Unearthed Arcana 1/26/21 - Gothic Lineages

[jaappleton]

https://media.wizards.com/2021/dnd/downloads/UA2021_GothicLineages.pdf

[MaxWilson]

https://media.wizards.com/2021/dnd/downloads/UA2021_GothicLineages.pdf

Thank you, jaapleton, for your diligence in bringing new material to the community's attention. Without you I probably wouldn't even realize there was a UA for days or weeks.

[Warder]

So confirmation that all future books will work with Tasha's system for ability scores. Blurgh.

[animewatcha]

How much 'Hex' can you stick in one character?

[Amechra]

I like how the Dhampyr just straight-up gives you a Con-based attack. It's not the strongest attack, but I'd kinda love to make a Dhampyr Shadow Monk that prioritizes Constitution. I hope that they don't change it to be based off of Strength (or Dexterity) in the future.

Hexblood is going to be an optimization favorite, since they get Hex as a free spell known and can base it off of any mental stat they want. I'm not a big fan, honestly.

I kinda like the Reborn? It still feels a bit lackluster, but that's probably just because it has a big ol' passive ability.

EDIT: OK, there's an Adventure Time reference in the Dhampyr's list of hungers. I'm... not sure how I feel about that.

[jaappleton]

How much 'Hex' can you stick in one character?

Reborn Phantom Rogue is also up there with Hexborn Hexblade with the Hex spell, Pact of the Chain using a dog familiar named Hecks.

[Amnestic]

Using conmod for attack/damage on the dhampir's bite is unusual. Has that ever happened before? I know some races got con-spells (genasi) but it's the first time I can recall seeing it for a weapon attack, natural or otherwise.

Shame it wouldn't work with sneak attack. Powerbiting people as a rogue is a funny image to me.

[Evaar]

Dhampir gets a Constitution based simple weapon attack. I'd try to work out a SAD Barbarian focused on Constitution, but the damage is only 1d4 so you'll just be tickling things with it. You could still make yourself useful by grappling stuff, but then you end up needing strength anyway.

Odd that the Hexblood, which actually has the Fey type, doesn't get the Sleep immunity from Fey Ancestry. Instead they get Fey Resilience, which only provides the Charm advantage; maybe the Sleep part is supposed to be specific to elves, what with Trance. I feel like granting a 1/longrest Hex via lineage is abusable, but it's probably fine. Potentially a tad bit riskier with the clause allowing it to be used with other spell slots. Still not better than a 1 level dip for a Hexvoker, since you want the Hexblade's Curse feature, or for any of the classes trying to become Cha-SAD.

Reborn seems fine, a little dull. Completely outclassed by Yuan-Ti, but what isn't? Unclear to me whether their bonus from past life has to be used before the die is rolled or after.

[tmjr6]

I like how Wizards is going forward with adding new options for the lineages. I like how Reborn is an easy way to allow players to play a Revenant. Not 100% sure how I feel about Reborn, but this is playtest material after all. These also feel like great ways to allow players to come back in a form of divine intervention or Faustian deal.

[kaervaak]

The double creature types are an interesting choice. All of these are humanoid and something else which I haven't seen before. This seems to be a reasonably large drawback as it makes them vulnerable to more spells and effects.

[PhantomSoul]

So confirmation that all future books will work with Tasha's system for ability scores. Blurgh.

Worse than just "work with Tasha's" -- looks like they might effectively mandate it instead of putting the time, effort or thought into which ability scores fit and effectively [I]force you to use optional rules for their future races, therefore pretty much forcing you to use it for the existing races unless you play "bad guy" by specifying the scores.

[nickl_2000]

How much 'Hex' can you stick in one character?

Yo' Dawg, I heard you like Hex!

I'm not super impressed, although the Dhampir Fanged bite being based Constitution for to hit and damage is interesting and could create some unique characters.

[Warder]

Worse than just "work with Tasha's" -- looks like they might effectively mandate it instead of putting the time, effort or thought into which ability scores fit and effectively [I]force you to use optional rules for their future races, therefore pretty much forcing you to use it for the existing races unless you play "bad guy" by specifying the scores.

Yeah, that's what I meant. Optional was optional for all of one book, from now on it's mandatory.

[J-H]

Hmm.
Looks like these all tie in to Ravenloft or similar settings.

I disagree strongly with the Tasha's changes and don't use them, BUT for these three racial options, it makes sense... these are unique changes to the new creature's physical nature and its manner of metamorphosis. A dwarf might lose its sturdy Constitution for unnatural quickness as a hungering undead, a half-orc's muscles might wither even as it gains a dominating presence, etc. etc.

I would probably allow a maximum of one of any of these in a party at a time. Dhampir obviously does the most for vampire wish-fulfillment, as does Reborn. Hexblood is pretty meh, but on theme.

I don't see anything particularly unbalanced, given that taking these races with spell-like options does cost the extra skills or proficiencies a player would get from other racial options.

[nickl_2000]

And you now have the ability to easily cast Hex on an EK Fighter without a feat or multiclassing. They have effectively boosted all EKs damage by a substantial amount.

[animewatcha]

Crazy question. Going with 'choosing new lineage instead of old race' kinda. Humanoid(elf) + one of new options. Can they take Elven Accuracy?

[MaxWilson]

So confirmation that all future books will work with Tasha's system for ability scores. Blurgh.

Also an(other) official repudiation of the DMG-advised system for systematically applying racial modifiers to MM NPC templates. New claim: racial modifiers are only for PCs, because they're heroic.

The new UA feels like a White Wolf product. Too many edgy powers and abilities.

[Amechra]

The more I look at Vampiric Bite, the better it looks. To summarize:


It's a simple natural weapon that deals 1d4 piercing damage.
Unlike most weapons, it's Con-based.
You have Advantage on attack rolls with it while you are below half health.
A few times per long rest, you can use it to regain hit-points or gain a bonus to your next attack roll or ability check equal to the damage dealt.


Honestly, I fully expect that the attack roll/ability check bonus rider is going to be straight-up removed if we see a final version, because that's very broken. Without any real optimization, you're looking at a bonus from +3 to +6 - however, since the bonus is based off of the damage and not what you rolled with that d4, you can pump it up with stuff like smites or turning it into a Monk weapon.

I mean, it's hilarious that this effectively turns a Dhampyr Paladin into an absurd skill monkey, since even a first-level spell is likely to give you a ~+13 bonus on average (if there's a horse or something you can chomp on). But that's not good for the health of the game.

EDIT: My biggest complaint, though, is that they're using the "you get a number of uses equal to your proficiency modifier!" thing. I hate that.

[PhantomSoul]

Vampiric Bite. Your fanged bite is a natural weapon, which counts as a simple melee weapon with which you are proficient. You add your Constitution modifier to the attack and damage rolls when you attack with your bite. Your bite deals 1d4 piercing damage on a hit. While you are missing half or more of your hit points, you have advantage on attack rolls you make with this bite. When you use your bite and hit a creature that isn’t a Construct or an Undead, you can empower yourself in one of the following ways of your choice:•regain hit points equal to the damage dealt by the bite•gain a bonus to the next ability check or attack roll you make; the bonus equals the damage dealt by the bite You can empower yourself with your bite a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.

Well, if Vampiric touch didn't sound bad enough eh! This gives the full damage to HP/checks/rolls, counts as a melee weapon attack with a simple melee weapon, and you can boost the 1d4+CON to get more of a bonus (e.g. smite, hex) if the DM deems hex doesn't count as "not by the bite". Oh, and you can get easy advantage in case that was a problem. (And interestingly you're attacking using constitution.)

[Damon_Tor]

The reborn can be a construct, which means they can be a Battlemaster and be healed by their defender. Also interesting that the 4 hour long rest is now explicit.



EDIT: OK, there's an Adventure Time reference in the Dhampyr's list of hungers. I'm... not sure how I feel about that.

I find it deeply annoying, especially since without context it's not at all clear what it even means.

[nickl_2000]

EDIT: My biggest complaint, though, is that they're using the "you get a number of uses equal to your proficiency modifier!" thing. I hate that.

I can see the hatred, although I think it makes sense on a racial feature. At least it isn't a class feature where it gets more powerful even when you aren't taking levels in the class.

[animewatcha]

Did they ever come up with a ruling on natural weapon vs monk martials arts things?

[Warder]

I find it deeply annoying, especially since without context it's not at all clear what it even means.

It's incredibly tone deaf. I mean I don't mind a reference or a joke here and there, but this is presumably for something Ravenloftesque where that's incredibly out of place.

[Damon_Tor]

The implications for being able to change your racial ability bonuses mid game are troubling. What happens if you start the game with +2 to str for a total of 13, take a level of paladin, then a level of warlock, then trade out your strength bonus. Do you still have the level of paladin that you no longer qualify for? What does this mean for taking more levels of paladin? Or more levels of warlock? By RAW can you now take levels in zero classes?

And since race is officially only skin deep anyway, why even bother with letting people change their ability scores when they change raves? Make it like languages where you keep whatever bonuses you started with.

[rlc]

So, if I’m a hexblood, I can leave a piece of my hair on somebody’s shirt and tell them that I hate them from 10 miles away? That’s awesome.



So confirmation that all future books will work with Tasha's system for ability scores. Blurgh.

I mean, how did you not see that coming?

[PhantomSoul]

I mean, how did you not see that coming?

Wishful thinking -- and no, that's not blue text.

[Warder]

I mean, how did you not see that coming?

I did, but I honestly didn't think they'd make that change until next edition. I (naively?) assumed that what they stated multiple times was an optional rule would remain optional. In hindsight I guess that was just a way to try to appease those who didn't care for the change, for whatever reason. I feel pretty stupid now, I guess.

[jaappleton]

I like the approach they're taking in the sense of, "I want to play ____ but none of the races really work for it"

Want to be a construct but not a Warforged? Reborn. Remember the old Shardmind from previous editions? Reborn works for that, too.

Believe it or not, they actually did an old UA for Revenants waaaaayyy back, like 2016 I think? Gothic Heroes was the name of the article. It.... was decent in concept but not very practical to implement. It was a new subrace applicable to all races, essentially.

[Damon_Tor]

A PC in a party with an Oathbreaker might feel pressured to become a Dhampir or Reborn to benefit from his Aura of Hate.

[sayaijin]

Reborn Phantom Rogue is also up there with Hexborn Hexblade with the Hex spell, Pact of the Chain using a dog familiar named Hecks.

I love the flavor, but the mechanical overlap of advantage on death saving throws on both your race and your class is annoying. Kinda wish it was a static boost to death saving throws or maybe proficiency with death saving throws.

[Dragonsonthemap]

I, for one, am glad to see the Tasha's Lineage changes becoming standard.

Besides that, this is the second kinda gothic-themed UA released recently. I think it's a safe bet that Ravenloft is one of the three classic settings getting books.

[Evaar]

So the Dhampir bite can be a Monk weapon, because it's a simple weapon with which the character is proficient and it lacks the two-handed and heavy properties.

It's NOT an unarmed strike, so you can't use it with Flurry or the bonus action Martial Arts attack. But you can use your Attack action, continue to attack with Dexterity instead of Constitution (by my reading), replace the damage die with a higher one, gain advantage if you're below half health (just bring back Bloodied as a condition please), and gain the empowerment benefits from it proficiency times per long rest.

But it's not a magic weapon, and it won't become one from your monk features because it's not an unarmed strike.

Eh? Still not really worth it. Plus the wall walking from dhampir is redundant with monk wall walking (actually dhampir's is outright superior).

[jaappleton]

I, for one, am glad to see the Tasha's Lineage changes becoming standard.

Besides that, this is the second kinda gothic-themed UA released recently. I think it's a safe bet that Ravenloft is one of the three classic settings getting books.

Ravenloft getting more content was confirmed by Chris Perkins awhile back.

[JackPhoenix]

Welp, I guess I now agree that 5e won't last long if this kind of crap gets set up as the system's default assumption. And I hold little hope for the future 6e.

[Waterdeep Merch]

I've spent months gearing up for an extended CoS game, but only the dhampir here is likely to see use. It looks a bit more interesting than the versions I've been working with the player interested in playing one. I don't hate the concept of the Reborn, but the 'powered by brooding' thing it's got going on is a bit of an eyeroll. Maybe I can fix this up for some resurrection body horror later.

Hexblood is too broad of a concept and too meh on abilities, I think. It's not that it can't be strong, it's that the abilities are kinda dull and flavorless. Needs more focus. Token's neat? Useful sometimes, sure. But not to most groups or sessions, really, and it's going to lose it's creepy factor after the first time you use it. Expect any player to turn it into a droning gag by the second session.


It's incredibly tone deaf. I mean I don't mind a reference or a joke here and there, but this is presumably for something Ravenloftesque where that's incredibly out of place.

I was thinking something similar a few months ago regarding some materials I picked up for use in the setting. There's a contingent of the fandom that doesn't actually like gothic horror but still enjoys the trappings, it seems, and they play it pretty hokey. To each their own, but I come down on the side of liking the horror aspect for my horror settings. Kitschy Halloween-land just doesn't do it for me.

[Kane0]

Yeah not bad, appreciate that something came out. Wasnt expecting anything monumental so soon after Tasha’s

[KorvinStarmast]

Dhampir Traits
Type: Humanoid and Undead
Let's not and say we did. :smallyuk: This ain't gonna be an option at my table.


Hexblood Traits
Type: Fey and Humanoid
I can almost live with this, but what next -
Warforged are Construct and Humanoid? (And Reborn? What, if someone casts raise dead I have to change origin type? :smalltongue: )
Dragonborn are Dragon and Humanoid?
If you take this far enough, elf and half elf also get twin creature types - fey and humanoid - but humans, dwarfs, halflings, and gnomes are just plain humanoids. So what benefit, what option do they get?
Nothing?
This UA does not even deserve the descriptor 'half baked' - WoTC put the oven on 250(F), and poured in some of Tasha's Bisquick(TM). It's barely warmed over. :smallyuk:

Some of the features of Hexblood interest me, though. But let's see: high elves get a free cantrip, Hexblood gets Two Free Spells.
Balance? No. But I would like to see the most recent balance calculator applied to this and see where the author places the Hexblood option.

Just want to say: assigning multiple creature types breaks with the fundamental structure of the PHB and the MM.
Don't think this is a good idea.

Reborn Traits
Type: Humanoid, as well as Construct or Undead
(choose when you gain this lineage)
How about leave the undead as undead, which they already have, and confine Reborn to Frankenstein, etc.

I can hear Mearls now: "Hey, let's throw some noodles at the wall and see if any stick!"

• You have advantage on saving throws against disease and being poisoned, and you have resistance to poison damage.
• You have advantage on death saving throws.
• You don’t need to eat, drink, or breathe.
• You don’t need to sleep, and magic can’t put you to sleep. You can finish a long rest in 4 hours if you spend those hours in an inactive, motionless state, during which you retain consciousness.
They forgot a few:

• You are hunted, endlessly, by a horde of farmers bearing pitchforks and torches.
• You marry Madeline Khan

[PhoenixPhyre]

Let's not and say we did. :smallyuk: This ain't gonna be an option at my table.


I can almost live with this, but what next -
Warforged are Construct and Humanoid? (And Reborn? What, if someone casts raise dead I have to change origin type? :smalltongue: )
Dragonborn are Dragon and Humanoid?
If you take this far enough, elf and half elf also get twin creature types - fey and humanoid - but humans, dwarfs, halflings, and gnomes are just plain humanoids. So what benefit, what option do they get?
Nothing?
This UA does not even deserve the descriptor 'half baked' - WoTC put the oven on 250(F), and poured in some of Tasha's Bisquick(TM). It's barely warmed over. :smallyuk:

Some of the features of Hexblood interest me, though. But let's see: high elves get a free cantrip, Hexblood gets Two Free Spells.
Balance? No. But I would like to see the most recent balance calculator applied to this and see where the author places the Hexblood option.

Just want to say: assigning multiple creature types breaks with the fundamental structure of the PHB and the MM.
Don't think this is a good idea.

Along with all the rest of the issues people have identified, I have to agree with this. And we should provide that feedback to WotC in no uncertain terms. Make this one like the Prestige Class one--DoA.

And no, ain't no way this is getting used at my table. Or anything else that requires the Custom Lineage stuff (or any of the rest of that chapter of Tasha's).

[da newt]

I just like the idea of free spider climb all the time. I enjoy playing PCs who refuse to walk on the ground/floor waaaay too much - I'm not sure why, but it tickles my fancy something fierce.

[jaappleton]

Let's not and say we did. :smallyuk: This ain't gonna be an option at my table.


I can almost live with this, but what next -
Warforged are Construct and Humanoid? (And Reborn? What, if someone casts raise dead I have to change origin type? :smalltongue: )
Dragonborn are Dragon and Humanoid?
If you take this far enough, elf and half elf also get twin creature types - fey and humanoid - but humans, dwarfs, halflings, and gnomes are just plain humanoids. So what benefit, what option do they get?
Nothing?
This UA does not even deserve the descriptor 'half baked' - WoTC put the oven on 250(F), and poured in some of Tasha's Bisquick(TM). It's barely warmed over. :smallyuk:

Some of the features of Hexblood interest me, though. But let's see: high elves get a free cantrip, Hexblood gets Two Free Spells.
Balance? No. But I would like to see the most recent balance calculator applied to this and see where the author places the Hexblood option.

