[3.5] Forcing opponents to make skill checks in combat

[Zaq]

I'm trying to brainstorm situations in which it makes more sense to use the reversed version of universal aptitude (i.e., target takes a -5 penalty on all skill checks for five rounds) than the normal version (i.e., target gets a +5 bonus to all skill checks for the same duration). Note, of course, that it is impossible to use these simultaneously; they are mutually exclusive, so that's why we have to choose to use one version over another.

I'm limiting myself to in-combat situations rather than exploration/social situations simply because any situation I can think of in an exploration/social setting wherein it would be valuable to penalize a target's skill checks is one in which it would be, well, let's say awkward to make a big noisy unsubtle utterance at them immediately before. "Here, let me just shout some weird and clearly magical words at you before my bard friend tells you our tale, that's clearly aboveboard." Yeah, no. Don't like that. (And you're gonna break stealth if you use it intending to penalize someone's Spot/Listen rolls, so it's a moot point there.)

Anyway! My point is that I'm limiting myself to in-combat scenarios, since at that point it's expected that you'll be using hostile and obvious magical effects on each other. The problem is that I'm having a hard time thinking of times when you force a target to make a skill check and that skill check isn't an opposed skill check, since nine times out of ten in an opposed skill check it makes more sense to me to buff the ally's roll than to debuff the enemy's roll (after all, the ally might move on to a different target before universal aptitude runs out).

So help me out! When are some times when you'd force an opponent to roll a skill check in combat and you're better off penalizing the enemy rather than boosting the ally? Are there abilities where multiple allies can each force the target to make a skill check (even if those allies don't necessarily have the same feat/ability/etc. on their own)?

Here's what I've got so far, and everything on this list is a stretch:

You happen to have multiple allies who like feinting, so penalizing Sense Motive on the target can help two or more allies to feint.
The target is on grease or a similar surface that forces Balance checks to do anything.
You've managed to perceive the target, but you know that the target is trying to sneak away and hide. Penalizing the target's Hide/MS will help everyone on your team who's trying to make Spot/Listen checks. (Though this relies on the truenamer--who does not have Spot or Listen in-class and who has no in-class use for Wisdom--already perceiving the target in the first place, since you can't use Truespeak on something you can't see or can't otherwise perceive with some sense that "provides as much information as sight," so good freaking luck there.)
I guess if the enemy is climbing and they don't have a Climb speed then they'd need to make Climb checks to move or to avoid falling if they're attacked? Maybe? But that's kind of the enemy's own fault for climbing in combat without a climb speed in the first place. You can't really engineer that.
Maybe if the enemy is, like, making Ride checks or something? Are there any Ride checks with a DC high enough that there's a realistic chance of a trained rider failing even with a -5?
I guess there's Concentration checks, though if you're trying to disrupt spellcasting, you might have a better time just doing continuous damage with a reversed word of nurturing-line utterance instead...

Trying to think of anything else at all. Please help me out, Playground!

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I think you're on to something with Ride, since a foe with the Mounted Combat feat can negate a hit on the mount with a ride check (DC=attack roll, which can be very high) 1/round.

Regarding concentration, I agree that casters can probably take the -5 hit. But initiators who use diamond mind maneuvers as a way to avoid pumping saves basically get a -5 to those saves.

[Kelb_Panthera]

To the social/exploration issue; remember that "the universe hears just fine." Envelope your truenamer in silence before uttering at the target. Something you can flip on and off that only affects the truenamer would be ideal.

Giving tumblers a fat penalty can make it easier to keep them from moving around. Same goes for making balance and climb checks more dubious in the appropriate contexts.

[Zaq]

To the social/exploration issue; remember that "the universe hears just fine." Envelope your truenamer in silence before uttering at the target. Something you can flip on and off that only affects the truenamer would be ideal.

Giving tumblers a fat penalty can make it easier to keep them from moving around. Same goes for making balance and climb checks more dubious in the appropriate contexts.

