty of left. I spend another 12 skill points to take max ranks in UMD. Sure, it's cross-class, but I only need to beat a 20 DC to use any wand. 6 + twice my Charisma bonus is 16. So far, as long as I roll above a 3 I make it. For good measure, and I'm sure there are other Magic Devices with higher DC's I could use, I take Skill Focus (UMD). Now, I only fail using a wand on a natural 1, which I'm pretty sure the DM would have fail anyway. Now, I can use wands to buff my party, cast smaller healing spells, or just Magic Missile the enemy (better than nothing).

Finally, what better way to make use of an astronomical Charisma than with Leadership. Now, I'm not going to munchkin ridiculously powerful minions that ride ahead of me into combat. I'm just going to use the main cohort as an after-battle Healer and secretary, and all the minions I'm going to have as Rangers, Rogues, Scouts, Ninjas, etc. whose only task is to gather intelligence and map out the area so I can make good use of Knowledge (Geography) to come up with winning tactics.

To make a long story short (Peanut Gallery: TOO LATE!), I haven't even gotten to play this character yet OR buy equipment and I'm already loving how he's turned out. I now have a deep respect for the Marshall class.

Swooper
2007-11-07, 12:25 PM
...which will almost definitely include a Cloak of Charisma, some Potions of Eagle Splendor...
Those don't stack. Both enhancement bonuses. Just thought I'd point it out. Of course, if you only get a +2 cloak the potion gives a further +2, so it might still be worth it in some situations.

Other than that: Congratulations, you found a use for the Marshall it seems.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-07, 12:28 PM
Not really. There's a class that does most of this, and does it with more synergy, and it's Factotum. Which is even useful in combat without skills. Any class that has to rely on UMD'ing or diploing their way to victory is basely useless. It's different from a 'totum who gets a +700 bonus because of adding his level, or a bard who fascinates everyone, because it is based on a class skill.

DiscipleofBob
2007-11-07, 01:06 PM
Not really. There's a class that does most of this, and does it with more synergy, and it's Factotum. Which is even useful in combat without skills. Any class that has to rely on UMD'ing or diploing their way to victory is basely useless. It's different from a 'totum who gets a +700 bonus because of adding his level, or a bard who fascinates everyone, because it is based on a class skill.

Well, two things with the character need to be kept in mind:

1. Definitely not a combat-oriented character of any kind. The damage and everything will be the rest of the party's job. If anything, the character is a skill monkey.

2. The party is not comprised of powergamers, and mostly just plays for fun. Heck, the DM even allowed one person to be a Gestalt Monk/Arcane Disicple simply for flavor. So there won't be any Batman Wizards, Leap Attack/Shock Trooper/Pouncing Fighters or whatever, and no CODzilla or Druidzilla.

The character is a skill monkey, and a pretty good one. I don't think we have a rogue in the party, which would have the max ranks in Hide, Listen, Open Lock, Disable Device, UMD etc. to be more effective at the job, but the fact that the character can be be reasonably decent in ANY and EVERY skill at once unless it's something he can't use untrained (but even that can be solved by investing 1 or 2 skill points for an untrained only skill), I think makes the Marshall ridiculous. (I hesitate to use the word broken if only because that word means a completely different standard on these boards).

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-07, 01:29 PM
Skillmonkeys aren't rediculous. Unless they ARE on the role of skillmonkey, in which the marshal isn't. Skillmonkeys are based around skills and have some extra quirk for combat. A marshal is a buffer, not a skillmonkey, and that he can use skills that well is lucky synergy.

If you take a look, all the skillmonkeys have some thing that lets them contribute. Rogue has sneak, swordsage has maneuvers, Beguilers have spells, Factotums can do almost anything, and a savant is a savant period. The marshall? "I full attack it again, sigh". If anything, that's the fighter's role.

Draz74
2007-11-07, 01:31 PM
Yep ... this is a great example of how classes that are usually ignored, due to being "underpowered," are really fairly decent if they're in non-optimized games, and/or if they're surrounded by the right party composition.

And playing them, in such circumstances, is great, because it means a bit of variety from "the ol' usual stuff."

Edit: You only know 5 minor auras by this point. More would make your strategy work a lot better.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-07, 01:33 PM
Sure. However, Bob isprobably going to get bored in combat, and combat is the heart of anything but an immersive narrative game. His options are pretty limited, how many times can you apply skills in combat? One skill every three rounds, maybe?