Having multiple creature types as a PC can be terrible, actually.

Enemy casts Protection from Evil & Good.
The party is a Centaur, Satyr, and Hexborn.

Well now you're screwed.

And regarding balance... Think of this like a fighting game. When you get to as many characters as D&D offers, at some point you need to relate balance as a margin and not a singular point. If it falls within the margins, its OK. Because trying to balance it all to within a single point, it just can't happen.

They need to release more content, because buying that content is what makes the company money. A certain percentage of that has to be player options. And when the potential number of races approaches this point... Its gotta be that margin, to fall within a certain parameter.

[Unoriginal]

Does the Vampire Bite works with the Beast Barbarian's Bite attack?


Also an(other) official repudiation of the DMG-advised system for systematically applying racial modifiers to MM NPC templates. New claim: racial modifiers are only for PCs, because they're heroic.

The DMG templates are generally weaker/with less features than the PC races, though.

[Amnestic]

Isn't being humanoid and undead just...universally bad? I dunno how up to date this list is https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/5rgw5f/spells_by_affected_creature_types/

But assuming it covers most cases, you've got all the downsides of the undead type (hallow, sunburst, sunbeam, etc.) but because you're also humanoid none of the upsides (eg. dodging hold monster/person)

[KorvinStarmast]

They need to release more content, because buying that content is what makes the company money. A certain percentage of that has to be player options. And when the potential number of races approaches this point... Its gotta be that margin, to fall within a certain parameter. My friend, I am painfully aware of this and have been since the early 80's.
It is Splatola - which ran amok during AD&D 2e, though there was plenty of zero value added bloat in AD&D 1e. (Thief Acrobat, anyone?)

Then, with WoTC and 3rd party sources splatola was raised to a new level.

The concepts aren't what pains me: it's the sloppy execution. (Beyond the twin creature type bad idea ...)

If they are going to add a pile of benefits in features, then balance it with what something that also makes the choice less attractive.

What this UA represents is yet another case of

"Hal, here's a five pound bag. Now go and get me 8 pounds of fertilizer to fill it up with"

The expansion of concept need not defecate on balance. I will offer the EE Genasi for a decent application of that principle. Neat idea, not OP compared to the base model.

I can promise you that as soon as they ask for feedback on this one I'll show up and feed back.

[Dienekes]

Well there are a lot fewer options about attacking Rome and evading the Huns than I thought there would be based on the title.

But looking through them, Vampires, Witches, and Zombies but no Werewolf? Disappointing. Anyway, while I'm halfheartedly opposed to Tasha's method of ability score method becoming standard, at least these seem built from the ground up with that in mind. So that's an improvement.

Kinda feels like these in question would've been better built as some sort of layer added on top of a different race. This is probably easier for them to do with 5es simply everything standard though.

[P. G. Macer]

Count me in the crowd with mixed feelings about this UA. Normally I like myself some gothic, and it’s nice to have a Dhampir option that isn’t a slightly re-skinned Vampire from the Plane Shift articles, but I am extremely frustrated that Wizards of the Coast (for lack of a better word) “lied” about the Tasha’s origin changes being optional, specifically the ability score swaps, as I’m not miffed at all about them finally distinguishing biology and culture in race design.

I’m also in agreement with whoever said that the Hexblood’s innate spell casting is straight-up better than just about any other races, especially since hex is quite the powerful spell, and you get to choose which mental ability score is the spell casting ability for the spells.

The definitional mechanics of the Dhampir’s bite are also wonky, as have been mentioned, so they produce weird mechanical interactions.

Finally, as an interesting bit of trivia more than anything else, a Small Dhampir is the only Small race with a 35 ft. base (i.e. not accounting for class features or feats) movement speed.

[Unoriginal]

I say that all of this UA needs a ton more work to be in working condition, but the ideas aren't bad.

[micahaphone]

Excellent, now I can use this UA and the Shifter race from eberron to make my sonic OC. His name is Noctis, he's the edgier twin of shadow

[KorvinStarmast]

I say that all of this UA needs a ton more work to be in working condition, but the ideas aren't bad.
Knowledge from a Past Life.

You temporarily remember sporadic glimpses of the past, perhaps faded memories from ages ago or a previous life. When you make an ability check that uses a skill, you can roll a d6 and add the number rolled to the check. You can use this feature a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest. This isn't a horrible feature. Neat, and limited in application.

This is an insane pile of bloat.

You have advantage on saving throws against disease and being poisoned, and you have resistance to poison damage.
• You have advantage on death saving throws.
• You don’t need to eat, drink, or breathe.
• You don’t need to sleep, and magic can’t put you to sleep. You can finish a long rest in 4 hours if you spend those hours in an inactive, motionless state, during which you retain consciousness. And my rant on Trance will go unspoken - Trance is one of my favorite feature of this edition to hate. The other is the exhaustion mechanic, specifically the various mitigations.

[Amnestic]

This is an insane pile of bloat.


It's just a slight tweak on the warforged stuff though, like it's almost identical. 4 hours instead of 6 (oh no?), drop the disease immunity and give advantage on death saves instead.

Compare (Reborn)


Deathless Nature. You have escaped death, a fact represented by the following benefits:
•You have advantage on saving throws against disease and being poisoned, and you have resistance to poison damage.
•You have advantage on death saving throws.
•You don’t need to eat, drink, or breathe.
•You don’t need to sleep, and magic can’t put you to sleep. You can finish a long rest in 4 hours if you spend those hours in an inactive, motionless state, during which you retain consciousness.

Contrast (Warforged)


Constructed Resilience. You were created to have remarkable fortitude, represented by the following benefits:
You have advantage on saving throws against being poisoned, and you have resistance to poison damage.
You don’t need to eat, drink, or breathe.
You are immune to disease.
You don't need to sleep, and magic can't put you to sleep.

Sentry's Rest. When you take a long rest, you must spend at least six hours in an inactive, motionless state, rather than sleeping. In this state, you appear inert, but it doesn’t render you unconscious, and you can see and hear as normal.




How is that "an insane pile of bloat"?

[king_steve]

The Vampiric Bite for the Dhampir seems interesting. You can give yourself advantage on your next ability check or attack roll. I like the flavor of the the Dhampir using their bite to empower themselves.

I also think the Hexblood is interesting, but the fact they can cast their spells with spell slots is a bit much, IMO. I guess the Dragonmarks give you that, sorta, by adding spells to your spell list. But I personally think thats a bit much. Having it be once per long rest would put those spells in line with most other innate spellcasting.

I also like that the Reborn can be Undead or a Construct. It's fun to think of a Frankenstein's monster type PC.

Overall, I think these a good, but could use a few tweaks.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's just a slight tweak on the warforged stuff though Which, like most of the Eberron book, is bloat. (At least as far as I am concerned). If the whole campaign is Eberron, I think it all fits. Problem is, it leaks out ... :smallyuk:

If you build the adventure day - which is a structural part of D&D 5e, for better and for worse - around rest cycles, and get exhaustion for not eating or sleeping, and you die if you can't breath (see suffocation rules) then these "features" are out of whack.

You have advantage on saving throws against being poisoned, and you have resistance to poison damage.
That's like the dwarf. Fine. And one of the halflings, I think.
You don’t need to eat, drink, or breathe. Breathe. See Suffocation rules. Eat: Exhaustion rules. Drink: Exhaustion rules.
You are immune to disease. Paladin 3rd level class feature. (and IIRC a higher level monk one?)
You don't need to sleep, and magic can't put you to sleep.
Heck, even elves need to trance, or sleep.

[thoroughlyS]

I am actually a fan of these new options, although not without reservations. I dislike the double types, but WotC has already opened that door, so it's not like we can shut it. I am in the boat with people who dislike that these lineages give pick and choose ASIs. Dhampir seems the most well designed to me, although I could take or leave the bite as a simple weapon over an unarmed strike. As mentioned above, hexblood getting hex once per long rest, AND on your spell list is a little much. The token idea is... fun? but feels weird as a racial trait. I think it should be part of a racial feat if anything, or maybe an alternative background feature (although it's kind of strong for that). Reborn is a much better implementation of the idea than the reborn rogue, although I find its traits a little boring. "Ooh~, I can give myself bardic inspiration twice a day~..."

As soon as we can give feedback, I'm going to recommend hammering down some static racial ASIs, and another crack at the reborn.




Which, like most of the Eberron book, is bloat. (At least as far as I am concerned).
If the official versions of the Eberron races were exactly as they were in their UA, I would agree with you, but I think WotC did a good job paring down the races to fit alongside the other options. My one reservation is that warforged do have a staggering number of ribbons, but that makes sense when you are trying to make a playable living machine. Anything less would feel like a lack of follow-through on the idea.


If you build the adventure day - which is a structural part of D&D 5e, for better and for worse - around rest cycles, and get exhaustion for not eating or sleeping, and you die if you can't breath (see suffocation rules) then these "features" are out of whack.

You have advantage on saving throws against being poisoned, and you have resistance to poison damage.
That's like the dwarf. Fine.

You don’t need to eat, drink, or breathe. Breathe. See Suffocation rules.
You are immune to disease. Paladin 3rd level class feature. (and IIRC a higher level monk one?)
You don't need to sleep, and magic can't put you to sleep.
Heck, even elves need to trance, or sleep.
I agree that these traits would obviate a game that focused on a harsh survivalist playstyle—like escaping a desert—but in the other 90% of games, they wouldn't come up. How often have you actually faced an obstacle involving suffocation? Maybe twice a campaign, if that? And how often does your group come into contact with a disease? And does your party not have a character than can instantly cure that disease during your next day of downtime? Like, warforged would make Tomb of Annihilation a cakewalk, but not really any of the other published adventures.

[Amechra]

So the Dhampir bite can be a Monk weapon, because it's a simple weapon with which the character is proficient and it lacks the two-handed and heavy properties.

It's NOT an unarmed strike, so you can't use it with Flurry or the bonus action Martial Arts attack. But you can use your Attack action, continue to attack with Dexterity instead of Constitution (by my reading), replace the damage die with a higher one, gain advantage if you're below half health (just bring back Bloodied as a condition please), and gain the empowerment benefits from it proficiency times per long rest.

But it's not a magic weapon, and it won't become one from your monk features because it's not an unarmed strike.

Eh? Still not really worth it. Plus the wall walking from dhampir is redundant with monk wall walking (actually dhampir's is outright superior).

Go Kensei and make the bite a kensei weapon. Then not only does it count as a magic weapon after 6th level, you also have ways to pump up the damage.

Go ahead, make your bite a +3 weapon for a fight, and reap the benefits of your potential 2d8+8 bite (because why not get a +12 bonus to your next ability check?)

[J-H]

The reborn was a flesh golem designed as a brute guard: Str+2
The reborn was a lab assistant built from a gnome: Dex+2
The reborn was a zombie: Con+2
The reborn was a wizard's familiar/failed clone: Int+2

Having a hard time coming up with justifications for Wis+2 or Cha+2, but I'm sure there's something.

[king_steve]

Which, like most of the Eberron book, is bloat. (At least as far as I am concerned). If the whole campaign is Eberron, I think it all fits. Problem is, it leaks out ... :smallyuk:

If you build the adventure day around rest cycles, and get exhaustion for not eating or sleeping, and you die if you can't breath (see suffocation rules) then these "features" are out of whack.

Theros also has the supernatural gift Anvilwrought, which has most of the same effects as Warforged and the Reborn.

Warlocks have some subclasses (Undying Nature from the Undying Patron (SAC) and Grave Touched from the Undead Patron (UA)) and invocations (Aspect of the Moon) that let you ignore sleeping.

It's still up to the DM if a given race is an available option in the campaign, not to mention Goodberry is still a spell.

[Ortho]

Hm, can't say I'm a fan of this particular UA. I like the vampire/hag/zombie player idea, but this particular UA is just a mess.

Mechanically, races with multiple creature types are just unnecessary clutter, Hex Magic is overpowered, and I disliked Constructed Resilience on the Warforged and I dislike Deathless Nature here (except advantage on death saving throws. That can stay.)

I will say, though, it's nice that WotC is finally separating cultural and racial abilities.

[JackPhoenix]

You don’t need to eat, drink, or breathe. Breathe. See Suffocation rules. Eat: Exhaustion rules. Drink: Exhaustion rules.

The breathing is the only one that's more than a ribbon. Good, because warforged don't have much going for them otherwise. Unless you're running very specific campaign, eating and drinking isn't a problem. There are class features, spells, background feature and even a skill that allows you to get food and water easily.


You are immune to disease. Paladin 3rd level class feature. (and IIRC a higher level monk one?)

Similar non-issue as the food and water. Diseases are rarely a problem.


You don't need to sleep, and magic can't put you to sleep.
Heck, even elves need to trance, or sleep.

And warforged need to spend time in the inactive state. More time than elves, in fact.

[Warder]

Similar non-issue as the food and water. Diseases are rarely a problem.


While I agree that I don't think the Reborn thing is bloated, disease immunity can be pretty strong. Normal diseases can be bad enough (but are usually also very easily treated) but there's also stuff like being immune to the Harm spell baked into it that rarely comes up, but is fantastic when it does.

[MoiMagnus]

While I quite like the concept of undead PCs, I feel like it conflicts with the fact that undead are literally made of EVIL energy, while PCs are usually quite free in their alignment choices. Though arguably the same could be said against Tieflings (and as likely to be hunt by commoners with pitchforks and torches as them, assuming that's a thing in your settting).

Not that I will really care if they decide that "not all undeads use EVIL energy" or "EVIL energy doesn't make you evil" and continue to remove EVIL from the rulebook, as I've never really followed D&D cosmology anyway.

[Catullus64]

Trying to separate my thoughts on the actual content from the weird post-TCE game design shenanigans.

Actual Content: Looks pretty cool, and it's a good way to draw people into playing humans other than Variant. Always-on Spider Climb is something I'd kill for in a lot of campaigns. Hex Token is supremely cool, and opens up a lot of avenues for the DM to provide good story hooks. Deathless Nature is pretty bonkers, or at least it would be in any of my games.

Weird Game Design Stuff: My goodness, this thing is kind of a mess, isn't it? The shift to custom racial modifications, (not to mention languages) as the presumed standard going forward is anti-game design; it's actually a policy of designing less game.

Sometimes I wonder if Tasha's Cauldron of Everything will be marked by D&D historians as the point when all the early-5e Retroclones started.

[Damon_Tor]

(snipped)

The topic's been done to death, and is a thread killer. I'm going to suggest you delete this before the thread becomes derailed and has to be taken behind the woodshed.

[Amnestic]

Not that I will really care if they decide that "not all undeads use EVIL energy" or "EVIL energy doesn't make you evil" and continue to remove EVIL from the rulebook, as I've never really followed D&D cosmology anyway.

There's "deathless" in eberron, which are basically just undead but tied to the positive energy plane instead of the negative energy plane.

[Rfkannen]

I love it!

I like that they are getting rid of racial asi, I like the idea that a player can play whatever without worrying about stats.


I have always wanted to play a skeleton bard, part of me things that reborn would be perfect for that, part of me thinks that also being part humanoid would mean it wouldn't be a great fit. What do y'all think?

[Catullus64]

The topic's been done to death, and is a thread killer. I'm going to suggest you delete this before the thread becomes derailed and has to be taken behind the woodshed.

So edited, though I would thereupon suggest you delete your quotation of my ill-considered phrase.

[clash]

The races are interesting enough. Need some work but cool concepts. Personally, I love that they are designing races from the ground up without the ability modifiers. That was the best thing to come from tashas and long overdue. It gives me the freedom to not worry about optimization when picking my race and just play what I want. Granted there are some exploits based on the fact that old races were designed with the static ability scores in mind, but that's why it's so nice to see races being designed without the static ability bonuses. They can actually avoid exploits and be fairly balanced no matter the ability bonuses you choose.

[ATHATH]

It looks like Dhampirs could make for some killer Paladins that go for CON as their primary stat instead of STR or CHA. I'm a fan, although I think that the skill check boost part (but not necessarily the healing or attack roll boosting parts) of the bite empowerment thing should either be capped, made static, or removed, since, well, smiting is a thing.

This dual-typing thing feels like a cop-out, sort of like how the special "on your turn only" reach for hobgoblins was a cop-out for the proposal of making a player race with >5 ft. reach. If that Dhampir or Reborn can't be healed by Cure Wounds, then he should suck it up (perhaps literally by using an empowered bite on something)- that's one of the downsides you just have to deal with when playing an exotic creature type that's harmed by positive energy. IMO, it's a downside that's balanced out by the upsides of being immune to Hold Person, Phantasmal Force, etc.

