Item Levels, Yay or Nay?

[Destro2119]

So recently I was toying around with the notion of merging Pathfinder and Pathfinder 2e together to create a homebrew system, and I have run into a rut with the concept of item levels.

Do you feel as if they should be implemented into a campaign? From personal experience, they are really handy when it comes to calculating craft DCs, durations of effects and DCs to break/influence things, but are really bad for immersion (Item level tying directly into actual character level means that low level people will never be able to meaningfully harm even a naked high level character, also how a level 20 wizard who has never gotten into a fistfight in his life is just as hard to tumble past as a level 20 fighter who might not have specialized in such maneuvers but still spent his life fighting) and always wind up serving to do little more than pad out lists of near identical statistics.

Specifically, I think skills works pretty well as-is in 1e, but it is the gear that confounds me. Like reconciling the antitoxin/antiplague scaling, for example in 1e the level 20 antiplague in 2e, converting economies, would be completely overshadowed by some permanent magic item or staff or wand that does everything it does and is usable far more times.

Essentially, I want to combine the best parts of both worlds into a single system. How would you accomplish this?

[Xervous]

What precisely is meant by item level here? What exact benefits are you looking at? What exact downsides are you perceiving?

There’s the matter of what i would do, but I don’t know your exact goals so my intentions may not line up.

Naked L20 vs L1s is divorced from items, that’s baseline system functionality.

[StSword]

What precisely is meant by item level here? What exact benefits are you looking at? What exact downsides are you perceiving?

There’s the matter of what i would do, but I don’t know your exact goals so my intentions may not line up.

Naked L20 vs L1s is divorced from items, that’s baseline system functionality.

Pathfinder 2 has item levels.

As in items have minimum level requirements before your character is allowed to get their grubby hands on them.

It's basically the same thing as wealth by level, a rule to make sure characters aren't walking all over their foes thanks to being overgeared.

So it makes sense, mechanically, but in world building it does odd stuff setting wise.

[AnimeTheCat]

So it makes sense, mechanically, but in world building it does odd stuff setting wise.

If you're building your world somewhat from scratch, you can tie in some fluff mechanic like the Weave from Forgotten Realms or Midicholrians (I know I'm spelling that wrong) from Star Wars. Basically some magical influence that ties ever entity together, from sticks and stones to deities. Then, because items are infused with that essence, the character can only meaningfully tap in to that essence in one of two ways;
1) they get the grand version of the item right away, but it costs money to gradually perform the rituals to bind themselves and open their [insert fluffy thingo] to the [insert fluffy thingo] of the item, and they can only do so if they are strong enough to do it, or
2) They find more powerful versions and can just use them as they find them, if they are high enough level for their [fluffy thingo] to be able to support the power from the item's [insert fluffy thingo].

[Destro2119]

Pathfinder 2 has item levels.

As in items have minimum level requirements before your character is allowed to get their grubby hands on them.

It's basically the same thing as wealth by level, a rule to make sure characters aren't walking all over their foes thanks to being overgeared.

So it makes sense, mechanically, but in world building it does odd stuff setting wise.

So how would it jibe with 1e's mechanics? Would you like it or no? Would it improve it or not?

[StSword]

So how would it jibe with 1e's mechanics? Would you like it or no? Would it improve it or not?

I'm not really the one to ask, I took one look at PF2 and decided to stick with PF1.

I have also heard of problems with things like characters being undergeared because they've leveled but in game they hadn't gotten the opportunity to upgrade their gear, leaving them screwed when fighting opponents of their level.

Maybe combine items level with a system like Complete Gear (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/complete-gear)?

[Psyren]

Item levels serve a similar purpose to the old 3.5/PF1 guideline that "you can spend no more than X% of your wealth on a single {item.}" They're a way of fostering design consistency across game groups with similar character levels and wealth.

The levels have additional uses in terms of making some calculations, like how hard it is to break an item or to resist its magical effects, easier and faster to pick up as well. So overall you could say I'm a fan. I do hear you on the "immersion" aspect though, translating those levels into in-universe terms can be challenge.

[Destro2119]

Item levels serve a similar purpose to the old 3.5/PF1 guideline that "you can spend no more than X% of your wealth on a single {item.}" They're a way of fostering design consistency across game groups with similar character levels and wealth.

The levels have additional uses in terms of making some calculations, like how hard it is to break an item or to resist its magical effects, easier and faster to pick up as well. So overall you could say I'm a fan. I do hear you on the "immersion" aspect though, translating those levels into in-universe terms can be challenge.

Yeah, but the real problem comes in when there are mundane items like max level antiplague that cost so much that you realize it would be more efficient (in 1e) to make an item that does basically the same thing but with FAR more uses.

[Destro2119]

I'm not really the one to ask, I took one look at PF2 and decided to stick with PF1.

I have also heard of problems with things like characters being undergeared because they've leveled but in game they hadn't gotten the opportunity to upgrade their gear, leaving them screwed when fighting opponents of their level.

Maybe combine items level with a system like Complete Gear (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/complete-gear)?

May I ask, what exactly do you dislike about PF2E?

[Elves]

That would be sad. Then you lose the fun of an encounter with a low level but ultra wealthy villain who's bought himself all the best gear.

Look, what problem does it solve? In tabletop there's a referee to control wealth and treasure acquisition by players so these hard limits aren't necessary like they are in videogames. SCaling items like Weapons of Lehacy are a better model.

[Psyren]

Yeah, but the real problem comes in when there are mundane items like level 20 antiplague that cost so much that you realize it would be more efficient (in 1e) to make an item that does basically the same thing but with FAR more uses.

I agree that mundane items shouldn't have high levels. Magic, alchemy or technology should be required to get items above a certain level.

I don't know how P2 does it, I don't play that. I play Starfinder which uses them, but the items it's used for are technological so it makes sense. (See Mass Effect 1 as an example)

[StSword]

May I ask, what exactly do you dislike about PF2E?

The appeal to pathfinder to me was the vast library of work made over the years by creative people.

If I had wanted to learn a new system, I'd have been a dnd5 player and wouldn't care about pathfinder in the first place.

In fact, all things being equal, between the two, if I do take the plunge into a new (for me) game system, it'd be dnd 5th edition.

Because there is more stuff out for 5e, especially when you factor in how much PF2 stuff is in fact just rehashes of stuff I bought for PF1.

So I really wasn't the target audience for PF2 to begin with.

[Xervous]

The main thing worth salvaging from PF2e is degree of success on spells and X or Y racial bumps if that tickles your pickle.

Item level is great for DCs and other stuff that is expected to scale linearly. Cost and availability are not that, you need more parameters to place the relative value of items with any semblance of consistency.

[Destro2119]

I think my solution will probably just to assign item levels according to CL for magic items/the price of items, but get rid of the whole "you can only craft/have this if you ARE at x level" thing and just make it basically a unit of measurement.