Temp
2007-11-07, 01:43 PM
However, Bob isprobably going to get bored in combat, and combat is the heart of anything but an immersive narrative game. His options are pretty limited, how many times can you apply skills in combat? One skill every three rounds, maybe?
I'm not sure I see the difference between what a Marshal does in combat and what a Fighter does in combat.

An "Art of War" Aura Marshal with a fair strength will be almost identical to a Fighter. Probably have the same feats too because there aren't many to support the Marshal's buffing role.

DiscipleofBob
2007-11-07, 01:56 PM
Skillmonkeys aren't rediculous. Unless they ARE on the role of skillmonkey, in which the marshal isn't. Skillmonkeys are based around skills and have some extra quirk for combat. A marshal is a buffer, not a skillmonkey, and that he can use skills that well is lucky synergy.

If you take a look, all the skillmonkeys have some thing that lets them contribute. Rogue has sneak, swordsage has maneuvers, Beguilers have spells, Factotums can do almost anything, and a savant is a savant period. The marshall? "I full attack it again, sigh". If anything, that's the fighter's role.

Auras don't contribute? I happen to think that a minimum +5 to mine and all allies' saves as well as +2 to Attack and AC as well as a 10 foot enhancement bonus to the entire party is quite a contribution. As for what I'll "do" in combat besides provide auras, that's what UMD is there for. I'll already be pulling my weight with the auras. All I need to do is basically pick a few wands that might come in useful (CMW, Magic Missile, Bull's Strength and related buffs, Haste). Maybe this is just me, but the fun in my games doesn't just come from combat. Most of the games I'm in are half-roleplaying, half-combat. Like I said, this character is not going to be some awesome combat-oriented character, he's just going to be awesome everywhere else.

To Draz:

Yea, one of my biggest problems was deciding whether or not to get all the Save Auras or more Skill Auras. But that's what leveling is for. Either way I think I'll be appreciated.

Xefas
2007-11-07, 02:03 PM
If you'd like to have something to do in battle, I feel I need to promote what is possibly my single favorite homebrewed class ever: The Sublime Marshal (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=752414).

Much like a Warblade is a Fighter who has stuff to do, so is a Sublime Marshal like a Marshal who has stuff to do.

Its maneuvers aren't as powerful as the three official initiators, but you can throw down a Leading the Attack or some such when you're bored with being the Human Buff.

Temp
2007-11-07, 02:21 PM
If you'd like to have something to do in battle, I feel I need to promote what is possibly my single favorite homebrewed class ever: The Sublime Marshal.

Much like a Warblade is a Fighter who has stuff to do, so is a Sublime Marshal like a Marshal who has stuff to do.
I haven't looked at that homebrew yet, but it seems the White Raven-Focused Warblade/Crusader is the "Marshal who has stuff to do."

I'll check that link out, though.

[edit:]
After looking through the modifications, I highly approve. That's replacing the Marshal fix I've been using in my games.
I'm not sure about the maneuvers TS wrote out, but the rest looks pretty good.

Person_Man
2007-11-07, 02:29 PM
There's really no reason to go Marshal (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b) 10. Marshal 1 will give you Diplo Focus and your Cha bonus to whatever it is you want to optimize (usually Cha Skills or Trip/Bull Rush attacks). If you want an uber Skill Monkey, you're usually much better off as a Beguiler, Factotum, and/or Exemplar.

Deepblue706
2007-11-07, 03:28 PM
Marshals are good in war campaigns where you'll have plenty of minions and have access to Leadership. Adding +1 to attack, etc, isn't too great with a party, but can be quite nice with a small war band.

Also, dipping into it for 1 level and picking up Force of Will could mean your party never really has to worry about Will saves, if your charisma is good enough. You could also grab Inspire Dexterity instead, and give everyone great initiative. But I reckon, as previously stated; the longer you take it, the less likely you'll be satisfied with your character.

jjpickar
2007-11-07, 03:59 PM
It has good synergies with the paladin and, to a lesser extent, bard. Personally, I think you will be fine with the party you have. But you may want to consider multi classing into something else, getting a prestige class or both. The latter of these I think is the best course.