The dual-typing thing also leads to some weird rules stuff. Like, if we're supposed to count as both types as once, why are we supposed to be affected by Cure Wounds, which specifically says that it DOESN'T affect the undead? By that logic, we could say that we won't have to worry about enemy spellcasters casting Protection from Evil and Good because that doesn't ward people against humanoids.

Hexbloods seem okay, although it'd have been nice to have a way for the person holding your taglock to have some way to respond to you or tell you when to initiate the 1 minute trance. I'm personally okay with them getting Hex and Disguise self 1/Day and getting them added to their effective spells known, since it's pretty redunant with a Warlock dip (and is recharged on a long rest, unlike the 1/short rest spell slot that you'd get from dipping Warlock). It'll mostly be nice for Eldritch Knights (and maybe some Wizards that want to combo Hex with Scorching Ray) that don't want to dip Warlock.

Reborn seem kind of... bland. I kind of miss the self-resurrection ability that Revenants had in that Ravenloft UA; that was badass and really made you FEEL like someone who just refuses to stay dead/accept their own death. The 4 hour long rest thing is interesting, especially if you're a Divine Soul (or a Necromancer) who can really benefit from spending two long rests back to back (... you CAN do that, right?) to cast some Extended Cleric spells at the highest levels available to him without eating into his "daytime" spell slots.

[Willie the Duck]

And you now have the ability to easily cast Hex on an EK Fighter without a feat or multiclassing. They have effectively boosted all EKs damage by a substantial amount.

Valor/Swords Bards and Rangers as well, will enjoy this. Heck, I can see one of those picking up this with Fey and Shadow Touched and just have all the spell options one could ever want. Honestly pretty much anything that has a limited number of spells known (even a warlock gets to spend their spells known on things-besides hex).

[Dork_Forge]

This is overwhelmingly disappointing and feels entirely out of place.

These feel less like races and more like templates that belong in a DM facing book to use in Gothic campaigns. By using the Tasha's approach for Lineages they're basically saying hey, this isn't really a variant rule at all! It's the new way of things so get used to a disjointed and ill considered balance!

No size categories, no stats it's open to the point of being a template anyway, just make it so. Otherwise the mechanics seem... iffy? Con for a physical attack? How does that make any sense? The class that screams is Barbarian... but you need to attack with Str to get most of the attack benefits they have built in.

Tbh I'm at the point where do we even need more races right now? 5e has mostly been tame on the splat for the amount of time it's been out, but of all things we have received a bloat of, it's races and spells.

[Damon_Tor]

The 4 hour long rest thing is interesting, especially if you're a Divine Soul (or a Necromancer) who can really benefit from spending two long rests back to back (... you CAN do that, right?)

IIRC, there's a 1 per 24 hour limit on long rests.

[KorvinStarmast]

Theros also has the supernatural gift Anvilwrought, which has most of the same effects as Warforged and the Reborn. Theros's races underwhelmed me, insofar as balance is concerned, but that's a separate topic. In the right campaign I suppose they fit.

The reborn was a flesh golem designed as a brute guard: Str+2
The reborn was a lab assistant built from a gnome: Dex+2
The reborn was a zombie: Con+2
The reborn was a wizard's familiar/failed clone: Int+2
Having a hard time coming up with justifications for Wis+2 or Cha+2, but I'm sure there's something. Reborn has disadvantage on persuasion and deception rolls, and disadvantage on insight rolls. That might balance out the bloat a bit. :smallyuk: Not going to suggest - to stats. (I think doing that in Volo's wasn't a great idea)
How about this:

The reborn was a goliath: Con+2
The reborn was a dwarf: Con+2
The reborn was a half orc: Con+2

And so on.

[Sigreid]

Most of what I'm thinking is that there'll be a book round about October.

[KorvinStarmast]

@thoroughlyS has very kindly done a review of 'balance' using their formula that we are discussing in that thread, and Hexblood comes out in the OP range of 35.
Details here (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24901487&postcount=33).

[Kane0]

I wonder how long it will be until there is an actual 'build your own race' UA.

I was going to ask 'why not drop the ability score increase entirely and just increase point buy/array values' but then I remembered that rolling for stats is the default.

[KorvinStarmast]

I wonder how long it will be until there is an actual 'build your own race' UA. It's in Tasha's, is it not? The +2 and a feat?

The breathing is the only one that's more than a ribbon. Depends on the campaign. (See ToA and OoTA, for starters)

Unless you're running very specific campaign, eating and drinking isn't a problem.
I once again point you to the exhaustion mechanics. No, it's not a ribbon. (Yes, the severity of this imbalance depends on the campaign, but there are mechanical linkages to not eating and drinking in the basic rules) Granted, I think the exhaustion mechanic is badly implemented (specifically, the recovery element) ... but that's another topic.

There are class features, spells, background feature and even a skill that allows you to get food and water easily.
Then why is this a racial feature? Leave it up to class, maybe. Be a Ranger ...

Diseases are rarely a problem. Really? Try bluerot, Salt Marsh adventures. I do not think your hand wave is correct here.

And warforged need to spend time in the inactive state. More time than elves, in fact. Which is, mechanically, sleep.
(I've already expressed my distaste for this elf "trance" thing ... but I guess that's baked in at this point).

[Keltest]

It's in Tasha's, is it not? The +2 and a feat?

The DMG even, if you're building it from scratch.

[KorvinStarmast]

The DMG even, if you're building it from scratch.
Never alloted the time to building a custom race (there are too many in the PHB as it is) so thanks for that. :smallsmile:

[J-H]

While I agree that I don't think the Reborn thing is bloated, disease immunity can be pretty strong. Normal diseases can be bad enough (but are usually also very easily treated) but there's also stuff like being immune to the Harm spell baked into it that rarely comes up, but is fantastic when it does.

Wait, I never noticed that. Is it explicit anywhere that immunity to disease prevents taking damage from Harm at all?

[Unoriginal]

"Gothic Lineages" means those are just variants of the Custom Lineage option from the Tasha's, no?

[Evaar]

Valor/Swords Bards and Rangers as well, will enjoy this. Heck, I can see one of those picking up this with Fey and Shadow Touched and just have all the spell options one could ever want. Honestly pretty much anything that has a limited number of spells known (even a warlock gets to spend their spells known on things-besides hex).

Wouldn't a ranger just use Hunter's Mark? I get the extra free cast per day, but it seems otherwise of pretty limited additional utility to them.

I agree about Swords Bard though, that's a good point. Some incentive to dual wield with them, maybe.

[Unoriginal]

Sorry for the double post


Wait, I never noticed that. Is it explicit anywhere that immunity to disease prevents taking damage from Harm at all?

Harm explicitly says it's a disease, so yes creatures and classes immune to diseases (including magical ones) are immune to it.

[Warder]

Wait, I never noticed that. Is it explicit anywhere that immunity to disease prevents taking damage from Harm at all?

Divine Health states that "By 3rd level, the divine magic flowing through you makes you immune to disease" and Harm damages you with "a virulent disease" so that's how it works, apparently. JC confirmed it on Twitter too.

[Lord Raziere]

....but why Dhampir? we already have Ixalan and Zendikar Vampire as races....do those somehow not count?

[J-H]

I've never heard of either one of those.

[KorvinStarmast]

I've never heard of either one of those. The 'Plane Shift' books are Magic, the Gathering flavored supplements that had little to no balance attempts made.

[thoroughlyS]

....but why Dhampir? we already have Ixalan and Zendikar Vampire as races....do those somehow not count?
The Plane Shift articles were never intended to be seen as full on supplements. They were just fun little things for people who play M:tG AND D&D (and if they happen to sell a few cards or books, who's going to complain). Word is that Ravenloft will be getting a book soon, so actually giving the concept a full swing makes sense. For what it's worth, I liked the Zendikar Vampire as a Dhampir, but I am open to seeing what else they can come up with.

[Luccan]

....but why Dhampir? we already have Ixalan and Zendikar Vampire as races....do those somehow not count?

I think the Plane Shift supplements are considered only semi-official by most people (and aren't allowed in AL). Also the Ixalan and Zendikar vampires are terrible.

[ProsecutorGodot]

....but why Dhampir? we already have Ixalan and Zendikar Vampire as races....do those somehow not count?

Plane Shift is more or less tangential content, explicitly stated to not be official and it will never be official. UA that ends up refined sees print in an actual DND release book, become official content.

That would be why they somehow don't count. And if this doesn't end up seeing print (which is highly unlikely, we've already been told Ravenloft is happening) then this won't count either.


The 'Plane Shift' books are Magic, the Gathering flavored supplements that had little to no balance attempts made.
And they're not at all shy about pointing that out, making clear that they're not thoroughly playtested or given iterative development. UA makes it clear that it's intended for playtesting.

[Lord Raziere]

Plane Shift is more or less tangential content, UA that ends up refined sees print in an actual DND release book.

That would be why they somehow don't count. And if this doesn't end up seeing print (which is highly unlikely, we've already been told Ravenloft is happening) then this won't count either.

*shakes head*

Sometimes I really don't get why people are so uptight about this. we're all about imagination aren't we? why do we waste so much time gatekeeping that imagination? making sure this or that isn't valid, isn't canon, isn't allowed just because? its not as if DnD is a particularly tight-knit or consistent setting...

[Nidgit]

Reborn are eh, Dhampir are pretty good, and Hexbloods are fantastic.

Everyone's out here talking about Dhampir Monk skill monkeys when Hexblood Monk is right there. Seriously, a Hexblood Shadow Monk with Disguise Self, Darkness, teleports, and ranged telepathy make for an unconscionably good scout; on top of that, Wis-based Hex for an extra 4d6 damage per turn is just absurd.

[thoroughlyS]

Sometimes I really don't get why people are so uptight about this. we're all about imagination aren't we? why do we waste so much time gatekeeping that imagination? making sure this or that isn't valid, isn't canon, isn't allowed just because? its not as if DnD is a particularly tight-knit or consistent setting...
I don't see it as gatekeeping. Far less people will know about that article than will see a new D&D book come out. So WotC is making a race for the new book.

[ProsecutorGodot]

*shakes head*

Sometimes I really don't get why people are so uptight about this. we're all about imagination aren't we? why do we waste so much time gatekeeping that imagination? making sure this or that isn't valid, isn't canon, isn't allowed just because? its not as if DnD is a particularly tight-knit or consistent setting...

Why do you need Zendikar or Ixelan to play a Dhampir? You don't need any of it, but it's not gatekeeping to make clear which content the designers push as core. I'm not the one who set these guidelines, they're recognized by the designer himself (in this case James Wyatt) as non-official.

It's quite ironic that you would respond this way after insisting we don't need a "3rd Dhampir", as if closing the door on further (play tested and developed) content isn't literal gatekeeping.

Why did they add Valenar and Aereni Elves with the release of Eberron. We already had Sun and Moon elves from FR.

[KorvinStarmast]

Sometimes I really don't get why people are so uptight about this. [snip] its not as if DnD is a particularly tight-knit or consistent setting... Well, not uptight, but I've seen previous editions become incoherent due to bloat 1. It's not as though there are not ample lessons to be learned from that. WoTC appears to be refusing to apply those lessons learned. That is to me, at least, disenheartening. (And the clue to me should have been the mess that is the yuan ti pureblood PC option ...)

I sincerely believe that setting and adventure products can keep being churned out, and other supplements if the quality control effort at balance is maintained with those lessons learned applied.

5e, on the main, applied most of them when it came out, with a few small holes here and there.

Nobody is gate keeping the fun of others, but since Public Play is a thing, and it is part of what the product audience has an expecation for, then balance does need to be important with each considered addition to the package.

1 Even Basic to Expert (B/X, then BECMI) ran into this problem as then want to Champion and Master and Immortal. It was, though, the best-organized case of controlled growth for an edition - in my opinion. 5e was doing OK on that score, and I'd like to see them not screw it up.

[micahaphone]

So what happens if a Cleric takes one of these lineages with the undead tag? What direction will Turn Undead make you run?

[KorvinStarmast]

So what happens if a Cleric takes one of these lineages with the undead tag? What direction will Turn Undead make you run? You'll run away from yourself, I guess. Perfect 'edgelord' PC. :smallbiggrin: Seems to be consistent in theme for this UA. I mean, it's entitled gothic, right? :smallbiggrin:

[Lord Raziere]

Why do you need Zendikar or Ixelan to play a Dhampir? You don't need any of it, but it's not gatekeeping to make clear which content the designers push as core. I'm not the one who set these guidelines, they're recognized by the designer himself (in this case James Wyatt) as non-official.

It's quite ironic that you would respond this way after insisting we don't need a "3rd Dhampir", as if closing the door on further (play tested and developed) content isn't literal gatekeeping.

Why did they add Valenar and Aereni Elves with the release of Eberron. We already had Sun and Moon elves from FR.

Hey don't be rude like that. don't twist my words around. thats not nice. :smallmad:

I have nothing against dhampirs, I want them, I was just confused since we already have rules to play them, so its like why is the rubber stamp needed? they were already there, but apparently they weren't official enough, and confused as to why it matters! so don't twist this into me not wanting them! got it?

[Dork_Forge]

*shakes head*

Sometimes I really don't get why people are so uptight about this. we're all about imagination aren't we? why do we waste so much time gatekeeping that imagination? making sure this or that isn't valid, isn't canon, isn't allowed just because? its not as if DnD is a particularly tight-knit or consistent setting...

We play a game to have some semblance of structure and balance, it isn't gate keeping, it's playing the game.

Those articles aren't well known and aren't balanced, so they aren't allowed in AL and not usually allowed by a lot of people in games.

If you want to allow imagination to run wild mechanically then there's probably better games to play than D&D.

[Ortho]

*shakes head*

I really don't get why people are so uptight about this. we're all about imagination aren't we? why do we waste so much time gatekeeping that imagination? people are so obsessed with meaningless validity....

For me, it's more of an indicator of quality. Official printings have been vetted by professional game designers, whereas the Planeshift stuff....wasn't? It was more of a side project that became unexpectedly popular, I think.

[KorvinStarmast]

I have nothing against dhampirs, I want them, I was just confused since we already have rules to play them, so its like why is the rubber stamp needed? I am guessing "Adventurers League" and "public play" figure into this somewhat. :smallconfused:

[ProsecutorGodot]

Hey don't be rude like that. don't twist my words around. thats not nice. :smallmad:

You asked how the plane shift versions don't count, you were given an answer. Then you implied (quoting me directly) that this was gatekeeping to suggest why this UA has dhampir.

Forgive me for misunderstanding, but you came off aggressively "anti this UA". I couldn't see much reason to ask why the previous two vampire PC races weren't adequate other than thinking this one was unnecessary.


they were already there, but apparently they weren't official enough, and confused as to why it matters! so don't twist this into me not wanting them! got it?
And I'd also appreciate you not further implying that I'm trying to gatekeep anyone from enjoying whatever imaginative content they desire by my personal preference of having officially supported versions of that content.

[Amnestic]

So what happens if a Cleric takes one of these lineages with the undead tag? What direction will Turn Undead make you run?

You can't move to a space within 30' of yourself, so you're unable to move.

You can't use reactions.

Depending on DM reading you either have to spend the dash action each turn (but unable to move anywhere) or you have to take the dodge action.

Same thing that happens if an Oath of Ancients Satyr turns itself.

[KorvinStarmast]

You can't move to a space within 30' of yourself, so you're unable to move.

You can't use reactions.

Depending on DM reading you either have to spend the dash action each turn (but unable to move anywhere) or you have to take the dodge action.

Same thing that happens if an Oath of Ancients Satyr turns itself. Yeah, makes sense, and that's able to be applied (probably just force the dodge action is the simplest solution).

[Temperjoke]

I s2g with as much complaining as comes out every time a UA appears, it's amazing that anything makes it to print at all.

The lineage rules are intended to help players and DMs create characters that make sense for their settings, as opposed to the Forgotten Realms defaults that are presented in the original core books. I've seen tons of threads either making fun of characters whose racial traits made no sense for the characters, or bitching about being stuck with Forgotten Realms stuff. Now we're finally given rules and support for how to divert from stock model characters and all I see is bitching about it.

On the topic of latest UA:

Overall, I think I like it. The humanoid/"something else" trait type else gives advantages and disadvantages. I think there should be a rule added regarding spell effect on mixed types, like you have resistance to a particular damage type instead of immunity due to your mixed race.

Reborn - This one is probably my favorite of the ones presented here. It opens the door for campaigns where you don't want resurrection to be a simple process, for example. I think it could still be adjusted, but it doesn't feel stronger on it's own than races that have already been put into print. My only issue with it is that the creators who put input on this section seemed to have different ideas in mind, like one person thought frankenstein's monster, which explains the past life remembrance stuff, while another seemed to be thinking more like android, which is where the eat/drink/breathe stuff came from.

[Unoriginal]

Hey don't be rude like that. don't twist my words around. thats not nice. :smallmad:

You're the one who called us imagination gatekeepers.



I have nothing against dhampirs, I want them, I was just confused since we already have rules to play them, so its like why is the rubber stamp needed? they were already there, but apparently they weren't official enough, and confused as to why it matters! so don't twist this into me not wanting them! got it?