Yup, that’s a reason why I list whisper gnomes as a viable, if niche, race for a specific and unusual build of truenamer. Self-only silence as a racial SLA, which you can spend feats to get more of. (Admittedly I forget if that’s in the CURRENT version of the guide or if it’s in my notes for a future update, but the point is, we’re on the same page as far as that goes.)

Another in-combat asymmetrical skill check that might come up is Escape Artist. Probably relies on having a party member who grapples or who otherwise inflicts grappled-like conditions, but hey, it might come up. (Not sure how many printed monsters have Escape Artist worth a damn / better than their grapple mods, but I’m trying over here.)

[Unavenger]

Because RUA reduces all the enemy's skills, if one person wants to feint and another wants to snipe, it's worth targeting the enemy and not your allies.

There's also a few spells and such which can be opposed by strength or EA, although most monsters' strength bonuses are better than their EA checks anyway.

Annoying martial initiators by cutting down the skill checks that a few maneuvers rely on is funny even if it's rarely the best use of your action.

If you shove an enemy off a building with Reversed Eldritch Attraction or otherwise, but you only just manage to get them off the edge, they can make a check to catch themselves, I guess?

As for concentration, you may be better off dealing damage over time than reducing enemy concentration checks, but why not both? You're a truenamer: using two different abilities in the same round is one of the things you're actually good at.

[PoeticallyPsyco]

Even creatures with a climb speed have to roll their skill; they just get a +8 bonus and other assorted benefits. If they're on a tricky enough surface, a -5 could be a real hindrance.

If you've got a second Truenamer in the party (because if you're going to go mad, you might as well go completely mad), I don't think they can both buff the same person (because that would fall under the two bonuses from the same source rule if nothing else), so you might as well have one buff the ally and the other debuff the enemy.

If the enemy's using Iaijutsu Focus.

Most of these are relatively minor, but targeting an enemy over an ally is also a relatively minor decrease in efficiency; if the enemy would be mildly inconvenienced due to more than one of these you're probably coming out ahead or at least net even. If it's one of the big ones (like multiple party members making opposed skill checks against the boss) then it's most likely better to target the enemy.

Speaking of multiple opposed skill checks, how many are there that apply in combat? Intimidate duels at the start of combat (ToB), Iaijutsu Focus duels at the start of combat (OA), perception v. stealth (and vice versa), feinting, sleight-of-hand stealing things, grapple v. Escape Artist (kinda)... any others? Even with just those, it's definitely not impossible to have more than one party member making use of one as part of their combat strategy.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Silly Zaq. Skills aren't for use in fighting. I mean, look at the name! That's why the fighter has such sucky skills, because he doesn't need them!

:smallannoyed:

[Psyren]

Anyway! My point is that I'm limiting myself to in-combat scenarios, since at that point it's expected that you'll be using hostile and obvious magical effects on each other. The problem is that I'm having a hard time thinking of times when you force a target to make a skill check and that skill check isn't an opposed skill check, since nine times out of ten in an opposed skill check it makes more sense to me to buff the ally's roll than to debuff the enemy's roll (after all, the ally might move on to a different target before universal aptitude runs out).

There are combat checks that, rather than skill-vs-skill, are skill-vs-something-else. Escape Artist vs grapple is one easy example. Debuffing someone's Tumble so that they provoke while retreating is a viable strategy as well. And you already highlighted the Concentration (3.5) vs. damage taken example.



I guess there's Concentration checks, though if you're trying to disrupt spellcasting, you might have a better time just doing continuous damage with a reversed word of nurturing-line utterance instead...

But if you're already using word of nurturing at the time (Law of Sequence, yay!) then you can't do that, right?
Not to mention, Truenamers get limited utterances anyway and Universal Aptitude is a must-pick for almost anyone who takes the class (A handbook I read once rated it highly anyway), so you might as well get as much use out of it as you can :smallsmile:

I don't think debuffing skill checks is the most impactful thing a Truenamer could do with their actions either, but since you almost certainly have the utterance anyway then it might be worth using offensively on occasion.