Reasons as to why there is dhampirs in this UA:

-The Plane Shift content was (likely) not playtested by the same process as the usual UAs

-The Plane Shift content was not made by the same team as the ones who are working on the current books

-Years later, the current books team want to try a fresh take

-They're experimenting on the Lineage rules

-Many UAs ideas go through a lot of versions before finding something the writers like, they're testing the water with this one

[Lord Raziere]

You're the one who called us imagination gatekeepers.


Did not intend that. I didn't mean to call you anyone that. Please stop assuming that. Please drop this. Hint hint.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Did not intend that. I didn't mean to call you anyone that. Please stop assuming that.

You should probably explain what you intended to say then because this:

*shakes head*

Sometimes I really don't get why people are so uptight about this. we're all about imagination aren't we? why do we waste so much time gatekeeping that imagination? making sure this or that isn't valid, isn't canon, isn't allowed just because? its not as if DnD is a particularly tight-knit or consistent setting...
In response to those saying Plane Shift isn't "official" as a reason for why this UA would include a vampiric PC race doesn't communicate that well.

However, if that's really not what you intended I'm willing to forgive and forget.

[WaroftheCrans]

Isn't being humanoid and undead just...universally bad? I dunno how up to date this list is https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/5rgw5f/spells_by_affected_creature_types/

But assuming it covers most cases, you've got all the downsides of the undead type (hallow, sunburst, sunbeam, etc.) but because you're also humanoid none of the upsides (eg. dodging hold monster/person)

Yeah. this seems like a really poor attempt at balancing by making sure that these undead can be healed. Its just... bad.

Also, are there any actual released monsters that are multitype? Because this is the first I've seen of it in fifth edition.

[Luccan]

Yeah. this seems like a really poor attempt at balancing by making sure that these undead can be healed. Its just... bad.

Also, are there any actual released monsters that are multitype? Because this is the first I've seen of it in fifth edition.

Nope. Centaurs and Satyrs are Fey. Everything else is humanoid by default (including Warforged, I believe)

[Evaar]

Yeah. this seems like a really poor attempt at balancing by making sure that these undead can be healed. Its just... bad.

Also, are there any actual released monsters that are multitype? Because this is the first I've seen of it in fifth edition.

Yeah. I don't know. It does seem like it's a half-measure intended to make everyone happy, but the net effect is "nothing is different" really.

If they're afraid of messing with creature types too much, I'd rather it be something the player chooses at the end of a long rest - today I'm fully undead, maybe tomorrow I'm fully humanoid. That puts the onus on the player to decide what's worthwhile, if they want to be immune to humanoid-targeting spells but unable to be healed by the Cleric or whatever. It adds gameplay rather than removing it. And you can provide some flavor text for how each of those forms look and what it means; maybe there are even mechanical differences, but it doesn't need to go that far.

[micahaphone]

You can't move to a space within 30' of yourself, so you're unable to move.

You can't use reactions.

Depending on DM reading you either have to spend the dash action each turn (but unable to move anywhere) or you have to take the dodge action.

Same thing that happens if an Oath of Ancients Satyr turns itself.


Yeah, makes sense, and that's able to be applied (probably just force the dodge action is the simplest solution).


"You run away from yourself and have an existential crisis until you take a hit which snaps you back to the present"

[Taevyr]

Haven't read through the thread yet, but I just want to chime in with the hilarious visual of a Cleric using the Reborn/Dhampir template Turning him/herself :smallbiggrin:

More seriously, I don't like the use of multiple templates, I don't like the removal of specific racial modifiers (just change race to species as it should've been from the start rather than ruin what makes each species special), and I'm really disappointed that this is going to be the standard from now on. I quite prefer PF's use of ancestry over this flavorless lineage stuff, and unfortunately they seem set on continuing its use.

[ATHATH]

Should Dhampirs be given sunlight sensitivity, since they're related to vampires?

[ATHATH]

If they're afraid of messing with creature types too much, I'd rather it be something the player chooses at the end of a long rest - today I'm fully undead, maybe tomorrow I'm fully humanoid. That puts the onus on the player to decide what's worthwhile, if they want to be immune to humanoid-targeting spells but unable to be healed by the Cleric or whatever. It adds gameplay rather than removing it. And you can provide some flavor text for how each of those forms look and what it means; maybe there are even mechanical differences, but it doesn't need to go that far.
This gives off a Dark Souls vibe to me; I like it.

[Dark.Revenant]

Counting as both types is meant to be a compromise to add weaknesses to the race without absolutely crippling certain party dynamics, particularly with regards to healing. I'd be fine with different wording, like being Humanoid but then gaining a feature like:

Undead Essence. You have traits of both an undead and a humanoid. When subjected to a spell or other effect that affects or detects undead, you are affected or detected as if you are an undead creature. Otherwise, you count as a humanoid creature. For example, you can be healed by cure wounds, but protection from evil and good wards against your attacks.

[thoroughlyS]

@thoroughlyS has very kindly done a review of 'balance' using their formula that we are discussing in that thread, and Hexblood comes out in the OP range of 35.
I would like to say that I don't hold myself as any kind of authority on this subject. I am glad that someone has adopted my guide so readily.

[rlc]

Haven't read through the thread yet, but I just want to chime in with the hilarious visual of a Cleric using the Reborn/Dhampir template Turning him/herself :smallbiggrin:

More seriously, I don't like the use of multiple templates, I don't like the removal of specific racial modifiers (just change race to species as it should've been from the start rather than ruin what makes each species special), and I'm really disappointed that this is going to be the standard from now on. I quite prefer PF's use of ancestry over this flavorless lineage stuff, and unfortunately they seem set on continuing its use.
This isn’t even close to flavorless.

[Hael]

Pro: Spider climb
Con: Everything else. Can we talk about the state of the prose, and how poor the flavor is? It reads like a high schooler wrote it.

As far as balance, the only thing that bothered me was the empowered skill checks, but other than that, these are races I wouldn’t want to play. The mechanics are clumsy, and don’t really enable cool interactions. Usually races that give you attacks are underpowered in this edition, bc the designers think they’re a positive feature, when in fact they’re completely irrelevant after the early game.

For instance the only time the bite attack is going to be used, is when you have a restrained creature, and multiple turns of torture will need to be inflicted while the party waits for snack time to be over. Why isn’t that a glaringly obvious design snafu.

[Amechra]

For instance the only time the bite attack is going to be used, is when you have a restrained creature, and multiple turns of torture will need to be inflicted while the party waits for snack time to be over. Why isn’t that a glaringly obvious design snafu.

You might see it used if you have a Dhampyr Monk in the party? Then at least it would scale.

Honestly, though, the fact that the Dhampyr gives you a Con-based attack is interesting, and I hope they keep that part after scraping off the bad ideas.

[Unoriginal]

Yeah. this seems like a really poor attempt at balancing by making sure that these undead can be healed. Its just... bad.

Also, are there any actual released monsters that are multitype? Because this is the first I've seen of it in fifth edition.

The Tanarukk as both orc and demon listed as its subtypes.

[Sol0botmate]

Dhampir gets a Constitution based simple weapon attack. I'd try to work out a SAD Barbarian focused on Constitution, but the damage is only 1d4 so you'll just be tickling things with it. You could still make yourself useful by grappling stuff, but then you end up needing strength anyway.

I have to read everything very carefully first but remember that there are now options for better unarmed attacks like Simic Hybrid, Unarmed Fighting Style (d8 dice) and Path of the Beast (d6 magical damage +1 attack).

[MaxWilson]

You might see it used if you have a Dhampyr Monk in the party? Then at least it would scale.

Honestly, though, the fact that the Dhampyr gives you a Con-based attack is interesting, and I hope they keep that part after scraping off the bad ideas.

To me it seems more bizarre than interesting. What rationale, what physical mechanism, is supposed to be in play here? It's about as comprehensible as Cha-based movement rates or Str-based AC.

[thoroughlyS]

The Tanarukk as both orc and demon listed as its subtypes.
Those aren't types, those are tags. Tanarukk's only have the fiend type.

I have to read everything very carefully first but remember that there are now options for better unarmed attacks like Simic Hybrid, Unarmed Fighting Style (d8 dice) and Path of the Beast (d6 magical damage +1 attack).
Weirdly, the Dhampyr bite is a simple melee weapon, not an unarmed strike.

[Sigreid]

Those aren't types, those are tags. Tanarukk's only have the fiend type.

Weirdly, the Dhampyr bite is a simple melee weapon, not an unarmed strike.

Thus a paladin could have a smite bite.

[OracleofWuffing]

My headcannon involves a Dhampir that craves Esoteric Humors, and sates it by scrying up internet memes. :smalltongue:

[Lupine]

Shame it wouldn't work with sneak attack. Powerbiting people as a rogue is a funny image to me.

That would be EXTREMELY over powered. Rogues can easily do 26 damage at level 10, equating to a 52 damage swing, that you could do three times in a pinch.

The thing that strikes me odd about the dhampir is that they get standard 60 ft darkvision. It would be far more flavorful to give them 120 with sunlight sensativity, drow style. Really drive the “you are part vampire”

[Dienekes]

To me it seems more bizarre than interesting. What rationale, what physical mechanism, is supposed to be in play here? It's about as comprehensible as Cha-based movement rates or Str-based AC.

Their suck capacity, I’d wager.

[KorvinStarmast]

"You run away from yourself and have an existential crisis until you take a hit which snaps you back to the present" Heh, that works too. And it's a bit funnier. :smallcool:
I would like to say that I don't hold myself as any kind of authority on this subject. I am glad that someone has adopted my guide so readily. Each of the tools folks have come up has their strengths and weaknesses, to be sure. I certainly appreciate the work you have put in, and I really liked the two sheets that showed the across the board comparison and then the "here's how I'd try to level things a bit" - inexact, as a lot of balance efforts are, but worth considering as a balance consideration the next time someone says "what if we ..."

[Zevox]

Huh. Well, I don't mind this lineages idea itself, but I don't think any of these are for me, personally. Closest thing to one I'd consider playing is the Hexblood, and even then, I doubt it - I just at least understand why there might be appeal to playing a character with such a close connection to Hags (and the "Magic Token" ability in particular is legitimately a cool, flavorful way to portray that). I definitely wouldn't want to play a Dhampir, personally, and I don't even understand Reborn. Much like the Reborn Rogue subclass, they just seem like an odd mish-mash of strange concepts to me - the most coherent one being the elements clearly based on Frankenstein, while others like "you were resurrected with magic, but something went wrong" don't even make sense to me on a base level. What went wrong? How? Why? Why would this weird combination of maybe-undead-maybe-not traits and amnesia be the result? Why is this whole lineage being so vague about what it is and why it exists?* It's all just odd to me.

Still, these things don't need to appeal to me personally - Hexblood and Dhampir at least are fine. I just really don't get Reborn.

*Actually, that's a bit of a problem for all of them, I think. They're so vague that it takes a while to even figure out what the concept even is. Dhampir and Hexblood it just eventually becomes clear are basically Vampire Spawn and some kind of Hag child as the baseline, with a little wiggle room left for there being non-standard ways you might have ended up that way or slight variations in how your specific case works. Reborn just feels like it's so vague about what it is that it lacks even that much baseline to grab onto to understand it.

[Dark.Revenant]

I don't even understand Reborn. Much like the Reborn Rogue subclass, they just seem like an odd mish-mash of strange concepts to me - the most coherent one being the elements clearly based on Frankenstein, while others like "you were resurrected with magic, but something went wrong" don't even make sense to me on a base level. What went wrong? How? Why? Why would this weird combination of maybe-undead-maybe-not traits and amnesia be the result? Why is this whole lineage being so vague about what it is and why it exists?* It's all just odd to me.

I just really don't get Reborn.

*Reborn just feels like it's so vague about what it is that it lacks even that much baseline to grab onto to understand it.

The Monster (Frankenstein)
Alphonse Elric (Fullmetal Alchemist)
Duane Adelier (Unsounded)
The Returned, e.g. Lightsong (Warbreaker)
V/Johnny Silverhand (Cyberpunk 2077)

[KorvinStarmast]

The Monster (Frankenstein) All we now need is minion rules to allow for a mob to follow it around with pitchforks and torches. (I alluded to that up thread, but being an old AD&D 1e and Original player, minions and henchmen are kinda hard wired into my feel for the game ... :smallannoyed:

[Zevox]

The Monster (Frankenstein)
Alphonse Elric (Fullmetal Alchemist)
Duane Adelier (Unsounded)
The Returned, e.g. Lightsong (Warbreaker)
V/Johnny Silverhand (Cyberpunk 2077)
Then perhaps part of the issue is that the only one of those I'm at all familiar with is Frankenstein. I've heard of Fullmetal Alchemist and Cyberpunk as series, but have never had any interest in them and know very little about them, including not having heard those characters' names before. And I haven't even heard of the other two.

Do any of those possess enough similarities to Frankenstein's monster to warrant mashing the concepts together like this? Because it really feels like they're trying to mash together some rather disparate things that may not belong together, at least to my perspective.

[Dark.Revenant]

Then perhaps part of the issue is that the only one of those I'm at all familiar with is Frankenstein. I've heard of Fullmetal Alchemist and Cyberpunk as series, but have never had any interest in them and know very little about them, including not having heard those characters' names before. And I haven't even heard of the other two.

Do any of those possess enough similarities to Frankenstein's monster to warrant mashing the concepts together like this? Because it really feels like they're trying to mash together some rather disparate things that may not belong together, at least to my perspective.

I listed those five mostly because they're the ones I'm most familiar with, and that they're from a wide variety of media types.

We all know about Frankenstein's Monster.

Alphonse Elric, one of the two main characters of Fullmetal Alchemist, died in an alchemy accident and was—miraculously—brought back to "life" when his brother (the other protagonist) sacrificed another of his own limbs to shove Al's soul into a nearby suit of armor. Essentially, Alphonse became an animated suit of armor.

Duane Adelier, one of the two main characters of Unsounded (webcomic), was assassinated and then brought back to "life" by turning him into a novel type of zombie, maintaining his mind, magic powers, and free will but trapped in his own rotting corpse. He's practically a lich.

The Returned are explored in Warbreaker (modern novel). They are people who have died but thereafter spontaneously returned to life with divinely perfect ageless bodies that lack pesky mortal constraints like the need to eat or drink, although they do have to periodically consume energy in the form of "breaths", which is basically a magical currency that everyone is born with exactly one of.

V and Johnny Silverhand both die, but V is brought back to life with the extra baggage of Johnny Silverhand's pseudo-AI copy (he's also long-dead) floating around in his head. Both of their memories and mannerisms start to blend together, causing a great deal of drama.

[Arkhios]

Thus a paladin could have a smite bite.

Long Death Monk could make good use of their bite!

Simple Weapons are monk weapons!

[Waterdeep Merch]

Since it's very likely these were created with Ravenloft specifically in mind, the Reborn covers archetypes that could be common in Lamordia or Nova Vaasa (sentient flesh golems) or Barovia, Darkon, or Har'Akir (necromancy), and likely many other domains that I've forgotten about. It's also useful for applying post-mortem to a player after befalling a terrible fate (what I'm presently considering it for).

If I have a core issue, it's the same one I have with the Hexblood- it's covering too much. It seems like Reborn should work like subraces traditionally have, with two variants based on whether you're a mad science experiment or a zombie. That way you're not left with overly generic abilities that try to cover concepts that could have a lot of room for more interesting things.

[msfnc]

I just want to point out that vampires can’t procreate through traditional conception methods. Canonically, they must have permission to come inside.


I’m so ashamed of myself...

[micahaphone]

I just want to point out that vampires can’t procreate through traditional conception methods. Canonically, they must have permission to come inside.


I’m so ashamed of myself...

that's absolutely terrible you should be proud of that one.

But with how people are reacting to the new resident evil trailer, I think some people might create characters with their lineage along a different route.

[Thunderous Mojo]

You're the one who called us imagination gatekeepers.
In some ways this describes the Muses.😃

Actually, this quote is inspiring me to make a Vampire like "Gatekeeper of Imagination". Instead of a Charm power,(or addition to), the creature has an aura similar to the Slow spell, which reflects it's being the gatekeeper to the plane of imagination.

Sounds perfect for my reimagining/conversion of Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth.

Thanks Unoriginal! My players should hate it🖖

[Greywander]

Didn't read the whole thread, but I wanted to throw my thoughts out there, specifically regarding how the dual-typing is handled: I don't like it.

I've worked on an undead race/template, including dual-typed humanoid/undead. Cure Wounds (and such) specifically state that it does not work on undead. Because a humanoid/undead is undead, Cure Wounds should not work on them. Basically, they way they're handling it is that all effects have a set of creature types that they effect. Because Cure Wounds affects humanoids, they're saying a humanoid/undead can benefit from Cure Wounds. That's not how I see it. Every ability either (a) only affects specific creature types (e.g. Turn Undead only affecting undead), or (b) affects everyone except certain creature types (e.g. Cure Wounds not affecting undead and constructs). Charm Person is type (a), and thus affects a humanoid/undead because they are a humanoid. Cure Wounds is type (b), and thus does not affect a humanoid/undead, because they have one of the banned creature types.

Also, I made a generic undead template. You can apply it on top of an existing race. By my estimates, it's mostly power neutral: you get some benefits like immunity to poison, darkvision, and not needing to eat or sleep, but being undead just by itself is actually a huge downside. You're susceptible to Turn Undead, Protection from Evil and Good, Detect Evil and Good, smites do more damage to you, and most (but not all) healing and resurrection spells don't work on you. If you want to play an undead without losing out on a race and without becoming stronger than your party members, this is probably the best way to do it.

In my mind, part of the reason to play an undead is to embrace all the challenges that come with it; having to hide your true nature, suffering affects that don't harm the living, and having to work around the lack of healing.

[JackPhoenix]

So what happens if a Cleric takes one of these lineages with the undead tag? What direction will Turn Undead make you run?

You explode, as your particles try to get as far away from each other as possible. Roll a new character.


To me it seems more bizarre than interesting. What rationale, what physical mechanism, is supposed to be in play here? It's about as comprehensible as Cha-based movement rates or Str-based AC.

More constitution allows you to suck harder and longer?


Snip

As someone who decided to skip CP2077 until the bugs are fixed, thanks for the spoiler.

[micahaphone]

if it's any consolation, that cyberpunk spoiler is in the game trailers, some real opening setup stuff.

[MoiMagnus]

To me it seems more bizarre than interesting. What rationale, what physical mechanism, is supposed to be in play here? It's about as comprehensible as Cha-based movement rates or Str-based AC.

Con attacks works reasonably well to represent "blood magic", though they make much more sense when it is abilities that cost you HP, not grand you additional HP, so I don't think that's what they went with here.

Having "primal instincts" be based on Con instead of Wis (which I think is the default in RAW) is something I've done in a lot of homebrews, and I think that's what they're going with. You even get advantage when at low HP, probably to represent the fact that your survival instincts take precedence over your normal behaviour.

[AdAstra]

The execution and specific concept don't have any draw for me, but this is pretty much exactly what I wanted in terms of design philosophy looking at the changes in Tashas and what they could mean going forwards, so that's cool.

[Hannibal78]

College of Whispers Bard can be interesting to play with Psychic Blades and Dhampir Bite.
Especially if you choose the Psychic Vampire origin with Psychic energy Dhampir Hungers.
From the Bard spell list, you can have, use, a lot of Vampire characteristic :)

[Azuresun]

But looking through them, Vampires, Witches, and Zombies but no Werewolf? Disappointing.

The Shifter from Eberron is already perfect for a "semi-lycanthrope" character.


Excellent, now I can use this UA and the Shifter race from eberron to make my sonic OC. His name is Noctis, he's the edgier twin of shadow

Remember to pick up Misty Step, so he can teleport behind people before attacking.

[Willie the Duck]

Huh. Well, I don't mind this lineages idea itself, but I don't think any of these are for me, personally.

Kind of where I am as well. It is annoying -- it looks like they are making the 'crib-swapped by fey' concept be a vestigial add-on to Hexblood, which is too bad (as I think that's honestly at least as interesting a concept as being hag-adjacent, and deserving of its own write-up.

[KorvinStarmast]

I listed those five mostly because they're the ones I'm most familiar with, and that they're from a wide variety of media types.

We all know about Frankenstein's Monster.

Alphonse Elric, {snip}

Duane Adelier, {snip}.

The Returned are explored in Warbreaker (modern novel). {snip}

V and Johnny Silverhand both die, but V {snip} And Doc Bruce Banner should have been killed when that experiment went wrong, but he didin't, so we get The Hulk.

Only Frank seems a very close fit, genre wise, to the D&D schtick, though it's a little bit of a reach. Flesh Golems fit into Frank; there's a manual for that. :smallcool:

[PhantomSoul]

Didn't read the whole thread, but I wanted to throw my thoughts out there, specifically regarding how the dual-typing is handled: I don't like it.

I've worked on an undead race/template, including dual-typed humanoid/undead. Cure Wounds (and such) specifically state that it does not work on undead. Because a humanoid/undead is undead, Cure Wounds should not work on them. Basically, they way they're handling it is that all effects have a set of creature types that they effect. Because Cure Wounds affects humanoids, they're saying a humanoid/undead can benefit from Cure Wounds. That's not how I see it. Every ability either (a) only affects specific creature types (e.g. Turn Undead only affecting undead), or (b) affects everyone except certain creature types (e.g. Cure Wounds not affecting undead and constructs). Charm Person is type (a), and thus affects a humanoid/undead because they are a humanoid. Cure Wounds is type (b), and thus does not affect a humanoid/undead, because they have one of the banned creature types.

Also, I made a generic undead template. You can apply it on top of an existing race. By my estimates, it's mostly power neutral: you get some benefits like immunity to poison, darkvision, and not needing to eat or sleep, but being undead just by itself is actually a huge downside. You're susceptible to Turn Undead, Protection from Evil and Good, Detect Evil and Good, smites do more damage to you, and most (but not all) healing and resurrection spells don't work on you. If you want to play an undead without losing out on a race and without becoming stronger than your party members, this is probably the best way to do it.

In my mind, part of the reason to play an undead is to embrace all the challenges that come with it; having to hide your true nature, suffering affects that don't harm the living, and having to work around the lack of healing.

Agreed for dual-typing being possible to do well and being better to do exactly how they didn't do it (I've had it in a game for a few years, alongside subtypes for which you're more resistant to things that only affect your subtype and to which you're not explicitly immune/unaffected). We've also had an undead character and playing around what happened to the actual character was part of the fun and forced us to think of different tactics. Removing it being relevant to the character just makes it pointless fluff (with even the narrative potential being hamstrung because it's clearly not doing anything).

[jojosskul]

So, for the Dhampyr specifically, I think this UA version of the dual creature type actually works. I guess I'm envisioning them as a Blade type half-blood vampire. The point isn't that you're full on undead, you're both undead and humanoid AT THE SAME TIME. This gives you certain benefits of both types, in this case always on spider climb and being able to be affected by healing spells, and certain drawbacks, such being affected by Protection From Evil and Good and Hold/Charm Person.

Depending on the type of Dhampyr character, I feel like this instance of dual typing works narratively almost across the board. I have a bit more issue with it on the Reborn side of things. One of the examples they give is of a formerly controlled undead minion gaining sentience/free will. Biologically, wouldn't they still be undead with that origin? By giving that as an example it sends mixed signals.

There are certain characters who this DOES work for: Botched resurrections, flesh golem (Frankenstein's monster) types, cyborgs, revenents, The Nameless One. But a common zombie suddenly becoming both undead and humanoid just because they gain sentience doesn't sit right with me. There are PLENTY of sentient undead that aren't "humanoid" already, as well as other monsters.

[Scarytincan]

Ya I kind of feel like the time to address dual creature types /non humanoids was when they made warforged. Should those not be constructs, or at least dual as well? Ehhh.....

[KorvinStarmast]

Ya I kind of feel like the time to address dual creature types /non humanoids was when they made warforged. Should those not be constructs, or at least dual as well? Ehhh..... They are gonna violate the KISS principle all over the place if they deviate from "each creature has a type" model that is in both the MM and the PHB(humanoid). The Satyr as Fey is already problematic for a least one reason ... and they didn't have to do that. Aasimar are humanoid, why did they decide to make satyr's fey in Theors? :smallconfused:

[Damon_Tor]

I'm strongly considering turning my Gnome battlesmith into a Construct Returned. He's already "merged" with his defender, the two of them acting like a single creature for most purposes, this would take it to the next level, replacing his body with a clockwork replica, maybe his brain floating in a briny tank. Mechanically, he would lose the excellent gnomish save advantage, but he would gain the ability to be healed by the defender as an action.

[Luccan]

They are gonna violate the KISS principle all over the place if they deviate from "each creature has a type" model that is in both the MM and the PHB(humanoid). The Satyr as Fey is already problematic for a least one reason ... and they didn't have to do that. Aasimar are humanoid, why did they decide to make satyr's fey in Theors? :smallconfused:

Unless Theros Satyrs have a human origin I'm unaware of, at least it's consistent with the MM, unlike Centaurs. The problem is creature types have inconsistent importance in 5e, so you get something like Fey or Undead that come with advantages and drawbacks and then you have most other non-humanoid types which would be entirely better than Humanoid.

[werescythe]

https://media.wizards.com/2021/dnd/downloads/UA2021_GothicLineages.pdf

They look interesting. I'm hoping they'll make an aberration themed linage as well. Give us some tentacles. :smallbiggrin:

[Arkhios]

They are gonna violate the KISS principle all over the place if they deviate from "each creature has a type" model that is in both the MM and the PHB(humanoid). The Satyr as Fey is already problematic for a least one reason ... and they didn't have to do that. Aasimar are humanoid, why did they decide to make satyr's fey in Theors? :smallconfused:

Satyr have always been Fey, at least since 3rd edition (some sources claim they hailed from Feywild even in 1st and 2nd edition, but IIRC, the term Feywild hasn't been used before 4th edition, so I'm taking that much with a grain of salt). Don't see why would they be anything else now, though.

Aasimar and Tieflings were "Outsider (Native)" in 3rd edition, meaning that while they could certainly trace their origins back to planar outsiders (essentially celestials and fiends of 5th edition, respectively) they were native to the prime material and were mostly humans, regardless of certain telltale features that suggest otherwise.

[Ettina]

They look interesting. I'm hoping they'll make an aberration themed linage as well. Give us some tentacles. :smallbiggrin:

Simic hybrid can have tentacles if you want.

[Ettina]

Alphonse Elric, one of the two main characters of Fullmetal Alchemist, died in an alchemy accident and was—miraculously—brought back to "life" when his brother (the other protagonist) sacrificed another of his own limbs to shove Al's soul into a nearby suit of armor. Essentially, Alphonse became an animated suit of armor.

I'd stat Alphonse as a warforged. Reborn doesn't fit him at all, except for him having a similar backstory. He doesn't have amnesia, and that seems pretty core to Reborn.

[Dark.Revenant]

I'd stat Alphonse as a warforged. Reborn doesn't fit him at all, except for him having a similar backstory. He doesn't have amnesia, and that seems pretty core to Reborn.

Yeah, I'd agree that the amnesia thing missed the mark in terms of what people would actually play this race for.

[Witty Username]

I feel like if these are the new races, why don't they just make them feats for use with custom lineage. Also, I dislike the notion that culture will no longer have any in game effect. Sure, tying it to race maybe wrong, but that doesn't mean get rid of it. This also creates more work with less tools for DMs I feel.
And the frustrating thing is I like the Tasha's rules. But they work as a tool for fixing design mistakes and improving creativity. Not removing all forms of suggestion.
And I will continue to be annoyed that races get to be this free form while the classes get are still as restricted in theme and function.

[MaxieZeus]

I literally just made a homebrew Vampire Spawn race for my player (they are all in on it because they want to play hardcore classic vampire with all the weaknesses), but i was struggling to figure out a way to balance the vampire bite ability.

How balanced do you think the bite is?

[ProsecutorGodot]

I feel like if these are the new races, why don't they just make them feats for use with custom lineage. Also, I dislike the notion that culture will no longer have any in game effect.

What do you mean? For the current races, there's no reason you can't opt to change nothing and keep the cultural influence they have by default. For the ones in this UA, there isn't really a specific cultural fit but it leaves all the room you need to put your character squarely in to one.

The rules have essentially changed from "these are what the culture your race is a part of provides you" to "perhaps other cultures have influenced you"

I have an Aasimar Wizard in my Frostmaided campaign who decided that they had been raised by elves to reflect their choices in language and ability scores. It's a large part of the players roleplaying.



And I will continue to be annoyed that races get to be this free form while the classes get are still as restricted in theme and function.
I also don't understand what you mean by this... do you mean in terms of what we have released or how they can be played?

[IsaacsAlterEgo]

Love these. Tasha's changes were good, like to see them keeping up, and I've been waiting for a way to play an undead character since FOREVER. I'm even currently playing a Dhampir character in a game, we just homebrewed it due to there being no pre-existing rules. Our version was a lot lower impact, so I'm excited to see how this one plays.

Keep the player options coming! There's still so many non-represented races/racial archetypes that I'd love to see those pop up, especially in lineage form like this so they're pretty open-ended.

[werescythe]

Simic hybrid can have tentacles if you want.

Yes... and no. There are some DMs that are a little bit standoffish when it comes to MtG content and might not be willing to try to find a way to work the Simic Hybrid into their setting (even if you can argue that your a mutant who is just using Simic Hybrid stats).

Plus the grappling appendages is more of an option and less of an emphasis (which is what I would like to see).

[Witty Username]

What do you mean? For the current races, there's no reason you can't opt to change nothing and keep the cultural influence they have by default. For the ones in this UA, there isn't really a specific cultural fit but it leaves all the room you need to put your character squarely in to one.

The rules have essentially changed from "these are what the culture your race is a part of provides you" to "perhaps other cultures have influenced you"

I have an Aasimar Wizard in my Frostmaiden campaign who decided that they had been raised by elves to reflect their choices in language and ability scores. It's a large part of the players roleplaying.
What I am more frustrated by is so far their is no framework for cultural influences, I don't mind creative freedom but if it doesn't have examples and frameworks it just means more work for the DM. That an I am making the assumption, possibly unfounded, that this is a sea change that will effect all races moving forward.



I also don't understand what you mean by this... do you mean in terms of what we have released or how they can be played?
How they can be played, one of my recurring gripes is classes being shoehorned into a particular ascetic, mostly things like rogues only being able to sneak attack with finesse weapons and ranged weapons(I believe this is about theme rather than balance or realism) and Barbarians being unable to benefit from rage/reckless attack and use dex to attack. I recognize it is a minor thing but it has been irking me more as this more free form take on races has come into effect.

[Tanarii]

These are incomplete races. They lack the Ability Score Increase trait, the Language trait, the Alignment trait, and any other trait that is purely cultural.

I've lost all faith in WotC at this point. It's one thing to address a moral panic, but another to destroy your own game in the process.

[Arkhios]

These are incomplete races. They lack the Ability Score Increase trait, the Language trait, the Alignment trait, and any other trait that is purely cultural.

I've lost all faith in WotC at this point. It's one thing to address a moral panic, but another to destroy your own game in the process.

Well, they do refer to Tasha's Custom Lineages...

[Tanarii]

Well, they do refer to Tasha's Custom Lineages...

Which were supposed to be optional.

The truth of that has become clear.

[Amnestic]

Which were supposed to be optional.

The truth of that has become clear.

These races are also optional :)

[Tanarii]

These races are also optional :)
The UA included an explicit statement that Tasha's rules are now official for D&D products going forward.

They lied.

[Arkhios]

The UA included an explicit statement that Tasha's rules are now official for D&D products going forward.

They lied.

Official and Optional do not exclude each other.

Variant Humans, Feats, and Multiclassing are all Optional rules, and yet, Official all the same. And very popular.

No lies have been made. Tasha's Custom Lineage may be optional, but it's still no less official. They are well within their rights and integrity to expand on the concept further.

I for one welcome this new direction, even if it was for expanded optional rule, and I'd recommend keeping in mind that these, as Unearthed Arcana articles by default, are not finalized rules. If you think they're missing something, give them feedback about it when the opportunity presents itself.

[Valmark]

These are incomplete races. They lack the Ability Score Increase trait, the Language trait, the Alignment trait, and any other trait that is purely cultural.

I've lost all faith in WotC at this point. It's one thing to address a moral panic, but another to destroy your own game in the process.
Funnily enough ASIs and Languages are in the very first page.

Official and Optional do not exclude each other.

Variant Humans, Feats, and Multiclassing are all Optional rules, and yet, Official all the same. And very popular.

No lies have been made. Tasha's Custom Lineage may be optional, but it's still no less official. They are well within their rights and integrity to expand on the concept further.


Pretty much all this too.

[Amnestic]

I'd recommend keeping in mind that these, as Unearthed Arcana articles by default, are not finalized rules. If you think they're missing something, give them feedback about it when the opportunity presents itself.

One thing of concern is Reborn can be constructs-type, opening them up to Mending healing.

If Warforged don't get that there's zero way the Reborn should.

[Arkhios]

One thing of concern is Reborn can be constructs-type, opening them up to Mending healing.

If Warforged don't get that there's zero way the Reborn should.

Tell it to them, not me! :smallbiggrin:

Once they open the survey, have at it.

[Dr. Cliché]

{scrubbed}

With regard to the meat of the UA, I normally like options with a gothic flavour but these just feel like an absolute mess. {scrubbed} :smallyuk:

More specifically:

- Hybrid races. No. Just no. It's a terrible idea that breaks all established rules of the system and will lead to all manner of rules conflicts and stuff just plain not making sense. The Dhampir seems like the worst example - I don't care if he's a half-vampire, he's either living or undead. Kindly pick one. If you want him to lean more towards life (which would certainly make more sense for a PC race), fine. If you want to make a bold move and make him undead, also fine. But don't give me any of this "well he's sort of undead but also sort of not undead when it happens to be convenient".

- The Dhampir looks... functional? Spider Climb seems quite strong but I don't know whether it would be game-breakingly so. Certainly a fun ability to have. As for the bite, is there any reason it couldn't just have been a versatile weapon (so Str or Dex)? Making it Constitution-based feels out of place and out of line with the very vampires the Dahmpir was supposedly spawned from.

Also, there's a table of Hungers . . . which have absolutely no mechanical effect whatsoever. I guess A Dhampir who "hungers" for blood really just likes it now and again, you know, if it's okay with everyone else.

Moreover, I can't help but notice that there's absolutely no explanation given of how the Dhampir is supposed to sate these hungers. How precisely does a Dhampir feed on "dreams" or "psychic energy" or "A color from one’s appearance"? What does that last one even mean? :smallconfused:

Hell, I'm not even sure there's a mechanical way for the Dhampir to feed on blood. His bite doesn't inflict necrotic damage (which was what I always took to represent the actual blood drained by the bites of true vampires), so seemingly he just sort of nips his victims.

To me at least, it just doesn't seem particularly well thought-out and there's a clear fracture between the fluff and the mechanics.


- Hexblood. Magic Token is somewhat interesting but I have to wonder whether it really justifies an entirely new race (especially one which breaks previously established rules on creatures only ever having one type). It seems like this concept would be better represented with something like the Archfey Warlock or Glamour Bard (and even the race doesn't seem substantially different mechanically from an Elf or maybe a Changeling).

To be clear, I don't hate the idea of a 'hagspawn'-type race. I just don't think this iteration is mechanically different enough from other races to really justify itself.

Incidentally, I know I've harped on this already but the fact that these races are tainted by the festering sewage of Tasha's really doesn't help matters. The ability score improvements of the Hexspawn could have helped differentiate it from elves and changelings, whilst also giving an indication of where these creatures' strengths tend to lie. Instead, we're stuck with the flavourless 'pick & mix', which doesn't exactly help to differentiate or characterise them.


- Reborn. An interesting concept, marred by terrible execution. Why is this a dual-type? Hell, one of the possible origins is literally "You were a necromancer’s undead servant for years. One day, your consciousness returned." Okay. So how did you become living (half-living) again? And what exactly is a half-construct? If construct is good enough for a flesh-golem, surely it should be good enough for a PC basically playing as a flesh golem?

Sigh.

There's also a similar issue as with the Hexblood, in that, while the fluff hints at some great possibilities, the mechanics seem barely different from those of a Warforged.

However, I think there's an additional problem with Deathless Traits (and many similar abilities). It was something that came up in a discussion of mid-high level Monks. Namely, how many of their abilities make you immune (or near enough) to something or mean you don't have to do something else. e.g. immunity to poison and disease, don't need to eat or drink, big bonus to all saving throws and can reroll failed ones etc.

What we were discussing was that, whilst these things seem very useful mechanically, they also tend to rob the character of many roleplaying opportunities. Maybe some will disagree, but I think there tend to be more RPing opportunities for characters who get hungry than for ones who never need to eat. Likewise, I think there are more opportunities for characters who can be poisoned or get sick, compared to those who are outright immune to either.

Now, in the case of the Reborn, I can understand these traits being there (or at least I would if they were actually constructs or undead, rather than completely nonsensical half-breeds). It's more that I don't think they're particularly interesting traits, especially when they seem to form the meat of the race.


I think my biggest recurring issue with these races (beyond the Tasha's taint and the indecisive creature types) is that their fluff seems to exist almost in another reality from their actual mechanics. Part of that, I think, is WotC trying to have their cake and eat it. They want grim, gothic races that have tragic pasts, curses, and/or are the spawn of deathless nightmares . . . yet they also want none of that to actually impact them mechanically.

e.g. A Dhampir who hungers for blood can go his entire life without ever drinking blood and won't suffer for it at all. A Reborn might be a literal Frankenstein's Monsters, who comprises not only a multitude of different creatures but also a horrifying mishmash of the minds of those creatures . . . and yet this is only ever advantageous and doesn't convey even a single mechanical penalty. One might think that a former(?) undead servant or someone who literally just crawled out of a grave might have trouble in casual conversation, reflected perhaps in some penalty to his Persuade(Cha) skill, but nope, you can be just as persuasive as the next man.

And I realise that not everything need to have a specified mechanical impact. It just seems rather odd to so heavily emphasise the tragedy and horror of these races, only for their mechanics to be 100% positive, often without even the slightest reference to many of the core elements of their fluff. :smalltongue:

[Xervous]

Quiet down a bit on the Tasha’s bashing. It’s one thing for them to pander and bandaid it over races, actively imbalancing things. Here they’ve got the concept in place from the start and are providing an opportunity for input on how choose your own ability bumps should be balanced. Instead of frothing and ranting for a revision like a different crowd, how about addressing these templates in the same vein that Tasha+Dwarf or Yuanti are criticized?

[Dr. Cliché]

Quiet down a bit on the Tasha’s bashing.

I promise I'll shut up about Tasha's just as soon as WotC admit it was a colossal misstep and throw the entire, ill-conceived idea into the garbage where it belongs.

[PhantomSoul]

Quiet down a bit on the Tasha’s bashing.

They have to earn that first. Tasha's didn't earn it, and now they're doubling down on it. They could have just put that it's your choice of ASIs into the ASI line with fluff about different pre-pseudo-template origins, but instead they're explicitly doubling down on their boring and uninspiring way to reduce species differences without even pretending they're giving value to their own previous statements.

EDIT for clarity: Them reminding of their roles, optional or not, is fine. But they have to support the original and non-optional systems, especially since Tasha's rules are explicitly phrased to deal with that to begin with. This is not "you can choose whether you like the variant" (which would be fine even if I think their optional rule is boring, uninspiring drivel); it's "we're seeing if we can stop making any effort and/or if we can avoid not seeming woke by not putting ASIs at all".


And I realise that not everything need to have a specified mechanical impact. It just seems rather odd to so heavily emphasise the tragedy and horror of these races, only for their mechanics to be 100% positive, often without even the slightest reference to many of the core elements of their fluff. :smalltongue:

"Comments are good for the Youtube algorithm."

Well with all the great discussion they've gotten from Druids "will not wear armor or use shields made of metal", they decided they wanted more of that quality content.

[Avonar]

There is certainly a lot of doomsaying over these Custom Lineages, isn't there? I like them, as do most of the people I play with. Let's not forget this the big banner that says "This is playtest" before we go throwing around assumptions on anything. No, Tasha's will absolutely not lead to the death of 5e or any of that silliness.


I promise I'll shut up about Tasha's just as soon as WotC admit it was a colossal misstep and throw the entire, ill-conceived idea into the garbage where it belongs.

And if a good number of people enjoy the changes, what does that mean then?

Back to the point.

I'm not a fan of the dual-typing, mostly because I imagine it opens up so more more ways for potentially incredible or nasty interractions to be missed when planning future stuff. Plus it adds confusion for things like Cure Wounds that say it doesn't work on undead, but it's fine because you're only a little undead?

Dhampir

Boy am I not a fan of this. Innate spider-climb puts it in the same realm as innate flying, not quite as bad sure but still. And the bite to boost your next thing, I don't know it was intentional but the ability to take some of a party member's health for a large boost to whatever you are doing is pretty something. If you have a bard in the party too, you can probably get an unreasonable boost to whatever it is you're trying.


Hexblood

Seems fine? Nothing about the class makes me interested in playing it, but I wouldn't shut it down for a game I'm DMing. The class features just all being free casts of spells is not overly exciting, with Magic Token just being some weird mish-mash of Sending and Find Familiar. Not a fan of pulling body parts off/out though, but that's just me.


Reborn

Again, mechanically nothing interesting. You get a bunch of immunities and free bardic inspirations. It's fine.


My main issue with these, particularly Dhampir and Reborn, is that they reduce the number of things that can challenge you. A Dhampir barely has to worry about climbing up/down, about crossing a bridge etc., just spider climb your way round it. Meanwhile the Reborn gets to ignore suffocating, gets an easy time of swimming, foraging for food becomes irrelevant, no worry about being attacked as you sleep. I don't like classes that strip down the number of things to throw at a party.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I promise I'll shut up about Tasha's just as soon as WotC admit it was a colossal misstep and throw the entire, ill-conceived idea into the garbage where it belongs.

It's easy to forget that us here on the forums are a small but vocal minority. I'm thinking its an awful safe bet to assume that your opinion is in the minority in regards to the larger (and growing everyday) audience they're trying to reach.

You're welcome to not like it, there are large parts of it that I'm still not a fan of, but does it really kill the game? Not likely, not even close.


They have to earn that first. Tasha's didn't earn it, and now they're doubling down on it. They could have just put that it's your choice of ASIs into the ASI line with fluff about different pre-pseudo-template origins, but instead they're explicitly doubling down on their boring and uninspiring way to reduce species differences without even pretending they're giving value to their own previous statements.
Except in this case it's a pretty decent fit. These being hybrid type races and all, the "humanoid" that you are is up in the air. Your reborn could be Human, he could be a Dragonborn. Your Dhampir could be an Elf, Dwarf or Halfling.

These types of options would have been difficult to make as any sort of racial option before, they would have had to be a background or feat option.

[Arkhios]

I promise I'll shut up about Tasha's just as soon as WotC admit it was a colossal misstep and throw the entire, ill-conceived idea into the garbage where it belongs.

Custom Lineage and Customizing your Race are OPTIONAL rules. Don't like them? Don't use/allow them. Constant ranting about them will not make them go away, as sad as it might be.

[PhantomSoul]

Custom Lineage and Customizing your Race are OPTIONAL rules. Don't like them? Don't use/allow them. Constant ranting about them will not make them go away, as sad as it might be.

This UA was written without the option of not using them, in practice. It doesn't have an ASI line at all (while not being a template), and they want to make sure you get that it's intentional by putting that decision directly in the into material with explicit reference to Tasha's.

In this UA, it's not framed as an optional rule at all.

[Dr. Cliché]

It's easy to forget that us here on the forums are a small but vocal minority.

{scrubbed}


And if a good number of people enjoy the changes, what does that mean then?

And if a good number of people preferred the old rules, what does that mean then?

{scrubbed}

[ProsecutorGodot]

This UA was written without the option of not using them, in practice. It doesn't have an ASI line at all (while not being a template), and they want to make sure you get that it's intentional by putting that decision directly in the into material with explicit reference to Tasha's.

In this UA, it's not framed as an optional rule at all.

They're called character "options", seems like you're well and truly given the option to steer clear from them if you're not a fan.

[KorvinStarmast]

Don't see why would they be anything else now, though. Because all PCs in 5e - even monstrous and aasimar and tritons - have the humanoid type, until Theros. That's why.

[PhantomSoul]

They're called character "options", seems like you're well and truly given the option to steer clear from them if you're not a fan.

So it's optional because you can also choose to not use any option that comes after they immediately decided to stop supporting their own design while claiming that was an optional rule not the obligatory choice for all upcoming content.

In that way, all of 5e is optional; you're also allowed to not have humans or elves in your world, or say warlocks don't exist.

[Avonar]

You can hate my comments all you want, but kindly keep in mind that I'm not the one who made this a binary choice by refusing to print ASIs for new races following Tasha's Cauldron of Critical Race Theory.

They haven't printed anything yet. They've released one playtest document. Sure, it says they'll be doing it going forward but they haven't yet. Things can always change, you never know.

And so what? If they print a race without mods, just choose ASIs based on your view of the race, or ask the DM to do it. Problem easily solved.

[ProsecutorGodot]

So it's optional because you can also choose to not use any option that comes after they immediately decided to stop supporting their own design while claiming that was an optional rule not the obligatory choice for all upcoming content.

In that way, all of 5e is optional; you're also allowed to not have humans or elves in your world, or say warlocks don't exist.

Yes, it is all optional. The rules are guidelines, your DM can do whatever they want and you only have to use as many splatbooks as you want. You can change anything and everything about the game.

[PhantomSoul]

Yes, it is all optional. The rules are guidelines, your DM can do whatever they want and you only have to use as many splatbooks as you want. You can change anything and everything about the game.

Seems odd to have to homebrew to play published material without using their "optional" rule...

(If this gets published -- {scrubbed})

[Arkhios]

This UA was written without the option of not using them, in practice. It doesn't have an ASI line at all (while not being a template), and they want to make sure you get that it's intentional by putting that decision directly in the into material with explicit reference to Tasha's.

In this UA, it's not framed as an optional rule at all.

Then again, it's not framed as a non-optional rule either. Just because it's not mentioned one way or another doesn't make it any less optional rule.

It can't be repeated enough: if you don't like this, or some other rules option, simply ignore it, and have fun with the rules you actually do like.
Constructive criticism is one thing, but compulsive bashing is something else entirely.

[Dr. Cliché]

Yes, it is all optional. The rules are guidelines, your DM can do whatever they want and you only have to use as many splatbooks as you want. You can change anything and everything about the game.

Which raises the question of why Tasha's was necessary in the first place, as it would be far easier for a group to homebrew ASI's to be floating bonuses, rather than trying to try and assign them to individual races (especially hitherto unknown races).

Hence, it removed rules from those who wanted them whilst bringing absolutely nothing that couldn't have already been accomplished with minor house rules.

{scrubbed}

[Warder]

Yes, it is all optional. The rules are guidelines, your DM can do whatever they want and you only have to use as many splatbooks as you want. You can change anything and everything about the game.

The key difference here is that if you like and want to use Dhampir, Hexblooded or Reborn racial options, you have to use the custom lineage rules as well. There is no option there, which is ridiculous and contrary to both what they said before, and how they've approached 5e design so far. Remember how adamant JC was that nothing would replace what was in the PHB, re: ranger discussions? With this UA, they've explicitely said that the PHB design decisions are invalid going forward.

I get why they're doing it, but this isn't the sort of thing that should happen mid-edition. This is a 5.5e or 6e revision, not something to throw at people who are already heavily invested in 5e, especially when the community is so obviously divided over this issue.

[Warder]

But without it, how would WotC been able to... <snip>

Come on, please don't get this topic locked. :/

I dislike this heavily too (but for obviously different reasons than you do), but that way lies the padlock.

[Avonar]

I get why they're doing it, but this isn't the sort of thing that should happen mid-edition. This is a 5.5e or 6e revision, not something to throw at people who are already heavily invested in 5e, especially when the community is so obviously divided over this issue.

I think this is the crux of the matter: how divisive is it actually?

The problem with getting an idea of the opinions of the oveall D&D community is the number of people that don't go on forums or fill out surveys or whatnot. I don't think it's a contraversial statement that forums and the like do not generally represent the overall fanbase well.

[KorvinStarmast]

The UA included an explicit statement that Tasha's rules are now official for D&D products going forward. They lied. I need to re read that, as I didn't get that 'feel' during the first read through. (But apparently Twitter has exploded over this)

{scrub the post, scrub the quote} Tasha's has some good stuff in it, though, but some of it looks like it needed another scrub before going live (Twilight Cleric in particular, and a few of the magic items. And they did make an effort with Ranger ...) :smalltongue:
I, for one, really like what they did with the magical tattoos even though I gave them a raking over the coals in my feedback on how poorly presented the tattoo UA was.
With regard to the meat of the UA, I normally like options with a gothic flavour but these just feel like an absolute mess. I can only assume that any individuals at WotC with actual talent jumped ship when the company let professionally-offended nutjobs on Twitter dictate the direction of their entire game. OK, sentence 1 I agree with, sentence 2 ... uh, I'll got and get another coffee.

- Hybrid races. No. Just no. It's a terrible idea that breaks all established rules of the system and will lead to all manner of rules conflicts and stuff just plain not making sense. The Dhampir seems like the worst example - I don't care if he's a half-vampire, he's either living or undead. Kindly pick one. Thank you! Said it better than I did.

To me at least, it just doesn't seem particularly well thought-out and there's a clear fracture between the fluff and the mechanics. Aye.

- Hexblood. {snip} It seems like this concept would be better represented with something like the Archfey Warlock or Glamour Bard (and even the race doesn't seem substantially different mechanically from an Elf or maybe a Changeling). Yep.

To be clear, I don't hate the idea of a 'hagspawn'-type race. I just don't think this iteration is mechanically different enough from other races to really justify itself. Feel the same. Interesting idea at its base, not great execution.

- Reborn. An interesting concept, marred by terrible execution. Why is this a dual-type? Hell, one of the possible origins is literally "You were a necromancer’s undead servant for years. One day, your consciousness returned." Okay. So how did you become living (half-living) again? And what exactly is a half-construct? If construct is good enough for a flesh-golem, surely it should be good enough for a PC basically playing as a flesh golem? Yeah. The shredder is over there, needs a clean sheet of paper, start again. And we already have Warforged: This Whole Darned Thing Isn't Necessary! :smalltongue:

As to the hunger for blood things: stirges and vampires are in the MM. We don't need them in the PHB. :smallyuk: The next "creative" move into "how far can we stretch this?" is to establish a cannibal origin for a PC.
Why just take a drink when you can have an entire meal? Plus, you get bones to make soup with afterwards, as I do with the turkey carcass every year after Thanksgiving.

I promise I'll shut up about Tasha's just as soon as WotC admit it was a colossal misstep and throw the entire, ill-conceived idea into the garbage where it belongs. Odds of that happening, if I am gonna take this bet to Vegas, are lower than the odds of Pat Mahomes giving up professional football to enter a monastery.
They have to earn that first. Tasha's didn't earn it, and now they're doubling down on it. They could have just put that it's your choice of ASIs into the ASI line with fluff about different pre-pseudo-template origins, but instead they're explicitly doubling down on their boring and uninspiring way to reduce species differences without even pretending they're giving value to their own previous statements. It's almost as though their ability to 'speak with one voice' has a bunch of non-proficiency penalties (to use an AD&D 2e term)

"we're seeing if we can stop making any effort and/or if we can avoid not seeming woke by not putting ASIs at all". Which means: rewrite the PHB, make D&D 5.5e a thing ... and I really hope that isn't where this is going. I have a lot of 5e books, and it's mostly good content. (But dagnabbit, why didn't they fix Purple Dragon Knight and why didn't they include Arcana Cleric in Tashas? Arrrrrggggghhhhh!
"Comments are good for the Youtube algorithm."
Somebody, somewhere, makes a profit. :smallbiggrin:


Well with all the great discussion they've gotten from Druids "will not wear armor or use shields made of metal", they decided they wanted more of that quality content. Hey, look, the can of worms that got me my first major infraction in a thread. :smalleek: Nope, not touching that one. (My druids will not wear metal armor. The druid I DM for has dragged a pile of chitin from an umber hulk to a dwarven smith. For a tidy sum of gold, that dwarven smith is going to make a breast plate out of that armor: crafting time is six weeks ... meanwhile, he keeps on adventuring ... )

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}. Don't sugar coat it, tell us how you really feel. :smallcool:

And I really do like the tattoos.

[Warder]

I think this is the crux of the matter: how divisive is it actually?

The problem with getting an idea of the opinions of the oveall D&D community is the number of people that don't go on forums or fill out surveys or whatnot. I don't think it's a contraversial statement that forums and the like do not generally represent the overall fanbase well.

I'd agree with that. I think the truth is that the majority probably aren't invested to care one way or the other, but we really have no way of knowing either way. I still think it's a valuable discussion to have, and that each individual has cause to be concerned about the impact of changes like this - in either direction - for just themselves, and their own enjoyment of D&D going forward.

[Amnestic]

The key difference here is that if you like and want to use Dhampir, Hexblooded or Reborn racial options, you have to use the custom lineage rules as well.

I mean, they're explicitly lineages, not 'normal' races, so using lineage rules makes a fair amount of sense?

And man you'd think that variable ASIs had never been in the game prior to Tasha's and definitely not attached to the most popular race in the game since release the way some people are talking about them.

Yeah I'm asserting v.humans are/were the most popular race.
No I'm not going to provide evidence.

[ProsecutorGodot]

The key difference here is that if you like and want to use Dhampir, Hexblooded or Reborn racial options, you have to use the custom lineage rules as well. There is no option there, which is ridiculous and contrary to both what they said before, and how they've approached 5e design so far. Remember how adamant JC was that nothing would replace what was in the PHB, re: ranger discussions? With this UA, they've explicitely said that the PHB design decisions are invalid going forward.
See, that's a much better way of framing it. Apologies for the misunderstandings @PhantomSoul. From this perspective I can see a lot more room to be upset, definitely valid criticism.

I've said before in the thread though, for these options specifically I don't think the previous rules would fit all that well, the new lineage rules do a much better job at reflecting that you are both the humanoid type you were before as well as the now Dhampir/Reborn/Hexblood you have become.

[PhantomSoul]

See, that's a much better way of framing it. Apologies for the misunderstandings @PhantomSoul. From this perspective I can see a lot more room to be upset, definitely valid criticism.

My fault for not being clear enough! (And sometimes clarifying in edits when I realised I wasn't clear enough even by my low standards... Meaning they don't get seen!)

[KorvinStarmast]

Yeah I'm asserting v.humans are/were the most popular race.
No I'm not going to provide evidence. Good thing too, since we are talking about 'an elf game' :smallbiggrin:

[Dr. Cliché]

Tasha's has some good stuff in it, though, but some of it looks like it needed another scrub before going live (Twilight Cleric in particular, and a few of the magic items. And they did make an effort with Ranger ...) :smalltongue:
I, for one, really like what they did with the magical tattoos even though I gave them a raking over the coals in my feedback on how poorly presented the tattoo UA was.

All hyperbole aside, Tasha's certainly wasn't devoid of decent content.

To be honest, though, outside of the tiresome changes to racial mechanics, I found most of the stuff to just be forgettable, rather than outright bad.

There were some exceptions, like the new Summon spells and one or two of the classes, but I just found it to be a decidedly mediocre book overall.




As to the hunger for blood things: stirges and vampires are in the MM. We don't need them in the PHB. :smallyuk: The next "creative" move into "how far can we stretch this?" is to establish a cannibal origin for a PC.
Why just take a drink when you can have an entire meal? Plus, you get bones to make soup with afterwards, as I do with the turkey carcass every year after Thanksgiving.

:smallbiggrin:

You make a good point. I think perhaps part of the issue is the marked tonal shift with classes like these. If nothing else, they seem a little out of place alongside the high-fantasy races and magic-punk golems. :smalltongue:

[Amechra]

I'd agree with that. I think the truth is that the majority probably aren't invested to care one way or the other, but we really have no way of knowing either way. I still think it's a valuable discussion to have, and that each individual has cause to be concerned about the impact of changes like this - in either direction - for just themselves, and their own enjoyment of D&D going forward.

I play with a bunch of people who are in multiple D&D games each weak but don't look at forums. Their attitude seems to be "if it's in a book, it's alright I guess - let's get back to making terrible decisions in-game".

I think "caring strongly about the impact of changes in the rules" or whatever is something that's going to make you transition from being part of the silent majority to being in a vocal minority really quickly.

[KorvinStarmast]

I play with a bunch of people who are in multiple D&D games each weak but don't look at forums. Their attitude seems to be "if it's in a book, it's alright I guess - let's get back to making terrible decisions in-game". *Snort* well played. :smallsmile:


I think "caring strongly about the impact of changes in the rules" or whatever is something that's going to make you transition from being part of the silent majority to being in a vocal minority really quickly. Or migrate to another game system.

[micahaphone]

While I don't think they 100% nailed the execution here, I do like concept of applying this kind of lineage as an "overlay" on top of a regular humanoid race. That's what should've been done for tieflings/aasimar/genasi in the first place. Like sure technically your tiefling could have dwarven or elven parents but by the phb it's not reflected in their stats whatsoever. Why is an infernal-blooded halfling have more move speed than their parents, and why can't they speak halfling, except for tasha's rules?

I know pathfinder / PF 2 does "plane-touched" races that way. I see lots of good ideas out of pathfinder, if only they weren't attached to the rest of the system. :tongue:

[ZRN]

The key difference here is that if you like and want to use Dhampir, Hexblooded or Reborn racial options, you have to use the custom lineage rules as well. There is no option there, which is ridiculous and contrary to both what they said before, and how they've approached 5e design so far. Remember how adamant JC was that nothing would replace what was in the PHB, re: ranger discussions? With this UA, they've explicitely said that the PHB design decisions are invalid going forward.

Well, they're not invalidating any older material by printing NEW material that doesn't match the same standards as their older stuff. In fact, you could imagine that even without Tasha's, these three specific races might have been printed with wide-open ability score and language options, just like the PHB variant human, because these specific races (or "lineages" or whatever) all started as something else. It makes sense that e.g. a former half-orc who gets turned into a dhampir (or hexblood or reborn) will have a statline similar to his original race, as would a former gnome.

[rlc]

Because all PCs in 5e - even monstrous and aasimar and tritons - have the humanoid type, until Theros. That's why.

Centaurs.
But I agree that Warforged should get an errata on their type.

[KorvinStarmast]

Centaurs.
But I agree that Warforged should get an errata on their type. Right; from Theros also. :smalltongue:

[Dragonsonthemap]

Right; from Theros also. :smalltongue:

Centaurs were in Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica originally, and then reprinted in MoT.

[diplomancer]

I mean, they're explicitly lineages, not 'normal' races, so using lineage rules makes a fair amount of sense?

And man you'd think that variable ASIs had never been in the game prior to Tasha's and definitely not attached to the most popular race in the game since release the way some people are talking about them.

Yeah I'm asserting v.humans are/were the most popular race.
No I'm not going to provide evidence.

There is a big design difference between 1, or even a few, races having variable ASIs (even as a marker of their identity, "these races are naturally very versatile"), and every single race having them, which, if the design notes from this UA pan out, will be the NORM from now on.

I feel it sounds like I'm pleading here to our Wizards of the Coast overlords but couldn't we even have something like "suggested ASI's" for different races?

[KorvinStarmast]

Centaurs were in Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica originally, and then reprinted in MoT. Since I do not accept Ravnica at my table (I have no use for it) I suppose I have a blind spot there. :smalltongue: It's a matter of taste, I suppose, but the leaking of MtG into D&D disappoints me (I totally understand the corporate reason to cross the streams/merge the product lines)

[Amechra]

The simple solution to the ASI thing would be to just keep whatever ASIs your original race gave you, just like how you keep the original languages.

[king_steve]

The simple solution to the ASI thing would be to just keep whatever ASIs your original race gave you, just like how you keep the original languages.

I agree with this, it says you only need to use the Tashas rules if your using the Lineage at character creation but you can simply create your base character first (using some other existing race) and then apply the Lineage after.

[ProsecutorGodot]

The simple solution to the ASI thing would be to just keep whatever ASIs your original race gave you, just like how you keep the original languages.

I agree with this, it says you only need to use the Tashas rules if your using the Lineage at character creation but you can simply create your base character first (using some other existing race) and then apply the Lineage after.


Unfortunately the UA doesn't universally support that option, you have to replace your ASI with the lineages +2/+1 option which doesn't work for some races. This includes if you are converted post character creation.

[Arkhios]

Since I do not accept Ravnica at my table (I have no use for it) I suppose I have a blind spot there. :smalltongue: It's a matter of taste, I suppose, but the leaking of MtG into D&D disappoints me (I totally understand the corporate reason to cross the streams/merge the product lines)

Y'know, it might actually be MtG settings' specialty, to have creature types such as fey for PC's.

Personally, I have nothing against accepting MtG universe as part of the greater D&D multiverse; that doesn't mean, however, that I would let players freely choose races indigenous to a setting and play one in another setting, unless the whole campaign is about traveling the multiverse between multiple universes. In other words, races such as those from Ravnica or Theros are very unlikely to be allowed in for example Forgotten Realms or Eberron, and vice versa. They each have their own lists of available races, so use them.

As of the contents of this UA, it seems clear that the team is trying to expand on something new and inspiring (the Custom Lineage). And that's perfectly fine. Let them try things out, see how it's received. It might just as well be judged unworthy of the effort and forgotten. You remember how many iterations artificer went through? Or psionics?

Heck, do you remember the Modern Magic UA? Haven't heard much of that concept since.

They try out new things with UA. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. Regardless of the results, you're still free to ignore or embrace anything they come up with. No need to allow everything.

[Tanarii]

I promise I'll shut up about Tasha's just as soon as WotC admit it was a colossal misstep and throw the entire, ill-conceived idea into the garbage where it belongs.
Going by WotCs track record, when they shoot themselves in the foot half way through an edition, they just double down even harder.

Although usually the initial foot shooting is cause by declining sales, not by a moral panic.

[Scots Dragon]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

With regard to the meat of the UA, I normally like options with a gothic flavour but these just feel like an absolute mess. {scrub the post, scrub the quote} :smallyuk:

Feels like you're the one who's offended here.

[FinalDuck]

Yeah, I'd agree that the amnesia thing missed the mark in terms of what people would actually play this race for.

The amnesia thing is exactly what I want to play this race for. Bourne Identity, Cowboys and Aliens, Generator Rex are great works of fiction that use this trope.

Also, means you start the first session with no baggage that makes it hard to work with other characters (like being rival factions); your DM can tie your backstory into whatever plot hooks they like without you being to overpowered or over important when you’re too low level for it to make sense.

[king_steve]

I saw someone else mention the Hollowed One Supernatural Gift from Explorers Guide to Wildemount. Instead of giving you dual types it gives you:



Revenance. You retain your creature type, yet you register as undead to spells and other effects that detect the presence of the undead creature type.


Do you think that type of effect would be better than having a dual type?

[Dr. Cliché]

Feels like you're the one who's offended here.

{scrubbed}

[Scots Dragon]

{scrub the post, scrub the quote}

This is literally only one source that uses the Tasha's material, and does so in a way that makes sense given that these are all meant to derive from other cultural backgrounds anyway in addition to being dhampirs or hagspawn. Why is that such an issue?

Nobody's going around and tearing out early chapters of your Player's Handbook and forcing you to use Tasha's Cauldron of Everything now.

[MaxWilson]

Then again, it's not framed as a non-optional rule either. Just because it's not mentioned one way or another doesn't make it any less optional rule.

It can't be repeated enough: if you don't like this, or some other rules option, simply ignore it, and have fun with the rules you actually do like.
Constructive criticism is one thing, but compulsive bashing is something else entirely.

One could say the same thing about compulsive arguing with those who bash Tasha's: if you don't agree with it, just ignore the post. You're not forced to engage with it.

IMO there should be two 5E forums now: Tasha's and non-Tasha's.

[Tanarii]

This is literally only one source that uses the Tasha's material, and does so in a way that makes sense given that these are all meant to derive from other cultural backgrounds anyway in addition to being dhampirs or hagspawn. Why is that such an issue?

Nobody's going around and tearing out early chapters of your Player's Handbook and forcing you to use Tasha's Cauldron of Everything now.

From the UA:
Following in that book’s footsteps, the race options in this article and in future D&D books lack the Ability Score Increase trait, the Language trait, the Alignment trait, and any other trait that is purely cultural. Racial traits henceforth reflect only the physical or magical realities of being a player character who’s a member of a particular lineage.

It's now official policy for all D&D upcoming material. I already know how I'm going to handle that, and I'll make it clear in my responses to this article. Because they never gave a chance to give feedback in the case of Tasha's Trash.

[P. G. Macer]

This is literally only one source that uses the Tasha's material, and does so in a way that makes sense given that these are all meant to derive from other cultural backgrounds anyway in addition to being dhampirs or hagspawn. Why is that such an issue?

Nobody's going around and tearing out early chapters of your Player's Handbook and forcing you to use Tasha's Cauldron of Everything now.

To quote the blurb from the UA PDF,


Following in that book’s footsteps, the race options in this article and in future D&D books lack the Ability Score Increase trait, the Language trait, the Alignment trait…
(Emphasis mine)

So even if freeform Ability Score Increases are appropriate for the lineages represented here, Wizards of the Coast currently plans to apply the allegedly “optional” Tasha’s rules to all future 5e races. If they do this going forward, then said rules are optional only in the sense that if you don’t want to use them, you are barred from using post-TCoE races as-written entirely. A non-AL DM could always try and unilaterally assign specific ASI combinations to the new races, e.g. a Hexblood always gains +2 INT and +1 CHA, but players seem likely to mutiny at that. Besides, while not quite fitting in the definition of the Oberoni Fallacy as I understand it, it does have a sniff of it and seems to derive from similar thinking.

Additionally, the new rules may be applied to races that it won’t make sense for them to apply to. I know the UA states that ASIs are now cultural, but that’s a retcon (or, if you’re being less generous, lie) if I ever saw one. Sure, some of them are cultural, like githzerai’s boost to wisdom, but when it comes to say, PHB dragonborn, I’m more doubtful.

[PhantomSoul]

Additionally, the new rules may be applied to races that it won’t make sense for them to apply to. I know the UA states that ASIs are now cultural, but that’s a retcon (or, if you’re being less generous, lie) if I ever saw one. Sure, some of them are cultural, like githzerai’s boost to wisdom, but when it comes to say, PHB dragonborn, I’m more doubtful.

And even for the gith-x boosts, it seems quite reasonably biological; they were bred by illithids for target capabilities (prior to the split into githyanki and githzerai, but that split may not even have caused this trait since they could have split along lines related to their breeding).

And if it's really about culture/training, odd how it isn't being put into temporarily "optional" backgrounds!

[MaxWilson]

From the UA:
Following in that book’s footsteps, the race options in this article and in future D&D books lack the Ability Score Increase trait, the Language trait, the Alignment trait, and any other trait that is purely cultural. Racial traits henceforth reflect only the physical or magical realities of being a player character who’s a member of a particular lineage.

It's now official policy for all D&D upcoming material. I already know how I'm going to handle that, and I'll make it clear in my responses to this article. Because they never gave a chance to give feedback in the case of Tasha's Trash.

Ironic that Orcish +2 to Str and +1 to Con is apparently considered more "purely cultural" than Aggressive.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Ironic that Orcish +2 to Str and +1 to Con is apparently considered more "purely cultural" than Aggressive.

Yeah. They're naturally aggressive, but all orc PCs are bodybuilders for some weird reason.

This all gives me even more impetus for my total racial overhaul. I won't be able to use any new races as is, and the old ones need fixing up (not only because there's a lot that aren't SRD).

[Dark.Revenant]

The amnesia thing is exactly what I want to play this race for. Bourne Identity, Cowboys and Aliens, Generator Rex are great works of fiction that use this trope.

Also, means you start the first session with no baggage that makes it hard to work with other characters (like being rival factions); your DM can tie your backstory into whatever plot hooks they like without you being to overpowered or over important when you’re too low level for it to make sense.

I feel that the amnesia thing should be distinct from the “you’re undead or a robot” thing.

[PhantomSoul]

This all gives me even more impetus for my total racial overhaul. I won't be able to use any new races as is, and the old ones need fixing up (not only because there's a lot that aren't SRD).

At least something good would come out of this!

[PhoenixPhyre]

At least something good would come out of this!

Yes, although the warthog kneels[1] really heavily, what with two ongoing campaigns and a 8-5 job.

[1] cross-forum in-joke meaning roughly "that would be too much work"


I feel that the amnesia thing should be distinct from the “you’re undead or a robot” thing.

Heck, I've got a player character right now with amnesia. Aasimar. And that's both out of character and in-character. He's letting me basically choose his entire backstory and drop it in drop by drop as the campaign goes on. And it's great, if you have trust and a good world to build on.

You could do it with any character race, really. It's more a background trait than a cultural trait (let alone a biological trait).

[PhantomSoul]

Yes, although the warthog kneels[1] really heavily, what with two ongoing campaigns and a 8-5 job.

[1] cross-forum in-joke meaning roughly "that would be too much work"

I get it, I've got a draft concept that I don't actually believe will ever exist in a final form!

[PhoenixPhyre]

I get it, I've got a draft concept that I don't actually believe will ever exist in a final form!

I think at this point I might have more draft concepts than I do real implemented homebrew concepts (other than one-off monsters and items).

I've got a partial one for races (not even the one I'm talking about here, more a half-measure), one for spell lists (almost completely removing all class-based lists in favor of thematic ones), one that moves most spells into ritual-like things, and a bunch of other stuff. All needs heavy testing and editing before it can go anywhere, but I'm a forever DM, so...

[KorvinStarmast]

Although usually the initial foot shooting is cause by declining sales, not by a moral panic. That got me laughing.
All needs heavy testing and editing before it can go anywhere, but I'm a forever DM, so... I went through that for years in AD&D 1e years. We need to find a game where we can as players, eh? That could be some fun. :smallbiggrin:

[PhantomSoul]

I think at this point I might have more draft concepts than I do real implemented homebrew concepts (other than one-off monsters and items).

That's how you know you're a true DM! =D
(And really, things are usable once they're complete enough for play[testing] for something like races; since only a handful of races will be used at a time, you functionally don't need it to be completely finished for each race.)



I've got a partial one for races (not even the one I'm talking about here, more a half-measure), one for spell lists (almost completely removing all class-based lists in favor of thematic ones), one that moves most spells into ritual-like things, and a bunch of other stuff. All needs heavy testing and editing before it can go anywhere, but I'm a forever DM, so...

That thematic list option or a ritual-inspired system (probably with chance of failure) is what I'd love to see for Sorcerers especially (merging threads).

---

Anyhow, to touch on the Unearthed Arcana, it's pretty tough to be hopeful. The things that can work even as a newly introduced system/ruleset/variant (like second types, which I've played with in actual games) just aren't done in a way that makes it seem coherent and desirable. And these lineages at best seem like they maybe should be framed as templates not races given how much of it is described (and how often introducing their base concepts during a campaign due to a curse or a botched revivification seem more interesting).

[PhoenixPhyre]

We need to find a game where we can as players, eh? That could be some fun. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah. Although a lot of my racial overhaul stuff is very world-driven, so doing that in someone else's world would be a bit strange. Doable, just odd. A lot of the class/spell stuff is more cross-world.

I see races as being the most tied in to the world itself. Much more so than classes (which aren't actually always things in world--a wizard doesn't necessarily walk around with a hat with WIZZARD on it, nor does a barbarian identify as a barbarian), spells, feats, or any of the other player-option things.

That's a large part of why I take so poorly to the Tasha's changes being more than just advice for DMs who want to make more customized races. Races belong to the world, and the world and the races have to agree well. For example, you'll never find a stock drow in my world. I highly dislike the race. There are the goroesi, the dark elves. But other than the fact that they're dark-skinned and several of their populations are underground, they're basically nothing alike. And gnomes were rightfully genocided about 250 years ago :smalltongue: [1]

[1] not really, but it's traditional to exclaim Gno Gnomes!


That's how you know you're a true DM! =D
(And really, things are usable once they're complete enough for play[testing] for something like races; since only a handful of races will be used at a time, you functionally don't need it to be completely finished for each race.)



That thematic list option or a ritual-inspired system (probably with chance of failure) is what I'd love to see for Sorcerers especially (merging threads).

---

Anyhow, to touch on the Unearthed Arcana, it's pretty tough to be hopeful. The things that can work even as a newly introduced system/ruleset/variant (like second types, which I've played with in actual games) just aren't done in a way that makes it seem coherent and desirable. And these lineages at best seem like they maybe should be framed as templates not races given how much of it is described (and how often introducing their base concepts during a campaign due to a curse or a botched revivification seem more interesting).

Yeah. As for the full overhaul, I'm only at the basic framework stage.

Thematic stuff...well...that's another ball of mud. A draft can be seen at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1AU6QqpZOSi8nrnBytp21wQmg3Ref2zI6Zu_pecVrKwE/edit?usp=sharing, but it's an untested (except for NPC inspiration) draft.

Rituals--my idea was to take a page out of 4e and move almost all spells that didn't need to be cast quickly (ie most non-combat ones) and pull them out of spells entirely. Instead they're incantations, which anyone can learn and use (costing time and expensive components, plus having to find and learn them). Casting classes get boons that let them do certain ones faster/cheaper/better--basically the reverse of Ritual Caster. Being able to trade spell slots for faster casting, instead of trading slower casting for not spending spell slots. Etc. The idea is to break the full-caster monopoly on utility magic, while still giving them a reason to be. Even rougher draft: https://docs.google.com/document/d/18BwA_2ZVFezeVr7DaCrmSEvHE3DMsUHYsHoY8ADqnL8/edit?usp=sharing

And as far as doing the races with templates, I could see that. Building racial templates for adding on later (or even at character creation). Or an easy way to represent "raise dead gone wrong" or "touched by an angel/devil/fey and transformed". But that would require more than just "here's a new race!"

[PhantomSoul]

I see races as being the most tied in to the world itself.

Agreed!


Much more so than classes (which aren't actually always things in world--a wizard doesn't necessarily walk around with a hat with WIZZARD on it, nor does a barbarian identify as a barbarian), spells, feats, or any of the other player-option things.


Yeah, I take pleasure in describing anyone studying as a wizard in-world (regardless of class), or saying "mage"/"arcanist" as a broader category. Being called a warlock doesn't guarantee they've made a pact, and being called a sorcerer doesn't guarantee they haven't. Fighter is often just a person who fights; the rogue may be a thief and a fighter.



And gnomes were rightfully genocided about 250 years ago :smalltongue: [1]

[1] not really, but it's traditional to exclaim Gno Gnomes!

Don't worry, thanks to recent advances in g-nomics they've been cloned and are reemerging into society!
(Jokes aside, gnomes actually were created by elves in the last great age of magic millenia ago in my world; the elves got some of the basics from discoveries about how the giants had given life to the rocks [creating dwarves] when the giants were once a major force in the world.)



(Homebrew)

I'm eager to give this a look -- and I'm intrigued by reversing the default to ritual magic. I like that idea and am curious to see how it plays out.

[KorvinStarmast]

And gnomes were rightfully genocided about 250 years ago :smalltongue: [1]

[1] not really, but it's traditional to exclaim Gno Gnomes! First they came for the gnomes, and I said nothing, because I was speechless with joy ... :smallbiggrin: (I say this with love because I did play a gnome illusionist in AD&D 1e. He was named after a mushroom ...)

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Re-opened.

[Damon_Tor]

Ironic that Orcish +2 to Str and +1 to Con is apparently considered more "purely cultural" than Aggressive.

Or kobolds' Groveling, Cowering and Begging. Apparently tiny 30 pound lizard people have exactly the same capacity for physical strength as 400 pound elephant people, but their pathetic, sniveling cowardice is hard-wired, coded in their DNA.

[Sception]

I don't get the hate for floating ability scores, at least not on these 'lineages' specifically. Even without Tasha's, these concepts should still have floating modifiers and non-fixed languages, because they *aren't* races. They don't have cultures or customs or communities. A Damphyr could be a dwarf damphyr or a dragonborn damphyr or an elf Damphyr, and floating stats mods and languages let you do that.

Anyway, I don't really see anything terribly OP here, myself. Honestly, rather to the contrary. Even hex once per day, a variant human can grab that via a 'magic initiate' bonus feat without breaking the game. In nearly all campaigns, not needing to eat or breathe is a ribbon at best.


And the adventure time reference is fun and I like it. AT, especially in the early seasons, drew from a bunch of D&D tropes, and IME the show's popularity helped bring a lot of fresh blood into the game, so some overt nods to it are welcome. Even, imo, in darker themed content like this. Spooky doesn't have to mean super serious or non-child-friendly, quite the contrary honestly.


People need to relax and have some fun.

[Sception]

Or kobolds' Groveling, Cowering and Begging. Apparently tiny 30 pound lizard people have exactly the same capacity for physical strength as 400 pound elephant people.

Apart from that they literally don't, even with Tasha's? They can't wield as big weapons, they can't lift or carry nearly as heavy weights. Strength Score is a game number, it's not the same as in universe physical strength, which is conveyed by many other mechanics than a single modifier.

[J-H]

I don't get the hate for floating ability scores, at least not on these 'lineages' specifically. Even without Tasha's, these concepts should still have floating modifiers and non-fixed languages, because they *aren't* races. They don't have cultures or customs or communities. A Damphyr could be a dwarf damphyr or a dragonborn damphyr or an elf Damphyr, and floating stats mods and languages let you do that.


Yep, I don't have a problem with floating ability scores on this one.
I do when they say that future publications are following the Tasha's optional (and bad) rules. Tasha's was a badly-done, poorly-thought out patch job done for reasons not related to game quality, playability, and fun.

[Damon_Tor]

I don't get the hate for floating ability scores, at least not on these 'lineages' specifically. Even without Tasha's, these concepts should still have floating modifiers and non-fixed languages, because they *aren't* races. They don't have cultures or customs or communities. A Damphyr could be a dwarf damphyr or a dragonborn damphyr or an elf Damphyr, and floating stats mods and languages let you do that.

If they had just given them all floating ability bonuses I don't think anybody would have given them any **** about it. The problem is, they said "this is how this is going to be moving forward". It means that if they release their Dark Sun supplement, for example, Thri-Kreen will have floating ability scores because the only way a species of alien insectoids might be stronger, tougher or faster than a human is because of their culture.

[Amnestic]

because the only way a species of alien insectoids might be stronger, tougher or faster than a human is because of their culture.

idk I've beaten up a ton of insects in my time really easily, seems like if they wanna be better then they might need to start lifting yeah.

[PhantomSoul]

As others have said (throughout the thread), using floating bonuses makes sense for (some of) this UA, but that's not how they did it in the UA and they explicit say in the UA that they will only support a bad rule that they just claimed is "optional" in upcoming publications.


idk I've beaten up a ton of insects in my time really easily, seems like if they wanna be better then they might need to start lifting yeah.


You squishing the insect so easily was just because the insect didn't get to benefit from the teachings of our modern society!

[Damon_Tor]

You squishing the insect so easily was just because the insect didn't get to benefit from the teachings of our modern society!

Are you suggesting vertibrate "culture" is superior to the deep, soulful culture created by species of chitin? Because that, sir, makes you a bigot. The only reason chitinous individuals are more likely to be crushed by vertibrates is due entirely to implicit bias and generational privilege.

[P. G. Macer]

I don't get the hate for floating ability scores, at least not on these 'lineages' specifically. Even without Tasha's, these concepts should still have floating modifiers and non-fixed languages, because they *aren't* races. They don't have cultures or customs or communities. A Damphyr could be a dwarf damphyr or a dragonborn damphyr or an elf Damphyr, and floating stats mods and languages let you do that.

Anyway, I don't really see anything terribly OP here, myself. Honestly, rather to the contrary. Even hex once per day, a variant human can grab that via a 'magic initiate' bonus feat without breaking the game. In nearly all campaigns, not needing to eat or breathe is a ribbon at best.


And the adventure time reference is fun and I like it. AT, especially in the early seasons, drew from a bunch of D&D tropes, and IME the show's popularity helped bring a lot of fresh blood into the game, so some overt nods to it are welcome. Even, imo, in darker themed content like this. Spooky doesn't have to mean super serious or non-child-friendly, quite the contrary honestly.


People need to relax and have some fun.

The Hexblood’s ability to use Hex isn’t once per day, it’s for free once per day, after that they can still use spell slots to cast it, so in effect, unlike most examples of racial spell casting, it and Disguise Self are effectively added to spells known. Magic Initiate (Warlock), meanwhile, only allows the casting of Hex once unless you are already a warlock (according to Sage Advice).

[king_steve]

The Hexblood’s ability to use Hex isn’t once per day, it’s for free once per day, after that they can still use spell slots to cast it, so in effect, unlike most examples of racial spell casting, it and Disguise Self are effectively added to spells known. Magic Initiate (Warlock), meanwhile, only allows the casting of Hex once unless you are already a warlock (according to Sage Advice).

Fey Touched also lets you learn the spell with any casting modifier with a free casting once per day.

I personally think that the Hexblood feature should be pulled back to just one casting per long rest. Maybe one per short rest, but honestly, once per long rest feels okay to me. Some existing races like the Firbolg can cast their spells once per short rest, but most of the time it's only once per long rest.

[FinalDuck]

I feel that the amnesia thing should be distinct from the “you’re undead or a robot” thing.

Well that’s because it’s Frankenstein inspired.

But there’s also the fact that construct doesn’t necessarily mean Robot. I would consider Agent 47, Wolverine after the Weapon X Program, and Black Widow to be Humanoid/Construct Reborn because they have been fashioned into a weapon by shady government programs.

In a similar way I would consider Jake Lonergan from Cowboys and Aliens, Batman, and Moon Knight to be Humanoid/Undead Reborn because they had an event where their old selves died and what’s left can be considered a whole new person, just with mostly the same body.

Sorry if I seem over-defensive of the Reborn, but it seems as if it was written with specifically me in mind. I read the initial description and it had my whole attention; every line after that got an increasingly loud “Hell Yeah” from me.

[Luccan]

Well that’s because it’s Frankenstein inspired.

But there’s also the fact that construct doesn’t necessarily mean Robot. I would consider Agent 47, Wolverine after the Weapon X Program, and Black Widow to be Humanoid/Construct Reborn because they have been fashioned into a weapon by shady government programs.

In a similar way I would consider Jake Lonergan from Cowboys and Aliens, Batman, and Moon Knight to be Humanoid/Undead Reborn because they had an event where their old selves died and what’s left can be considered a whole new person, just with mostly the same body.

Sorry if I seem over-defensive of the Reborn, but it seems as if it was written with specifically me in mind. I read the initial description and it had my whole attention; every line after that got an increasingly loud “Hell Yeah” from me.

I'll agree with you here, in that I think making it part of the Reborn isn't wrong. But I think the main point is nothing actually prevented anyone from playing an amnesiac before, so it's a weird thing to claim that this suddenly "lets" you.

[da newt]

BTW - what is the method for providing feedback to the WotC folks on these sorts of things? How do we make our opinions actionable?

[Warder]

BTW - what is the method for providing feedback to the WotC folks on these sorts of things? How do we make our opinions actionable?

The only feedback system WotC has in place is actually for these UAs. A while - usually about a month or so - after they post an UA they'll put up a survey for it. There'll be opportunities to comment on and rate each feature in the UA, as well as provide general feedback.

I really wish there'd be more ways of providing general D&D feedback.

[ProsecutorGodot]

The only feedback system WotC has in place is actually for these UAs. A while - usually about a month or so - after they post an UA they'll put up a survey for it. There'll be opportunities to comment on and rate each feature in the UA, as well as provide general feedback.

I really wish there'd be more ways of providing general D&D feedback.

You could always tweet the writers of the UA. It's not a great method, but it is open and we do know that at least some of then do read and respond on Twitter.

[Amnestic]

https://www.reddit.com/r/dndnext/comments/l8q71a/ua_gothic_lineages_survey/

Survey up already? Couldn't see a link on the main D&D website though.